1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,400 S1: Hi, it's Samantha Selinger Morris here. And I'm the host 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,680 S1: of the Morning Edition. We're bringing you the best episodes 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,960 S1: of 2025 before your Morning Edition team returns mid January. 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,440 S1: Today we return to an episode recorded in October with 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,480 S1: senior columnist Jacqueline Maley, when more torrid tales emerged of 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,240 S1: the former Prince Andrew Manhattan Windsor and his connection to 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:27,680 S1: sex offender and disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein. When this was recorded, 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,960 S1: the royal had just been stripped of his Duke of 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,440 S1: York and Prince titles. British MPs have since announced a 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,760 S1: parliamentary inquiry into the Crown Estate, after revelations that the 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,879 S1: former prince had not paid rent on his mansion for 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,519 S1: more than 20 years. Jack, welcome to the Morning Edition. 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,880 S1: I'm so excited to have you here. I'm obsessed with 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,839 S1: with me. Oh, I am, you know, I'm obsessed with you. 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,480 S1: I can let listeners know about that. I'll tell you 16 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,880 S1: that in the hallways, but in particular about Prince Andrew. Yeah, 17 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:00,240 S1: it's such an interesting story. 18 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,730 S2: It's such an interesting story and it spans so many 19 00:01:02,730 --> 00:01:05,289 S2: different areas of public life and so many different areas 20 00:01:05,290 --> 00:01:08,050 S2: of our culture. And it brings up so many questions about, 21 00:01:08,410 --> 00:01:13,250 S2: you know, the structures of the royalty, the monarchy, society, 22 00:01:13,290 --> 00:01:15,449 S2: you know, the enabling of abuse. It is a really, 23 00:01:15,490 --> 00:01:16,929 S2: actually really fascinating story. 24 00:01:16,970 --> 00:01:19,370 S1: It is and it's global. So I guess let's get 25 00:01:19,370 --> 00:01:21,490 S1: into it. Well, let's start at the beginning. Why are 26 00:01:21,490 --> 00:01:24,649 S1: we even talking about Prince Andrew? He's dominated the news 27 00:01:24,650 --> 00:01:27,850 S1: cycle over the last couple of weeks. So why? Yeah. 28 00:01:27,850 --> 00:01:29,730 S1: Why has this scandal, the one that just, you know. 29 00:01:29,770 --> 00:01:32,650 S2: It's fascinating how these things come about, because news can 30 00:01:32,650 --> 00:01:35,490 S2: be quite random in a way. Um, but the timing, 31 00:01:35,530 --> 00:01:39,010 S2: you know, we've known about the association between Jeffrey Epstein, 32 00:01:39,050 --> 00:01:43,449 S2: the notorious pedophile and sex trafficker, and Prince Andrew, you know, 33 00:01:43,490 --> 00:01:46,450 S2: the king's brother for a long time. You know, since 34 00:01:46,490 --> 00:01:48,250 S2: I think it was it first came to light in 35 00:01:48,290 --> 00:01:52,290 S2: sort of like 20, 20, ten, 2011, when that photograph, 36 00:01:52,290 --> 00:01:55,130 S2: that notorious photograph was made public by one of his 37 00:01:55,130 --> 00:01:58,850 S2: alleged victims, Virginia Giuffre. So the reason we're talking about 38 00:01:58,850 --> 00:02:01,620 S2: it now is that Virginia Giuffre, who tragically died of 39 00:02:01,620 --> 00:02:05,059 S2: suicide earlier this year in West Australia, where she'd come 40 00:02:05,060 --> 00:02:08,380 S2: to sort of build a quiet family life. There's a 41 00:02:08,380 --> 00:02:11,380 S2: memoir that she wrote that has been published posthumously. 42 00:02:11,419 --> 00:02:14,780 S3: One of the most prominent Jeffrey Epstein accusers telling her 43 00:02:14,780 --> 00:02:18,180 S3: story in her own words months after her death. 44 00:02:18,180 --> 00:02:23,900 S4: It's been described as Prince Andrew's endgame. Virginia Giuffre's posthumous memoir, 45 00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:28,620 S4: revealing more shocking details about their alleged sexual encounters. 46 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:31,620 S2: The royal and on top of that, a few months ago, 47 00:02:31,780 --> 00:02:37,380 S2: there was a very richly researched and very, very detailed 48 00:02:37,380 --> 00:02:39,820 S2: biography of Prince Andrew that was published by a guy 49 00:02:39,820 --> 00:02:44,019 S2: called Andrew Lownie. He spoke to in his account 300 50 00:02:44,020 --> 00:02:49,019 S2: people for his biography, and it paints the picture of 51 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:54,419 S2: a pompous, nasty, you know, overprivileged kind of bully. One 52 00:02:54,419 --> 00:02:57,940 S2: review I read of this biography in the New Statesman 53 00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:02,310 S2: was likening the biographer to an undertaker basically saying never. 54 00:03:02,310 --> 00:03:04,750 S2: Will you read something like this of a person who's 55 00:03:04,750 --> 00:03:11,150 S2: still alive? Like it's that damning. But I think the 56 00:03:11,150 --> 00:03:14,070 S2: Virgin Jufré book, which is called Nobody's Girl and is 57 00:03:14,070 --> 00:03:17,269 S2: a best seller around the world, is a tragic, tragic, 58 00:03:17,270 --> 00:03:21,030 S2: tragic tale from from you know, this entire woman's life 59 00:03:21,030 --> 00:03:25,950 S2: has been marred by abuse and in particular by the 60 00:03:25,950 --> 00:03:29,630 S2: association that she had with Jeffrey Epstein and all of his, 61 00:03:29,790 --> 00:03:34,390 S2: I guess, alleged co-conspirators. So she has detail in there. 62 00:03:34,389 --> 00:03:37,510 S2: So she talks about the three times that she was 63 00:03:37,550 --> 00:03:40,230 S2: she alleged she was abused by Prince Andrew when she 64 00:03:40,230 --> 00:03:43,869 S2: was an underage girl, including in London, in Belgravia, which 65 00:03:43,870 --> 00:03:46,750 S2: is the sort of most notorious incident or alleged incident 66 00:03:46,750 --> 00:03:49,550 S2: that he spoke about to the BBC. But other times 67 00:03:49,550 --> 00:03:53,110 S2: as well, for example, on sort of the private Caribbean 68 00:03:53,110 --> 00:03:55,510 S2: island that Jeffrey Epstein owned. 69 00:03:55,550 --> 00:03:59,030 S1: Because I know that the publication of Virginia Giuffre's book, 70 00:03:59,470 --> 00:04:02,630 S1: I've heard it sort of described as like the last 71 00:04:02,630 --> 00:04:05,550 S1: step in a very slow walk of shame that Prince 72 00:04:05,550 --> 00:04:08,630 S1: Andrew has been on since. There's been revelations about the 73 00:04:08,630 --> 00:04:11,630 S1: connection between these two men over the years. Do you 74 00:04:11,630 --> 00:04:14,710 S1: think one of the most revealing details of this book 75 00:04:14,710 --> 00:04:18,790 S1: is the allegation from Virginia Giuffre, that in one of 76 00:04:18,790 --> 00:04:21,830 S1: the incidences in which she alleges that she was abused 77 00:04:21,830 --> 00:04:25,150 S1: by Prince Andrew, she says that it was with Prince Andrew, 78 00:04:25,510 --> 00:04:29,550 S1: Jeffrey Epstein and eight other girls who she says in 79 00:04:29,550 --> 00:04:31,510 S1: the book that she thinks were younger than herself. And 80 00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:34,190 S1: she says they didn't seem to speak English. Do you 81 00:04:34,190 --> 00:04:37,350 S1: think that's one of the revelations that's really caused it 82 00:04:37,350 --> 00:04:39,870 S1: to be so in the spotlight now, because there's this 83 00:04:39,870 --> 00:04:42,830 S1: feeling of, well, what is he guilty of? And there 84 00:04:42,830 --> 00:04:43,630 S1: could be more to come. 85 00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:45,430 S2: I think it's that and I also think there's been 86 00:04:45,470 --> 00:04:48,390 S2: a slow drip of leaks of emails so that show 87 00:04:48,430 --> 00:04:51,909 S2: Prince Andrew to be a liar. So he's on record 88 00:04:51,910 --> 00:04:54,710 S2: as having basically lied about how much contact he had 89 00:04:54,710 --> 00:04:57,390 S2: with Jeffrey Epstein. After a certain point, he said that 90 00:04:57,390 --> 00:05:00,549 S2: he he told sort of the BBC in the famous 91 00:05:00,550 --> 00:05:04,039 S2: interview that he did that he cut off contact in 92 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:05,240 S2: December 2010. 93 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,599 S5: And I took the judgement call that because this was 94 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:16,159 S5: serious and I felt that doing it over the telephone 95 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,760 S5: was the chicken's way of doing it. I had to 96 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,120 S5: go and see him and talk to him. 97 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,279 S2: When he went to Epstein's Manhattan townhouse, which he said, 98 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,560 S2: you know, he stayed there for several days. He'd stayed 99 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,520 S2: there many, many times before. He was obviously very familiar 100 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,520 S2: with the house, but he went over there, he told 101 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,000 S2: Emily Maitlis of the BBC, to break up with Jeffrey 102 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,000 S2: Epstein essentially, and say, look, I can't associate myself with 103 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,880 S2: you anymore because Jeffrey Epstein by then was a convicted 104 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,080 S2: sex trafficker of underage girls. 105 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,240 S5: Which was when I said to him, I said, look, 106 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,800 S5: because of what has happened, I don't think it is 107 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:57,360 S5: appropriate that we should remain in contact. And by mutual 108 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,920 S5: agreement during that walk in the park, we decided that 109 00:06:00,970 --> 00:06:02,849 S5: we would part company and I left. I think it 110 00:06:02,850 --> 00:06:06,890 S5: was the next day. And to this day, I never 111 00:06:06,890 --> 00:06:09,650 S5: had any contact with him from that day forward. 112 00:06:10,490 --> 00:06:12,690 S2: So the emails that have been leaked effectively show that 113 00:06:12,690 --> 00:06:14,930 S2: to be a lie. So there's an email that's leaked 114 00:06:14,930 --> 00:06:18,490 S2: from the following year. So from 2011, where Prince Andrew 115 00:06:18,529 --> 00:06:21,130 S2: has written to Jeffrey Epstein and said, we're all in 116 00:06:21,130 --> 00:06:25,050 S2: this together. You know, I'm sorry that, you know, basically 117 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:28,810 S2: a solidarity email because by this stage, the photograph of 118 00:06:29,130 --> 00:06:33,849 S2: Prince Andrew with Virginia Giuffre had been widely publicised. And 119 00:06:33,850 --> 00:06:36,610 S2: he said he he signed it off notably. I hope 120 00:06:36,610 --> 00:06:39,210 S2: we can play some more again soon. And as Emily 121 00:06:39,210 --> 00:06:41,890 S2: Maitlis of the journalist from the BBC sort of said, 122 00:06:41,930 --> 00:06:45,210 S2: and I'm paraphrasing, but to write that that form of 123 00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:49,610 S2: words to a convicted paedophile is quite extraordinary. And he's 124 00:06:49,610 --> 00:06:51,810 S2: also sounded off with all of his royal titles. 125 00:06:51,850 --> 00:06:53,130 S1: That's right. I'm just going to I'm just going to 126 00:06:53,170 --> 00:06:54,970 S1: I got this in the Atlantic that he signed it 127 00:06:54,970 --> 00:06:58,609 S1: off as HRH The Duke of York, KG, and as 128 00:06:58,610 --> 00:07:01,980 S1: Helen Lewis wrote in The Atlantic IC who signs off 129 00:07:01,980 --> 00:07:04,740 S1: a cheery solidarity email to a convicted sex offender by 130 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:08,500 S1: listing his aristocratic titles. Only someone who values those titles 131 00:07:08,500 --> 00:07:09,340 S1: extremely highly. 132 00:07:09,380 --> 00:07:12,940 S2: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, what I find, what I 133 00:07:12,980 --> 00:07:16,380 S2: always want to point out about these titles as well, 134 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:19,180 S2: is that, you know, okay, he's a prince. But like 135 00:07:19,220 --> 00:07:21,540 S2: this sort of order of the garter thing, these kind 136 00:07:21,540 --> 00:07:24,739 S2: of like strange little, um, royal honours that he's gotten. 137 00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:28,060 S2: You know, they were given to him by his mum, 138 00:07:28,220 --> 00:07:29,900 S2: you know, like they're sort of like, oh, they're royal 139 00:07:29,940 --> 00:07:32,620 S2: honours at the gift of the monarch they bestowed upon 140 00:07:32,620 --> 00:07:36,580 S2: him by the monarch. It's your mum who's giving you 141 00:07:36,580 --> 00:07:40,660 S2: these special fancy fictional titles. That's right. Um, like, it's 142 00:07:40,660 --> 00:07:42,340 S2: sort of when you dig down into it. And I 143 00:07:42,340 --> 00:07:45,059 S2: think this is why this whole story is so, so 144 00:07:45,060 --> 00:07:48,140 S2: dangerous and so risky for the monarchy. It's like you 145 00:07:48,180 --> 00:07:51,620 S2: start to realize how absurd the entire construct is. Like, 146 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:54,340 S2: here he is puffing himself up with all these titles. 147 00:07:54,340 --> 00:07:57,180 S2: It's literally something your mum's given you just because you're 148 00:07:57,180 --> 00:07:58,020 S2: her favourite son. 149 00:07:58,060 --> 00:08:00,340 S1: That's right. I mean, we give our kids, like, living 150 00:08:00,380 --> 00:08:02,230 S1: on a paper bag because that's all we have at 151 00:08:02,230 --> 00:08:05,190 S1: our disposal. But they get like HRH and Royal Garter 152 00:08:05,190 --> 00:08:06,790 S1: and stuff from the 14th century. 153 00:08:06,790 --> 00:08:08,990 S2: And I mean, my mum calls me lots of sweet 154 00:08:08,990 --> 00:08:11,710 S2: little names too. Should I also be signing myself off 155 00:08:11,710 --> 00:08:14,030 S2: by them? My mum says I'm the best listener. The 156 00:08:14,030 --> 00:08:14,630 S2: best that. 157 00:08:14,990 --> 00:08:17,110 S1: Um, I'm going to alert the listeners from now on. 158 00:08:17,110 --> 00:08:20,910 S1: All my professional emails will be signed. Peanut. Because that was. Yeah, yeah, 159 00:08:21,270 --> 00:08:26,150 S1: that's what I got. We'll be right back. 160 00:08:27,750 --> 00:08:30,990 S6: Hello to crime nuts and nuts. Just generally we're back 161 00:08:30,990 --> 00:08:34,870 S6: with series seven of Naked City. I'd like to say 162 00:08:34,870 --> 00:08:37,750 S6: the delay was technical, but it's basically on bone lazy, 163 00:08:37,950 --> 00:08:41,110 S6: forced now to do it. It's pretty good. We talk 164 00:08:41,150 --> 00:08:45,110 S6: about cold cases, hot cases and cases that were never solved. 165 00:08:45,670 --> 00:08:53,390 S6: Notorious crooks. Brilliant detectives and Baggies reporters. Naked city out soon. 166 00:08:57,270 --> 00:08:59,750 S1: So what do we know? What is the history between 167 00:08:59,750 --> 00:09:02,320 S1: these two men? I mean, how deep or not deep 168 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,160 S1: was their friendship or relationship? 169 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,360 S2: Yeah. I mean, we don't know because I suppose neither 170 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,440 S2: of the the players involved have have said. But there's 171 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,200 S2: stuff that's pieced together. There's a lot of stuff about 172 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,720 S2: it entitled in the in the Andrew Lownie biography of Andrew. 173 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,880 S2: But they seem to it seems to go back to 174 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,280 S2: the kind of early 2000. So Ghislaine Maxwell, who Prince 175 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:30,559 S2: Andrew knew from, I suppose, British circles, he was introduced 176 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,839 S2: to Epstein through Ghislaine Maxwell, who of course was, you know, 177 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,240 S2: is now in jail as being basically Jeffrey Epstein's co-conspirator 178 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,319 S2: and sort of chief enabler of his sexual abuse of 179 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,079 S2: lots of girls. So Ghislaine Maxwell introduced the two of them, 180 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,600 S2: and it seems to have been a mutually beneficial relationship 181 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,959 S2: and in quite and quite a warm friendship. So, for example, 182 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,160 S2: there's photographs of Jeffrey Epstein at Royal Lodge, which is 183 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,960 S2: sort of one of the British residences at the at 184 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,679 S2: the 18th birthday party of one of Prince Andrew's daughters. 185 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,880 S2: I think it was Princess Beatrice, her 18th birthday party. 186 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,360 S2: And guess who else was there? Harvey Weinstein. So, you know, 187 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,440 S2: he's obviously enough of a close friend of the family 188 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,119 S2: to be invited to the 18th birthday party of the daughter. 189 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,080 S2: I think there's another photograph of them, of Ghislaine Maxwell 190 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,239 S2: and Jeffrey Epstein at one of the Queen's private residences, 191 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,319 S2: maybe in Balmoral, like a hunting lodge or something. So 192 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,840 S2: there seems to have been a close association over quite 193 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,319 S2: a few years during the 2000 until they, you know, 194 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,160 S2: severed contact around 2011 or. Andrew says that he severed 195 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,200 S2: contact and there was a lot of trips to, to 196 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,679 S2: New York. So until I think about 2011, when all 197 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,120 S2: of this stuff came out and Prince Andrew was forced 198 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,400 S2: to resign as the trade envoy for the United Kingdom, 199 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,440 S2: which was sort of this funny job that he was given, um, 200 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,440 S2: where he worked with the Foreign Office and tried to 201 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,600 S2: drum up trade for the United Kingdom. So he would 202 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,920 S2: travel a lot, you know, generally. But he travelled to 203 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,559 S2: New York. He would often stay at the Manhattan townhouse 204 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,880 S2: of Jeffrey Epstein, which is where some of these some 205 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,130 S2: of the most notorious sort of, um, activity of of 206 00:11:01,330 --> 00:11:04,370 S2: the sexual trafficking. Trafficking and the sexual abuse is alleged 207 00:11:04,370 --> 00:11:06,890 S2: to have taken place or known to have taken place. 208 00:11:07,050 --> 00:11:09,010 S1: So this brings us to to I think the question 209 00:11:09,010 --> 00:11:11,170 S1: that a lot of people are asking, which is, I guess, 210 00:11:11,210 --> 00:11:14,370 S1: how much might Prince Andrew have known about Jeffrey Epstein's 211 00:11:14,370 --> 00:11:17,970 S1: abuse of girls and women? I'm pretty sure that Prince 212 00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:21,370 S1: Andrew says he knew nothing. I heard someone say in 213 00:11:21,370 --> 00:11:23,330 S1: an interview recently that Andrew says that, you know, he 214 00:11:23,330 --> 00:11:25,290 S1: definitely would have noticed because he was the patron of 215 00:11:25,290 --> 00:11:27,729 S1: a child abuse charity, which I believe is no longer 216 00:11:28,170 --> 00:11:30,170 S1: there's no longer an affiliation there. So do you think 217 00:11:30,170 --> 00:11:33,250 S1: that's credible, that he would have known nothing? Because, I mean, 218 00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:34,290 S1: I think that, yeah. 219 00:11:34,330 --> 00:11:37,970 S2: Absolutely not. I mean, I, I, I feel so strongly 220 00:11:37,970 --> 00:11:40,530 S2: about this kind of stuff. It does become quite emotional 221 00:11:40,530 --> 00:11:43,370 S2: when you think when you read the detail of, you know, 222 00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:47,690 S2: the scores of girls who are abused and trafficked, the 223 00:11:47,730 --> 00:11:51,530 S2: goings on of these big parties with these rich men 224 00:11:51,570 --> 00:11:57,250 S2: who apparently were just given girls, and it was made 225 00:11:57,250 --> 00:12:02,059 S2: known to them that being given girls as a gift. 226 00:12:02,059 --> 00:12:03,900 S2: So they would go over to the house and they 227 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:06,059 S2: would say, and they would literally say, go and have 228 00:12:06,059 --> 00:12:09,660 S2: a massage with, you know, Virginia and Virginia would privately 229 00:12:09,660 --> 00:12:12,620 S2: be told, do for him what you do for Epstein. Yeah. 230 00:12:12,660 --> 00:12:14,660 S2: And some of the girls who were trafficked, and this 231 00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:17,300 S2: is when the Palm Beach authorities in Florida, I mean, 232 00:12:17,340 --> 00:12:20,420 S2: the sort of the failure of justice, you know. 233 00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:22,939 S1: Goes back a long way goes to 2008, I think. 234 00:12:22,980 --> 00:12:25,060 S2: Yeah. Because Jeffrey Epstein, when all of this was first 235 00:12:25,059 --> 00:12:27,420 S2: came out and was investigated by the by the cops 236 00:12:27,420 --> 00:12:30,420 S2: at Palm Beach, Florida, um, was given this sweet, sweet 237 00:12:30,420 --> 00:12:33,300 S2: plea deal, which was absolutely outrageous for the victims. And 238 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:36,060 S2: also it was outrageous to the cops. The reason it 239 00:12:36,059 --> 00:12:38,860 S2: came out was because there were 14 year old girls 240 00:12:38,860 --> 00:12:41,980 S2: in classrooms in Florida who were being approached by their 241 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:43,980 S2: friends to say, you know, come and work for this 242 00:12:43,980 --> 00:12:47,699 S2: rich guy, Jeffrey Epstein. He'll pay. He'll pay you to massage. 243 00:12:47,740 --> 00:12:50,660 S2: And his M.O. was to bring girls in as masseuses 244 00:12:50,660 --> 00:12:52,819 S2: and then to sexually assault them in the room. So 245 00:12:53,260 --> 00:12:55,020 S2: this is all you know? This is this is the 246 00:12:55,020 --> 00:12:58,340 S2: operation that was being run, right? And plane loads of 247 00:12:58,380 --> 00:13:01,020 S2: girls are going to this private island where, you know, 248 00:13:01,150 --> 00:13:04,189 S2: we know from eyewitness accounts from security personnel and drivers 249 00:13:04,190 --> 00:13:06,470 S2: and things like that, that there were sort of mass 250 00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:10,190 S2: orgies happening. These were not consenting adults that we're talking about. 251 00:13:10,190 --> 00:13:15,230 S2: So the look, I think the the best spin you 252 00:13:15,230 --> 00:13:17,790 S2: could put on it if you were being as generous 253 00:13:17,790 --> 00:13:19,870 S2: in the world as you possibly wanted to be to 254 00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:23,950 S2: Prince Andrew, would be that he, like many in Epstein's 255 00:13:23,950 --> 00:13:26,390 S2: circle and many famous people who were being named and 256 00:13:26,390 --> 00:13:28,949 S2: are scared of being named, I think in these Epstein files, 257 00:13:28,950 --> 00:13:33,150 S2: whatever they are, he showed a great incuriosity about all 258 00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:36,189 S2: of these young girls who were just hanging around and 259 00:13:36,390 --> 00:13:40,189 S2: all by all accounts, the Manhattan townhouse itself was sort 260 00:13:40,190 --> 00:13:42,350 S2: of infused with sex. So there was like some sort 261 00:13:42,350 --> 00:13:46,630 S2: of like, naked woman type sculpture slash sex doll hanging 262 00:13:46,630 --> 00:13:50,110 S2: in the hallway. I mean, I don't know if you've 263 00:13:50,110 --> 00:13:51,750 S2: read if you've read. One of the things that has 264 00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:55,390 S2: been released is The Birthday Book of Jeffrey Epstein. So 265 00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:58,790 S2: of course I read it because it's all available online. 266 00:13:58,790 --> 00:14:01,400 S2: And it's this is his sort of 50th birthday celebrations 267 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:02,959 S2: because he was such a big deal and he had 268 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,120 S2: so many famous rich friends, they were prevailed upon by 269 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,079 S2: Ghislaine Maxwell to write notes, to contribute. 270 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,559 S1: And this, of course, is the famous book that we 271 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,080 S1: think Donald Trump wrote this birthday note, which he denies. 272 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,640 S2: He's denied it. But like Donald Trump's alleged note, which 273 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,720 S2: he denies, having written every single reference from every single 274 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,760 S2: person who's written him a note talks about his love 275 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,400 S2: of girls, his love of young women. Like much, much 276 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,400 S2: more vulgar stuff than I would say on this podcast. 277 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,760 S2: Like every single note has a sexual has a ha ha. 278 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,160 S2: Doesn't Jeffrey love sex with girls? With young girls reference 279 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,480 S2: to it? So everyone knew. So I mean, I guess 280 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,120 S2: I just apart from the lies that Andrew's actually been 281 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,200 S2: caught out in, apart from the fact that there is 282 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,560 S2: literally a photograph that exists that, as far as we 283 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,920 S2: can tell, is entirely credible. And there has been various 284 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,240 S2: proofs of of its credibility over the years. Yeah. I 285 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,520 S2: guess you could say that he was really incurious about 286 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,370 S2: where these girls come from and why were they were 287 00:15:01,370 --> 00:15:02,810 S2: all hanging around and what they did. 288 00:15:02,850 --> 00:15:05,450 S1: And I think it's a good point. It's probably worthwhile 289 00:15:05,450 --> 00:15:07,690 S1: just pausing just for a moment to speak about so 290 00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:09,690 S1: much of what's forgotten in this is, of course, the 291 00:15:09,690 --> 00:15:12,170 S1: victims and the alleged victims, and I think that's something. 292 00:15:12,210 --> 00:15:14,530 S2: They were girls. I mean, we've both got girls like 293 00:15:14,570 --> 00:15:18,370 S2: they were vulnerable, vulnerable girls, and they were treated as 294 00:15:18,370 --> 00:15:21,130 S2: though they were nothing. They were treated as though they 295 00:15:21,130 --> 00:15:24,050 S2: were sort of dollies or, you know, they were passed 296 00:15:24,090 --> 00:15:26,530 S2: around like they were lamingtons on a plate and they 297 00:15:26,530 --> 00:15:29,210 S2: were treated with a total lack of humanity. And we 298 00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:31,970 S2: know this. And it was a it was it was 299 00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:35,130 S2: a big enough operation. And he was a well connected 300 00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:37,370 S2: enough guy that a lot of people saw it, knew 301 00:15:37,370 --> 00:15:40,650 S2: about it, whatever their level of knowledge was. And they 302 00:15:40,690 --> 00:15:44,330 S2: certainly couldn't have denied the knowledge. After he was convicted 303 00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:47,450 S2: and took a plea deal as a convicted sex trafficker 304 00:15:47,450 --> 00:15:48,530 S2: of underage girls. 305 00:15:48,610 --> 00:15:51,210 S1: Which I guess brings us all to the present, which 306 00:15:51,210 --> 00:15:54,690 S1: is the parliament now getting involved. Because now there's all 307 00:15:54,690 --> 00:15:56,490 S1: this talk of, well, I'm no longer going to use 308 00:15:56,490 --> 00:15:58,090 S1: the Duke of York, and I'm no longer going to 309 00:15:58,130 --> 00:16:01,610 S1: use these honorifics. So tell us, why has British Prime 310 00:16:01,610 --> 00:16:04,490 S1: Minister Keir Starmer been embroiled in all of this? And 311 00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:05,890 S1: what's the pressure now there in Britain? 312 00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:08,290 S2: So it's actually a bit of a sort of constitutional 313 00:16:08,290 --> 00:16:11,170 S2: conundrum because there is so much public outrage about it. Right? 314 00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:14,650 S2: So there's politicians who are like, um, you know, maybe 315 00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:17,810 S2: for good purposes, maybe they're just pushing a political barrier, but, um, 316 00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:20,650 S2: they're basically making as many moves as they can within 317 00:16:20,650 --> 00:16:23,530 S2: the parliamentary setting to have him stripped of his titles, 318 00:16:23,530 --> 00:16:25,650 S2: because it's not entirely clear how you can do that. 319 00:16:25,650 --> 00:16:29,850 S2: It's happened before, historically, um, through an act of Parliament. 320 00:16:29,890 --> 00:16:34,690 S2: So the king himself doesn't actually have sort of the 321 00:16:34,690 --> 00:16:38,090 S2: capacity to take the legal capacity. If you like to 322 00:16:38,130 --> 00:16:40,210 S2: take away titles. He can say to his brother, look, 323 00:16:40,250 --> 00:16:42,570 S2: I'd really prefer it if you don't use it, but 324 00:16:42,570 --> 00:16:45,250 S2: the only people who can take away the titles are 325 00:16:45,290 --> 00:16:48,530 S2: the British Parliament. But it's tricky because the King can't 326 00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:52,210 S2: say to the British Parliament famously, yeah, absolutely. They do 327 00:16:52,250 --> 00:16:55,490 S2: have the separation of powers. So. So he can't say 328 00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:57,890 S2: the British Parliament. Look, I'd really appreciate if you legislate 329 00:16:57,890 --> 00:17:00,890 S2: to get rid of my brother's titles. So there's been 330 00:17:00,980 --> 00:17:03,380 S2: not not by the sort of Labour government itself, but 331 00:17:03,380 --> 00:17:05,899 S2: by an Ex-labour MP who's now a sort of independent, 332 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:09,260 S2: and the Lib Dem Democrats who are like a smaller 333 00:17:09,260 --> 00:17:12,899 S2: minor party within the British Parliament to either, you know, 334 00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:15,899 S2: there's a parliamentary committee that's trying to push for further 335 00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:19,060 S2: oversight and inquiry into the finances and into this sweetheart 336 00:17:19,060 --> 00:17:21,740 S2: deal with, um, with the House. 337 00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:23,940 S1: Oh, the sweetheart deal over how little he pays to 338 00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:25,980 S1: stay in this 30 room mansion. 339 00:17:26,140 --> 00:17:29,379 S2: This is turning into. Why do we why do the 340 00:17:29,380 --> 00:17:31,500 S2: royals have all these houses that they can just give 341 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:32,380 S2: away to people? 342 00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:32,860 S1: Yep. 343 00:17:33,020 --> 00:17:36,020 S2: Why is this guy allowed to live in this enormous 344 00:17:36,020 --> 00:17:39,140 S2: house when he's not even a working royal anymore? Oh, 345 00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:41,739 S2: and why do we know so little about how the 346 00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:46,260 S2: royal family's, uh, household finances work? You know, they have 347 00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:49,379 S2: enormous amounts of private wealth, but we're not exactly sure why. 348 00:17:49,540 --> 00:17:52,340 S2: Why doesn't Prince Andrew get his own house? Where's his money? 349 00:17:52,340 --> 00:17:54,659 S2: All gone. You know. That's right. Like, what did the 350 00:17:54,660 --> 00:17:57,020 S2: Queen give him in her will? Like, it just becomes 351 00:17:57,020 --> 00:18:01,710 S2: really diffuse and kind of, um, you know, outrage making 352 00:18:01,710 --> 00:18:05,230 S2: on a really large scale, and it's sort of never ending. So, yeah, 353 00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:07,390 S2: I think they need to find a solution to this. 354 00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:09,629 S2: And I think King Charles is probably very, very aware 355 00:18:09,630 --> 00:18:10,149 S2: of that. 356 00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:12,150 S1: Yeah. And a huge part of that, of course, is 357 00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:14,630 S1: I imagine there'd be a lot of British taxpayers going, well, 358 00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:16,710 S1: what are we? How much of our money is going 359 00:18:16,750 --> 00:18:20,670 S1: towards payoffs to save Virginia Giuffre in the settlement that 360 00:18:20,670 --> 00:18:22,949 S1: Prince Andrew made with her in 2022? You know, that 361 00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:26,230 S1: money famously came from the Queen, his mother, his mummy. Sorry, mummy. 362 00:18:26,670 --> 00:18:28,870 S1: Mummy stepped in, you know, like, who's footing the bill 363 00:18:28,869 --> 00:18:31,149 S1: for all this? Which brings me to my next question, 364 00:18:31,150 --> 00:18:33,470 S1: which I think is really the crux of this, which is, 365 00:18:33,470 --> 00:18:36,109 S1: is this an existential crisis for the British monarchy? 366 00:18:36,350 --> 00:18:39,510 S2: Well, it's interesting because, I mean, there was I think 367 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:41,950 S2: it was Ian Wilson who is a very, very noted 368 00:18:42,350 --> 00:18:47,070 S2: historian and a very conservative historian, you might say. So 369 00:18:47,070 --> 00:18:49,230 S2: he's written a lot of books about British history, one 370 00:18:49,230 --> 00:18:51,830 S2: in particular called The Victorians, which is an absolute masterpiece, 371 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:54,830 S2: but I digress. Um, so he was on a podcast 372 00:18:55,470 --> 00:18:59,350 S2: at the the The Times newspaper podcast, I think, last week. 373 00:18:59,390 --> 00:19:02,840 S2: And he did say, this is, this is revolution making stuff. 374 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,440 S2: And this is the greatest crisis that the monarchy's faced 375 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,080 S2: since the abdication. 376 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,119 S1: Um, I mean, that's saying a lot from a family 377 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,560 S1: that has had I mean, I'm old enough that I 378 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,840 S1: remember a lot of scandals. Like, I remember King Charles from, 379 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,200 S1: you know, the toe sucking and the tampons. And, I mean, 380 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:18,840 S1: that's nothing. I mean, this is. 381 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,320 S2: This this is and, you know, there was sort of no, 382 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,359 S2: there were no winners in any of those scandals, but 383 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,280 S2: there were no sort of terrible victims either. So this 384 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,040 S2: is of a higher order, I think, of of outrage and, um, and, 385 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,280 S2: you know, the public disapprobation is really strong. Um, also. 386 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,000 S1: No anecdotes of the nastiness that you revealed in your 387 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,919 S1: piece about Prince Andrew. I'm just going to sort of 388 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,360 S1: cut you off, but this one is so outrageous and 389 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,760 S1: my jaw almost literally dropped. I mean, usually that's hyperbole, 390 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,080 S1: but you you reference here in that book entitled that 391 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,320 S1: you mentioned by Andrew Lownie was just published in August. 392 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,879 S1: And there's this anecdote about him enticing a woman at 393 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,159 S1: a dinner party to sniff a plate of pate to 394 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,210 S1: see if it smelled off to her. And when she Obliged. 395 00:20:01,250 --> 00:20:03,730 S1: He pushed it into her face just for a lark. 396 00:20:03,770 --> 00:20:06,370 S2: Yeah, that was one of the anecdotes in that book. 397 00:20:06,650 --> 00:20:08,969 S2: I mean, it's sort of this it's strung through with 398 00:20:08,970 --> 00:20:12,330 S2: these anecdotes of someone who just comes across as very, 399 00:20:12,330 --> 00:20:16,050 S2: very psychologically immature. And you might also you might sort 400 00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:19,210 S2: of say like socially kind of stunted. And I think 401 00:20:19,609 --> 00:20:22,409 S2: the best. Yeah. As I say in that piece, like 402 00:20:22,410 --> 00:20:24,810 S2: the best complexion you could probably put on his character 403 00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:27,490 S2: is that he's deeply insecure. And because he's had such 404 00:20:27,490 --> 00:20:30,649 S2: a weird upbringing, um, and no one's ever treated him 405 00:20:30,690 --> 00:20:33,850 S2: sort of like normal people are treated, even just in 406 00:20:33,850 --> 00:20:36,130 S2: a relational sense, like he would never have had an 407 00:20:36,130 --> 00:20:39,369 S2: equal relationship really, with anyone. That's right. Which is a 408 00:20:39,369 --> 00:20:41,370 S2: strange thing when you think about it, how much that 409 00:20:41,369 --> 00:20:44,770 S2: must stunt your personality. Like not even his own siblings, 410 00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:48,290 S2: because there's an order of succession there. So, yeah, I 411 00:20:48,290 --> 00:20:51,169 S2: think you just come across as someone who's maybe, maybe 412 00:20:51,170 --> 00:20:52,650 S2: the best thing you can say about him is he's 413 00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:54,889 S2: deeply insecure and he sort of doesn't know how to 414 00:20:54,930 --> 00:20:58,130 S2: behave around people in a way that's kind of socially acceptable, 415 00:20:58,130 --> 00:21:00,410 S2: but that that appears to have to come out in 416 00:21:00,450 --> 00:21:04,100 S2: sort of these. Yeah, moments of petty bullying and sort 417 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:07,379 S2: of petty cruelty like that. Like that anecdote. 418 00:21:07,420 --> 00:21:10,180 S1: Well, I'm going to quote one royal biographer, Tessa Dunlop. 419 00:21:10,180 --> 00:21:12,940 S1: She was recently interviewed about this whole situation, and she 420 00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:15,100 S1: said of Prince Andrew, He's a rotten apple, but he's 421 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:17,619 S1: a product of the system. So I guess one of 422 00:21:17,619 --> 00:21:21,300 S1: my questions is, does this entire affair. Does it really 423 00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:24,060 S1: bring the entire system into question? Do you think in 424 00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:25,700 S1: a way that we previously haven't seen? 425 00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:28,739 S2: I think I think it probably does. And which is 426 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:32,220 S2: not to overstate it, and to say that Britain's about 427 00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:35,540 S2: to become the United Kingdom, Kingdom is about to become 428 00:21:35,540 --> 00:21:37,980 S2: a republic, or, you know that we're about to become 429 00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:40,500 S2: a republic. But, you know, I think there are some 430 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:44,060 S2: really interesting statistics that I looked into for that piece 431 00:21:44,060 --> 00:21:47,180 S2: about public polling, about support for the monarchy and just 432 00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:51,179 S2: enthusiasm for the monarchy of the British public over the 433 00:21:51,180 --> 00:21:54,740 S2: last few decades. So it's quite long and it's really, 434 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:59,180 S2: really sunk. So the enthusiasm is just not there. And 435 00:21:59,180 --> 00:22:01,740 S2: I think what's so threatening about something like this is 436 00:22:01,740 --> 00:22:04,859 S2: it's like, you know, I guess in an ideal world, 437 00:22:04,859 --> 00:22:06,700 S2: the royal family would like to believe that it's one 438 00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:09,540 S2: bad apple. And, you know, every family's got one. And, 439 00:22:09,580 --> 00:22:11,260 S2: you know, there's always a brother who's a bit of 440 00:22:11,260 --> 00:22:12,179 S2: a shit or whatever. 441 00:22:12,220 --> 00:22:12,780 S1: Which is true. 442 00:22:12,820 --> 00:22:13,220 S2: But. 443 00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:13,740 S1: Yeah. 444 00:22:13,780 --> 00:22:18,540 S2: But, um. Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I, I would 445 00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:21,460 S2: not claim anyone similar in my family, but, um. Yeah, 446 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:23,660 S2: I think they would like they would like us to 447 00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:25,939 S2: they would like us to believe that. But the more 448 00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:28,659 S2: the more this becomes sort of like, you know, the 449 00:22:28,660 --> 00:22:33,300 S2: fallout just kind of reaches further and further the more 450 00:22:33,340 --> 00:22:36,020 S2: you do start thinking, well, why do these people live, 451 00:22:36,060 --> 00:22:38,820 S2: live in these fancy houses? Why are they giving these 452 00:22:38,820 --> 00:22:41,780 S2: silly titles that really are fictional and made up? Um, 453 00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:45,700 S2: why do they have enormous amounts of personal property, you know, 454 00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:48,540 S2: enormous amounts of personal wealth beyond the imaginings of the 455 00:22:48,540 --> 00:22:51,740 S2: ordinary person in Britain. And yet they get to stay 456 00:22:51,740 --> 00:22:54,420 S2: in these fancy houses that are owned by the taxpayer 457 00:22:54,420 --> 00:22:57,180 S2: while I'm living in a council flat, you know. So 458 00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:01,910 S2: I think it's threatening. It's deeply threatening to the monarchy 459 00:23:01,910 --> 00:23:06,629 S2: for us to be asking these questions and, um, examining 460 00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:10,989 S2: or um, yeah, reflecting on the actual basis for the 461 00:23:10,990 --> 00:23:13,310 S2: enormous privilege that that that they, um. 462 00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:14,990 S1: It's given by God. Jack. 463 00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:18,350 S2: Isn't that the think anyone believes that? No. Maybe King 464 00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:21,389 S2: Charles does on some on some level, but yeah, I 465 00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:23,950 S2: don't think anyone believes that anymore. So you can't sort 466 00:23:23,950 --> 00:23:25,870 S2: of use that as a blanket excuse that you might 467 00:23:25,869 --> 00:23:27,630 S2: once have been able to know. 468 00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:29,830 S1: Well, I just feel so lucky that you just wrote 469 00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:33,230 S1: about this. Your takes are always nuanced and intelligent and 470 00:23:33,230 --> 00:23:35,590 S1: tell me something I didn't know. So thank you so much. 471 00:23:35,630 --> 00:23:38,910 S2: Thank you for letting me rant about, um, all of this, but, um, yeah, 472 00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:42,149 S2: I actually do think it's a really, really important topic. 473 00:23:42,150 --> 00:23:45,830 S2: It's not it's not important just because it's, um, Prince Andrew, 474 00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:51,790 S2: but it's about structures, I suppose, and systems that enable abuse. 475 00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:54,869 S2: And yeah, I think that that is it's really important 476 00:23:54,869 --> 00:23:55,590 S2: to expose. 477 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,639 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself 478 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,640 S1: and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom 479 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,399 S1: McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our 480 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,640 S1: episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition 481 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,800 S1: on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our 482 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,040 S1: newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, 483 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:39,600 S1: visit the page or smh.com.au. Subscribe. And to stay up 484 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,080 S1: to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to 485 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,800 S1: receive a summary of the day's most important news in 486 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,600 S1: your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. 487 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,080 S1: I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.