S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a
S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald. In the age,
S1: we dive into the latest in the world of pop
S1: culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and Mel Cadbury, folks.
S1: We're back. You're excited to be back. You're well, I am.
S2: So excited to be back. I have really missed hanging
S2: out with you guys here once a week. It's been
S2: a real absence in my life.
S3: Yeah, I'm so excited to be back. I think more importantly,
S3: you know, we're giving the fans what they want. The
S3: trio is back together and yeah, it's been a long
S3: time off work and a long time since we've been
S3: sitting here together. So very exciting.
S1: I also like that you guys are doing a really
S1: good job of pretending, like we don't talk constantly and
S1: all the time, and have a lot of very boring
S1: work chats and slack chats throughout the day. This is
S1: a good energy though. This is the first time we're
S1: sort of like sitting in the studio getting ready to
S1: talk about everything that's going on in pop culture. I
S1: think it's exciting.
S2: Yeah, I feel like we're out. We have a WhatsApp dynamic,
S2: a slack dynamic, and in real life dynamic, the.
S3: WhatsApp dynamic very different to this, I would say. So
S3: like this is a whole this is like being back
S3: in this room is very different because I feel like
S3: especially you always been on WhatsApp, I feel like you're
S3: maybe 50% of your best, whereas in here you're 100%.
S2: That's a brutal.
S1: I don't give you guys 100% of my like attention
S1: on WhatsApp. I'll admit that you got you got 20%
S1: of my brain in the WhatsApp chat. But here you
S1: have like 110% of me.
S3: Yeah, I can feel it. I can feel all of
S3: you here.
S1: Yeah. And we're more likely in the WhatsApp chat to
S1: be talking about certain leaked Drake videos than we are
S1: on the podcast.
S2: Which made me watch this morning. I did.
S3: I didn't I didn't make you watch it, but you
S3: were curious to watch it. And then Mel was like,
S3: she had all the emotions in the 13 seconds. So yeah.
S2: It actually took me a while to realize what was
S2: going on.
S3: I'm not going to say that.
S1: And so it has been a minute since we've all
S1: been together on the pod, and there's like a lot
S1: to talk about, but I actually think we need to
S1: start with something that that surprised me on my social
S1: feed this morning. It was a video of a certain
S1: Holly Candy Neve lands, and you might remember her from
S1: her stint as Flik Skully from neighbors did not expect
S1: to be talking about holly villains or neighbors, but this
S1: is like a big viral moment in Australia and the
S1: world right now. Uh, yes. Just flick on neighbours. You
S1: guys probably also remember her song Kiss Kiss from 2002,
S1: but you did not know that that was a cover
S1: of a 1997 Turkish song and an extra little fact
S1: for you, Thomas. The first English language cover, which is
S1: the one that Holly herself actually covered, was by a
S1: great American singer, Stella Salil. Like, that's pretty cool.
S3: That's perfect. I love Greek facts, as we know. Uh,
S3: obviously don't want to get into the whole Ottoman Empire
S3: situation so early in the pod. Uh, but also, I've
S3: always I was always more of a naughty girl guy
S3: as opposed to kiss kiss. But really.
S1: No, I was a big kiss kiss fan.
S3: Yeah, that was in the era when, like all the
S3: film clips of that era, everyone was like, sweating. And
S3: it was always raining. Um, inside of rain. Yeah, that
S3: was a good hot, wet era.
S4: Yeah.
S2: Good.
S1: Um, villains has been keeping a pretty low profile for
S1: the last little while. A lot of people maybe. Don't know,
S1: but she's married to this British billionaire property developer called
S1: Nick Candy, and she was photographed. It's like the last
S1: time she was part of the conversation. She was photographed
S1: at Mar-A-Lago alongside Trump a couple of years ago. And
S1: people are like, what's going on? Well, it turns out
S1: her husband is like a conservative donor and sort of
S1: like political figure. And that's again how she's cropped up.
S1: So this week, she gave this short interview to a
S1: British TV journalist who was at the launch event for
S1: former British prime Minister Elizabeth Truss's new like faction of
S1: the Conservative Party, the popular conservatives and and Holly villains
S1: was asked about her political views by the journalist.
S5: Where are you politically? I would say that.
S6: Everyone starts off as a lefty and then wakes up
S6: at some point after you start either making money working,
S6: trying to run a business, trying to buy a home,
S6: and then realizes what crap ideas they all are, and
S6: then you go to the right.
S1: And then she started talking about how much she loves
S1: Liz Truss, and she wants Jacob Rees-Mogg, another conservative figure,
S1: to be prime minister. Honestly, guys, did you ever think
S1: you'd be talking about Holly Valance views not just on politics,
S1: but on the leadership of the British Conservative Party?
S3: I mean, I personally did, um.
S2: I haven't thought of Holly Valance probably since Kiss Kiss. Well, I.
S3: Actually have a funny, um, possibly surprising contribution to this segment,
S3: which maybe you guys didn't think I'd have much to
S3: say on. But here we are ages ago. Osmond, you
S3: may remember this. You made me write a story on
S3: when she was photographed at Mar-A-Lago with. I do remember
S3: Donald Trump and I wrote like a funny whatever story
S3: about it. Anyway, you know how sometimes you have those
S3: stories that on Twitter, they just live forever and you
S3: just keep getting notifications about them like years after because
S3: the story has somehow found its way into, like, I
S3: don't know, weird circles, like political circles on both sides
S3: of the spectrum. And I constantly get retweeted in it
S3: cause some. Someone is keeping a list of everyone that
S3: ever visited Mar-A-Lago and this story is on the list.
S3: So I get like 30 notifications a week just about
S3: this one story. And I mean this thread that's been
S3: going for like five years with like 50,000 comments.
S2: That's like keeping your traffic numbers here alive.
S3: Yeah, yeah, it's great for me. But yes. So I
S3: actually do think about Holly Valance more than I probably
S3: care to admit.
S1: What did you think? Were you surprised? It's sort of
S1: fun to see her reemerge in this way.
S2: I think the video is just amazing, isn't it? It's
S2: the smile she does at the end, the way she
S2: just cuts off the conversation with this smile and it's
S2: not even really thinking about what she's saying. It's amazing audio.
S2: Like it feels like something like satire. It feels like
S2: something you would write if you were trying to parody
S2: someone being right wing. Well, I.
S3: Know that last year you became a home owner. Do
S3: you feel like you're now firmly on the right?
S2: Because I'm sad. Yeah.
S3: You woke up and you were like, well, I've got
S3: the keys now. And yeah.
S2: I'm part of the I like.
S1: That, she says. I like that. Holly villain says it's
S1: when you stop making money or trying to run a business,
S1: you become right wing as opposed to marrying a right
S1: wing billionaire with strong links to the US Republicans. In
S1: UK conservatives, this.
S3: Is a real rich man north of Ramsey Street moment.
S1: How do we how do we feel she she in
S1: the rankings of like neighbors alum right. Kylie is right
S1: up there Margot Robbie obviously right up there I mean
S1: Holy Valence is pretty up there. She's she's discussed by
S1: people in the States, in the UK, in Australia. She's
S1: got to be one of the top, top five most
S1: well known neighbors. Folk man.
S3: She's not even the best of the Lance. It's been
S3: on the show like I'm Tim Olympia, uh, Olympia Valance.
S2: And if you want to go one hit wonders, Natalie
S2: Imbruglia torn like that was a banger. She was great
S2: on the show. You know who else? Because I didn't
S2: actually watch neighbours. But you know who else I have
S2: figured out since it was.
S1: Natalie Imbruglia on Neighbours.
S2: Yeah.
S1: Yeah. Oh, wow. I did not know that.
S2: There you go. There you go. From that corner. Um,
S2: you know who else was though? Russell Crowe for episode.
S1: Wow. Okay. Cool.
S2: Kenny. Lorcan. Yeah.
S3: And he's also a musician with fog. Yeah. 30 odd
S3: foot of Grant.
S1: So, no, I believe I believe that that band has
S1: gone on a hiatus, and now it's, uh, the garden
S1: party or something like that is his current musical outfit.
S3: Yeah, right. Sorry, Tony. I reckon they might sound really similar.
S1: Okay, to be honest, I could talk about holy violence
S1: politics for the entire show, and I might strongarm you
S1: guys into doing that at some point. But there's a
S1: lot more going on in the world of culture today.
S1: We're in the middle of award season. We've already had
S1: the Emmys and the Golden Globes. We had the Grammys
S1: just this week, and the Oscars are around the corner
S1: in March. I wanted to talk to you guys about
S1: what kind of relevance these award shows still have, and
S1: what they tell us about how we consume and discuss TV,
S1: film and music in 2024. We obviously also cannot talk
S1: about the Grammys this week without discussing Taylor Swift's appearance
S1: and the chokehold she continues to maintain on on the culture.
S1: And in exciting news, our Impress Your Friend segment is
S1: also back. It's our recommendation segment, and it's bigger and
S1: better than ever. We're going to be talking about what
S1: we loved over the summer, what we're watching right now,
S1: and what we're looking forward to coming up this year.
S1: All right. Let's talk about the awards. I was thinking
S1: about how to frame this conversation to make it more interesting.
S1: Instead of us just going through who won and who
S1: lost in how we felt about it. And I thought
S1: it could be interesting to start by asking you guys
S1: what role you think awards like these play. In our
S1: current era, the way we consume art has changed so dramatically.
S1: The monoculture is no longer here. We watch and we
S1: listen on fragmented different platforms fed to us by algorithms,
S1: mass culture, the way that we had it in the
S1: 90s and 2000 and even early 20 tens is pretty gone.
S1: So what is the purpose of an award show that
S1: tries to get everyone in a room and say, this
S1: was the best song of film or television released in
S1: the previous 12 months?
S3: Yeah, I think it's become a really strange part of
S3: the landscape, but I think that I mean, to me,
S3: especially after watching the Grammys, they felt increasingly irrelevant. Like
S3: we will talk about it later. But the fact that,
S3: you know, the biggest talking point of the Grammys was
S3: Taylor Swift announcing her new album, which, like, was nothing
S3: to do with any of the awards. And that kind of,
S3: I think is a microcosm for what is really happening. Like,
S3: these celebrities and these stars have become bigger than the
S3: awards themselves, or for people who don't really engage with
S3: like these works critically, they don't care. If Barbie doesn't
S3: win best film, they already think it's the best film.
S3: And I think what has kind of happened or where
S3: we've found ourselves, is that the awards, every awards ceremony
S3: is like the Oscars at home, the Lo guys, Grammys, Emmys.
S3: It's all just like and, you know, a loathe to
S3: kind of get into this conversation, but like, it's just
S3: part of the content machine. So like, you know, the
S3: Oscars is kind of just like the season finale of
S3: like Hollywood, the show. And so like, we we just
S3: are used to this content. So it's like the awards
S3: show happened and we talk about the cold open from
S3: the host. That's like one part of the show. Then
S3: we talk about the performances. We talk about who was there.
S3: Red carpet is another part of the episode that we're watching.
S3: But like, no one gives a fuck about who actually
S3: won because like, it's all so contentious and we already
S3: think we know who's best. And so it's all just
S3: like part of the machine. But we don't we don't
S3: really like need to know who is the. We don't
S3: really expect these shows now to inform us who is
S3: actually the best.
S2: Yeah, I, I kind of disagree with parts of what
S2: you say. Like I think as all of the award
S2: ceremonies have gone through a reckoning, or at least on
S2: the surface, of going through a reckoning over the past
S2: few years with looking at kind of diversity in their
S2: judging and in the winners as well. And I think
S2: they're still trying to grapple with that. And the change
S2: isn't happening as fast as maybe needs to happen to
S2: ensure that these major awards maintain their relevance. But I
S2: still think they deeply matter. Like, I don't think you
S2: can discount how powerful it was to see, like Lily
S2: Gladstone win the Best Actress awards at the Globes, or
S2: to see the cast and crew of beef talk about
S2: the importance of making a show about the Asian American experience.
S2: Like the change isn't maybe happening as fast as it
S2: should be, but I still think those moments are deeply important,
S2: and I don't think anyone really thinks no one really like,
S2: you know, I've judged awards before. No one really thinks
S2: that the awards go to the best work. Like, I
S2: don't think anyone actually thinks the Oscars is about what's best,
S2: but it is about celebrating people who make culture. And
S2: I think that is good. And I think there are
S2: two different things here. There's like the televised show, which
S2: is obviously struggling and needs to change the ratings for
S2: all these shows are not great. But then there is
S2: also the existence of awards as a concept. And I think, yes,
S2: the the broadcast needs to change, but awards is a concept.
S2: I think they drive people to cinemas. I think they
S2: make culture part of the conversation. And I don't think
S2: we can argue that awards are wholesale bad.
S3: No, I don't think they're bad. But I just think
S3: and like, I love award shows because I do love
S3: doing all those things.
S2: And you love winning awards.
S3: And I love getting awards. I don't get many, but like,
S3: perhaps I'll get some this year. But like, you know,
S3: I love I love being a part of all of
S3: that kind of cycle. Like, I love sitting there and
S3: like as soon as, you know, we're watching the Grammys
S3: of the day straight away, we were like, what do
S3: we think of Trevor Noah? Is he funny? Is he bombing?
S3: Is he doing better than Joker at the Globes? Like,
S3: I love partaking in the experience. And I do agree,
S3: like there are occasional like heartwarming, heartwarming, sincere moments that matter.
S3: But I think as a whole we're kind of like
S3: edging and edging towards this point where it's like, no
S3: one really cares what. Is being said at these awards
S3: or who is being, you know, recognized. We're just like
S3: watching it because the Grammys are on and like, maybe
S3: something fucking weird will happen.
S1: Yeah, I like I like the distinction that that you
S1: guys kind of come into between the entertainment kind of
S1: set piece of what this ceremony is and the televised
S1: ceremony versus the role they play in kind of critical culture.
S1: I kind of agree with Thomasin on the first part
S1: of that, because it does seem like these things are
S1: increasingly becoming a pantomime. And I also want to be careful.
S1: I'm not necessarily necessarily saying it's like a bad thing
S1: because like you, Thomas, I enjoy watching them. We blog them,
S1: we write about them. They're really interesting. But it's almost
S1: like the Grammys and the Globes and the Oscars as
S1: a piece of like three hour long entertainment is completely
S1: devoid from the critical side of it. It is just
S1: like the red carpet stuff. Who's going to go viral?
S1: Who's going to get asked an awkward question? Who's going
S1: to get made fun of? And that's probably always been
S1: a part of these ceremonies. But the way that we
S1: consume news on social media and the way that we now,
S1: rather than writing like one story about what happened at
S1: the Oscars, which we would have done 10 or 20
S1: years ago, we spend eight hours liveblogging it, writing like
S1: 300 mini stories and then break out stories. This, this
S1: all kind of feeds into the modern way that we
S1: create news media. And I think, I think like, yeah, again,
S1: there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But I've been thinking
S1: about why it feels like even though the the numbers
S1: of people watching these things live is dropping down, the
S1: engagement from regular people about what's going on is going up.
S1: Like without giving out specific numbers. Our Grammys coverage, our
S1: live blog coverage is growing every year, and I find
S1: that really interesting. And I'm I'm not sure whether that
S1: has partly to do with the fact that maybe there's
S1: so much grim, sad, heavy stuff in the rest of
S1: the news cycle. And so people are like, well, I
S1: just want to spend some time seeing who's performing well
S1: and who's making jokes and whatever I'm going to plug
S1: into that. But I also can't help but think, like,
S1: I was thinking about this over, over. Sumner. I'm sorry
S1: to anyone who has the misfortune of like looking at
S1: my Instagram stories, but I was thinking about whether Stan
S1: culture and the way that we project so many of
S1: our values and ideas and ideologies onto artists and actors,
S1: and we kind of look to them. We trust them
S1: more than we trust political institutions. And the media now
S1: means that these award ceremonies become like the most interesting
S1: battleground or the most interesting kind of domain for conversation
S1: and discourse, not just about music and culture, but about politics,
S1: about the way the world works now, because we actually
S1: care and like and trust actors and musicians more than
S1: anyone else. And so we put a lot of our
S1: focus and attention onto, onto them, onto when they say
S1: things and onto which one of them beats the other,
S1: if that makes sense.
S2: Yeah, that does make sense. But I wonder if the
S2: reasoning for that is because we care and trust what
S2: they think about politics so much as we see them
S2: as a reflection of that. If that if if that
S2: makes sense. Like, I guess I don't know if people
S2: are necessarily watching it because they want to see what
S2: I don't know. Leonardo DiCaprio has to say about the
S2: state of things on the red carpet, as much as
S2: that moment on the red carpet is an embodiment of
S2: kind of what's going on in the broader world, like
S2: I and I also do wonder if these are, um,
S2: these are spectacles that it's kind of okay to engage
S2: with for people who maybe see themselves as usually distance
S2: from celebrity culture, maybe the Oscars or something is something
S2: is a is a ceremony that it's okay to engage
S2: in and enjoy the celebrity and the spectacle of it.
S2: For people who maybe wouldn't kind of be so much
S2: on the celebrity beat, like it's a way of engaging
S2: in that in a kind of highbrow form.
S1: Well, I think I think that actually speaks to what
S1: I guess I wasn't trying to say that we are
S1: so excited about what any of these people say about
S1: actual politics. It's more like find people our age or
S1: younger who care about anything to do with, like, politics,
S1: the way that a previous generation did or care about
S1: anything to do with like the media and stuff. And
S1: it's not saying that these people are now dumb and disconnected.
S1: They have lots of good reasons to not trust in
S1: individuals and institutions. And there's also a lack of trust
S1: in Hollywood. But I do think where people still feel
S1: some connection and some sense of like, I like and
S1: respect that person. I'm interested in seeing what they do,
S1: how they interact. What they say about anything is probably
S1: boiled down to just like the world of art and culture,
S1: like it is musicians and actors more than it is
S1: politicians and columnists and that sort of thing.
S3: Yeah for sure. And like, I think also the the
S3: whole style of these awards now is that you're engineered
S3: to kind of like moments come out of them, like
S3: whether it's like red carpet moments or like, you know,
S3: someone wins an award and says a speech and you
S3: wait for like, whatever will end up on the internet
S3: later that night. And so we do kind of like
S3: you go into anything, whether it's like the Met Gala,
S3: the Oscars, whatever. And like few people outside, probably the
S3: industry really watched the awards in the way that we
S3: watch them. Like from start to finish, all, you know,
S3: 35 hours of them. But. You can get. There's always
S3: going to be like 5 or 6 moments that come
S3: out that then live on the internet. And often they are,
S3: you know, the intersection of like these people that we like,
S3: respect and, you know, are fascinated by and fixate on
S3: talking about whatever's happening in the world at the time. And,
S3: you know, the marriage of those two things is then
S3: what that kind of seeps into the broader culture. And then,
S3: you know, like I had people that are friends of
S3: mine like, I know weren't watching the Grammys, but like
S3: pretty quickly into it, they were like, oh my God,
S3: did you see, um, Tracy Chapman and Luke Combs? And like,
S3: that is now already that's got like a second life,
S3: that performance. And that was probably for me, one of
S3: the I mean, Mel made fun of me because I
S3: watched it about 55 times a day.
S1: It was a great it was a great moment.
S3: It was a great. And also, we'll get on to
S3: this because the.
S2: Moments that he watched it repeatedly at his death.
S1: He was watching it for Luke Combs, not Tracy Chapman,
S1: which is the bad thing.
S2: That I love.
S3: I love both of them. And I can't believe you
S3: don't like Fast Car, but we'll circle back to that. Um,
S3: but like, you know, that's already become something that is
S3: like represents more, I think, than what was just a beautiful,
S3: kind of like, breathtaking performance. It's become this like, big moment.
S3: And people, you know, The Atlantics is like a 2000
S3: word piece on it today. Like it's, you know, we
S3: get these, we put all of these famous people that
S3: we obsess over into one room with a bunch of media,
S3: and then you kind of like adding, sprinkle everything that's
S3: going on in the world and then like, you just like,
S3: see what bubbles up. And then I think we love
S3: to like, dissect that.
S2: Can I say to that point what I have found interesting,
S2: particularly in this year's awards, and it has slowly been
S2: happening over the last few years, but have noticed it
S2: in the latest batch. Is the focus on kind of
S2: fly on the wall moments of the famous people in
S2: in the crowd, like it's the Taylor and Selena conversation,
S2: like what were they gossiping about? It's the Calvin Harris
S2: and Taylor pass by the Olivia Rodrigo throw out to
S2: someone in the audience. I feel like they really have
S2: shifted the broadcast, and this probably speaks to failing ratings,
S2: to being a bit more of a reality show. Like
S2: there's a lot of kind of attempted gotcha moments here,
S2: and I do feel for them because these stars are
S2: being like hot mic all over the place, and you
S2: do get the feeling that they're not always complicit. You know,
S2: I'm sure they know about some of the kind of throwaways.
S2: But yeah, I feel that fly on the wall gotcha.
S2: Trying to create an ah, uh, like trying to create
S2: a moment out of reality that can be become viral
S2: and talked about is is a pretty interesting development.
S1: Yeah. I want to put a pin on that one
S1: because I want to come back to that one specifically
S1: around Taylor Swift and how she sort of acted at
S1: the Grammys, because I think that's a really interesting example
S1: of someone who's very conscious of that and is not
S1: just thinking about what she's doing on stage, but when
S1: she's in the background, how does she look and who
S1: she is, who is she interacting with? But just just
S1: on the on the on the awards generally like before
S1: the internet came along and like disrupted everything. Like you
S1: could have an Emmys and the people who would be
S1: winning the Emmys, shows like friends, shows like The Office
S1: or whatever that everyone was watching. Right? These are shows
S1: that got like 50 million viewers every night now, very
S1: rare to see any show get that kind of traction.
S1: But the Emmys seem to also be not really that
S1: interested in what is the most popular show like it's
S1: not not Yellowstone that wins the Emmys. It's Succession and
S1: The Bear, which we love. We think they're amazing shows,
S1: but we also know that they're watched by a very
S1: small proportion of people, particularly when you think about the
S1: broad mainstream kind of American TV watching audience. And it's
S1: sort of similar for the Oscars. I feel like, you know,
S1: Bobby and Oppenheimer were two big blockbusters that both are
S1: nominated for Best Picture. But there are so many like,
S1: films that have got almost no box office money. I
S1: think the Oscars have always been a bit like that.
S1: They've always sort of rejected going for the big commercial
S1: successes over most of their history. It's shifted kind of
S1: more recently. How confused you reckon people are who tuned
S1: in to watch the Emmys, and they're like, what are
S1: these shows? Why is like the kind of big network
S1: comedy that I watch not being recognized?
S2: I don't know if they would be very confused, because
S2: I think you're right that, like, these awards ceremonies often
S2: come with the caveat that they're the critic's picks, and
S2: critics often don't tend to pick the mainstream readily accessible
S2: to the most amount of people shows. And I think
S2: that's the same across all kinds of prizes as well.
S2: Like literary prizes are no different. Um, so I don't,
S2: I don't know. Do you think people would be shocked?
S2: Anyone who really watches TV knows the names of these shows?
S2: Is this just.
S3: Is this you kind of is getting annoyed that succession
S3: beat Yellowstone again?
S1: Yeah, definitely.
S4: Keep Yellowstone.
S1: It's flowers. No, I think it's more like it's not
S1: just about what's popular versus what is not popular. It's
S1: kind of like nothing is popular anymore. Do you know
S1: what I mean? Like, they used to be 5 or
S1: 6 shows that everyone watched, and the Emmys would award
S1: one of them best comedy or best drama. Now there's
S1: 50 shows that different people watch based on whether they're
S1: subscribed to Amazon Prime or Paramount+ or whatever. And so
S1: it's really interesting when you boil all that down at
S1: the end of the year to this one award ceremony,
S1: and you're picking from things that even if it's good,
S1: even if a lot of people watched, it is never
S1: going to come close to capturing maybe even 50% of
S1: the people who are watching the Emmys. Do you know
S1: what I mean?
S2: That's true. But maybe on the converse, that makes award
S2: ceremonies even more necessary and relevant because.
S1: It tells people to go watch this show. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
S1: in an.
S2: Oversaturated market, all of a sudden the Emmys is boiling
S2: it down to five. And obviously people are going to
S2: have different opinions about what those five should be, but
S2: maybe that actually reinstates the importance of them as a
S2: way to capture a cultural moment.
S1: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And you
S1: certainly see that bump when Oscar nominations come out, for example,
S1: you see people flocking to cinemas to watch movies like
S1: The Zone of Interest in Anatomy of a fall that
S1: didn't have huge marketing campaigns. And if they can still
S1: play that role in saying, hey, you might not be
S1: aware of this, but a group of people who care
S1: say that this is an important thing that you should watch.
S1: That's pretty cool. That's like still a pretty useful role
S1: for them to play.
S3: Yeah, and I saw that a lot. I think with
S3: beef at the Emmys. Um, and the Globes, like I
S3: had lots of friends that hadn't kind of maybe beef
S3: had skipped them by. And then we're kind of texted
S3: me to be like, oh, like beef one a lot like,
S3: is it good? And I was like, it's like, so
S3: fucking good. You have to go and watch it immediately.
S3: So I do think that is, um, still a role
S3: that awards stream that awards ceremonies can play. But I
S3: do think and, you know, I kind of we spoke
S3: about this a little bit after the Grammys and I
S3: mentioned it in the blog, but it's such a for me,
S3: like such an issue with awards ceremonies generally. And the
S3: Oscars is exactly the same, but it's like we just
S3: have this obsession with nostalgia that has turned awards ceremonies
S3: into basically an exercise in just like looking back at
S3: how great everything was all the time. And I thought
S3: the Grammys, like I would say generally that the take
S3: on the Grammys was it was a pretty fun awards ceremony.
S3: This year was pretty good as far as awards ceremonies go.
S3: But like, man, like, you know, Tracy Chapman obviously love her,
S3: but it was like Tracy Chapman, Annie Lennox, Stevie Wonder,
S3: Billy Joel closing out the performance with two different numbers
S3: like it was a lot if you the generation gap
S3: of the Grammys this year was pretty crazy. Like you
S3: had Dua Lipa and scissor, like kind of opening the
S3: show and then Billy Joel closing the show, and there's
S3: two sets of audiences watching there who had no idea
S3: who the fuck these people were.
S2: I, I understand what you're saying, but part of me
S2: wonders whether a lot of those names, and obviously not
S2: all of them, are getting recognition that they didn't get
S2: at the time. Like it was very important that Tracy
S2: Chapman was on that stage. And some of those other
S2: older artists that perhaps have been overlooked or haven't got
S2: the historical recognition that they deserve, do get a moment
S2: on stage. So I wonder if that's what they're trying
S2: to do, as well as appeal to the broadest possible.
S4: But isn't it.
S1: Isn't also like another example of the point I was
S1: making with the Emmys. Like there is never going to
S1: be another Billy Joel or Annie Lennox, because there's never
S1: going to be another artist that 90% of the world
S1: know and have like, listened to before. Like Annie Lennox
S1: is doing the O'Connor tribute, like when I spice dies
S1: in 50 or 60 years or whatever. Like they're like,
S1: most people will be like, I don't I didn't listen
S1: to Ice Spice and and that's not to diss her.
S1: It's just that, again, it goes to the structure and
S1: mechanisms by by which we consume like music now. And
S1: I think that's a really good example of what the
S1: Grammys I think demonstrated was this disconnect of old musicians
S1: who have resonance and actually are more economically powerful than
S1: they used to be. There's a really interesting stat that,
S1: like older musicians and the catalogs that they have are
S1: now the biggest drivers of revenue to music labels because
S1: of how streaming works. It used to be you'd buy
S1: your Billy Joel CD and that was it, whereas now
S1: you stream it so that those artists continue to make
S1: money for labels in a way that they didn't used
S1: to unless they were touring. Uh, and if you have
S1: a new generation of artists like Burna Boys performing scissors,
S1: performing Ice spice, performing, they're all great. They do great stuff.
S1: They've got loyal audiences, but they're never going to be
S1: like known by our parents. I guess they're never going
S1: to have their broad resonance. And so I think the
S1: Grammys are trying to figure out how the Grammys, the
S1: entire music industry, is trying to figure out, can there
S1: be mass music culture again, like. Can there be another
S1: artist that every single person, whether they're 11 years old
S1: or 70 years old, knows about? And can we construct
S1: an award show around them? I'm not sure there will be.
S3: Yeah. Her name is Taylor Swift.
S4: Yeah.
S1: But I'm like, okay. Taylor Swift is also not a
S1: new artist.
S3: No, no, I know I completely agree with you and
S3: I do. I think it's a really interesting kind of
S3: conundrum for like you, you want to like you need
S3: to like balance this, the power of the past. And
S3: it always creates these really beautiful moments. And everything you
S3: just said is so true. But then you've got these, like,
S3: especially if you're a young person, like watching some of
S3: the Grammys on TikTok or whatever, like if you're, you know,
S3: seeing Billy Joel close out the award ceremony, that means
S3: nothing to you. Like, yeah, it's yeah, it's a strange
S3: kind of like position to be in, I think. I know.
S2: But maybe this is maybe it can be a more
S2: educative purpose of some of these awards ceremonies, because I
S2: think too often today we, like artists, make art without
S2: actually knowing what came before. And I do think there
S2: is some kind of enlightening purpose of like not to
S2: make kind of the Grammys, you know, a school lesson.
S2: But I do actually think it's nice to see what
S2: came before and to see how these artists are building
S2: on legacies, you know, and maybe connecting the present with
S2: the past is kind of serves a broader purpose than
S2: just the kind of. So you want to.
S3: Have more U2 at the fucking sphere in Las Vegas.
S4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S1: Well, see, I mean, I agree with that, Mel, but
S1: I feel like I'm not worried about that not happening. Like,
S1: you know, when we look at the Super Bowl and
S1: the that the tributes to hip hop and whatever, I
S1: think the industry is very good at reminding everyone the
S1: powerhouses exist. What I think they haven't quite figured out
S1: yet is how do you get everyone across the new
S1: generation of artists and like like the beef comparison you
S1: were giving Thomas for the for the Emmys? It wasn't
S1: clear to me, like who watching the Grammys is going
S1: to be like, oh, cool. Like, this is the next
S1: new cool person I've got to be across. That wasn't
S1: really established for me.
S2: Yeah. That's interesting. Sometimes I think people have like two
S2: different approaches to like art. Some people like never move
S2: past what they were when they were 15 and like
S2: they just watched the same music and they just don't
S2: have interest in kind of moving past their early established tastes.
S2: Are you talking.
S1: About Taylor Swift?
S4: Yeah.
S2: Very good. And then all the people I think seek
S2: that newness. So I wonder if, I don't know, maybe
S2: it's always been like maybe, maybe the idea that a
S2: certain generation aren't going to discover younger audience is true.
S2: But maybe that's also just how kind of it can
S2: be with culture.
S1: Yeah, that's a good point.
S3: I'm just saying they're a cooler old people than Billy
S3: Joel to close the show out.
S4: Yeah. Like, seriously, the guy.
S3: Looked like he was working security at like, so.
S1: Well, we saw Bruce Springsteen at the Golden Globes. That
S1: was pretty.
S4: Fun. Yeah. He's cool.
S1: He's really cool. Yeah, he's really cool. Um, look, we've
S1: danced around the Taylor thing enough. I think it's time
S1: to just talk about it. She. She won album of
S1: the year. That's generally considered to be the biggest prize
S1: the Grammys give out. It's the fourth time she's won
S1: that prize more than any other artist. Uh, she announced
S1: a new album on stage.
S7: So I want to say thank you to the fans
S7: by telling you a secret that I've been keeping from
S7: you for the last two years, which is that my
S7: brand new album. Comes out April 19th. It's called. It's
S7: called the Tortured Poets Department. I'm going to go and
S7: post the cover right now backstage. Thank you.
S1: She emerged clearly like you said. Thomas at the start
S1: of this conversation is the dominant figure. Out of out
S1: of the awards, I want to talk about her place
S1: and culture kind of more broadly, but I want to
S1: focus on the Grammys side of it. There's a there's
S1: a lot to this one. You know, firstly, Jay-Z earlier
S1: in the night says it's pretty outrageous that Beyonce has
S1: won more Grammys than anyone else, but she's never won
S1: album of the year.
S8: Obviously it's subjective because, you know, it's music and it's
S8: opinion based. But you know, some things, you know, I
S8: don't want to embarrass this young lady, but she has
S8: more Grammys than everyone and never won album of the year.
S8: So even by your own metrics, that doesn't work. Think
S8: about that. The most Grammys never won album of the year.
S8: That doesn't work.
S1: What does it have to do with Taylor Swift? Well,
S1: I mean, Taylor Swift's one for Beyoncé is one zero.
S1: It's not necessarily Taylor Swift's fault, but the fact that
S1: Taylor Swift has one more Grammy Album of the year
S1: awards than every single black woman in the history of
S1: music combined is pretty extraordinary. Uh, and I think, like, again, yeah,
S1: Telstra doesn't decide if she wins a Grammy or not,
S1: but I think you can't disconnect her complete domination of
S1: the music industry, the fact that the Grammys feel like
S1: they have to award what I think is generally accepted
S1: to be a pretty mid album in Midnights, like, I
S1: think everyone generally agrees that like Scissor or Lana, like
S1: had the better album that year. That creates an opening
S1: for a conversation, right? About the grip, the vice like
S1: grip that that Swift has on on music and culture
S1: more broadly. Before we get into more, can we agree
S1: on that bit? Like, do we think it's like this
S1: win of album of the year is a little bit
S1: odd and therefore warrants a bit of a conversation around
S1: what is going on?
S3: Well, I don't know, because yesterday I said I was
S3: kind of going off Taylor Swift and Mel's head nearly imploded,
S3: so I'm just not really sure what I'm allowed to
S3: say anymore or how I'm allowed to say it. And yeah,
S3: I mean, I mean, no, you go because we'll.
S2: Come back to this, but ta ta. I appreciate that Osman,
S2: as a true debater, is trying to set up to
S2: avoid our prestige TV scenario. You're like trying to set
S2: up the terms of the.
S1: Some definitions. Yes. Some definitions.
S2: Yes. I agree with everything you say. The only thing
S2: I would say is, is Taylor winning four Grammys, Beyoncé
S2: winning none. Is it a reflection of Taylor's chokehold on
S2: the culture, or is it a reflection on the award
S2: shows and how they're set up in terms of who votes,
S2: the names of the awards? Who's allowed to enter, how
S2: the record companies lobby? Is it more a reflection of
S2: Taylor's chokehold? Surely it is, but it is also a
S2: reflection of institutional problems with all of these awards.
S1: I think. I think that's right. I think the the
S1: really interesting thing is, and I'll just say this, I
S1: think Taylor emerged from this year's Grammys in a weaker
S1: position than she was going in, in terms of her reputation,
S1: in terms of how she's being perceived by basically everyone
S1: except her diehard fans. I think. I think it's hard
S1: to to be the most powerful person in, in entertainment
S1: because you can only go down. But I thought her
S1: even if it's even if it's entirely even if it's
S1: largely more a problem of the industry and who votes
S1: for these awards, it's still her, right? It's her who
S1: gets positioned as the white woman who's beaten every single
S1: black woman and keeps beating them again and again and again.
S1: Maybe it's not fair, but that is how these things
S1: work and are perceived. But I think beyond that, I
S1: think there's a couple of missteps she made that I
S1: think maybe speak to. Her being in a mindset of
S1: like the perpetual underdog that don't doesn't quite translate as
S1: well when you are the top dog. Her announcing the
S1: album on stage. I'm interested to hear your guys viewing that.
S1: I didn't think that was a smart move.
S3: Yeah, I didn't think so either. I also thought it
S3: spoke to the fact that she was very sure she
S3: was going to win. Um, which, like, never really looks good.
S3: She's like, ah, everyone. Like, here comes the Dead Poets
S3: Society or whatever it's called. It's like, I think that
S3: it just seemed a bit tortured.
S1: Poets department.
S4: Poets is very.
S2: Good.
S3: Oh, captain. My captain.
S4: Um.
S3: But like, it just, I think it just like. So
S3: I had people, a few people slack me from our
S3: office being like. Oh, don't you reckon it's a little
S3: bit like, cringe that she did that like she was.
S3: So she knew the moment was coming and like, you know,
S3: obviously we know what goes into a Taylor album drop.
S3: It's not like I think she said, I'm going to
S3: go backstage and post this, like as if she was
S3: going to go back and post on her personal Instagram. Like,
S3: this is a full label wide global release drop. So like,
S3: she knew she was probably going to win. I was
S3: so confident and there's nothing wrong with that in of itself,
S3: but I think it just felt a bit tasteless. And,
S3: you know, it's it's again, like that was a moment
S3: for her, obviously, but there was a bunch of other
S3: nominees and and like, it just it sucked the energy
S3: out of the room at the Grammys and made the
S3: entire ceremony. Taylor Swift is dropping a new album coming
S3: April 19th.
S2: Yeah, I can't quite understand the the reasoning behind why
S2: she announced like that. You know, she obviously has her
S2: own broad reach and communication channels and platforms. It was
S2: confusing to me that she would use the stage of
S2: the Grammys as an announcement. What do you think? The
S2: kind of like.
S1: I think, I think what it did was I think
S1: what it did was it made, as Thomas said, every
S1: single Grammy story about Taylor's new album, which is potentially
S1: a great marketing tool. But on the other hand, this
S1: is my point is it suffocated the rest of the
S1: conversation about the Grammys. It meant that other artists that
S1: were being awarded or acknowledged just dissipated. And, and, and
S1: and that actually is something that you can blame Taylor
S1: for because she did it for that reason. She did
S1: it to emerge as the dominant narrative out of that great,
S1: calculating move to make a lot of money. But in
S1: terms of being seen as someone who supports the wider industry,
S1: like she's in the most powerful position, she does not
S1: need the Grammys platform to to to push her record.
S1: Yet she chose to monopolize that as well. Which is
S1: why I kind of think people are starting to now
S1: be a little bit more critical or a little bit
S1: more like, oh, this kind of calculating stuff was great,
S1: but now you are the biggest artist in the world.
S1: You don't need to really do that.
S2: Yeah. And that's why I do see it as like
S2: a misstep for her PR, like the backlash to that
S2: and that that narrative would emerge seems to me kind
S2: of obvious. So like, I do feel like that's a
S2: misstep on their behalf, particularly as like this whole year,
S2: Taylor has tried to spend a lot of time speaking
S2: to the Beyonce point, at least performing or like making
S2: symbolic public gestures about supporting other artists. You know, she
S2: was at she was at Beyonce's launch of her tour
S2: film and Beyonce was at the launch of the ER
S2: is tour. And you know, she's backing Sabrina Carpenter, she's
S2: standing up singing for, um, for Olivia Rodrigo. So as
S2: someone who spent kind of, I think over the last
S2: year has doubled down on supporting other female artists, it
S2: did feel like an odd thing to then go and
S2: try and monopolize the show, or at least that be
S2: the outcome of what? What she.
S3: Did. Yeah. And it's funny, like, do you reckon she
S3: would have done the same thing had she, because she
S3: obviously announced the drop on like the lesser award. Like,
S3: would she have done the same thing had she not
S3: won the first award? And like, had she gone on
S3: to win album of the year, do you think she
S3: still would have taken?
S1: I think so, I think it was just like whichever award,
S1: like you might not win album of the you've won
S1: this one, so like let's go. But also who knows,
S1: like maybe the label is told by the Grammys she's
S1: going to do it. Maybe the Grammys are aware of
S1: this happening. Like I wouldn't be surprised. I think your
S1: point about her dancing to Olivia Rodrigo is really interesting, though,
S1: because that's an example of where, like someone like Taylor
S1: really can't win. And so I sort of still feel
S1: sympathy for her in the sense that there's so many
S1: rumors that Olivia's album vampire is about Taylor and there's
S1: this feud. So Taylor wants to show that's not true.
S1: She's supporting a younger artist, good on her. But then,
S1: like the footage of her being the only person at
S1: her table standing up and dancing kind of also looks
S1: like she's making this moment about herself and that that's tricky.
S1: Like you can't win in that situation. But I think
S1: all of these things together, like her announcing the album, dancing,
S1: being in the background all the time, the Celine Dion
S1: like perceived snubs, a little bit of Gus from Matt Bellamy,
S1: who hosts the town podcast out of Out of LA,
S1: who says that he spoke to people in Taylor's camp
S1: and they were aware that her taking that award from
S1: Selena without sort of sharing her with praise or whatever,
S1: was perceived badly, very, very quickly. And so they orchestrated
S1: that backstage photo of them. So, so for anyone who
S1: thinks that we're overanalyzing and that people just, like, make
S1: mistakes and do things, no, no, no, everything you're seeing
S1: is being hyper scripted and planned. And I think that's
S1: why I find it a worthwhile topic to like, interrogate.
S1: But Mel, when we were talking about this yesterday after
S1: the Grammys, I was sharing some of these views and
S1: you said something I thought was really interesting, like, well,
S1: of course the backlash is coming. This is inevitable. She's
S1: so powerful. Can you talk me through that? Like, why?
S1: Why would it be inevitable to see this shift that
S1: we're talking about?
S2: Yeah, I do think, and particularly when you speak to
S2: those points where she can't do right either way, and
S2: when you start to see the narrative that it's always wrong,
S2: that's when you kind of maybe start to think, oh,
S2: the backlash is coming. I think it's what you said before.
S2: She is the most powerful female entertainer at the moment,
S2: and I think media cycles thrive off kind of, you know,
S2: we build her up and people love that. And then
S2: media like to tear her down and people love that.
S2: And I do think it's a cycle that you see
S2: particularly with female stars. And we've seen it for many years.
S2: You know, we.
S4: I've spoken.
S1: With Ben Affleck in Gone Girl. That's basically his speech
S1: in that film is.
S4: Yeah.
S2: And like we've spoken before about the kind of, you know,
S2: we've been revisiting a lot of these kind of stars
S2: from from the 2000 Paris Hilton, um, Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears,
S2: of course, stars that kind of female celebrities that go
S2: up and then get torn down. And I do think
S2: it is particular to the pop cycle as well, because
S2: I think pop stars are. To reinvent themselves. They have
S2: a version of themselves, Britney and her kind of innocent era.
S2: They get destroyed and then they have to rebuild themselves.
S2: Britney in her sexy era. And we've seen Tyler have
S2: to do this before from 2016. Coming back to reputation,
S2: I just think it's kind of like how I guess
S2: it's how capitalism. Holly. Holly might have some more insight
S2: on this. Um, I'm gonna throw it back to Holly Candy.
S2: I guess it's how, like, kind of capitalism works in
S2: a way. Like, it's how they fuel money and media
S2: and power and celebrity. It's this kind of up and down,
S2: and it is gendered. And I like I think it
S2: is particularly gendered. But I mean, it won't surprise me
S2: now if the backlash against Taylor kind of starts in force.
S3: I appreciate that, but at the same time, it does
S3: feel like, especially over the last maybe 12 months, as
S3: Taylor has kind of gone into this almost like new level,
S3: even for her of like total like it's like mass saturation,
S3: you know, the to uh, the album, the high profile relationship.
S3: And it's just been like and we spoke about it
S3: kind of on the pod last year. You know, she's
S3: kind of in this almost like untouchable era. And so
S3: it feels like then if you because there is a
S3: culture of that kind of backlash and that all of
S3: that stuff you said is valid and has happened before,
S3: but then if you do look to have a, I guess,
S3: a valid conversation about the way in which the, you know,
S3: fandom has developed around her and her response to that.
S3: And just, I guess, any kind of critique of Taylor
S3: becomes this thing where it's like you, you're just part
S3: of that problem in that you're, you know, tearing someone
S3: down because they're on top, and then you just get
S3: lost in the noise. Do you want.
S2: Me to go with that?
S4: Yeah. Yeah.
S1: I mean, I feel like you're ready to respond.
S2: All right, well, look. Taylor. Taylor! Taylor! Mitchell! Over here.
S2: Thomas Mitchell has been, like, making this case that, you know,
S2: he's scared of the Swifties. They're gonna destroy him. He
S2: can't speak out against Taylor Swift because God, God, forsake
S2: the armies of Taylor fans that will come after him.
S2: I mean, I just don't buy it. You're on the
S2: podcast now speaking out against Taylor Swift. And you know
S2: what it really reminds me of? Like when obviously the
S2: kind of politics of this are different. But when Ricky
S2: Gervais stands up and does like a stand up set
S2: on Prime television and he says, I can't make the
S2: jokes I want to make anymore, and then he goes and.
S4: Makes the joke compare me to that's what.
S2: You're saying. I can't I can't criticize Taylor anymore. As
S2: you continue to criticize Taylor like there is no I
S2: think you can say what you want about Taylor. And
S2: I mean, my concern is like that overexposed women often
S2: feel that they need to retreat from the limelight. Like
S2: Margot Robbie was just saying it the other day that
S2: she's concerned people are getting sick of her, and after Barbie,
S2: she wants to disappear. Jennifer Lawrence said the same thing
S2: that she was worried people were getting, you know, didn't
S2: want to see her anymore. So she retreated. And like,
S2: I feel like that's what people want Taylor to do
S2: because that's what we've seen really powerful women do is retreat,
S2: and we're not getting that retreat. And then it's like, well,
S2: we're silenced by her fans. And I just I don't
S2: really buy it.
S1: It is it's not going to be great optics if
S1: I weigh in here and say, well, I actually agree.
S1: I agree with Thomas. Um, because I think, I mean,
S1: everything you said is right. Melanie. Also, you know, like
S1: we write, things were criticized by people. That's part and
S1: parcel of the job. So it's not it's not a
S1: great enough excuse for us to be like, oh, we're
S1: too scared to write about it. But at the same time,
S1: it is also true. And it has been true for
S1: a long time that a lot of pop artists, but
S1: Taylor's fan base in particular, are very good at like
S1: organizing and flaming and trolling critics who give her albums
S1: reviews that are less glowing, that there should be people
S1: who kind of talk about these issues and that that
S1: I think has and I think this is what we
S1: saw last year. Like, I don't think Taylor got to
S1: the position she's in now with the biggest tour ever
S1: and complete control of every part of the industry and
S1: music media just by being a good artist. I actually
S1: think the way that she has leveraged and and nurtured
S1: her fan base has been a big part of that,
S1: including to the point of awards, groups, awards, bodies, media
S1: outlets thinking basically the path of least resistance for me
S1: is just to say how great all of this is,
S1: because I'll get heaps of traffic from that, I'll get
S1: viewership from that, and I won't have to deal with
S1: the headache of complaints, you know, and dealing with like angry,
S1: angry Swifties. So I think that is a real force
S1: that is worth talking about. Because what does it mean
S1: if she and her fan base continue to maintain that
S1: dominance on all of this stuff? And I. But I
S1: also think there is something to figure out here. I
S1: was trying to think of a comparison for this, and
S1: I'm sorry to bring it back to politics, but I
S1: think like there's a there's a Hillary Clinton like comment
S1: to be made here in the sense that does Hillary
S1: Clinton or did in the campaign receive unfair coverage because
S1: of her gender and because of the way society is
S1: trained to think about women in positions of power, like 100%?
S1: Does that mean that there aren't valid things to criticize
S1: someone of that level? And I think that's true in
S1: both instances, and I think the difference between the comparisons.
S1: You were making mail about Britney Spears and even like
S1: Jennifer Lawrence is that we're not in the 90s or
S1: 2000 anymore. We're in a slightly different era, and Taylor
S1: Swift has more power than all of those people combined.
S1: So she's very good, I think, at continually trying to
S1: remind people that she's still an underdog. She's just a
S1: young woman trying to make it into a man's world.
S1: That's true to an extent. She's also a billionaire, ruthless
S1: corporate political media entertainment operator that needs to be interrogated
S1: from that perspective.
S2: Yeah, and I completely agree with you. Like, I think
S2: that it is incredibly important to interrogate the systems that
S2: create and sustain power, whether that's in culture or beyond. Like,
S2: I don't think Taylor should be free from criticism for
S2: any extent, whether that's as an artist, whether that's as
S2: a as a performer, or whether that's the role she
S2: plays in the kind of broader entertainment industry. And like,
S2: I think there are many, many valid criticisms to make
S2: about her her politics, her style, her shows. Um, I
S2: guess my kind of only concern is that and of course,
S2: people write those, well, well-thought through pieces. My only concern
S2: is when it seeps into the culture in a more bullying,
S2: nefarious kind of way and you get the kind of
S2: takedowns that aren't these kind of reasonable, thoughtful explorations. They
S2: are just takedowns. It's the kind of ready to go
S2: burn Taylor at the stake, because she didn't hug Celine
S2: Dion when she got her award. You know, I think
S2: it's when it's that and that is what. And I
S2: hope you are right. I hope we have changed like
S2: from the past. Like, I hope this isn't an Amy
S2: Winehouse situation when every single media organization suddenly turns on
S2: a female artist and destroys them, the baying for blood like,
S2: I hope we have developed from that and I hope
S2: we are in a different era, because of course, there's
S2: a place for like, well reasoned and thought through kind
S2: of explorations into into powerful figures.
S1: Yeah, yeah, I was just thinking about how to make
S1: this concrete like, rather than just this being a esoteric
S1: debate about who has the right to criticize Taylor's thinking, like, well,
S1: what would you criticize her for? And, and kind of
S1: I think where I've landed is and it's actually not
S1: really a criticism of her. I think it's really interesting
S1: that there has been basically no one in the music
S1: industry who says it is kind of weird. The last
S1: black woman to win album of the year was Lauryn
S1: Hill in 1999. Beyoncé has never one. Jay-Z brought it up,
S1: and that happens in a year where Taylor wins again.
S1: I think that is an example where people are too scared,
S1: whether they're artists or music industry figures or critics, to
S1: really be vocal and say the Academy has a problem,
S1: the Recording Academy has a problem, the awards have a problem.
S1: The industry has got a problem here because they're scared
S1: of being perceived as saying Taylor didn't deserve that award.
S1: I think that is like an example of where the
S1: discourse has gotten a little bit constrained. And I think
S1: that's not good for like nurturing a generation of like
S1: artists who aren't Taylor. And I think what that might
S1: end up meaning is that unlike what things felt like five,
S1: ten years ago, the next ten years could be the
S1: era of Sabrina Carpenter and Olivia Rodrigo again, also fine artists.
S1: But is that going to be another 20 years where, like,
S1: no black woman wins? That's not good.
S2: Yeah, yeah, that's spot on.
S3: And you, I presume you will both be cheering on
S3: at the years too, or shortly in the next couple
S3: of weeks.
S2: Well can I now maybe, maybe we don't have to
S2: go into this. But if there's I would be interested
S2: to know about what you actually think of Taylor as
S2: an artist. I know we're kind of talking about the
S2: broader things here, but as a songwriter and as a performer,
S2: do you guys actually like her music? Yeah, I think
S2: we both.
S3: I mean, I know we've both been.
S1: On this pod and I've been on the record saying
S1: that she's very, very good.
S3: Yeah, I think she's a super talented artist. Amazing. Like
S3: especially in terms of her songwriting ability. Like that's an
S3: incredible pop song. I find her like personally a bit annoying. Like,
S3: I don't reckon I would hang out with her if, like,
S3: we're in the same crew. I think she might like
S3: be a bit annoying to me. Like, I mean, even
S3: the name of the album, like the torture. I've got
S3: to say.
S1: This is the first album where I'm like, cringing very
S1: hard before it's at, just based on the song titles
S1: and things. But yeah, I mean, like, you know me,
S1: I much prefer to talk about the discourse around the
S1: art than the art itself, which I think is pretty good.
S3: Yeah, but yes, I do like I'm been banging the
S3: album Midnights, not my favorite Taylor album. Um, but.
S2: I find it, like, really interesting as kind of a
S2: different kind of pop star. Like if you look at,
S2: because I did watch the Eras tour, the kind of
S2: three hour bonanza, and even though I'd seen parts of
S2: it on TikTok, I didn't quite realize until I watch
S2: the full thing, like how little Taylor can dance and
S2: how little vocally she is really doing in her music.
S2: And I went back and I watched like the Rihanna
S2: Super Bowl, and even though she was like super pregnant
S2: and not dancing heaps, the girl can still dance. Taylor
S2: Swift's whole show is set up around avoiding her having
S2: to do any dancing. And I just think that's a
S2: really interesting thing, because in the past, pop stars, female
S2: pop stars have had to dance and they still really do.
S2: Like Dua Lipa, for example, is dancing a lot.
S1: But I mean, she's not dancing great either. Let's not
S1: use Dua Lipa.
S4: She's got better. Do you guys remember.
S3: How much Joselyn struggled in episode one of The Idol?
S4: Yeah.
S2: But I do think it's like, yeah, it's a big
S2: show to do when you're kind of the vocal. You know,
S2: vocally it's not, but.
S1: You know what I mean? I. I agree with you.
S1: And I think but I think that also goes to
S1: like this is the subtext of a lot of what
S1: we're saying, like the grip that Taylor has on culture
S1: is really white culture. Right. And she is was a
S1: conservative country artist who's broadened out and gotten older and
S1: is a bit more bold. And she swears now and
S1: talks about sex and all these sorts of things. But
S1: at her core, she wasn't like the Destiny's Child era.
S1: She's not that sexy R&B vibe. She comes from the
S1: sitting on a stool playing a guitar kind of a thing.
S1: So I think you're spot on to pick up on that.
S1: I think there's like a very clear grounding of the
S1: kind of performer and artist she is. And even in
S1: these big stadium tours, she struts around, she does costume changes,
S1: but it's not a Rihanna or Beyonce style pop performance.
S2: Or even like a Kylie Minogue kind of from when
S2: she was kind of doing her major tours earlier on
S2: when she was younger. But, um, yeah. Interesting.
S4: Yeah.
S1: It's good to talk about Taylor fatigue like a week
S1: before she decides to come to Australia and just it's
S1: going to be non-stop like it's going to be it's
S1: going to be a lot if you're if you're a
S1: little bit over Taylor stuff, I think you should book
S1: a holiday or something because it is going to be
S1: relentless over the next two weeks when she's here.
S3: Yeah, the girls are excited, and I'd.
S2: Really like friendship bracelets with you guys, I think. Let
S2: the friendship bracelets.
S1: Yes, I would get around that. If you're organized those
S1: first mail, I would wear one.
S2: I'm not.
S1: All right, it's time for the return of Impress Your Friends,
S1: one of our favorite segment. It's our recommendations section of
S1: the podcast. This time I thought, because it's been a
S1: minute and we've had a big summer watching a lot
S1: of different things, it'd be fun to share something that
S1: we enjoyed over the summer break, something we're watching right
S1: now and something we're looking forward to down the track.
S1: Do you guys want me to go first or do
S1: you want to want to? If you.
S4: Want to go, take it.
S3: Away you go.
S1: One of my fave recent film watchers is this movie
S1: called The Iron Claw, which I think we talked about
S1: when the trailer dropped last year. So A24 film written
S1: directed by Sean Durkin, who did The Nest most recently,
S1: it stars Zac Efron and Jeremy Alan White in their
S1: super jacked era. Uh, it's about the real life story
S1: of the Von Erich wrestling family in the 80s. Like
S1: professional wrestlers, it is a devastating movie. I don't want
S1: to give too much away. The story is there if
S1: you want to read about it. It is very, very sad.
S1: But it is a very beautifully made movie about family,
S1: about America, about, I think, like and Sean Durkin said
S1: this in his interviews about different visions of masculinity and
S1: toxic ones and how you can sort of save yourselves
S1: from it. And I couldn't really help but think about
S1: it in the context of the rise of Andrew Tate
S1: and people like him and the impact that's having on
S1: a generation, and Zac Efron and Jeremy Ellen White making
S1: a movie that seems macho and intense and all about big,
S1: giant fellas ultimately being a movie about how to love
S1: and look after people was quite moving and powerful to me.
S1: I don't know if you guys have seen this one.
S1: Have you guys seen it?
S3: No, I can't believe I haven't because it's obviously got
S3: Jeremy Allen White in it and it's made by A24.
S3: And so I love those two things independently, but I
S3: haven't seen it yet. But it's so funny because one
S3: of my friends who actually is a professional wrestler was like,
S3: I'm going to see the Iron Claw. And I was like, sweet.
S3: And he takes me to outside and he was like,
S3: saw it? So shit, not enough wrestling.
S1: So I reckon this is a lot of people who
S1: love wrestling are not into this movie because they say
S1: they've changed too much. And it's not enough about wrestling.
S1: It's like when I was leaving the cinema, actually, I
S1: heard someone talking about it's like, damn, uh, I thought
S1: that was a sports drama, but actually everyone ex and like,
S1: there was great wrestling stuff. It's a good sports movie
S1: in ways, but it is about kind of, I think,
S1: more cerebral stuff than just fellows beating each other up
S1: in the ring and everyone. When the when the Oscar
S1: nominations came out and everyone was losing their minds about
S1: Bobby only getting eight nominations instead of ten or whatever,
S1: I was furious about The Iron Club, which got zero.
S1: I think Zach is doing something very special in this.
S1: I was pretty upset.
S2: Wow, I haven't seen it, but you've sold it to me.
S2: The last film you told me made you cry past
S2: Lives also also was wonderful. So I'm also I love
S2: the idea of like, you know, everyone thinks they're going
S2: in to see these big, bulky men and then it's
S2: just feelings by covert kind of filmmaking.
S1: Exactly, exactly. Um, the shows that I'm watching now, there's
S1: two of them, but they're pretty different, so I thought
S1: I'd flag them both. This has just hit Amazon Prime
S1: in the past few days. It is the latest version
S1: of Mr. and Mrs. Smith from the 2005 movie, I
S1: think by Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. Very fun, very
S1: silly movie like not amazing, but it's great. This this show,
S1: this sort of retelling, uh, stars Donald Glover and Maya
S1: Erskine from Pen15. It was originally a project for Donald
S1: Glover and Phoebe Waller-Bridge, and she kind of exited, and
S1: that made me a bit sad and stressed because I'm like, oh,
S1: what's going to happen? But this show rules like the
S1: basic premise of this is Donald Glover, Maya Erskine play,
S1: I guess, like assassins or secret agents who get paired
S1: up and have to pretend to be married and solve missions.
S1: They also kind. Start to actually fall in love. The
S1: chemistry is awesome. It's filmed and set in New York.
S1: It is great, like action sequences. It's very thrilling. It's
S1: very fun. And they are killing it. It's like really,
S1: really worth a watch on Amazon Prime.
S3: Yeah, I've been very keen for that one. That was
S3: originally Phoebe Waller-Bridge was attached to that and then she
S3: dropped out. But like, stop.
S1: Talking, you weren't listening. I said all that up.
S2: So I have watched the first episode, and I think
S2: the pairing of them two is so good and I'm
S2: going to keep going. It's very fun and it's a
S2: great starting episode. Like it's not, it's slow, but a
S2: lot of drama too.
S1: I kind of wish it hadn't been a binge drop.
S1: I feel like if this was being dropped, you know,
S1: eight episodes week by week, it'd be something that would
S1: build up steam and it'd be a really fun one
S1: to talk about. But who knows how these streamers make
S1: these decisions.
S3: I find that Donald Glover does like really interesting decision making,
S3: like he's done such a strange career, like from obviously
S3: Childish Gambino and then like doing the community stuff and now,
S3: like this project, he's like, he's someone who I really
S3: respect his.
S4: Choices and.
S2: Is the same director. Is Atlanta.
S1: Right? Yeah. Here on Murai, who is an amazing director,
S1: does such a great job with this one. Yeah. Um,
S1: the other show that I'm watching and this is something
S1: I've just gotten into, it's it's not out currently, like
S1: it's a reality show, but all seasons are on Paramount Plus,
S1: which is where I'm watching. It's called The Traitors. This
S1: is a reality show. I don't know if either of
S1: you guys have played the game Mafia before. It's like
S1: a party game where you all sit around a table.
S1: Some people call it wolves and or werewolves and like,
S1: you have like eight people or whatever. And there's a,
S1: there's someone who's, uh, decides who's like the mafia or
S1: the killers. It's three people decide there are three people
S1: chosen to do that, and everyone else is a villager.
S1: And you have to, like, secretly vote to kill people.
S1: And the villagers have to decide who's the mafia and
S1: punish them. It's like a fun party game. I'm doing
S1: a pretty bad job of explaining anyway.
S4: They've been that time.
S1: They've taken that idea and put it in real world.
S1: In in the UK version, which I'm watching, it's set
S1: in this like Scottish castle, and it's played out over
S1: the course of like two weeks, where they all live
S1: together and do challenges together and have to decide who
S1: to kill and who to banish. I've watched the first
S1: season of the Australian version, which is amazing. Like if
S1: you like The Mole or Survivor, think about survivor, but
S1: without the physical element, just the psychological game playing. That
S1: is what this show is. It rules. It is so good.
S2: What are they competing for? Is it cash.
S4: Prize? Oh, there's a.
S1: There's a cash prize. Yeah. It's like $250,000 or something.
S3: It's so funny. I think when it came out on
S3: ten it like did really bad numbers and like kind
S3: of like disappeared without like any kind of ripple and then. Yeah,
S3: like it's obviously sitting on Paramount now. Um, it seems
S3: like such a show you would be into. I can
S3: imagine you on the actual show.
S4: Itself probably.
S3: Winning or being out first week. That would be like
S3: the two options for you.
S1: Honestly, I could not, um, I could not think of
S1: a better way to spend a couple of weeks of
S1: my life than on this show. I would love to
S1: be on the show. I think it'd be very good
S1: on the show. The Australian version is hosted by Roger Corser,
S1: which is awesome. He does a great job. He plays
S1: it very camp. And in the second season, Guyton Grantley
S1: is like a contestant, which is a fun underbelly reunion.
S1: But one of the great things is on the first season,
S1: people can like, lie about what they do, right? And
S1: like most people have boring jobs so they don't lie.
S1: But on the first season, there's this guy, Nigel Brennan.
S1: I don't know if you guys remember that name. He's Australia's, uh,
S1: only living, like, longest surviving hostage or something. He was
S1: taken hostage in Somalia for, like, two years and now
S1: is a professional hostage negotiator and, like, crisis management consultant.
S1: And he tells everyone he's like a university, like, um,
S1: like pastoral care worker or whatever. And you just see
S1: him pull all the strings. It's really, really fun.
S3: Yeah. That's cool. I've seen you. I've seen you, like
S3: famously posting about the show. I'm like, I can't believe
S3: this guy's watching traitors.
S1: Like, he's. It's great. It's great. I think you guys
S1: should watch him. We should talk about it down the track.
S1: Maybe in advance of the next Australian season. The final
S1: thing that I wanted to, to shout out that I'm
S1: excited about coming up, and this is for all the
S1: freaks who thought Saltburn was a good film. If you
S1: want to watch some real class based thrilling drama, Get
S1: Excited about Ripley, which is coming out on Netflix. It's
S1: based on Patricia Highsmith novel The Talented Mr. Ripley, one
S1: of my favorite films of all time, talked about enough.
S1: It stars Andrew Scott. So all you Fleabag heads who
S1: don't have anything to talk about other than the how
S1: much you love the hot priest should get on it
S1: as well. It's written directed by Steve Zaillian, who's the
S1: Oscar nominated writer behind Schindler's List, Moneyball, Gangs of New York,
S1: The Irishman, Let's fucking go, Ripley, it's coming. It's in
S1: black and white. I'm very ready.
S2: I cannot wait, I'm so excited.
S3: Yes, we're very excited about that one. I think I
S3: shouted that out at the end of last year is
S3: my my biggest one to watch for 2024. Um, but yes,
S3: that sounds great. I. Shall I go next? Yeah.
S1: Thomas, you take it away.
S3: Okay, cool. Well, I my kind of summer watch was
S3: a strange one, and it's not a new show, but
S3: I do feel like it's a show that didn't make
S3: much of an impact when it came out. And it's
S3: bupkis on binge. So bupkis is the Pete Davidson show. It's, uh,
S3: very much like an autobiographical show, um, where basically Pete
S3: Davidson is playing himself, and he kind of moves home
S3: to live with his mother. Um, he's living in her
S3: basement after he gets some kind of bad personal news.
S3: And it weirdly like, I really like Pete Davidson. So
S3: that's the kind of disclaimer if you don't, if you
S3: and some people really don't like him. So if you
S3: don't like Pete Davidson, then probably won't like this show.
S3: But I find his delivery and his whole shtick actually
S3: kind of funny. Um, and, and it's almost like, and
S3: I know some people probably roll their eyes at this comparison,
S3: but it's almost like entourage for a new generation in
S3: that it has that voyeuristic like inside the kind of
S3: like famous circle world, but without like a lot of
S3: obviously the problems associated with entourage. And it's got like,
S3: you know, a 2024 lens and it's not really glamorous.
S3: Like he's living in Staten Island in a basement. Um,
S3: I find it, like, very funny. And it's also got
S3: an amazing cast. So Edie Falco as, like, as his mother. Oh, well,
S3: I think, you know, famously Carmel Soprano. Then you've got
S3: Brad Garrett. Uh, and the best part probably is, like
S3: Joe Pesci plays the grandfather. Oh, that's cool, that's cool.
S3: Like Joe Pesci does. Like, nothing like he doesn't. He
S3: doesn't work anymore. So he's like, fucking amazing in it.
S1: Brad Garrett is like Raymond's brother from Everybody Loves Raymond.
S4: Yeah, yeah.
S3: He's like, is his name Brad? And everybody loves Raymond.
S3: It's not important anyway. And then on top of that,
S3: it's got, um, it's like a stacked cast like al Gore,
S3: Jon Stewart, like a weird celebrity cameos that you would
S3: expect from a show like this. But also it's just. Yeah,
S3: I think it's like weirdly heartwarming. Like every episode is
S3: very clearly based on a real thing that happened to
S3: Pete Davidson, often intercut with, like, you know, pictures and
S3: videos of him like as a young child. Uh, so
S3: I find that very funny. That's bupkis on binge. Um,
S3: if that is your speed, is there an Ariana? No,
S3: but she's mentioned a lot, and they joke a lot
S3: about his short lived engagement. And then, like, his mom
S3: is obsessed with the song. Thank you.
S4: Yeah, yeah. She's always crying.
S3: When he comes. Like he comes down for breakfast. She's
S3: like playing it. He's like mom. Like, seriously. She's like.
S3: It's very catchy. She's a very talented songwriter. That's that's.
S4: Really good that that.
S2: Show really went under the radar, like I remember when
S2: it came out, but then no one was really like.
S4: Is it on?
S3: That's on binge?
S1: See, this is the thing. There's great shows, but no
S1: one knows where they are.
S3: Uh, and in terms of what I'm watching currently and
S3: what I think everyone should give a crack, it's actually
S3: out today. How's that for timely? That's one day on Netflix. Um,
S3: so that is based on the David Nicholls novel. Um,
S3: they previously made a movie about it, but essentially it's we.
S1: Nearly got through this without a book reference. On the
S1: first one back.
S3: I actually thought about, uh, one of my references being
S3: Salman Rushdie's new book, but I'll be in that. Um, yeah,
S3: it's basically based on the David Nicholls book. A couple who,
S3: you know, meet every day on, on the same date
S3: every year for 15 years, um, really kind of beautiful
S3: love story. And most importantly, it's got Leo Woodall in it,
S3: as in like Jack from The White Lotus. Uh, he's
S3: very charming. So I thought that was quite a it's
S3: quite a cute rom com. Valentine's day next week it's
S3: out on Netflix. That sounds.
S1: Great. There was a, um, uh, Anne Hathaway movie based
S1: on that book, too, which is not very good, I
S1: don't think. Correct.
S3: Yes, this is better than that. And just lastly, what
S3: I'm looking forward to is challenges. Um, the film, we've
S3: been waiting for that one for a while. So that
S3: is out April 26th.
S1: The Sexy Tennis one featuring Zendaya by Luca Guadagnino. Let's
S1: go look at this so much. Look forward to already.
S1: And Mel hasn't even gone yet.
S4: Oh, I haven't.
S2: Even gone my summer watch is poor things. Bye. Off
S2: you go, Greek director Yorgos Lanthimos. Thank you so much.
S2: Big day for the Greeks on this pod. And by
S2: Australian screenwriter Tony McNamara, who did the great. It's won
S2: a lot of awards already, and I'm sure it will
S2: clean up at the Oscars as well. This is the
S2: one with Emma Stone in it. Have you guys seen it?
S4: I have.
S3: Not yet, I have.
S1: I really liked it. I mean, I love yoga, I
S1: love his wacky, you know, sensibility. Emma was amazing. Mark
S1: Ruffalo was really great. I really enjoyed this film.
S2: Yeah, Willem Dafoe in it as well. It's the kind
S2: of take on the Frankenstein myth. Um, Emma Stone's playing
S2: this 19th century woman her corpses brought back to life.
S2: It's so kooky. It sounds it, but it's really very
S2: funny and clever and it's interestingly shot as well. Like
S2: it is a point of difference to some of these
S2: other films as well. While if you do lovey stuff,
S2: you'll you'll definitely like this as well. Just a master
S2: of filmmaking. And I thought that was a true delight.
S1: Great recommendation, really good film.
S2: In terms of what I'm watching right now. Look, I've
S2: kind of got into the ABC documentary nemesis, the.
S4: How.
S2: The politics kind of recap of the you're shaking your
S2: head at me. Okay.
S1: No, I got in trouble because I made a post
S1: about this, and then a lot of my friends turned up,
S1: worked on this show. So I'm sorry. I've heard great
S1: things about this show. I just like I don't. We
S1: just live through these guys, right? I don't really want
S1: to revisit it.
S2: I know, but you're not really revisiting it. What you're
S2: revisiting is how they're revisiting it. Like that's. And there's
S2: actually one thing that I love most about it is
S2: that every episode for the new prime minister, they get
S2: everyone to describe the Prime Minister in one word, and
S2: I would watch it just for watching everyone try to
S2: think pretty good.
S1: I feel like we should do that with random people
S1: we work with on this podcast.
S3: Yes, I was so keen.
S4: Yeah, I.
S2: Know, let's do a whole EP.
S3: Cantankerous.
S2: And I've also.
S4: I'm right here.
S1: I'm right here. Yeah.
S3: I'm looking at him.
S2: Well, meaning.
S4: Insufferable lazy. Okay, good.
S2: Um, and also I'll just shout out, uh, part of
S2: the family, obviously, but I'm watching maths for maybe the
S2: first time. I know Thomas is to. It's become what
S2: we talk about. Oh, hang on. Sorry.
S1: I think that's just your bonus check from nine coming in.
S4: Right. So.
S3: On TV on the greatest channel in the greatest country
S3: on earth.
S2: Yeah yeah yeah. Just getting better every season. But it
S2: is a lot of fun. It's the first time I've
S2: watched it through. It's kind of insane. I'm a bit
S2: shocked about how some of the things are still going,
S2: like how they're allowed, but, um, yeah, I mean, I'm
S2: sure we'll pick that up in other episodes.
S1: Don't be so sure. But we might.
S2: Yeah, well, when we do our reality TV, our competition episode.
S2: You're going on trader. I'm going to MAFs. Um, what
S2: I'm looking forward to. We flagged up before Dua Lipa's
S2: new album due out this year. I think she's having, like,
S2: she's kind of shone at all these awards ceremonies. She's
S2: rocking the red carpet, she's doing great performances. Houdini, I think,
S2: is really catchy. And if it's a taste of what's
S2: to come, I'm looking forward to, well, Taylor's going to
S2: be a bit sad and mournful, a bit in her
S2: Emily Dickinson era. Dua Lipa is going to be in
S2: her fun Party Girl era, which I'm looking forward to.
S1: Yeah, that's probably one of my most anticipated releases of
S1: the year, and Big Do ahead. Seen her a couple
S1: of times, had a great time and I thought Houdini
S1: like it took a bit to grow on me, but
S1: she's collaborating with like Tame Impala. That production is fun
S1: and a bit psychedelic and out there, and she's trying
S1: to dance like she seems to be really going for
S1: it and pushing herself, which is really all you can
S1: ask for from an artist.
S2: Yeah, yeah. And aren't we all?
S3: Yeah. And then as soon as she gets to the top,
S3: I'll be there.
S4: Ready?
S1: A great way to close the loop on our first episode.
S1: Back of the year, guys. Thomas. Mel. Really fun. Really
S1: happy to be doing the show with you again. Uh,
S1: hope you had a good time.
S2: Yeah, I'll be making my friendship bracelets.
S4: See ya.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Margaret Gordon.
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
S1: a friend! I'm Osman Farooqui.
UU: See you next week!