1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,280 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:10,280 S1: This is morning edition I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Wednesday, 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:16,599 S1: December 10th. Our mastheads have discovered that a number of 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:21,080 S1: sex offenders have committed crimes in our communities after serving 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,880 S1: their time in prison. And here's the thing. They committed 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,520 S1: these crimes while under a supervision order. This little known 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,320 S1: order issued by a court is meant to keep a 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,760 S1: ring fence around these known offenders, to keep tabs on 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,680 S1: them and monitor their movement. But it has also served 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,720 S1: to keep crimes by these violent predators largely hidden due 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,800 S1: to a veil of secrecy created by legislation that protects them. Today, 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,959 S1: senior reporter Chris Vedelago on the failure of these secrecy 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,960 S1: laws and the vexed issue of whether the anonymity protection 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,760 S1: of known sex offenders should be removed. 15 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,720 S2: So, Chris, you have just written about these relatively mysterious 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,320 S2: and little known supervision orders. So can you just start 17 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:08,920 S2: by telling us what these are? 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,000 S3: So basically what happens is someone who commits a sex 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,720 S3: crime and is convicted of that crime, they do like 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,360 S3: tests on them assessments, and they determine this person is 21 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,920 S3: a continuing risk to the community. So after they get 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:22,760 S3: out of prison, basically a judge orders them to go 23 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,679 S3: under a supervision order, which basically limits where they can go, 24 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,280 S3: what they can do, where they can live, um, and 25 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,000 S3: attaches conditions like you have to wear a GPS bracelet 26 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,680 S3: or an alcohol detection bracelet if they've got alcohol and 27 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,320 S3: drug problems. It's basically to create a ring fence around 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,440 S3: these people to try to ensure they don't just disappear 29 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,720 S3: in the community and offend again and their controversial orders, 30 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,600 S3: because the people have been convicted, they've finished their sentence, 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,120 S3: but the justice system is still inside their life. 32 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:51,720 S2: Okay. Well, we're going to get into that a little 33 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:53,400 S2: bit later. But first off, can you just tell me 34 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,280 S2: how many people are actually on these orders in Victoria 35 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,200 S2: and do they actually exist in other states or territories. 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,880 S3: At any given time, in any year? There's somewhere between 37 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,610 S3: about 120 and 130, in Victoria. People like this who 38 00:02:05,610 --> 00:02:07,410 S3: are considered enough of a risk that they need to 39 00:02:07,410 --> 00:02:11,209 S3: be watched. This system, this post sentence system, exists pretty 40 00:02:11,210 --> 00:02:14,130 S3: much in every state and territory in various incarnations. They're 41 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:16,690 S3: not all the same, but the intention of each one 42 00:02:16,690 --> 00:02:20,290 S3: is to ensure that these people aren't allowed to go 43 00:02:20,290 --> 00:02:23,050 S3: down the slippery slope to offending again without intervention. 44 00:02:23,570 --> 00:02:26,130 S2: Okay, now this is a pretty dark story that you've 45 00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:28,410 S2: just covered. It's the kind of material that can really 46 00:02:28,450 --> 00:02:30,209 S2: sort of make you look behind your back as you're 47 00:02:30,210 --> 00:02:32,730 S2: walking down the street, right? So why did you even 48 00:02:32,730 --> 00:02:34,049 S2: want to look into this? 49 00:02:34,610 --> 00:02:37,889 S3: Look, I've been reporting about sex offender system in Victoria 50 00:02:37,889 --> 00:02:40,010 S3: for a long time, and it's really hard to get 51 00:02:40,010 --> 00:02:42,890 S3: a handle on because the legislation, the various pieces of 52 00:02:42,889 --> 00:02:45,170 S3: it that Serious Offenders Act, which I wrote about in 53 00:02:45,169 --> 00:02:48,489 S3: this story or the sex Offenders Register, are shrouded in secrecy. 54 00:02:51,410 --> 00:02:54,130 S3: A lot of the times it's basic stats and information 55 00:02:54,130 --> 00:02:57,050 S3: about these systems are not made publicly available. They're wrapped 56 00:02:57,050 --> 00:03:00,410 S3: in a cloak of secrecy. And I started to see 57 00:03:00,450 --> 00:03:03,570 S3: various places, problems with it. There was offending going on 58 00:03:03,570 --> 00:03:06,730 S3: that wasn't being reported because we weren't able to report it. 59 00:03:06,770 --> 00:03:09,370 S3: Names were being redacted, so we didn't know who these 60 00:03:09,370 --> 00:03:13,330 S3: people were yet. What brought me to this particular case 61 00:03:13,330 --> 00:03:17,050 S3: was about a year ago, Victoria Police put out a 62 00:03:17,130 --> 00:03:20,170 S3: media release saying, this man, Theo Briggs, is on the run. 63 00:03:20,210 --> 00:03:22,930 S3: He's a registered sex offender. He's on a supervision order, 64 00:03:22,970 --> 00:03:25,690 S3: you know, asking the public if you see this man 65 00:03:25,690 --> 00:03:28,570 S3: along with a photo they published, please report it. Three 66 00:03:28,570 --> 00:03:31,410 S3: days later, they emailed us and said, look, he's been captured. 67 00:03:31,410 --> 00:03:35,050 S3: Please remove all the material about his escape that you've published. 68 00:03:35,370 --> 00:03:38,210 S3: I thought, wow, that's this. This must be what, the 69 00:03:38,210 --> 00:03:40,810 S3: third or fourth one this year. Who is this guy? 70 00:03:40,810 --> 00:03:43,250 S3: And I googled him and I saw his history. And 71 00:03:43,250 --> 00:03:46,450 S3: then he just kind of disappeared into the court system. 72 00:03:46,690 --> 00:03:48,810 S3: And then about a year later, I see his name 73 00:03:48,810 --> 00:03:50,770 S3: pop up on a list and he's pleading guilty. And 74 00:03:50,770 --> 00:03:54,050 S3: I thought, wow. And attached to it was a list 75 00:03:54,050 --> 00:03:57,970 S3: of 50 odd other charges that he'd racked up. And 76 00:03:57,970 --> 00:04:00,090 S3: I thought, what is this? So I went to court 77 00:04:00,290 --> 00:04:02,050 S3: and that's how the process started. 78 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:07,580 S2: Okay, now we're going to get into this man's particular case. 79 00:04:07,580 --> 00:04:09,260 S2: And it is a disturbing one in just a moment. 80 00:04:09,260 --> 00:04:11,540 S2: But first of all, you know, let's just rewind there 81 00:04:11,540 --> 00:04:13,260 S2: to the beginning. You know, when you first found out 82 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:16,020 S2: about this, because the law actually prevented you from reporting 83 00:04:16,020 --> 00:04:18,700 S2: on this particular case. So what did you do? Like 84 00:04:18,740 --> 00:04:21,020 S2: how did you eventually come to write about it and 85 00:04:21,020 --> 00:04:24,620 S2: actually name this particular violent man this reoffender? 86 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:27,380 S3: So basically I saw I saw that he was going 87 00:04:27,380 --> 00:04:29,740 S3: to court, you know, concluding a proceeding where he was 88 00:04:29,740 --> 00:04:31,900 S3: pleading guilty. And so I went to the county court 89 00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:33,980 S3: media team and said, I want to come to the hearing. 90 00:04:33,980 --> 00:04:36,380 S3: I'd like a link. And there was some toing and 91 00:04:36,380 --> 00:04:38,100 S3: froing with the judge about whether or not I would 92 00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:40,820 S3: get a link. And then I showed up on the 93 00:04:40,820 --> 00:04:43,700 S3: audio visual link to watch it. And basically at the 94 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:46,020 S3: start of the proceeding, the judge almost kind of addressed 95 00:04:46,020 --> 00:04:48,180 S3: me and said, you know, I understand the media is 96 00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:50,940 S3: in the courtroom now. The media needs to understand under 97 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:54,020 S3: the Serious Offenders Act, these are all things you cannot report. 98 00:04:54,020 --> 00:04:56,220 S3: So while I was free to be in the courtroom, 99 00:04:56,220 --> 00:04:58,619 S3: I couldn't do what a reporter does on a daily 100 00:04:58,620 --> 00:05:01,380 S3: basis for just about any other crime in the state 101 00:05:01,380 --> 00:05:03,620 S3: of Victoria, which is take notes and put it in 102 00:05:03,620 --> 00:05:07,340 S3: the newspaper. This person was charged with whatever. I couldn't 103 00:05:07,339 --> 00:05:10,100 S3: report any of that because the act said that what 104 00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:13,980 S3: was going on inside that courtroom was unreportable. And I 105 00:05:13,980 --> 00:05:15,820 S3: went to the hearing. I got offline, and then I 106 00:05:15,820 --> 00:05:18,660 S3: basically started reading the legislation, and I realized there was 107 00:05:18,660 --> 00:05:21,659 S3: actually a way I could make a special application that 108 00:05:21,660 --> 00:05:25,140 S3: might let me publish what the outcome of this matter 109 00:05:25,140 --> 00:05:25,659 S3: would be. 110 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:28,900 S2: Okay. Well, just take us briefly through that, because even 111 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:31,180 S2: though you know it is a legal matter, many listeners 112 00:05:31,180 --> 00:05:32,900 S2: would think, well, why do I want to hear about this? 113 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:35,620 S2: But you told me right before recording, this was actually 114 00:05:35,620 --> 00:05:38,820 S2: the first time that a challenge has been mounted under 115 00:05:38,820 --> 00:05:43,539 S2: this legislation in Victoria, and that even our own lawyers 116 00:05:43,540 --> 00:05:46,180 S2: at the paper were sort of thinking, wow, this is 117 00:05:46,180 --> 00:05:47,860 S2: going to be an uphill battle for you to get 118 00:05:47,860 --> 00:05:50,740 S2: this exception for the first time in Victoria. 119 00:05:51,180 --> 00:05:55,100 S3: Yeah. And it's literally called the Exceptional Circumstances Test. And 120 00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:57,580 S3: in order to to get the right to publish this 121 00:05:57,620 --> 00:05:59,260 S3: or to give permission to publish this, we had to 122 00:05:59,300 --> 00:06:02,540 S3: prove we had exceptional reason to basically ask for an 123 00:06:02,540 --> 00:06:06,140 S3: order overriding the legislation. and our initial opinion was we're 124 00:06:06,140 --> 00:06:08,580 S3: never going to win this. It's worth a try, but 125 00:06:08,580 --> 00:06:11,100 S3: we're never going to win this. The test is so high, 126 00:06:11,540 --> 00:06:13,580 S3: and when I spoke to people at the court, they 127 00:06:13,580 --> 00:06:16,580 S3: couldn't find any record of anyone ever making an application 128 00:06:16,580 --> 00:06:19,739 S3: in Victoria under the act. Seven years on, our lawyers 129 00:06:19,740 --> 00:06:22,020 S3: couldn't find any case law on it. There was stuff 130 00:06:22,020 --> 00:06:24,060 S3: on the margins that we could kind of quote in 131 00:06:24,060 --> 00:06:26,580 S3: our favour, but no one had ever tried this before. 132 00:06:26,580 --> 00:06:29,300 S3: The system had just been ticking along in virtual silence 133 00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:30,219 S3: for seven years. 134 00:06:30,500 --> 00:06:32,620 S2: Okay, well, then you're the first person in Victoria you've 135 00:06:32,620 --> 00:06:35,140 S2: looked under this rock, so to speak, and you won 136 00:06:35,140 --> 00:06:38,540 S2: the case against everyone's expectations. So tell us what you 137 00:06:38,540 --> 00:06:40,339 S2: have learned about Theo Briggs. 138 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:43,460 S3: What I found out was that basically, he's been a 139 00:06:43,460 --> 00:06:47,100 S3: criminal his entire adult life, committing very serious crimes, including 140 00:06:47,100 --> 00:06:51,020 S3: home invasions and in contravention of supervision order. In the past, 141 00:06:51,060 --> 00:06:56,260 S3: absconding from special sex offender facilities, committing assaults, weapon possession, 142 00:06:56,540 --> 00:07:00,620 S3: obtaining and holding like violent pornography, all this sort of stuff. 143 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:03,460 S3: So I learned I mean, I knew most about his 144 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:07,030 S3: previous history. What I didn't didn't know was why he 145 00:07:07,029 --> 00:07:10,790 S3: was placed at a residential rehab facility in inner Melbourne. 146 00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:13,070 S3: This is a dangerous man who's been in and out 147 00:07:13,070 --> 00:07:15,870 S3: of these special sex offender containment facilities that we have 148 00:07:15,870 --> 00:07:18,430 S3: in the state's north, right. Places that are designed to 149 00:07:18,470 --> 00:07:20,590 S3: house these guys. He's been in and out of them. 150 00:07:20,830 --> 00:07:24,470 S3: All of a sudden, in early April 2024, they decide 151 00:07:24,470 --> 00:07:26,830 S3: to place him inside the community at a rehab center. 152 00:07:27,390 --> 00:07:29,990 S3: And I didn't understand why he was there. And what 153 00:07:29,990 --> 00:07:32,470 S3: I subsequently found out was they approved him to go there. 154 00:07:32,470 --> 00:07:35,750 S3: For some reason, they never told us. But, um, he 155 00:07:35,750 --> 00:07:38,550 S3: leaves that facility in November and he goes on a 156 00:07:38,590 --> 00:07:42,870 S3: basically a 36 hour crime spree that included two home invasions, 157 00:07:42,870 --> 00:07:47,190 S3: stealing a car, holding an Uber driver at knifepoint, kidnapping. 158 00:07:47,590 --> 00:07:50,710 S3: And then he accost this woman in the park and 159 00:07:50,710 --> 00:07:54,430 S3: strangles her. And she survives. But he basically, he kidnapped 160 00:07:54,430 --> 00:07:58,030 S3: her effectively, and he attempted to strangle her. And if 161 00:07:58,030 --> 00:08:01,390 S3: it hadn't been for a gentleman in the neighborhood hearing 162 00:08:01,390 --> 00:08:04,110 S3: her scream, we don't know how it would have ended. 163 00:08:04,510 --> 00:08:06,790 S2: And I believe a little bit more detail about this 164 00:08:06,790 --> 00:08:09,990 S2: woman's experience came out in court. Is that right? It 165 00:08:09,990 --> 00:08:12,910 S2: sounds like everyone's sort of worst nightmare. 166 00:08:13,670 --> 00:08:16,350 S3: This woman was walking through Albert Park, you know, minding 167 00:08:16,350 --> 00:08:19,070 S3: her own business, going home, going, going shopping. I don't know, 168 00:08:19,070 --> 00:08:21,710 S3: but she stopped at a small little kiosk because it 169 00:08:21,710 --> 00:08:23,630 S3: was raining to get out of the rain. And this 170 00:08:23,630 --> 00:08:25,990 S3: man just kind of came out of came out of 171 00:08:25,990 --> 00:08:31,350 S3: nowhere and started talking to her. And she didn't really 172 00:08:31,350 --> 00:08:34,110 S3: want to engage with him. So he takes her backpack 173 00:08:34,110 --> 00:08:35,630 S3: and he basically says, you're going to come with me. 174 00:08:35,630 --> 00:08:37,990 S3: I've got your backpack. She walks for a little bit saying, 175 00:08:38,030 --> 00:08:39,830 S3: you know, please give it back, please give it back. 176 00:08:39,830 --> 00:08:42,510 S3: And he basically starts cursing at her and threatening her 177 00:08:42,710 --> 00:08:46,510 S3: and says, don't run, don't scream. I don't want to 178 00:08:46,510 --> 00:08:49,030 S3: hurt you. Don't do those things. And she runs and 179 00:08:49,030 --> 00:08:51,150 S3: she screams and he grabs her and he punches her 180 00:08:51,150 --> 00:08:53,429 S3: in the shoulder. He puts her on the ground and 181 00:08:53,429 --> 00:08:56,230 S3: he basically puts his hands around her throat and she's 182 00:08:56,230 --> 00:08:59,870 S3: begging him to stop. And at that point he stops. 183 00:08:59,870 --> 00:09:02,750 S3: They get up and they're walking. He's basically saying, you're 184 00:09:02,750 --> 00:09:05,390 S3: coming with me. And they walk to a certain point. 185 00:09:05,390 --> 00:09:08,400 S3: And this man that had heard the screams was wandering 186 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,440 S3: the park found them, and Briggs basically said, all right, well, 187 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,520 S3: you go with this guy, he'll take you back to 188 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,160 S3: his car. And then he he runs off and he disappears. 189 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,270 S3: For another, I think it was another 12 or 14 190 00:09:19,270 --> 00:09:23,240 S3: hours before he's seen in a residential street, a few 191 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,840 S3: suburbs over knocking on people's doors randomly early in the morning, 192 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,400 S3: and someone calls 000 and the police grab him. But 193 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,560 S3: none of that, none of none of that sequence of 194 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,959 S3: events we were able to know until this court application 195 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:36,839 S3: was successful. 196 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:54,160 S2: We'll be right back. Okay, now that's scary enough. But 197 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,040 S2: as you have just reported, Theo Briggs is actually just 198 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,280 S2: one of 25 offenders who've been convicted of committing serious 199 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,160 S2: sex crimes and violent acts while under the supervision orders 200 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,599 S2: since 2018. So what do we know about those cases? 201 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,720 S3: Very, very little. Very little. I've got six other applications 202 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:18,080 S3: for people I suspect have committed serious violence or serious 203 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,640 S3: sex crimes while on supervision orders. We but we really 204 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,560 S3: don't know because most of the time these people are 205 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,280 S3: given pseudonyms and their information is never published by the judge. 206 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,360 S3: They have several. There's several reasons in the legislation why 207 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,080 S3: this secrecy has to exist this way. Some of it 208 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,120 S3: is about the protection of the victims. Although in the 209 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,960 S3: state of Victoria we can't report the identities of sex 210 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,800 S3: crime victims anyways. But mostly it has to do with 211 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,160 S3: ensuring the best possible chance of rehabilitation for these offenders. 212 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,120 S3: And the idea that your identities are kept secret and 213 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,040 S3: their their crimes are kept secret. Therefore, they'll be more 214 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,439 S3: likely to engage with rehabilitation. But the reality is, while 215 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,120 S3: the supervision system helps stop offenders from committing crimes, it's 216 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,960 S3: not foolproof. And it needs a hard look at the 217 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,850 S3: way it is working. Because 25 people that were supposed 218 00:11:08,850 --> 00:11:13,170 S3: to be being watched by government agencies, intimately watched, went 219 00:11:13,170 --> 00:11:15,930 S3: on to commit a serious crime. And those crimes have 220 00:11:15,929 --> 00:11:21,370 S3: victims and their crimes not just talking like they went 221 00:11:21,370 --> 00:11:23,370 S3: off and smoked some meth. Like, these are serious sex 222 00:11:23,370 --> 00:11:25,890 S3: and violence crimes that these people committed, and they were 223 00:11:25,890 --> 00:11:27,890 S3: supposed to be being watched by the government. 224 00:11:28,330 --> 00:11:31,210 S2: Okay. So you've walked us through this argument that, you know, 225 00:11:31,370 --> 00:11:34,970 S2: there's a necessity to keep these people their identities a secret. 226 00:11:34,970 --> 00:11:37,650 S2: It's going to hurt their chances of being rehabilitated. Foremost 227 00:11:37,650 --> 00:11:41,370 S2: amongst those reasons. What did Theo Briggs's defense team argue? 228 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:45,850 S3: Oh, they basically said that Theo's safety and welfare in 229 00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:48,929 S3: prison would be placed in jeopardy if it was widely 230 00:11:48,929 --> 00:11:52,929 S3: known that he'd committed sex crimes in the past, which 231 00:11:53,370 --> 00:11:56,730 S3: the judge didn't agree with as a substantial enough argument 232 00:11:56,730 --> 00:11:59,850 S3: to defeat what we were trying to do. His secondary 233 00:11:59,850 --> 00:12:04,090 S3: argument was that us being able to publish this would 234 00:12:04,370 --> 00:12:09,410 S3: basically hurt Briggs's family's and friends, their feelings, their reputation, 235 00:12:09,450 --> 00:12:13,010 S3: what have you, which the judge didn't accept either. I mean, 236 00:12:13,050 --> 00:12:16,010 S3: it's the defense lawyer had a lot to say about 237 00:12:16,010 --> 00:12:19,010 S3: the way media reports on sex crimes, and none of 238 00:12:19,010 --> 00:12:22,530 S3: it was was favorable that we specialize. We do this, 239 00:12:22,570 --> 00:12:25,130 S3: you know, we make a spectacle of it. I don't 240 00:12:25,130 --> 00:12:27,170 S3: believe that's the case in the way that The Age 241 00:12:27,170 --> 00:12:30,730 S3: reports this stuff. And clearly, the judge found there was 242 00:12:30,730 --> 00:12:33,530 S3: a public interest in doing what we did and the 243 00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:37,730 S3: feedback we've gotten inside and outside the system from the public, 244 00:12:37,730 --> 00:12:41,290 S3: from people connected to the judiciary and connected to the 245 00:12:41,290 --> 00:12:43,250 S3: justice system has been overwhelmingly positive. 246 00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:45,370 S2: Okay. Now I'm just going to be devil's advocate here 247 00:12:45,370 --> 00:12:48,650 S2: for just a moment and ask you, you know, couldn't 248 00:12:48,650 --> 00:12:51,610 S2: it be argued that these guys have or women, if 249 00:12:51,610 --> 00:12:54,090 S2: that's the case, have served their time? Yes, they are 250 00:12:54,090 --> 00:12:55,850 S2: on an order because the state says that they're a 251 00:12:55,850 --> 00:12:58,930 S2: safety risk, but they've served their prison sentence. They should 252 00:12:58,929 --> 00:13:00,410 S2: be due their anonymity. 253 00:13:01,090 --> 00:13:04,290 S3: Look, lots of lots of, um, like Liberty Victoria type 254 00:13:04,290 --> 00:13:07,209 S3: people make that argument and, look, there's something to be 255 00:13:07,210 --> 00:13:10,730 S3: looked into there, but at the same time, we have 256 00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:13,170 S3: to balance. It's a balancing act, right? And and people 257 00:13:13,170 --> 00:13:16,050 S3: I've interviewed have said it's a balancing act. Understanding the 258 00:13:16,050 --> 00:13:21,010 S3: risk these people pose versus the importance of protecting the public. Um, 259 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:26,210 S3: the system in this form has has not been challenged constitutionally. 260 00:13:26,850 --> 00:13:29,810 S3: And any kind of challenges that have kind of fallen 261 00:13:29,809 --> 00:13:32,330 S3: by the wayside, like the system exists for a reason. 262 00:13:32,330 --> 00:13:35,610 S3: And it's it's pretty much accepted that this has to 263 00:13:35,610 --> 00:13:38,250 S3: be done, and these people can't be left to their 264 00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:42,650 S3: own devices. It's no longer feasible because they they reoffend. 265 00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:46,050 S3: Some of them, it's a minority of them seriously reoffend. 266 00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:48,730 S3: I mean, the group that monitors these, the government agency 267 00:13:48,730 --> 00:13:52,050 S3: that monitors them in Victoria is called the Post-sentence authority. Now, 268 00:13:52,050 --> 00:13:55,050 S3: they say recidivism for serious offenses is about 2%, which 269 00:13:55,050 --> 00:13:57,810 S3: is a really strong figure. But at the same time, 270 00:13:57,809 --> 00:14:01,570 S3: we're not talking about people jaywalking. The recidivism, the crimes 271 00:14:01,570 --> 00:14:04,530 S3: that they go on to commit is very serious. As 272 00:14:04,809 --> 00:14:08,329 S3: Theo Briggs's rampage, for lack of a better word, through 273 00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:11,900 S3: Saint Kilda and elsewhere a year ago. Goes to show. 274 00:14:12,580 --> 00:14:14,900 S2: So, Chris, is there an argument to be made that 275 00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:17,580 S2: should people who have been convicted of violent crimes such 276 00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:21,620 S2: as these, who then re-offend while they're on these supervision orders, 277 00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:24,420 S2: should they simply not be granted their anonymity? Like, might 278 00:14:24,460 --> 00:14:27,380 S2: that be where the line should be drawn in future? 279 00:14:27,860 --> 00:14:30,540 S3: It could be. And what we're hoping is that this 280 00:14:30,540 --> 00:14:33,500 S3: order that we obtain from the judge on Friday will 281 00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:35,980 S3: help that that the next time that this goes up 282 00:14:35,980 --> 00:14:38,740 S3: to court, we can go in there with this order 283 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:41,660 S3: and say, look, we would like this person's name, or 284 00:14:41,660 --> 00:14:43,460 S3: we would like to be able to publish the details 285 00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:47,420 S3: of this person's offending. Here's here's the precedent, effectively, because 286 00:14:47,420 --> 00:14:49,660 S3: it's been shown there's a public interest to this. And 287 00:14:49,660 --> 00:14:51,460 S3: I'm very interested to see what comes out of the 288 00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:54,340 S3: six cases that I've asked for, because I suspect some 289 00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:57,300 S3: of them might not be too serious and others might 290 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:59,380 S3: be very concerning. 291 00:15:00,140 --> 00:15:01,100 S4: And I have to ask you. 292 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:04,860 S2: About something that you mentioned to me just before recording, 293 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:07,900 S2: and you've been reporting for about 18 years, and you 294 00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:12,260 S2: told me that this win on Friday is probably the 295 00:15:12,260 --> 00:15:14,900 S2: most important date you've had as a journalist. Why? 296 00:15:15,420 --> 00:15:19,580 S3: Oh, because you got to reveal information that public needed 297 00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:21,580 S3: to know and it's been so hard to get at. 298 00:15:21,620 --> 00:15:23,980 S3: Like I've mentioned, I've been trying to report on this 299 00:15:23,980 --> 00:15:27,060 S3: space a long time, and there's just so many dark 300 00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:29,220 S3: corners to it. So to have a win like this, 301 00:15:29,260 --> 00:15:31,620 S3: it felt really good. Like I was it felt like 302 00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:34,420 S3: I was I was adding adding something like, look, a 303 00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:36,100 S3: lot of the reporting I do is about the underworld. 304 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:41,100 S3: It's very interesting. It's exciting, but it's not particularly consequential. 305 00:15:41,820 --> 00:15:45,260 S3: This I found to be very important. And the response 306 00:15:45,260 --> 00:15:47,820 S3: that we've gotten from members of the public who didn't 307 00:15:47,820 --> 00:15:50,940 S3: know about the system or have concerns about this, but 308 00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:55,940 S3: they aren't being articulated like, that's why I think it's important. 309 00:15:55,940 --> 00:15:59,020 S3: And because it started conversations inside the justice system and 310 00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:02,300 S3: the government about this system, because so many people don't 311 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:05,180 S3: know that it exists or don't know how it operates. 312 00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:13,830 S2: Well, Chris, we're so lucky that you have dug into this. 313 00:16:13,870 --> 00:16:16,790 S2: It's certainly something I had never heard about before. So 314 00:16:16,950 --> 00:16:18,830 S2: thank you so much for your time. 315 00:16:19,190 --> 00:16:19,750 S3: Thank you. 316 00:16:26,190 --> 00:16:30,190 S2: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Josh towers, 317 00:16:30,190 --> 00:16:33,870 S2: with technical assistance by Cormac Lally. Our executive producer is 318 00:16:33,870 --> 00:16:37,590 S2: Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To 319 00:16:37,630 --> 00:16:40,430 S2: listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow 320 00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:43,830 S2: the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen 321 00:16:43,830 --> 00:16:48,030 S2: to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to 322 00:16:48,070 --> 00:16:54,710 S2: support independent journalism, visit the page or smh.com.au. Subscribe. And 323 00:16:54,710 --> 00:16:56,670 S2: to stay up to date, sign up to our Morning 324 00:16:56,670 --> 00:16:59,230 S2: Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most 325 00:16:59,230 --> 00:17:03,350 S2: important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in 326 00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:07,590 S2: the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.