1 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,840 S1: The state lieutenant governor of Texas has called it the 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,200 S1: biggest theft from the people of Texas in the history 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,640 S1: of Texas. He was referring to the work of Australian 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:18,560 S1: gamblers who scooped up a 95 million American dollar jackpot. 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,840 S1: And this is the kicker. They did it by buying 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,760 S1: up nearly every single lottery ticket. And they say by 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,880 S1: following all the rules. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're 8 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,599 S1: listening to the Morning Edition from the Age and The 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,319 S1: Sydney Morning Herald today, investigative reporter Patrick Begley on the 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,080 S1: Australians who took down the Texan lottery. It's March the 10th. 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,560 S1: Welcome back to the podcast, Patrick. 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,159 S2: Thank you so much for having me on. 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,400 S1: Okay, I've got to tell the listeners, you and I 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,360 S1: have been talking about this for months. So it's a 15 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,520 S1: very exciting day when this is finally published and we 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,290 S1: can speak. So you've got to start off by telling everybody. 17 00:01:00,330 --> 00:01:03,730 S1: Who are these men that pulled this off? It's an 18 00:01:03,730 --> 00:01:05,690 S1: eclectic group, to say the least. I mean, you can 19 00:01:05,690 --> 00:01:09,050 S1: imagine these men being played by, like, Awkwafina or Rihanna. 20 00:01:09,050 --> 00:01:11,610 S1: Were they women? And it was in some sort of like, 21 00:01:11,650 --> 00:01:13,729 S1: Ocean's 11 type film, right? 22 00:01:14,090 --> 00:01:19,650 S2: Maybe not in physical resemblance, but, uh, but yeah, they're, 23 00:01:19,650 --> 00:01:24,610 S2: they're a funny mix in that they are professional gamblers. 24 00:01:25,370 --> 00:01:30,410 S2: They are very mathematically numerate, but at the same time, 25 00:01:30,410 --> 00:01:34,770 S2: they're operating in this world, which is not high finance 26 00:01:34,770 --> 00:01:39,450 S2: on Wall Street or in some downtown financial center. They're 27 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:45,850 S2: not in actuarial studies. They're applying their mathematical skills to gambling. 28 00:01:45,850 --> 00:01:51,770 S2: And so their industry is lotteries, horse races, sports matches, 29 00:01:51,890 --> 00:01:56,370 S2: roulette wheels, pretty much any form of gambling they're interested in. 30 00:02:01,510 --> 00:02:04,510 S2: So the two main people to start off with, and 31 00:02:04,510 --> 00:02:08,190 S2: these were actually first identified by the Houston Chronicle were 32 00:02:08,190 --> 00:02:12,350 S2: Bernard Mantelli. He's the son of a Melbourne bookmaker. He 33 00:02:12,550 --> 00:02:16,630 S2: learns at his father's feet about horse racing, greyhound racing. 34 00:02:16,910 --> 00:02:20,149 S2: Then he becomes a financial trader at Deutsche Bank, but 35 00:02:20,150 --> 00:02:23,790 S2: then leaves and ends up as a professional gambler himself. 36 00:02:23,990 --> 00:02:27,430 S2: He's got his own betting pool company, another company devoted 37 00:02:27,430 --> 00:02:32,070 S2: to analytics. He's doing business in London and he's looking 38 00:02:32,110 --> 00:02:37,109 S2: around the world for opportunities. He's also in business with 39 00:02:37,150 --> 00:02:40,950 S2: the second main character in this story, who's also an Australian, 40 00:02:41,510 --> 00:02:46,550 S2: and that's Jelko Renegades. So Bernard Mantelli grew up in Melbourne, 41 00:02:46,669 --> 00:02:51,630 S2: Renegades grew up in Hobart, and he very early on 42 00:02:51,669 --> 00:02:53,869 S2: had an interest in gambling. So when he was still 43 00:02:53,870 --> 00:02:57,110 S2: a university student, he was interested in things like card 44 00:02:57,110 --> 00:03:00,800 S2: counting and he teamed up with David Walsh, who many 45 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,480 S2: people now know as the founder of Mona the Museum 46 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,000 S2: of Old and New Art in Hobart. That museum is 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,839 S2: really built on gambling wealth. So Jelco ran a guy 48 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,600 S2: and David Walsh as young guys, they're interested in card counting. 49 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:20,000 S2: They're interested in other things like Keno, and they're looking 50 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,680 S2: for any small opportunity or weakness in a game to 51 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:28,960 S2: exploit anything where there's a subtle advantage. And their modus 52 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,840 S2: operandi is essentially to see a subtle, small advantage and 53 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,120 S2: then put as much money into it as possible. So 54 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,120 S2: it's really about the volume and energy. He ends up 55 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,560 S2: leaving Australia to go to London as well. He sets 56 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,640 S2: up in London, and he earns this reputation as one 57 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,760 S2: of the biggest gamblers in the world. David Walsh at 58 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,720 S2: an investment conference, he talked about the syndicate that he 59 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,420 S2: and Ranjeet are in. And in 2022 he said that 60 00:03:57,420 --> 00:04:01,460 S2: they bet about $10 billion every year. 61 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:08,340 S1: Okay, but let's get into really the weakness that they identified, 62 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:10,420 S1: that it's the heart of what they pulled off. So 63 00:04:10,420 --> 00:04:13,460 S1: what was the weakness that they saw and what did 64 00:04:13,460 --> 00:04:17,460 S1: they actually do? How did these men actually manage to 65 00:04:17,500 --> 00:04:19,340 S1: pull this off? Can you sort of take us back 66 00:04:19,339 --> 00:04:21,820 S1: to the beginning and then walk us through the main steps? 67 00:04:22,260 --> 00:04:26,460 S2: So Bernard Mantelli calls this schoolboy maths, and what he 68 00:04:26,460 --> 00:04:29,300 S2: really means by that is that if you look at 69 00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:33,140 S2: the Texas Lottery, there are a certain number of possible outcomes. 70 00:04:33,180 --> 00:04:38,340 S2: There's six balls chosen, 1 to 54, and that generates 71 00:04:38,339 --> 00:04:44,419 S2: about 25.8 million different possibilities. Tickets cost a dollar. So 72 00:04:44,460 --> 00:04:47,620 S2: in theory, if you wanted to buy up all the tickets, 73 00:04:48,060 --> 00:04:52,060 S2: you would spend $25.8 million. Now, a lot of the 74 00:04:52,060 --> 00:04:54,820 S2: time this doesn't make sense. Even if you've got the 75 00:04:54,820 --> 00:04:58,030 S2: money to do that kind of thing. Because I mean, 76 00:04:58,070 --> 00:05:00,590 S2: the jackpot has to be a certain size for it 77 00:05:00,589 --> 00:05:03,589 S2: to be worth your while. And what was special about 78 00:05:03,589 --> 00:05:06,349 S2: Texas is that the jackpot had been building over a 79 00:05:06,350 --> 00:05:10,310 S2: really long time. It was a record stretch with no 80 00:05:10,310 --> 00:05:13,070 S2: one winning. And so every time there's a draw and 81 00:05:13,070 --> 00:05:16,310 S2: no one wins, the jackpot rolls over. And every time 82 00:05:16,310 --> 00:05:19,270 S2: someone buys a ticket, a percentage of the ticket price 83 00:05:19,270 --> 00:05:23,310 S2: feeds into the jackpot. So over months and months and months, 84 00:05:23,310 --> 00:05:26,310 S2: the jackpot is swelling. And then it gets to a 85 00:05:26,310 --> 00:05:30,270 S2: point where it's much higher than 25 million. It's like 86 00:05:30,310 --> 00:05:34,990 S2: 70 million. And then these professional gamblers, they go on 87 00:05:34,990 --> 00:05:38,750 S2: a rampage and they buy heaps of tickets. It drives 88 00:05:38,750 --> 00:05:44,950 S2: that jackpot even higher to an eventual $95 million. So 89 00:05:44,950 --> 00:05:49,870 S2: the schoolboy maths essentially is is the jackpot higher than 90 00:05:49,870 --> 00:05:53,229 S2: the amount you would need to spend to buy up 91 00:05:53,230 --> 00:05:56,320 S2: all the tickets and to essentially guarantee yourself a win. 92 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,240 S3: Someone in North Texas, $1 million richer, a few million 93 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,040 S3: dollars richer. How about $95 million? 94 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,000 S4: The Texas Lottery says the winning ticket for last night's 95 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,440 S4: lotto drawing was bought in Colleyville. The $95 million prize 96 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,120 S4: was the biggest jackpot in the country and Texas Lottery's 97 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,040 S4: biggest prize in more than 12 years. 98 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,320 S2: Now this team, they bought up nearly all the tickets, 99 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,839 S2: more than 99%. So there was still a small risk 100 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,440 S2: that they could be very unlucky. But the hard part 101 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,440 S2: in all of this was the logistics. 102 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,920 S1: So take us through the logistics. I mean, as a 103 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,040 S1: layperson listening to this, I don't even understand how can 104 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,200 S1: someone physically buy more than 25 million lottery tickets? 105 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,240 S2: So you have to physically buy the ticket and have 106 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,400 S2: it printed in order for it to be valid. So 107 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:53,920 S2: Bernard Mantelli, he sees this opportunity. Money comes from Jelko Rana.k. 108 00:06:54,140 --> 00:06:57,339 S2: So he's got that bankroll, but he also needs relationships 109 00:06:57,339 --> 00:06:59,900 S2: with people on the ground to be able to actually 110 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:03,820 S2: process the purchase order. And that's actually where the third 111 00:07:03,820 --> 00:07:06,979 S2: Australian in this story comes in. He's a guy called 112 00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:11,540 S2: Ade Lepchenko. Living in Malta, which is a gambling capital 113 00:07:11,540 --> 00:07:14,260 S2: in Europe. And he said that he knew some of 114 00:07:14,260 --> 00:07:17,980 S2: these companies that could help them on the ground in Texas. 115 00:07:18,380 --> 00:07:21,180 S2: What was interesting about Ade Rep Cenco is that in 116 00:07:21,220 --> 00:07:23,700 S2: researching this story, I actually realized that he had this 117 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:29,300 S2: previous life in Australia, where he dated the supermodel Miranda Kerr, 118 00:07:29,420 --> 00:07:32,500 S2: who was on her way to becoming very famous. He 119 00:07:32,500 --> 00:07:37,220 S2: also spent time in jail, convicted of a fraud. So 120 00:07:37,220 --> 00:07:41,300 S2: flash forward a rep Cenco. He's living a new life 121 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:44,660 S2: in Malta and he offers to help this syndicate put 122 00:07:44,660 --> 00:07:48,940 S2: them in touch with some lottery retailers. And so in 123 00:07:48,940 --> 00:07:54,310 S2: the end, the syndicate finds four different retailers. and then 124 00:07:54,310 --> 00:07:57,590 S2: their job is essentially to pump out as many tickets 125 00:07:57,590 --> 00:08:02,670 S2: as possible. Bernard Mantelli flies to Texas to oversee the operation. 126 00:08:02,870 --> 00:08:05,310 S2: And then you've got these four. Print sites across the 127 00:08:05,310 --> 00:08:10,110 S2: state that are essentially working 24 hours a day. People 128 00:08:10,310 --> 00:08:14,870 S2: are manning ticket terminals that were, in many cases just ordered. 129 00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:17,910 S2: I mean, I think one retailer ordered ten terminals to 130 00:08:17,950 --> 00:08:22,510 S2: be delivered in a single day. And this is, you know, 131 00:08:22,550 --> 00:08:25,190 S2: considering the fact that most retailers only have 1 or 2. 132 00:08:25,270 --> 00:08:26,430 S2: It's a huge number. 133 00:08:26,830 --> 00:08:28,550 S1: And so at this point, I really want to ask 134 00:08:28,550 --> 00:08:32,350 S1: what sort of risk. Had the syndicate taken on because 135 00:08:32,350 --> 00:08:36,550 S1: they had spent something like American 25 million. Dollars on 136 00:08:36,550 --> 00:08:40,270 S1: the tickets. They bought more than 99% of the tickets. 137 00:08:40,270 --> 00:08:42,270 S1: But there was still a chance that someone outside the 138 00:08:42,270 --> 00:08:44,550 S1: syndicate could win, right? And all of that money would 139 00:08:44,550 --> 00:08:45,270 S1: be lost. 140 00:08:45,910 --> 00:08:50,270 S2: Yeah. And they, in fact, spent more than 25 million 141 00:08:50,550 --> 00:08:54,520 S2: because they'd spent some money in previous draws leading up 142 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,930 S2: to that mega jackpot right at the end. On 22nd 143 00:08:58,929 --> 00:09:02,360 S2: April 2023. So they'd really outlaid a lot of money. 144 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,160 S2: And that's what Jelco ran a Guyot's stressed to me. 145 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,719 S2: He said this endeavor involved considerable risk, and that substantial 146 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,719 S2: money had been wagered on top of the 25 million 147 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:19,080 S2: spent in that final draw. The way I understand it, though, 148 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,520 S2: is that certain ticket combinations can be very unlucky for 149 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:28,400 S2: the group if they are popular with regular players. Apparently one, 150 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,480 S2: two three, four, five, six is a popular choice, and 151 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,240 S2: the group knows that if they have the same winning 152 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,840 S2: ticket as someone else, the prize gets split. And because 153 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,760 S2: they've invested so much money, as soon as they're starting 154 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,360 S2: to have to split the prize, that's when they can 155 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,800 S2: start running into real trouble. So for that reason, certain 156 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,980 S2: ticket combinations were avoided. And yes, that did open a 157 00:09:54,980 --> 00:09:57,340 S2: certain degree of risk for them, even if they bought 158 00:09:57,340 --> 00:10:00,980 S2: more than 99% of combinations, if they hadn't bought the 159 00:10:00,980 --> 00:10:04,700 S2: full 100%. There was still a chance that they could 160 00:10:04,700 --> 00:10:08,060 S2: be having a very unlucky day, and that would mean 161 00:10:08,059 --> 00:10:10,060 S2: losing tens of millions of dollars. 162 00:10:17,580 --> 00:10:18,540 S1: After the break. 163 00:10:19,420 --> 00:10:22,380 S5: I think it was probably the most logistically ambitious thing 164 00:10:22,380 --> 00:10:25,220 S5: I've probably done. I think it wasn't the best maths 165 00:10:25,220 --> 00:10:28,820 S5: we've ever done. It's schoolboy math, but you know, schoolboy 166 00:10:28,820 --> 00:10:31,660 S5: maths is just the very beginning of getting something like 167 00:10:31,660 --> 00:10:32,260 S5: that done. 168 00:10:39,820 --> 00:10:42,819 S1: Okay, so that's what's happening on the gambler's side. But 169 00:10:42,820 --> 00:10:45,100 S1: I really want to know what's happening at this point 170 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:48,860 S1: in the minds, perhaps, of just regular people in Texas 171 00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:51,030 S1: who are buying their tickets, because you've written that in 172 00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:53,990 S1: the lead up to this incredible draw. You know, the 173 00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:57,350 S1: jackpot is soaring because no one's winning week after week. 174 00:10:57,350 --> 00:11:01,350 S1: It's growing. And that it, quote, fed on players hopes, rituals, 175 00:11:01,350 --> 00:11:05,550 S1: addictions and superstitions. So I guess, tell us, what is 176 00:11:05,550 --> 00:11:08,230 S1: it like for those millions of gamblers across Texas? You know, 177 00:11:08,270 --> 00:11:11,150 S1: they're rocking up at tiny convenience stores. And are they 178 00:11:11,190 --> 00:11:13,870 S1: like pinning their hopes on these $1 tickets? 179 00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:17,429 S2: Yeah. I mean, I guess people play the lottery for 180 00:11:17,630 --> 00:11:20,550 S2: different reasons. You know, for some people, it might be 181 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:24,270 S2: an impulse. For other people, it might be a ritual. 182 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:28,030 S2: They buy the same numbers every single week and their 183 00:11:28,030 --> 00:11:31,150 S2: special numbers to them. For other people, it might even 184 00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:34,550 S2: be part of a gambling problem. And I think that 185 00:11:34,590 --> 00:11:37,750 S2: lotteries are may be seen as more social or more 186 00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:42,030 S2: communal than other forms of gambling, because you're not going 187 00:11:42,070 --> 00:11:44,750 S2: to a casino, which has got a safe and there's 188 00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:48,230 S2: house money, you're buying your ticket at your newsagent or 189 00:11:48,230 --> 00:11:51,650 S2: your petrol station or wherever, and there's a feeling that 190 00:11:51,650 --> 00:11:54,570 S2: everyone's in it to win it and that everyone's up 191 00:11:54,570 --> 00:11:58,410 S2: against each other. And really, it's just a matter of luck. 192 00:11:58,410 --> 00:12:00,410 S2: So yeah, there's a lot of reasons why people would 193 00:12:00,410 --> 00:12:04,929 S2: be buying these tickets. There is increased interest as the 194 00:12:04,929 --> 00:12:08,530 S2: jackpot gets higher. So when there was that record drought 195 00:12:08,530 --> 00:12:12,730 S2: with no winner and the jackpots inching up, inching up, 196 00:12:12,730 --> 00:12:16,929 S2: then that does start to drive more interest. Certainly the 197 00:12:16,929 --> 00:12:20,230 S2: Lottery Commission on the day of the draw, the 22nd 198 00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:23,170 S2: of April, it said that players were turning out in 199 00:12:23,170 --> 00:12:26,610 S2: droves for the exclusive chance at winning the largest jackpot 200 00:12:26,650 --> 00:12:29,010 S2: on the continent, or whatever it was at the time. 201 00:12:29,490 --> 00:12:32,290 S2: But I spoke to someone who said that they never 202 00:12:32,290 --> 00:12:35,210 S2: really bought into that narrative, and this is a woman 203 00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:38,569 S2: called Dawn Nettles. She's in her 70s. She has been 204 00:12:38,570 --> 00:12:41,050 S2: playing the Texas Lottery since it was founded in the 205 00:12:41,050 --> 00:12:44,210 S2: early 90s, and she's been writing about the Texas Lottery 206 00:12:44,370 --> 00:12:47,849 S2: for pretty much as long. She has an independent newsletter 207 00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:52,020 S2: that she publishes, which is devoted to the Texas Lottery 208 00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:56,660 S2: and Nettles. When she could see the jackpot really spiking 209 00:12:56,660 --> 00:12:59,540 S2: in those final days. She told me that she knew 210 00:12:59,580 --> 00:13:03,260 S2: that something was up, that this was far beyond what 211 00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:06,780 S2: any regular Texan would buy. So she's watching the jackpot 212 00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:10,020 S2: go up in real time, and she thinks to herself, 213 00:13:10,020 --> 00:13:13,699 S2: someone's buying up all the combinations, she said. It sticks 214 00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:15,780 S2: out like a sore thumb. 215 00:13:15,980 --> 00:13:18,740 S6: Well, I knew that they were selling all the combinations 216 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:21,220 S6: and that's what I need. I'm in favor of a 217 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:24,660 S6: lottery and always have been. However, I'm only in favor 218 00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:27,939 S6: of a lottery if it's fair. And there's nothing fair 219 00:13:27,940 --> 00:13:29,540 S6: about the Texas lottery. 220 00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:32,980 S2: And her question then was, well, why isn't the Lottery 221 00:13:32,980 --> 00:13:36,620 S2: Commission stepping in and doing something about it? But she 222 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:40,020 S2: made a prediction on her website on the Saturday. She 223 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:42,300 S2: said the jackpot will be won tonight. 224 00:13:42,780 --> 00:13:48,190 S1: That's incredible. And then of course, we get to April 22nd, 2023. 225 00:13:48,750 --> 00:13:49,790 S1: This is the draw. 226 00:13:50,950 --> 00:13:54,510 S7: Get ready to play the games of Texas for Saturday, 227 00:13:54,550 --> 00:14:01,949 S7: April 22nd. Tonight's Lotto Texas jackpot is an estimated $95 million. 228 00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:03,830 S7: The first number is. 229 00:14:03,870 --> 00:14:06,750 S1: Tell us about the elation, the mood in the room 230 00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:10,869 S1: as the syndicate who are in on this operation realized 231 00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:11,990 S1: that they had won. 232 00:14:12,630 --> 00:14:15,590 S2: Yeah, I know, so I don't know exactly who was 233 00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:20,110 S2: in the room, but Bernard Marinelli says that he was 234 00:14:20,110 --> 00:14:23,190 S2: in a hotel room with about 40 or so people, 235 00:14:23,230 --> 00:14:27,470 S2: I guess, members of the team somewhere just outside of Austin, 236 00:14:28,070 --> 00:14:31,870 S2: and they're watching the live draw and it's really packed 237 00:14:31,870 --> 00:14:37,670 S2: in the room, he said. People can barely move. But 238 00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:39,550 S2: not only are there people in the room, there's also 239 00:14:39,550 --> 00:14:43,390 S2: all these cardboard boxes, about 150 or so boxes. And 240 00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:47,570 S2: in those boxes are the tickets, Because every ticket had 241 00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:50,370 S2: to be catalogued so that it could be found easily 242 00:14:50,370 --> 00:14:53,730 S2: and checked. So there are these envelopes or binders full 243 00:14:53,730 --> 00:14:56,610 S2: of tickets, and they're in boxes. And the boxes. There's 244 00:14:56,610 --> 00:14:59,130 S2: a picture of a picture of them and they are 245 00:14:59,210 --> 00:15:03,410 S2: nearly to the ceiling. They're watching the live draw. The 246 00:15:03,410 --> 00:15:07,810 S2: team at about a bit after 10:00. And the numbers 247 00:15:07,810 --> 00:15:11,050 S2: come through one after the other, one after the other. 248 00:15:11,090 --> 00:15:18,010 S7: The first number is 52 and the second number is 30. 249 00:15:18,490 --> 00:15:21,050 S2: They're kind of joking. Oh, I think we've got that number, 250 00:15:21,090 --> 00:15:24,250 S2: you know, because they almost certainly have. But then there's 251 00:15:24,250 --> 00:15:26,770 S2: this race to actually find the winning ticket and they 252 00:15:26,770 --> 00:15:29,250 S2: find the right box and they find the right envelope. 253 00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:31,530 S2: And then the right envelope has got a thousand tickets 254 00:15:31,530 --> 00:15:33,570 S2: in it. And they're leafing through those. Someone says, oh, 255 00:15:33,570 --> 00:15:35,770 S2: I think I've got it. No, no, no, that's not 256 00:15:35,770 --> 00:15:38,730 S2: quite right. The last number's wrong. And then finally, Bernard 257 00:15:38,730 --> 00:15:41,650 S2: Marinelli says they've got it. They've got the winning ticket 258 00:15:41,650 --> 00:15:44,970 S2: and it's passed around the room. People are touching it. 259 00:15:44,970 --> 00:15:47,740 S2: They're there, kissing it there, handling it like a trophy. 260 00:15:47,980 --> 00:15:52,500 S2: And there's this real mood of elation. But what I 261 00:15:52,540 --> 00:15:55,980 S2: found interesting was that Bernard Marinelli says that the real 262 00:15:55,980 --> 00:15:58,860 S2: excitement for him, though, was not finding the winning ticket. 263 00:15:58,860 --> 00:16:03,140 S2: It was actually printing the last ticket because he says 264 00:16:03,780 --> 00:16:07,700 S2: the draw is random. What he could control was the 265 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:11,660 S2: print operation. And so the real thrill for him was 266 00:16:11,660 --> 00:16:15,780 S2: the process and the successful completion of the printing. 267 00:16:16,420 --> 00:16:18,580 S5: And I call out, I think we've got that one. 268 00:16:18,780 --> 00:16:20,580 S5: And the next number is eight. And I say, I 269 00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:23,100 S5: think we've got that one as well. So there was 270 00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:25,980 S5: a bit of sort of exuberance and comedy because we'd 271 00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:29,100 S5: achieved our goal. We had got the tickets through the system. 272 00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:32,660 S5: I think it was probably the most logistically ambitious thing 273 00:16:32,660 --> 00:16:35,500 S5: I've probably done. I think it wasn't the best maths 274 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:38,220 S5: we've ever done. Like, you know, when it leaked out 275 00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:40,540 S5: on social media, everyone said, I thought about that, I 276 00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:43,380 S5: thought about that. And indeed many people have said, oh, 277 00:16:43,420 --> 00:16:46,230 S5: look at that Jackpot. It's bigger than the number of permutations. 278 00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:49,870 S5: It's schoolboy math. But, you know, schoolboy maths is just 279 00:16:49,870 --> 00:16:52,430 S5: the very beginning of getting something like that done. 280 00:16:56,790 --> 00:16:59,510 S1: And of course we have to ask, is it actually 281 00:16:59,510 --> 00:17:00,670 S1: legal what they did? 282 00:17:01,310 --> 00:17:06,150 S2: Yes. Well that's the US $95 million question. I should 283 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:10,750 S2: say that the group actually took home $57 million because 284 00:17:10,750 --> 00:17:14,190 S2: the 95 you needed to sign up to receive that 285 00:17:14,190 --> 00:17:17,390 S2: over the course of 30 years. They said, okay, well, 286 00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:20,629 S2: we want it upfront. We'll take 57 million as a 287 00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:25,030 S2: cash lump sum. The question of whether it's legal. So 288 00:17:25,030 --> 00:17:27,830 S2: there's a court case on at the moment, an electrician 289 00:17:27,830 --> 00:17:32,109 S2: called Jerry Reed who played the lottery for years. He's 290 00:17:32,109 --> 00:17:36,150 S2: a regular Texan guy. He won the jackpot after the 291 00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:40,950 S2: syndicate won theirs. And because the jackpot, once it's won, 292 00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:44,050 S2: it starts off again at, I think $5 million is 293 00:17:44,050 --> 00:17:48,169 S2: where it starts. Jerry Reed's contention is that if the 294 00:17:48,170 --> 00:17:51,810 S2: syndicate didn't win, then he would have stood to win 295 00:17:51,850 --> 00:17:55,730 S2: a lot more because he had the next winning ticket. 296 00:17:57,170 --> 00:18:01,090 S2: Jerry Reed's case really centers on how the bets were placed. 297 00:18:01,130 --> 00:18:04,889 S2: It's a really big part of it. And and Reed's contention, 298 00:18:04,890 --> 00:18:08,490 S2: or his lawyer's contention, is that the bets were invalid 299 00:18:08,850 --> 00:18:11,650 S2: and that they were part of what he called an 300 00:18:11,690 --> 00:18:16,530 S2: illegal game rigging scheme. And Bernard Marinelli says all rules 301 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:19,090 S2: were followed in the placing of the bets. And a 302 00:18:19,090 --> 00:18:22,210 S2: lawyer for the syndicate has also said that all rules, 303 00:18:22,290 --> 00:18:24,810 S2: laws and regulations were followed. 304 00:18:25,690 --> 00:18:28,290 S1: Wow, what a story, Patrick. 305 00:18:30,330 --> 00:18:34,410 S2: It was it was a wild ride covering it, partly 306 00:18:34,410 --> 00:18:38,850 S2: because more and more information kept coming out. So I 307 00:18:38,850 --> 00:18:42,130 S2: was very excited to be able to actually talk to 308 00:18:42,660 --> 00:18:48,780 S2: Marinelli and Rana.k, especially because Rana.k really doesn't give interviews. 309 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:50,700 S2: A lot of the time. He's been called the Loch 310 00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:54,540 S2: Ness Monster. There are no photos of him. I looked 311 00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:57,580 S2: in the system that we have here at work. The oldest, 312 00:18:57,619 --> 00:19:00,140 S2: the most recent photo we have of him is 15 313 00:19:00,140 --> 00:19:03,180 S2: years old. So yeah, he's a hard guy to get 314 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:05,980 S2: Ahold of. But my colleague Kate McClymont has been writing 315 00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:11,340 S2: about him for decades. He's an enduring interest for The 316 00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:15,340 S2: Sydney Morning Herald because he's a guy from Hobart that 317 00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:19,020 S2: moved to Sydney and then eventually London, but he's Australian 318 00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:21,899 S2: and he is one of the largest gamblers in the world. 319 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:26,660 S1: That's incredible. Well, it looks like you've captured the Loch 320 00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:29,820 S1: Ness Monster, at least of gambling. And this story, it 321 00:19:29,820 --> 00:19:32,060 S1: has to be said it was five months in the 322 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:35,100 S1: making for you. So thank you so much, Patrick, for 323 00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:35,859 S1: your time. 324 00:19:36,859 --> 00:19:38,100 S2: Thank you. Always a pleasure. 325 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,440 S1: In other news today, the more than $80 billion was 326 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,240 S1: wiped from the Australian share market yesterday, prompted by fears 327 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,880 S1: that oil and gas production out of the Middle East 328 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,640 S1: will be dramatically curtailed. Australia's Esafety commissioner has signalled she 329 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,920 S1: will force Big Tech to remove offshore porn companies from 330 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,840 S1: online apps. And how rich is Angus Taylor? The new 331 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,919 S1: opposition leader's wealth portfolio has been revealed in our mastheads. 332 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,200 S1: Go to our websites The Age or smh.com.au to find 333 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:21,919 S1: out more. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our 334 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,960 S1: executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen 335 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,920 S1: by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, 336 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,520 S1: follow The Morning Edition and leave a review for us 337 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,679 S1: on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.