1 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,559 S1: Why, six years on, is Donald Trump peddling yet again 2 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,920 S1: the falsehood that the 2020 presidential election was stolen, and 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,800 S1: how many Americans now believe it? I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, 4 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,560 S1: and you're listening to The Morning Edition from The Age 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,799 S1: and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, international and political editor 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,880 S1: Peter Hartcher on what the timing of Trump's renewed fixation 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:39,000 S1: tells us about his ulterior motive. It's July the 23rd. Peter, 8 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,160 S1: welcome back to the podcast. 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:41,040 S2: Pleasure, Samantha. 10 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:42,720 S1: You know, I'm always excited to have you on, but 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,800 S1: particularly today because Donald Trump has been cracking on again 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,120 S1: about electoral fraud, electoral interference, as he says, he says 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:55,520 S1: he's declassified intelligence files that reveal shocking vulnerabilities about the 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,680 S1: American electoral system. So tell us what he said and 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,910 S1: about this Intel that he says proves it all. 16 00:01:01,910 --> 00:01:05,270 S2: Yeah. So six years on from the 2020 election, which 17 00:01:05,270 --> 00:01:09,950 S2: he claims was stolen from him, he's again, uh, not 18 00:01:09,950 --> 00:01:15,149 S2: only talking about that, but held a national address, televised 19 00:01:15,150 --> 00:01:19,630 S2: address to the nation to advance the claim and to 20 00:01:19,670 --> 00:01:22,990 S2: produce what he said were was shocking new evidence, as 21 00:01:22,990 --> 00:01:28,910 S2: you say, of, quote, catastrophic, catastrophic failures in the US 22 00:01:28,910 --> 00:01:29,950 S2: election system. 23 00:01:30,110 --> 00:01:33,709 S3: Every American deserves to know that when they cast their vote, 24 00:01:33,950 --> 00:01:37,910 S3: that vote will be counted accurately in a system, and 25 00:01:37,910 --> 00:01:42,470 S3: that is to make that system secure, one where cheating 26 00:01:42,470 --> 00:01:48,750 S3: and interference are not just difficult, but virtually impossible. Unfortunately, 27 00:01:48,750 --> 00:01:53,830 S3: the system we have today falls catastrophically short of that standard. 28 00:01:54,830 --> 00:01:57,230 S2: Now, this may be a little perverse because he, in 29 00:01:57,230 --> 00:01:59,900 S2: fact is president today because of that same system, which 30 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:03,860 S2: is now undermining confidence in. Among the statements he, he 31 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:05,980 S2: he made and there was more than 20 minutes of 32 00:02:05,980 --> 00:02:10,100 S2: this continuous stream from him, from the podium, were that 33 00:02:10,460 --> 00:02:14,300 S2: China had run a huge interference campaign against him in 34 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:19,060 S2: the 2020 election, that Chinese authorities had stolen more than 35 00:02:19,060 --> 00:02:21,700 S2: a quarter of a million voter details and used them 36 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:27,780 S2: against him. That Russia, China, Iran had all been meddling 37 00:02:27,780 --> 00:02:33,620 S2: in the electoral system, that the system was completely broken 38 00:02:34,260 --> 00:02:37,820 S2: and demanded. And this, I think, was the main point 39 00:02:38,340 --> 00:02:41,740 S2: of the content of the speech, was to demand that 40 00:02:41,740 --> 00:02:44,540 S2: the Congress get on and approve a bill that he's 41 00:02:44,540 --> 00:02:49,700 S2: put before the Republicans have created before the Congress to 42 00:02:49,740 --> 00:02:53,660 S2: pass the, quote, save, Save America, act. 43 00:02:54,060 --> 00:02:58,930 S3: This landmark bill requires that all voters must show photo 44 00:02:59,130 --> 00:03:04,130 S3: voter ID. How simple is that? Could I have your photo, please? 45 00:03:04,490 --> 00:03:10,170 S3: Photo voter ID. All voters must provide proof of citizenship. 46 00:03:10,690 --> 00:03:14,489 S3: Are you a citizen of our country? Please. And hopefully 47 00:03:14,490 --> 00:03:17,570 S3: there will be no corrupt mail in ballots, which, if 48 00:03:17,570 --> 00:03:19,730 S3: you watched California and so many others. 49 00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:24,690 S2: Which is all about or mostly about trying to put 50 00:03:24,730 --> 00:03:28,690 S2: Trump's demands that the states who run the elections in 51 00:03:28,690 --> 00:03:31,889 S2: the US. Remember, this is a highly federalized system where 52 00:03:31,970 --> 00:03:35,010 S2: the federal government has no role and the states conduct 53 00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:38,770 S2: the elections. The states have to meet his demands for 54 00:03:38,770 --> 00:03:42,730 S2: how to run the elections that are coming up in November, 55 00:03:43,450 --> 00:03:45,290 S2: where they have the congressional midterms. 56 00:03:45,530 --> 00:03:47,450 S1: Okay. Well, let's talk about the timing, because it really 57 00:03:47,450 --> 00:03:49,890 S1: does speak to the ulterior motive that you sort of 58 00:03:49,930 --> 00:03:52,690 S1: foreshadowed a bit before. And I find the timing so 59 00:03:52,730 --> 00:03:55,610 S1: interesting because the US, of course, is facing a lot 60 00:03:55,610 --> 00:03:58,320 S1: of immediate problems right now, right? Like Pete Hegseth, the 61 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,880 S1: defense secretary, just announced that the Iran war has so 62 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:06,200 S1: far cost $37.5 billion. Three American soldiers were just killed 63 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,680 S1: in that conflict. And yet Trump is talking about, of 64 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,160 S1: all things, electoral fraud now. So tell us about this timing, Peter. 65 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,159 S2: Well, it was a bit unseemly, actually, with the new 66 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,800 S2: deaths of American service members, 16 altogether so far in 67 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:26,280 S2: this war that that happened, not to mention the deaths of, uh, 68 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,800 S2: the murder of people on the streets by Ice agents 69 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,840 S2: that occurred last week. And as you say, what all 70 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,520 S2: the polls show is the overwhelming preoccupation and concern of 71 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,320 S2: American voters, which is the cost of living and high 72 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,880 S2: inflation and how that's eroding their living standards. Trump glazed 73 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:51,680 S2: over all of those. He claimed victory on everything. Uh, 74 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,720 S2: as he likes to say, I got everything right. And 75 00:04:56,350 --> 00:04:59,549 S2: then just spent the next 20 plus minutes talking about 76 00:04:59,550 --> 00:05:03,710 S2: electoral fraud. So why six years later, with these being 77 00:05:04,150 --> 00:05:07,430 S2: the real concerns of real voters in his country and 78 00:05:07,430 --> 00:05:09,550 S2: a war which is again, raging and pushing up the 79 00:05:09,550 --> 00:05:12,150 S2: price of oil back to towards where it was earlier 80 00:05:12,150 --> 00:05:16,270 S2: in the year. Is he talking about this? Well, the 81 00:05:16,270 --> 00:05:20,750 S2: two obvious points are, one, his demand that the Congress 82 00:05:20,750 --> 00:05:23,750 S2: pass the Save act, which is currently before it and 83 00:05:23,750 --> 00:05:27,830 S2: which it's shown no interest in passing. And why that? 84 00:05:27,830 --> 00:05:32,790 S2: Because that would affect the processes for voting for the 85 00:05:32,790 --> 00:05:37,350 S2: November midterm elections, where the polls tell us that. And 86 00:05:37,350 --> 00:05:42,430 S2: this is consistent with all historical patterns, that the incumbent 87 00:05:42,790 --> 00:05:47,270 S2: party loses some support at the midterms. And that would 88 00:05:47,270 --> 00:05:49,350 S2: be normal and natural. And the polls are telling us 89 00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:52,350 S2: that is exactly what will happen. And Trump obviously is 90 00:05:52,350 --> 00:05:57,469 S2: concerned about this. And rather than trying to salvage his 91 00:05:57,630 --> 00:06:01,590 S2: approval ratings and the Republican Party standing through addressing the 92 00:06:01,589 --> 00:06:05,429 S2: actual concerns of the American people, instead of bringing petrol 93 00:06:05,430 --> 00:06:09,430 S2: and inflation and goods prices down, he continues to push 94 00:06:09,430 --> 00:06:14,349 S2: them up with not only the war against Iran, but 95 00:06:14,350 --> 00:06:18,790 S2: continuous attempts to impose new tariffs on imports, which pushes 96 00:06:18,790 --> 00:06:21,630 S2: up prices and pushes up inflation. So rather than try 97 00:06:21,630 --> 00:06:26,710 S2: to salvage public support for the Republican Party is instead 98 00:06:26,950 --> 00:06:32,430 S2: stepping up pressure to be able to influence and tamper 99 00:06:32,430 --> 00:06:37,510 S2: with and possibly rig the midterms themselves. So rather than 100 00:06:37,990 --> 00:06:41,670 S2: improve the score, he's trying to meddle with the Scorekeepers. 101 00:06:42,310 --> 00:06:47,070 S2: He is proposing now to try to assert, uh, influence 102 00:06:47,390 --> 00:06:51,469 S2: federal influence over state run election campaigns rather than risk 103 00:06:51,470 --> 00:06:55,500 S2: losing any Support in these in these elections. 104 00:06:55,540 --> 00:06:56,980 S1: Okay. Well, I want to ask you a little bit 105 00:06:56,980 --> 00:06:59,700 S1: about that, because you've just written that, you know, Trump 106 00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:03,020 S1: has even sent his Homeland Security secretary. This is Markwayne Mullin, 107 00:07:03,020 --> 00:07:05,220 S1: to issue a threat to state officials that if they 108 00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:07,340 S1: don't do what the white House wants them to do 109 00:07:07,339 --> 00:07:10,380 S1: to manage the upcoming midterm elections, that the federal government 110 00:07:10,380 --> 00:07:13,940 S1: will pursue them with fines and even prison terms. Now, 111 00:07:13,940 --> 00:07:16,540 S1: I know you're not a legal expert, Peter, but can you. 112 00:07:16,540 --> 00:07:16,900 S2: Answer. 113 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:17,220 S1: Or not? 114 00:07:17,540 --> 00:07:18,780 S2: No, no, I'm not an expert on anything. 115 00:07:18,900 --> 00:07:20,620 S1: Well, I mean, listen, you and me both, but do 116 00:07:20,620 --> 00:07:23,179 S1: you happen to know, is that even legal? Because. Because, 117 00:07:23,220 --> 00:07:25,140 S1: like you've just said a bit earlier, I mean, the 118 00:07:25,140 --> 00:07:28,060 S1: way these elections, it's a state it's a state issue 119 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:30,620 S1: the way these are run. Right? The president, as I 120 00:07:30,620 --> 00:07:34,620 S1: understand it, has no power over the way state elections 121 00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:36,260 S1: are run. If I'm correct. 122 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:42,380 S2: That's right. Well, what we hear from Markwayne Mullin, Markwayne 123 00:07:42,380 --> 00:07:46,580 S2: tells us that the federal government will inform the states 124 00:07:46,660 --> 00:07:50,700 S2: of where they see, uh, the risk of fraudulent voting 125 00:07:50,700 --> 00:07:53,250 S2: and where the state should act. and if the states 126 00:07:53,250 --> 00:07:57,370 S2: do not, then the federal government will pursue them with fines. 127 00:07:57,370 --> 00:07:59,970 S2: And he said, depending on how far the fraud goes. 128 00:08:00,490 --> 00:08:05,250 S2: Prison time. Now they have not specified. To get to 129 00:08:05,250 --> 00:08:09,290 S2: your question, what they would charge those state officials with, 130 00:08:09,290 --> 00:08:11,730 S2: what the crime that they would be charged with is 131 00:08:11,730 --> 00:08:16,250 S2: to justify jail terms. So I presume they've got some 132 00:08:16,650 --> 00:08:20,210 S2: some white House lawyers trying to concoct something. Whatever they 133 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:23,929 S2: concoct would be contested in the courts, of course, if 134 00:08:23,930 --> 00:08:27,890 S2: it comes to that. But it's an obvious attempt either way, 135 00:08:28,330 --> 00:08:32,850 S2: at simple intimidation of the states and the Congress to 136 00:08:32,890 --> 00:08:34,250 S2: go along with Trump's will. 137 00:08:34,290 --> 00:08:36,010 S1: I mean, that's probably the point, isn't it? You know, 138 00:08:36,050 --> 00:08:38,170 S1: because it's going to get wrapped up in the courts anyway. 139 00:08:38,450 --> 00:08:41,650 S1: And I guess even beyond that, tell us, I guess, 140 00:08:41,650 --> 00:08:45,010 S1: about the ulterior motive, because you've written that all of 141 00:08:45,010 --> 00:08:49,410 S1: this really is like a potential platform, right, for annulling 142 00:08:49,410 --> 00:08:52,120 S1: the 2028 presidential elections, right? 143 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,400 S2: Well, potential being the key word there. It's still it's 144 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,640 S2: its only potential potential that he will do these things 145 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,959 S2: that he's threatening to do, but he is threatening their 146 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,479 S2: their real and potential. 147 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,000 S1: May I to say that a lot of people are 148 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:10,160 S1: openly fearing and commentating about like, it's not a fringe. No. Yeah. 149 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,360 S2: No. And as, as we've said already, this is not 150 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,000 S2: a man who's shown respect for electoral outcomes. None. No. Uh, 151 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,520 S2: and persists in fraud and lies of his own. So 152 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,960 S2: it's not shocking to, to, to observe that he's now 153 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,440 S2: trying to intimidate, pressure and affect the results of the 154 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:36,000 S2: midterm elections to favor himself and his party. But then 155 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,400 S2: having done that, why wouldn't he, given that everything he 156 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,920 S2: has done, uh, everything about him tells us he has 157 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,760 S2: no respect for the electoral process. Why wouldn't he then 158 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,110 S2: want to continue that into 2028? A man who's often 159 00:09:51,270 --> 00:09:55,070 S2: joked and sometimes apparently seriously mused on the potential for 160 00:09:55,070 --> 00:09:59,510 S2: staying on beyond the constitutional term limit beyond the 2028 election. 161 00:10:00,270 --> 00:10:03,670 S2: Why wouldn't he be considering that? Why wouldn't he use 162 00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:09,350 S2: any potential impression he can create that this year's midterms 163 00:10:09,390 --> 00:10:12,030 S2: are fraudulent? To then go on to say, well, that 164 00:10:12,030 --> 00:10:16,910 S2: was a fraud. We can't trust the presidential elections in 2028. 165 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:20,390 S2: So I think we should annul these. We don't need them. 166 00:10:20,390 --> 00:10:23,589 S2: I'm doing a great job as president. Everything's great. We 167 00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:25,670 S2: are the hottest country in the history of the world. 168 00:10:25,710 --> 00:10:28,110 S2: He keeps saying he said that again last week. Yeah. 169 00:10:28,270 --> 00:10:32,350 S2: Best economy, hottest country. Everything is perfect yet improving. So 170 00:10:32,350 --> 00:10:35,030 S2: just leave me in power until we can sort out 171 00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:38,630 S2: this electoral system mess. There seems to be a high 172 00:10:38,630 --> 00:10:45,510 S2: degree of confidence, or the assumption among Americans that Trump 173 00:10:45,510 --> 00:10:48,710 S2: won't do that. It seems to be generally accepted that 174 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:53,700 S2: he'll step down when the term expires. But looking at 175 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:58,580 S2: his history, his form, his mentality, and his latest claims, 176 00:10:59,340 --> 00:11:01,140 S2: I don't think any of us should be shocked now 177 00:11:01,179 --> 00:11:03,820 S2: to to think that he might want to stay on 178 00:11:03,820 --> 00:11:04,939 S2: beyond 2028. 179 00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:07,660 S1: After the break. 180 00:11:08,179 --> 00:11:11,380 S2: Himself, in a moment of candor, said, I found out 181 00:11:11,420 --> 00:11:13,820 S2: nobody cares. And it's not illegal. 182 00:11:22,179 --> 00:11:23,740 S1: And I want to ask you about something else you 183 00:11:23,740 --> 00:11:26,260 S1: wrote because you've just been spoken about, I guess some 184 00:11:26,420 --> 00:11:29,579 S1: statements he's made, moves he's made that, I guess could 185 00:11:29,580 --> 00:11:34,700 S1: be lumped into something of an authoritarian sort of vibe, 186 00:11:34,740 --> 00:11:35,460 S1: I guess. 187 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:36,380 S2: Worldview, perhaps. 188 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:39,980 S1: Exactly. And, you know, there may be listeners who are thinking, oh, 189 00:11:39,980 --> 00:11:42,220 S1: but wait a minute, there's safeguards in the American system 190 00:11:42,220 --> 00:11:44,620 S1: to stop this from happening that will prevent, say, Trump, 191 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:48,060 S1: from serving an unconstitutional third term as president. But you've 192 00:11:48,059 --> 00:11:50,650 S1: just written about recent ways in which Trump has flouted 193 00:11:50,690 --> 00:11:54,410 S1: other presidential norms that, you know, perhaps lean in the 194 00:11:54,410 --> 00:11:57,250 S1: authoritarian direction in ways that people might sort of not 195 00:11:57,250 --> 00:12:00,010 S1: recognize as such. So can you just tell us about 196 00:12:00,010 --> 00:12:01,689 S1: some of those recent examples? 197 00:12:01,809 --> 00:12:06,050 S2: Well, in his first term as president, Trump was reasonably 198 00:12:06,050 --> 00:12:10,450 S2: careful about conflicts of interest with his personal finances and 199 00:12:10,450 --> 00:12:16,370 S2: the actions of his administration and put his businesses outside 200 00:12:16,370 --> 00:12:20,250 S2: his own reach. Now, this term, he's he has done 201 00:12:20,370 --> 00:12:24,809 S2: some thing. He has taken a step to protect himself 202 00:12:24,809 --> 00:12:27,930 S2: against that accusation of conflict of interest, which of course, 203 00:12:27,929 --> 00:12:30,650 S2: is a form of corruption because he's put his his 204 00:12:30,650 --> 00:12:36,930 S2: personal finances and business into a revocable trust. Previous presidents 205 00:12:36,929 --> 00:12:40,490 S2: have put their business interests into an irrevocable trust where 206 00:12:40,490 --> 00:12:44,530 S2: they can't see what's being done with their funding, their finances, 207 00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:48,400 S2: which are managed by trustees, and they can't revoke the trust. 208 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,800 S2: The trust remains fixed for their term in power Trumps 209 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,840 S2: is revocable so he can do what he pleases, really 210 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,360 S2: if he chooses to. But there's clearly a lot of 211 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,920 S2: double dealing self-dealing going on across a whole panoply of 212 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,880 S2: interests and investments that Trump has made. And himself, in 213 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,000 S2: a moment of candor, said, you know why he was 214 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,400 S2: less concerned about conflict of interest in this term? He said, 215 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,559 S2: I found out nobody cares. And it's not illegal. Yes. 216 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,080 S2: So as a result, we see that his personal income 217 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:30,829 S2: last year rose from the previous year's about 700 million 218 00:13:30,830 --> 00:13:34,280 S2: USD in a year to last year, his first year 219 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:39,040 S2: back in the presidency, 2.4 billion USD. In a job 220 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,680 S2: where the salary is 400,000 a year. The most recent 221 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,309 S2: from the last few days was an announcement from Trump Media, 222 00:13:47,309 --> 00:13:51,270 S2: which he controls. He owns 41% of that. That company 223 00:13:51,270 --> 00:13:55,790 S2: announced that they would soon be selling a little gadget 224 00:13:56,390 --> 00:14:00,390 S2: software gadget API that would be selling access to this 225 00:14:00,390 --> 00:14:04,750 S2: for investors who want to get faster notice of his 226 00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:09,790 S2: posts on Trump's social his own social media feed, where 227 00:14:09,830 --> 00:14:13,750 S2: last month he posted more than six. Something like 670 228 00:14:13,750 --> 00:14:17,589 S2: times in one month. Many of those posts affect markets. 229 00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:22,150 S2: He comments on US companies, businesses, industries and. Ever since 230 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:25,390 S2: this war in Iran, his statements have affected the oil 231 00:14:25,390 --> 00:14:30,230 S2: price every week, up or down. And so advance notice 232 00:14:30,350 --> 00:14:33,750 S2: to these posts has a lot of market value attached 233 00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:37,870 S2: to it. This is just the latest example of this 234 00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:42,470 S2: obvious conflict of interest between Trump's official responsibilities as the 235 00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:47,620 S2: president of a nation and his private companies opportunities to 236 00:14:47,660 --> 00:14:49,619 S2: make profit from that position. 237 00:14:49,660 --> 00:14:52,900 S1: Okay. So I guess to wrap up, though, because you've 238 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:55,140 S1: written about other ways in which Trump has sort of 239 00:14:55,180 --> 00:14:57,940 S1: perhaps tried to consolidate a form of authoritarian power in 240 00:14:57,940 --> 00:15:00,860 S1: ways that perhaps on first glance, don't seem like they 241 00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:03,619 S1: are like they seem maybe vain or a bit silly. 242 00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:06,580 S1: You know, like, for instance, the coin that now has 243 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:09,300 S1: his face on it, but you say they're actually not. 244 00:15:09,580 --> 00:15:11,020 S1: I mean, they may be silly and they may be 245 00:15:11,020 --> 00:15:12,620 S1: a bit vain, but you say they're not just vain 246 00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:13,500 S1: and silly, right? 247 00:15:14,220 --> 00:15:18,340 S2: Well, certainly a lot of Americans are offended by some 248 00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:23,340 S2: of the vanity projects that he's imposing on America. The 249 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:25,780 S2: the announcement from the US Treasury a couple of days 250 00:15:25,780 --> 00:15:30,460 S2: ago that they will be releasing a gold coloured coin, 251 00:15:30,460 --> 00:15:36,140 S2: $1 coin with Trump's, uh, beautiful visage on it. His 252 00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:39,500 S2: other vanity projects, some US passports are now being issued 253 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:43,220 S2: with Trump's face printed on them. The Treasury tried to 254 00:15:43,260 --> 00:15:46,700 S2: publish to to print a $250 dollar bill with Trump's 255 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:51,020 S2: face on it, but the Congress blocked it. His projected 256 00:15:51,020 --> 00:15:54,700 S2: his planned Trump arc, as it's called, to be built 257 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:58,380 S2: in Washington, D.C., according to Trump. At least that would 258 00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:02,900 S2: tower above every other monument. And the fact that, uh, 259 00:16:03,140 --> 00:16:06,460 S2: big banners of Donald Trump, you know, five, six, seven, 260 00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:10,500 S2: eight meter tall colored banners of Trump hanging on federal 261 00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:14,660 S2: government buildings in Washington, D.C., including on the Department of Justice, 262 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:19,460 S2: which is supposed to be an apolitical administrator of justice. 263 00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:21,180 S2: Now it looks like it's got a Trump brand on 264 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:23,340 S2: the building. I mean, these are all vanity projects. 265 00:16:23,580 --> 00:16:25,700 S1: And it also smacks of something that you might say, see, 266 00:16:25,740 --> 00:16:29,940 S1: in Iran or in, you know, the Soviet Republic in 267 00:16:29,940 --> 00:16:30,460 S1: those days. 268 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:32,340 S2: Exactly. In any autocracy, really? 269 00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:32,980 S1: Yes. 270 00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:37,020 S2: Or in in China. Um. That's right. Now, you know, 271 00:16:37,060 --> 00:16:40,060 S2: they are a bit trivial because they in themselves don't 272 00:16:40,060 --> 00:16:46,650 S2: really change anything. It's it's superficial, but they're potentially useful 273 00:16:46,650 --> 00:16:51,090 S2: to us because these point to his mindset, his imperialist 274 00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:55,330 S2: mindset that I should have all the power. Um, and 275 00:16:55,370 --> 00:16:58,730 S2: he said so on the conflict of interests question, he said, 276 00:16:58,730 --> 00:17:02,650 S2: presidents can't have a conflict of interest. It just it doesn't, can't, 277 00:17:02,690 --> 00:17:05,090 S2: can't be because I'm the president. It's like Nixon saying, 278 00:17:05,090 --> 00:17:08,129 S2: if the president does it, it's legal. We now have. 279 00:17:08,330 --> 00:17:10,369 S1: To know that. We know how that worked out for him, though. So. 280 00:17:10,410 --> 00:17:13,170 S2: Right. But Trump's having a lot more success in smashing 281 00:17:13,170 --> 00:17:16,130 S2: through the traditional constraints. 282 00:17:16,170 --> 00:17:18,810 S1: Every week we have a Watergate era type scandal. And 283 00:17:18,810 --> 00:17:21,090 S1: it's it's a blip. So obviously it's a different story. 284 00:17:21,410 --> 00:17:23,650 S2: So just look at the last week. There have been 285 00:17:23,650 --> 00:17:27,890 S2: three striking case studies in each of those. One each 286 00:17:27,930 --> 00:17:31,929 S2: in each of those fields. Um, Trump staking a claim 287 00:17:32,609 --> 00:17:37,250 S2: to intimidate the conduct of the next elections, the midterm 288 00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:41,010 S2: elections and threatening to intervene and punish and send to 289 00:17:41,050 --> 00:17:46,439 S2: jail state officials for not doing, as he says, to 290 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,160 S2: get the results that he wants. We've got another conflict 291 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,560 S2: of interest question with this selling of early access to 292 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,680 S2: Trump's social media postings. And then we've got another example 293 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,760 S2: of this self-aggrandizement project with the gold coin. All of 294 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:08,919 S2: those are smashing through one way or another, precedent and 295 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:14,160 S2: constraint that other presidents have observed to get outcomes to 296 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,400 S2: aggrandize himself and to advance his own power. 297 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,400 S1: You were just in Washington, D.C., for over a week, 298 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,080 S1: and you told me before recording that at least among 299 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,199 S1: the people that you spoke to there and what you 300 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,879 S1: were sensing on the ground, that people are relatively numb 301 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,360 S1: now to what's happening. And so you wonder whether this 302 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,240 S1: is just going to give an air of inevitability to, okay, 303 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,520 S1: maybe we have an authoritarian now. Like maybe that's who 304 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:37,159 S1: we are now. 305 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,680 S2: Well, the Democrats talk a good game about opposing him 306 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,669 S2: and winning. But there seems. They seem still to be 307 00:18:44,670 --> 00:18:47,510 S2: fumbling around to try and find an effective way of 308 00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:52,510 S2: countering him. And yes, a lot of people, you use 309 00:18:52,510 --> 00:18:56,750 S2: the word numbing the shock value of Trump. And these 310 00:18:56,750 --> 00:19:03,229 S2: his actions is unconventional. Sometimes even unconstitutional actions seems to 311 00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:05,350 S2: have been lost. A lot of people seem to be 312 00:19:05,350 --> 00:19:09,070 S2: inured to this as a new reality that they just 313 00:19:09,070 --> 00:19:10,790 S2: have to accept. So we'll see. 314 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:13,230 S1: Thank you so much for your time. 315 00:19:13,390 --> 00:19:14,550 S2: Always a pleasure, Samantha. 316 00:19:22,750 --> 00:19:26,189 S1: In other news today, house prices in Melbourne and Sydney 317 00:19:26,190 --> 00:19:29,670 S1: have fallen slightly, with median house prices in Sydney at 318 00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:35,429 S1: about $1.7 million and in Melbourne a touch over $1 million. Meanwhile, 319 00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:40,340 S1: prices in Brisbane, Adelaide and Perth have increased. New York 320 00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:44,260 S1: Mayor Zarin Mamdani has challenged the U.S. federal government to 321 00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:49,460 S1: execute an international arrest warrant against Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, 322 00:19:49,740 --> 00:19:53,420 S1: calling him a war criminal. In a striking video statement. 323 00:19:53,940 --> 00:19:57,420 S1: And at 75, Jackie Hudson will make her debut for 324 00:19:57,420 --> 00:20:01,180 S1: Australia in lawn bowls at the Commonwealth Games. The great 325 00:20:01,180 --> 00:20:05,659 S1: grandmother of two is one of Australia's oldest Commonwealth Games debutantes. 326 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:12,660 S1: You can read more at the age.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's 327 00:20:12,660 --> 00:20:16,500 S1: episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer is 328 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:20,100 S1: Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy 329 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:23,459 S1: and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow The 330 00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:26,220 S1: Morning Edition and leave a review for us on Apple 331 00:20:26,220 --> 00:20:29,140 S1: or Spotify. Thanks for listening.