S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqi and this is the drop a
S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of
S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and
S1: Mel Kambouris. What's up team? How are you doing?
S2: Pretty good. Yeah. Good week. Big week coming up. Lots
S2: on the horizon in the pop culture world. Yeah.
S3: Big, uh, one of our favorite weeks of the year,
S3: I think.
S1: Yeah, it's it's a big, big, big week. We're going
S1: to be talking primarily on today's show about the Oscars,
S1: which are on next Monday. But as you alluded to, Thomas,
S1: it's been it's been a big one for cultural consumption
S1: and and conversation. There's a lot happening and a lot
S1: to talk about. So there's a few things I wanted
S1: to run through with you guys before we get stuck
S1: into our Oscars deep dive. Last month, it was Taylor
S1: Swift causing a gigantic collective freakout in Australia. This time
S1: it's the UK house musician Fred again. Dot dot dot uh.
S1: He announced a pop up show at the Sydney Opera
S1: House that sold, I think, thousands of tickets in like
S1: 15 minutes. There was 200,000 people on the waiting list
S1: at peak time. He went on to announce a run
S1: of arena shows in Melbourne and Sydney. I hear from
S1: insiders that nearly a million people tried to buy tickets
S1: to his arena shows, so not quite the Taylor Swift
S1: level of hype, but still an enormous amount of interest
S1: in Fred. Again, I don't know if you've seen clips
S1: from his shows at Rod Laver Arena the last couple
S1: of nights.
UU: Everyone is very into this young guy. Don't make some
UU: fucking noise. Okay.
S1: How do you guys feel about Fred again? Dot dot dot.
S3: Look, I don't really get it. I don't really get
S3: the interest, and I.
S2: I have you been a big Fred head. I think
S2: something could have been wrong with the cosmic universe.
S3: Like, I know you guys think you're all kind of
S3: cool and in on things, but I don't think he's
S3: that cool. And I'm gonna quote Rob Moran here, who
S3: has been on this pod and is one of the
S3: best music writers in the country, who says he's just
S3: the Ed Sheeran of dance music. And I think that's perfect.
S3: I think that's a very apt description of what he is.
S3: And there's a whole lot of excitement, which I think
S3: is probably tied to kind of people feeling like they're
S3: part of something to this musician that I don't really
S3: think is warranted. Um, yeah. Thomas, I mean, you think
S3: you're all indie. Is that why you like Fred again?
S3: Thank you. Cool.
S2: When you talk about being cool, it's like talking to
S2: my mom. Honestly. No, I know you think you're a
S2: pretty cool dude. Um, no, I think you're actually kind
S2: of right. Like, I think his music is good, but
S2: I think the hype around Fred again has become like
S2: its own really funny beast to watch. Um, and especially,
S2: you know, I think in what's really important these days
S2: as well, is that he's a bit of a marketing genius,
S2: like doing the surprise show at the Sydney Opera House
S2: to like, you know, whip everyone up into a frenzy
S2: was a really smart idea because then everyone who missed
S2: out was like, well, I'm 100% buying tickets to the
S2: six arena shows. I think he's just become he's slot
S2: into this weird, like kind of trend, you know, like
S2: almost like post triple J, but love dance music, but
S2: still a bit accessible. And he's really captured a big
S2: kind of aging millennial audience, um, that have just, like,
S2: eaten his shit up big time. But I do think
S2: his music is fun. He makes fun dance music. He's
S2: a good producer. And, you know, I thought particularly and
S2: I think you'll appreciate this, seeing some vision of him
S2: at Revolver in Melbourne at like 9 a.m., like simultaneously
S2: made me envious. And I had like, PTSD. Uh, so yeah,
S2: it he's definitely made a mark in his short time here.
S1: I'm glad you brought up the marketing element of it,
S1: because to me, this is where the Taylor Swift comparison
S1: is really interesting. Not just because they both are very
S1: popular and selling a lot of tickets in Australia. I
S1: think they both have found a very smart way to
S1: create a, I guess, a mystique or an aura around
S1: them that feels very relatable and very honest and very
S1: earnest and very real when it is kind of anything but.
S1: And by that I mean that both Taylor Swift and
S1: Fred again have got, I would assume, giant marketing team
S1: not even assume I know this giant marketing teams that
S1: are working overtime to both do interesting things, like surprise
S1: shows at revolver, keep a stadium show under wraps, post
S1: in WhatsApp groups and discord chats like he's just a
S1: regular person keeping you in the loop with his life.
S1: It's a really interesting way to use a huge amount
S1: of resources and a huge amount of buzz to feel
S1: like just a regular person, and that certainly so much
S1: of his aura. You mentioned elder millennials, Thomas. I think
S1: there's a bit of that because I think maybe it
S1: reminds people of a kind of electronic music that is
S1: a little bit out of vogue or has been for
S1: a while, but particularly younger people like Gen Z's in
S1: the pandemic. Fred went ballistic on TikTok, making a kind
S1: of music that I think that generation probably never really
S1: heard commercially. And then when he came out of the
S1: pandemic and started doing live shows for a lot of
S1: people aged, I guess like 18 to 21, it was
S1: probably the first live music they'd seen. And electronic music,
S1: house music is so good for that collective, joyous experience
S1: of dancing and partying. So they're like reasons why it
S1: makes sense to me. But I think what I find
S1: interesting about Fred again, and I think this is why
S1: it's in conversation with Taylor, is being a good musician
S1: is only, like I would say, not even 50%, maybe
S1: like 20% of what it takes to succeed. The rest
S1: of it is how do you market yourself? How do
S1: you brand yourself, and how do you become part of
S1: a cultural conversation? And I think he's done that in
S1: a very interesting way, in a way that I think
S1: overstates how good the music is. Like, I don't totally
S1: love the music, I don't really hate it, but for
S1: me it is more about how he's created a wave
S1: around him. Then he's this like incredible musician that's never
S1: done anything like this before, because ultimately, Mel, I got
S1: to say, Rob's comp is spot on, like Ed Sheeran,
S1: Tash Sultana like when Fred does these shows, he's in
S1: the round, he's in the middle. He's like recreating the stuff,
S1: using his MPC and loops. It's very like busking in
S1: that Ed Sheeran way. Australians seem obsessed with that kind
S1: of music in particular. It's a really funny little moment,
S1: I think.
S3: Yeah, and I agree, like there are good kind of
S3: catchy songs that Billie song I quite like. What are
S3: some of your other things? Well, Melanie, Melanie's doing the
S3: part in brackets. There you go.
S1: Um, Rumble is also a really good song. Like there's
S1: a couple of great tracks.
S3: Yeah, I think you're completely right that it's just. And
S3: you say 20% talent, the rest marketing I think like
S3: it's 5% talent, really. And the rest is marketing. And
S3: I do think that he's managed to hit that sweet
S3: spot where, you know, it's supply versus demand of who
S3: can get to see the show, but then it becomes
S3: just a tool of social currency. You know, I went
S3: to the show and I'm going to the show and
S3: I like. Again, like I'm in the know without realizing. Like,
S3: I guess the bigger picture is that, you know, you're
S3: just being played in a way. So I do think
S3: it's just become like a tool of social currency to
S3: be like, I'm attending this gig. In the same way
S3: any exclusivity, you know, becomes a marker of your taste
S3: and class and who you are, like a performance of
S3: your own identity. So I yeah, I think you're spot
S3: on us.
S2: That being said, if the team is listening to this pod,
S2: we would love six tickets to some of the shows.
S1: I would happily miss, so I'm not that fussed, but
S1: I hope you guys managed to get tickets to the show.
S1: I think the other the other reason why I wanted
S1: to talk to you guys about it, because to me,
S1: it raises this other question of, okay, well, he makes
S1: decent music and he's very smart at marketing where the
S1: people around him are. Should that be a knock on him?
S1: And I think the answer is obviously like, no, not necessarily.
S1: But to me what it raises is who gets to
S1: be Fred again and who gets to be Taylor Swift.
S1: And I think we've talked about this over the last
S1: couple of weeks, thinking about the Australian music industry, the
S1: live music space in particular, crumbling around us. So many acts,
S1: so many artists that I know was talking, uh, to
S1: to a friend last night who I won't name the band,
S1: but they're in like a very prominent Australian band that
S1: that perform all over the country, all over the world.
S1: And you would think that they would be like multi-millionaires
S1: who own dozens of houses all over the country. And
S1: probably in another era they would have been. But they're
S1: like struggling financially because of the way the economics of
S1: music works right now. And then, on the other hand,
S1: you've got someone like Fred again who just comes in,
S1: who've is up all this demand and is in is
S1: going ballistic. And there is this conversation around Fred again.
S1: You guys aware of his family background at all?
S2: Yeah. Isn't he like a rich private school kid? I am.
S3: I have to say, the opening paragraph on like Wikipedia.
S3: When you look, look him up like we've got words
S3: like aristocrat jukes, viscounts. Like, I've never seen someone with
S3: such a background with so many kind of high class
S3: words involved in its description.
S1: I don't even know what half these words mean. It's
S1: on his Wikipedia. It says, descended from the Huntingdonshire gentry
S1: on his father's side through his mother's side. Fred's ancestry
S1: comprises earls Marcus Jukes as well as many other peerage
S1: and baronet families. That's like Thomas. He sort of understated
S1: it by saying, private school rich kid, these guys like
S1: a baron. That's crazy.
S2: Play that shit, Fred.
S1: And I think his godfather is by Brian Eno, the, the,
S1: the very well known producer and and this is what
S1: I think is so interesting and I think it's deliberate
S1: part of why he's constructed this persona around himself. Because
S1: you can't really lean into that too much. Like it's
S1: okay to be a bit rich, but it's hard to
S1: be the literal baron who was raised and taught everything
S1: he knew by Brian Eno. And I think it seems
S1: like he's working overtime to be. I'm just a normal person.
S1: This guy got his start writing songs like shotgun with
S1: George Ezra, solo by Clean Bandit, writing for Rita Ora,
S1: writing for producing for Ed Sheeran. Like he's born into
S1: music royalty, but it is interesting to see how he
S1: counteracts that because he does these shows at Rev's. He's
S1: been so supportive of Australian artists on this tour. He,
S1: you know, he's done pop up shows with club Angel.
S1: On Tuesday night at Rod Laver Arena, he brought out
S1: Angie McMahon, a you know, young Australian artist who's got
S1: an album and doing a tour right now and brought
S1: her on stage to perform, made.
S4: Some noise for Angie McMahon.
S1: And that's one of the things we knocked Taylor Swift for,
S1: was not engaging with the local music scene and not
S1: boosting that. So on that front, like, kudos to him.
S1: I think it's smart, but I also kind of think
S1: you kind of have to do that stuff because it's
S1: so easy to make fun of this guy as just
S1: being like a nepo baby making electronic music. And I
S1: guess that's that big a point of good on him
S1: for giving back a bit. I'd still remain worried that
S1: it's literally just Taylor Swift and a Baron that can
S1: make and perform live music in this, in this current
S1: era of pop.
S2: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely an issue. I wish my
S2: biggest issue in life, though, was like trying to seem
S2: more regular because I was so rich. Like, if that
S2: was my only problem in life, I think I'd be
S2: doing okay. But I mean, we talked about before, you know,
S2: that the marketing is maybe like 80% of it and then,
S2: you know, the talent or the good bit, it's only 20%.
S2: But I mean, like, I know you're wanting to speak
S2: about this, that just kind of reminds me of the
S2: maths on June. Like the marketing tells you, it's so good.
S2: And then you sit there for seven hours and you're
S2: just like, this is a letdown.
S1: All right. Well, I'm glad you brought up. Let's pivot
S1: to that. Let's pivot to that. I, I watched this
S1: movie again after we spoke about it last year.
S3: Of course.
S1: I had some time to reflect on on what I
S1: said and what you guys said. And I've got to say,
S1: you I mean, like Thomas in particular, you're so wrong
S1: on this movie, man. Like, like, I feel like I
S1: was made out to be some sort of, like, sci
S1: fi freak who was like, this weird movie that no
S1: one will like is pretty cool. And then Tommy still
S1: sending me text messages from your friends who are like,
S1: you know, I was just making this movie sound so dumb.
S1: You're right, Thomas, you're a man of the people. This
S1: movie is not only objectively very good, it has been
S1: critically acclaimed. It has been watched by millions of people.
S1: It's breaking box office records. It's genuinely very good. Interesting.
S1: I just wanted to ask you guys whether you had
S1: had time to reflect on your thoughts, and if you
S1: had any other things you wanted to say about the
S1: state of the discourse around June part two?
S3: Yeah, I'll, I'll start off given the only one, I
S3: am probably the only one out of the two of
S3: us that does reflect on their thoughts. Um, yeah. I was,
S3: you know, I took a more middle ground approach, I
S3: would probably say, but I was blown away by the
S3: box office results over the weekend. And I really did
S3: see that this film is incredibly popular, and the box
S3: office results for part two have been well and truly outdone.
S3: Part one as well. So not only has it kind
S3: of got a lot of fans, it's got heaps of
S3: new fans as well since the first one. So, um, yeah,
S3: I'm sorry, Oz, that we made you seem like an obscure.
S1: I have to apologize.
S2: I don't apologize on my behalf.
S3: But you are the man of the people.
S5: The man.
S1: Of cinema. You could.
S5: Say the man of the people.
S2: Who's never flown economy. I did reflect on it, and
S2: I reflected on it with friends. Allow me to share
S2: some of my reflections. So this is a friend of
S2: mine who texted me every moment Oseman talks about June
S2: confirms more and more that I absolutely do not want
S2: to see it. And this is a separate friend. June
S2: 2nd sounds boring as fuck lol. What are you doing?
S5: I mean these maybe.
S3: Reflect more on you and your friendship.
S5: I agree you have completely.
S1: Moronic friends who are not interested. I do have.
S2: Some some really moronic friends. Uh, one of them is
S2: included in that group, but I just think, look, it's
S2: important that we show both sides of the debate. And,
S2: you know, as we've discussed at length this week, I mean,
S2: some people see June as this masterpiece, and other people
S2: see it as a 2.5 hour movie about worms. So
S2: that's the world that we live in.
S1: It is it is interesting, I think even and like Thomas,
S1: even though you didn't love the movie, like you and
S1: I were exchanging kind of Dune memes over the weekend
S1: and stuff, it certainly you can acknowledge, has become like
S1: a significant cultural moment. Probably not to the scale of Barbie,
S1: but probably the next biggest in the last 12 months.
S2: Yeah, 100%. And like it is funny because like we're
S2: just saying it more and more now, like both before
S2: and after a movie comes out. Just like the like
S2: ecosystem of the internet around films is so crazy now.
S2: Like we have joked about, you know, the June popcorn
S2: bucket or whatever, but like, yeah, like I've had people
S2: exchanging memes to me about June who I know haven't
S2: actually even seen the movie yet. So yeah, it's really
S2: weird that we live in this world now. That's a thing.
S1: While we're talking about marketing, there is actually one bit
S1: of the Dune Part two phenomenon that has left me
S1: feeling like a little bit weird. I almost spent too
S1: much time on this because I want to get to
S1: the big stuff. The Oscars we're going to talk about today.
S1: But the way that movie studios, distributors, marketing firms are
S1: controlling the conversation about a movie in this day and
S1: age is really fascinating to me and frankly, a little
S1: bit depressing. So in the olden days, you know, the
S1: first you generally hear about a movie and whether it
S1: was good or bad, it was critics would go to
S1: screenings early and they would write their reviews in the newspaper,
S1: and great reviews would get you hyped. And you'd be like,
S1: I guess that's the picture I want to go see
S1: this weekend, and a bad review would like a movie
S1: would be dead on arrival, right? So it's not surprising
S1: that studios want to take some control back and set
S1: the set the narrative on their terms. And so what
S1: you've seen increasingly, is early screenings filled with influences more
S1: than critics, even interview panels, which generally used to be
S1: reserved for. Film journalists have now become about getting an influencer,
S1: a TikToker, to ask someone involved in the movie what
S1: their favorite like food is right to send that clip viral,
S1: rather than an interesting conversation about what the movie is
S1: about and what their process was. The new thing that
S1: I've seen, and I think June Part two was, was
S1: a really interesting example of this. You fill your early
S1: release cinemas with fans of this franchise so that social media,
S1: IMDb Letterboxd reviews are overwhelmingly positive because it's crazy spicy
S1: to say it's great. That creates a narrative that this
S1: movie is amazing, it's perfect, it's great, and no one
S1: really wants to be the first person to say it
S1: isn't quite that good. So everyone jumps on the hype train.
S1: They watch it. The box office numbers are big. You
S1: have that effect that you're talking about with Fred again
S1: when no one wants to miss that. So they go
S1: and see it. I think that's really interesting. It's really
S1: smart marketing. The only bit of that that really annoys
S1: me is those opportunities and that space that used to
S1: be about writing about movies or asking interesting questions about
S1: the choices directors and actors and editors make, going to
S1: the kinds of people who and like. Obviously there are smart,
S1: interesting film TikTokers and YouTubers. I'm not knocking those, but
S1: a lot of it now is just how do we
S1: get the most engagements to get this in people's feeds,
S1: to get people to watch the movie? And I think
S1: that's a little bit sad if that's the way it goes.
S1: Do you guys have any any thoughts about this? Am
S1: I just being curmudgeonly?
S3: You are being a bit curmudgeonly because I do think
S3: that there is. I think what they're doing is trying
S3: to appeal to a demographic that traditional critics aren't appealing
S3: to or aren't reaching, and that's exactly what they're trying
S3: to do. And I think there is room for both.
S3: I mean, I don't think at the June premiere, our
S3: movie reviewers weren't invited because someone from an influencer was
S3: invited to take photos in front of, like, a wall
S3: of sand. Like, I think they both can exist. And
S3: I think a more positive frame on it is to say, look,
S3: if this is how we're getting a new generation into
S3: cinema and into films like that's a really good thing.
S3: Like if this is a lot of people's first introduction
S3: to cinematic culture, like, that's wonderful, why wouldn't we celebrate
S3: the fact that we're reaching a younger audience? And I
S3: do understand what you're saying, like, obviously we don't want
S3: a dumbing down of the critical industry that we have,
S3: but I just I really do think it's a way
S3: of getting people into cinema more than kind of trying
S3: to remove the critical culture around it. And they can
S3: both exist because there will always be. And we had
S3: serious reviews of Dune at the same time as there
S3: is this kind of separate world going on for younger people.
S3: And I will say it's not every film like it's
S3: not like an Oppenheimer, although obviously that because of its
S3: release with Barbie, we did see kind of a lot
S3: of social stuff around it. But not every film is
S3: treated the way Dune has been. Like Oppenheimer wasn't killers,
S3: wasn't a lot of anatomy of a fall. These are
S3: really big, critically glorious films, but they're not being treated
S3: this way. So it is these kind of blockbuster films
S3: that are getting this treatment particularly. Yeah.
S2: And I think there will always be, um, a few
S2: of us brave people who go on the pods and say,
S2: June 2nd, June 2nd sucks. No, I think I think
S2: it's a very valid argument. I think you guys, um,
S2: kind of covered both sides. I do think, yeah, it
S2: ultimately should be about the balance. Like, you know, I
S2: remember when I went to the Saltburn screening and I
S2: was like, oh, this is really weird. Like, this is
S2: it was such a like, almost like party like atmosphere
S2: in the cinema. And this was like two weeks before
S2: it came out. And then like when it was lights up, um,
S2: I saw like several I would say like 60% of
S2: the crowd was like influences who I knew and not recognized.
S2: And then, like, would, you know, a day later saw
S2: their content on online. And I guess it'll be about
S2: the balance that you don't want to kind of like
S2: flood it with that, you know, very I know it's
S2: like so tempting for these movie companies to get the
S2: influencers in to be like, oh, they'll, you know, you
S2: do three posts to your 200,000 followers about how great
S2: Saltburn is and blah, blah, blah. But, um, I don't
S2: ever think we'll see, you know, the full watering down
S2: of the critical, you know, uh, culture.
S1: Yeah, I hope, I hope so. And you guys are right.
S1: I mean, we are very lucky to get great access
S1: to these movies. We get to watch them earlier, as
S1: do critics. And we often get great access to stars
S1: and talent. So I'm not saying that this is the
S1: end of good film criticism, but something about the way
S1: that the Dune stuff operated, on one hand super smart
S1: from the studio and is clearly paid off. But I
S1: just can see like like Paul Atreides with his with his,
S1: you know, spice vision, a darker path ahead if we
S1: follow this one too far down the track, but one
S1: to watch, I reckon.
S3: I mean, I don't know what that metaphor means.
S5: So something about talking about a worm, I think. Yeah.
S3: Blue liquid.
S1: Um, look, one other thing we wanted to, to touch on, um,
S1: was a show that I mentioned in the Impress Your
S1: Friends segment last week, uh, called Shogun. It's had a
S1: pretty big response internationally, making a lot of comparisons to
S1: Game of Thrones and even succession. The ringer called it
S1: high stakes event TV at its finest. The Washington Post
S1: says that Shogun is what thrillers or wish they were.
S1: It's a show made by FX in the in the US.
S1: It's the home of shows like Atlanta Legion, It's Always Sunny,
S1: but this feels like that leveling up. It's one of
S1: their most epic, intense shows yet, airing on Disney+ in Australia.
S1: And if you didn't catch me talking about it last week,
S1: very quick summary. It's set in Japan in the 1600s.
S1: It follows an Englishman who ends up shipwrecked in the
S1: country and quickly becomes ensnared in political intrigue as this
S1: group of five Japanese regents who rule over the country
S1: trying to politically outdo and backstab each other. Thomas, you've
S1: since watched Shogun. What did you think?
S2: Yeah, I am really into it. Um, it feels, I guess,
S2: like the closest thing we have to prestige TV right now. Um,
S2: it just it just does such a good job of
S2: setting up this world. It's not really like an easily
S2: accessible world at, like, on paper, but you so quickly get, like,
S2: drawn into the power struggles of these five different kind
S2: of like families or regions. And, you know, it is
S2: those themes that we love consistently. From the shows that
S2: we love. And, you know, we talked about comparisons to
S2: succession and, you know, whether or not that's accurate, I
S2: don't know. But like this power vacuum that is suddenly,
S2: you know, has this ripple effect is so intoxicating, I think.
S2: And on top of that, I also think like the
S2: way they do the era is really great. And yeah,
S2: I the first two episodes are actually pretty dense as well.
S2: Like in terms of trying to figure out exactly what's
S2: going on. And there is so many different characters. But yeah, I,
S2: I'm very into this. I'm on the Shogun train now.
S3: Oh my gosh, it is so graphic too.
S5: This is like video game level violence.
S3: And it did remind me of our Murray Scorsese episode.
S3: We talked about his film silence, which is also set
S3: in a similar period. And if you liked that film,
S3: you will love Shogun, because it actually picks up on
S3: a lot of those themes and the exact same kind
S3: of rough and ready landscape, the kind of collapse and
S3: building of civilizations. It's, uh, it's pretty gripping viewing.
S1: Yeah, I get I get the Game of Thrones comparisons,
S1: particularly the violence, the unexpected violence, this sort of sex
S1: and stuff. But the creators have said, look, we want
S1: this to be considered along shows like succession and House
S1: of cards as well. And I get that too, because
S1: while there is, you know, there like some really great
S1: action sequences, so much of it is like conversations and
S1: rooms and this, this web that continues to grow of
S1: double dealing and like Catholic missionaries playing both sides. There's
S1: so much complexity and denseness to this story, but I
S1: think it's done in a way that's more, uh, I guess,
S1: welcoming to outsiders and something like June, like they really
S1: explained things to you, which really helps, particularly the first
S1: couple of episodes. I feel like I get this world
S1: and the stakes and I'm really in, uh, I, I
S1: also think the way it's shot is really interesting that
S1: you said it's, you know, one of the few prestige
S1: shows out right now. Thomas, I kind of agree, even
S1: though there are like other hyped shows, you know, there's
S1: the regime with Kate Winslet that's out on, um, out
S1: on binge, the HBO show. But the way that this
S1: show is filmed, the lighting, the directing, the sequences, the performances,
S1: it feels like this last kind of we're making a
S1: movie into a TV show over eight parts and come
S1: along for the ride.
S3: Yeah, you're like totally in that environment with them, with
S3: the rough waters and the jungle and the kind of
S3: you're they do such a good job at making you
S3: feel like you're in that moment.
S2: Yeah, it feels expensive. And also I, I've had like
S2: a lot of people, um, like texting me about it,
S2: like I can the word of mouth on this show is, like,
S2: really kicking off over the last couple of weeks. Like
S2: it it feels like it could be in 5 or
S2: 6 episodes. People are like, oh, fuck. Shogun. This is
S2: like the show for the year.
S3: So the esteemed friends you quoted before who didn't like.
S5: June, are they into Shogun?
S2: Correct? Yeah. They've given Shogun the tick of approval.
S3: Interesting.
S1: Well, let's keep an eye on it, because I do
S1: think you're right. I think more people will jump on,
S1: and it may be worth doing, like a deeper dive
S1: and some character analyses and and that sort of fun thing.
S1: So yeah, we're all going to send the Shogun train,
S1: it sounds like. All right, folks, the 96th Academy Awards
S1: are nearly here. They are airing during the day on Monday,
S1: the 11th Australian time. All three of us are fans
S1: of the Oscars. We love cinema. We love award shows.
S1: We love the celebration of film culture and everything to
S1: do with the moving image with some sound attached to it.
S1: We love it when the Oscars get it right. We
S1: love it when they get it wrong. We love it
S1: when they do both on the same night, which they
S1: basically always do. Today we're going to do a deep
S1: dive on this year's awards. We're going to take a
S1: look at the state of the race, how the campaigns
S1: for each film playing out, and we'll unpack exactly how
S1: the awards work. And we'll also make some predictions that
S1: you can hold us to next week when we do
S1: a special Oscars reaction podcast, dropping in your feeds on
S1: Monday evening. I actually thought, before we start talking about
S1: this year's awards, it'd be fun to read out this
S1: passage from a book. Mel Michael Shulman's Oscar was the
S1: one that you and I both enjoy.
S5: Favorite book?
S1: It's about the history of the Oscars, and early on
S1: in the book he asks, like, what are the Academy
S1: Awards anyway? And he says that the closest thing America
S1: has to royalty, they're the only thing forcing Hollywood to
S1: factor art into commerce. They're a marketing ploy, propping up
S1: a multi-billion dollar business there, a method, however dubious, of
S1: organizing movies into canon. They're a game. They're a relic.
S1: They're a fashion show. They're a horse race. They're an
S1: orgy of self-congratulation by rich and famous people who think
S1: too highly of themselves. They're the gay Super Bowl. I
S1: thought that is like, awesome, because all of those statements
S1: are right. And I think they explain why these awards
S1: are so fascinating to watch and to talk about, both
S1: as a spectacle, but both as a statement on this
S1: big question that we talk about every show, how culture
S1: is made and received in the world right now.
S3: Yeah, just hearing that made me excited.
S5: Yeah.
S1: So. So now we've got that kind of summary out
S1: of the way. I thought it'd be fun if the
S1: three of us started with sharing some of our favorite
S1: Oscar moments from recent years. What are the bits that
S1: stand out that you still think about that make you think,
S1: God damn, I love this insane group of people and
S1: what they get up to? Mel. Jonah, do you want
S1: to go first?
S3: Well, I have to say one of them that I
S3: think still the influence still continues to loom large on
S3: our culture was Ellen's selfie, which turns ten this year?
S1: Um, this week, I believe. Two days ago. Yeah.
S3: Of course. Yeah. So, um.
S5: Remind us.
S1: Of the selfie.
S3: No, I mean, it's a bit. Ellen. Probably. Now, we
S3: know she probably bullied everyone into doing it and smiled
S3: the whole way. So it's kind of a bit tinged now, but, um,
S3: Ellen just happened to take that, you know, seemingly random selfie.
S3: Probably ten years ago. We were all just discovering selfies, right?
S3: And it had the who's who of Hollywood in it.
S3: Everyone from Meryl Streep to Bradley Cooper, Jennifer Lawrence was
S3: in it, Brad Pitt all like in a kind of
S3: Renaissance style, scattered composition. And it was just kind of
S3: captured a moment in time in Hollywood so perfectly. And
S3: since then it's obviously been ripped off multiple times. Everyone's
S3: kind of done their own version of the Ellen self,
S3: and it became a trend at other events as well.
S1: It's so funny that selfie, because you're right, it had
S1: this chokehold on the on the world. But now you
S1: look back, you're like that is so cringe. Like who cares?
S1: The photo looks like depressing Kevin Spacey. There's a few
S1: people there that have not aged well, but now it's
S1: like you just couldn't see that going ballistic the way
S1: that that did.
S3: No, I feel like if you saw it, you'd probably
S3: mock them and criticize them for the ostentatious ness of
S3: it all. Um, of course, at the moment that I
S3: think we'll never get past from the Oscars is the slap. Um,
S3: not the Crystal talkers book, though we can talk about
S3: that later. The 2022, um, Will Smith, Chris Rock, I'm
S3: out here.
UU: Oh, Richard. Oh, wow. Wow.
S6: Will Smith just smack the shit out of me.
UU: Name out your mouth.
S6: Wow, dude. Yes, it was a G.I. Joe.
S3: My wife's name. I remember we were all in the office,
S3: I think, when it happened. And it was. The response was.
S3: So no one really understood what was going on.
S1: I was famously not in the office. I'd been helping
S1: live blog at all day and went to get a
S1: sandwich and was like.
S5: What could.
S1: Happen here? And I got my phone starts blowing up.
S1: It's like, you know, Will Smith just slap Chris Rock.
S1: I'm like, ah, I was like George Clooney at the
S1: opening of Ocean's 12. And Julia Roberts calls and he
S1: throws the flowers away and just gets back, runs back in.
S2: It was like a BLT. Yeah, yeah, just enjoying himself.
S1: It was so funny. You mentioned Crystal Soakers because I
S1: can remember who it was. Someone in our team had
S1: an idea to message Crystal and see if he would
S1: comment on the slap, and and I did. He decided
S1: to not buy it. Actually.
S3: That is such a good idea and I think we
S3: should ask him again.
S1: I actually, I actually just found the message. He said,
S1: Hi Osman, I think the wisest thing for me to
S1: do is let the memes take care of themselves. Hope
S1: that's okay. Don't hesitate to ask me anything. My best Christmas.
S5: That's a great message.
S3: Speaking of the time, I asked Helen Garner to write
S3: about the Kardashians and.
S5: Which I still.
S3: Believe would have been a remarkable.
S5: Can you bring this up often?
S3: She just replied one line. No, not for me. Um, yeah,
S3: but do you remember? We were all very confused about
S3: whether it was a joke at first or like whether
S3: it was staged. There was at least a kind of
S3: a few minutes where everyone was kind of confused about
S3: whether it was set up, one of those kind of interactive.
S5: Yeah. It just seemed so outrageous that.
S1: It actually happened.
S2: I remember shortly after that Osbourne was like, you have
S2: to write this anatomy of the slap piece, where I
S2: broke it down into like, it was like, you know,
S2: it was like a replay of a of a football
S2: game or something and like, broke it down piece by piece.
S2: And we got like vision made up. And that was
S2: another one of those times where I'm like, I used
S2: to be somebody. And now here's one of those.
S1: Times where you said, oh, do I have to? And
S1: then it became one of the most beautiful and best read.
S5: It actually did absolutely pop up. What would have been like,
S5: is this.
S3: Even a story?
S5: Um, funnily.
S2: Enough, my Oscars moment comes from the same year I
S2: present to you two words. Ladies and gentlemen, Adele.
S7: Naseem, please welcome the wickedly talented one and only a dozen.
S2: Aside from the fact I love Travolta, I also love
S2: late era Travolta because he's just, like, fucking careening out
S2: of control. He's a pilot whose face doesn't move. Um,
S2: everything he does is hilarious. But the fact that, you know,
S2: we can still have something like the Oscars, which is
S2: the most heavily coordinated, one of the most watched black
S2: cultural events in the world, and you can still have
S2: these hilarious slip ups. It's very funny. Obviously, it was
S2: when John Travolta went up on stage to introduce, um,
S2: actor and songstress Idina menzel. Um, who was going to,
S2: you know, perform Let It Go from frozen. And he
S2: obviously he's I guess his logic is that he misread
S2: the phonetic spelling of her name on the teleprompter, and
S2: he said, Adele, dizzy. And I was just like, what
S2: the fuck, Travolta? Um, and, you know, funnily enough, it was. Yeah,
S2: it was ten years ago. Two days ago, I think. Um,
S2: so Idina menzel went on Instagram to wish Adele regime
S2: a happy.
S5: Happy 10th birthday, which was very funny.
S2: Um, so yeah, that's my one that stands out.
S1: It's funny that all of ours are kind of fuckups,
S1: like no moments, just like, wow, the first so-and-so to
S1: win an Oscar because mine is my favorite moment of
S1: all time. The 2017 Moonlight La La Land clusterfuck, which which,
S1: if you don't remember, Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty were
S1: announcing the winner of Best Picture. Everyone knew it was
S1: down to La La Land and Moonlight. That was like
S1: shades of the 2009 VMAs. It's kind of like clash
S1: of of race and culture and films and what stories matters,
S1: this beautiful, queer black story that just looked stunning compared
S1: to this movie about Hollywood. You know, I'm not a
S1: big La La Land guy, you guys know that. And
S1: then they announced that it's La La Land. All the
S1: producers jump up, everyone's celebrating. It's pretty exciting. Then Jordan Horowitz,
S1: the producer, looks at the envelope and says, there's been
S1: a mistake. Moonlight, you guys won Best Picture.
S8: We lost, by the way. But, you know.
S9: I'm sorry. No, there's a mistake. There's a mistake. Moonlight.
S9: You guys won best picture. Moonlight won.
S10: This is not a joke. This is not a joke.
S10: I'm afraid they read the wrong thing. This is.
S9: This is not a joke. Moonlight has won Best picture.
S9: Moonlight Best Picture.
S1: I watched that clip multiple times a week. It gives
S1: me chills. No one knows what's going on. It is insane.
S1: How do they get it wrong? I was liveblogging those
S1: awards for a different company I was working for at
S1: the time. I did the same thing I made you do, Thomas.
S1: I did like an anatomy of it screenshots, time frames,
S1: where it all went wrong. It was just so good
S1: and I love that it lives on in Oscars history.
S2: And again, it's just like, how does this happen? Not
S2: since the winner of Australia's Next Top model has.
S5: Such a disaster, but like, yeah.
S2: I mean, it just was like that heart in the
S2: mouth moment. Similar, I guess, to to the Will Smith thing.
S2: Like everything in our world really is often so like
S2: scripted and expected and there's not much room for chaos.
S2: And so when stuff like that happens, especially at these
S2: moments where, you know, like much of the world is watching,
S2: it's just it's kind of beautiful.
S5: Yeah.
S3: I like the, you know, there's no chaos until there
S3: is chaos and then it's absolute chaos.
S1: And because this involves like people who make the best
S1: films in the world, you think they can get a broadcast, right?
S1: They can produce a ceremony. So I think you're spot on.
S1: I think that element of chaos is why we love
S1: the alive award ceremony as much as, like, who actually
S1: wins and loses.
S3: Yeah. Gosh, it would be good to have a like
S3: a kind of documentary of what went on behind the
S3: scenes after that kind of is.
S5: It Warren Beatty is that.
S2: Really old and can't.
S5: Fucking say anything anymore? Yeah, yeah it is.
S1: He did, I think I think from memory, like he
S1: took the wrong envelope. He took it Emma Stone's envelope
S1: for Best Actress, and he was confused and it had
S1: La La Land on it. And he's like, well, I
S1: guess that's the best picture. And so that's what happened.
S5: If I.
S3: Say it with confidence.
S5: They'll believe me.
S1: Now. Warren Beatty rules like good on him. And it
S1: led to a very funny moment. So very happy for
S1: everyone involved. Except, anyway, moonlight got the award. That's what matters.
S5: Um.
S1: Speaking of awards, I thought it'd be interesting to do
S1: a bit of a reflection on last year's awards. Uh,
S1: I think they're actually an interesting case study into how
S1: the Oscars work and why some movies and actors and
S1: directors win, when it might not necessarily seem super obvious.
S1: It's a good way to kind of ground ourselves before
S1: we talk about what could happen this year on Monday.
S1: So last year, 2023 was basically a sweep for everything everywhere,
S1: all at once. It won Best Picture, Best Director for
S1: the two, Daniels, Best Original Screenplay for the Daniels Best Editing,
S1: Best Actress for Michelle Yeoh, Best Supporting Actor for Kwan,
S1: and Best Supporting Actress for Jamie Lee Curtis. It was
S1: ultimately just one shy of what we call in the
S1: business the Big five. When a film wins Best Picture,
S1: best director, best screenplay, actor and actress, that's only happened
S1: three times in history. Uh, it happened One Night, One
S1: Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and The Silence of the lambs.
S1: Last one was 1991. So I watched this movie again,
S1: like late last year after all the awards. And honestly,
S1: I found it like a bit harder to sit through
S1: than the first time I remember thinking the first one.
S1: This is pretty wacky and fun. It's kind of interesting,
S1: but do you guys think a year on that? It
S1: kind of stacks up that this movie won so many
S1: Academy Awards?
S3: I haven't gone back and watched it, and I have
S3: to say I enjoyed it at the time and same
S3: as you. I found it kooky and different, and it
S3: wasn't like anything else that was out at that time
S3: of the year, and it had an interesting cast. Um,
S3: but it really did seem that that year it was
S3: kind of just on point. And I think we do
S3: see this with the Oscars often. One film kind of
S3: steals a lot of the oxygen, and it gets all
S3: the hype in the build up to the Oscars campaign
S3: and the kind of vibe is on its side, and
S3: then it sweeps a lot of them. And then, you know,
S3: it doesn't particularly always age well. I still think this
S3: film is really good. Do I think it would have
S3: won all those Oscars this year? Probably not, because I
S3: think the mood is different that we're in right now,
S3: and I think its success was a direct reflection of
S3: kind of the world that was voting for it and
S3: created it at the time. So no, I think it
S3: was like pretty limited to that year. And that moment
S3: and wouldn't necessarily have the same success at another time.
S3: What do you think, Thomas?
S2: I think Top Gun Maverick was robbed, which I think
S2: was like obvious. No, like I yeah, I don't really
S2: love everything everywhere all at once. Like, not as much
S2: as everyone else seems to. I do like in my
S2: most cynical part, I think, oh God, was the Oscars.
S2: Just like, did they see a big opportunity to, like,
S2: write some maybe historical wrongs and just kind of like
S2: hand out, you know, in this one year, like, make
S2: themselves feel better about their checkered history. I do think
S2: there were better films. Um, and I especially think Jamie
S2: Lee Curtis, which I know will get on to. But
S2: that was like a fucking stitch up of a win.
S2: I think that was them playing catch up. Uh, and
S2: also I think similarly, Cate Blanchett sadly, was the best
S2: actress that year and she was robbed. So that's my
S2: thoughts on it. But this is this is a problem
S2: that the Oscars faces. It's a vicious cycle they're stuck in.
S2: And and yeah, I mean time will tell if Oppenheimer
S2: basically does the same thing this year, I think it
S2: will go even further. Um. Yeah, it's a funny thing.
S2: And I think what you said is right, Mel, sometimes
S2: we go into this season and the way, you know,
S2: the major kind of critic awards go and the Globes
S2: and stuff, and by the time we get to Oscars,
S2: it's like, well, this is the way that everyone like,
S2: this is the way the wind is blowing. So it's
S2: like an inevitable.
S1: Yeah. I'm glad you brought up those kind of make
S1: good Oscars, as I call them, where someone gets rewarded
S1: because the Oscars want to rectify a historical either injustice
S1: or someone's turn. Right. They've been this big part of
S1: Hollywood for so long, they haven't gotten an Oscar, and
S1: so they give it to them. But what that really
S1: does is it then creates another example of someone who
S1: probably deserved it, didn't get it, that they have to, like,
S1: make good down the track. And I think there were
S1: a few of those examples with with everything everywhere. I
S1: thought like the acting categories is so interesting because they
S1: give you a bit of a snapshot of how different
S1: narratives can can lead to a performance that you might
S1: not think as being the best performance. Winning Michelle Yeoh
S1: is an interesting example. Was she better than Cate Blanchett
S1: in Tar like? I don't think so. I think Tarr
S1: was an astonishing movie, and I thought Cate Blanchett did
S1: an extraordinary job. But the Oscars aren't just like a
S1: liberal who was the best in a movie. There's all
S1: these questions and and conversations and in historical threads, like Blanchett,
S1: for example, has an Oscar, Michelle Yeoh hasn't won an Oscar,
S1: and if she was to win, which she did, she
S1: would have become and did become the first East Asian
S1: woman to do so. Right. So that's like a big
S1: a big factor in that. And I think everything everywhere
S1: was was really wrapped up with the identity politics of
S1: that movie and the story it told. Then. Kwan, who
S1: won Best Supporting Actor, it was sort of similar, like
S1: you could argue, and I probably would, that both Barry
S1: Kuhn and Brendan Gleeson gave more compelling performances in Banshees
S1: of Inisherin like Kwan was fine, but he had this
S1: amazing comeback narrative, right? He was basically written out of
S1: Hollywood because of racism for decades and decades. He gave
S1: powerful speeches when he won at other awards, and it
S1: just became a story of like, we've got to rectify
S1: the injustice we did to win. Sorry, Barry and Brendan,
S1: and you mentioned Jamie Lee Curtis Thomas like that feels
S1: like a total just like Jamie Lee Curtis. Thank you
S1: for everything you've done for Hollywood. Take this award because
S1: she's like, that role is fine. I don't think she
S1: thought when she was doing it she was going to
S1: be up for an Oscar, right?
S2: Definitely not.
S3: Yeah. But I do think we have to be careful
S3: in a way, because you're speaking about like the Oscars
S3: decided and it is like a member voted award. You know.
S1: We'll get into all of that.
S5: Yeah. All right. Yeah.
S3: Because I think that that yeah. It's not like the
S3: an institution is necessarily being like, you deserve this. It's
S3: like people voting. Not that there can't be campaigns and
S3: there's not like kind of groupthink in that, but maybe we'll, uh,
S3: I can maybe we'll pin that. I feel like there's
S3: more to be said.
S2: I just for the second time, this podcast wanted to
S2: quote the ever wise Rob Moran because he wrote about
S2: this recently about award ceremonies playing catch up. And he said,
S2: call it the who are effect the West. Sorry, Mr. Pacino,
S2: we didn't watch Dog Day afternoon in the 70s because
S2: of cocaine. Here, take this for scent of a woman.
S5: And it's very true. And yeah, and, you.
S2: Know, it's funny, I was watching DiCaprio's acceptance speech for
S2: winning for The Revenant, which is not his best film.
S2: He was a six time nominee. He probably should have
S2: won for The Departed. And, you know, he got the
S2: the Oscar for The Revenant. Same thing with Scorsese winning
S2: for The Departed instead of Goodfellas. Like, the list is endless. Uh, and,
S2: you know, again, I'll quote Rob here, who actually recalled
S2: the very recent and very wise words of Jay-Z, who
S2: said these organizations at least have to get it close to. Right.
S1: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's good to have that history.
S1: And I think that's why Michael Shulman's book is so interesting,
S1: because for people who have just like, jumped on the
S1: Oscars train and are really excited about what it says,
S1: they always do weird things like, do not look to
S1: them to be an objective, you know, decider of what
S1: the best film or the best performance are, that they're
S1: a political organization in the sense that. And you're right, Mel,
S1: we're about to get into how they're deciding things. But
S1: everyone in the academy, the near 10,000 members, have their
S1: own personal views and biases. A lot of them don't
S1: watch every movie. And yes, there are campaigns and narratives
S1: that push people in certain directions, but they're very fallible.
S1: They'll be the first to admit that they've made outrageous.
S1: Troy Green Book won an Oscar, Driving Miss Daisy beat
S1: Do the Right Thing, and it's almost because they get
S1: things wrong a lot that I think it's so interesting
S1: to talk about, because it'd be kind of boring if
S1: they just nailed it all the time.
S3: I do think, too, that, like, really good stuff is
S3: often not appreciated in its time, which speaks to some
S3: of what we're saying about people being recognized well after
S3: the moment of their art. Like great art, doesn't necessarily
S3: shine in the moment. What's the kind of the marry
S3: the age widow in the next, which I always talk about, like,
S3: you know, if you're so on point as an artist,
S3: I don't know, sometimes you don't necessarily last the test
S3: of time. And I guess some of these historical revisions
S3: are people being recognized later on for the influence and
S3: significance they had then, but it wasn't appreciated.
S1: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. All right,
S1: let's let's, um, let's break down how these awards are
S1: actually decided. What do you guys know about how the
S1: Academy decides who is nominated and who wins?
S2: They don't just ask Warren Beatty.
S3: And I know the very respectable PricewaterhouseCoopers is doing the auditing.
S5: So that's are not always to be found.
S2: I don't have I don't know if I know I
S2: don't like I'm sure when you inevitably tell me in
S2: about two minutes I'll be like, oh yeah, I did
S2: know that, but I don't think I know exactly how
S2: it works.
S3: I do know, but it's very complicated. So I'm going
S3: to hand over to Osmond. He's read this book called
S3: Oscar Wars.
S5: I might.
S3: Be able to, uh, he might be able to.
S5: Shine. Let me tell you.
S1: I've gone super deep. And even if you go in
S1: the Academy's website when they explain voting and stuff, it's
S1: very superficial. And me being like a kind of, I guess,
S1: election numbers nerd as well, was really fascinated in the
S1: specific mechanics of all of this. So. So I've gone
S1: pretty deep and it turns out it is super fascinating. Uh,
S1: believe it or not. But I think the first thing
S1: we should say and this this is to your point,
S1: all these awards are like are not judged. They are
S1: voted on. And by that I mean no one gets
S1: together and says, okay, so we've all watched these movies.
S1: Now let's sit down in a room for a couple
S1: of hours and debate what deserves a nomination. And and
S1: a win like this is an anonymous ballot. Obviously, people
S1: talk to each other about what they think is good,
S1: and we'll get into campaigning later on. But the nominations
S1: and the winners are the result of like thousands of
S1: discreet votes. It's more like an election than like a
S1: literary awards judging panel where you just debate and decide
S1: these things. And so who, who, who votes? The Academy
S1: is made up of just under 10,000 people from all
S1: around the world. It's actually a 60% increase from around
S1: a decade ago. And that big increase happened because the
S1: academy was trying to diversify its membership in terms of gender,
S1: race and nationality. Each of those members is divided into
S1: different branches. It's like actors and the acting branch directors
S1: are in the directing branch, etc. and when you get
S1: to voting, this is where it gets really interesting. There
S1: are two rounds of voting. First is deciding who the
S1: nominees are. Each branch gets to vote on the eligible
S1: movies to decide who's nominated, and every category has got
S1: five nominees except for Best Picture, which is ten, and
S1: everyone gets to vote on that. So basically, if you're
S1: a director, you get to decide who the nominees for
S1: Best Director are. If you're a writer, you decide on
S1: Best screenplay. The method used this is where, like Nerdy
S1: Brain is. And if you're an Australian political science fan,
S1: you're definitely going to want to turn the volume up
S1: on this one. The method used to vote and decide
S1: on the nominees is a system called proportional preferential voting.
S1: Where have you heard that before, Thomas?
S2: Succession? No. Like when we vote in the federal election.
S1: Yes. That is the system used to elect the Senate
S1: in Australia.
S3: You're going to Canberra. You always wanted to go. You're going.
S2: It was always my next posting.
S1: Every federal election, we elect six senators from every state
S1: using proportional preferential voting. And that is the same system
S1: the Academy uses to decide the nominees. How cool is that?
S2: Pretty cool.
S5: I think it's really cool. I think it's really cool
S5: because Australia is it's.
S1: Really Senate electoral system is like kind of. It's pretty
S1: rare in the Anglosphere and America doesn't use it famously
S1: for its federal elections. And I think it's kind of
S1: wacky that the Oscars are like, cool, let's use the
S1: insane Senate system to decide our nominees. So that's a
S1: fun one.
S2: That is a fun one.
S1: Thank you for encouraging me on this. Um, okay. So
S1: then when you have your nominees, it's time for the
S1: second round of voting. And I think a lot of
S1: people don't know that the second round where you decide
S1: who actually wins takes place in late February, and it
S1: only goes for like about a week. People lodged their
S1: ballots online. And this time everyone is allowed to vote
S1: in every category. So doesn't matter if you're an actor,
S1: director and editor or writer, you can vote on every
S1: single award. The voting system this time is much more straightforward.
S1: It's just first past the post, which is the system
S1: they use in the US presidential election. Whoever gets the
S1: most votes wins, even if they don't get over 50%.
S1: You're following me on that one? Yep, yep. The exception, however,
S1: is Best Picture, where they use preferential voting so you
S1: can number your ballots from 1 to 10, which is
S1: just like the system we use for the House of Representatives.
S1: So basically the Oscar system. Is pretty akin to the
S1: system we use to elect Australian Parliament.
S3: And what do you take? What is.
S5: So meaningful.
S3: To you?
S1: What isn't it cool like? I mean, maybe it's not cool.
S1: Maybe I'm the only person the Venn diagram of the
S1: Oscars and the Australian political system. But I just found
S1: that out, like in the last few weeks, that specifics
S1: of how the voting works and the fact that it
S1: mirrors something that we are so familiar with, but most
S1: Americans have no idea about is really interesting. And when
S1: you when you hear Academy like employees talk about this,
S1: they're like, most voters have no idea how any of
S1: this works that's so unfamiliar, even though they can put
S1: preferences down. They don't, because I just don't understand how
S1: preferences work. But why? Why, I guess it's relevant is
S1: up until a few years ago, the Academy only had
S1: five Best Picture nominees, and when they expanded it to ten,
S1: they realized they had to include preferences because you could
S1: end up with a situation where one film gets 12%
S1: of the vote and becomes Best picture, even though 88%
S1: of people didn't think it was the best one. So
S1: they had to change the mechanism to make sure that
S1: the actual best picture is reflective of what most people
S1: think is the best picture, if that makes sense.
S3: Yeah. That does.
S2: That actually is surprisingly interesting.
S1: I'm so glad you said so. I was worried I
S1: was losing you guys, but I think understanding these things
S1: helps you understand why sometimes you get divergences right between
S1: best picture and actors and actresses, and also makes me
S1: really fascinated to look at what I would love them
S1: if they somehow someday decided to release the raw votes
S1: for these movies. Like how many votes did a certain
S1: movie a certain actress get to get the award? It's
S1: super interesting.
S2: The podcast is just increasingly becoming like Osborne's fringe interest
S2: each week.
S5: I feel like we, both you and the awards.
S1: Are not a fringe interest, my.
S2: Friend. No, no no no.
S1: But frankly, that's what it's always been. So yeah.
S5: Yeah, yeah.
S3: Because you didn't do history and I'm at uni. Right.
S3: So now we're kind.
S5: Of yeah.
S3: We're up to date.
S1: Okay. So that's like the system. That's how it works.
S1: But in reality the actual process or I guess the campaigning,
S1: the way that this plays out behind the scenes and
S1: in front of the screens is way more interesting than
S1: just like how votes are tabulated by PricewaterhouseCoopers. I want
S1: to ask you guys about campaigning. Like we see this happen.
S1: We are kind of sometimes part of it, right? Where
S1: you get a PR person saying, hey, can you do
S1: an interview with this actor or actress or director? They
S1: want that person part of the narrative. They want that
S1: person talking about all the specific things they did to
S1: make this movie so good. Because Oscar voters and there
S1: are lots of Australian Oscar voters in the Academy might
S1: be swayed by that and might vote for that person.
S1: How do you guys feel about campaigning more generally? And also,
S1: any interesting highlights from the campaign for this year's Oscars
S1: that are stood out to you?
S3: Yeah, I do think it's a little less for the
S3: Oscars than it has been previously for the Golden Globes,
S3: because for the Golden Globes, you have to be a
S3: member of the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. And then they
S3: really do sometimes only give access to actors, to people
S3: who are part of that association, um, knowing that they
S3: will be voting. So the Oscars is slightly different just
S3: because of the sheer number of people who can vote.
S3: But I mean, yeah, you do see the momentum and
S3: the push that develops behind these films, and none of
S3: it just kind of rarely does it grow authentically, as
S3: we were obviously talking about earlier in the pod. So
S3: like I would say, like in some ways Saltburn isn't
S3: on the list for, um, nominated for best films, but
S3: I reckon that was kind of quite a momentous push
S3: to try to get that to be part of the
S3: Oscar conversation, the way that that films kind of suddenly
S3: took off at the box office speaks to like, a
S3: marketing campaign that was rolled out and kind of capitalised
S3: on what was going on in the conversation to push
S3: it back to the forefront. So I do feel I
S3: do think you see some of those smaller films and
S3: then in the bigger films like, you know, with Scorsese,
S3: Christopher Nolan, Yorgos Lanthimos, you know, the huge stars are
S3: everywhere in the lead up to the releases of these films. Um,
S3: the releases are kind of tied to the start of
S3: the Oscar voting. Often, though, in Australia we get them
S3: at a different time. Um, so yeah, I mean, I
S3: think you can see that the campaigns do push certain
S3: films to the forefront of public discussion, and then they're
S3: often the films that are then reflected in the Oscars.
S2: Yeah, I think it's funny. Like I remember last year, um,
S2: our colleague Meg, who is currently on maternity leave, but
S2: like just a week before the Oscars, they just, like,
S2: made Austin Butler available to her. Do you remember that
S2: she did a really long sit down with Austin Butler
S2: like he was? He was in the middle of a
S2: very intense campaign, uh, to win Best actor for Elvis.
S2: He was probably the best shot that film had at
S2: a big award. And yeah, like I remember even saying
S2: to yours, like, it's so weird that Austin Butler is just, like,
S2: got like 45 minutes the week before the Oscars because
S2: they were just, like, really putting him out there to like,
S2: push hard. And, you know, he kind of was it
S2: was a great interview. You should go back and check
S2: it out. But yeah, it is interesting that, you know,
S2: even though we kind of look at these awards and
S2: think everything's maybe like preordained or it all feels so
S2: far away, like it is still such a big campaigning
S2: thing and you've ever spent time in especially like in the.
S2: Around any kind of, like, awards season. Like, we don't
S2: get it as much over here because we're not like,
S2: obviously in the ecosystem, but like over there, it's like
S2: the full billboards, like for your consideration. And, you know,
S2: on TV the ads are like relentless, like it's the,
S2: the constant pushing down your throat of the message of
S2: like vote and like it's just like pushing the awareness.
S2: And we don't really get it here as much. It's
S2: a very strange thing to say.
S1: Yeah. And, and all these studios have got big budgets
S1: for not just marketing movies, but for the Oscars specifically.
S1: Like for those ads, they also more often in the
S1: States than elsewhere, but also elsewhere, particularly as the Academy
S1: has become more internationalized. We'll host events and they'll get
S1: the actors and the directors there, and they'll it's like
S1: a political campaign. There are rules around campaign finance, like
S1: what you can and can't spend money on, and people
S1: will shake hands. There was, uh, someone telling a story
S1: on a podcast I was listening to where they're like,
S1: I'm voting for. I think it was Robert De Niro. No,
S1: it was Robert Downey Jr, because he just came up
S1: to me and said, hey, I'm Robert Downey Jr. How's
S1: your day going? He's like, great, I'm voting for him.
S1: So I think this goes to the point of like,
S1: it is just like 10,000 weird film nerds or people
S1: that used to make films, in some cases, voting on
S1: these things based on sometimes what they think is good,
S1: sometimes like an interview that they read that really compelled them,
S1: and sometimes who was nice to them, like a la,
S1: you know, luncheon event. That is a really interesting campaign
S1: move by, I think, neon, who distributed anatomy of a fall.
S1: And I don't want to give too much away, but
S1: the dog in that movie plays a few crucial roles. Uh,
S1: the dog's real name is messy. They brought that dog
S1: to the Oscars luncheon, and so every actor wanted to
S1: take a selfie with it. All the media, like, took
S1: photos of it. And so all of a sudden, for
S1: a week in the key voting period, everyone is talking
S1: about anatomy of a fall, like those kinds of tricks
S1: are used just to get your film in front of people.
S3: And it would be interesting to see actually, how many
S3: voting Australians we have in in the Oscars, because it
S3: could speak to how much access we get to these people,
S3: and also to the release dates of films here. Because
S3: if they're looking at Australia as a smaller or larger
S3: voting bloc, I think it would kind of determine how
S3: films are rolled out here. I don't I don't think
S3: we do have those numbers, but it would be fascinating.
S1: I would love to have the more data on this stuff,
S1: the better. And I, you know, maybe I will start
S1: a consultancy on the slide just helping rally votes for
S1: different movies. Um, the other part to this, I guess
S1: story is, is what we call the precursor awards. And Thomas,
S1: you were you were talking about these before. Like you
S1: can sort of basically start to predict what happens at
S1: the Oscars by looking at things like the Golden Globes,
S1: the Critics Choice, the Directors Guild, the SAG Awards. You
S1: want to talk a bit about that?
S2: Yeah. Like the there's. It's funny, certain awards seem to
S2: carry more weight. Um, but like awards season generally you
S2: start to get an idea of like which films are
S2: the ones that seem to be leading the way and
S2: specifically in like, you know, like best actor and actress
S2: and supporting actor and actress. You really get a sense
S2: of like, who the voters are going with. Or if
S2: it's a two horse race, we can start to see like, okay.
S2: But like critically, you know, the Critics Choice are going with, uh,
S2: you know, let's say Cillian Murphy and Oppenheimer, whereas SAG
S2: has gone with Paul Giamatti and The Holdovers. And and
S2: it's really funny because we talked about it last week
S2: in a story SAG especially, which is one of the
S2: last awards of the season. Very like the overlap with
S2: the Oscars winners is like almost like for like, um,
S2: so that's often a big one. But yeah, we have
S2: this full awards season now that by the end of it, um,
S2: you know, the Oscars is kind of the cherry on top,
S2: but it almost robs us of, of, of the mystery
S2: because it's like, well, really it's going to come down
S2: to like, you know, 1 or 2 films and there's
S2: going to be 1 or 2 categories where we maybe
S2: don't know, but we're pretty sure, like, you know, it's
S2: created this system whereby the mystery is gone a little bit. But, uh, yeah,
S2: basically come March, um, the whole industry has an idea
S2: of like, you know, if you're just turning up as
S2: a nominee and you know, you're not like, there's not
S2: a chance you're winning.
S3: Yeah. And if you look at like the kind of
S3: the what the, the odds that the betting companies are
S3: putting on it like everyone. Well, the, the gamblers are
S3: pretty sure that they know who is winning every single
S3: category at this point when it comes to the Oscars.
S2: Yeah, the bookies odds for this year's like pretty depressing.
S2: If you go and look at it like it doesn't
S2: it doesn't doesn't like make you want to watch the
S2: Oscars a bunch because it's like, well, they know who's
S2: going to win.
S1: Well, I think that very neatly brings us to this
S1: year's awards. Let's start by listing the ten nominees for
S1: Best Picture. Uh, they are, in no particular order, American fiction.
S1: And actually, I lied. They are in alphabetical order. I
S1: was about.
S5: To say that's quite clearly alphabetical.
S1: Uh, American fiction. Anatomy of a fall. Barbie. The holdovers.
S1: Killers of the Flower Moon. Maestro. Up and Huma, Past Lives,
S1: Poor Things, and The Zone of Interest. And how do
S1: we feel about that list? It's so interesting, because I
S1: feel like there are a couple of movies where at
S1: certain moments, I was like, that's probably going to win.
S1: Like when killers of the Flower Moon came out, it
S1: felt like cool, this big epic Scorsese thing that he
S1: really pulled off. But then Oppenheimer drops, you know, the
S1: zone of interest drops. Things start to shift a little bit.
S1: What are your thoughts on on the list of nominees,
S1: and do you think anything's missing from it?
S3: I'm pretty happy with that list. I think that does
S3: hit the big ones. There are two that, and I
S3: don't necessarily believe that they should be on that list,
S3: but it is interesting that they haven't got a look
S3: in and one.
S5: Bit you think, yeah.
S3: Best actress for sure. Um, Napoleon.
S5: Huge. You're obsessed. Are you talking in. Oh, that's so rogue.
S1: Mel.
S5: That's not great.
S3: No it's not. No, no, I don't think it's a
S3: great film. But I do think like, it's complete lack
S3: of kind of relevance. You know, there was a huge
S3: buildup to that film and it's such a big name,
S3: a big filmmaker. Are you going to like.
S5: Producing it.
S2: On Napoleon and.
S5: Like, getting money in the back end? Yeah, yeah.
S3: I train the horse. Um, and the other one that
S3: maybe I could see being on best Film. Priscilla I
S3: liked that film. Um, Sofia Coppola's Priscilla. Um, I could
S3: see it sitting on there, like, as comfortably as some
S3: of the others on that list. So I thought they
S3: were too kind of notable absences. Um, not that I
S3: think they deserve to win. Um, but yeah, I could
S3: have seen them on that list.
S1: What about you, Thomas?
S2: Uh, yeah. I've been banging this drum for a while.
S2: You guys are going to both laugh at me. I
S2: reckon fair play. Should have got a nomination for Best Picture.
S5: I'm obsessed with that film.
S3: You're always talking about it.
S2: Well, I actually am, but it was. It was a
S2: good film, and it suffered from, like, being a Netflix release. Um,
S2: and I think it could have easily slotted in there. Um,
S2: Chloe directed and I thought the two leads were great,
S2: and I just thought it was a really interesting, like,
S2: film for our time. And it kind of just like,
S2: didn't get the credit it deserves. Uh, but yeah, that
S2: would have been my audition.
S1: Yeah. Mine one is the Iron Claw. The, um, Zac Efron, uh,
S1: Jeremy Allen White wrestling movie. Um, I thought that movie
S1: was astonishing. I think the reason for it not getting
S1: nominated or not really having much of a campaign, it's
S1: an A24 movie like Past Lives and A24 put all
S1: their chips on past life. This, this. You see this
S1: happen with small but also big studios like Netflix and,
S1: you know, and Apple and whatever they'll be like, this
S1: is the movie we're going for, and past Lives is great,
S1: and I'm glad it's nominated and I'm glad it's getting love.
S1: But the ankle just felt like a really obvious absence
S1: in the Oscars conversation to me. Yeah.
S2: Yeah. And I feel like lots of people are saying
S2: that post Iron Claw being released. I still haven't seen it. Um,
S2: but yeah, like one of the biggest things I've heard
S2: people say is that I'm like really shocked it didn't
S2: get nominated for Best Picture. So yeah, it's curious that
S2: that's been overlooked.
S1: I think it's probably time to talk about the, the, uh,
S1: atomic bomb sized elephant in in the room. And this
S1: is what you're alluding to, Thomas, with the betting odds
S1: looking pretty. Pretty grim. Oppenheimer is just like expected, both
S1: through what the bookies are saying and the precursor awards
S1: that you were talking about, to sweep basically everything. How
S1: do we feel about that?
S2: Ah, I feel like I've got Oppenheimer fatigue a little bit,
S2: to be honest. It's the the cultural juggernaut that was
S2: Barb and Heimer, um, was amazing to be a part of,
S2: and we all really enjoyed it. I mean, Osmond openly
S2: wept at the end of, um. Osmond wept openly at
S2: the end of Oppenheimer and then saw it again the
S2: next day.
S5: It was it was.
S3: June, the original June.
S5: Yeah, it's been.
S1: A big I ended up seeing Oppenheimer at Imax three times,
S1: I believe in a week.
S5: Yeah.
S2: But yeah, like it was it was a really cool
S2: thing to be a part of. And, you know, maybe
S2: just it's just the passing of time. Unfortunately, it's been
S2: a while and it feels like Oppenheimer hasn't gone away.
S2: And it's a great movie, but I think I find
S2: it very like depressing to go into Oscar season and
S2: knowing that this film is just going to sweep. And
S2: I do have some major issues with some of the
S2: categories that it is predicted to sweep in.
S3: I think Oppenheimer is a stunning film, and I've watched
S3: it multiple times since, and I think it's incredible work
S3: by all the actors, um, and, and the filmmaker. And,
S3: but I do think it is maybe one of the
S3: safer films on that list. And often safer films do
S3: win awards because the more polarizing films.
S1: What do you mean, what do you mean by safe?
S3: I think it's a more traditional film. I think the
S3: way Christopher Nolan tells stories. I mean, it's a biopic
S3: of an American figure who is his genius kind of
S3: is hard to control, who has to reckon with guilt
S3: and right and wrong like it is kind of. You're
S3: talking about, maestro.
S2: Yeah.
S3: I mean, I yeah, that's kind of a similar genre
S3: of film, right? Obviously Christopher Nolan's film is way better. Um,
S3: and Cillian Murphy is way better in it. But I
S3: do think it's a film we recognize, particularly Hollywood recognizes
S3: it's tried and true and tested. And I'm not saying
S3: that to take away from how powerful it is, but
S3: I think the format is kind of one that universally
S3: people agree on. And when people universally agree on something
S3: that's kind of going to win, where is more like,
S3: you know, something like poor things is way more divisive,
S3: which is probably why we won't see it win. Best film.
S3: But this is where.
S2: Again, that catch up cycle comes into play because they're like, oh,
S2: we did the weird one last year. Like, we gave
S2: you everything everywhere all at once. Like that was you
S2: got the crazy A24 one. So this year we'll go
S2: back to more something more traditional. I agree with you.
S2: I think that, um, it, you know, Oscar bait is
S2: a term that gets thrown around a lot lately. But
S2: fuck me, Oppenheimer is Oscar bait to a T.
S1: Yeah, I, I see what you're saying. And I think
S1: in terms of the great man and and all that
S1: sort of stuff, it is traditional. But I also think
S1: Nolan and Killian and they did they did so many
S1: interesting things in that movie that made it a little
S1: bit more interesting than like other previous biopics out of one.
S1: But I think you're right. I mean, like, I think
S1: something like killers of the Flower Moon was told in
S1: such an interesting way, in such an interesting story that
S1: I would have loved to say that have more of
S1: a chance against something like Oppenheimer if Oppenheimer wasn't in
S1: this race. Do you guys think there's another obvious film
S1: that would be sweeping the way Oppenheimer is, or do
S1: you think things would be a little bit more disjointed,
S1: like Best Picture could go that way. Best Actor could
S1: go in a different way.
S2: I think things would be way more fractured if Oppenheimer
S2: wasn't in. I don't reckon there would be another obvious
S2: like sweep film, I think. You then say like the
S2: big five awards go to, like possibly five different films
S2: or these, you know, fractured.
S3: Yeah, I think I think maybe killers might have had
S3: more of a shoo in for Best Picture. I do
S3: think on Oppenheimer two, it's the narrative. Like if Hollywood
S3: is largely voting for this, an American institution, the story
S3: of the atomic bomb is something that really speaks deeply
S3: to the US, say, psyche and kind of their reckoning
S3: of their history and role in the global kind of community,
S3: I think. I don't know, I do think it speaks
S3: to that audience very differently as well to the Australian audience,
S3: which might be why we're seeing it kind of dominates
S3: so strongly.
S1: And also the Academy, the Academy loves movies that are like, oh, wow,
S1: like we persecuted communists in the 50s. And that was
S1: pretty bad. And war's pretty bad. Like, the Academy does
S1: have that small liberal sensitivity that makes Oppenheimer pretty appealing. Film. Mhm. Totally.
S1: I thought as a way, it's a little bit more
S1: fun to talk about the other categories, rather than just
S1: listing who's nominated and debating it. We could play a
S1: little game. So for Best Picture, Best Director, Best actress,
S1: Best Actor and the two screenplay categories adapted and original,
S1: we could share who we think. We want to win
S1: and who we think will win. I have a bit
S1: of a chat about those, and then when we do
S1: our Oscars kind of review show on Monday, we can.
S1: To hold ourselves accountable and see who actually won. How
S1: do you guys feel about that?
S3: I'm keen. Love a game.
S1: Well, let's start with Best Picture. I'll go first because
S1: I'm probably the most boring on this one. I do
S1: like I think I said I like killers of the
S1: Flower Moon a lot, but I think Oppenheimer is a
S1: great movie. I think it's like, you know, probably my
S1: favorite movie of the last year, and I think it
S1: deserves to win. I also think it will win. Uh,
S1: so happy to just get my boring best picture take
S1: out of the way.
S3: Yeah, you need to be in the academy.
S5: Um.
S3: For my what? I want to win. I'm just going
S3: purely subjective for all of them. Okay? Like, I'm not
S3: even going based on, like, what I think is a
S3: good film. It's the film that I liked the best.
S5: Completely uncritically. Yeah.
S1: That's why you're here.
S3: What I think was the actual best film was anatomy
S3: of a fall. I think that film was incredible, unlike
S3: anything I've probably seen in a while. Interesting concept, interestingly shot, um,
S3: very moving and will stick with me for a while.
S3: What I think will win.
S1: A bit a bit anti man though, right.
S5: Well yeah yeah yeah this is Oppenheimer. Very all about
S5: the man.
S3: So yes I think because we are also as a
S3: society all about a man. Oppenheimer will win as we've
S3: just full flagged.
S2: Yes. Uh well look I, I think sadly Oppenheimer will win.
S2: It is a great film. And I loved Oppenheimer, but
S2: I don't think it's the best film. Um, this won't
S2: shock you, because I am obviously famous for my emotional intelligence.
S2: The film that deserves it most is Past Lives. Uh,
S2: that film, you know, you guys were very, very early
S2: on it, and you saw it both before me, and
S2: you both spoke about how great it was, and I
S2: watched it, and it really it really broke me. I
S2: thought it was a beautiful movie, um, in every aspect
S2: of filmmaking. And I just think, unfortunately, coming after a
S2: year where A24 did so well, I think it suffered
S2: from that. Um, but that's who should win. But obviously
S2: Oppenheimer will win.
S1: Yeah, I think that's a really good chat. It is
S1: a great movie. I think the other thing is the
S1: Oscars just generally don't reward debut filmmakers. It's like, good
S1: on you. You got your nomination now. Like do your time.
S1: One of the exceptions that was Emerald Fennell, who, as
S1: we've spoken about before, just bizarrely won Best screenplay for
S1: Promising Young Woman, uh, her debut feature. Um. All right,
S1: onto Best Director. Yeah. This is the one I thought
S1: long and hard about. I, I do think Scorsese deserves
S1: it for killers because of the way he both adapted
S1: that movie from the source text, the way he filmed it,
S1: the way he opened it and closed it. He just, like,
S1: did so many interesting things and pulled off a movie
S1: that was both entertaining and gripping. And as far as
S1: movies about American history go, we we kind of maybe
S1: didn't know all the details about Oppenheimer. We knew the
S1: big picture stuff. I think most people accept that they
S1: had no knowledge of what was going on in Oklahoma, uh,
S1: in that period of time. So I, I would put
S1: in a vote for Scorsese. But I do think Nolan
S1: will win just with the Oppenheimer train, uh, trundling on
S1: the way that it is.
S3: Oh, you have totally talked me into Scorsese. Like, I
S3: remember remembering now the feelings of killers. And I think
S3: I would also like to see him when I head
S3: down Yorgos Lanthimos, though, for Poor Things. Only because I
S3: think when you talk about director, when you look at
S3: who took the most risks, who was working with the
S3: most kind of interesting source material, who pushed actors and actresses,
S3: that furthers the kind of whole aesthetic of that film.
S3: I think in terms of interesting filmmaking, Yorgos Lanthimos takes
S3: the takes the prize, but I tend to agree that
S3: Christopher Nolan also will probably get the nod from the Academy.
S2: Yeah, I agree, I'm in line with Mel on this one.
S2: I think Nolan will win. Um, but I also think, uh,
S2: Yorgos deserves it. And not only because the movie is great,
S2: but because he is Greek. And let me tell you,
S2: the last director to win an Academy Award who is,
S2: you know, even like second generation Greek was Elia Kazan
S2: in 1954 for On the Waterfront. It's one of the
S2: great injustices in cinema. Uh, and, you know.
S1: Obviously, Eli Cezanne was also a rat who betrayed former
S1: members of the Communist Party to the House. Uh, Committee
S1: on UN activity. Yeah. American activities. What do you.
S3: Have to say about that?
S2: I just say we take the wins where we can
S2: get them.
S1: And obviously.
S2: Yorgos was nominated in 2018, our very own George Miller
S2: nominated in 2015. But because of systemic racism, we've been
S2: overlooked since the 50s. And so.
S1: Uh, both of us outdoing each other on our insane takes.
S1: That's great. Okay. Best actor. This is interesting because I
S1: don't think this category is that stacked really. Like, I
S1: think when I think about some of the best performances
S1: of the year outside of Oppenheimer, I'm thinking about anatomy
S1: of a fall. I'm thinking about past lives. I'm thinking about,
S1: like a lot more performances from actresses. I thought, yeah, Killian,
S1: I think just really went for it in, in this.
S1: I think he should win and I think he will win.
S1: But interesting. You guys have a different take.
S3: Yeah, I completely, completely agree. Looking at the list, um,
S3: who's up for that? Bradley Cooper, Colman Domingo, Paul Giamatti,
S3: Jeffrey Wright and Cillian Murphy. Like, I feel like he is.
S3: Serving of that for sure.
S2: Do you think Kilian deserves that? This is probably like
S2: a should and will, although I will say, and we've
S2: had a bit of a chat about this in the office.
S2: And I know you fucking hate Maestro and Bradley Cooper.
S2: I feel bad for him.
S1: He is. I really do not like that movie and
S1: he is annoying me a lot.
S2: Okay, like I quite liked maestro, but also he like,
S2: he wants this. He is like, obsessed with winning an
S2: Oscar and, you know, like, let him have one.
S5: Yeah, but sometimes.
S3: You want things and you just don't.
S5: Get that. How the world works. Good on you. Do
S5: we feel a bit bad.
S2: For Bradley Cooper now? Like he is just he like,
S2: no one's working harder for that Oscar than Bradley Cooper.
S3: I think he's been overrated his entire career. And it's
S3: time for him to understand his place.
S5: He'll he'll get one now. He will.
S2: He'll do like the hangover 4 in 5 years. And
S2: they'll give it to him for that.
S3: I also don't think, like, I didn't mind that film
S3: as much as other people seem to, but, um, I
S3: don't think his role in it was that impressive, particularly
S3: not compared to Killian Murphy's. And I think the best
S3: parts of that movie were Carey Mulligan and him in
S3: dialogue and conflict with her, like, alone. He did not
S3: carry that film.
S2: Yeah, true. But anyway, it's all a moot point because
S2: Killian will win.
S1: Well, let's go to Best Actress. And this is one
S1: that I changed my mind on, like recently. Um, for
S1: a really interesting reason. Sandra Bullock, who is the lead
S1: in anatomy of a fall, but is also a really
S1: big part of the Zone of Interest, another movie nominated
S1: for Best Picture. And I know that people are nominated
S1: for like, individual movies, but the fact that she was like,
S1: astonishing and too pretty fascinating and interesting and very well
S1: made movies, uh, like hats Off to her in the
S1: same year. And I thought she really killed it in both.
S1: So I would love to see her win. Uh, I
S1: do think, and I'm not upset about this at all.
S1: I do think Lily Gladstone will win for killers of
S1: the Flower Moon. I know there's like a a lily
S1: versus Emma Stone thing going on. I think it's probably
S1: the most interesting category where we're not totally sure what's
S1: going to happen. Yeah, and I think Lily will win.
S1: She's won those awards. Thomas, that you mentioned tend to
S1: overlap the most with the Oscars. It seems like the
S1: most likely result.
S3: Yeah, I would really like to see Lily win. I
S3: think that what she did with that role, the kind
S3: of quiet power of the character she played is, was
S3: remarkable and very moving. And I think Emma Stone was
S3: fantastic in poor things and like really had to put
S3: herself out there as an actress. But it is in
S3: many ways a larger than life role versus what Lily
S3: Gladstone had to do with holding back, but still managing
S3: to convey so much. And I think in terms of acting,
S3: I was more impressed by Lily than than Emma. Um,
S3: so yeah, I think she should win. And I reckon
S3: she probably will too.
S2: Uh, yeah. I'm pretty sure that Legatum is going to
S2: win this category. I know that Emma Stone has kind
S2: of been tipped to win it, although just recently the
S2: bookies have like seen Lily move in front. That's interesting. Um,
S2: but I also think like it's one of those things where,
S2: you know, and like, I think lots of viewers often
S2: assume this like the Academy looks at what's happening and
S2: then it's like, well, just give out one here to
S2: make sure that, like, that film gets its big award
S2: and not that, you know, Lily's performance doesn't warrant the
S2: award anyway, but this feels like the category where if
S2: killers will, like, get it's just desserts. And and she
S2: was amazing in that movie. Emma Stone's already got an Oscar.
S2: Like it all just seems to add up that like,
S2: I think Lily Gladstone should and will win this category.
S1: So yeah, out of all of those, we basically all
S1: agree on who we think will win. Which is interesting
S1: because it means that we can't say we're better than
S1: the other on Monday. That is annoying. But also, I
S1: think speaks to how locked up the race is. A
S1: couple more categories to to whip through, which I thought
S1: would just add a little bit more uncertainty to the equation.
S1: Original and adapted screenplay. So original screenplay is where I
S1: think past lives could get a nod. It deserves to
S1: get a nod. It's a great screenplay, like it's we've
S1: talked about the movie before, don't need to go into
S1: it again. Just beautiful. Simple. Moving like just affected almost
S1: everyone I know who saw it. I think the holdovers
S1: will probably win just because GMT is like is is
S1: is part of this narrative. You know, after he won
S1: the Globes, he's being considered as a pretty close second
S1: to Killian in Best Actor category. So this could be
S1: where The Holdovers manages to to just get to get something.
S1: What do you guys thoughts on Original Screenplay?
S3: I would like to see anatomy of a Fall Win.
S3: I think that film is told in a really interesting wow.
S5: You really, really had a.
S1: Big impact on you.
S3: I thought it was pretty incredible. Like, did.
S2: You meet the dog?
S5: Yeah, I would.
S3: Love to. I would yeah.
S5: The dog is great though, isn't how good.
S3: Yeah, what a role I was the whole time. I
S3: was like, how did they get it to do that? Yeah. Um,
S3: I just think that how that story unfolded, like the
S3: kind of slow release of information at the same time
S3: as you're slowly starting to doubt people more and more like,
S3: I just think, I always think when you watch a
S3: film and you can't really see the joints of it
S3: like that is when I'm like wondering, how did they
S3: do that? How is it working? Like, that's a really
S3: good film. Um, so I think I would like to
S3: see that win. I actually think past lives will win. Interesting. Yeah.
S3: I think it's a way to acknowledge that. Movie which
S3: deserves to be acknowledged, um, to commend and encourage a
S3: first time filmmaker. Um, and that could be where it
S3: gets its nod, and it is well deserved to.
S1: If there was an award for best use of a
S1: steel band cover of $0.50 per amp, I think anatomy
S1: of a full should and would win that category.
S3: Yeah, it was in my head.
S5: So like for so.
S3: Long after the.
S5: Film, we could.
S2: Also do some like quite a fun, you know, best
S2: dog in a movie.
S5: Yeah.
S3: Do you have one at the.
S5: Top of your head? We'll do it next year.
S2: Anyway, I think Anatomy Before will win Best original Screenplay.
S1: Do you think it should?
S2: I think it should. Yeah. I think it should. Um,
S2: but I definitely think it's it's more curious to talk
S2: about best adapted. Um, which obviously we'll move on to
S2: now because of, you know, I mean, we've discussed this previously.
S2: The Barbie element.
S1: Yeah. Well, talk us through that. So Bobby ended up
S1: being put into that category because I guess the argument
S1: is that Barbie the doll is a source material that
S1: is being adapted.
S2: Yeah. So I think I believe it was originally submitted
S2: for Best Original because obviously, you know, the world and
S2: the story was completely created by, um, you know, Greta
S2: Gerwig and Margot Robbie and the entire team and Noah Baumbach,
S2: Gerwig's husband, who also co-wrote the movie. But then it
S2: was pushed into Best Adapted because they made the argument
S2: that there was original source material for Barbie. But, I mean,
S2: I don't know, it's now up against American fiction, Oppenheimer,
S2: Poor Things, and The Zone of Interest. Uh, pretty stacked field,
S2: but luckily, uh, both my should and will line up. Uh,
S2: it's a film that we all enjoy, the film that
S2: we discussed at length recently, and that is American fiction.
S3: Yeah. I would like to see American fiction when and
S3: particularly when you know that the book, Percival Everett's book
S3: is kind of written in a book within a book.
S3: I think the job of translating that to screen is
S3: pretty impressive. And the balancing of the satire with the
S3: familial relations, um, was really well done. So I'd like
S3: to see that when I reckon Barbie might win this,
S3: it will be controversial. Maybe it'll be the controversial moment
S3: of the Oscars, but I do think they might want
S3: to give Barbie a bit of a nod, and people
S3: might see this category as a way to celebrate that
S3: film and Greta Gerwig in her role in it.
S1: If, um, if killers was nominated, I would put in
S1: a plug for that. It's bizarrely not, even though I
S1: think it's maybe the best adapted screenplay this year, I,
S1: I think without that, I agree with you guys on
S1: American fiction. Don't be shocked if the zone of interest
S1: picks up here. Like, that movie is having a bit
S1: of a run at the moment. You know, picked up
S1: a bunch of awards at the BAFTAs. It's really landing
S1: with a lot of people, movies that that sort of
S1: discuss with or engage with the Holocaust have, have generally
S1: been pretty, you know, well received. Seems like a weird
S1: term to use. But the Oscars has acknowledged those movies
S1: generally in the past. Spielberg came out and said a
S1: very weird thing, that this is like the best Holocaust
S1: movie since Schindler's List, which sounds great until you remember
S1: that he made Schindler's List and was like, this is
S1: the best movie about this topic since the one that
S1: I did, so I think that could be an interesting
S1: one to watch as well. Are there any other categories
S1: you guys wanted to to mention any, any races or
S1: any particular films that we haven't touched on that, uh,
S1: deserve a little bit of conversation?
S2: Yes, I, I mean, it's no conversation about the Oscars
S2: is complete without getting a little bit parochial and talking
S2: about the Australians nominated, uh, obviously Margot was, uh, famously
S2: and controversially shut out, even though I think we all
S2: agreed that she probably didn't deserve a nomination. Uh, but yes,
S2: there are two Australians nominated in one category, which is
S2: live action short. So Niki Bentham, a producer of the after,
S2: which is on Netflix, and Sara MacFarlane, uh, red, white
S2: and blue. So they're both, uh, two Australian producers up
S2: against each other in best live action short. Uh, and
S2: actually I haven't seen either of those, but the after
S2: is kind of a hot favourite now, and we always
S2: love to see Australians do well. So that's Nicki Bentham
S2: up against Sara macfarlane in live action short.
S1: Great shout.
S3: We do. And we often the Australians we do really
S3: well in cinematography, historically has been where we often shine
S3: at the Oscars. Look I for music original song I
S3: wouldn't mind seeing. I'm just can get a nod. But
S3: particularly I'd like to get a nod over the Billie
S3: Eilish song.
S5: Was seriously enough.
S1: With the Billie Eilish thing.
S3: If one is going to get it from Bobby, I
S3: want it to be I'm just can.
S2: Yeah, I find the Billie Eilish song so like drab
S2: and yeah, I'm just getting way more fun.
S3: And I know the only other category I'm kind of
S3: interested in, only because I think a lot of the
S3: films we're talking about are so visually stunning is costume design,
S3: which we as Australians have also won in the past
S3: with Catherine Martin. Like when you look at the list
S3: for that Barbie, Poor Things, Killers and Napoleon and then Oppenheimer,
S3: which I would say probably isn't quite the same, though
S3: it does have stunning outfits like, yeah, who would you
S3: pick for that? They're all such remarkable acts of world
S3: building in their costuming.
S1: Totally, totally pull things. Or Barbie winning that would be
S1: would be pretty great. All right.
S5: Yeah.
S2: So it's so sad though, when we have a year where,
S2: like Mandy Walker or Catherine Martin aren't involved in a film,
S2: we're just like, not going to win any Oscars.
S1: Well, Greg Frazier will probably be nominated for cinematography for
S1: June part two next year.
S2: Oh my God.
S5: People get to.
S3: Relive it all over again.
S2: I was like, I saw it for the 800th time
S2: last week.
S1: And the only other thing that I wanted to mention,
S1: I won't go in deep on this one, is Best
S1: International Feature Film. I. I love this category, not just because,
S1: you know, it's also a category where Australians can sometimes compete,
S1: but the politics of it are the most fascinating. So
S1: the way this works, unlike the other categories that I
S1: ran through before, each country actually has a system whereby
S1: they nominate what the one movie from that country should
S1: be in terms of contention for Best International Feature Film.
S1: And in Australia, like it's Screen Australia, the government funded
S1: screen body that decides other countries have like the ministries
S1: of culture. So like the government picks the movie or
S1: they have like industry bodies and panels, it's a pretty
S1: interesting screen. Australia not a great track record. I think
S1: we've had one movie nominated since this category was introduced
S1: in the 90s, but there's actually a bit of drama
S1: around the French nominee, which this year was the taste
S1: of things, and a lot of people were upset that
S1: it wasn't anatomy of a fall because they thought it's
S1: nominated for Best Picture, it's nominated for Best Director. Why
S1: is Justine Tree's pretty good movie not in Best International Feature?
S1: And essentially there was like a lot of political bullshit
S1: that went down at the French body. There was a vote.
S1: It was 4 to 3 in favor of the taste
S1: of things instead of anatomy of a fall. One of
S1: the voters said, can I change my vote? I didn't
S1: realize I was going to be the swing vote. And
S1: they're like, no, you fucked up. I'm sorry. And seemingly
S1: the reason for it is, like the French film body
S1: has more conservative elements within it. And Justine Trier, when
S1: she won the Palme d'Or at Cannes since then gave
S1: a lot of speeches decrying the French government, accused them
S1: of being neo liberal stooges like basically has taken a
S1: very strong stance on a number of key issues which
S1: potentially alienated her from the French film body and probably
S1: cost France the best international feature Oscar. Because I think
S1: if anatomy was in, it would 100% have won this award.
S2: Yeah. That's crazy.
S5: Yeah.
S1: Geopolitics, man. This award rules the Oscars are the best.
S2: Oh, now I'm just like in 2000. Why did Screen
S2: Australia not put Wog Boys forward.
S5: That's like it.
S2: But seriously that was like the one time Nick Jonas
S2: got funding from Screen Australia is a good movie anyway.
S1: And on that note, we could have wrap up our
S1: 2024 Oscars deep dive. So we'll be back on Monday
S1: evening with a review and a wrap of the show
S1: and discussions of what worked, what went right and what
S1: went wrong, and hopefully some upsets to to chew on.
S1: But before we sign off, we're we've got our regular
S1: Impress Your Friends segment, something we watched read, listened to
S1: from the past week that we want to shout out, Thomas,
S1: why don't you go first this time?
S2: Yes, this is a Netflix show that's out today. It
S2: is the gentleman. This one's been coming for a little while.
S2: It's a spin off of the Guy Ritchie film. Um,
S2: and firstly, it's got a few things that I think
S2: make it really fun. Uh, it's firstly, it's got just
S2: a guy Ritchie's DNA all over it. Um, it's like
S2: proper gangsters, uh, you know, in London. The soundtrack is amazing. Uh,
S2: and the lead actor is Theo James, who, of course,
S2: we all know and love from The White Lotus. He's
S2: being very charming. He plays a guy named Eddie who
S2: basically his father dies. He he inherits, um, you know,
S2: a very impressive farm and house and also a, you know,
S2: becomes a duke. Uh, and then, as it turns out,
S2: the father had been basically leasing his land out to
S2: a nearby drug lord, and things kind of start to
S2: unravel from there. But, yeah, like I said, it's if
S2: you even have a passing interest in Guy Ritchie, you know,
S2: style and aesthetic and tone, this will be right up
S2: your alley. But aside from that, it's also just quite fun.
S2: Guy Ritchie can be a lot, but this is like
S2: him kind of honed and distilled at his very best. Uh,
S2: and that's on Netflix today.
S3: I am going this week with Abbey Morgan's. This is
S3: not a. Pity memoir, which is what it says. It
S3: is not. It is not a pity memoir. It's a
S3: great memoir. Abby Morgan, you might know she's a screamer.
S5: Is this a book?
S3: It is a.
S5: Book, don't you? Don't even say it anymore. No, no.
S1: No, I'm not, I'm not. I'm just checking. You didn't
S1: tell me what medium this this item came in. True.
S1: It's not a kitty.
S5: When I said.
S3: Memoir twice, maybe. But that also I've stitched up because
S3: Thomas doesn't read. It's like I'm doing TV. It's like, well,
S3: what's left? Um, you might know her. She's a screenwriter.
S3: She did like the Iron Lady suffragette. Shame. The hour,
S3: that TV show. Um, so it's a pretty remarkable tale.
S3: It's very funny the way it's told. Her husband has M.S.,
S3: and he goes on an experiment tree, um, drug trial
S3: that puts him into a coma. And when he wakes up,
S3: he does not realize who she is. He does not
S3: remember her. He is convinced that she is an imposter
S3: in the body of his partner. And it's just a
S3: fascinating story, but really. Well told and like, kind of heartbreaking,
S3: but humorous as well. Um, it's been a very buzzy book. Um,
S3: so I think, well, well worth the read.
S1: We low key. We're giving the best book recommendations on
S1: this show every week. Thanks to you, Mel. Like booktok.
S1: Eat your heart out. This podcast should be going ballistic
S1: amongst book lovers. These these recs are great. Like I'm
S1: not going to get around to reading it, but it's
S1: good for people.
S5: Yeah, yeah, you.
S3: Might need to sit in your guilt for a bit.
S1: Um, mine is a mine's a memoir, uh, Mel. Adapted
S1: into a TV show. So, you know, it's important to clarify.
S2: Yeah. Best of both worlds.
S1: Um, so this, uh, show first came out a couple
S1: of years ago. It's Tokyo Vice, uh, to brilliant, brilliant memoir, uh,
S1: by a American journalist called Jake Adelstein, uh, who moved
S1: to Japan when he was quite young and became the
S1: first Westerner to work at this big Tokyo newspaper and
S1: was a crime reporter embedded with the cops and investigated
S1: the Yakuza. Uh, he's played by Ansel Elgort. This show
S1: also stars Ken Watanabe. He's amazing. Japanese actor. The second season, uh,
S1: has just been released. I didn't watch the first season
S1: when it came out, and I'm kind of rewatching it
S1: to catch up. It's really good. Like Michael Mann was
S1: originally attached to this. I think he did direct the
S1: first episode, but then wandered off the project and it
S1: is shot beautifully. It looks great. Japan is an amazing
S1: location to to set a sort of gritty police journalist
S1: noir sort of story. I would strongly recommend this one.
S3: Yeah, I love that I watched the first season. I
S3: thought it was fantastic. The book is really good. The book.
S5: Is. I've read that book and I loved it.
S3: After you're done in Canberra, straight to the, uh, the
S3: foreign crime beat, correct? Um, but yes, I'm very much
S3: looking forward to the second season of that.
S1: Awesome. Well, we we really covered a lot on this episode.
S1: And thank you so much for indulging me. My Oscars, uh,
S1: electoral nerdery hopefully people found it interesting and the pubs
S1: and the clubs will be a chatter with people saying,
S1: did you know, did you know how the Oscars. It's
S1: the same way we vote for the Senate. Isn't that crazy?
S1: That's my contribution to discourse this this week in Australia.
S5: I'm just happy to get.
S2: My mandated one mention per product.
S1: Thanks, guys. Looking forward to debriefing on Monday night.
S3: See you Monday.
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Qi Wang.
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
S1: make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode
S1: with a friend. I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!