1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,200 S1: I'm Paul Circle and you're listening to Inside Politics from 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,760 S1: the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. In a special 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,480 S1: bonus episode today, we're joined by the nationals leader, David Littleproud. 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,440 S1: He's a man under pressure. Many commentators, Liberal MPs and 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,800 S1: even some of his own national colleagues blame January's coalition 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,160 S1: split on the 49 year old from Chinchilla in regional Queensland. 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,440 S1: Last year, Barnaby Joyce, a former nationals deputy prime minister, 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,360 S1: quit after Littleproud sent him to the backbench and he's 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,400 S1: now leading a populist revolt against the nationals with One Nation, 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,840 S1: with the dust settled on the coalition rupture. We talked 11 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,960 S1: a little proud about how the coalition has found itself 12 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:41,600 S1: here and what comes next under new leader Angus Taylor. David, 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:42,279 S1: thanks for joining us. 14 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,040 S2: Yeah, thanks for having me. I want to ask. 15 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:46,960 S1: About the National Party's identity in the modern era. It 16 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,680 S1: strikes me that there's two different versions of how the 17 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,959 S1: National Party, in through some of your language and some 18 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,280 S1: of your colleagues language is talked about. You said just 19 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,640 S1: before the last election to Troy Bramston and the Australian 20 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,090 S1: that we represent more nurses, more policemen, more teachers than 21 00:01:01,090 --> 00:01:04,010 S1: we do farmers. Our seats are now urbanized and we're 22 00:01:04,010 --> 00:01:07,370 S1: not the traditional elastic sided boot cockies coming to Canberra 23 00:01:07,370 --> 00:01:09,370 S1: just to support farmers. But if you listen to Bridget 24 00:01:09,370 --> 00:01:12,010 S1: McKenzie and others, they talk about your party being the 25 00:01:12,010 --> 00:01:16,490 S1: only truly conservative party, the Burkean conservatives. There's one nation 26 00:01:16,490 --> 00:01:18,730 S1: on the right. They're the Populist Party. Now, where does 27 00:01:18,730 --> 00:01:21,730 S1: the National Party sit in the political spectrum in the 28 00:01:21,730 --> 00:01:22,210 S1: modern era? 29 00:01:22,250 --> 00:01:25,170 S2: Well, we've evolved, and we were the Country Party. We 30 00:01:25,170 --> 00:01:30,170 S2: did basically come into existence to represent farmers and rural 31 00:01:30,170 --> 00:01:33,770 S2: and remote areas that were dominated by primary industries. But 32 00:01:33,770 --> 00:01:38,130 S2: our economies in regional Australia have evolved, and we've urbanized. 33 00:01:38,610 --> 00:01:42,050 S2: Many of the communities that we represent are the majority 34 00:01:42,050 --> 00:01:44,490 S2: of people live in urban towns. They're not farmers anymore. 35 00:01:44,530 --> 00:01:49,050 S2: We haven't walked away from our roots that agriculture is 36 00:01:49,050 --> 00:01:51,850 S2: the core of what has created the essence of the 37 00:01:51,850 --> 00:01:54,890 S2: National Party. But we've evolved as Australia's evolved and we've 38 00:01:54,890 --> 00:01:57,250 S2: evolved with it. And, you know, when you look at 39 00:01:57,250 --> 00:02:02,260 S2: our electorates. You look at we're representing some large regional cities. 40 00:02:03,140 --> 00:02:06,020 S2: I don't I've got smaller towns. The biggest town in 41 00:02:06,020 --> 00:02:10,300 S2: my electorate is 15,000 people in Warwick, but I represent 42 00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:14,220 S2: probably in the Southern Downs. More nurses, more doctors, more policemen, 43 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:18,660 S2: teachers than farmers. Because of how agriculture has evolved, agriculture 44 00:02:18,780 --> 00:02:22,179 S2: has has relied on economies of scale like everything else, 45 00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:26,020 S2: it's had to grow. And so there's fewer smaller family farms. 46 00:02:26,419 --> 00:02:28,540 S2: And what they do is they they grow in aggregation. 47 00:02:28,540 --> 00:02:31,780 S2: They get bigger. So there's fewer farmers, but bigger aggregations, 48 00:02:31,780 --> 00:02:34,459 S2: bigger land that they're managing. So there's not as many 49 00:02:34,460 --> 00:02:38,180 S2: farmers out there. And that's technology. And that's where our 50 00:02:38,180 --> 00:02:41,700 S2: societies have evolved. But we haven't lost the essence of 51 00:02:41,740 --> 00:02:43,660 S2: who we are, what we've come from. But we've evolved 52 00:02:43,660 --> 00:02:47,020 S2: with what are those aspirations of those people that do 53 00:02:47,020 --> 00:02:50,980 S2: have and live in urban areas, in making sure that 54 00:02:50,980 --> 00:02:53,500 S2: they get their fair share, that we stick to the 55 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:56,750 S2: values and principles of a conservative party, but we make 56 00:02:56,790 --> 00:02:59,070 S2: sure when we come here, we use our leverage within 57 00:02:59,070 --> 00:03:02,150 S2: a coalition to to fight and to get the policy 58 00:03:02,150 --> 00:03:06,310 S2: changes and to get the funding mechanisms that give us 59 00:03:06,310 --> 00:03:09,109 S2: the amenity of life that people in capital cities just 60 00:03:09,110 --> 00:03:10,750 S2: take for granted. That's what it is to be an 61 00:03:10,750 --> 00:03:12,230 S2: at in a modern day era. 62 00:03:12,270 --> 00:03:16,750 S1: How do you satisfy the a non-ideological nurse in your 63 00:03:16,790 --> 00:03:19,950 S1: seat at the same time as expressing the kinds of 64 00:03:19,950 --> 00:03:22,990 S1: sentiments and energy that the kind of Christian right, which 65 00:03:22,990 --> 00:03:27,030 S1: is an influential part of the National Party movement want 66 00:03:27,070 --> 00:03:28,230 S1: want to see you express in. 67 00:03:28,270 --> 00:03:30,829 S2: Well, I don't think they're exclusive. I mean, I think 68 00:03:30,870 --> 00:03:33,709 S2: you've got to say that the people that live in 69 00:03:33,710 --> 00:03:37,869 S2: cities and regional areas, they're not we're not different. We 70 00:03:37,870 --> 00:03:41,390 S2: just face different challenges and and therefore have different aspirations 71 00:03:41,390 --> 00:03:43,990 S2: about how we get to achieve what we're trying to to, 72 00:03:44,030 --> 00:03:46,630 S2: to get to for our families. And a nurse in 73 00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:49,990 S2: Warwick or in Roma or in Longreach has the same 74 00:03:50,030 --> 00:03:52,910 S2: aspirations in many respects as that in Sydney or Melbourne 75 00:03:52,910 --> 00:03:56,160 S2: or Brisbane, but has more challenges because of the tyranny 76 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,440 S2: of distance and and the scale of support that they get. 77 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,040 S2: And that's our job, is to fight for our fair share, 78 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,760 S2: to make sure that that nurse and her family can 79 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,680 S2: can have the amenity of life that you take for granted, 80 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,280 S2: but they can continue to be there and contribute to 81 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,360 S2: to these regional communities that contribute so much, not just 82 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,680 S2: in agriculture, but in resources and everything else we put 83 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,960 S2: in the economy. And it's so important to our national 84 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,120 S2: identity that they get their fair share and that they 85 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,200 S2: can they can have the comfort of knowing that as 86 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,680 S2: a as a family and as a parent, that you're 87 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,880 S2: going to provide that opportunity to your children. That's what I, 88 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,680 S2: as a father, look for. That's what got me into politics. 89 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,360 S2: What I got into politics was because I was Jackson. 90 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,120 S2: Generations of young people go over the Great Dividing Range 91 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,960 S2: to the capital cities because there wasn't the opportunity, there 92 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,440 S2: wasn't the future that they saw in regional Australia. It 93 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,320 S2: is time to bring them home and keep them home. 94 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,320 S2: And that's what the National's fight for that opportunity that 95 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,930 S2: people in cities take for granted, that we can have 96 00:04:53,930 --> 00:04:56,850 S2: to unlock our potential, unlock our potential not just for 97 00:04:56,850 --> 00:04:58,330 S2: our community, but for our country. 98 00:04:58,650 --> 00:05:01,330 S1: Well, that conservative zeal in your party, and arguably the 99 00:05:01,330 --> 00:05:04,450 S1: pressure from One Nation, was what led you to split 100 00:05:04,450 --> 00:05:08,170 S1: the coalition last month on the grounds that Labor's post 101 00:05:08,170 --> 00:05:11,330 S1: Bondi hate groups laws could have impinged on free speech. 102 00:05:11,730 --> 00:05:14,609 S1: Dennis Shanahan, a doyen of the gallery, called it, quote, 103 00:05:14,610 --> 00:05:17,210 S1: one of the all time greatest acts of political bastardry 104 00:05:17,210 --> 00:05:20,370 S1: by you. Self-inflicted damage and stupidity. In pulling out of 105 00:05:20,370 --> 00:05:23,330 S1: the coalition, my colleague James Massola questioned whether you were 106 00:05:23,330 --> 00:05:25,290 S1: the worst nationals leader of all time as a result 107 00:05:25,290 --> 00:05:27,770 S1: of that decision. Do you have you haven't expressed any 108 00:05:27,770 --> 00:05:29,729 S1: regret as far as I'm concerned. Do you have any regrets? 109 00:05:29,850 --> 00:05:31,810 S2: There was no there was a malicious act. It wasn't 110 00:05:31,810 --> 00:05:35,250 S2: a malicious act at all. But you would understand the 111 00:05:35,250 --> 00:05:38,290 S2: coalition is two parties. It's not one party. And with 112 00:05:38,290 --> 00:05:42,010 S2: all due respect, the good people of Longreach and Roma 113 00:05:42,210 --> 00:05:45,929 S2: don't read James Massola. They don't read Dennis Shanahan wouldn't 114 00:05:45,930 --> 00:05:47,529 S2: have a rat's idea who they are. 115 00:05:47,610 --> 00:05:49,409 S1: Don't you think they're wrong? Do you actually think those 116 00:05:49,410 --> 00:05:51,540 S1: guys were without merit in making those claims. 117 00:05:51,740 --> 00:05:54,700 S2: Well, because that's a view from here. There is this 118 00:05:54,700 --> 00:05:58,020 S2: cultural mindset in this place, in the gallery that the 119 00:05:58,020 --> 00:06:00,260 S2: National Party should just be subservient and that we should 120 00:06:00,260 --> 00:06:02,740 S2: just get a few trinkets. And, you know. 121 00:06:02,740 --> 00:06:04,300 S1: You've got a lot of trinkets over the last few years. 122 00:06:04,339 --> 00:06:06,820 S2: Well, that's because I've stood for something. I'm the one 123 00:06:06,820 --> 00:06:10,980 S2: National Party leader that has actually stood up and said, 124 00:06:11,339 --> 00:06:15,820 S2: in terms of nuclear energy divestiture, the voice net zero. 125 00:06:16,540 --> 00:06:19,420 S2: And in terms of the hate speech, I'm not one 126 00:06:19,420 --> 00:06:23,180 S2: that goes down the rabbit holes of of of conspiracy theories, 127 00:06:23,180 --> 00:06:26,100 S2: but I have personally also had a real issue with that. 128 00:06:26,140 --> 00:06:29,180 S2: If we had had a prescriptive bill, a prescriptive bill 129 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:32,580 S2: that just named Who's About to hear and the neo-Nazis. 130 00:06:32,740 --> 00:06:35,260 S2: I was all in. But this went further in the 131 00:06:35,260 --> 00:06:38,179 S2: objects of the bill to to go into psychological harm 132 00:06:38,180 --> 00:06:41,260 S2: it could cause or social, economic. And the fact that 133 00:06:41,260 --> 00:06:44,620 S2: the National Party was not afforded was not afforded the 134 00:06:44,620 --> 00:06:47,620 S2: opportunity to debate that in the forums of the coalition. 135 00:06:47,620 --> 00:06:49,780 S2: It wasn't the it was the coalition wasn't broken by 136 00:06:49,779 --> 00:06:52,110 S2: the National Party or me individually. I don't make those 137 00:06:52,110 --> 00:06:55,190 S2: decisions individually. The party room makes those decisions as a collective. 138 00:06:55,510 --> 00:06:58,430 S2: But when we weren't afforded that opportunity, we don't come 139 00:06:58,430 --> 00:07:00,309 S2: down here just to roll over as what the gallery 140 00:07:00,350 --> 00:07:02,349 S2: thinks we should do, and we should just be subservient 141 00:07:02,350 --> 00:07:05,310 S2: and be good, good boys and girls in the coalition 142 00:07:05,310 --> 00:07:07,669 S2: party room. We stand for something. And I think the 143 00:07:07,670 --> 00:07:10,190 S2: political discourse that you're seeing at the moment is that 144 00:07:10,190 --> 00:07:12,150 S2: the Australian people want you to stand for something. So 145 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:14,470 S2: when I walk back into the streets of Warwick or 146 00:07:14,470 --> 00:07:17,870 S2: Kingaroy or in Goondiwindi, you know what they said to me? 147 00:07:17,870 --> 00:07:20,830 S2: They weren't reading James Mitchell, they weren't reading Dennis Shanahan. 148 00:07:20,830 --> 00:07:23,310 S2: They said, good on you because you've actually shown you 149 00:07:23,310 --> 00:07:25,390 S2: stand for something and we want to send you down 150 00:07:25,390 --> 00:07:27,750 S2: there to do what we expect you to do. And 151 00:07:27,750 --> 00:07:30,590 S2: in that moment, in your moment, you have the courage 152 00:07:30,590 --> 00:07:34,110 S2: to stand up for what you believe in. And as 153 00:07:34,350 --> 00:07:36,190 S2: traumatic as what it was, it didn't have to get 154 00:07:36,190 --> 00:07:39,630 S2: to that. But unfortunately, Susan took it to that extent 155 00:07:39,630 --> 00:07:43,350 S2: when she sacked us. The reality was she knew very 156 00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:45,750 S2: well that if she sacked us, we were gone. Made 157 00:07:45,750 --> 00:07:47,950 S2: that explicitly clear verbally and in writing. 158 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,800 S1: Your shadow ministers all offered their resignation. One of them, 159 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,600 S1: in her resignation letter, Bridget McKenzie or Senate Leader, said 160 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,160 S1: that they acknowledged they had breached shadow cabinet solidarity. You 161 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,160 S1: subsequently said that there were there were flaws in the process. 162 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,280 S1: There was no joint party room and there were amendments 163 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,800 S1: to the bill, which meant the shadow cabinet decision on 164 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,320 S1: the Sunday night was not was not valid. Why did 165 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,440 S1: she tender her resignation? Was that just all post post 166 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,800 S1: hoc rationalization by you? Because the situation you put the party. 167 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,760 S2: In, it was out of respect. It was out of 168 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,520 S2: respect to Susan that we'd argued from the start, from 169 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,640 S2: the Sunday, there was no bill put in front of 170 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,880 S2: us on the Sunday night in shadow Cabinet. The bill 171 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,000 S2: came to us at 6:13 a.m. on the Tuesday. 172 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:30,880 S1: Principles, which were express in the bill. 173 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,920 S2: But hold on. What party and what party would sign 174 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:36,960 S2: up to a bill they haven't seen from a from 175 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,120 S2: a labor prime minister, either a Liberal or National Party leader? 176 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,520 S2: With all due respect, let's take away the hyperbole of 177 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,200 S2: this place and look at this rationally and through the 178 00:08:46,290 --> 00:08:49,810 S2: specter of what the processes that have been agreed for 179 00:08:49,809 --> 00:08:52,770 S2: over 100 years in the coalition, and the bill was 180 00:08:52,770 --> 00:08:55,490 S2: not presented to us till 6:13 a.m. on the Tuesday morning. 181 00:08:55,490 --> 00:08:59,010 S2: We were expected to vote on it by lunchtime that day, 182 00:08:59,490 --> 00:09:02,970 S2: when amendments to that bill were being handed to us. 183 00:09:03,010 --> 00:09:04,810 S2: As it was being introduced into the House, there was 184 00:09:04,809 --> 00:09:07,450 S2: no shadow cabinet to have a look over that bill. 185 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:10,610 S2: There was no leadership meeting over that bill, and there 186 00:09:10,610 --> 00:09:13,050 S2: was no joint party room over that bill. So with 187 00:09:13,050 --> 00:09:15,530 S2: with respect, there was no forum that we were afforded 188 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:19,330 S2: the opportunity to to vote against. Now, Susan disagreed. She 189 00:09:19,330 --> 00:09:22,929 S2: believed passionately that that there was a breach of shadow 190 00:09:22,929 --> 00:09:25,010 S2: cabinet solidarity. If we did, if we didn't vote for 191 00:09:25,010 --> 00:09:27,329 S2: this bill made it very clear we didn't. And out 192 00:09:27,330 --> 00:09:30,530 S2: of respect to her. And when we got to our position, 193 00:09:30,770 --> 00:09:32,730 S2: she asked us not to vote in the House of 194 00:09:33,090 --> 00:09:38,530 S2: Representatives because we hadn't undertaken our amendments. And that out 195 00:09:38,530 --> 00:09:40,770 S2: of respect to her, we said we haven't changed our position, 196 00:09:40,770 --> 00:09:43,810 S2: we haven't breached any cabinet solidarity. We'll put our amendments 197 00:09:43,809 --> 00:09:45,780 S2: in the Senate. When they come back, we will be 198 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:48,380 S2: voting against it as well in the house. Uh, she 199 00:09:48,380 --> 00:09:50,380 S2: had that strong belief, but I made it very clear 200 00:09:50,380 --> 00:09:53,020 S2: when the three I sent three letters of those those 201 00:09:53,340 --> 00:09:56,460 S2: those shadow ministers out of respect to her and the coalition. 202 00:09:56,780 --> 00:09:59,460 S2: The fourth letter that accompanied that was from me and 203 00:09:59,460 --> 00:10:02,220 S2: the party room that the party room instructed me to send, 204 00:10:02,260 --> 00:10:06,220 S2: to make it explicitly clear that if she accepted those resignations, 205 00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:08,540 S2: she is sacking us, and she would be sacking us 206 00:10:08,540 --> 00:10:10,900 S2: all because we were all made that position of where 207 00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:13,780 S2: the National Party position and we weren't afforded, we weren't 208 00:10:13,780 --> 00:10:14,780 S2: afforded due process. 209 00:10:14,940 --> 00:10:17,180 S1: There's no doubt the Prime Minister's timelines and all this 210 00:10:17,420 --> 00:10:19,579 S1: forced a lot of this, and there's a question about 211 00:10:19,580 --> 00:10:21,620 S1: his intent and all that, and that's for him to answer. 212 00:10:21,620 --> 00:10:24,380 S1: But why didn't you abstain in the Senate to avoid 213 00:10:24,380 --> 00:10:26,620 S1: breaching shadow cabinet solidarity? Is that not a sign that 214 00:10:26,620 --> 00:10:29,100 S1: you actually wanted to precipitate this crisis? 215 00:10:29,140 --> 00:10:31,179 S2: Well, you've made the you've made the presumption that we 216 00:10:31,220 --> 00:10:32,980 S2: breached shadow cabinet solidarity. 217 00:10:33,020 --> 00:10:34,020 S1: Your ministers acknowledged. 218 00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:36,460 S2: That. No, they did that out of respect to Susan 219 00:10:36,460 --> 00:10:37,180 S2: and the promise. 220 00:10:37,179 --> 00:10:37,900 S1: That they made that. 221 00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:40,740 S2: Up. No, out of respect to her and the position 222 00:10:40,740 --> 00:10:43,870 S2: she had, we didn't agree with that position. Um, and 223 00:10:43,870 --> 00:10:47,310 S2: so this is we've acted with utmost integrity all the 224 00:10:47,309 --> 00:10:49,429 S2: way through this. And I know there's been a lot 225 00:10:49,429 --> 00:10:52,350 S2: of backgrounding by a lot of the liberals about what happened. 226 00:10:52,510 --> 00:10:54,230 S1: You're seeing your nationals colleagues do. 227 00:10:54,270 --> 00:10:57,310 S2: Well and saying exactly how it is. The reality is 228 00:10:57,309 --> 00:11:00,350 S2: this we didn't agree with the premise that we had 229 00:11:00,390 --> 00:11:03,950 S2: breached any cabinet solidarity because that bill didn't go to 230 00:11:04,309 --> 00:11:07,990 S2: shadow cabinet. There is no party leader on the conservative 231 00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:09,670 S2: side that would ever agree to a bill from a 232 00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:13,150 S2: labor prime minister without seeing it. I mean, that's absurd 233 00:11:13,150 --> 00:11:15,390 S2: to think that anyone would go down that path. So 234 00:11:15,390 --> 00:11:17,870 S2: we acted with integrity all the way through, and we 235 00:11:17,870 --> 00:11:20,790 S2: made it very clear that there was no malice in this. 236 00:11:20,990 --> 00:11:24,270 S2: But when you're talking about something as serious as freedom 237 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:26,350 S2: of speech, when there was an opportunity, I think there 238 00:11:26,350 --> 00:11:28,990 S2: was a clear opportunity. And we expressed that. Why haven't 239 00:11:28,990 --> 00:11:31,550 S2: we just been prescriptive and we did it. 240 00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:33,949 S1: With who were you just on? Sorry to interrupt, Natalie 241 00:11:33,950 --> 00:11:38,030 S1: into your concerns about that, Bill. What could the unintended 242 00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:41,630 S1: consequences been here? Which groups were you worried that these 243 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,120 S1: hate groups laws which could effectively just shut down a 244 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,760 S1: group and prosecute people for being part of them. Which 245 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,400 S1: groups were you worried that it could capture? 246 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,200 S2: Well, it's not just the groups now, it's in the future. 247 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,200 S2: This is the difficulty in that you, if you have 248 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,400 S2: far reaching laws and society continues to move, that it 249 00:11:58,400 --> 00:11:59,360 S2: can have an unintended. 250 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:00,480 S1: A hypothetical concern. 251 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,840 S2: Definitely. And we've seen that society shifts and it's shifted. 252 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,480 S2: It's shifted over the last decade and a decade before that. 253 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,000 S2: What you've got to do is make sure and I 254 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,240 S2: think there's a precedent that this Parliament demonstrated less than 255 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,480 S2: 12 months ago when the Nazi symbols, we all were 256 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,240 S2: very prescriptive about that. We went in and said, yes, 257 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,840 S2: they shouldn't be used in terms of the of the 258 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,640 S2: original intent that they were created in the 1930s. And 259 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,960 S2: 40s shouldn't be used on the streets. That was a 260 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,280 S2: no brainer. In fact, the states do this all the time. 261 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,560 S2: States did this with bikie gangs, the bikie colours. Why 262 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,959 S2: wouldn't we be prescriptive around that so that we as 263 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,240 S2: legislators and this is the thing is, despite what the 264 00:12:40,330 --> 00:12:43,170 S2: gallery thinks, it's not all about politics. It's about doing 265 00:12:43,170 --> 00:12:45,090 S2: the right thing, coming down here with the values and 266 00:12:45,090 --> 00:12:47,490 S2: principles and standing up and saying, you know what? This 267 00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:49,570 S2: is an overreach, and I have real concerns, and I'm 268 00:12:49,570 --> 00:12:52,370 S2: not one that wears the tinfoil hat, but I could 269 00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:54,170 S2: see that this was an overreach, that we didn't. 270 00:12:54,210 --> 00:12:55,970 S1: You didn't say that in the shadow cabinet meeting, though. 271 00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:58,010 S2: Well, with due respect, how would you know what I 272 00:12:58,010 --> 00:12:59,090 S2: said in the joint party room? 273 00:12:59,290 --> 00:13:00,570 S1: Because I spoke to all my colleagues about it. 274 00:13:00,610 --> 00:13:03,370 S2: Yeah, well, with all due respect, I know what I said, 275 00:13:03,410 --> 00:13:05,090 S2: and I know what my colleagues, if you read Darren 276 00:13:05,090 --> 00:13:08,530 S2: Chester's letter of resignation, you see very much what was said. 277 00:13:08,570 --> 00:13:10,329 S2: And I know what I stand for. I'm not going 278 00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:12,010 S2: to run around and say what was said. And I 279 00:13:12,010 --> 00:13:13,689 S2: think that's a more a reflection on the people that 280 00:13:13,690 --> 00:13:17,410 S2: come and tell you people what they say, because they 281 00:13:17,410 --> 00:13:20,329 S2: come with a motive and an intent to try and 282 00:13:20,330 --> 00:13:21,170 S2: cover a position. 283 00:13:21,210 --> 00:13:22,609 S1: Do you never background journalists? 284 00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:25,850 S2: No, not on shadow cabinet? Definitely not. Why would I 285 00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:28,690 S2: go and say what I said in shadow cabinet or 286 00:13:28,690 --> 00:13:31,810 S2: the party room? I respect the processes and that's why 287 00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:35,170 S2: we acted with integrity when that process wasn't reciprocated to 288 00:13:35,170 --> 00:13:38,010 S2: us and was made very clear in that letter that 289 00:13:38,010 --> 00:13:41,300 S2: if you accepted those three, then you sack us all. 290 00:13:41,940 --> 00:13:44,219 S2: And you know I don't resign from that. It's not 291 00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:47,739 S2: something I enjoyed. But you've got to stand for something 292 00:13:48,020 --> 00:13:51,660 S2: in this place. And we aren't a faction of the 293 00:13:51,660 --> 00:13:56,859 S2: Liberal Party. And that's what this cultural mindset that has 294 00:13:56,860 --> 00:14:00,260 S2: come across the gallery here, of these commentators that want 295 00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:02,980 S2: to look down at the National Party and think that 296 00:14:02,980 --> 00:14:06,140 S2: we're just some bunch of hicks. Um, look at look 297 00:14:06,179 --> 00:14:08,140 S2: at the policies that are on the books at the 298 00:14:08,140 --> 00:14:09,700 S2: moment for the coalition. 299 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:11,060 S1: You've led the agenda on a lot of them. I 300 00:14:11,059 --> 00:14:13,340 S1: don't accept that's the gallery's perception. And in fact, the 301 00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:14,740 S1: National Party's, you know. 302 00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:15,260 S2: Well, when you look. 303 00:14:15,260 --> 00:14:15,780 S1: At commentary. 304 00:14:15,860 --> 00:14:16,740 S2: When you look at commentary. 305 00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:18,620 S1: Well, they weren't they weren't talking about your right to 306 00:14:18,660 --> 00:14:21,580 S1: not differentiate. That's not what they were on about. But anyway, um, no. 307 00:14:21,580 --> 00:14:23,620 S2: But no, but they don't appreciate the fact that in 308 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:26,340 S2: our moment, when we stand up and we show the 309 00:14:26,340 --> 00:14:29,420 S2: courage that the Australian people send us here to show 310 00:14:29,620 --> 00:14:31,780 S2: that we should do it, because there's a consequence on 311 00:14:31,780 --> 00:14:33,940 S2: the other side that we should just we should just 312 00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:36,980 S2: roll over, because in the, in the benefit of the coalition, 313 00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:39,790 S2: We shouldn't we shouldn't have that courage in that moment. 314 00:14:39,790 --> 00:14:42,670 S2: That's the problem. And that's what gets people that we 315 00:14:42,670 --> 00:14:47,229 S2: represent back up about a bubble in Canberra, not understanding 316 00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:48,830 S2: what it means when you walk back. And I looked 317 00:14:48,830 --> 00:14:50,750 S2: at people in the eye when I walk back to 318 00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:53,030 S2: my electorate, they all looked at me and said, good 319 00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:53,750 S2: on you, brother. 320 00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:57,510 S1: Interesting. Uh, you and certainly didn't see eye to eye. 321 00:14:57,550 --> 00:14:59,430 S1: I don't want to. I don't want to delve into the, 322 00:14:59,470 --> 00:15:02,310 S1: you know, years of contest between you and her, but 323 00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:06,470 S1: it's notorious in the coalition that you guys were didn't 324 00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:09,230 S1: have the best working relationship. You know, there's one argument 325 00:15:09,350 --> 00:15:11,590 S1: on your side that she had quite an insular office 326 00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:14,710 S1: that was difficult to deal with, that she didn't consult that. 327 00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:17,110 S1: She actually was a contributor to this. There's another school 328 00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:18,990 S1: of thought that you were very harsh to her, that 329 00:15:18,990 --> 00:15:22,230 S1: you split the coalition, uh, the first time when she 330 00:15:22,230 --> 00:15:25,070 S1: was dealing with her mother's death, uh, that you as 331 00:15:25,070 --> 00:15:27,390 S1: a National Party person, was always offended by her winning 332 00:15:27,430 --> 00:15:30,190 S1: far off the National Party. She. She told you. 333 00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:30,790 S2: I wasn't around. 334 00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:32,710 S1: Then? Yeah, you weren't around. But there's a long, long, 335 00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:33,270 S1: long lasting. 336 00:15:33,270 --> 00:15:34,190 S2: Only just alive. Probably. 337 00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:36,080 S1: You're just alive. Yeah. Yeah. No, she's, um. She's been 338 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,520 S1: around for a while. Um, in one of the tourist 339 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,600 S1: phone calls that you had with her during this split, 340 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,680 S1: I understand she effectively said to you, and I know 341 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,600 S1: you won't go into the details. She effectively said you're 342 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,000 S1: not a real leader. Matt Canavan really leads your party. 343 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,840 S1: Did you ever consider, uh, stepping down during this process? 344 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,640 S1: And how did you go with Susan Lee in that period? 345 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,160 S1: Were you were you were you trying to blow her up? 346 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,720 S2: No. And and I don't accept the premise on her 347 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,120 S2: office or either we could work professionally with them. We've 348 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,320 S2: had a very professional relationship with them. Uh, and I 349 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,400 S2: don't accept the premise that we blew the coalition up 350 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,720 S2: after the election. Again, coalition convention for over 100 years 351 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,720 S2: is that after an election, all policies are maintained, all 352 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,520 S2: policies are kept and are removed by exception. Susan wanted 353 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,880 S2: to remove them all made it very clear there was 354 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,360 S2: four hard fought policies that the nationals had fought for 355 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,120 S2: for a long time divestiture, nuclear power, uh, universal service 356 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,840 S2: obligation reforms so that mobile phones might work in our 357 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,290 S2: part of the world and the regional Australia Future Fund, 358 00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:37,410 S2: so that we can train our own doctors and have 359 00:16:37,410 --> 00:16:40,970 S2: some childcare centres. And we made it very clear, I 360 00:16:41,490 --> 00:16:43,330 S2: accept the fact you might want to get rid of 361 00:16:43,450 --> 00:16:45,890 S2: the rest of them, but these we're not going to. Um, 362 00:16:45,970 --> 00:16:48,490 S2: and so she broke the convention. Not not the National 363 00:16:48,490 --> 00:16:50,930 S2: Party and the National Party. Party room, not me gets 364 00:16:50,930 --> 00:16:53,450 S2: to this position. I supported our position to say that 365 00:16:53,650 --> 00:16:55,410 S2: until we got what we were looking for. And I'm 366 00:16:55,410 --> 00:16:57,770 S2: glad the Liberal Party got to a position where they 367 00:16:57,770 --> 00:17:00,450 S2: accepted our terms, because that laid the foundation stones for 368 00:17:00,450 --> 00:17:03,930 S2: us to reform net zero. And look, in terms of 369 00:17:04,530 --> 00:17:06,689 S2: Susan's mother's death, we made it very clear from the 370 00:17:06,690 --> 00:17:10,010 S2: start that we'd work at her pace of what she 371 00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:13,730 S2: was comfortable with, and we're very respectful around that. So 372 00:17:13,970 --> 00:17:17,090 S2: we had a professional working relationship and I know there's 373 00:17:17,130 --> 00:17:19,889 S2: a gossip. And he said she said what? But the 374 00:17:19,890 --> 00:17:25,250 S2: reality was we work professionally and we got back twice 375 00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:29,649 S2: together because and Susan's credit, she came back to us twice, uh, 376 00:17:29,690 --> 00:17:31,970 S2: wanting to get the coalition back together. We wanted the 377 00:17:31,970 --> 00:17:34,660 S2: of the coalition together, but not at any cost, not 378 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:37,140 S2: at the people we represents. Cost. Um. 379 00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:39,540 S1: And what do you want out of this? How's the 380 00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:41,660 S1: National Party? Want out of this? What's the benefit? 381 00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:45,340 S2: Well, we've now got policy that means so much to us. 382 00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:46,020 S1: Which policy? 383 00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:47,900 S2: Well, have you ever been? 384 00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:49,900 S1: No, no, no, I'm talking about the most recent split. 385 00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:55,540 S2: Well, it insured those, but it meant that we were 386 00:17:55,540 --> 00:17:58,940 S2: able to to come back to coalition when we were mistreated. 387 00:17:59,619 --> 00:18:03,060 S2: We left because we were sacked. We were sacked because 388 00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:05,300 S2: we took a principled stand and we weren't afforded the 389 00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:10,060 S2: opportunity to to vote on a bill that wasn't debated 390 00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:13,020 S2: through the proper process now. So are you saying we 391 00:18:13,020 --> 00:18:15,619 S2: should just roll over and just let that one go 392 00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:17,780 S2: when it meant something to our party room? We didn't 393 00:18:17,780 --> 00:18:20,859 S2: make this decision lightly. Our party room. It was a 394 00:18:20,859 --> 00:18:23,540 S2: difficult position to get to because our party room knew 395 00:18:23,540 --> 00:18:27,900 S2: the consequence that, uh, if if Susan continued to see 396 00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:30,379 S2: this as a, as a breach of cabinet solidarity, that 397 00:18:30,380 --> 00:18:32,510 S2: there were consequences. We all knew the party room went 398 00:18:32,510 --> 00:18:35,030 S2: through that, and it was a very detailed conversation that 399 00:18:35,030 --> 00:18:36,350 S2: we went through. And I'm proud of the way that 400 00:18:36,350 --> 00:18:40,070 S2: our our guys went through it, but we couldn't walk 401 00:18:40,109 --> 00:18:44,350 S2: past it. So, I mean, this is the thing it 402 00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:48,190 S2: meant it meant something to us that we stood for this, 403 00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:51,470 S2: for this principle. And while many. 404 00:18:51,470 --> 00:18:52,510 S1: Come in principle. 405 00:18:53,070 --> 00:18:55,189 S2: To the values of what we've been sent here for, 406 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:57,950 S2: like there's plenty of people that come here and just go, 407 00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:59,750 S2: you know what? For expedience, I'm just going to roll 408 00:18:59,750 --> 00:19:01,230 S2: over and let that go. And I've got to say, 409 00:19:01,230 --> 00:19:04,470 S2: there's some things that we let go through the joint 410 00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:06,950 S2: party room that are very important to the Liberal Party, 411 00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:08,350 S2: and I've got to say, they do it for us 412 00:19:08,350 --> 00:19:08,670 S2: as well. 413 00:19:08,670 --> 00:19:09,590 S1: They do it for you a lot. 414 00:19:09,630 --> 00:19:11,590 S2: Yeah, well, I wouldn't say. 415 00:19:11,630 --> 00:19:14,510 S1: I wouldn't say they've voted for the gun. Uh, they 416 00:19:14,510 --> 00:19:16,870 S1: vote against the gun gun back for you guys. And 417 00:19:16,869 --> 00:19:21,350 S1: I mean the labor hate the hate group legislation. Usually 418 00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:23,869 S1: when you guys differentiate the National Party, it's because it's 419 00:19:24,310 --> 00:19:27,030 S1: on an issue, particularly of interest to a rural and 420 00:19:27,030 --> 00:19:29,150 S1: regional voters. This this bill was not. 421 00:19:29,210 --> 00:19:30,210 S2: So how do you know that? 422 00:19:30,250 --> 00:19:32,050 S1: Well, because there's no. When's the last time? 423 00:19:32,450 --> 00:19:34,050 S2: When's the last time you lived in a can? 424 00:19:34,050 --> 00:19:37,490 S1: Appreciate. It doesn't differentiate regional and metro. It's got no, uh, 425 00:19:37,490 --> 00:19:40,490 S1: no increase bearing on one group or the other. It 426 00:19:40,490 --> 00:19:42,210 S1: was around prohibiting hate groups, but. 427 00:19:42,210 --> 00:19:44,730 S2: But it was about the principle of overreach, of freedom 428 00:19:44,730 --> 00:19:46,570 S2: of speech. That's just as important to someone living in 429 00:19:46,570 --> 00:19:48,250 S2: Chinchilla as it is here in Canberra. 430 00:19:48,290 --> 00:19:48,929 S1: Exactly. That's my. 431 00:19:48,930 --> 00:19:51,770 S2: Point. So? So why wouldn't we stand for that? There are. 432 00:19:51,810 --> 00:19:53,570 S2: So this is what you've got to understand. The National Party. Yes, 433 00:19:53,570 --> 00:19:57,370 S2: there are very, very more broader principles that we believe 434 00:19:57,369 --> 00:20:00,250 S2: in and and are passionate about and will stand up for. 435 00:20:00,850 --> 00:20:03,290 S2: There are more localised issues that I talked about at 436 00:20:03,290 --> 00:20:05,770 S2: the start with about getting our fair share and making 437 00:20:05,770 --> 00:20:09,010 S2: sure that that aspiration and challenge is addressed for those 438 00:20:09,010 --> 00:20:13,050 S2: people that live out there. So to sit here and say, no, 439 00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:16,330 S2: there's no differentiation. It is that's and it's important to 440 00:20:16,330 --> 00:20:18,970 S2: people in the capital cities about their freedom of speech. Yeah. 441 00:20:19,290 --> 00:20:22,729 S2: And this is where we're the same in. And we 442 00:20:22,730 --> 00:20:25,730 S2: shouldn't have this big differentiation between country and city, because 443 00:20:25,770 --> 00:20:27,609 S2: much of our values and principles are the same, the 444 00:20:27,609 --> 00:20:29,660 S2: Assign the values we should stand up for. But when 445 00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:32,300 S2: we need that bit extra to make that amenity of 446 00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:37,100 S2: life for us, that that little bit more livable, we'll 447 00:20:37,100 --> 00:20:37,700 S2: go and fight. 448 00:20:37,740 --> 00:20:40,020 S1: We spent way too much time on the coalition split. 449 00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:43,180 S1: It's my fault. So let's go on to some other issues. 450 00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:46,260 S1: If there's a person who embodied that old school version 451 00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:48,980 S1: of the nationals that we talked about before with Barnaby Joyce, 452 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:53,260 S1: he blames you for leaving the National Party. I've no 453 00:20:53,260 --> 00:20:56,379 S1: doubt that's self-serving to some extent on his part. Uh, 454 00:20:56,380 --> 00:20:59,580 S1: but no matter who's to blame, the most recent Redbridge 455 00:20:59,580 --> 00:21:03,340 S1: poll this week has the One Nation party at 39% 456 00:21:03,340 --> 00:21:05,980 S1: in the regions, the coalition of 20. A recent poll 457 00:21:05,980 --> 00:21:09,820 S1: has the National Party vote nationally across the whole country 2.5% 458 00:21:10,540 --> 00:21:11,620 S1: this is a disaster. No? 459 00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:14,300 S2: Well, just just be careful. On the National Party vote. 460 00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:15,260 S2: At 2.5%. 461 00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:16,420 S1: You only run in certain seats. 462 00:21:16,420 --> 00:21:18,939 S2: Well, I think this is this is where everyone in 463 00:21:18,940 --> 00:21:20,820 S2: this place needs to cool their jets a little bit. 464 00:21:20,859 --> 00:21:25,700 S2: We can test effectively 20, 22, 23 seats. We win 465 00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:28,670 S2: 15 to 17 of them. I think that's a pretty 466 00:21:28,670 --> 00:21:30,790 S2: good win loss ratio compared to any other player. We 467 00:21:30,790 --> 00:21:33,070 S2: don't run in the seats with the Liberal Party are. 468 00:21:33,109 --> 00:21:37,430 S2: So for those to make commentary about National Party national vote, 469 00:21:37,470 --> 00:21:39,830 S2: when we don't run in the vast majority of seats 470 00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:42,110 S2: of the 151 seats, we're not we're not in there 471 00:21:42,150 --> 00:21:45,190 S2: probably 125 of them. Fair enough. Take a deep breath. 472 00:21:45,230 --> 00:21:48,389 S2: Fair enough. So I think what the national polls show 473 00:21:48,670 --> 00:21:50,910 S2: is no one likes any of us. Not one nation. 474 00:21:50,910 --> 00:21:53,270 S2: They don't like Labour. They don't like us. You know what? 475 00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:57,190 S2: They're angry because they're poor. And that poses an opportunity. 476 00:21:57,190 --> 00:22:00,189 S2: And that's where I think the opportunity for us is. 477 00:22:00,230 --> 00:22:04,990 S2: And I think Angus has hit the ground running in defining, 478 00:22:04,990 --> 00:22:09,709 S2: redefining those values and principles of the coalition, restoring our 479 00:22:09,710 --> 00:22:12,910 S2: standard of living, protecting our way of life because people 480 00:22:12,910 --> 00:22:16,510 S2: feel poorer and they don't feel safe. And that's about 481 00:22:16,510 --> 00:22:20,470 S2: making sure we have a proper migration policy, that one 482 00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:22,989 S2: that we've seen already that has been too high and 483 00:22:23,030 --> 00:22:25,520 S2: had to lower standards, that hasn't gone to address the 484 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,040 S2: problems of giving hope to young people about our own home. 485 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,040 S2: Why wouldn't we? When we're given the greatest gift we're 486 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,760 S2: giving to any person on this planet a ticket here? 487 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:38,360 S2: Why wouldn't over the last four years we prioritise, you know, builders, plumbers, electricians, tilers, roofers. 488 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:38,840 S1: We'll get to. 489 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,639 S2: The dog instead of dog groomers and martial arts instructor. 490 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,800 S2: So the reality is, is, um, you know, I think 491 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,080 S2: the polls show that there's an opportunity. There's a lot 492 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,399 S2: of work for us to do. You can't be ignorant 493 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,640 S2: to that. But I think there's an opportunity for for this, 494 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,400 S2: for those that are here to stand for something, to 495 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,120 S2: show that what they believe in to the constituent they 496 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,320 S2: stand for. And that's what I'm proud of. For the 497 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,320 S2: nearly four years I've been leader of the National Party. 498 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,400 S2: Whereas The voice all the way through the National Party 499 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,959 S2: I've led stood for something, and we've changed coalition policy 500 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,760 S2: for the better. Um, that that is what my party 501 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,800 S2: room as a collective has achieved in four years. More 502 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,160 S2: probably since, uh, since McEwen. And that's because we've had 503 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,210 S2: the courage and strength of our conviction in those moments 504 00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:23,730 S2: to stand up. 505 00:23:23,730 --> 00:23:26,090 S1: Did you make the wrong call? Letting Barnaby go and 506 00:23:26,090 --> 00:23:28,449 S1: not managing that relationship even though he was troublesome on 507 00:23:28,450 --> 00:23:30,090 S1: the backbench. Did you make the wrong call not keeping 508 00:23:30,090 --> 00:23:30,570 S1: him in the tent? 509 00:23:30,609 --> 00:23:32,890 S2: No. That was a decision for Barnaby to leave. 510 00:23:32,930 --> 00:23:33,570 S1: You couldn't influence. 511 00:23:33,570 --> 00:23:36,770 S2: Him. Well, we've made it very clear he had a 512 00:23:36,770 --> 00:23:40,090 S2: role to play. Um, but, you know, Barnaby is a 513 00:23:40,090 --> 00:23:43,490 S2: grown adult. He made that decision after what the National 514 00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:45,489 S2: Party had provided him. He still had a role to play. 515 00:23:45,530 --> 00:23:47,330 S2: We made it very clear to him. But because I 516 00:23:47,330 --> 00:23:49,690 S2: think he rationalised in his head that the party room 517 00:23:49,690 --> 00:23:52,090 S2: would never vote for him again to be leader, that 518 00:23:52,130 --> 00:23:54,330 S2: he decided to leave, and that was a decision for him. 519 00:23:54,330 --> 00:23:57,890 S2: It's disappointing. We're saddened by it, particularly when you think 520 00:23:57,890 --> 00:24:00,170 S2: of what the party has provided him. 521 00:24:00,890 --> 00:24:02,649 S1: I want ego, relevance, deprivation. 522 00:24:03,290 --> 00:24:05,609 S2: I want to be judged when I leave the leadership 523 00:24:05,609 --> 00:24:08,490 S2: in what I can, how I how I conduct myself 524 00:24:08,490 --> 00:24:10,250 S2: and what I give back to this great party, this 525 00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:14,450 S2: great movement of regional Australia that has given me everything. 526 00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:18,010 S2: And I think you should be judged when you're gone 527 00:24:18,210 --> 00:24:21,820 S2: or you sent rather than in that moment, because that's 528 00:24:21,820 --> 00:24:25,460 S2: when you see the true the true leadership is, is 529 00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:28,420 S2: whether that whether that movement that's giving you everything, whether 530 00:24:28,420 --> 00:24:30,820 S2: you're prepared to stand by it through thick and thin and, 531 00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:32,899 S2: you know, I'm going to bleed green and gold until 532 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:33,420 S2: I die. 533 00:24:33,460 --> 00:24:37,020 S1: Is it, um, the by elections coming up? Obviously you'll run, 534 00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:39,340 S1: the libs will run. Um, one nation will run at 535 00:24:39,340 --> 00:24:41,500 S1: an independent. Is that will that be a leadership test 536 00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:43,940 S1: for you? If the nationals don't poll ahead of One 537 00:24:43,940 --> 00:24:44,820 S1: Nation or the liberals? 538 00:24:44,859 --> 00:24:46,419 S2: Oh, I think it'd be very hard for us to 539 00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:48,179 S2: poll ahead of any of those. To be candid with, 540 00:24:48,180 --> 00:24:50,020 S2: you haven't been there for 25 years. I mean, it's 541 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:52,500 S2: been a Liberal seat since the 1940s when it was established. 542 00:24:52,540 --> 00:24:56,500 S2: We had it under Fisher 25 years ago. Um, we 543 00:24:56,540 --> 00:25:00,860 S2: haven't got any state seats apart from a slither of Cootamundra, um, 544 00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:04,540 S2: in Farrer that has any national party infrastructure. But we've 545 00:25:04,540 --> 00:25:07,780 S2: got strong membership there that want to run and we'll 546 00:25:07,780 --> 00:25:08,619 S2: have a candidate. 547 00:25:08,660 --> 00:25:09,619 S1: Do you know who that is yet? 548 00:25:09,740 --> 00:25:13,260 S2: No nominations closed on Monday, so we'll work through that. 549 00:25:13,260 --> 00:25:15,140 S2: But I think we'll have a role to play as 550 00:25:15,140 --> 00:25:18,980 S2: a coalition candidate to try. And I believe our role 551 00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:20,790 S2: will be to try and garner some of that one 552 00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:23,550 S2: Nation vote back to our side and to the coalition, 553 00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:26,550 S2: and then hopefully be able to siphon that off preferences 554 00:25:26,550 --> 00:25:28,870 S2: with the liberals. We'll be preferencing the Liberals. And Gus 555 00:25:28,869 --> 00:25:31,109 S2: and I have been very explicit about this, that we'll 556 00:25:31,109 --> 00:25:33,950 S2: work together to make sure that we get we get 557 00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:35,990 S2: one of our candidates up, but it's going to be difficult. 558 00:25:36,030 --> 00:25:38,469 S1: One nation ahead of them. Independent. The independent and. 559 00:25:38,470 --> 00:25:40,750 S2: Labor. I mean, I don't know where the where the 560 00:25:40,750 --> 00:25:43,350 S2: polling will be, but people are angry in Farah that 561 00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:44,550 S2: they're going to have to go back to the polls. 562 00:25:44,550 --> 00:25:48,510 S2: That's always difficult for the side of politics that causes that. 563 00:25:48,670 --> 00:25:52,149 S2: So we're going to be constructive and proactive in working 564 00:25:52,150 --> 00:25:54,670 S2: with the libs to to try and get a coalition 565 00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:57,110 S2: member of Parliament. It'll be difficult for us. I've been 566 00:25:57,109 --> 00:25:59,389 S2: upfront with Angus about that. We haven't been there for 567 00:25:59,390 --> 00:26:02,149 S2: 25 years, but it doesn't mean we're not going to 568 00:26:02,150 --> 00:26:04,310 S2: swing hard because I think we do have a role 569 00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:06,629 S2: to play that we can show that you can have 570 00:26:06,630 --> 00:26:10,590 S2: that conscience within the coalition that actually can get outcomes, 571 00:26:10,590 --> 00:26:13,790 S2: rather than just being a professional complaints desk outside yelling 572 00:26:13,790 --> 00:26:17,550 S2: and screaming, but can never affect change. Whereas you park 573 00:26:17,550 --> 00:26:19,640 S2: your vote boat with the National, you know you're going 574 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,760 S2: to have a strong voice inside a coalition that can 575 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:22,760 S2: get things done. 576 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,600 S1: Well, you say they're a protest party. 577 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:25,760 S2: Would you say that, then? 578 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:31,280 S1: Oh, almost. Why would you? There's clearly widespread concern in 579 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,679 S1: the community about migration. And you guys are trying to 580 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,520 S1: tap into that. And they've lost trust with the electorate 581 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,879 S1: on that issue. One nation is clearly doing very well 582 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,760 S1: on it because they're very simplistic in their messaging. But 583 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,800 S1: we saw Pauline Hanson say there are no good Muslims. 584 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,399 S1: The other week is, is Pauline Hanson and her party 585 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:45,639 S1: a racist party? Do you think? 586 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,480 S2: Oh, I don't think so. I think that's harsh. I 587 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:56,560 S2: think Pauline's had trouble in, in in messaging sometimes and inarticulate. Articulate. Yeah. 588 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,920 S2: Is probably the word and I don't think I like, 589 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,560 S2: look to see the good in people and I think 590 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,960 S2: there is good in Pauline Hanson. I know her personally. 591 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,040 S2: I think, um, she has good intent. She doesn't always 592 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,679 S2: communicate it the way she should, but obviously there's more 593 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,880 S2: conflict within one nation about that than there is outside it. Obviously, 594 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,490 S2: Barnaby doesn't agree and there was a conflict around that. 595 00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:19,689 S2: They can sort themselves out. 596 00:27:19,930 --> 00:27:21,010 S1: Will that blow up, do you think? 597 00:27:21,050 --> 00:27:23,169 S2: I don't know. I'm not interested in one nation. I'm 598 00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:25,650 S2: interested in saying to the people we want to represent, 599 00:27:25,650 --> 00:27:29,489 S2: the people that we represent. Now that we're going to 600 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:32,730 S2: be a constant, stable force of common sense in Canberra, 601 00:27:32,770 --> 00:27:35,810 S2: a conscience within the coalition that gets your fair share, 602 00:27:35,810 --> 00:27:39,010 S2: particularly when you live outside a capital city. That's the Annunciation, 603 00:27:39,050 --> 00:27:41,210 S2: a message that I think we can prove and we 604 00:27:41,250 --> 00:27:44,369 S2: will continue to demonstrate with the policies we take forward. 605 00:27:44,410 --> 00:27:47,209 S1: If that message doesn't start to draw back One Nation supporters, 606 00:27:47,210 --> 00:27:50,610 S1: and it looks like they might obliterate the coalition, would 607 00:27:50,609 --> 00:27:52,410 S1: you be open to a leadership change down the track 608 00:27:52,410 --> 00:27:54,409 S1: in this term to a to a Matt Canavan or 609 00:27:54,410 --> 00:27:55,129 S1: a Bridget McKenzie? 610 00:27:55,450 --> 00:27:58,690 S2: That's the party room determines that. I mean, I'm comfortable 611 00:27:58,690 --> 00:28:02,210 S2: in my own skin. I put my record for nearly 612 00:28:02,210 --> 00:28:02,609 S2: four years. 613 00:28:02,650 --> 00:28:05,450 S1: You've talked you you've talked a lot about your record 614 00:28:05,450 --> 00:28:07,410 S1: and you have a leg to stand on, I accept that. 615 00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:09,689 S1: But I know that. I know the itemized list is 616 00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:10,130 S1: all I'm saying. 617 00:28:10,170 --> 00:28:11,650 S2: Yeah. No. It's good. I'm happy for you to go 618 00:28:11,650 --> 00:28:15,179 S2: through them again. But, you know, I'm relaxed. I'm comfortable 619 00:28:15,180 --> 00:28:17,660 S2: in my own skin. I know the rules in which 620 00:28:17,660 --> 00:28:20,540 S2: you sign up to. I'm not. I'm not worried about that. 621 00:28:20,580 --> 00:28:23,060 S2: What I'm worried about is the contribution that I get 622 00:28:23,060 --> 00:28:25,300 S2: to make, the influence I get to make, and the 623 00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:27,860 S2: legacy I get to leave. If you start worrying about 624 00:28:27,859 --> 00:28:30,380 S2: all this other stuff, it sounds great in here. It's 625 00:28:30,380 --> 00:28:33,020 S2: all great. And we all run around the corridors making 626 00:28:33,260 --> 00:28:36,100 S2: texts and phone calls and oh, isn't this great? You 627 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,100 S2: know what? That's if you start worrying about that, then 628 00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:42,140 S2: you lose sight of what you're here for. That. That's 629 00:28:42,140 --> 00:28:45,100 S2: not what I came to this place to do. I 630 00:28:45,140 --> 00:28:47,940 S2: came to make sure that next generation don't go over 631 00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:50,740 S2: the range. They come home and they stay home. That's 632 00:28:50,740 --> 00:28:52,540 S2: the legacy I want to leave for the people I 633 00:28:52,540 --> 00:28:54,780 S2: represent in regional Australia. 634 00:28:55,340 --> 00:28:57,100 S1: Well, you won on the voice you want on net zero. 635 00:28:57,140 --> 00:28:59,060 S1: You want a divestiture. They were big wins. What are 636 00:28:59,060 --> 00:29:01,820 S1: your next three big policy priorities in the coalition? 637 00:29:01,820 --> 00:29:04,700 S2: Well, I think importantly the regional Australia Future Fund is 638 00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:07,620 S2: is so important to us. It's $1 billion every year 639 00:29:07,620 --> 00:29:09,980 S2: above and beyond. These are the things that people in 640 00:29:09,980 --> 00:29:12,140 S2: capital cities take for granted. They can get a childcare place. 641 00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:15,310 S2: We we're in regional and rural and remote Australia. It's 642 00:29:15,310 --> 00:29:17,030 S2: not about childcare affordability. 643 00:29:17,070 --> 00:29:17,990 S1: What does this fund do? 644 00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:21,070 S2: So it'll be $1 billion a year and we will 645 00:29:21,070 --> 00:29:23,190 S2: set up out of that every year. That dividend will 646 00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:26,430 S2: go into creating more childcare places in regional, rural and 647 00:29:26,430 --> 00:29:28,830 S2: remote areas that we don't have because we we it's 648 00:29:28,830 --> 00:29:32,150 S2: not about affordability, its accessibility. There's simply I've got towns 649 00:29:32,150 --> 00:29:35,670 S2: with childcare centres that have got waiting lists for three years. 650 00:29:35,910 --> 00:29:39,510 S2: So I've before I come into Parliament, I mean, I 651 00:29:39,670 --> 00:29:43,910 S2: manage some rural bankers. I'd lose a whole lot of my, 652 00:29:44,030 --> 00:29:47,070 S2: my female managers because they couldn't get a childcare place. 653 00:29:47,310 --> 00:29:50,750 S2: You saw the opportunity, loss and costs that we had 654 00:29:50,750 --> 00:29:53,550 S2: because they didn't have the amenity that people in cities 655 00:29:53,550 --> 00:29:55,870 S2: had to go and have a career. I mean, that's 656 00:29:55,910 --> 00:29:58,670 S2: not how this country should operate. So I'm passionate about 657 00:29:58,670 --> 00:30:00,830 S2: making sure we get that right about making sure we've 658 00:30:00,830 --> 00:30:05,229 S2: got some doctors that 250 Commonwealth supported places to change 659 00:30:05,230 --> 00:30:07,790 S2: doctors in regional universities. So they'll go and be out 660 00:30:07,790 --> 00:30:10,390 S2: there in the bush. These are the heart and soul 661 00:30:10,390 --> 00:30:12,720 S2: issues that we need and to fill in some potholes 662 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,200 S2: above and beyond the money we get. That's about making 663 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,640 S2: sure we get our fair share. It's about when in 664 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,200 S2: that moment, when you're on the side of the road 665 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,840 S2: and you've you've broken down or you've had a car accident, 666 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,440 S2: you might be able to use your mobile phone to 667 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,560 S2: ring 000. That those mobile phone towers that you paid 668 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,000 S2: for as a taxpayer are used, and the telcos are 669 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,960 S2: held to account. That's important to me that in our 670 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,040 S2: moment you get that amenity of life. You're protected about 671 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,040 S2: supermarkets not just treating farmers right, but treating you right. 672 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,840 S2: They're stitching you up as well when you go down 673 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,720 S2: to Coles, stitching you up. So that's that's the stuff 674 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,560 S2: that we fought for and that's why it was important 675 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,080 S2: after the election. I didn't want. 676 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,440 S1: Is divestiture still your policy now? Yeah it is, it is. 677 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,240 S2: That's well, that's I'm about to say that's why after 678 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:57,400 S2: the election, we didn't want to. 679 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,640 S1: Yeah, I remember it got stuck in there and I 680 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,360 S1: just we haven't heard about it since then. And I 681 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,520 S1: wonder how Angus Taylor is a free marketer. Thinks about it. 682 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,680 S1: I think he did a thesis on it. 683 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,960 S2: No, Angus Taylor was actually was the one. He and 684 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,960 S2: I created. The bill that we put in in the 685 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,800 S2: last parliament on divestiture of the supermarket. 686 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,210 S1: And I think he studied at university. 687 00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:13,490 S2: So what we didn't want to do is to go 688 00:31:13,490 --> 00:31:15,690 S2: backwards for three years and to be fighting for these 689 00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:19,250 S2: four key policies. So after the election, that's why we accepted, 690 00:31:19,570 --> 00:31:23,610 S2: despite it being against coalition convention, to remove all the 691 00:31:23,610 --> 00:31:26,690 S2: policies that if we got those four, we'd stick around 692 00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:27,930 S2: because I didn't want to waste three. 693 00:31:28,090 --> 00:31:29,370 S1: Are they in the new coalition agreement? 694 00:31:29,410 --> 00:31:31,490 S2: Yes they are. That's part of the reason we came back. 695 00:31:31,530 --> 00:31:34,330 S1: And so divestitures in it. The new one with Taylor. 696 00:31:34,370 --> 00:31:36,170 S1: That's exactly. Anything else in that agreement? 697 00:31:36,170 --> 00:31:38,729 S2: We haven't asked for anything other than what we we 698 00:31:38,770 --> 00:31:42,250 S2: wanted after the election. We're not being greedy. We just 699 00:31:42,250 --> 00:31:43,170 S2: want to be respected. 700 00:31:43,210 --> 00:31:45,650 S1: Anything more on solidarity? Was there any tweaks to how 701 00:31:45,650 --> 00:31:46,370 S1: that language is. 702 00:31:46,850 --> 00:31:48,650 S2: In terms of where we are? We've got a really 703 00:31:48,650 --> 00:31:52,170 S2: good working relationship, and I've known Gus since I got here. 704 00:31:52,490 --> 00:31:57,490 S2: He's an intellectual powerhouse. I actually respect his intellect and 705 00:31:57,530 --> 00:31:59,450 S2: and what I like about it is that he's got 706 00:31:59,770 --> 00:32:01,290 S2: a country lens to that, because he grew up in 707 00:32:01,290 --> 00:32:05,170 S2: the bush. So I'm comfortable with where we are and 708 00:32:05,170 --> 00:32:09,020 S2: his understanding of the National Party. And, you know, I 709 00:32:09,020 --> 00:32:12,460 S2: think that there is great alignment there. And the nationals 710 00:32:12,460 --> 00:32:15,780 S2: aren't asking for anything more than those core policies that 711 00:32:15,780 --> 00:32:19,220 S2: actually go to the heart of giving our people some 712 00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:21,420 S2: hope out there that they, you know, they can have 713 00:32:21,420 --> 00:32:23,380 S2: the amenity of life and have that career that we 714 00:32:23,380 --> 00:32:25,060 S2: take for granted in a capital city. 715 00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:26,820 S1: There's a lot of interest in where you'll go in 716 00:32:26,860 --> 00:32:30,420 S1: the migration policy. Josh Frydenberg said last week at a 717 00:32:30,420 --> 00:32:34,220 S1: conservative conference called aspire that Australia should be looking to 718 00:32:34,260 --> 00:32:38,140 S1: some European, uh, countries and other models where those countries 719 00:32:38,140 --> 00:32:42,060 S1: are put in new rules to for migrants to have 720 00:32:42,060 --> 00:32:44,620 S1: a longer period before they can become permanent residents, to 721 00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:47,340 S1: look at things like employment, whether they've broken the law 722 00:32:47,380 --> 00:32:50,540 S1: effectively to ensure that there is a greater level of integration. 723 00:32:50,580 --> 00:32:52,100 S1: Is that a model that Australia should be looking at? 724 00:32:52,140 --> 00:32:55,140 S2: Yeah, and we'll come out with our final policy. But 725 00:32:55,180 --> 00:32:57,340 S2: just cast your mind back to the last election. We 726 00:32:57,340 --> 00:33:00,580 S2: had quite a quite a harsh migration policy in the 727 00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:03,780 S2: eyes of many pundits. Uh, what Peter Dutton and I 728 00:33:03,780 --> 00:33:05,780 S2: took to the last election. In fact, it's probably pretty 729 00:33:05,780 --> 00:33:08,630 S2: close to where one nation got to now. So we're 730 00:33:08,630 --> 00:33:11,310 S2: going to look at this also around values and principles 731 00:33:11,310 --> 00:33:13,190 S2: about the people we're bringing in, the standard of people 732 00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:16,510 S2: we're bringing in. But you know before we lost government 733 00:33:16,510 --> 00:33:20,630 S2: in 22, uh, the visa that the nationals fought hard 734 00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:23,670 S2: for and we negotiated and got it was part of 735 00:33:23,710 --> 00:33:26,430 S2: that was around, um, saying to people who come to 736 00:33:26,430 --> 00:33:28,070 S2: this country, we can come, you can come and live 737 00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:30,030 S2: in a particular area and work in a particular industry. 738 00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:32,590 S2: You have to do it for five years. Then if 739 00:33:32,590 --> 00:33:34,590 S2: you stay for another two after that, that's your first 740 00:33:34,590 --> 00:33:36,910 S2: pathway to permanent residency. And I think there's a lot 741 00:33:36,910 --> 00:33:39,230 S2: of merit in that. And I see that already in 742 00:33:39,230 --> 00:33:41,990 S2: places in my electorate like Charleville, we've got an abattoir 743 00:33:42,030 --> 00:33:46,430 S2: out there, about 150 Vietnamese that are there on a 744 00:33:47,030 --> 00:33:50,030 S2: workforce agreements. They've been there 5 or 6 years. Their 745 00:33:50,030 --> 00:33:52,870 S2: kids are the dux of the school. They're the captains 746 00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:54,870 S2: of the school. They're not hanging out at the pubs 747 00:33:54,870 --> 00:33:57,350 S2: of a Friday night causing fights. The first are church 748 00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:59,350 S2: on a Sunday or the first to set up for 749 00:33:59,350 --> 00:34:03,950 S2: the school fete. These are great people that personify the 750 00:34:03,950 --> 00:34:06,560 S2: values and the standards that we would expect in this 751 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,279 S2: country that's built this country on migration that we should 752 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,799 S2: be bringing. We do need migration, understand that, but we 753 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,440 S2: need to have a fewer number with higher standards, and 754 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,960 S2: we need them to go to where we need them 755 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,839 S2: to to make that contribution. And that's the that's the 756 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,960 S2: that's the power that we have without costing the Australian 757 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,759 S2: taxpayer fortune, because that's just a lever of common sense. 758 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:27,880 S2: And that's where I think we can have a migration 759 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,680 S2: policy that gives the states time to build some homes, 760 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,080 S2: slowing it by slowing it down, but by lifting the 761 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,080 S2: standards on values and on skills that we need where 762 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,279 S2: we need them, then you give them that ticket and 763 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,799 S2: you can eyeball them. And once they're entrenched in a 764 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,680 S2: community and they're contributing to a community, they're contributing to 765 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,839 S2: our country. And that's what you've got to get back to, 766 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,239 S2: is understand the contribution not just migrants make, but we 767 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,239 S2: as Australian citizens should live by this. What are we 768 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,640 S2: contributing back to our community? Because what we contribute back 769 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,560 S2: to our community contributes to our great country. And that's 770 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,600 S2: a principle that I think many of us have lost, 771 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,640 S2: but particularly those that we're bringing to this country, we 772 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:03,930 S2: need to make sure they expire. 773 00:35:04,130 --> 00:35:06,770 S1: Do you like that Frydenberg idea? I know it's not policy. 774 00:35:07,530 --> 00:35:09,810 S2: There's value. Definitely. And I think this is where there 775 00:35:09,810 --> 00:35:11,850 S2: is a real opportunity. 776 00:35:12,650 --> 00:35:13,410 S1: Value in what? 777 00:35:13,650 --> 00:35:16,850 S2: In looking at these types of these types of policy 778 00:35:16,890 --> 00:35:19,890 S2: policy elements that could be adopted. And I think you 779 00:35:19,890 --> 00:35:21,569 S2: shouldn't shut your mind to it. I think I think 780 00:35:21,570 --> 00:35:24,810 S2: we had a very strong migration policy the last election. 781 00:35:25,210 --> 00:35:27,810 S2: And I think now there's an opportunity to to refine that. 782 00:35:27,810 --> 00:35:32,810 S2: And understanding the shift in geopolitical atmosphere that we're experiencing 783 00:35:32,810 --> 00:35:34,370 S2: is to make sure we do get that right. 784 00:35:34,410 --> 00:35:37,689 S1: How does how does that feed into the policy formulation? 785 00:35:37,730 --> 00:35:41,370 S2: Well, again, it comes down to don't discriminate on race 786 00:35:41,370 --> 00:35:44,489 S2: or religion. You discriminate on their values and principles they're 787 00:35:44,489 --> 00:35:46,170 S2: going to bring to this country. Are they going to 788 00:35:46,210 --> 00:35:48,529 S2: make that contribution to their community and their country? You 789 00:35:48,530 --> 00:35:51,010 S2: don't need to overcomplicate it, but you need to eyeball them. 790 00:35:51,050 --> 00:35:52,969 S2: And I think you need to make sure you understand 791 00:35:52,969 --> 00:35:55,489 S2: where they're coming from and what they can contribute. But 792 00:35:55,489 --> 00:35:58,210 S2: I think there's also that time element that makes sense 793 00:35:58,450 --> 00:36:02,049 S2: around their their lived experience in Australia and how they 794 00:36:02,140 --> 00:36:04,860 S2: want to contribute and the way they contribute to Australia, 795 00:36:04,860 --> 00:36:08,100 S2: that it aligns with that great migration story that's built us. 796 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:11,940 S1: The Canadian government, another centre left government, is very explicitly 797 00:36:11,940 --> 00:36:15,739 S1: linked the migration settings to housing. Is that something you 798 00:36:15,739 --> 00:36:16,299 S1: guys will look at? 799 00:36:16,340 --> 00:36:18,860 S2: Well, I mean this is where the missed opportunity. I mean, 800 00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:21,260 S2: there has been abject failure of state and local government 801 00:36:21,260 --> 00:36:25,419 S2: in planning. So the reality was we need to buy 802 00:36:25,420 --> 00:36:28,420 S2: them time to rebuild and to build supply. What the 803 00:36:28,420 --> 00:36:31,060 S2: federal government lever, they can pull this migration. And I 804 00:36:31,060 --> 00:36:32,660 S2: think what we've got to do is make sure that 805 00:36:32,660 --> 00:36:34,739 S2: we give young people hope because they've lost hope of 806 00:36:34,739 --> 00:36:37,060 S2: ever owning home. And if you don't own something in 807 00:36:37,060 --> 00:36:39,700 S2: this country, you're less likely to fight for it. So 808 00:36:39,739 --> 00:36:42,379 S2: that's why I think it's important that we we look 809 00:36:42,380 --> 00:36:45,299 S2: at this through a multifaceted lens and we get the 810 00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:48,460 S2: numbers right. We get the settings right of who's coming 811 00:36:48,660 --> 00:36:51,700 S2: and their values, their skills. And about the problem we're 812 00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:53,940 S2: trying to solve, which is hope for homes. 813 00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:57,339 S1: So explicitly linking, you know, getting the numbers down so 814 00:36:57,340 --> 00:36:58,739 S1: that construction can keep up. 815 00:36:58,780 --> 00:37:00,870 S2: You've got to buy time. I mean Labor's brought in 816 00:37:00,870 --> 00:37:03,430 S2: 1.3 million people in the last three and a half years. 817 00:37:03,469 --> 00:37:07,030 S2: They've prioritized dog groomers and martial arts instructors above roofers, 818 00:37:07,070 --> 00:37:09,270 S2: Tyler's and builders electricians. I mean, if you've got a 819 00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:13,830 S2: supply problem one you slow down the demand lever and two, 820 00:37:13,830 --> 00:37:16,750 S2: you bring in the people that can actually help contribute 821 00:37:16,750 --> 00:37:18,830 S2: to to build supply. That's just common sense. I mean, 822 00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:22,390 S2: I'm not I'm not academically gifted. You know, Chinchilla stayed 823 00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:24,310 S2: high in grade eight, taught me about demand supply. I 824 00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:26,790 S2: didn't need to write 6000 word essay that Jim Chalmers 825 00:37:26,790 --> 00:37:28,230 S2: did to work that principle out. 826 00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:31,230 S1: You and Angus Taylor can have an academic. He can 827 00:37:31,230 --> 00:37:32,190 S1: do some schooling for you. 828 00:37:32,190 --> 00:37:33,870 S2: I think he'll tell me up pretty easy. 829 00:37:34,190 --> 00:37:35,190 S1: Thanks for joining us, David. 830 00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:35,509 S2: Thanks for. 831 00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:41,990 S1: Having me. Cheers. Today's episode was produced by Josh towers 832 00:37:41,989 --> 00:37:45,509 S1: with technical assistance from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is 833 00:37:45,510 --> 00:37:48,150 S1: Tammy Mills, and our podcast are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy 834 00:37:48,150 --> 00:37:52,029 S1: and Tom McKendrick. Before we go, follow Inside Politics and 835 00:37:52,030 --> 00:37:54,430 S1: leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. I'm 836 00:37:54,430 --> 00:37:55,990 S1: Paul SoCal, thanks for listening.