1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,280 S1: Hi, it's Samantha Selinger Morris here. And I'm the host 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,640 S1: of the Morning Edition. We're bringing you the best episodes 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,840 S1: of 2025 before your Morning Edition team returns. Mid January. 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,320 S1: As we say goodbye to 2025, we can only hope. 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,320 S1: We can also see an end to the swirling chaos 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,160 S1: of multiple wars that raged across the world and in 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,960 S1: the case of the Israel-Gaza conflict, fractured so much of 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,600 S1: our society. Today we return to a special episode with 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,720 S1: British barrister and human rights lawyer Philip Sands, who defended 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,000 S1: Palestine at the International Court of Justice on how to 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:44,400 S1: retain compassion and integrity in our fragmented world. So, Philip, 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,959 S1: we have to start with your latest book, 38 Landry Street. 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,360 S1: In part, it's about how the former Chilean dictator Augusto 14 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,120 S1: Pinochet escaped to Chile unpunished after being arrested and charged 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,960 S1: with crimes against humanity and genocide. Now you were involved 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,360 S1: in the case to try to hold him to account 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,320 S1: in Britain. Tell us, what were you arguing and why? 18 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,560 S1: In the end, did Pinochet not get his day in court? 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,480 S2: Well, thank you for that question. I was originally contacted 20 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,560 S2: by his lawyers, asked to act for him. I would 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,160 S2: have done so because we have a principle at the 22 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,000 S2: English bar, as in many bars in Australia and elsewhere, 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,240 S2: called the cab rank principle. We don't turn down cases 24 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,080 S2: because we don't like the person's politics or the cut 25 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,200 S2: of their jib or whatever. But, uh, my wife told 26 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,399 S2: me she would divorce me if I did the case, and, um, 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,840 S2: I didn't do the case. And then Human Rights Watch 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,600 S2: came along, and I acted against Pinochet. And what that meant, 29 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,760 S2: amongst other things, was I had a front row seat 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,160 S2: throughout the 500 or so days that he was incarcerated 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,000 S2: in London, through all the shenanigans and proceedings. It was 32 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,280 S2: an incredible story. So Augusto Pinochet was the head of 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:59,280 S2: the army in in Chile. And on September the 11th, 1973, He, uh, 34 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:07,040 S2: led a coup d'état overthrowing a democratically elected leftist socialist president, 35 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,720 S2: Salvador Allende, who would die by his own hand during 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,280 S2: the events of that day. And for the next 17 years, 37 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,880 S2: he was head of state. From the very first days, 38 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,400 S2: the military junta determined that there were many undesirables who 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:30,320 S2: would be got rid of and got rid of meant, um, detained, tortured, killed, 40 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,600 S2: or disappeared. And to this day, 1300 people are still disappeared. 41 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,919 S2: And the upshot was the then Home Secretary, Jack straw, 42 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,840 S2: decided in January 2000, uh, that he was not fit 43 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:47,360 S2: for trial. And one of the storylines in this book is, 44 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,639 S2: was he indeed not fit for trial, or was it 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,560 S2: a ruse to get him back? 46 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,040 S1: Okay, well, let's get to Walter Rauff because of course, 47 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,390 S1: he is a great focus of your book as well. 48 00:02:57,710 --> 00:03:00,869 S1: He was a Nazi SS officer involved in the invention 49 00:03:00,870 --> 00:03:03,310 S1: of the gas vans that were the precursor to the 50 00:03:03,310 --> 00:03:06,590 S1: gas chambers in the concentration camps where millions of people 51 00:03:06,590 --> 00:03:11,910 S1: were murdered during the Holocaust. Now, Walter Ralph also escaped justice. 52 00:03:12,310 --> 00:03:15,150 S1: Tell us about how and where he escaped to, because 53 00:03:15,150 --> 00:03:18,350 S1: you really couldn't make it up. Uh, and let's just 54 00:03:18,350 --> 00:03:20,230 S1: start there because you really couldn't make it up. 55 00:03:20,270 --> 00:03:23,270 S2: You you really couldn't. I mean, you really couldn't. So 56 00:03:23,270 --> 00:03:27,590 S2: he oversees the operation of these mobile gas vans in 57 00:03:27,590 --> 00:03:32,350 S2: 1941 and 1942. Hundreds of thousands of human beings are 58 00:03:32,350 --> 00:03:36,470 S2: murdered in this way. He gets up to various other nasty. 59 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:39,990 S2: He's off to Tunisia, where he's responsible for the extermination 60 00:03:39,990 --> 00:03:44,270 S2: of the Jews. And he then is posted in Milan, 61 00:03:44,270 --> 00:03:50,150 S2: where he's responsible for rounding up and getting rid of partisans, leftists, 62 00:03:50,150 --> 00:03:51,990 S2: and so on and so forth. To this day, he's 63 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:55,830 S2: still a hated figure in in Milan. His name is notorious. 64 00:03:55,950 --> 00:03:59,590 S2: He escaped first to Syria and then makes his way 65 00:03:59,630 --> 00:04:01,830 S2: via Italy to South America. 66 00:04:02,470 --> 00:04:06,270 S3: Ralph had every reason to hide in 1940. He had 67 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:10,190 S3: deployed gas chamber trucks in Eastern Europe to assist SS 68 00:04:10,190 --> 00:04:15,110 S3: commandos in the mass murdering of communists, gypsies, the handicapped 69 00:04:15,110 --> 00:04:16,710 S3: and above all, Jews. 70 00:04:16,710 --> 00:04:21,270 S2: Where in 1956, he and his wife Edith meet a 71 00:04:21,310 --> 00:04:25,230 S2: charming Chilean couple who tell them they are in the 72 00:04:25,230 --> 00:04:28,150 S2: wrong country and they should really be in Chile, where 73 00:04:28,150 --> 00:04:31,670 S2: they love people like him. And there's a fine German community. 74 00:04:32,190 --> 00:04:36,230 S2: The key to his whereabouts was here in Santiago. A 75 00:04:36,230 --> 00:04:40,070 S2: local telephone directory produced the first clue. I checked through 76 00:04:40,070 --> 00:04:44,110 S2: its columns, revealed this name, the only Ralph listed in 77 00:04:44,110 --> 00:04:46,070 S2: the city, and he becomes the manager of a king 78 00:04:46,070 --> 00:04:49,229 S2: crab cannery. He fights off an effort to extradite him 79 00:04:49,350 --> 00:04:54,750 S2: to West Germany for prosecution for crimes against humanity and genocide. 80 00:04:54,750 --> 00:04:57,950 S2: And then on September the 11th, 1973, the day of 81 00:04:57,950 --> 00:05:01,030 S2: the coup to which we had just made mention, miracle 82 00:05:01,029 --> 00:05:05,150 S2: of miracles, his friend from Quito, Ecuador, becomes head of 83 00:05:05,150 --> 00:05:08,510 S2: state of Chile because it is none other than Augusto Pinochet. 84 00:05:09,830 --> 00:05:13,950 S4: A sleepy street some kilometers from the city center. Suddenly, 85 00:05:13,950 --> 00:05:17,270 S4: the unexpected happened. Approaching from the north end of Los 86 00:05:17,270 --> 00:05:23,310 S4: Pozos was a man himself, SS Obersturmbannführer Walter Rauff, the 87 00:05:23,310 --> 00:05:26,870 S4: alleged murderer of a quarter of a million human beings. 88 00:05:26,910 --> 00:05:29,710 S1: And really, is it legal limitations that, in the end, 89 00:05:29,750 --> 00:05:34,070 S1: prevented him from being convicted, seeing his day in court? 90 00:05:34,070 --> 00:05:37,430 S1: Because my understanding is that Germany requested to extradite him 91 00:05:37,430 --> 00:05:40,750 S1: to Chile, and that the Chilean Supreme Court declined on 92 00:05:40,750 --> 00:05:43,550 S1: the grounds that the country's laws applied to the crimes 93 00:05:43,589 --> 00:05:46,230 S1: Ralph was accused of committing, and that the statute of 94 00:05:46,230 --> 00:05:50,229 S1: limitations had expired. So that's really key to this, isn't it? 95 00:05:50,270 --> 00:05:53,270 S2: Spot on, spot on. Basically, Chile had a rule which 96 00:05:53,270 --> 00:05:57,110 S2: said for an extradition to take place, the crime alleged 97 00:05:57,150 --> 00:06:02,310 S2: must have occurred no more than 15 years earlier. So 98 00:06:02,310 --> 00:06:05,630 S2: the crimes of the gas vans had occurred in 41 99 00:06:05,630 --> 00:06:08,950 S2: and 42, 21, 22 years had passed, and therefore the 100 00:06:08,990 --> 00:06:12,630 S2: Chilean Supreme Court, by six votes to one, ruled that 101 00:06:12,630 --> 00:06:14,589 S2: he could not be extradited, and he goes back to 102 00:06:14,630 --> 00:06:17,390 S2: his job and runs the King Crab Cannery. I mean, 103 00:06:17,390 --> 00:06:20,190 S2: the guy is a raging anti-Semite for the rest of 104 00:06:20,190 --> 00:06:24,390 S2: his life. Every year he celebrates the Führer's birthday. There 105 00:06:24,390 --> 00:06:28,590 S2: are sing songs with other old Nazi comrades, a truly 106 00:06:28,589 --> 00:06:32,070 S2: nasty piece of work. And there's no question he had 107 00:06:32,070 --> 00:06:34,270 S2: a visceral hatred not only of Jews, but also of 108 00:06:34,270 --> 00:06:37,670 S2: communists and other and many others, and he adhered to 109 00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:39,950 S2: the same views for the entirety of his life. 110 00:06:39,990 --> 00:06:42,430 S1: And there's another personal connection which I have to ask 111 00:06:42,430 --> 00:06:45,349 S1: you about, because, of course, 38 Laundry Street isn't just 112 00:06:45,350 --> 00:06:48,030 S1: a detective legal thriller. It really is partly a memoir, 113 00:06:48,029 --> 00:06:50,630 S1: and you have a personal connection. I think it can 114 00:06:50,630 --> 00:06:53,460 S1: be said to Walter Ralph, really in the most horrible 115 00:06:53,460 --> 00:06:56,299 S1: of ways. I believe some of your relatives probably died 116 00:06:56,300 --> 00:07:00,100 S1: in Ralph's gas vans. So who were these relatives and how, 117 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:02,659 S1: if in any way, did this impact your writing? 118 00:07:02,940 --> 00:07:05,300 S2: Yeah, I find this very touching. It was only in 119 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:08,740 S2: writing East West Street that I really came to understand 120 00:07:08,940 --> 00:07:12,260 S2: what had happened to my mother and her family in 121 00:07:12,260 --> 00:07:15,860 S2: Vienna in 1938 and 1939, and I came to learn 122 00:07:16,180 --> 00:07:19,140 S2: the full details of how she was taken to safety 123 00:07:19,140 --> 00:07:23,620 S2: by a remarkable lady, an evangelical Christian missionary called Elsie Tilney. 124 00:07:23,780 --> 00:07:27,060 S2: Elsie Tilney travels from Paris to the West Bahnhof in 125 00:07:27,060 --> 00:07:31,500 S2: Vienna to pick up two little girls. One is my mother, Ruth, 126 00:07:31,740 --> 00:07:35,140 S2: and the other is my mother's 12 year old cousin. 127 00:07:35,180 --> 00:07:40,540 S2: Hertha and Hertha at the station decides she cannot bear 128 00:07:40,540 --> 00:07:44,220 S2: to be separated from her mother and stays in Vienna, 129 00:07:44,540 --> 00:07:48,940 S2: and two years later, Hertha and her mother are deported 130 00:07:48,940 --> 00:07:53,980 S2: from Vienna with my great grandmother to Poland, and they 131 00:07:53,980 --> 00:07:57,460 S2: end up in the ghetto, in lodge and lodge is 132 00:07:57,460 --> 00:08:02,460 S2: where the mobile gas van had a serious activity. And 133 00:08:02,460 --> 00:08:06,260 S2: the materials on the mobile gas vans fingering Valter Ralph 134 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:09,340 S2: um appear in the Nuremberg trial in relation to the 135 00:08:09,340 --> 00:08:12,380 S2: lodge ghetto. And so there appears to be a direct connection, 136 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:17,220 S2: you know, between the murder of Herta Gruber and her 137 00:08:17,220 --> 00:08:19,700 S2: mother and and Valter Ralph. And that is, of course, 138 00:08:19,740 --> 00:08:22,420 S2: very personal. And again, as I as I said before, 139 00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:26,700 S2: in a sense that makes it more real and, and 140 00:08:26,980 --> 00:08:29,180 S2: and even more alive, but it also makes it more 141 00:08:29,180 --> 00:08:32,340 S2: difficult because when you've got a personal element, the way 142 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:34,060 S2: I write my books, I do want to keep a 143 00:08:34,059 --> 00:08:38,580 S2: certain distance. I don't want to get overly emotional. I 144 00:08:38,580 --> 00:08:41,660 S2: don't want to, you know, do a great big sob story. 145 00:08:41,660 --> 00:08:44,500 S2: That's not my style of writing. And it becomes much 146 00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:50,540 S2: more difficult to distance yourself when there are family members involved, 147 00:08:50,540 --> 00:08:54,620 S2: and that does produce in some readers a sentiment of 148 00:08:54,660 --> 00:08:57,459 S2: how could you talk to this person or give that 149 00:08:57,460 --> 00:09:01,180 S2: person space? But that is really, I think, what makes 150 00:09:01,179 --> 00:09:05,179 S2: the books have more resonance and have more readers, because 151 00:09:05,179 --> 00:09:08,100 S2: I'm leaving it to the readers to form their own 152 00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:10,380 S2: views and their own emotions. I don't want to impose 153 00:09:10,380 --> 00:09:13,179 S2: my emotions on the readers, but at times, to be honest, 154 00:09:13,179 --> 00:09:15,220 S2: it is. It's difficult. It's very difficult. 155 00:09:15,540 --> 00:09:18,459 S1: Totally understandable. And it leads me to my next thing 156 00:09:18,460 --> 00:09:21,579 S1: I really wanted to ask you about, because just last year, 157 00:09:21,820 --> 00:09:25,700 S1: you were involved in an incredibly consequential case in the 158 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:28,380 S1: International Court of Justice on behalf of Palestine for the 159 00:09:28,380 --> 00:09:33,500 S1: removal of Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories. And, well, 160 00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:34,940 S1: I guess how did you come to that role? Is 161 00:09:34,940 --> 00:09:37,100 S1: it something you wanted to take on in particular? 162 00:09:37,340 --> 00:09:40,340 S2: Sure. No, I mean, I do. So I have three lives. 163 00:09:40,340 --> 00:09:42,980 S2: I'm a professor at the university. I'm a barrister, and 164 00:09:42,980 --> 00:09:46,819 S2: I do. I only do cases before international courts, And 165 00:09:46,860 --> 00:09:49,339 S2: I and I write books. I had been involved for 166 00:09:49,340 --> 00:09:52,140 S2: 15 years on a case for a small African country 167 00:09:52,140 --> 00:09:55,900 S2: called Mauritius against the United Kingdom, and it concerned the 168 00:09:55,900 --> 00:09:59,860 S2: illegal occupation by the United Kingdom of an archipelago, the 169 00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:04,100 S2: Chagos Archipelago, which included one island, Diego Garcia, well known 170 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:08,180 S2: where there's a large US military base. And that turned 171 00:10:08,179 --> 00:10:11,420 S2: on what's called the right of self-determination, the right of 172 00:10:11,420 --> 00:10:15,420 S2: a people to determine for themselves what their future direction 173 00:10:15,420 --> 00:10:18,700 S2: is going to be. So after the Chagos case, the 174 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:20,660 S2: decision on that came down from the International Court of 175 00:10:20,660 --> 00:10:25,500 S2: Justice in 2019. A year or so later, members of 176 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,540 S2: the team on the Mauritius case were invited by the 177 00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:33,460 S2: Palestinian Authority in, uh, in New York at the United Nations. 178 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:37,260 S2: Would we be involved in a similar request from the 179 00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:41,100 S2: General Assembly of the United Nations? And of course, it's 180 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:44,340 S2: a very sensitive issue for a lot of people. Um, 181 00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:48,570 S2: but this was a technical issue on the right of 182 00:10:48,570 --> 00:10:52,730 S2: self-determination of an entire people in relation to the territory 183 00:10:52,730 --> 00:10:55,410 S2: of the West Bank in relation to Gaza. And I 184 00:10:55,410 --> 00:10:58,770 S2: had no problem doing it. And I'm often asked about this, 185 00:10:58,809 --> 00:11:00,810 S2: you know, and I'll say, you know, the fact that 186 00:11:00,809 --> 00:11:05,569 S2: I did the case for Mauritius, um, on self-determination on Chagos, 187 00:11:06,010 --> 00:11:07,770 S2: in which the United Kingdom is in a sense the 188 00:11:07,770 --> 00:11:11,610 S2: opposing party doesn't make me anti-British and and I think 189 00:11:11,610 --> 00:11:15,810 S2: it's exactly the same doing a case on self-determination for 190 00:11:15,850 --> 00:11:18,570 S2: the Palestinian Authority. To be clear, I would not have 191 00:11:18,570 --> 00:11:21,970 S2: done it for Hamas. This is the Palestinian Authority, an 192 00:11:21,970 --> 00:11:26,449 S2: entity which recognises the right of Israel to exist, meant 193 00:11:26,610 --> 00:11:28,730 S2: sort of, sort of. It was a no brainer. But 194 00:11:28,730 --> 00:11:32,130 S2: for many people, you know, it's crossing a line. It's inappropriate. 195 00:11:32,130 --> 00:11:35,050 S2: That's not how I function. And the reality is many 196 00:11:35,050 --> 00:11:38,850 S2: of my cases involve sensitive issues. And that's because I 197 00:11:38,850 --> 00:11:43,089 S2: believe ultimately my social function as a barrister in these 198 00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:45,810 S2: cases is to contribute to the development of the rule 199 00:11:45,809 --> 00:11:48,130 S2: of law. That's really what it's about. So I did 200 00:11:48,130 --> 00:11:51,290 S2: participate in the case. The International Court of Justice then 201 00:11:51,290 --> 00:11:53,890 S2: gave its decision, and it ruled very clearly that the 202 00:11:53,890 --> 00:11:57,130 S2: Palestinian people have a right of self-determination and that right 203 00:11:57,130 --> 00:12:01,569 S2: of self-determination has been violated and is being violated. And, 204 00:12:01,610 --> 00:12:04,929 S2: of course, right now we have all the debate and 205 00:12:04,929 --> 00:12:07,730 S2: the discussion in relation to the horrors that happened on 206 00:12:07,730 --> 00:12:11,130 S2: October the 7th and the horrors that have happened subsequently 207 00:12:11,130 --> 00:12:14,050 S2: and are continuing to this day about the creation of 208 00:12:14,050 --> 00:12:17,250 S2: a Palestinian state. And we're shortly going to have a 209 00:12:17,250 --> 00:12:19,850 S2: big conference at the UN and some countries that have 210 00:12:19,850 --> 00:12:23,250 S2: not been willing to recognize a Palestinian state because of 211 00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:26,170 S2: what the court has said on the right of self-determination, 212 00:12:26,210 --> 00:12:28,930 S2: now appear to be on the cusp of doing so. And, 213 00:12:28,970 --> 00:12:32,250 S2: you know, I've I've understand these things are very contentious 214 00:12:32,250 --> 00:12:35,890 S2: and different people have very different views about it. And, um, 215 00:12:35,890 --> 00:12:39,050 S2: and I respect many of those views, but ultimately my 216 00:12:39,050 --> 00:12:41,090 S2: commitment is to the idea of the rule of law. 217 00:12:41,450 --> 00:12:43,610 S1: Well, this is why I am so delighted to have 218 00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:45,490 S1: you on today, because I feel like we're in a 219 00:12:45,490 --> 00:12:48,490 S1: similar situation before we started recording, I'll tell the listeners, 220 00:12:48,809 --> 00:12:50,650 S1: both you and I are Jewish, and we are both 221 00:12:50,650 --> 00:12:53,970 S1: reflecting on what a febrile environment this now is to 222 00:12:54,010 --> 00:12:56,970 S1: be discussing these issues. And I just wanted to ask 223 00:12:56,970 --> 00:13:00,929 S1: you for people who are having conversations about Israel and 224 00:13:00,929 --> 00:13:04,010 S1: Gaza in particular, all the issues you've just mentioned who 225 00:13:04,010 --> 00:13:07,410 S1: are struggling to to converse in any sort of productive way. 226 00:13:07,450 --> 00:13:11,250 S1: Because I've noticed, I guess, since October 7th in particular, 227 00:13:12,010 --> 00:13:15,290 S1: that people who advocate for Palestine or they advocate for Israel, 228 00:13:15,290 --> 00:13:18,490 S1: they seem to be really blocked from feeling compassion, perhaps 229 00:13:18,490 --> 00:13:22,970 S1: for the other side, or perhaps understanding what each other feels. And, 230 00:13:23,250 --> 00:13:24,929 S1: you know, I'm just wondering if do you have any 231 00:13:24,929 --> 00:13:28,170 S1: advice and tell me about any uncomfortable conversations you've had, 232 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:30,770 S1: if any? You know, in particular, possibly from Jewish people 233 00:13:30,770 --> 00:13:32,090 S1: who have said, well, you know. 234 00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:35,050 S2: I mean, these are as you as you rightly say, 235 00:13:35,050 --> 00:13:37,650 S2: these are intensely personal things. And I think it's for 236 00:13:37,650 --> 00:13:41,250 S2: each person to find their own path. I've found a 237 00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:44,530 S2: path that I'm very, very comfortable with. I mean, I 238 00:13:44,530 --> 00:13:48,689 S2: was appalled by what happened on October the 7th, and 239 00:13:49,090 --> 00:13:51,730 S2: I sensed, as many others did, that it was going 240 00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:55,490 S2: to be followed by further horrors as it has been. 241 00:13:55,730 --> 00:14:01,410 S2: I joined with, um, half a dozen other British Jewish lawyers, 242 00:14:01,410 --> 00:14:06,330 S2: including the former president of the British Supreme Court, David Neuberger, 243 00:14:06,330 --> 00:14:10,250 S2: in writing a piece for the Financial Times about 2 244 00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:12,930 S2: or 3 weeks after the events of October the 7th. 245 00:14:12,929 --> 00:14:14,810 S2: And we made three points. And I stick to those 246 00:14:14,809 --> 00:14:19,490 S2: three points. They are my guiding lines. One what happened 247 00:14:19,490 --> 00:14:22,650 S2: on October the 7th was a crime under international law. 248 00:14:22,650 --> 00:14:25,370 S2: Whatever name you give it. It was wrong and it 249 00:14:25,370 --> 00:14:29,730 S2: was criminal and it was outrageous. Two Israel as a 250 00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:33,810 S2: sovereign state has a right of self-defense. It cannot possibly 251 00:14:33,810 --> 00:14:37,010 S2: stand by while such things are happening. But and this 252 00:14:37,010 --> 00:14:41,360 S2: is where things get more tricky. three. The exercise of 253 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,600 S2: that right of self-defense must be in accordance with the 254 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:49,000 S2: norms of international law. That means you cannot target civilians. 255 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,200 S2: You cannot starve people. You cannot seek to purify a territory. 256 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,640 S2: As an Israeli minister has apparently recently said, there was 257 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:03,080 S2: some criticism of us that we were somehow assuming that 258 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,280 S2: one crime on October the 7th, would be followed by 259 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,560 S2: another crime. But that is, of course, what has happened. 260 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,080 S2: I mean, there's no way to conclude that what is 261 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,880 S2: happening in Gaza today is lawful. Anything more than what 262 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,320 S2: happened on October the 7th is lawful, and that is 263 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,080 S2: my roadmap for going forward. I use the rules of 264 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,960 S2: international law to provide guidance for me as to what 265 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,960 S2: is right for me and what is wrong for me. 266 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,440 S2: But I respect that it is for each person to 267 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:34,680 S2: find their own path. 268 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,040 S1: Okay, now I really appreciate that. I think those are 269 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,600 S1: excellent points, but I did want to follow up by asking, 270 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,480 S1: do you have any conversational tools or tools of narrative 271 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,680 S1: or something? Because you're a very unique person. You aren't 272 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,200 S1: just a barrister who's you know who, whose focus is 273 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,440 S1: the facts and it's, you know, very clinical, perhaps in 274 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,400 S1: its way, but you're also a storyteller. You know, you're 275 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,440 S1: this interesting combination of things. And I've noticed in my 276 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,000 S1: own conversations with people on opposite sides of the political 277 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,640 S1: spectrum that whatever rational point you make on either side, 278 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,360 S1: there's a counter, right. So, for instance, you know, you 279 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,840 S1: might say what you've just said and someone who's advocating 280 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,360 S1: for Israel would say, well, you know, the proceedings are illegitimate. 281 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,320 S1: You know, that's what Israel, of course, has argued about 282 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,480 S1: that case that you were involved with at the International 283 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,200 S1: Court of Justice. So I'm just wondering, is it about 284 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,000 S1: appealing to people's primal emotions? You know, that people, no 285 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,360 S1: matter where they are, they deserve safety. They deserve dignity. 286 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,960 S1: They deserve humanity. Like, how can we appeal to people? 287 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,880 S1: Because for whatever fact you give, there's going to be 288 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,239 S1: a counter fact, right? Like I often find that devolves 289 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,440 S1: into chaos and recriminations. Do you? 290 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,840 S2: Yeah, yeah, up to up to a point. I mean, 291 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,680 S2: to come back to link that question to the previous question. 292 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,480 S2: I've ended a number of relationships and friendships because of 293 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:49,560 S2: positions adopted by people in relation to this particular conflict. 294 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,720 S2: October the 7th and subsequently. I have no truck with 295 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,080 S2: extremist views on either side. People who fail to have 296 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,120 S2: a position of empathy for any person of innocence who 297 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,040 S2: gets caught up in this horror, whether it is the 298 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,600 S2: people who were lined up and executed on October the 7th, 299 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:10,879 S2: or the people in Gaza who are on the receiving 300 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,000 S2: end of the horrors that are continuing. And so, for example, 301 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,840 S2: when one former colleague of mine tries to say to 302 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,920 S2: me that what happened on October the 7th was not 303 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,240 S2: an act of execution or murder, people just got caught 304 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,200 S2: in the crossfire. I haven't spoken to that person since. 305 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,560 S2: I just I don't want to engage with those kinds 306 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,760 S2: of views on either side. I will, you know, they 307 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,440 S2: want to have those views. I'm not going to change 308 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,320 S2: those views. I'll stick to my to my position. And 309 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,400 S2: I think that the way I've managed to go through, 310 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,840 S2: as I said, is with a roadmap. Um, you know, 311 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,840 S2: the argument, frankly, that what happened at the International Court 312 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,240 S2: of Justice on self-determination and Palestine is illegitimate. It's just 313 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,960 S2: it's just a nonsense. It's an absolute nonsense. I go 314 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,160 S2: back to a conversation that I had, um, in relation 315 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,159 S2: to another case. I'm involved as counsel right now in 316 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,320 S2: the case brought by the Gambia against Myanmar in relation 317 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,280 S2: to the allegations of genocide in relation to the Rohingya. Um, 318 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,960 S2: a community in Myanmar. And five years ago, I was 319 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,359 S2: involved in the first aspect of that case, and I 320 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:22,800 S2: was on a panel in, uh, uh, George Washington University 321 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,399 S2: in Washington, DC with a former American judge at the 322 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,320 S2: International Court of Justice, a wonderful man called Thomas Bergendahl, 323 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,440 S2: who's written, incidentally, for your listeners, an extraordinary book called 324 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,750 S2: A Lucky Child, A Book of great humanity. Tom Bergendahl, 325 00:18:36,390 --> 00:18:39,710 S2: at the age of ten, was at Auschwitz and was 326 00:18:39,710 --> 00:18:43,550 S2: under the care of a medical doctor called Josef Mengele. 327 00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:46,590 S2: So Thomas Bergendahl knows what it means to be on 328 00:18:46,590 --> 00:18:49,629 S2: the receiving end of horror. And he said to me, 329 00:18:49,670 --> 00:18:51,709 S2: can you imagine, Philippe, this is in relation to the 330 00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:55,830 S2: Rohingya case at the international court. If in 1944, when 331 00:18:55,830 --> 00:18:58,149 S2: I was in Auschwitz, there had been a piece of 332 00:18:58,150 --> 00:19:02,070 S2: paper called a convention on crimes against humanity or genocide 333 00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:04,909 S2: or against torture or whatever, and there had been an 334 00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:09,670 S2: international court and a faraway country had gone to that 335 00:19:09,670 --> 00:19:15,110 S2: international court and said, Germany, you cannot treat people in 336 00:19:15,109 --> 00:19:17,830 S2: this way. He wasn't drawing an analogy, but he was 337 00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:21,870 S2: basically saying the existence of these institutions and these obligations 338 00:19:21,869 --> 00:19:25,750 S2: under international law, which came out of the horrors of 339 00:19:25,790 --> 00:19:28,990 S2: the 1940s, would have given us hope. They may not 340 00:19:28,990 --> 00:19:33,950 S2: have changed the situation and institutions, and the idea and 341 00:19:33,950 --> 00:19:37,270 S2: the ideal of the rule of law offers another way 342 00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:40,990 S2: of going. And I think that is the message that 343 00:19:40,990 --> 00:19:44,270 S2: is extremely important for me. You know, in that case, 344 00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:48,030 S2: in the hearings in the, in The Hague, uh, I 345 00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:51,270 S2: was for Gambia against Myanmar. I sat literally next to 346 00:19:51,310 --> 00:19:55,790 S2: an San Suu Kyi who was leading the case for Myanmar, 347 00:19:55,830 --> 00:19:59,230 S2: the former Nobel Peace Prize winner. She was the agent 348 00:19:59,230 --> 00:20:02,030 S2: of Myanmar, and I didn't like much that she said 349 00:20:02,030 --> 00:20:04,510 S2: that day. But one thing she said that really has 350 00:20:04,510 --> 00:20:07,630 S2: stayed with me. She said, Mr. President, members of the court, 351 00:20:08,910 --> 00:20:11,310 S2: we don't agree on much. But one thing is clear. 352 00:20:11,470 --> 00:20:14,630 S2: The only language we have in common is the language 353 00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:18,030 S2: of international law. And I thought that was very interesting. 354 00:20:18,030 --> 00:20:23,189 S2: And that is emblematic of, I think, my approach to 355 00:20:23,230 --> 00:20:24,070 S2: the way forward. 356 00:20:24,750 --> 00:20:28,230 S1: That's fascinating. And I guess I wanted to ask you, 357 00:20:28,430 --> 00:20:30,630 S1: you know, you've worked in this space as a barrister. 358 00:20:30,750 --> 00:20:33,870 S1: you've researched the history of various crimes against humanity. I'd 359 00:20:33,869 --> 00:20:35,750 S1: love to know your long view. You know, do the 360 00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:39,230 S1: perpetrators of hideous crimes against people, whether it's Jewish people 361 00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:43,030 S1: or Palestinians or Chileans, do the perpetrators of these crimes 362 00:20:43,030 --> 00:20:45,470 S1: more often than not meet their justice? 363 00:20:45,510 --> 00:20:49,670 S2: No they don't. And it's rare for the former head 364 00:20:49,670 --> 00:20:52,510 S2: of state who's committed crimes to get the tap on 365 00:20:52,510 --> 00:20:56,750 S2: the shoulder. That is what happened to Augusto Pinochet. And 366 00:20:56,750 --> 00:20:59,230 S2: that is what is so remarkable about that story. It 367 00:20:59,230 --> 00:21:01,830 S2: was the first time in human history that a former 368 00:21:01,830 --> 00:21:04,270 S2: head of state of one country is arrested in the 369 00:21:04,270 --> 00:21:08,550 S2: territory of another country for international crimes committed elsewhere. I've 370 00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:11,350 S2: said this. I think many times the idea of justice, 371 00:21:11,350 --> 00:21:15,710 S2: both domestically and internationally, is a long game, and we're 372 00:21:15,710 --> 00:21:17,790 S2: in it for the long run. You can't imagine that 373 00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:20,350 S2: in 1945, these new rules were created, and then all 374 00:21:20,350 --> 00:21:23,109 S2: of a sudden, everyone keels over and says, oh, yes, absolutely. 375 00:21:23,109 --> 00:21:25,990 S2: I'm going to comply with all these new obligations. Life 376 00:21:25,990 --> 00:21:29,510 S2: just isn't like that. I take my cue from my 377 00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:32,750 S2: favorite poet singer in the whole world. Someone I listen 378 00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:34,190 S2: to every single day. 379 00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:37,510 S1: I'm going to guess you can. Leonard Cohen, Leonard Cohen. 380 00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:39,629 S1: I knew it only because I read an interview with you, 381 00:21:39,630 --> 00:21:41,350 S1: and I think you were playing anthem. 382 00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:44,550 S2: Yes. And it is a line from anthem. There is 383 00:21:44,550 --> 00:21:48,030 S2: a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in. 384 00:21:49,630 --> 00:21:53,510 S2: It's the line that guides me. It's the line that 385 00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:57,190 S2: keeps us going in the darkest of times, even right now, 386 00:21:57,390 --> 00:22:02,310 S2: as we see on the ground in Gaza, images of 387 00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:06,350 S2: apparent starvation, which are, I think, very painful for all 388 00:22:06,350 --> 00:22:10,270 S2: people of good faith and decency. We just have to 389 00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:13,190 S2: keep going, even though it's difficult and even though it's 390 00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:17,470 S2: unlikely very often that the rules themselves, whether it's October 391 00:22:17,470 --> 00:22:20,710 S2: the 7th or subsequently, whether it's Sudan, whether it's Ukraine, 392 00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:22,830 S2: whether it's many other places in the world that the 393 00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:27,110 S2: rules themselves will not, with immediate effect, stop the horrors. 394 00:22:27,310 --> 00:22:29,740 S2: But they provide a modicum of hope. 395 00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:35,180 S1: It has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you. Thank 396 00:22:35,180 --> 00:22:37,100 S1: you so much for your time. 397 00:22:37,220 --> 00:22:40,300 S2: Oh thank you. I've really enjoyed the conversation so beautifully. 398 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:41,100 S2: Well prepared. 399 00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:47,900 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself 400 00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:51,180 S1: and Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. 401 00:22:51,619 --> 00:22:54,179 S1: To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, 402 00:22:54,180 --> 00:22:57,739 S1: follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you 403 00:22:57,740 --> 00:23:02,060 S1: listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so 404 00:23:02,060 --> 00:23:08,100 S1: to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. 405 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:10,340 S1: And to stay up to date, sign up to our 406 00:23:10,340 --> 00:23:12,900 S1: Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's 407 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:17,139 S1: most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are 408 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:21,540 S1: in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.