1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,240 S1: The violence that unfolded outside Sydney Town Hall on Monday 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:17,920 S1: night was ugly. Protesters were punched, kicked and trampled as 3 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,480 S1: they tried to breach a police line. Thousands of demonstrators 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,520 S1: were crushed together as capsicum spray was deployed indiscriminately at 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,720 S1: close range. Dozens were arrested and several police officers were 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,879 S1: allegedly assaulted. People were there to protest a visit to 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,599 S1: Australia from Israeli President Isaac Herzog, who was in the 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,880 S1: country following the Bondi terror attack, with more protests anticipated 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,200 S1: in Canberra and Melbourne. I'm Samantha Selinger, Morris, and you're 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,839 S1: listening to the Morning Edition from The Age and the 11 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,360 S1: Sydney Morning Herald today, chief reporter Chip Le Grand on 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:01:02,920 S1: whether Isaac Herzog's visit will further divide the country. So, Chip, 13 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,640 S1: let's just start off with how this trip came about, 14 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,160 S1: because as you've just written, there are deep generational ties 15 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,759 S1: between the head of the Zionist Federation of Australia and 16 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,640 S1: the president of Israel and his family, which I imagine 17 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,440 S1: most listeners like myself would have had no idea about 18 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:20,880 S1: before reading your piece. Right. 19 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,800 S2: So the the Herzog family, I mean, between Isaac Herzog, 20 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,840 S2: the president who's now in Australia, and his father Haim, 21 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,880 S2: who was also a president of Israel, I mean, basically, 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,160 S2: between the two of them, it spans the entire history 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,679 S2: of Israel's existence as a as a modern state. His son, 24 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,800 S2: Isaac Herzog, so he worked he was a lawyer, um, uh, 25 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,920 S2: by profession. He was, uh, elected to the Knesset, the 26 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,200 S2: Israeli parliament, uh, back in 2003. He served for a 27 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,640 S2: long time. At one point, he led he was a 28 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,040 S2: leader of the Labor Party, the leader of the opposition. 29 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:04,470 S2: And his his portfolios really, uh, were it was about, um, 30 00:02:04,510 --> 00:02:07,510 S2: it was a minister for Diaspora Affairs. He was the 31 00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:10,790 S2: Minister for Welfare and Social Services. At one point. He 32 00:02:10,790 --> 00:02:13,510 S2: was the government coordinator for for provision of aid that 33 00:02:13,510 --> 00:02:16,630 S2: was going into Gaza in 2008 and 2009, which was 34 00:02:16,630 --> 00:02:20,550 S2: pretty shortly after Hamas took over. So if if you 35 00:02:20,550 --> 00:02:23,670 S2: look at the trajectory of his working life, it's really 36 00:02:23,710 --> 00:02:28,230 S2: sort of a classic left of centre, uh, social reformer. 37 00:02:28,550 --> 00:02:33,109 S2: So back to his father. He was, um, very active 38 00:02:33,110 --> 00:02:35,590 S2: in the, in the World Zionist Organisation at the same 39 00:02:35,590 --> 00:02:39,790 S2: time that Mark Leibler, who previously ran the Zionist Federation 40 00:02:39,950 --> 00:02:43,150 S2: of Australia, was he was like a young delegate, Australian 41 00:02:43,150 --> 00:02:46,470 S2: delegate to that, um, to the point where um Haim 42 00:02:46,470 --> 00:02:49,669 S2: Herzog used to drive uh, Mark Leibler to delegate meetings 43 00:02:49,669 --> 00:02:51,830 S2: and this sort of thing. The ties between the family 44 00:02:51,870 --> 00:02:56,269 S2: stretches back three generations. And so after the Bondi massacre, 45 00:02:56,870 --> 00:02:59,389 S2: one of the first calls that Jeremy Leibler received and 46 00:02:59,389 --> 00:03:05,030 S2: Jeremy's now the Zionist Federation of Australia president um, was 47 00:03:05,030 --> 00:03:09,310 S2: from Isaac Herzog, who was very much, as you can imagine, 48 00:03:09,350 --> 00:03:10,710 S2: that was still at a time when we were trying 49 00:03:10,710 --> 00:03:12,430 S2: to people were trying to find out what had gone 50 00:03:12,470 --> 00:03:15,669 S2: on and Bondi and how many people were being killed 51 00:03:15,669 --> 00:03:19,829 S2: and how bad it was. And, um, and Herzog just 52 00:03:19,830 --> 00:03:21,830 S2: caught up with a very basic message that, look, we're 53 00:03:21,830 --> 00:03:25,910 S2: here for you. Um, anything you need, you just tell us. 54 00:03:26,150 --> 00:03:29,430 S2: And it was really from that conversation that the idea 55 00:03:29,430 --> 00:03:32,709 S2: was planted in Jeremy Lieber's mind that, um, it might 56 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:37,350 S2: be a really, uh, good thing for Jewish people here if, um, 57 00:03:37,390 --> 00:03:40,830 S2: Isaac Herzog was to was to visit as, um, as 58 00:03:40,830 --> 00:03:44,310 S2: the president of Israel and, and, uh, come here and 59 00:03:44,310 --> 00:03:46,510 S2: extend his condolences to victims of Bondi. 60 00:03:47,030 --> 00:03:48,869 S1: And we're going to get into, of course, how his 61 00:03:48,870 --> 00:03:51,990 S1: visit has played out so far because it has been, uh, 62 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:54,550 S1: explosive in many ways. But first off, can you just 63 00:03:54,550 --> 00:03:57,550 S1: explain for us, you know, Herzog's position this is Isaac 64 00:03:57,550 --> 00:04:01,750 S1: Herzog's position has been described as being a non-political head 65 00:04:01,750 --> 00:04:05,300 S1: of state. He's very notably not the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, 66 00:04:05,580 --> 00:04:08,020 S1: of course, but he is the president. And this is 67 00:04:08,020 --> 00:04:10,540 S1: meant to be akin to our governor general. Is this 68 00:04:10,540 --> 00:04:13,980 S1: the case? Is he very much in action, a non-political 69 00:04:13,980 --> 00:04:14,700 S1: head of state? 70 00:04:15,540 --> 00:04:17,820 S2: He is a he is a political head of state. 71 00:04:17,820 --> 00:04:19,620 S2: I don't think it's quite like the governor general. The 72 00:04:19,620 --> 00:04:22,140 S2: big difference being that he was elected. So he did. 73 00:04:22,180 --> 00:04:25,739 S2: He's got a popular mandate. He was elected as as president. 74 00:04:25,740 --> 00:04:29,460 S2: And he does have some executive powers that say, for example, 75 00:04:29,500 --> 00:04:33,260 S2: our governor general doesn't have I think it probably the best, um, 76 00:04:33,900 --> 00:04:37,300 S2: parallel is maybe the Irish president, a very similar role, 77 00:04:37,420 --> 00:04:41,540 S2: directly elected, but a, um, very much a more of 78 00:04:41,540 --> 00:04:46,020 S2: a ceremonial, um, head of state. And so this goes down, 79 00:04:46,420 --> 00:04:51,539 S2: gets down to, um, I guess the tensions inherent in, 80 00:04:51,580 --> 00:04:55,140 S2: in Herzog's position because he is um, so he's from 81 00:04:55,140 --> 00:04:58,539 S2: the Labour tradition. He is much more left leaning than 82 00:04:58,540 --> 00:05:02,540 S2: the current Israeli government. He's he's very much a two 83 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:07,220 S2: state solution guy through his whole life. He's believed that 84 00:05:07,220 --> 00:05:11,460 S2: that's the, um, that ultimately there has to be a 85 00:05:11,460 --> 00:05:15,340 S2: way for for a Jewish state and a Palestinian state 86 00:05:15,380 --> 00:05:18,780 S2: to coexist. But he has also said and he and 87 00:05:18,779 --> 00:05:21,500 S2: he said so in the interview that he did with, um, um, 88 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:26,339 S2: our reporters, Matthew Knight and Peter Hartcher over the weekend that, um, 89 00:05:26,540 --> 00:05:31,380 S2: that October 7th, um, like so many, um, Jews around 90 00:05:31,380 --> 00:05:35,340 S2: the world, it's really shaken his belief in not so 91 00:05:35,339 --> 00:05:37,260 S2: much the theory of a two state solution, but the 92 00:05:37,260 --> 00:05:39,740 S2: practicalities of it and whether it's really plausible to be 93 00:05:39,779 --> 00:05:43,380 S2: even talking about it. Um, right now. So the what's 94 00:05:43,380 --> 00:05:46,660 S2: that meant? Is that in his position as, as president, like, 95 00:05:46,660 --> 00:05:51,060 S2: he really hasn't weighed in very often into either domestic 96 00:05:51,060 --> 00:05:54,900 S2: or international, uh, political issues. And this is, this is 97 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:58,859 S2: there's been criticism, particularly from the left of that and 98 00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:02,420 S2: even predating October 7th. But he just didn't see that 99 00:06:03,420 --> 00:06:07,620 S2: is his job, and particularly after October 7th, he's felt 100 00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:11,340 S2: like whether or not he personally agrees with all the 101 00:06:11,339 --> 00:06:13,860 S2: policies of the Netanyahu government, he's not there to run 102 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:16,940 S2: in opposition against them. He's there to be an apolitical 103 00:06:16,940 --> 00:06:19,180 S2: head of state, and he and he's stuck to that script. 104 00:06:21,060 --> 00:06:22,660 S3: And let's get into. 105 00:06:22,700 --> 00:06:25,300 S1: Of course, his visit to Australia, because as soon as 106 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:29,140 S1: this visit was announced, there was immediate criticism, particularly in 107 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:31,860 S1: relation to the war in Gaza. A UN commission of 108 00:06:31,860 --> 00:06:35,500 S1: inquiry said it could be, quote, reasonably interpreted, unquote, that 109 00:06:35,500 --> 00:06:40,619 S1: Isaac Herzog incited genocide by making the statement that all Palestinians, quote, 110 00:06:40,660 --> 00:06:44,180 S1: an entire nation, unquote, are responsible for the Hamas attack 111 00:06:44,180 --> 00:06:47,020 S1: on October 7th. Now, we know that Herzog has said 112 00:06:47,020 --> 00:06:49,219 S1: that his words were taken out of context. And he 113 00:06:49,220 --> 00:06:51,940 S1: also said that there was, quote, no excuse for murdering 114 00:06:51,940 --> 00:06:56,140 S1: innocent civilians, unquote. But clarify for us what is Isaac 115 00:06:56,140 --> 00:07:00,100 S1: Herzog's position on Gaza and the war and Palestinians? 116 00:07:00,779 --> 00:07:04,250 S2: Well, if we go back to what he said. And 117 00:07:04,250 --> 00:07:07,090 S2: I think the timing of this is important. So this 118 00:07:07,089 --> 00:07:11,090 S2: is this is a comments that he made that Isaac 119 00:07:11,090 --> 00:07:14,290 S2: Herzog made in a, in a press briefing, um, on 120 00:07:14,290 --> 00:07:19,130 S2: October 13th, 2023. So this is six days after the 121 00:07:19,130 --> 00:07:23,890 S2: Hamas atrocities, the greatest loss of Jewish life, um, since 122 00:07:23,890 --> 00:07:28,050 S2: the Holocaust. And he did say in responding to a 123 00:07:28,050 --> 00:07:30,410 S2: question that I think this is, again, important, the question 124 00:07:30,410 --> 00:07:35,010 S2: he was asked. Well, what happens is quite a prescient question. Right? 125 00:07:35,010 --> 00:07:39,290 S2: You're starting this, you're launching this military campaign in, in Gaza. 126 00:07:39,970 --> 00:07:44,770 S2: But what happens? The question went when when the the 127 00:07:44,810 --> 00:07:48,050 S2: civilian deaths and the deaths of innocent people in, in 128 00:07:48,530 --> 00:07:52,170 S2: Gaza gets to the point where, uh, international opinion really 129 00:07:52,170 --> 00:07:55,290 S2: turns against Israel about about what you're doing, what what 130 00:07:55,290 --> 00:07:58,010 S2: are you going to do then and in that's that's 131 00:07:58,010 --> 00:08:01,650 S2: when in response to that, he said, you know, it's 132 00:08:01,650 --> 00:08:04,730 S2: an entire nation out there that is responsible. It is 133 00:08:04,730 --> 00:08:07,210 S2: not true, this rhetoric about civilians who were not aware 134 00:08:07,250 --> 00:08:09,730 S2: and not involved. It is absolutely not true. They could 135 00:08:09,770 --> 00:08:12,250 S2: have risen up. They could have fought against that evil 136 00:08:12,250 --> 00:08:16,170 S2: regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat. And 137 00:08:16,170 --> 00:08:18,890 S2: it was on the on the basis of that comment 138 00:08:19,850 --> 00:08:22,770 S2: that the Independent International Commission of Inquiry of the Occupied 139 00:08:22,770 --> 00:08:28,050 S2: Palestinian Territory, which was established by the UN's Human Rights Council, 140 00:08:28,250 --> 00:08:32,050 S2: that they they found that that amounted to an incitement 141 00:08:32,050 --> 00:08:39,690 S2: to genocide. Now, in the same briefing, Herzog said other things, um, 142 00:08:39,690 --> 00:08:42,250 S2: he pointed out that the world had seen the so 143 00:08:42,290 --> 00:08:46,250 S2: the worst atrocity committed in in quite some time. Um, 144 00:08:46,290 --> 00:08:50,490 S2: but he also emphasized, uh, the following. He said, we 145 00:08:50,490 --> 00:08:53,290 S2: are very cautious in the way we operate. The IDF 146 00:08:53,330 --> 00:08:56,050 S2: uses all means at its disposal in order to reduce 147 00:08:56,050 --> 00:09:00,050 S2: harm to the population, but Israel will defend its people 148 00:09:00,050 --> 00:09:02,770 S2: and do whatever it takes with an iron fist to 149 00:09:02,809 --> 00:09:08,560 S2: change the reality. So in a sense, he was unapologetic 150 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,360 S2: for what Israel was about to do in Gaza. But 151 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,320 S2: at the same time, he was trying to draw a 152 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,240 S2: distinction about who they were targeting. And this is why 153 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,400 S2: Herzog now says, well, that that particular line that I 154 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,160 S2: said about an entire people being responsible, that is taken 155 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,160 S2: out of context, it is more complicated than that. And 156 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,679 S2: whatever your view about whether this this could reasonably amount 157 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,080 S2: to an incitement to genocide, I think I think people 158 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,199 S2: can appreciate that the sort of complexity complexity with, with, 159 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,520 S2: with what Israel was dealing with at the time. 160 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:43,160 S1: After the break. 161 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,680 S2: No, I think I think that completely misreads what's going 162 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,000 S2: on here. There isn't it hasn't shifted an iota. 163 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,320 S1: It is very complex. But I would be remiss if 164 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,160 S1: I didn't mention the other incident that has provoked international condemnation, 165 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,200 S1: which you definitely wrote about in your piece, which is 166 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,920 S1: that Isaac Herzog scrawled a message on an IDF artillery 167 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,640 S1: shell to be used in Israel's military campaign in Gaza. 168 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,880 S1: This was about two months after the October 7th attack. 169 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,760 S1: This was in December 2023. And he scrolled on that 170 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,680 S1: artillery shell. I rely on you. So that again, I 171 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,199 S1: guess complicates things. But do we know further, I guess, 172 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,120 S1: what his position on Gaza in the war in Palestinians 173 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,920 S1: is beyond what you've said. Because, you know, you've mentioned 174 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,680 S1: that he's a left wing social reformer. But there are 175 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,760 S1: those that say that, sure, within the context of Israel, 176 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,120 S1: maybe he's a left wing social reformer, but that that 177 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,160 S1: is not nearly as left as it might be, say, 178 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,160 S1: in other parts of the world. You know, perhaps he's 179 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:54,040 S1: just left wing in the context of the government currently 180 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,720 S1: reigning in Israel, which is extremely far right. 181 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,520 S2: Well, we can we can really only judge him by 182 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,840 S2: by what he's what he's said and done and really 183 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,040 S2: in the, in the, in the, in the two years 184 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,000 S2: and a bit um since October 7th, there hasn't been 185 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,400 S2: any distance between Isaac Herzog and the Netanyahu government in 186 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,360 S2: terms of, um, what they've said publicly about the conduct 187 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,200 S2: of the, of the war in Gaza. So his position 188 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,280 S2: as Israel's president is very much in support of, of 189 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,840 S2: the of the military campaign, um, the need to, uh, 190 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:33,640 S2: destroy Hamas and, um, and so there's there's no there's 191 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,320 S2: been no inkling of him holding a, a differing view or, 192 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:40,960 S2: or being a critic of how of how the, um, 193 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,319 S2: the IDF has gone about, um, its operations in Gaza. 194 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:47,120 S3: And so let's get to what. 195 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,400 S1: Isaac Herzog's visit actually means to the victims of Bondi 196 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,720 S1: and their families. Why is it important? 197 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,079 S2: Well, I think there's a couple of levels for this. 198 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,920 S2: I mean, immediately for the and we saw the the 199 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:05,030 S2: scenes in, uh, Sydney when Herzog, um, met, That, uh, 200 00:12:05,470 --> 00:12:08,790 S2: the families of of Bundy victims and and spoke to 201 00:12:08,830 --> 00:12:14,109 S2: them and, I mean, there's there's just that immediate consoling. 202 00:12:14,110 --> 00:12:18,390 S2: There's that comfort, um, that comes from the head of 203 00:12:18,390 --> 00:12:22,670 S2: the Jewish state, uh, coming all the way to Australia 204 00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:26,750 S2: at a broader level, I think it's also, uh, something else, 205 00:12:26,750 --> 00:12:30,510 S2: because there have been there's significant policy differences, probably more 206 00:12:30,510 --> 00:12:34,910 S2: so at any time in, in kind of living memory 207 00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:39,430 S2: between the Australian government and the Israeli government. Um, the 208 00:12:39,429 --> 00:12:42,790 S2: the most significant one was when the Australian government decided 209 00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:47,630 S2: to recognize the State of Palestine. And, you know, Netanyahu 210 00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:51,750 S2: was absolutely scathing of, of, uh, Anthony Albanese, uh, for 211 00:12:51,790 --> 00:12:55,429 S2: that decision, saying that he's, uh, that he's a weak leader. 212 00:12:55,470 --> 00:12:59,309 S2: He's been very critical of the the way that the 213 00:12:59,350 --> 00:13:02,550 S2: that the labor government here has, has handled the rise 214 00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:09,070 S2: in anti-Semitism. So there's all sorts of serious disagreements between 215 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:13,110 S2: Australia and New Zealand at a governmental level about not 216 00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:15,830 S2: just the war in Gaza, but the settlement policies in, 217 00:13:16,070 --> 00:13:18,830 S2: in the West Bank and the and the best way 218 00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:25,270 S2: forward to try to resolve this seemingly sort of intractable, um, dispute. 219 00:13:25,950 --> 00:13:29,350 S2: But what Herzog coming here does is send a message 220 00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:33,550 S2: that or reinforce the idea that on another level, a 221 00:13:33,550 --> 00:13:41,069 S2: level that's above those disagreements, that there is still this inherent, um, uh, 222 00:13:41,270 --> 00:13:45,670 S2: link and relationship between Israel and Australia, which really goes 223 00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:48,950 S2: back to, to very much the, um, the, the time 224 00:13:48,950 --> 00:13:53,310 S2: when Israel was established. And it's important for, uh, many 225 00:13:53,309 --> 00:13:56,589 S2: Jewish Australians to hear that message and get have that 226 00:13:56,590 --> 00:14:01,350 S2: reinforced here because over, over the past few years, there 227 00:14:01,350 --> 00:14:03,469 S2: have been times when they've been left wondering, they've been 228 00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:07,380 S2: left wondering, well, what does Australia still support the idea 229 00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:09,980 S2: of Israel? Do we still think that they have a 230 00:14:09,980 --> 00:14:12,300 S2: that there is a place for a Jewish state? And 231 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:15,340 S2: so in, in a lot of ways, I think the, the, 232 00:14:15,340 --> 00:14:18,620 S2: the trip has that kind of high degree of sort 233 00:14:18,620 --> 00:14:23,979 S2: of symbolic reconnection, um, for Jewish people with Israel. 234 00:14:24,260 --> 00:14:25,500 S3: And do you think it's also perhaps. 235 00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:28,620 S1: A primal comfort for a lot of Jewish Australians? I'm 236 00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:31,060 S1: just thinking of something our colleague Peter Hartcher wrote on 237 00:14:31,060 --> 00:14:33,860 S1: the weekend. He said Jewish Australians are a tiny and 238 00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:37,739 S1: vulnerable minority. They're frightened and frustrated, frightened by the virility 239 00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:40,380 S1: and violence of the Jew hate directed against them for 240 00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:43,460 S1: no fault of their own. Frustrated at the unique unfairness 241 00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:45,980 S1: that they are held somehow responsible for the decisions of 242 00:14:45,980 --> 00:14:49,620 S1: a foreign government. No other people is held to this standard. 243 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:51,940 S1: So do you think it's provided that primal comfort beyond 244 00:14:51,980 --> 00:14:53,900 S1: sort of the symbolic comfort, perhaps? 245 00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:58,820 S2: Oh, well, absolutely. And particularly if if we think of 246 00:14:59,020 --> 00:15:04,540 S2: what happened on, um, December 14th as being not an 247 00:15:04,540 --> 00:15:08,620 S2: awful event in isolation, but the culmination of of Jewish 248 00:15:08,620 --> 00:15:11,100 S2: hatred that had been building in this country for two years. 249 00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:14,980 S2: And so, yes, it absolutely provides that comfort. It's also 250 00:15:14,980 --> 00:15:19,940 S2: a double edged sword because, of course, um, uh, for 251 00:15:19,940 --> 00:15:23,780 S2: the same reasons that that Jewish people living in Australia 252 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:30,260 S2: quite rightly feel, um, uh, feel that it's incredibly unfair 253 00:15:30,780 --> 00:15:34,820 S2: that they are in any way judged for the actions of, of, 254 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:40,060 S2: of Israel and the Israeli government. The difficulty with Herzog 255 00:15:40,420 --> 00:15:43,780 S2: coming as it kind of blurs that distinction. And this 256 00:15:43,780 --> 00:15:47,860 S2: is where Jewish people who don't support the Herzog visit 257 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:51,940 S2: have kind of made that point, that that it conflates 258 00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:55,820 S2: these two things, which is the state of Israel and 259 00:15:55,820 --> 00:16:00,700 S2: the government of Israel and Jewish people in Australia, and 260 00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:02,740 S2: that it's not helpful to them at this point in 261 00:16:02,740 --> 00:16:04,740 S2: time for that to happen. So you've got so the 262 00:16:04,740 --> 00:16:07,420 S2: Jewish Council of Australia, which is a it's a very 263 00:16:07,420 --> 00:16:12,860 S2: small group, self-appointed. It's essentially a pro-Palestinian lobby, um, that's 264 00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:17,140 S2: made up of some prominent, um, uh, Jewish people like, um, 265 00:16:17,180 --> 00:16:22,820 S2: Louise Adler and Josh Bornstein, the lawyer. And so they, 266 00:16:22,820 --> 00:16:27,540 S2: they take this view, um, that Herzog shouldn't be coming here. 267 00:16:28,060 --> 00:16:31,820 S2: They point to what the, um, uh, the UN Commission 268 00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:34,020 S2: found and said that the last thing we should be 269 00:16:34,020 --> 00:16:37,460 S2: doing is, is inviting someone who's been accused of inciting 270 00:16:37,460 --> 00:16:39,540 S2: genocide to visit here and so forth. It's a very 271 00:16:39,540 --> 00:16:45,500 S2: hard line view against the visit. There's there's other, um, uh, 272 00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:49,500 S2: Jewish Australians who've who've talked and written about this, um, 273 00:16:50,340 --> 00:16:54,140 S2: who reflect more on just the, the idea that they're 274 00:16:54,140 --> 00:16:57,340 S2: bloody exhausted, like it's been the whole the last two 275 00:16:57,340 --> 00:16:59,460 S2: years have just been horrendous. And at some point they 276 00:16:59,460 --> 00:17:01,900 S2: just want a break. So look, there's a you know, 277 00:17:01,940 --> 00:17:03,660 S2: as you can imagine, there's a sort of a range 278 00:17:03,660 --> 00:17:04,500 S2: of different views. 279 00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:05,659 S3: And to those who do. 280 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:08,410 S1: Make the point that they're not happy, that our government 281 00:17:08,410 --> 00:17:11,929 S1: has invited a head of state whose political leaders, again, 282 00:17:11,930 --> 00:17:14,689 S1: not Isaac Herzog, but, you know, people like Benjamin Netanyahu, 283 00:17:14,730 --> 00:17:17,410 S1: that they've been indicted by the International court for war 284 00:17:17,410 --> 00:17:20,930 S1: crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza. I did this 285 00:17:20,970 --> 00:17:23,010 S1: actually have to be a state visit. Like, could this 286 00:17:23,010 --> 00:17:26,010 S1: not have been something not sponsored by our government? Would 287 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:28,489 S1: that have helped all of the sort of, you know, 288 00:17:28,490 --> 00:17:30,730 S1: criticism and divisions that we've been seeing? 289 00:17:31,650 --> 00:17:34,090 S2: I don't think so. I think those criticisms would have 290 00:17:34,090 --> 00:17:37,409 S2: been made irrespective. I mean, if Isaac Herzog comes to 291 00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:39,970 S2: this country, there's going to be protests. The arguments are 292 00:17:39,970 --> 00:17:42,410 S2: going to run. I don't think that makes a difference. 293 00:17:42,410 --> 00:17:47,930 S2: But it is interesting that that Anthony Albanese decided to 294 00:17:47,930 --> 00:17:50,810 S2: elevate this to a state visit so that the Zionist 295 00:17:50,810 --> 00:17:55,530 S2: Federation of Australia wanted, um, Herzog to come, issued an 296 00:17:55,530 --> 00:17:58,850 S2: invitation for Herzog to come just on a community level, 297 00:17:58,850 --> 00:18:03,369 S2: to make a community visit. Separately, the Australian government decided 298 00:18:03,369 --> 00:18:06,330 S2: that they would issue their own invitation through the The 299 00:18:06,330 --> 00:18:09,930 S2: Governor-General quite formally to make this a state visit, which 300 00:18:09,930 --> 00:18:11,970 S2: is really the first one that we've had by a 301 00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:15,890 S2: Jewish head of state since Chaim Herzog came here back 302 00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:19,770 S2: in 1986. So this doesn't happen very often. I think 303 00:18:19,770 --> 00:18:23,730 S2: it's really significant that it that it has um, and 304 00:18:23,730 --> 00:18:26,250 S2: there's a there's some sort of formalities that go with this, 305 00:18:26,250 --> 00:18:29,609 S2: but but I think, again, that's an important part of 306 00:18:29,609 --> 00:18:33,690 S2: the message that the Australian government wanted to send about 307 00:18:34,530 --> 00:18:39,730 S2: this visit, but also the that higher level connection and 308 00:18:39,730 --> 00:18:43,770 S2: support that Australia has always had and continues to have 309 00:18:43,770 --> 00:18:44,450 S2: for Israel. 310 00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:47,370 S1: Well, this is so interesting because I wanted to ask 311 00:18:47,369 --> 00:18:50,530 S1: you whether you think, you know, this state sponsored visit 312 00:18:50,570 --> 00:18:53,330 S1: signals any shift in the position from the Albanese government 313 00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:57,250 S1: on Gaza and Palestine. There's been a variety of perspectives 314 00:18:57,450 --> 00:19:00,450 S1: analysis on this out there. I know that Laura Tingle, 315 00:19:00,490 --> 00:19:03,170 S1: the ABC's global affairs editor, just said that. Yeah, she 316 00:19:03,170 --> 00:19:07,960 S1: thinks that this does signify a shift. Others disagree. What 317 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:08,800 S1: do you think, Chip? 318 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,120 S2: No, I think I think they're completely misread. Misreads. What's 319 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,520 S2: going on here? There isn't. It hasn't shifted an iota. Um, 320 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:25,440 S2: Israel Australia's, um, uh, disagreements with with Israel, um, remain 321 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,200 S2: serious and unchanged about the conduct of the war, about 322 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,080 S2: their settlement policies in the West Bank, about the future 323 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,200 S2: of a Palestinian state. I mean, we are fundamentally at 324 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,320 S2: odds with Israel about very important matters. This doesn't signal 325 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,960 S2: a change in that at all. Rather, what it what 326 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:49,200 S2: it says is that despite those differences, that high level 327 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,720 S2: support and connection between the two countries still remains strong. 328 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,600 S1: And you posed a really interesting question in your piece 329 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,600 S1: over the weekend that the visit to a conflict weary 330 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,440 S1: Australia would either salve the wounds of Bondi or open 331 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,960 S1: fresh ones. So where do you think the dial sits 332 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,159 S1: at the moment as as we're discussing this, you know, 333 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:10,880 S1: has this visit been worth it? 334 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,000 S2: Well, of course, it's, um, we're speaking on a Tuesday, 335 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,480 S2: and he's only. And he's only been here for a 336 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,639 S2: little bit over 24 hours. Um, he's going to spend, uh, 337 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:26,160 S2: the rest of Tuesday in Sydney. In Wednesday, he'll go 338 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,280 S2: to Canberra, um, for for both some formal engagements and 339 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,520 S2: some more intimate ones, uh, with the Prime minister. And 340 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:39,000 S2: then on Thursday, he's in Melbourne. And one of the 341 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,399 S2: events that they're running in Melbourne is a is a, 342 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,760 S2: a large community event, uh, similar to what we've just 343 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,359 S2: seen in Sydney, where we'll have, uh, lots of people 344 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,840 S2: from the Jewish community, including children from Jewish schools and 345 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,160 S2: so forth, will come together and get a chance to, um, 346 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,800 S2: to meet and listen to, uh, the Israeli president. I 347 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,440 S2: think everyone understands that the Israeli president, his visit is 348 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,760 S2: always going to, uh, prompt protests. And in a sense, 349 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,560 S2: it's it's legitimate for people. And if you're ever going 350 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,840 S2: to protest the fact that the Israeli president here, it's 351 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,239 S2: it's that's that's as good a reason as any, you 352 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,640 S2: would think. But, um, it would be awful if you 353 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,960 S2: had a situation where protesters are heckling just ordinary Jewish 354 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,040 S2: people and with their kids and their mums and dads 355 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,919 S2: as there is, they're trying to get into a community event, um, 356 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,320 S2: to listen to a head of state who's here basically 357 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,680 S2: on a bit of a mission of consolation. And if 358 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,960 S2: it doesn't, I think that that on balance, it will 359 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,080 S2: have been a good thing for, um, for Jewish people 360 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:50,080 S2: and indeed for Australia's, um, relationship with Israel for this 361 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:50,880 S2: to have happened. 362 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,600 S1: I mean, it's interesting just that one comment you said 363 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,120 S1: there that, you know, if there was ever a time 364 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,600 S1: to protest, it would be when the Israeli president comes. 365 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,760 S1: And I think that sort of strikes at the heart 366 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,000 S1: of why this is so explosive, because, of course, for 367 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,280 S1: some people that's absolutely rock solid. True for them, right? Like, 368 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,840 S1: of course you're going to protest if you're unhappy with 369 00:22:07,950 --> 00:22:10,270 S1: what's happened in Gaza. Of course, it's a no brainer. 370 00:22:10,270 --> 00:22:13,190 S1: You'll protest when the Israeli president comes. But of course, 371 00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:15,710 S1: for many people in the Jewish community, it's quite the opposite, right? 372 00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:18,230 S1: They think I know that. I've definitely heard from people 373 00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:23,189 S1: who say, like, we are mourning in the aftermath of 374 00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:26,390 S1: this horrific terror attack, which has changed our lives forever. 375 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:29,830 S1: Can we not just have this one time when, you know, 376 00:22:29,869 --> 00:22:32,510 S1: we're getting some consolation in our grief and this doesn't 377 00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:34,710 S1: become political? So this is kind of the heart, I think, 378 00:22:34,750 --> 00:22:37,150 S1: as to why this is perhaps so intractable. 379 00:22:37,950 --> 00:22:40,630 S2: Yeah. Look at, you know, it'd be nice to think 380 00:22:40,630 --> 00:22:43,469 S2: if if that could happen. But I think the, the 381 00:22:43,470 --> 00:22:47,469 S2: practical reality is it's the, um, it's the head of 382 00:22:47,470 --> 00:22:50,949 S2: a state of a nation that's been engaged in a, 383 00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:55,230 S2: in an awful war, um, and a war that's really 384 00:22:55,230 --> 00:22:59,510 S2: been brought directly into, um, in our consciousness with, with 385 00:22:59,550 --> 00:23:02,909 S2: the just the images coming across our, our phones. And, 386 00:23:03,470 --> 00:23:06,550 S2: I mean, these images are for the most part, they're 387 00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:11,070 S2: they're true. It's what's happening. It's awful. But also, I 388 00:23:11,109 --> 00:23:14,070 S2: wonder whether our kind of brains are really wired to 389 00:23:14,109 --> 00:23:18,110 S2: even digest this. I mean, people aren't. I mean, for 390 00:23:18,109 --> 00:23:20,350 S2: people who. This is all. They've looked this all the time. 391 00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:21,869 S2: It's like they it's like they've been living in a 392 00:23:21,869 --> 00:23:24,189 S2: war zone for two years. And I think that and 393 00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:27,190 S2: that comes with it. It's almost like a radicalizing impact 394 00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:29,429 S2: that that's had. And I think that maybe helps to 395 00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:34,550 S2: explain why. Why, yes. If the different camps were talking 396 00:23:35,030 --> 00:23:37,710 S2: then maybe there might be some there might be some 397 00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:41,350 S2: sort of shared empathy where the protest movement would think, okay, 398 00:23:41,630 --> 00:23:44,110 S2: we feel we feel that we're that this is a 399 00:23:44,109 --> 00:23:46,990 S2: just cause. But maybe now isn't the right time. But 400 00:23:46,990 --> 00:23:49,710 S2: there isn't that empathy. There isn't that communication. The camps 401 00:23:49,710 --> 00:23:52,750 S2: are just so polarized now. And that's the real that's 402 00:23:52,750 --> 00:23:54,830 S2: the real shame. And it's kind of reflective of like what? 403 00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:56,750 S2: What a lot of what's going on in national affairs 404 00:23:56,750 --> 00:23:58,230 S2: and international affairs at the moment. 405 00:24:01,070 --> 00:24:03,670 S1: Well, Chip, we're lucky that you're writing on this. So 406 00:24:03,670 --> 00:24:05,270 S1: thank you so much for your time. 407 00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:06,950 S4: No worries. Thanks. 408 00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:18,380 S1: In other news today, Australians are paying the price for 409 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:21,820 S1: second best policies to deal with climate change, according to 410 00:24:21,859 --> 00:24:24,540 S1: the head of the Productivity Commission, who has said that 411 00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:27,379 S1: a carbon tax is still the best way to deal 412 00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:30,980 S1: with climate change. And singer Chappell Roan has become the 413 00:24:30,980 --> 00:24:34,859 S1: first high profile artist to sever ties with Casey Wasserman, 414 00:24:34,940 --> 00:24:38,580 S1: a leading talent agent over Wasserman s ties to Jeffrey Epstein. 415 00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:41,859 S1: Wasserman name appears in the recently released files on the 416 00:24:41,859 --> 00:24:46,500 S1: late convicted pedophile for messages he purportedly sent to Ghislaine Maxwell. 417 00:24:47,540 --> 00:24:51,899 S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer 418 00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:55,460 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 419 00:24:55,460 --> 00:24:59,419 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 420 00:24:59,420 --> 00:25:01,780 S1: the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on 421 00:25:01,780 --> 00:25:04,580 S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.