1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,400 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:09,200 S1: This is inside politics. I am Jacqueline Maley. This week 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,200 S1: we have something a little different. A little pre-Christmas special, 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,880 S1: if you will. Our chief political correspondent, Paul Cicala, is 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,840 S1: here with me in Sydney, and we have a former 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,040 S1: prime minister in the studio with us. He has just 7 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,239 S1: written a book on Australian history called Australia a history, 8 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,040 S1: and he's been spending a lot of time in the 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,120 S1: United States. He's just flown in from the United States, 10 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,640 S1: where he is on the board of Fox Corporation, amongst 11 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,960 S1: other things. Tony Abbott, a very big welcome to Inside Politics. 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,520 S2: Jacqueline, lovely to be with you and Paul. 13 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,160 S1: Now I have before me your tome on Australian history. 14 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,840 S1: It's 400 pages ish. You're a known Anglophile and you're 15 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,239 S1: obviously a big patriot, but few people, I think, would 16 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,040 S1: have expected you to write a book about Australian history, 17 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,360 S1: particularly a book about The Expanse, the entire Australian history. 18 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,720 S1: What made you want to do it and add to 19 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:53,320 S1: the canon? 20 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,040 S2: Well, two reasons I thought it was a more worthwhile 21 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,380 S2: project Then the standard form of politician thing, which is 22 00:01:02,380 --> 00:01:06,740 S2: to write your memoirs. And I absolutely accept that memoirs 23 00:01:06,740 --> 00:01:13,179 S2: can be a valuable addition to our insights into what's happened. 24 00:01:13,540 --> 00:01:17,220 S2: But they do tend to be a little self-serving, and 25 00:01:17,380 --> 00:01:21,220 S2: I thought that I had best let my time in 26 00:01:21,220 --> 00:01:25,259 S2: politics be dealt with by the historians, rather than try 27 00:01:25,260 --> 00:01:30,940 S2: to rehash it all myself. Second reason I think we 28 00:01:30,940 --> 00:01:34,459 S2: have a history to be proud of. It's not perfect, 29 00:01:34,780 --> 00:01:37,700 S2: but it's much more good than bad. And I think 30 00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:43,660 S2: too much recent Australian history has focused on the downside. Now, 31 00:01:43,700 --> 00:01:46,819 S2: maybe to some extent that was a corrective to the 32 00:01:46,819 --> 00:01:50,740 S2: old Three Cheers version that Geoffrey Blainey refers to. But 33 00:01:50,740 --> 00:01:55,500 S2: I really do think we've the pendulum swung way too far. Uh, 34 00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:58,760 S2: to the to the other side And one of the 35 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,760 S2: reasons why I think Australians aren't really studying our own 36 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,680 S2: history much is because they instinctively know that the history 37 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,720 S2: that produced a country as good as ours can't be 38 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,080 S2: all bad. And yet when they delve into it, it 39 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,720 S2: does seem all bad. So they think, well, let's let's 40 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,119 S2: block it out and let's just look forward. But a 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,880 S2: country which does not appreciate itself and does not understand 42 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:29,560 S2: its own past, finds it difficult to adequately understand the 43 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,840 S2: present or to build a good future for itself. 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,040 S1: I really enjoyed the opening chapters on colonial history and 45 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,239 S1: the history of colonial Sydney, and you sort of put 46 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,240 S1: a slightly different cast on our convict past and make 47 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,040 S1: the point that the convicts actually, in many ways had 48 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,600 S1: a better lot than the underclass in Britain, or certainly 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,079 S1: people languishing in prisons in Britain. What do people misunderstand, 50 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,639 S1: do you think about that period of history? 51 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:57,820 S2: Robert Hughes, very widely read and magnificent book, The Fatal Shore, 52 00:02:58,180 --> 00:03:01,940 S2: has colored our perceptions of that time. Now, it's true 53 00:03:01,940 --> 00:03:06,179 S2: that the punishment centers Port Arthur, Norfolk Island, Port Macquarie, 54 00:03:06,220 --> 00:03:10,540 S2: Moreton Bay were pretty horrific. But about 10% of the 55 00:03:10,540 --> 00:03:14,820 S2: convicts ended up in places like that. Um, for the 56 00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:20,419 S2: big majority they got here. Um, they were assigned to 57 00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:24,980 S2: a master, uh, for many of them, it was just 58 00:03:24,980 --> 00:03:30,100 S2: like working in a in a in a pretty normal job. Uh, because, 59 00:03:30,180 --> 00:03:33,180 S2: let's face it, that was the only labor force or 60 00:03:33,460 --> 00:03:36,660 S2: most of the labor force we had back in those days. 61 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:41,700 S2: And so, yes, there was the minority experience of the 62 00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:46,260 S2: fatal shore, so to speak, but much more the majority experience, 63 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:50,340 S2: which I, um, stress in the book, is of convicts 64 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:54,480 S2: riding home, uh, to their kith and kin in Britain saying, 65 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,160 S2: I am actually having a better life here than I 66 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,920 S2: would have had in London. It's interesting. Um. Peacock, the 67 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:08,200 S2: colonial artist responsible for the dust jacket illustration. He was 68 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:16,040 S2: a London lawyer who was convicted, uh, to hang for forgery. 69 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:21,120 S2: It was. It was commuted to life transportation. He ended up, uh, 70 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,480 S2: at Port Macquarie, one of the hellholes of the fatal shore. 71 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,400 S2: His wife and family joined him at Port Macquarie. They 72 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,560 S2: decided they would rather go to Sydney. He got a 73 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:39,640 S2: transfer from the administration at Port Macquarie and he became, 74 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,320 S2: if you like, one of the weather officers at the 75 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,800 S2: South Head weather station. Um, all this happening while he 76 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,640 S2: was actually on a ticket of leave and he became 77 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,220 S2: one of our best colonial artists and an early meteorologist, 78 00:04:53,220 --> 00:05:00,940 S2: as it were. So, I mean, this redemption story characterizes 79 00:05:01,060 --> 00:05:04,660 S2: our early existence. I mean, these were people who were 80 00:05:04,660 --> 00:05:08,859 S2: given a second chance at life, and most of them 81 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:12,620 S2: grabbed it with both hands and succeeded magnificently. 82 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:15,860 S1: Obviously, the cohort of the population that didn't come off 83 00:05:15,860 --> 00:05:19,100 S1: so well from colonization was the indigenous population. And you 84 00:05:19,100 --> 00:05:20,980 S1: deal with the massacres in the book, and you do 85 00:05:21,260 --> 00:05:24,779 S1: take your lead from historians who've covered those extensively. But 86 00:05:24,779 --> 00:05:28,660 S1: your spin on the relations between the early colonizers and 87 00:05:28,660 --> 00:05:31,700 S1: Indigenous Australians is a bit different and a bit more 88 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:34,820 S1: positive than recent times. Tell us about that. 89 00:05:35,740 --> 00:05:40,179 S2: Well, two, two points to make. The first is that officially, 90 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:43,900 S2: there was this constant stress on the fact that the 91 00:05:44,500 --> 00:05:48,300 S2: Aboriginal people of Australia were British subjects with all the 92 00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:51,690 S2: rights of British subjects, and needed to be treated fairly 93 00:05:51,690 --> 00:05:57,130 S2: and properly. That's certainly not what happened routinely on the frontier. 94 00:05:57,370 --> 00:06:03,570 S2: But even on the frontier, it wasn't all oppression, massacre, etc.. 95 00:06:04,250 --> 00:06:08,930 S2: Most of the explorers needed Aboriginal guides to get them 96 00:06:08,930 --> 00:06:12,970 S2: through the territory that was unfamiliar to them, but was 97 00:06:12,970 --> 00:06:18,130 S2: very familiar to the local Aboriginal people. The pastoralists invariably 98 00:06:18,130 --> 00:06:22,930 S2: needed Aboriginal men to work their herds and Aboriginal women 99 00:06:23,290 --> 00:06:26,570 S2: to keep the households going. So it was a story 100 00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:30,570 S2: of cooperation and partnership, as well as a story of 101 00:06:30,730 --> 00:06:36,330 S2: conflict and confrontation. So again, I just think we need 102 00:06:36,330 --> 00:06:39,970 S2: to see the good and the bad, and we need 103 00:06:39,970 --> 00:06:43,250 S2: to be very careful about judging those times. By the 104 00:06:43,250 --> 00:06:46,810 S2: standards of these times, they were just much tougher times. 105 00:06:47,210 --> 00:06:52,990 S2: Whether you were a marine. Um, uh, a free settler, uh, 106 00:06:53,110 --> 00:07:00,270 S2: a convict or an indigenous person. They were just tough times. And, uh, 107 00:07:00,270 --> 00:07:05,310 S2: what we find shocking, uh, was routine in those days. 108 00:07:05,310 --> 00:07:08,350 S3: It strikes me, Tony, that the reason you wrote this 109 00:07:08,350 --> 00:07:10,910 S3: book is tied up in a lot of senses. With 110 00:07:10,910 --> 00:07:13,950 S3: the current malaise of the Liberal Party, there's a sense 111 00:07:13,950 --> 00:07:17,470 S3: that you're out of step with where elite opinion is, 112 00:07:17,510 --> 00:07:21,150 S3: is formed in universities, in schools. Conservative opinion, in your view, 113 00:07:21,150 --> 00:07:24,590 S3: is marginalized. What's happening in modern society? That means the 114 00:07:24,590 --> 00:07:26,750 S3: Liberal Party is so out of step with the culture. 115 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:30,870 S2: Well, I think the culture is out of step with 116 00:07:30,870 --> 00:07:35,550 S2: reality in important respects, and that certainly is one of 117 00:07:35,550 --> 00:07:38,190 S2: the reasons why I wrote the book. Perhaps the main 118 00:07:38,190 --> 00:07:40,870 S2: reason why I wrote the book, because I just wanted 119 00:07:40,870 --> 00:07:45,110 S2: to correct the misapprehensions that so many people seem to 120 00:07:45,150 --> 00:07:51,210 S2: take for granted about about Australia's past. But, look, um, I've, 121 00:07:51,210 --> 00:07:56,970 S2: I've occasionally, uh, probably more ruefully than anything else. Paul, uh, 122 00:07:56,970 --> 00:07:59,970 S2: accepted that I am a bit out of step with 123 00:07:59,970 --> 00:08:03,890 S2: the temper of these times. I mean, um, I don't 124 00:08:03,890 --> 00:08:07,930 S2: think there is a climate crisis. I don't get this 125 00:08:07,930 --> 00:08:12,770 S2: whole trans push. Uh, I certainly don't accept the magic 126 00:08:12,770 --> 00:08:16,730 S2: pudding economics. I was appalled by the virus hysteria that 127 00:08:16,730 --> 00:08:20,929 S2: we lived through, um, for a couple of years. And and, yes, 128 00:08:20,930 --> 00:08:25,130 S2: I certainly don't accept the cultural self-loathing which seems to 129 00:08:25,170 --> 00:08:30,970 S2: characterize not just Australia, but much of the Anglosphere right now. So. 130 00:08:31,050 --> 00:08:34,489 S2: So yes, the book is, in a sense, um, my 131 00:08:34,530 --> 00:08:39,290 S2: pushback against all of this. Um, and I guess if 132 00:08:39,330 --> 00:08:42,570 S2: we're moving on to the Liberal Party, Paul, I wish 133 00:08:43,330 --> 00:08:48,990 S2: my party, The party I still wish well and want 134 00:08:49,030 --> 00:08:52,510 S2: to succeed. I wish my party were a bit more 135 00:08:52,510 --> 00:08:56,189 S2: robust in its approach to things, and I'm pleased to 136 00:08:56,230 --> 00:08:59,390 S2: see that under Sussan Ley, it does seem to be 137 00:08:59,429 --> 00:09:01,670 S2: adopting a slightly more robust approach. 138 00:09:01,710 --> 00:09:03,829 S1: Isn't that a difficult position to be in, though, that 139 00:09:03,830 --> 00:09:06,750 S1: you're basically accepting that you're against sort of mainstream culture 140 00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:09,110 S1: in a few different respects, and the Liberal Party is 141 00:09:09,110 --> 00:09:12,230 S1: also having that problem in the sense that it just 142 00:09:12,230 --> 00:09:15,550 S1: doesn't seem to reflect mainstream Australian values. And we can 143 00:09:15,550 --> 00:09:17,630 S1: see that very clearly at the ballot box. I mean, 144 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:20,750 S1: isn't there an arrogance to a political party that says 145 00:09:20,750 --> 00:09:23,630 S1: we're going to stay here and we're not going to 146 00:09:23,670 --> 00:09:26,670 S1: evolve to the mainstream culture, we're going to stay where 147 00:09:26,670 --> 00:09:29,830 S1: we are, and we're going to fight and belligerently stand 148 00:09:29,830 --> 00:09:33,310 S1: our ground until everybody comes around to us. Isn't that anti-democratic? 149 00:09:33,510 --> 00:09:39,309 S2: Well, Jacqueline, obviously, uh, in a democracy, you want to 150 00:09:39,309 --> 00:09:44,329 S2: win votes rather than alienate voters. But I also think 151 00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:48,810 S2: you've got to engage in a conversation with the public, 152 00:09:49,210 --> 00:09:55,610 S2: which is respectful but occasionally perhaps robust. I mean, I've 153 00:09:55,610 --> 00:10:01,850 S2: always seen the job of political leadership, not as asking 154 00:10:01,850 --> 00:10:04,330 S2: the voters what they want and giving it to them, 155 00:10:04,650 --> 00:10:09,130 S2: but asking yourself, what does the country need? And trying 156 00:10:09,130 --> 00:10:13,090 S2: to persuade voters to vote for it? Um, for instance, 157 00:10:13,090 --> 00:10:18,410 S2: when I became opposition leader back in late 2009, everyone 158 00:10:18,450 --> 00:10:23,890 S2: thought that I was doomed because I didn't share the 159 00:10:23,890 --> 00:10:28,650 S2: consensus that climate change was the greatest economic, political, and 160 00:10:28,650 --> 00:10:32,010 S2: even moral challenge of our time. What I think I 161 00:10:32,050 --> 00:10:36,090 S2: succeeded in doing over two elections was persuading the public 162 00:10:36,090 --> 00:10:38,970 S2: that there was an economic dimension, as well as an 163 00:10:39,010 --> 00:10:44,310 S2: environmental and perhaps moral dimension to climate change. And, um, 164 00:10:44,350 --> 00:10:49,470 S2: I had an unexpected, uh, swing to us in 2010 165 00:10:49,470 --> 00:10:53,030 S2: and a massive swing to us in 2013. And, and 166 00:10:53,030 --> 00:10:57,270 S2: I still think that if you look at the record 167 00:10:57,270 --> 00:11:00,949 S2: of successful governments, Hawke and Keating and then Howard and 168 00:11:00,950 --> 00:11:06,470 S2: Costello and then perhaps to a lesser extent, myself, it 169 00:11:06,470 --> 00:11:11,110 S2: is possible to persuade the public, um, look at the voice. 170 00:11:11,150 --> 00:11:14,710 S2: The voice debate. Um, at the beginning of the voice debate, 171 00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:18,270 S2: some 60% of the public were in favour. In the end, 172 00:11:18,390 --> 00:11:23,310 S2: some 60% were against. And that's because a strong and 173 00:11:23,550 --> 00:11:28,429 S2: and consistent and I thought principled argument was, was mounted. 174 00:11:28,429 --> 00:11:32,070 S2: And and again, I stress the job of political leadership 175 00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:35,150 S2: is not to reflect what the focus groups tell you. 176 00:11:35,429 --> 00:11:40,090 S2: The job of political leadership is to discern what you 177 00:11:40,090 --> 00:11:43,810 S2: think our country most needs now, and try to persuade 178 00:11:43,809 --> 00:11:45,450 S2: the public to vote for that. 179 00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:48,170 S3: You, um, you said at a CPAC conference, I think, 180 00:11:48,170 --> 00:11:51,650 S3: earlier this year that, you know, the conservative supporters there 181 00:11:51,650 --> 00:11:54,010 S3: should give the Liberal Party one more chance to win, 182 00:11:54,250 --> 00:11:56,450 S3: win back their faith. And you strike an optimistic tone 183 00:11:56,450 --> 00:11:58,170 S3: on the Liberal Party. In the book, you say that 184 00:11:58,330 --> 00:12:01,089 S3: you know, all parties, even in their most parlous positions, 185 00:12:01,090 --> 00:12:03,810 S3: are 1 or 2 great leaders away from coming back 186 00:12:03,809 --> 00:12:06,130 S3: to life. Do you think the Liberal Party is in 187 00:12:06,130 --> 00:12:09,610 S3: this existential moment where, because of the fracturing in the 188 00:12:09,610 --> 00:12:12,929 S3: center right and the new ways people gauge information and 189 00:12:12,929 --> 00:12:15,810 S3: the new ways people engage with politicians, there is a 190 00:12:15,809 --> 00:12:18,929 S3: chance that the center right doesn't hold, and it's inevitable 191 00:12:18,929 --> 00:12:22,010 S3: that we see a Nigel Farage style third force in 192 00:12:22,010 --> 00:12:24,330 S3: Australian politics. Or do you think the Liberal Party can 193 00:12:24,570 --> 00:12:25,530 S3: hold that ground? 194 00:12:26,370 --> 00:12:32,850 S2: Uh, we just don't know what the future holds. And plainly, uh, 195 00:12:32,850 --> 00:12:39,030 S2: previous iterations of the Australian, the Australian version of the 196 00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:42,670 S2: centre right have failed. I mean, Deakin's Fusion Liberal Party 197 00:12:43,230 --> 00:12:46,870 S2: disintegrated during the second the First World War. The Nationalist 198 00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:51,990 S2: Party disintegrated during the depression. The UAP disintegrated during the 199 00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:56,270 S2: Second World War. So we have no God given right 200 00:12:56,270 --> 00:13:00,790 S2: to continue to exist, uh, as the main centre right 201 00:13:00,790 --> 00:13:03,829 S2: party as liberals. I mean, we have got to lift 202 00:13:03,830 --> 00:13:07,510 S2: our game, uh, to better address the problems of the 203 00:13:07,510 --> 00:13:11,350 S2: day and better, better appeal to the public. But I 204 00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:15,189 S2: do think we have a better chance of doing that 205 00:13:16,030 --> 00:13:23,670 S2: than any other alternative that I can see. When I 206 00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:28,110 S2: was rolled as prime minister, I had hundreds of letters 207 00:13:28,110 --> 00:13:31,430 S2: and emails from different people saying, oh, Tony, why don't 208 00:13:31,429 --> 00:13:35,110 S2: you start your own political party? And apart from the 209 00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:38,090 S2: fact that I think it would be churlish if someone 210 00:13:38,090 --> 00:13:40,610 S2: who had been put into the prime ministership by the 211 00:13:40,610 --> 00:13:43,050 S2: Liberal Party to then dump the Liberal Party just because 212 00:13:43,050 --> 00:13:45,689 S2: the Liberal Party had decided to put someone else into 213 00:13:45,690 --> 00:13:49,650 S2: the job. I also wrote back to these people, invariably 214 00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:52,809 S2: saying that it's much easier to fix an existing political 215 00:13:52,809 --> 00:13:55,610 S2: party than it is to start a new one. And 216 00:13:55,610 --> 00:13:58,730 S2: while I accept that reform in the United Kingdom is 217 00:13:58,730 --> 00:14:03,690 S2: doing very well, I don't think you can assume, even 218 00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:07,250 S2: on the basis of their current very strong polls, that 219 00:14:07,250 --> 00:14:12,450 S2: that's going to be translated to an election win. And 220 00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:16,490 S2: Nigel Farage is a remarkable politician. He's been on the 221 00:14:16,490 --> 00:14:20,250 S2: scene for a long time. And but for Nigel Farage, 222 00:14:21,370 --> 00:14:26,450 S2: Brexit would never have happened. And I think that shows 223 00:14:26,730 --> 00:14:33,330 S2: a degree of resilience, a degree of insight into the 224 00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:37,310 S2: issues facing Britain, which I don't think any of the 225 00:14:37,830 --> 00:14:42,270 S2: potential alternatives have shown in this country. I have a 226 00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:45,230 S2: you know, I'm, I'm not anti Pauline Hanson. I think 227 00:14:45,270 --> 00:14:50,110 S2: Pauline Hanson, in her second in incarnation, uh, as a, 228 00:14:50,110 --> 00:14:54,790 S2: as a member of Parliament, has been responsible, uh, I 229 00:14:54,910 --> 00:14:58,790 S2: think she's often been quite constructive. But it's one thing 230 00:14:59,510 --> 00:15:03,870 S2: to mount a reasonable critique of where things are at. 231 00:15:04,230 --> 00:15:07,590 S2: It's another thing to be a credible alternative government. I 232 00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:10,870 S2: don't think Nigel Farage is succeeding, and I certainly don't 233 00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:14,110 S2: think that at this point in time, um, One Nation 234 00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:14,750 S2: has succeeded. 235 00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:16,630 S3: How do you take on that? What's the what's the 236 00:15:16,630 --> 00:15:17,270 S3: strategy there? 237 00:15:17,310 --> 00:15:19,430 S2: Well, look at what John Howard did. I mean, when 238 00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:25,270 S2: Pauline Hanson first came to prominence saying that too many 239 00:15:25,310 --> 00:15:28,630 S2: Australians were feeling like strangers in their own country, uh, 240 00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:34,970 S2: government was letting people down. Too much money was being wasted. Howard, 241 00:15:35,410 --> 00:15:44,850 S2: very shrewdly. Resisted the urge to personally attack Hansen. Um would, 242 00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:49,290 S2: from time to time, where necessary, politely disagree with her 243 00:15:50,170 --> 00:15:55,290 S2: and did his best to address the real grievances that 244 00:15:55,330 --> 00:16:01,010 S2: her supporters felt. And over time, uh, the Howard government 245 00:16:01,490 --> 00:16:08,490 S2: did restore, um, prosperity. Uh, Howard's great achievement over the 246 00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:12,890 S2: course of his government was to actually make Australians feel 247 00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:18,730 S2: relaxed and comfortable about ourselves and our country. Um, because 248 00:16:18,730 --> 00:16:24,930 S2: he didn't pursue, uh, those divisive agendas, um, republicanism being 249 00:16:24,930 --> 00:16:30,210 S2: just one that characterised the Keating government, for instance. So 250 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,320 S2: I think the way to respond to Hanson today is 251 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,720 S2: not to be hypercritical of her, not even to be 252 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,760 S2: too focused on her. It's to look at the things 253 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,440 S2: that are causing our problems now. I do think that 254 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,360 S2: there's an insanity to our current energy policy and to 255 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,880 S2: our current emissions obsession. I do think there's deep folly 256 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,720 S2: in what is effectively out of control mass migration at 257 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,040 S2: the moment. I do think that we need to take 258 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:11,879 S2: better charge of a whole range of cultural institutions, which 259 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,600 S2: seem to be going off on, really. 260 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:16,040 S1: What do you mean by that? 261 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:17,200 S2: Well. 262 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,200 S1: Look, how can a government take charge of cultural institutions 263 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:20,760 S1: and why should it? 264 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,719 S2: Well, a government needs to express a strong view. I mean, 265 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,700 S2: give us an example as a as a conservative. As 266 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:35,659 S2: a conservative. Uh, I don't think, uh, that government should 267 00:17:35,660 --> 00:17:41,780 S2: be directing, uh, institutions other than those that are immediately 268 00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:45,780 S2: the responsibility of government. But I think government's more than 269 00:17:45,820 --> 00:17:51,500 S2: capable of providing a lead. For instance. Um. Uh, what? 270 00:17:51,660 --> 00:17:57,060 S2: Why wouldn't, um, senior ministers be able to say, without 271 00:17:57,060 --> 00:18:00,660 S2: any embarrassment or hesitation that there are only two genders? 272 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:03,740 S2: I mean, why is that such a problem? Why have 273 00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:08,340 S2: so many politicians got themselves into absolute knots and twists? 274 00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:10,460 S1: Do you think that's a big issue for Australians? So 275 00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:11,700 S1: you're talking, you're talking. 276 00:18:11,740 --> 00:18:14,740 S2: It's not something. It's not something that the average Australian 277 00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:19,379 S2: obsesses about. But if your teenage kid comes home from 278 00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:25,940 S2: school and suddenly announces that, um, he is a she 279 00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:27,020 S2: or she is a he. 280 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:28,360 S1: Well, they come out as trans. 281 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:35,080 S2: Then. Then it does suddenly become a huge issue. And I, 282 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:42,199 S2: I absolutely accept that if as an adult, um, uh, 283 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:49,159 S2: you you've wrestled for years, maybe with this, uh, issue, uh, and, 284 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,119 S2: and you want to go down a particular path. That's 285 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:57,680 S2: your right. But this idea that schools should be, in 286 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,600 S2: a sense, encouraging gender fluidity and this idea that cultural 287 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:09,040 S2: institutions should be promoting, um, this kind of non-binary identity, uh, 288 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,080 S2: it's I think it's slightly strange. And again, I think 289 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:17,640 S2: it's the job of, of significant national leaders, whether they're 290 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,080 S2: the chairman of big companies, whether it's the head of 291 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,220 S2: the ABC, uh, whether it's members of parliament, premiers, prime ministers. 292 00:19:26,740 --> 00:19:28,540 S2: You've just got to stand up. 293 00:19:28,580 --> 00:19:30,780 S3: If you if you acknowledge that you said earlier that 294 00:19:30,780 --> 00:19:32,940 S3: you don't think this is a top order issue for people, 295 00:19:32,980 --> 00:19:35,500 S3: although some would have strongly held views and be quite 296 00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:37,980 S3: shocked if their kid said that said that to them 297 00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:40,980 S3: after school, which I accept. Why should the Prime Minister 298 00:19:40,980 --> 00:19:43,739 S3: or business leaders spend any time talking about this if 299 00:19:43,740 --> 00:19:45,180 S3: it's not a top order concern? 300 00:19:45,420 --> 00:19:48,899 S2: Because, as Reagan said of the presidency, it is a 301 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:55,500 S2: bully pulpit. Uh, and as as both of you would know, uh, 302 00:19:55,859 --> 00:19:58,980 S2: if you are a premier or a prime minister or 303 00:19:59,020 --> 00:20:02,660 S2: even a senior minister in a government, uh, every time 304 00:20:02,660 --> 00:20:06,620 S2: you have an encounter with the media, you are questioned 305 00:20:06,619 --> 00:20:10,060 S2: about whatever the topical issues of the day are. And 306 00:20:10,660 --> 00:20:16,940 S2: I do think that our leadership has a responsibility to 307 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:21,860 S2: be prepared to express a robust common sense view. Now, 308 00:20:21,859 --> 00:20:25,240 S2: that doesn't mean that you've then got to devote your 309 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,480 S2: whole life to being a culture war warrior. Because in 310 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:34,080 S2: the end, what people expect of government is to try 311 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,639 S2: to ensure that the economy's well managed, to try to 312 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,520 S2: ensure that government is efficiently run, to try to ensure 313 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,199 S2: that the country is as safe as it humanly can be. 314 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,000 S2: But that doesn't mean that you should opt out of 315 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,120 S2: these things, particularly if there are a whole lot of 316 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:59,280 S2: currents pushing society in unusual and even somewhat strange directions. 317 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,800 S1: Could it be that the responsibility also swings the other way, 318 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,840 S1: and that if you have the bully pulpit, as you say, 319 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,720 S1: you have a responsibility not to inflame these issues? And 320 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,960 S1: isn't that something that also should be a consideration for politicians? 321 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:15,280 S2: Well, I think it's important to to treat people with respect. 322 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,359 S2: And again, this is one of the other problems, uh, 323 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,780 S2: in a more fragmented and polarized society. I think there 324 00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:27,460 S2: has been a regrettable tendency to assume that people who 325 00:21:27,460 --> 00:21:32,380 S2: disagree are not just misguided or misinformed, but in some 326 00:21:32,380 --> 00:21:36,260 S2: way bad people. And and I just I think this 327 00:21:36,260 --> 00:21:42,780 S2: is most unfortunate. Uh, but but again, uh, I just 328 00:21:42,780 --> 00:21:46,939 S2: think it's very important, uh, for leaders at every level 329 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:50,100 S2: to say what they mean, to do what they say. 330 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:55,260 S2: And if you see something significant, which you think is, um, 331 00:21:55,660 --> 00:22:00,660 S2: seriously out of line rather than just ignoring it, I 332 00:22:00,660 --> 00:22:04,180 S2: think you should politely deal with it in the same 333 00:22:04,180 --> 00:22:06,420 S2: way that if you're walking down the street and you 334 00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:10,620 S2: see something happening that shouldn't be happening, like the vandalizing 335 00:22:10,619 --> 00:22:14,899 S2: of a car or the harassment of of of a woman, 336 00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:18,340 S2: you you can't just walk past that, or you shouldn't 337 00:22:18,340 --> 00:22:21,120 S2: walk past that. And if you're a leader, you've got 338 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,760 S2: a moral duty to do the best you can to 339 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,040 S2: stop bad things happening. 340 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,680 S1: You talked about the the US presidency being a bully pulpit. 341 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,000 S1: How is Donald Trump handling that responsibility? Well, do you think? 342 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,520 S2: Well, look, I think domestic Trump is uh, is is, uh, 343 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,800 S2: pretty good. Um, I think foreign Trump has done some 344 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,840 S2: good things and some, some things that I wish he 345 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:56,400 S2: hadn't done. Uh, I, I like to see, um, exercises 346 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:02,200 S2: of American power, uh, directed against people who are doing 347 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,160 S2: the wrong thing. So I was pleased to see the 348 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:10,640 S2: American attack on the Iranian nuclear installations. Uh, I accept that. 349 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,920 S2: You've got to be incredibly careful that you don't make 350 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:18,160 S2: make mistakes. But I don't have a problem with American 351 00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:21,060 S2: forces taking out drug running boats. 352 00:23:22,020 --> 00:23:23,780 S1: Even extrajudicially judicially. 353 00:23:24,060 --> 00:23:31,980 S2: Well, look, the Obama administration certainly launched lots of kill 354 00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:36,780 S2: strikes on suspected terrorists. Sometimes got it wrong, but they 355 00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:41,380 S2: certainly did that. And, um, I, I don't think there 356 00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:44,580 S2: was all that much moral outrage about what the Obama 357 00:23:44,580 --> 00:23:48,260 S2: administration tried to do. And I think that there should 358 00:23:48,260 --> 00:23:54,060 S2: be the same, I guess, level of understanding applied to 359 00:23:54,140 --> 00:23:57,859 S2: the current administration as was applied to to the former administration. 360 00:23:57,940 --> 00:24:00,340 S3: The foreign sphere. You've been a big supporter of Ukraine 361 00:24:00,340 --> 00:24:03,659 S3: and its war with Russia. You famously said you'd shirtfront 362 00:24:03,660 --> 00:24:07,940 S3: Vladimir Putin, infamously, famously, I don't know which term you'd use. 363 00:24:08,220 --> 00:24:12,460 S3: Do you worry that China is watching, uh, Trump's manoeuvre 364 00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:14,540 S3: in on on Russia and Ukraine? 365 00:24:14,580 --> 00:24:15,220 S2: Absolutely. 366 00:24:15,220 --> 00:24:18,760 S3: And considering it in relation to its thinking on Taiwan. 367 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:26,320 S2: Absolutely right. I mean, you know, the the democratic West 368 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,440 S2: is currently challenged by, if you like, an axis of autocracy, 369 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,240 S2: whether it's the militarist dictatorship in Moscow, the communist dictatorship 370 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:43,360 S2: in Beijing, the apocalyptic theocratic dictatorship in Iran, and these 371 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:49,840 S2: challenger powers are working in a kind of loose concert, 372 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,199 S2: not because they have all that much in common, uh, 373 00:24:53,800 --> 00:25:03,199 S2: except for this their deep dissatisfaction with the Anglo-American global order, uh, 374 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,240 S2: which has dominated the world for much of the last 375 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:11,160 S2: two centuries, but particularly since the Second World War. And 376 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,260 S2: there is no doubt whatsoever that as part of the 377 00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:19,060 S2: No Limits partnership, the declared no limits partnership between Putin 378 00:25:19,060 --> 00:25:24,780 S2: and XI. If Putin in the end prevails in Ukraine 379 00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:29,300 S2: because the West's refused to support this country fighting heroically 380 00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:31,180 S2: for its the freedom and independence the US. 381 00:25:31,180 --> 00:25:31,620 S3: Really? 382 00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:36,260 S2: Um, but but of course, part of the problem is 383 00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:40,859 S2: that even Britain and France, um, are now reluctant to 384 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:45,300 S2: do anything without American support. I mean, Sir Keir Starmer, 385 00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:50,020 S2: I think, quite properly announced earlier in the year, uh, 386 00:25:50,020 --> 00:25:53,540 S2: that once a ceasefire was in place, there would be a, 387 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:58,700 S2: a British led stabilisation force in Ukraine to act as 388 00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:02,740 S2: a tripwire against further Russian aggression. But he said, but 389 00:26:02,740 --> 00:26:05,700 S2: we would need an American backstop when the American backstop 390 00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:10,020 S2: was not immediately forthcoming. He suddenly started backpedaling. Now, I 391 00:26:10,020 --> 00:26:14,240 S2: think it's sad, frankly, that That a country like Britain 392 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,600 S2: is not prepared to act independently here. 393 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,000 S3: That's right. Just back to your point. If Russia was 394 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,320 S3: to prevail and you were going to continue on to 395 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,040 S3: how China would act, I'll let you continue with that. 396 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,960 S2: Yeah. Well, well, there's there's no doubt that China would 397 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,600 S2: take that as a sign of, of Western weakness and 398 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,560 S2: in particular of American weakness, or at least of an 399 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,240 S2: American pullback from the wider, from the wider. 400 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,879 S3: And what could the consequence be in terms of the Indo-Pacific? 401 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:50,320 S2: Well, um, uh, if America were to pull back, uh, 402 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:56,840 S2: to its own hemisphere, uh, that would allow China to, to, to, 403 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:03,560 S2: to dominate Asia, um, and most likely Russia to dominate Europe. 404 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,959 S2: And if our world were dominated by China over time, 405 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,790 S2: it would be a very different, and I think much 406 00:27:12,830 --> 00:27:18,150 S2: worse world than it has been up till now. I mean, 407 00:27:18,190 --> 00:27:24,710 S2: the long Anglo American ascendancy has changed the world, uh, 408 00:27:25,030 --> 00:27:29,670 S2: in the Anglo American direction. More free, more fair, more rich, 409 00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:37,710 S2: more safe. Um, a a sinocentric world would change everything 410 00:27:38,190 --> 00:27:42,830 S2: in a Chinese direction. And much as I love Chinese people, 411 00:27:43,070 --> 00:27:51,270 S2: Chinese governance is. Much more, um, it's much less conducive 412 00:27:51,270 --> 00:27:52,710 S2: to individual freedom. 413 00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:55,710 S1: You met with JD Vance, Vice President JD Vance on 414 00:27:55,910 --> 00:27:58,230 S1: a few days ago in the United States. Is that 415 00:27:58,230 --> 00:27:59,430 S1: something you discussed with him? 416 00:28:00,109 --> 00:28:03,830 S2: Look, uh, we had a great talk. I'm a big 417 00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:06,669 S2: fan of JD Vance. I think he's a very, very 418 00:28:06,670 --> 00:28:11,369 S2: impressive human being. And, um, I would encourage anyone who 419 00:28:11,369 --> 00:28:13,970 S2: wants to get a handle on JD Vance to read 420 00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:18,369 S2: his outstanding book, Hillbilly Elegy. Uh, I won't go into 421 00:28:18,369 --> 00:28:21,930 S2: the detail of what we discussed. One matter that I 422 00:28:21,970 --> 00:28:24,690 S2: have been raising on and off in the United States 423 00:28:24,730 --> 00:28:29,450 S2: ever since Aukus was announced, and all credit to the 424 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:34,929 S2: Morrison government for announcing Aukus and all credit to the 425 00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:38,930 S2: Albanese government for continuing with Aukus. The problem with Aukus 426 00:28:38,970 --> 00:28:45,490 S2: is that we need more naval strike power now. Um, 427 00:28:45,610 --> 00:28:50,170 S2: and yes, let's get Virginia class subs, uh, in 8 428 00:28:50,170 --> 00:28:53,530 S2: or 10 years time and let's get the Aukus subs, uh, 429 00:28:53,530 --> 00:28:56,490 S2: in 10 or 15 years time. But wouldn't it be 430 00:28:56,490 --> 00:29:02,010 S2: good to get a nuclear powered submarine now? And given 431 00:29:02,010 --> 00:29:05,209 S2: that the Americans are retiring a couple of LA class 432 00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:11,630 S2: nuclear powered submarines every year. My curiosity is why couldn't 433 00:29:11,670 --> 00:29:17,229 S2: Australia take over 1 or 2 of these boats now, uh, 434 00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:22,230 S2: and run them for a few years, uh, as Australian 435 00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:27,990 S2: ends in flagged boats? Because, um, it's nearly always possible 436 00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:32,110 S2: to extract a few more years of useful life out of, 437 00:29:32,430 --> 00:29:36,270 S2: out of out of these, these vessels. And why not 438 00:29:36,270 --> 00:29:41,670 S2: do that? Because we really do need more firepower now. Um, 439 00:29:41,670 --> 00:29:46,670 S2: because as everyone says, uh, a crisis across the Taiwan 440 00:29:46,670 --> 00:29:51,310 S2: Straits could be much closer than a decade away. 441 00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:53,390 S1: So is that something you suggested to JD Vance? 442 00:29:53,630 --> 00:29:55,590 S2: I'm just not going to go into the details. 443 00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:56,830 S1: You brought it up in that context. 444 00:29:57,150 --> 00:29:57,630 S3: Um, I. 445 00:29:58,070 --> 00:30:00,150 S1: Think I will take it as a possible. Yes. I 446 00:30:00,150 --> 00:30:02,430 S1: want to ask you just lastly about something, because we're 447 00:30:02,430 --> 00:30:04,430 S1: running out of time. Unfortunately, I feel like we could 448 00:30:04,430 --> 00:30:07,250 S1: talk for a lot longer in reading around last week 449 00:30:07,290 --> 00:30:09,810 S1: about you. I read a piece in the Australian from 450 00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:11,410 S1: a few years ago that you wrote a letter of 451 00:30:11,410 --> 00:30:15,690 S1: recommendation for Julia Gillard, for her recommendation for an Order 452 00:30:15,690 --> 00:30:17,690 S1: of Australia, a companion in the Order of Australia, which, 453 00:30:17,730 --> 00:30:19,930 S1: of course, she was awarded. Is that true? 454 00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:25,690 S2: Look, uh, I honestly don't recollect it, but but but but. 455 00:30:25,730 --> 00:30:27,610 S1: Do you just dash these letters off all the time? 456 00:30:27,650 --> 00:30:32,770 S2: But I, I certainly I certainly thought she was an appropriate, uh, awardee. 457 00:30:32,810 --> 00:30:36,050 S2: And I have written a lot of letters over the 458 00:30:36,050 --> 00:30:39,370 S2: years in support of people getting an award. And one 459 00:30:39,370 --> 00:30:41,610 S2: of the points I make in the book is that 460 00:30:42,970 --> 00:30:49,370 S2: Gillard was a very capable politician. I mean, uh, I 461 00:30:49,370 --> 00:30:52,810 S2: was uh, she was the shadow Minister for health when 462 00:30:52,810 --> 00:30:57,530 S2: I was the health minister. Um, she was the manager 463 00:30:57,530 --> 00:31:01,330 S2: of opposition business when I was the leader of the House. Uh, 464 00:31:01,650 --> 00:31:05,710 S2: she was deputy prime minister when I became opposition leader, 465 00:31:06,110 --> 00:31:09,550 S2: she and I for several years did a Friday morning 466 00:31:09,870 --> 00:31:14,870 S2: joint discussion on the today programme with, uh, with Carl. 467 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:20,870 S2: And she's an impressive person, and certainly she's been really 468 00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:26,190 S2: exemplary as an ex prime minister. She's, um, occasionally said 469 00:31:26,190 --> 00:31:29,430 S2: things that she thought needed to be said, um, while 470 00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:34,070 S2: at the same time immersing herself in various good works. So, um, 471 00:31:34,510 --> 00:31:38,070 S2: if I did write a letter, I'm pleased. And if 472 00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:42,390 S2: I didn't, I certainly think that she's a worthy awardee. 473 00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:44,790 S1: How do you reflect on that time now? I mean, 474 00:31:44,830 --> 00:31:47,590 S1: times have changed a lot. And certainly the way that 475 00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:50,350 S1: we talk about gender and sexism in public life. She, 476 00:31:50,390 --> 00:31:52,750 S1: of course, accused of misogyny. She wasn't the only person 477 00:31:52,750 --> 00:31:55,630 S1: to accuse you of misogyny at that time. Do you 478 00:31:55,630 --> 00:31:58,070 S1: think it would be acceptable now, for example, for a 479 00:31:58,110 --> 00:31:59,750 S1: party leader to stand in front of a sign that 480 00:31:59,750 --> 00:32:02,150 S1: says Bob Brown's bitch or ditch the witch, that kind 481 00:32:02,150 --> 00:32:03,730 S1: of thing. Do you regret that? 482 00:32:03,770 --> 00:32:08,730 S2: Well, Jacqueline, as you might remember, uh, at the time, 483 00:32:08,730 --> 00:32:13,530 S2: I was completely unaware, uh, that those banners were there. Uh, 484 00:32:13,530 --> 00:32:17,290 S2: I mean, they were, as far as I'm aware, erected 485 00:32:17,290 --> 00:32:20,930 S2: behind me after I'd stood up to, uh, to speak. 486 00:32:21,130 --> 00:32:24,330 S1: Yeah, I'm still. I guess the question still stands whether 487 00:32:24,330 --> 00:32:28,250 S1: you regret any of the commentary, any of your behavior, 488 00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:31,650 S1: any part that you might have played in the perceptions 489 00:32:31,650 --> 00:32:34,610 S1: and the hysteria around that time, and the undeniable sexist 490 00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:37,690 S1: treatment that Julia Gillard was subject to? Well. 491 00:32:38,170 --> 00:32:44,650 S2: I, I often used to observe that, uh, back in 492 00:32:44,650 --> 00:32:49,410 S2: the day, uh, the parliamentary chamber was not fair, uh, 493 00:32:49,410 --> 00:32:53,210 S2: to to female to female members. I mean, I can 494 00:32:53,210 --> 00:32:57,050 S2: remember when Carmen Lawrence used to stand up as health minister. Uh, 495 00:32:57,250 --> 00:33:03,630 S2: I thought there was a. Um, uh, a nasty dimension 496 00:33:03,630 --> 00:33:09,150 S2: sometimes to the barracking that that she got. Um, by 497 00:33:09,150 --> 00:33:13,510 S2: all means, Jacqueline, point to something that I did or said, um, 498 00:33:13,550 --> 00:33:18,150 S2: which which was, um, an example of sexist misogyny because 499 00:33:18,150 --> 00:33:20,670 S2: I think I honestly think you'd struggle to find anything. 500 00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:22,670 S1: What I'm asking. I'm not I'm not saying that at all. 501 00:33:22,670 --> 00:33:25,550 S1: What I'm asking is whether in your time reflecting because 502 00:33:25,550 --> 00:33:29,110 S1: it was now ten years ago, plus in your time 503 00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:31,870 S1: reflecting whether or not you would do anything differently or 504 00:33:31,870 --> 00:33:34,390 S1: how you reflect on all of the commentary and all 505 00:33:34,390 --> 00:33:37,430 S1: of the sort of, um, reflection we've had on the 506 00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:40,430 S1: sexism in politics at that time. And I'm not talking 507 00:33:40,430 --> 00:33:45,910 S1: about your behaviour necessarily, but all I'm talking about the 508 00:33:45,910 --> 00:33:48,910 S1: media commentary. You know, Alan Jones, who's a friend of yours, 509 00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:51,070 S1: famously was horrendously sexist. 510 00:33:51,070 --> 00:33:53,230 S2: Towards and he and he and he apologised. 511 00:33:53,270 --> 00:33:55,110 S1: Sure. But I guess what I'm asking is how do 512 00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:56,230 S1: you reflect on that time now? 513 00:33:56,270 --> 00:34:01,090 S2: I mean, I mean, look, Occasionally people say things, um, 514 00:34:01,330 --> 00:34:06,090 S2: in the heat of the moment that they regret. Uh, 515 00:34:06,090 --> 00:34:10,130 S2: and when that happens, you should apologize. And Alan, to 516 00:34:10,170 --> 00:34:14,890 S2: his credit, did apologize for those observations, which were they 517 00:34:14,930 --> 00:34:18,250 S2: were silly. They were over the top. They were wrong. Um, and, 518 00:34:18,250 --> 00:34:23,210 S2: and and likewise, uh, I'm just trying to think back 519 00:34:23,210 --> 00:34:25,170 S2: to anything that I might have said or done at 520 00:34:25,170 --> 00:34:27,850 S2: the time. Um, I don't. 521 00:34:27,890 --> 00:34:31,529 S3: There's the sex appeal comment. There's, uh, the, the the 522 00:34:31,570 --> 00:34:34,930 S3: daughter's comment. I'm just trying to recall my mind back. 523 00:34:34,969 --> 00:34:37,009 S3: I mean, there's the women doing the ironing. There's a 524 00:34:37,010 --> 00:34:38,330 S3: there's a couple that come to mind. 525 00:34:38,370 --> 00:34:42,009 S2: Well, I suppose these these were, uh. 526 00:34:42,850 --> 00:34:45,490 S1: I could make an honest woman. 527 00:34:45,810 --> 00:34:49,970 S2: I think they're pretty. I think they were fairly innocent observations. Um, 528 00:34:50,410 --> 00:34:56,410 S2: maybe tactless observations. Uh, um, in the Abbott household, um, 529 00:34:56,910 --> 00:35:00,310 S2: when I was growing up, I'm afraid mum did the ironing. 530 00:35:00,310 --> 00:35:03,030 S2: It was as simple as that. And I think even now, 531 00:35:03,390 --> 00:35:06,669 S2: it's probably true that in more households than not, it's 532 00:35:06,670 --> 00:35:09,430 S2: the woman that does the ironing. To the extent that 533 00:35:09,430 --> 00:35:13,310 S2: we do any ironing these days. Um, and what was 534 00:35:13,310 --> 00:35:14,910 S2: the other thing I said wrong, Paul? 535 00:35:15,070 --> 00:35:16,670 S3: Oh, there was the sex appeal to Fiona. 536 00:35:16,750 --> 00:35:17,310 S2: Oh, yes. 537 00:35:17,310 --> 00:35:19,469 S3: Yes, there was comment on your daughter's appearance, which I 538 00:35:19,469 --> 00:35:20,990 S3: think people found maybe slightly weird. 539 00:35:20,989 --> 00:35:23,350 S1: That Julia Gillard should make an honest woman of herself. 540 00:35:23,390 --> 00:35:24,910 S1: I mean, there's a there's a list of these things, 541 00:35:24,910 --> 00:35:27,509 S1: but I suppose the, um, the but. 542 00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:30,150 S2: If but if but if Julia Gillard had said Tony 543 00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:32,710 S2: Abbott should make an honest man of himself, would that 544 00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:34,150 S2: be a sexist observation? 545 00:35:34,670 --> 00:35:36,029 S3: I doubt it would be seen that way, but. 546 00:35:36,070 --> 00:35:36,870 S2: No, see. 547 00:35:36,910 --> 00:35:39,910 S3: But that's not how gender the imbalance is on the other. 548 00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:45,270 S2: Side. I mean, look, let's I just think we can 549 00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:50,509 S2: get we can just get overexcited about these things. I mean, 550 00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:56,850 S2: I believe that in my adult life. I have always 551 00:35:56,850 --> 00:36:01,169 S2: treated women with respect. Uh, and I have, as far 552 00:36:01,170 --> 00:36:06,330 S2: as is humanly possible, uh, tried to see people as people, 553 00:36:06,570 --> 00:36:13,969 S2: not as female, male, black, white, Catholic, Protestant, Australian, non-australian. 554 00:36:14,010 --> 00:36:20,170 S2: I've tried to treat people as people. Um, and and 555 00:36:20,489 --> 00:36:22,570 S2: to look for the good in them, despite your. 556 00:36:22,890 --> 00:36:26,330 S3: Uh, what you described as some tactless comments. Uh, I 557 00:36:26,330 --> 00:36:29,770 S3: think in talking to people before this podcast, I've described 558 00:36:29,770 --> 00:36:32,370 S3: them your position in kind of conservative circles, both in 559 00:36:32,370 --> 00:36:35,009 S3: Australia and in London and in Washington and other places 560 00:36:35,210 --> 00:36:36,930 S3: you do hold, it seems to me, this kind of 561 00:36:36,969 --> 00:36:40,450 S3: special status as the leading Australian conservative, Malcolm Turnbull and 562 00:36:40,450 --> 00:36:43,490 S3: Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton don't command the crowds you command. 563 00:36:43,489 --> 00:36:46,770 S3: At Conservative Party conferences in London and other places. I've 564 00:36:46,770 --> 00:36:49,250 S3: seen some of this myself. The way you get mugged 565 00:36:49,250 --> 00:36:54,069 S3: in crowds, you're still also highly active in factional politics. 566 00:36:54,790 --> 00:37:00,390 S3: You engage with internal politics and just the general affairs 567 00:37:00,390 --> 00:37:01,790 S3: of the Liberal Party in a way that most of 568 00:37:01,790 --> 00:37:05,989 S3: your predecessors don't anymore. What's what's the mission that you're on? What? 569 00:37:06,030 --> 00:37:09,029 S3: Why are you still so engaged, and what are you 570 00:37:09,070 --> 00:37:09,790 S3: driving at? 571 00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:14,310 S2: Well, I think John Howard has been no less involved 572 00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:15,589 S2: in the party. 573 00:37:15,790 --> 00:37:17,310 S3: Uh, probably just due to age now. 574 00:37:17,710 --> 00:37:23,470 S2: And and John certainly is, I think, quite appropriately, appropriately 575 00:37:23,469 --> 00:37:27,910 S2: regarded as the greatest living liberal, um, in some respects, 576 00:37:28,350 --> 00:37:32,710 S2: perhaps the greatest ever liberal. Uh, and I think he's 577 00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:36,550 S2: been altogether a force for good in the Liberal Party 578 00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:41,190 S2: in his post post-parliamentary time. And I guess in this respect, 579 00:37:41,190 --> 00:37:45,670 S2: at least, I would want to model myself in on 580 00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:49,549 S2: on John Howard. Um, I want my party to succeed. 581 00:37:49,830 --> 00:37:53,180 S2: I want my party to be its best self. And 582 00:37:53,219 --> 00:37:57,820 S2: I think it will succeed best and be its best 583 00:37:57,820 --> 00:38:03,820 S2: self if it is a robust alternative to labour. If 584 00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:10,100 S2: it is liberal in the sense of wanting smaller government, 585 00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:14,500 S2: lower taxes, greater freedom. If it is conservative in the 586 00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:19,739 S2: sense of respecting the family, small business institutions that have 587 00:38:19,739 --> 00:38:22,500 S2: stood the test of time. But above all else, if 588 00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:27,060 S2: it is patriotic because I think Australia is the best 589 00:38:27,060 --> 00:38:29,379 S2: place in the world to live, and I desperately want 590 00:38:29,420 --> 00:38:30,140 S2: us to stay that way. 591 00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:32,339 S3: You've acknowledged, though, that you're some of the views you 592 00:38:32,380 --> 00:38:35,580 S3: hold are potentially out of step with mainstream Australian values. 593 00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:38,020 S3: Are you fighting some of your colleagues who served with you? 594 00:38:38,020 --> 00:38:40,739 S3: Feel like you're fighting the battles of your prime ministership, 595 00:38:40,739 --> 00:38:43,580 S3: that you're driven by a sense that you still have 596 00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:45,779 S3: work to do? Because that was cut short in the 597 00:38:45,780 --> 00:38:46,460 S3: way it was. 598 00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:51,160 S2: Yeah. Well. Well, I mean, I don't think we should 599 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,520 S2: run our electricity system to reduce emissions, and I think 600 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,440 S2: a whole lot of those chickens are in the process 601 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:03,080 S2: of coming home to roost. I do think we need to, um, 602 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,439 S2: get government spending under better control. I do think we 603 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,719 S2: need to encourage a greater sense of personal responsibility. And 604 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:17,080 S2: I do think that Australia should, uh, be better prepared 605 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:21,520 S2: to defend itself if needs be and to make a 606 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,839 S2: contribution to defending freedom in the wider world. So I 607 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,360 S2: don't think these issues really ever change. Paul. I mean, 608 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,520 S2: I think the circumstances change, but the fundamental imperatives don't 609 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:34,879 S2: very finely. 610 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,680 S3: Um, your keenness to contribute to public life, I didn't 611 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,719 S3: realise extended to before the last election, actually having conversations 612 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,400 S3: with people about running in a seat before the May election. 613 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,299 S3: I've heard from people close to Peter Dutton that there 614 00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:52,219 S3: were conversations about running for a Senate spot for MacArthur, 615 00:39:52,219 --> 00:39:54,779 S3: for Parramatta. All of these things were floated and you 616 00:39:54,780 --> 00:39:56,540 S3: were you were keen and expressed this view to the 617 00:39:56,540 --> 00:39:57,740 S3: former opposition leader. 618 00:39:57,780 --> 00:40:01,100 S2: I think I think that's a little bit of an exaggeration. 619 00:40:01,140 --> 00:40:05,259 S2: I had one conversation with Peter Dutton, um, after it 620 00:40:05,260 --> 00:40:10,060 S2: was publicly suggested that I could possibly take Jim Molan 621 00:40:10,060 --> 00:40:17,140 S2: Senate seat, and Peter basically said that it would make 622 00:40:17,140 --> 00:40:20,899 S2: his life more complicated if that were to happen. I 623 00:40:20,940 --> 00:40:25,900 S2: completely accepted that. Um, now, different people said to me, oh, Tony, 624 00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:30,620 S2: why don't you have another go? And my view then 625 00:40:30,660 --> 00:40:36,260 S2: and now is that I couldn't or shouldn't do anything 626 00:40:36,260 --> 00:40:39,460 S2: that makes the life of the leader of the Liberal 627 00:40:39,460 --> 00:40:41,580 S2: Party more complicated. And. 628 00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:44,620 S3: Um, can you see a path back where it doesn't 629 00:40:44,620 --> 00:40:47,120 S3: make the leader's life more complicated? Is it still? Is 630 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:48,600 S3: it in prospect in some way? 631 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,600 S2: Look, um, I've got a lot to do as things stand, Paul. 632 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,200 S2: I mean, I've got a book to promote. Um, I've 633 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,439 S2: got a couple of other book projects, at least. 634 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:00,440 S3: A couple of book projects. 635 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,560 S2: In, in, in in my mind. 636 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:02,880 S3: What are. 637 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,040 S2: They? Uh, let's, uh, get them further advanced before we 638 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:08,880 S2: start talking about them in public. 639 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,000 S3: But, but. 640 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,160 S2: But thank you, thank you. I appreciate that, but, um, 641 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,600 S2: I think the best thing that people like me can do, uh, 642 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:24,839 S2: in normal political circumstances, is be as encouraging as I 643 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,719 S2: can be to the coming generation of liberals. And just 644 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,440 S2: as I want the Liberal Party to be its best self, 645 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,000 S2: I want my, um, I guess, liberal successors to be 646 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,560 S2: their best selves. And I'll just keep doing that to 647 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:40,759 S2: the best of my ability. 648 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,279 S1: Tony, you've been so generous with your time. Unfortunately, we 649 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:44,700 S1: have to let you go. You do have a book 650 00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,339 S1: to promote. I would encourage everyone to buy this book 651 00:41:47,340 --> 00:41:49,899 S1: for for Christmas presents. It's it's actually a really good read. 652 00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:52,460 S1: And that's for people who maybe wouldn't even be natural 653 00:41:52,460 --> 00:41:54,820 S1: fans of Tony Abbott's or might not have voted for him. 654 00:41:54,860 --> 00:41:56,940 S1: We do have an extraordinary history and he's laid it 655 00:41:56,940 --> 00:41:59,660 S1: out in beautiful, lucid prose. Tony Abbott, thank you very much. 656 00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:01,180 S2: Thanks, Jacqueline. Thanks, Paul. 657 00:42:06,260 --> 00:42:10,060 S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer 658 00:42:10,060 --> 00:42:13,060 S1: is Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. 659 00:42:13,739 --> 00:42:15,700 S1: To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, 660 00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:19,419 S1: follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you 661 00:42:19,420 --> 00:42:22,379 S1: listen to your podcasts. To stay up to date with 662 00:42:22,380 --> 00:42:25,299 S1: all the politics, news and exclusives, visit The Age and 663 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:29,339 S1: The Sydney Morning Herald websites. To support our journalism, subscribe 664 00:42:29,340 --> 00:42:34,419 S1: to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm 665 00:42:34,420 --> 00:42:36,420 S1: Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.