1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,640 S1: Amazing story by Nick McKenzie. Thousands of North Korean agents 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:07,280 S1: posing as IT workers are infiltrating Western companies around the globe, 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,680 S1: including Australia, to fund weapons programs in the communist state. 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,920 S1: Nick McKenzie, award winning investigative journalist at The Age. Nick, 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,759 S1: good morning to you. So they actually never physically leave 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,800 S1: North Korea, but to the person employing them in Australia, 7 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,479 S1: they have a view that they're actually working from home 8 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:24,880 S1: in Melbourne somewhere. 9 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:27,880 S2: It could be in Australia, it could be in America 10 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,240 S2: or Singapore, but they're stuck in a actually a North 11 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:35,000 S2: Korean military bunker or in a safe place like Russia 12 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,800 S2: or China. And they never come to the office is 13 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,160 S2: the key. They work remotely. And the Aussie company thinks, right, 14 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,320 S2: they're just an offshore or remote employee. 15 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,760 S3: And so Nick, then they get paid and then the 16 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:47,960 S3: money doesn't go to the employee goes to the state. 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,840 S2: That's right. They're basically think of them as an army 18 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,160 S2: for Kim Jong un, the North Korean leader earning him 19 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,280 S2: money to fund his weapons program. Once they're in a company, though, 20 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,080 S2: it's not just earning that money and sending it back 21 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,330 S2: to North Korea, there's a real chance they can steal IP's. 22 00:01:04,370 --> 00:01:07,209 S2: Still secrets. That's a problem if it's a defense company. 23 00:01:07,490 --> 00:01:11,050 S2: And ultimately, the biggest, perhaps risk is that of sabotage 24 00:01:11,050 --> 00:01:15,130 S2: once they're into your computer systems. If North Korea so wants, 25 00:01:15,530 --> 00:01:18,850 S2: then that person or that army can be activated to 26 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:20,570 S2: cause significant harm. 27 00:01:20,610 --> 00:01:23,530 S1: Okay, so I've got to imagine circumstances where the employer 28 00:01:23,530 --> 00:01:28,530 S1: twigs that their North Korean and says, sorry, mate, I've 29 00:01:28,569 --> 00:01:30,970 S1: twigged that you're a North Korean and I'm going to 30 00:01:30,970 --> 00:01:33,330 S1: stop employing you. And he says, well, you better keep 31 00:01:33,330 --> 00:01:36,770 S1: employing me or I'll totally destroy your systems from the inside. 32 00:01:37,730 --> 00:01:40,610 S2: We've seen that happen as well in overseas examples, where 33 00:01:41,650 --> 00:01:44,170 S2: quite a famous case, a US hospital was ultimately held 34 00:01:44,650 --> 00:01:49,850 S2: for ransom. So it can be very, very serious. And 35 00:01:50,450 --> 00:01:53,530 S2: it's sort of beggars belief that Aussie companies would be 36 00:01:53,530 --> 00:01:57,570 S2: so daft as to employ, you know, a North Korean undercover. 37 00:01:57,570 --> 00:02:01,170 S2: But it is happening. And perhaps the prime example, one 38 00:02:01,170 --> 00:02:03,690 S2: of the victims of all this is NAB, the major bank. 39 00:02:03,730 --> 00:02:07,660 S2: You know, if a major bank can employ a. Employ 40 00:02:07,660 --> 00:02:11,220 S2: a North Korean IT worker, albeit through a third party contractor. 41 00:02:12,060 --> 00:02:14,900 S2: Despite all its tech systems and security systems. I mean, 42 00:02:14,940 --> 00:02:17,460 S2: think about smaller Aussie enterprises and just how exposed they 43 00:02:17,460 --> 00:02:17,940 S2: must be. 44 00:02:18,220 --> 00:02:20,060 S3: Yeah. So Nick, I mean, now that now that you've 45 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:23,100 S3: actually revealed that this is happening, is it easy for 46 00:02:23,380 --> 00:02:25,580 S3: businesses to say, oh, hang on, I need to track 47 00:02:25,580 --> 00:02:26,740 S3: where this is coming from? 48 00:02:27,900 --> 00:02:30,420 S2: This is a massive wake up call for Aussie businesses. 49 00:02:30,419 --> 00:02:33,060 S2: And that's the language of the director general of ASIO, 50 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:37,660 S2: Mike Burgess. But this is a vast army of North Koreans, 51 00:02:37,660 --> 00:02:41,700 S2: and it's an operation that's run at scale, not so 52 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:45,660 S2: much at a quality level. And so we know there 53 00:02:45,700 --> 00:02:50,980 S2: are Australian companies looking to offshore IT components, and they'll 54 00:02:51,220 --> 00:02:53,380 S2: keep doing that, I think. You know, it's a it's 55 00:02:53,419 --> 00:02:56,060 S2: a good offering for an Australian company looking for a 56 00:02:56,060 --> 00:03:00,460 S2: cheaper employee. But beware what's going through your um your 57 00:03:00,460 --> 00:03:01,380 S2: it back door. 58 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:04,140 S1: And I understand that you exposed one who claimed to 59 00:03:04,139 --> 00:03:06,100 S1: be working from New York City by asking him where 60 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:07,200 S1: in New York he lived. 61 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,560 S2: Yeah. It's really one of the craziest things that's happened 62 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,720 S2: in my 25 years as a journalist is to actually 63 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,160 S2: put out a job interview, to have a North Korean. 64 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:17,679 S2: I mean, we were targeting the right sort of pool 65 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,040 S2: of people. We'd have a North Korean agent answer pretending 66 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,720 S2: to be a bloke called Aaron Pearson. Now, I knew 67 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,280 S2: Aaron Pearson had got some of his resumes. Aaron Pearson 68 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,239 S2: was a an alias, a nom de plume used by 69 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,000 S2: the North Koreans. I was expecting a black American. That 70 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,079 S2: was the photo on at least one of the CVS 71 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,120 S2: to pop up, and a bloke looking suspiciously North Korean 72 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,840 S2: pops up on the screen and it's a bizarre interview, 73 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,680 S2: he says. All the right tech stuff. I'm pretending to 74 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,560 S2: be a recruiter. I've gone on the cover. But when 75 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,320 S2: I asked him, well, you went to New York University 76 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,400 S2: for three years, tell me, what was your favorite borough? 77 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,800 S2: Manhattan was a Brooklyn, the Bronx. What did you what 78 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,240 S2: did you like? And now he's in San Jose, California. 79 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,560 S2: Has he been to Big Sur, the biggest landmark around there? 80 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:01,840 S2: It was just stumbling and stammering in New York. I 81 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,000 S2: asked him where he lived and all he could muster was, 82 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,720 S2: first it was New York City, then it was West, 83 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,410 S2: New York City, West, and not a location anyone's ever 84 00:04:09,410 --> 00:04:09,810 S2: heard of. 85 00:04:10,490 --> 00:04:13,050 S3: So, Nick, you're talking about this is happening around the world. 86 00:04:13,050 --> 00:04:15,650 S3: So any idea of the scale of it? Like how 87 00:04:15,650 --> 00:04:16,850 S3: many people are doing it? 88 00:04:17,850 --> 00:04:23,490 S2: Well, the estimate from the leading cyber company, Dtex, that's 89 00:04:23,490 --> 00:04:27,410 S2: fighting it here is dozens of Australian companies have been infiltrated. 90 00:04:27,450 --> 00:04:30,450 S2: We know there are thousands of North Koreans doing this 91 00:04:30,490 --> 00:04:34,530 S2: in America. In one case alone, a woman's gone to jail. 92 00:04:34,529 --> 00:04:37,450 S2: She was an intermediary for the North Koreans. She helped 93 00:04:37,450 --> 00:04:40,810 S2: North Korea infiltrate. This is just a sort of dowdy, 94 00:04:40,850 --> 00:04:47,090 S2: daft woman from middle America, helped North Korea infiltrate 300 companies. 95 00:04:47,370 --> 00:04:51,250 S2: The UN estimates that $800 million Australian is being earned 96 00:04:51,250 --> 00:04:53,450 S2: each year by the North Koreans. By doing this, it's 97 00:04:53,450 --> 00:04:57,450 S2: a massive operation. It's well entrenched, and it's fair to 98 00:04:57,490 --> 00:04:59,930 S2: say the spy agencies, the Five Eyes are waking up 99 00:04:59,930 --> 00:05:02,130 S2: to it. But Aussie companies as we speak here right 100 00:05:02,130 --> 00:05:04,970 S2: now are infiltrated. There are North Koreans on their books, 101 00:05:04,970 --> 00:05:06,890 S2: and that money is still flowing back to the regime. 102 00:05:07,490 --> 00:05:11,529 S1: Incredible, Nick, great work as usual. Nick McKenzie from the age.