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S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a

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S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell Milk Embry.

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S1: What's up folks? How are we doing?

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S2: Pretty good. We're in the same room. It's always fun.

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S1: It's very nice to be prepared.

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S2: Bento is very strong. Probably some of the best.

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S3: A lot of chat about hummus.

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S2: Yeah, a lot of chat about hummus and you know,

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S2: the correct way to eat it, which I have thoughts,

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S2: but we can separate pod.

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S1: Yeah, let's save that for the bonus episodes for our

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S1: Patreon subscribers. Last week we went deep on killers of

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S1: the Flower Moon, the Martin Scorsese film, and I think

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S1: it's safe to say we all liked it. I think

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S1: there was like a spectrum of opinion, but the three

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S1: of us thought, this is a pretty good and important

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S1: movie by our guy Marty. I thought it would be

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S1: interesting to look at how many people actually watched this movie,

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S1: because this is one that, like the film borrows the

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S1: film heads in particular, like very excited about. But I

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S1: was not sure whether that would translate to the masses

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S1: flocking to cinemas for a couple of reasons. The first

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S1: one being like, it's long. We talked about that. I

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S1: think that's a ridiculous excuse for a ridiculous criticism of

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S1: the movie, but I do accept that people have a

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S1: lot of time pressures on their hands, and they may

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S1: not want to commit nearly four hours to seeing a film.

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S1: The other reason why I thought maybe people wouldn't turn

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S1: out to see this movie, is that the actors strike

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S1: means the actors can't promote it. So you've got big

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S1: name stars like Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro, who

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S1: just can't see anything at the moment because of the strike.

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S1: And that lack of promotion may impact the marketing of

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S1: the film. And then the third reason is this was

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S1: a movie funded by Apple TV+, which means that it's

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S1: only going to be in cinemas for a few weeks

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S1: and then goes to streaming. So basically a lot of

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S1: factors counting against this movie having a big opening at

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S1: the box office. But as it turns out, people were

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S1: keen to see this film. The film's opening weekend box office.

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S1: The take globally was 44 million USD, which is a

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S1: number that might not mean anything to normal people. Box

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S1: office heads immediately can place that, you know, where is

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S1: that in the top 20 of the year so far.

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S1: But for context, that makes it Martin Scorsese's third biggest

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S1: release ever, following Shutter Island and The Departed. Interestingly, Wolf

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S1: of Wall Street like not in the top three. That

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S1: surprised me.

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S2: That does surprise me, although, like keeping in mind the

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S2: movie was made for like $200 million, so he needs

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S2: to really have like five more good opening weekends.

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S1: That is true. That is true. The movie was received

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S1: like quite well from audiences, as the numbers suggest, but

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S1: it was still beaten in the US and around the

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S1: world by a little pop star called Taylor Swift. However.

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S2: Oh yeah, and I know of her boyfriend. It was

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S2: my favorite tight end.

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S1: Neither of us have seen the era's concert film yet.

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S1: Is that right?

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S3: I'm going this Friday. I'm really excited. I've been seeing, like,

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S3: the TikToks of the cinemas going off, and I'm hoping

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S3: that that happens during my screening session as well.

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S2: No. Well, I've seen Oppenheimer and Killers of the Flower Moon.

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S2: I only watched like two three hour films a year,

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S2: so I'm skipping Taylorsville now. I will see it and

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S2: I'm not surprised it was beaten. But yeah, it is

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S2: interesting because like, I can probably one of the most

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S2: pods I've had the most texts from after last week,

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S2: lots of my friends went and saw killers of the

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S2: Flower Moon. I was getting roasted. Like, obviously I loved

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S2: the movie. So many of my mates were like, can't

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S2: wait to see the Thomas Mitchell cut like we did

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S2: 15 minutes missing. That's what you were more moron. So yes,

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S2: I and even before we came into this record, this product,

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S2: a colleague of ours was like, hey, love the pod.

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S2: But seriously, what are you editing? Martin Scorsese? So yeah,

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S2: I take that back. Scorsese if you're listening, which I

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S2: assume you are, but I'm glad to see it's doing

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S2: really well and I'll be curious to see if it

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S2: does if he makes the budget back, because that's a

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S2: huge number.

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S1: Yeah, it's an interesting one because like, it's this Apple

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S1: TV thing. So I think they're hoping to make as

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S1: much money as possible. And there was some criticism that Netflix,

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S1: when they did The Irishman, left a lot of money

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S1: on the table, but only putting that in cinemas for

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S1: like 2 or 3 weeks, I think. But Apple TV

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S1: seems less concerned with box office figures than with whether

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S1: this kind of leads to conversions of people becoming subscribers,

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S1: which is a really complicated metric. It seems kind of

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S1: hard to tell in this day and age. Like, does

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S1: this movie make its money back, or was this movie

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S1: like a good bang for buck return? But I certainly

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S1: am like happily surprised by how many people are sitting

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S1: through it.

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S3: Yeah, and I'd like to suggest we were comparing it

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S3: to Bob and Hymer before. I'd like to suggest some

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S3: names for what we could tell this.

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S1: Yeah, Martin Scorsese sort of double feature.

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S3: Yeah, yeah. Let me run a few by you, Swift moon.

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S2: Okay. Are there better ones?

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S3: Tough crowd. Okay, okay. Killer Swift.

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S1: That's good, that's good.

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S3: One more Taylor flower.

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S2: Okay. What about school, Swifty?

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S3: Guys, go.

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S1: Swifty is good. Go! Swifty is.

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S3: Good. Is unfair. That reaction was unwarranted.

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S1: Oh, that was objectively very funny. And he just came up.

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S2: Taylor moon. Come on, man, you're supposed to be the actor.

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S3: Yeah, Taylor means quite good. Also, I want to follow up.

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S3: Did you get any texts about your sausage roll eating

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S3: during the film?

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S2: Yeah, I did get a few texts about that as well.

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S2: Most people were shaming me for not paying the $7

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S2: for the sausage roll. So thank you for continuing to

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S2: assassinate my character.

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S1: Um, I think I'm interested in what you guys think about, like,

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S1: the success these two movies are having, because they are

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S1: kind of the biggest releases since Bobby and Oppenheimer. And

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S1: I think my kind of theories may be that kind

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S1: of first Bob Anaheim moment either reawakened a love of

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S1: cinema in a lot of people, or for a lot

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S1: of younger people. post-Covid was their first experience with really

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S1: giving cinemas ago. And then because of the strikes since

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S1: then there haven't really been as many tentpole releases. So

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S1: now there are things for like different demographics, different ages,

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S1: different kind of family things, or like couple movies or

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S1: solo or whatever. Between killers of the Flower Moon and

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S1: Details Swift eras film. You've kind of got this, this

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S1: broad sweep of potential audiences, and I think it means

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S1: that people like the movies, like they'll want to go

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S1: and see things, and they would have seen stuff if

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S1: they'd been more out this year. But there just isn't.

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S1: And I kind of like, again, I don't want to

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S1: be the negative guy when we're talking about positive things,

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S1: about people going to go see movies, but there isn't

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S1: really another big film out. I think between now and

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S1: the end of the year, I.

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S2: Disagree, and I can tell you exactly the exact pipeline

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S2: that Taylor Swift fans will go to, and that kills

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S2: the Flower moon we'll go to. The killers of the

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S2: Flower Moon will be funneled directly into Napoleon. True, coming

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S2: out 23rd November.

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S3: Another epic film is yes.

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S2: It's two hours and 25 minutes. So, you know, they've

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S2: kind of it's crazy.

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S1: That would have been epic like ten years ago. But

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S1: now it's like that's an hour less.

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S2: So wow. God, they really got it done quickly. And

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S2: then I feel like the Swifties will be funneled into Wonka,

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S2: which comes out on, I think like end of December.

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S1: That feels like a really mean thing to say about

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S1: the Swifties.

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S2: Yeah, they're famously chill, so they'll be fine. But but

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S2: you know, no, I mean like, it's light and fun

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S2: and then like Napoleon is this big epic thing. So

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S2: like there are two massive releases and I think even

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S2: way back when we were in the Bob and Heimer days,

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S2: we talked about these two is like we did another,

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S2: you know, they're not they're a little maybe two weeks apart,

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S2: but like another paired release of like, oh, these huge

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S2: kind of like tonally different films. We'll be getting people

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S2: back to cinemas. I personally am very excited for Napoleon.

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S2: He was like a French emperor.

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S3: Small, small guy, right?

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S2: Every time. No, I think they're going to be really big.

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S2: And like, you know, we all love Boxing Day, like

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S2: Boxing Day movies. Huge vibes.

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S1: I'm planning this year on going to the Boxing Day

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S1: test at the MCG for the first time. It's really

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S1: versus Pakistan. Pakistan's the only thing that could prime me

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S1: away from Wonka. Yeah, but I look forward to seeing

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S1: it eventually.

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S3: So I went to the Boxing Day test on one

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S3: year and prepare yourself to do about like 12 hours

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S3: of just waves, like the crowd participation. You know, I go.

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S1: To the members and we famously don't wave. No, we.

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S3: Get boom, you get booed. I'm sorry. I didn't realize

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S3: you would be in such.

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S1: I actually don't have mic membership. Everyone listening to this one.

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S1: So invite me to the mic. I will happily accept

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S1: your your ticket and we'll.

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S3: Take a slice of that high life. I like your

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S3: optimism that it's about people falling in love with cinema again,

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S3: but I also think people just really like Taylor Swift.

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S1: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I mean,

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S1: it is pretty astonishing that this movie didn't have a

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S1: lot of buildup, like, I mean, it had decent marketing.

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S1: It has Taylor Swift posting and talking about it, but

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S1: it's pretty Sonic like. This became the biggest concert film

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S1: ever in its first week. I think we made 100

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S1: million USD. That's pretty extraordinary stuff from her.

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S2: But then obviously Beyonce is coming out soon and I

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S2: feel like you must have some thoughts on that.

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S1: I thought it was very smart and cool that Beyonce

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S1: went to the premiere in LA with Taylor Swift, and

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S1: I think was very quickly diffusing any sense that this

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S1: is like a redo of the VMAs or there's any

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S1: kind of competitive element here, like I'm backing Taylor Taylor's

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S1: backing me. A rising tide lifts all boats. I don't

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S1: think the Beyonce film will be quite as big. I

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S1: haven't seen the film yet. I'm kind of mixed on

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S1: like Mel. You said you are seeing it. Are you

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S1: also hoping to see the concert yourself? Do you think

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S1: that your risk you're risking spoiling yourself of the lights.

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S3: Hoping to see the concert? Myself? As of yet I

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S3: do not have tickets, so hedging out. Yeah.

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S2: Organizing the tickets. You can.

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S1: Also give me.

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S3: Tickets, but no, I've always kind of held fast that

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S3: these are very different experiences and you're not going to

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S3: the concert in the film for the same experience. But

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S3: I will say from the premiere of When Taylor Went

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S3: with Beyonce, I think about the clip of Adam Sandler

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S3: dancing at that premiere by himself at least once a day.

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S1: And we seen we saw Sandler, like at the actual

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S1: Swift concert as well. Like the guys. The guy's a

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S1: big fan. Yeah, a real big fan.

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S2: But it was it was really nice to see two of,

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S2: I guess, the most important female pop stars in the

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S2: current landscape together, because of course, historically we haven't treated

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S2: our female pop stars that well.

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S1: I'm so glad you served me up. That wonderful segue.

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S1: That was brilliant stuff. So the main focus, as you

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S1: may glean from that wonderful introduction from my guy Thomas,

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S1: the main focus of today's episode is Britney Spears and

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S1: her very soon to be released memoir. In fact, we're

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S1: recording this the day before the memoir is coming out.

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S1: You'll be listening to this the day after the memoir

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S1: is released. And I think as well as talking about

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S1: Britney and the book, it's also an opportunity to talk about.

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S1: The celebrity memoirs are a bit more generally. Before we

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S1: get into it, I wanted to to share this. I

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S1: don't know if you guys saw this funny story pop

238
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S1: up this week. So we got this email a couple

239
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S1: of weeks ago from the PR managing the release of

240
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S1: the book, saying, you know, a Britney bus was going

241
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S1: to drive around Sydney, and a Britney in quotation marks

242
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S1: is what the email said was going to pop out

243
00:10:28,150 --> 00:10:31,719
S1: and like, hand-deliver copies. It seemed very clear to us

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00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,780
S1: immediately that this was a Britney Spears impersonator. This is not,

245
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S1: in fact, Britney Spears herself coming to Sydney and dropping

246
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S1: off copies of a book to media outlets one by one. So. Well, okay,

247
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S1: that's interesting. This will be fun. But like, let's not

248
00:10:44,740 --> 00:10:47,770
S1: get too carried away with it. I think. Last week,

249
00:10:47,770 --> 00:10:52,180
S1: Concrete Playground, the online site, put up a story and

250
00:10:52,179 --> 00:10:54,550
S1: it was sort of headline like, you know, Britney Spears

251
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S1: will be in Sydney delivering copies of her books around

252
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S1: the place, and people lost their minds. There was like

253
00:11:01,179 --> 00:11:04,360
S1: so many posts and social media, follow up stories, TikToks

254
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,390
S1: being like, oh my God, Britney Spears is like debuting

255
00:11:07,390 --> 00:11:10,360
S1: her book in Sydney this Wednesday. This is crazy. And

256
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,640
S1: then people pointed out Concrete Playground. We all got the

257
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,309
S1: same materials. We all figured out what was happening here.

258
00:11:15,309 --> 00:11:17,170
S1: You're the only ones who wrote it up like it

259
00:11:17,170 --> 00:11:20,410
S1: was a real thing. And then they quickly deleted the post.

260
00:11:20,410 --> 00:11:24,400
S1: And I think everyone now has like sanity has prevailed. So.

261
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,559
S1: But you know, what that does sort of show is

262
00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,650
S1: that there is still an enormous amount of interest in

263
00:11:29,650 --> 00:11:30,370
S1: Britney Spears.

264
00:11:30,370 --> 00:11:33,160
S3: Yeah, I was surprised about the Britney bus and the

265
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,460
S3: Britney impersonator. I mean, she's coming here tomorrow and that's

266
00:11:36,460 --> 00:11:39,729
S3: how we'll be receiving our books. I was surprised that

267
00:11:39,730 --> 00:11:43,360
S3: they were doing that level of kind of gimmick around it,

268
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,220
S3: because this is a book that's already kind of top

269
00:11:45,220 --> 00:11:47,650
S3: of Amazon in terms of pre-sales. Like they don't really

270
00:11:47,650 --> 00:11:50,620
S3: need that kind of marketing support for this book.

271
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S1: I also wonder whether Britney Spears herself is aware that

272
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,010
S1: this is how her memoir is being sold, because and

273
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S1: I think this is what our conversation will get into.

274
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S1: But Britney Spears very complicated relationship to celebrity and the

275
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S1: representation of her publicly. And look, I guess she's stoked

276
00:12:08,350 --> 00:12:10,689
S1: that her book will probably sell quite well. And these

277
00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:13,930
S1: sorts of PR initiatives will help get attention for it,

278
00:12:13,929 --> 00:12:17,500
S1: but it feels a bit reductive to turn this memoir,

279
00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:21,130
S1: which is, by all accounts, her grappling with her rise

280
00:12:21,130 --> 00:12:23,980
S1: to fame, the cost of it, the way that she

281
00:12:23,980 --> 00:12:26,860
S1: was treated by her family, people around her, the American

282
00:12:26,860 --> 00:12:29,170
S1: legal system, the industry, all these sorts of things. And

283
00:12:29,170 --> 00:12:32,000
S1: then someone who looks like, you know, early 2000 era

284
00:12:32,020 --> 00:12:34,330
S1: Britney will be running around being like, I'm Britney Spears

285
00:12:34,330 --> 00:12:36,670
S1: by my book. Everything's great. That feels a bit odd,

286
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S1: doesn't it?

287
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,660
S2: I'm actually not convinced that it wasn't Britney's idea, to be.

288
00:12:40,660 --> 00:12:41,920
S1: Honest. Okay, also.

289
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,069
S3: True. I am excited to see what era Britney it is.

290
00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:49,510
S1: So as I mentioned, we haven't read the book yet,

291
00:12:49,510 --> 00:12:52,030
S1: but there's been a few excerpts out and about. There's

292
00:12:52,030 --> 00:12:55,150
S1: been a few big pieces from other international media outlets

293
00:12:55,150 --> 00:12:58,090
S1: that have sort of dived into what it covers. Mel,

294
00:12:58,090 --> 00:13:01,210
S1: what what's making headlines so far from this memoir? Why

295
00:13:01,210 --> 00:13:03,510
S1: has it gotten people interested?

296
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,400
S3: I think the main headline came from an excerpt that

297
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,580
S3: was in people last week, and it was from the

298
00:13:09,580 --> 00:13:11,500
S3: part of the book where Britney is talking about her

299
00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:14,650
S3: relationship with Justin Timberlake and about how when they were

300
00:13:14,650 --> 00:13:18,010
S3: together and quite young, she fell pregnant. She wanted to

301
00:13:18,010 --> 00:13:20,260
S3: keep the baby, and Justin didn't want to keep the baby,

302
00:13:20,260 --> 00:13:22,900
S3: and she ended up having an abortion. So that was

303
00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:26,890
S3: something that hadn't been publicly discussed or revealed before. So

304
00:13:26,890 --> 00:13:28,870
S3: that got heaps of attention. I think. Also, there was

305
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:31,839
S3: a strange detail about how afterwards she was very sad

306
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,360
S3: and Justin kind of got a guitar and started playing

307
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,120
S3: music to her, thinking that would fix the problem. And

308
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,699
S3: since then there's actually been a lot of hate towards

309
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,819
S3: Justin on his Instagram page. He's not addressed any of

310
00:13:42,820 --> 00:13:45,100
S3: the claims in it, but that kind of was the

311
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:48,040
S3: earliest release from this book, and is maybe a sign

312
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,910
S3: of the other facts that are to come.

313
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,829
S2: Yeah, it's funny how they're like, after everything that's clearly

314
00:13:53,830 --> 00:13:55,480
S2: in the book. And I know that she talks about, obviously,

315
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,650
S2: the conservatorship and, you know, her journey to fame and

316
00:13:59,650 --> 00:14:02,710
S2: like weird stuff I read about, like, you know, interviews

317
00:14:02,710 --> 00:14:04,929
S2: at ten years old, like asking her if she has

318
00:14:04,929 --> 00:14:06,850
S2: a boyfriend. And like, all the very weird experience she has,

319
00:14:06,850 --> 00:14:09,730
S2: but like, and this was, like, so unsurprising, the fact

320
00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:12,430
S2: that it's, you know, this kind of like, salacious thing

321
00:14:12,429 --> 00:14:15,040
S2: about Justin Timberlake is, of course, what he's, like, been

322
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,040
S2: picked out and is now dominating headlines because I guess, like,

323
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,400
S2: you know, the fascination with them was so weird and like,

324
00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:24,130
S2: you know, they were this kind of like, denim couple

325
00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:26,590
S2: that was so famous together. But of course, like, even

326
00:14:26,590 --> 00:14:29,830
S2: now with all that Britney's done, I guess, like the

327
00:14:29,830 --> 00:14:32,170
S2: big thing is still being related to this other pop

328
00:14:32,170 --> 00:14:33,490
S2: star that she was with. Like, yeah.

329
00:14:33,490 --> 00:14:36,640
S1: I do think, like when word of this memoir came

330
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,170
S1: out and we should talk about the fact that, like,

331
00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:41,800
S1: this is landing at a moment where we're getting quite

332
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,010
S1: a lot of, like, Britney reclaiming the narrative sort of stuff,

333
00:14:45,010 --> 00:14:47,800
S1: like we've had the documentary, we've just had her, since

334
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,670
S1: her conservatorship, be able to express her thoughts and feelings

335
00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:54,070
S1: about all these things more clearly. So I think there

336
00:14:54,070 --> 00:14:55,990
S1: were always going to be two parts of this memoir

337
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:58,510
S1: that people are going to keep an eye out for.

338
00:14:58,510 --> 00:15:00,610
S1: I think one is just everything to do with the

339
00:15:00,610 --> 00:15:03,490
S1: legal stuff around her, and what happened to her during

340
00:15:03,490 --> 00:15:05,770
S1: that time and how she survived and how she dealt

341
00:15:05,770 --> 00:15:08,550
S1: with it. And then of. Course, the Justin Timberlake stuff

342
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:11,130
S1: like that seems to be this well, that everyone wants

343
00:15:11,130 --> 00:15:12,930
S1: to go back to because it is so tied up

344
00:15:12,930 --> 00:15:18,570
S1: with their artistry, like Justin Timberlake's Crimea River, Britney's Every time,

345
00:15:18,570 --> 00:15:22,080
S1: which interestingly, in one excerpt I read, she says that

346
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,650
S1: Every time was not intended to be a response to

347
00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:27,420
S1: Crimea River. Every time, by the way, is my favorite

348
00:15:27,420 --> 00:15:29,280
S1: Britney Spears song. I think it was the first one

349
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,470
S1: she wrote as well, the first one that she wrote

350
00:15:31,470 --> 00:15:34,500
S1: herself that was released. She says it's not actually a

351
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:36,570
S1: response to Crimea River. It was actually written about the

352
00:15:36,570 --> 00:15:39,930
S1: loss of their child together. And I think when you

353
00:15:39,930 --> 00:15:41,660
S1: go back and I think I've probably talked about this on,

354
00:15:41,850 --> 00:15:43,650
S1: on this podcast before, when you go back and you

355
00:15:43,650 --> 00:15:45,900
S1: listen to it and you watch the music video, it

356
00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,930
S1: kind of makes sense, like what she was talking about.

357
00:15:52,040 --> 00:16:03,220
UU: Why carry on without me? Every time I try. My wings.

358
00:16:03,230 --> 00:16:09,860
UU: I feel so small. I guess I need you. And

359
00:16:10,010 --> 00:16:15,460
UU: every time I see you in my dreams, I see your.

360
00:16:15,810 --> 00:16:22,609
UU: This is haunting. Hey, I guess I need you. A bit.

361
00:16:26,830 --> 00:16:31,600
S1: Like, I think it's so hard to separate out our

362
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:38,790
S1: understanding of Britney Spears. From the relationship she had with JT.

363
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:41,210
S1: But at the same time, this goes to your point, Thomas.

364
00:16:41,220 --> 00:16:44,160
S1: It feels sort of gross, even though she's opening up

365
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,860
S1: the conversation to be like, okay, now in 2023, we're

366
00:16:46,860 --> 00:16:49,650
S1: talking about Brittany. Let's go back to this like relationship

367
00:16:49,650 --> 00:16:51,990
S1: and what happened there. I want to ask you guys

368
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:57,090
S1: about like how comfortable like we should feel about that.

369
00:16:57,090 --> 00:16:59,760
S1: Like she's talking about it. So I guess it's okay.

370
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,720
S1: But then these details around. Well no, he he says

371
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,450
S1: that she cheated on him, but she's saying that. No,

372
00:17:06,450 --> 00:17:09,350
S1: he actually cheated on her with this singer from All Saints.

373
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,240
S1: There's an element of that that is, like, so interesting

374
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,930
S1: and gossipy that makes us care about celebs, but also

375
00:17:15,930 --> 00:17:19,770
S1: feels salacious and unnecessary because the latter part of Britney's

376
00:17:19,770 --> 00:17:22,590
S1: career is all about these much heavier things. Is it

377
00:17:22,590 --> 00:17:24,000
S1: weird to hold those two ideas in a head at

378
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:24,690
S1: the same time?

379
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,270
S3: Yeah, I think it is. And I think the concern

380
00:17:27,270 --> 00:17:30,570
S3: is that the book's overriding message, which from the early

381
00:17:30,570 --> 00:17:33,570
S3: reviews that I have read from outlets that have managed

382
00:17:33,570 --> 00:17:36,300
S3: to get access to the book through unauthorised means, is

383
00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:39,540
S3: that it is pretty much a story of exploitation. And

384
00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:42,720
S3: that is the message she tries to drum home. But

385
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,970
S3: then it is interesting that this excerpt was the one

386
00:17:44,970 --> 00:17:47,159
S3: that she chose to publish, which is obviously probably a

387
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:48,600
S3: PR move to get because she.

388
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,129
S1: Knows everyone, people like us. That's what we want to

389
00:17:50,130 --> 00:17:50,670
S1: talk about, right?

390
00:17:50,670 --> 00:17:52,680
S3: Yeah, yeah. And people who might be put off hearing

391
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,990
S3: about the exploitation of young women because they think that

392
00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:56,909
S3: that's a story that I've heard before, are going to

393
00:17:56,910 --> 00:17:59,639
S3: be drawn in through this more salacious angle. But from

394
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,250
S3: what I have read of it so far, it isn't

395
00:18:02,250 --> 00:18:04,080
S3: that salacious as a book. And of course, there are

396
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,359
S3: things that people are taking away like, oh, her and

397
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,970
S3: her mom drank cocktails when they were 13, but the

398
00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:11,640
S3: message is one about the system that kind of created

399
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,400
S3: her and then threw her under a bus.

400
00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:14,820
S1: Yeah, you and me both, sister.

401
00:18:15,570 --> 00:18:18,120
S2: I think it speaks to, like, how we still don't

402
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,520
S2: feel quite comfortable as well with the Britney story. Like

403
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,869
S2: it's much easier to discuss her as a concept when

404
00:18:24,869 --> 00:18:26,520
S2: we are still in that kind of safe space of,

405
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,100
S2: like the gossipy celebrity land where it's like, oh my God,

406
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:31,379
S2: and like, how fucking crazy that she saves her head

407
00:18:31,380 --> 00:18:34,410
S2: and stuff like. And then the more recent like, dialogue

408
00:18:34,410 --> 00:18:37,109
S2: around Britney has been far heavier and far more serious.

409
00:18:37,109 --> 00:18:39,060
S2: And I think a lot of people who consider themselves like,

410
00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:42,030
S2: you know, invested in Britney's career or Britney fans probably

411
00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:44,850
S2: didn't quite know how to approach like conversations around the

412
00:18:44,850 --> 00:18:47,520
S2: conservatorship or what her actual treatment has been like in

413
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,859
S2: the media or her the arc of her career and

414
00:18:49,859 --> 00:18:52,200
S2: how messed up that really is. So it's easier and like,

415
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,750
S2: more comfortable to just be like, fuck yeah, let's talk

416
00:18:54,750 --> 00:18:57,000
S2: about JT. Let's talk about when she saved her head.

417
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:58,979
S2: Let's go back to that weird tabloid era.

418
00:18:59,190 --> 00:19:01,980
S1: Memoirs, by their very nature, are a one sided telling

419
00:19:01,980 --> 00:19:06,030
S1: of an event or a situation. That's the point. As journalists,

420
00:19:06,030 --> 00:19:08,280
S1: when we're trying to tell a story about something that's

421
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,129
S1: happened or about two people, what happened to them, it's

422
00:19:11,130 --> 00:19:14,700
S1: kind of incumbent upon us to get these different perspectives

423
00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:17,640
S1: with something like the Britney Spears memoir, like, that's not

424
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,570
S1: her goal here. It is just to tell her perspective

425
00:19:21,570 --> 00:19:24,750
S1: on elements of her life. And when it comes to

426
00:19:24,750 --> 00:19:28,470
S1: things that have to do with other public figures, like,

427
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:31,350
S1: for example, Justin Timberlake, you know, he doesn't get a

428
00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:34,440
S1: right of reply. I'm not suggesting that it's her duty

429
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,629
S1: to seek a right of reply to memoir. That's the

430
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:38,250
S1: point of it. She's allowed to tell her story as

431
00:19:38,250 --> 00:19:40,619
S1: it is. But the way that this stuff these days

432
00:19:40,619 --> 00:19:44,220
S1: land so quickly in the media ecosystem is pretty interesting.

433
00:19:44,220 --> 00:19:49,080
S1: You know, before we had gossip magazines, podcasts, news outlets

434
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,960
S1: that just ran, you know, excerpts right away and then

435
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,780
S1: digested those experts and the kind of seven things you

436
00:19:54,780 --> 00:19:57,690
S1: you have to read from this memoir. People would read

437
00:19:57,690 --> 00:19:59,879
S1: a book and, like, sit with it and talk about it,

438
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,990
S1: whereas now the book just kind of lands as this

439
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:08,270
S1: piece of like. Considered factual information for us to kind

440
00:20:08,270 --> 00:20:10,520
S1: of chew over, but in this instance, it doesn't have

441
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,609
S1: the other person's perspective. Is that a problem?

442
00:20:14,060 --> 00:20:16,640
S3: Well, I think that that, as you said, that is

443
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,909
S3: what mammals are by their nature. They're one person's point

444
00:20:19,910 --> 00:20:23,180
S3: of view. And I guess we all know just from

445
00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:27,320
S3: experience that memory is fallible. And our recordings of memories

446
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,290
S3: are very different. I mean, Thomas's column on the weekend,

447
00:20:30,530 --> 00:20:34,130
S3: in which we're often making cameos, is obviously a sign

448
00:20:34,130 --> 00:20:35,570
S3: of of failing memory.

449
00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:35,869
S4: Yeah.

450
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,929
S1: When Thomas is writing his memoir live for us every week.

451
00:20:38,930 --> 00:20:40,040
S1: Isn't he through this call?

452
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:40,459
S4: Yeah.

453
00:20:41,330 --> 00:20:43,490
S3: You do see, like, issues with this come up time

454
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:44,869
S3: and time again. Like even we were talking about the

455
00:20:44,869 --> 00:20:48,200
S3: Silverchair documentary, the two band members putting out their memoir

456
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,710
S3: without Daniel Johns being involved like it is fraught territory.

457
00:20:51,710 --> 00:20:54,979
S3: I think different writers handle it in different ways. Some

458
00:20:54,980 --> 00:20:56,959
S3: we'll send out an advance copy of the book, and

459
00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,850
S3: I mean, we don't know if maybe Britney did do

460
00:20:58,850 --> 00:21:01,790
S3: that with Justin Timberlake. We don't know. He hasn't spoken

461
00:21:01,790 --> 00:21:03,920
S3: about it. Others won't do any of that.

462
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,800
S1: Well, here's a funny one. Naomi Klein, the author. Right.

463
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,980
S1: She's just recently written a book called doppelganger, where she

464
00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:14,000
S1: talks about, you know, her being mistaken for other Naomi

465
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,939
S1: Wolf and like, just concept of doppelgangers or whatever. I'm

466
00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:19,850
S1: actually in this book, there's a story she tells about

467
00:21:19,850 --> 00:21:22,070
S1: a time me and a friend of mine, Omar Sarkar,

468
00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:24,650
S1: the poet, were mistaken for someone else. It was very

469
00:21:24,650 --> 00:21:28,369
S1: jarring to read that in this book. And my friend Omar,

470
00:21:28,369 --> 00:21:30,619
S1: like tweeted Naomi about it and she said, oh, actually

471
00:21:30,619 --> 00:21:33,199
S1: meant to send you guys a copy of this before

472
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,510
S1: to check whether you're okay with the way I covered it.

473
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:38,410
S1: Did it not arrive like Naomi did not arrive, so

474
00:21:38,410 --> 00:21:38,660
S1: she sent.

475
00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:39,350
S2: It to the wrong oseman?

476
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,310
S1: So this this is the thing that happens in memoirs

477
00:21:43,310 --> 00:21:46,159
S1: and even, you know, maybe best intentions. Things can get

478
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,780
S1: lost on the way. And there was also the issue,

479
00:21:47,780 --> 00:21:51,139
S1: I think, with the Prince Harry memoir, like, people are

480
00:21:51,140 --> 00:21:53,270
S1: fact checking. Like he said, he got a PlayStation for

481
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:55,639
S1: his fifth birthday and be like, PlayStation didn't exist. There

482
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,250
S1: was something like that. So there are issues. But like,

483
00:21:58,430 --> 00:21:59,960
S1: I'm kind of interested in your view on this as

484
00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:01,130
S1: the learned book person.

485
00:22:01,690 --> 00:22:02,040
S4: Should.

486
00:22:02,450 --> 00:22:03,439
S3: Obtain, should.

487
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,190
S1: Memoirs be fact checked and should they be required to

488
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:09,650
S1: include rights of reply? And I want to be very clear.

489
00:22:09,650 --> 00:22:12,139
S1: I'm not saying this because I think JT deserves the

490
00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:14,570
S1: right to have his fair say. He's had many opportunities

491
00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:16,340
S1: to have his fair say more just mean in a

492
00:22:16,340 --> 00:22:17,720
S1: general sense.

493
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:20,030
S3: Oh man, when you open that can of worms, where

494
00:22:20,030 --> 00:22:22,610
S3: do you stop? I think, you know, I think you

495
00:22:22,609 --> 00:22:25,310
S3: can verify some facts, but memory is always going to

496
00:22:25,310 --> 00:22:27,530
S3: be contested, isn't it? And I think when you get

497
00:22:27,530 --> 00:22:30,260
S3: down to it just to might say, you know, might

498
00:22:30,260 --> 00:22:32,090
S3: just have a different take on that situation.

499
00:22:32,690 --> 00:22:35,030
S1: Britney's allowed to be like, this is my memory, this

500
00:22:35,030 --> 00:22:37,250
S1: is my understanding of these events. I'm just putting it

501
00:22:37,250 --> 00:22:38,150
S1: out there. That should be allowed.

502
00:22:38,150 --> 00:22:39,379
S3: Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, I.

503
00:22:39,380 --> 00:22:40,910
S1: Started like Sarah Ferguson.

504
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:42,850
S4: Is that what you're saying?

505
00:22:42,859 --> 00:22:45,649
S3: You you write what you want? Unless it's about me.

506
00:22:45,650 --> 00:22:49,909
S3: In which case will be fact checking that. No. I think, though,

507
00:22:49,910 --> 00:22:52,490
S3: that if you're a reader and there's something really obviously

508
00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:55,790
S3: factually wrong, like if she's mentioning, like 1994 and all

509
00:22:55,790 --> 00:22:57,920
S3: of us know it was in 2000, I think, then

510
00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,840
S3: you probably want to fix that up because it disturbs

511
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,590
S3: the flow. But otherwise, I think no, people have different memories.

512
00:23:03,590 --> 00:23:06,230
S3: And part of the interest of reading a memoir is

513
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:09,290
S3: seeing where their memory differs to other people. And, Tom.

514
00:23:09,290 --> 00:23:10,160
S1: As you've read a book.

515
00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:16,520
S4: Just one, just one. Let's start.

516
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,030
S1: That again.

517
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,600
S2: Well, can I just say I for one, personally looking

518
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,840
S2: forward to Hassan Minaj's memoir, which will, of course be batshit.

519
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,120
S4: For the falsehoods because.

520
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,240
S2: I mean, his memory is famously failing. Yeah, that's.

521
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,280
S1: A thorny issue. Yeah. I don't think we've got time

522
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,740
S1: to get into on this one. But, Tom, you've written

523
00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:35,570
S1: a book. I mean, this idea of like, what you're

524
00:23:35,570 --> 00:23:40,609
S1: allowed to include. Do books memoirs have to be held

525
00:23:40,609 --> 00:23:43,100
S1: to the same standard as like a news story, for example?

526
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:44,030
S1: What do you think about that?

527
00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:47,090
S2: Well, yeah, mine was interesting cause it was like, as

528
00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:51,560
S2: the only published author on the pod, um, well, mine

529
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,900
S2: was a collection of other people's stories, which I then wrote.

530
00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:55,399
S2: So obviously I had to get I had to send

531
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,050
S2: all get approval from all these people.

532
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,970
S3: Did you have to or they just encouraged you to

533
00:23:58,970 --> 00:24:01,550
S3: do that? No ethical reasons. I think I had to.

534
00:24:01,550 --> 00:24:03,920
S2: I can't really remember my memories failing ironically, but I

535
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,020
S2: think I think I had to and there was a

536
00:24:06,020 --> 00:24:08,479
S2: fair bit of like, you know, obviously in the process

537
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,990
S2: of like interviewed these people. Then I wrote the stories up,

538
00:24:11,010 --> 00:24:13,100
S2: then we changed them, and there was a few occasions

539
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:16,139
S2: where they were like, oh, this doesn't feel like how like,

540
00:24:16,190 --> 00:24:18,050
S2: I know I told you like this, but it reads different.

541
00:24:18,050 --> 00:24:20,510
S2: And so there was a lot of process into it.

542
00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:22,939
S2: But yeah, I guess, like, I think it's so hard

543
00:24:22,940 --> 00:24:25,520
S2: with these celeb memoirs as well, because, you know, part

544
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:26,869
S2: of the joy of them is that we want to

545
00:24:26,869 --> 00:24:28,790
S2: like instantly get the takes and be like the five

546
00:24:28,790 --> 00:24:32,350
S2: biggest takeaways. So you almost like again, you're investing in

547
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,109
S2: it being true because like there's more to kind of

548
00:24:36,109 --> 00:24:39,080
S2: like get from these like salacious nuggets. So I think

549
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,970
S2: it's especially when it comes to like a celeb memoir,

550
00:24:40,970 --> 00:24:43,639
S2: there's just generally more eyes on it. So like there's

551
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,350
S2: more high chance of people being like, wait a minute,

552
00:24:45,350 --> 00:24:46,699
S2: this didn't happen like that. Yeah, I.

553
00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:48,920
S1: Think that makes sense. I think when it comes to

554
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,379
S1: dates and specifics, you probably it's in your interest as

555
00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:55,130
S1: the memoir writer to get as much right as possible.

556
00:24:55,130 --> 00:24:57,560
S1: Because if there are some of those, like sloppy mistakes,

557
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,840
S1: it can undermine other things that you really want to

558
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,510
S1: say that others might have an issue with. I think

559
00:25:02,510 --> 00:25:05,659
S1: specifically on this question of like, Britney Spears. Writing her

560
00:25:05,660 --> 00:25:09,560
S1: perspective about her relationships and, you know, her response and

561
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,869
S1: feelings about someone like Justin Timberlake. I kind of think

562
00:25:11,869 --> 00:25:14,030
S1: when you talk about people at that level, Justin Timberlake

563
00:25:14,030 --> 00:25:16,220
S1: has so many avenues through which he can get his

564
00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:19,310
S1: perspective out. I don't think it would really be fair

565
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:22,580
S1: to force Britney to look after everything she's been through

566
00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:24,260
S1: to be like, and now you need to have a

567
00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:27,170
S1: coda or an appendix where Justin Timberlake gets to like,

568
00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:29,750
S1: debunk everything you've said about him. If he wants to

569
00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:30,980
S1: tweet or Instagram.

570
00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:31,639
S4: Or sing a song.

571
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,820
S1: Sing a song, or sit down on 60 minutes or

572
00:25:34,820 --> 00:25:36,680
S1: write his own book, he's allowed to do that, right?

573
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,680
S1: That's that's the obvious response he's got.

574
00:25:38,690 --> 00:25:42,050
S2: But obviously we're assuming, like you might notice now, like

575
00:25:42,050 --> 00:25:43,220
S2: she obviously had a ghostwriter.

576
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:45,140
S3: I haven't actually seen the book, but they haven't talked

577
00:25:45,140 --> 00:25:48,619
S3: about the ghostwriter much. But yes, I presume she had help. Yeah.

578
00:25:48,619 --> 00:25:50,810
S2: But like, I don't know if this is worth mentioning,

579
00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:53,500
S2: but like, we all follow Britney Spears on Instagram. Yeah.

580
00:25:53,780 --> 00:25:55,399
S2: And we all know that she's had like issues in

581
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,400
S2: the past and a very intense few years. But like

582
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,030
S2: I must say, just from an outside perspective, some of

583
00:26:02,030 --> 00:26:05,179
S2: her most recent social media activity, it still seems like

584
00:26:05,180 --> 00:26:08,359
S2: she's like going through some stuff. And I think we've

585
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,760
S2: actually touched on this before, where I'm like this book

586
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,540
S2: and the resulting noise and intense media, I'm not sure

587
00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:16,460
S2: if she's doing like a press tour, but the intense

588
00:26:16,460 --> 00:26:19,370
S2: media pressure that will come for it, like, I don't know,

589
00:26:19,369 --> 00:26:22,190
S2: is it a bit. Dangerous for this to be happening

590
00:26:22,190 --> 00:26:22,520
S2: right now.

591
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,109
S1: Well, I was going to get to this later, but

592
00:26:24,109 --> 00:26:26,119
S1: we can talk about it now. It's like, what? What

593
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,790
S1: is the incentive for Britney to write this book at

594
00:26:28,790 --> 00:26:31,340
S1: this point in time? I feel like there's an obvious one,

595
00:26:31,340 --> 00:26:33,859
S1: which is she's still in this journey of reclaiming the

596
00:26:33,859 --> 00:26:36,979
S1: narrative and putting her own facts out there. There is

597
00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:38,929
S1: also the fact that she will make a lot of

598
00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:41,810
S1: money out of this, whether or not like, you know,

599
00:26:41,810 --> 00:26:45,619
S1: it's opening herself up to more criticism and media attention

600
00:26:45,619 --> 00:26:47,810
S1: that might be damaging it. Like at this stage, I

601
00:26:47,810 --> 00:26:49,369
S1: don't want to be the guy being like, we have

602
00:26:49,369 --> 00:26:52,040
S1: to tell Britney how to live her life again. She,

603
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,439
S1: you know, has been judged by court and whatever to

604
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,770
S1: be allowed to make those decisions. That sounds weirdly like

605
00:26:57,770 --> 00:27:00,830
S1: I'm defending the conservatorship system. I'm just saying, like, I

606
00:27:00,830 --> 00:27:03,260
S1: don't want to sort of, you know, play quarterback to

607
00:27:03,260 --> 00:27:06,080
S1: like her decision making process around this. But yeah, like,

608
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,650
S1: I mean, Mel, this question of why celebrities release memoirs,

609
00:27:09,650 --> 00:27:12,230
S1: how much of it is I want to get my

610
00:27:12,230 --> 00:27:14,990
S1: side of the story out versus I just need money

611
00:27:14,990 --> 00:27:16,969
S1: because no one's I don't have the rights to my

612
00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:19,129
S1: music anymore. I'm not making music. I'm not touring.

613
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:20,810
S3: I mean, I think a big part of it would

614
00:27:20,810 --> 00:27:22,940
S3: be that latter, and it was one of the biggest

615
00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:26,390
S3: deals that the publishing industry has seen. And I will

616
00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:29,060
S3: just clarify. Yes, there was a ghost writer called Sam Lansky,

617
00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:31,580
S3: who was a journalist and author and has done profiles

618
00:27:31,580 --> 00:27:34,190
S3: of a lot of big names, celebrities, Madonna and Adele

619
00:27:34,190 --> 00:27:36,679
S3: and the like, so seems like a fitting choice. But yes,

620
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,200
S3: I do think that a lot of it yes, is

621
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,780
S3: a need for money for some people, but I do

622
00:27:41,780 --> 00:27:44,660
S3: think that it is an extension of the kind of

623
00:27:44,660 --> 00:27:48,380
S3: ownership of their stories that we've increasingly seen celebrities have

624
00:27:48,380 --> 00:27:51,800
S3: in the social media era, in terms of their Instagrams

625
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,010
S3: and social media presence, doing their own documentaries in the

626
00:27:55,010 --> 00:27:57,970
S3: way it was seen. Taylor and Selena. I think it's become,

627
00:27:57,980 --> 00:28:00,250
S3: as you talked about Beckham. Yeah, I think it's a

628
00:28:00,260 --> 00:28:03,350
S3: really an extension of of that particularly. And in this

629
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:05,630
S3: case for Britney, it's kind of a logical thing to

630
00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:07,640
S3: do in a way. As a final step in that

631
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,129
S3: reclamation of who she is and the rewriting of the

632
00:28:10,130 --> 00:28:11,480
S3: narrative of the past.

633
00:28:11,780 --> 00:28:13,190
S1: It's good enough excuse for you, Thomas.

634
00:28:13,340 --> 00:28:15,080
S2: Yeah. Seems fitting. Seems good.

635
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:15,980
S3: Why'd you do it?

636
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,410
S2: My mom wasn't a memoir. Nor am I a celebrity.

637
00:28:18,410 --> 00:28:19,159
S2: Not yet.

638
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:20,020
S4: Um.

639
00:28:20,420 --> 00:28:22,790
S2: But like, I do wonder, though, because, like, I think

640
00:28:23,030 --> 00:28:25,580
S2: we're in this, like, massive trend of it happening right

641
00:28:25,580 --> 00:28:28,100
S2: now that literally before we walked on here, we listed

642
00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:29,900
S2: like ten that have come out this year or coming out.

643
00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:32,899
S1: Let's mention Julia Fox has just come out, Jada Pinkett

644
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:35,180
S1: Smith's has just come out. And all of these have

645
00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:37,580
S1: been very buzzy memoirs. Yeah. Last year we.

646
00:28:37,580 --> 00:28:39,650
S2: Had greenlights the Matthew McConaughey one.

647
00:28:39,740 --> 00:28:44,900
S3: Barbra Streisand, Matthew Perry, the kind of non stop. I mean,

648
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:46,460
S3: they're big business for publishing.

649
00:28:46,460 --> 00:28:46,960
S4: Houses.

650
00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:50,210
S2: Racing to sign these celebrities up. But I do wonder

651
00:28:50,210 --> 00:28:53,270
S2: sometimes like because I do think the culture around the

652
00:28:53,270 --> 00:28:55,190
S2: celeb memoir is that we do kind of like with Britney,

653
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:57,260
S2: we get like drip fed it and the very first

654
00:28:57,260 --> 00:29:00,320
S2: take is always like five things you learn from blah.

655
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,310
S2: And so I wonder like. You know, if there was

656
00:29:03,310 --> 00:29:05,500
S2: ever a moment when even, say, Britney was maybe like,

657
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:07,480
S2: I might not put this in or I don't feel comfortable.

658
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,220
S2: Like I wonder if there are conversations between the publisher

659
00:29:09,220 --> 00:29:11,170
S2: and the talent to be like, well, you've got to

660
00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:11,650
S2: include some.

661
00:29:11,770 --> 00:29:14,020
S1: This is what we want the first stories to be about. Yeah.

662
00:29:14,530 --> 00:29:16,840
S2: That's that is what like lures people in.

663
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,630
S3: I think celebrity memoirs have to have a promise of revelation,

664
00:29:19,630 --> 00:29:22,060
S3: particularly like when people are, as we were just saying,

665
00:29:22,060 --> 00:29:24,610
S3: so like overexposed on their own platforms. I think you

666
00:29:24,610 --> 00:29:26,440
S3: have to tell people that they're going to get some

667
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,290
S3: insight that they don't already have into you, into the memoir.

668
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,110
S1: I'm going to try and explain what I was trying

669
00:29:32,110 --> 00:29:33,910
S1: to say early on. I'm not sure I nailed it

670
00:29:33,910 --> 00:29:37,090
S1: is I find it really hard to think about the

671
00:29:37,090 --> 00:29:41,110
S1: celebrity memoir as a piece of literature these days, because

672
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:44,050
S1: I don't think that most of the writing or the

673
00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:46,420
S1: consumption of it is being done through the perspective of

674
00:29:46,420 --> 00:29:48,700
S1: this is a book. This is a weighty tome that

675
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:50,890
S1: is 200 to 300 pages long, and I would treat

676
00:29:50,890 --> 00:29:54,160
S1: it as a distinct, like book in terms of how

677
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,310
S1: it is written and what it reveals about this person.

678
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,050
S1: I don't think most people who find out what is

679
00:29:59,050 --> 00:30:01,600
S1: in this memoir will do so by reading it, they'll

680
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,600
S1: find out about it, by listening to us, to reading

681
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,830
S1: stories that that pricey, what's in it? They'll read excerpts

682
00:30:08,830 --> 00:30:10,780
S1: on TikTok, or they'll have some explain to them on TikTok.

683
00:30:10,780 --> 00:30:14,230
S1: And this is not like a it's not me sort

684
00:30:14,230 --> 00:30:16,959
S1: of condemning the existence of memoirs like they exist and

685
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,450
S1: they should continue to exist, but the celebrity ones in

686
00:30:19,450 --> 00:30:23,470
S1: particular just feel like because of the way that they

687
00:30:23,470 --> 00:30:27,730
S1: received and consumed and dissected so quickly, it's just really

688
00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:29,320
S1: a way for a celebrity to put out a press

689
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,390
S1: release of like has seven things that I want you

690
00:30:31,390 --> 00:30:34,209
S1: to know, right? I think celebrities know that that's how

691
00:30:34,210 --> 00:30:37,690
S1: their memoirs are received. Publishers know that when they are

692
00:30:37,690 --> 00:30:39,640
S1: talking to them about it, and they hope that they

693
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,370
S1: sell a few million copies like Harry's one, which did

694
00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:44,470
S1: end up selling, I think, more than 3 million copies

695
00:30:44,470 --> 00:30:47,200
S1: in its first week or something, and made heaps of money.

696
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,810
S1: But I struggled to think of them as like a

697
00:30:49,810 --> 00:30:54,100
S1: standalone tome, rather than just an intervention in the way

698
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:57,580
S1: a celebrity might through a documentary, through an Instagram title,

699
00:30:57,580 --> 00:31:00,310
S1: through something else. Mel, you're looking at me like, you know,

700
00:31:00,310 --> 00:31:01,800
S1: you're disgusted with what I'm saying.

701
00:31:01,810 --> 00:31:03,100
S4: No, that was my what do you think?

702
00:31:03,250 --> 00:31:06,520
S3: Adding nodding face. Maybe that's a bit cynical. I think,

703
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,860
S3: like with all things, there are really good celebrity memoirs

704
00:31:08,860 --> 00:31:11,980
S3: and really bad ones, and I think they're important historical

705
00:31:11,980 --> 00:31:15,190
S3: documents that we will continue to go back to in

706
00:31:15,190 --> 00:31:17,890
S3: the future. But like I think of like Elliot Page's

707
00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:21,340
S3: Page Boy, which came out this year, that's quite a

708
00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:23,620
S3: kind of poignant read about.

709
00:31:23,620 --> 00:31:25,150
S4: It was reviewed very well. Yeah.

710
00:31:25,150 --> 00:31:29,170
S3: Coming to terms with their gender and sexuality while in Hollywood.

711
00:31:29,290 --> 00:31:34,570
S3: Jeanette Mccurdy's I'm Glad My Mum Died is a beautiful

712
00:31:34,570 --> 00:31:39,310
S3: literary book, which I think transcends the category of celebrity memoir.

713
00:31:39,310 --> 00:31:42,550
S3: Selma Blair's book, which talks about the diagnosis of Ms..

714
00:31:42,790 --> 00:31:45,490
S3: As you can see, I am, I've been I've read some.

715
00:31:45,790 --> 00:31:46,510
S4: I've read some.

716
00:31:46,510 --> 00:31:50,170
S3: Really I've read it Anna Kendrick I love them. Busy

717
00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:54,010
S3: Philipps these are like eye popping audible and these like,

718
00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:55,810
S3: take me to sleep sometimes.

719
00:31:55,810 --> 00:31:57,160
S2: How many times have you read Bossypants?

720
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,260
S4: Tina Fey did write that one.

721
00:31:59,260 --> 00:32:00,580
S3: Amy Schumer.

722
00:32:01,510 --> 00:32:02,650
S4: There was a while where, like, every.

723
00:32:02,650 --> 00:32:05,740
S2: Second girl I knew was reading Lena Dunham's one. Oh yeah.

724
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:06,400
S4: So one.

725
00:32:06,790 --> 00:32:10,450
S3: Um, not that kind of girl. It was a series

726
00:32:10,450 --> 00:32:11,080
S3: of essays.

727
00:32:11,470 --> 00:32:12,550
S4: But let me just get that. Yeah, I.

728
00:32:12,550 --> 00:32:14,800
S3: Do think there are different categories, and I think I

729
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,930
S3: understand what you're saying, but I think there are some

730
00:32:16,930 --> 00:32:20,050
S3: that are special and yes, a rare factor of ingredients

731
00:32:20,050 --> 00:32:22,270
S3: that make a celebrity. But what others.

732
00:32:22,630 --> 00:32:22,989
S4: I think you've.

733
00:32:22,990 --> 00:32:26,530
S1: Sort of like probably explained some of that already, I think.

734
00:32:26,530 --> 00:32:28,840
S1: I think maybe where my cynicism comes from. And again,

735
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,210
S1: I haven't read the Brittany one yet, but the early

736
00:32:31,210 --> 00:32:34,390
S1: kind of reviews, no one's talking about the writing. It

737
00:32:34,390 --> 00:32:37,180
S1: seems to be very perfunctory and just very matter of fact.

738
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:39,850
S1: And again, my point is not to say that like

739
00:32:39,850 --> 00:32:41,680
S1: no one should be allowed to do it, but I

740
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,530
S1: think like the role they perform, the role this one

741
00:32:44,530 --> 00:32:46,930
S1: seems to be performing at least, is very much just

742
00:32:46,930 --> 00:32:49,180
S1: like here are some facts I want you guys to

743
00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:51,610
S1: know about. But it sounds like from what you're saying, Mel,

744
00:32:51,610 --> 00:32:55,180
S1: that there are other versions of this kind of book

745
00:32:55,180 --> 00:32:58,690
S1: that are both, like, quite beautiful and poignant and speak

746
00:32:58,690 --> 00:33:02,590
S1: to bigger, more complicated ideas around any kind of issue

747
00:33:02,590 --> 00:33:03,400
S1: in society. Yeah.

748
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,230
S3: Or I think just because an author maybe has a

749
00:33:05,230 --> 00:33:08,800
S3: motivation for publishing something that doesn't necessarily always color what

750
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,350
S3: we as readers get from it, I mean, Spare by

751
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:14,440
S3: Prince Harry was obviously kind of an indictment of his

752
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,830
S3: family and the media, but as a reader, I found

753
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:20,170
S3: that was fascinating. The kind of way he wanted to

754
00:33:20,170 --> 00:33:23,650
S3: represent himself in that book was incredible. And the details

755
00:33:23,650 --> 00:33:26,740
S3: about royal life. So I don't think that just because

756
00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:28,960
S3: a celebrity is trying to do one thing doesn't mean

757
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,630
S3: that what we get out of it is worthless or meaningless.

758
00:33:31,630 --> 00:33:33,140
S2: But I also think it does come down to just

759
00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:34,750
S2: like a case by case thing with who is writing

760
00:33:34,750 --> 00:33:38,170
S2: the book, like someone like a Jennette McCurdy or Elliot Page.

761
00:33:38,170 --> 00:33:41,470
S2: Like they're not celebrities in the way that like Will

762
00:33:41,470 --> 00:33:43,630
S2: Smith or Britney Spears are. So if they were writing

763
00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:46,570
S2: like a a more straightforward celebrity memoir about like, just

764
00:33:46,570 --> 00:33:48,250
S2: their life as the same person, like no one would

765
00:33:48,250 --> 00:33:51,010
S2: care as much because like, Jennette McCurdy was a Nickelodeon star,

766
00:33:51,220 --> 00:33:53,620
S2: but she has this incredible story that maybe most people

767
00:33:53,620 --> 00:33:56,709
S2: didn't know. Whereas Brittany, like, we've kind of there's a

768
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:59,170
S2: more general knowledge of like her struggles. And same with

769
00:33:59,170 --> 00:34:01,300
S2: Will Smith. Like I read Will Smith's one boring as fuck.

770
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:04,910
S2: So like. We are aware of their struggles already and

771
00:34:04,910 --> 00:34:07,010
S2: we kind of know what to expect. Whereas these like

772
00:34:07,010 --> 00:34:10,910
S2: lower tea people who are not that crazy A-list famous

773
00:34:10,910 --> 00:34:13,130
S2: like they really catch you by surprise. Jennette McCurdy was

774
00:34:13,130 --> 00:34:15,140
S2: one of my favorite books I read last year, and

775
00:34:15,140 --> 00:34:17,840
S2: I read tens of books a year. But no, that

776
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,190
S2: was a great book, and that was like, I didn't

777
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:21,170
S2: even read it as a memory. I just like, read

778
00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:23,719
S2: it like. And yeah, so I think sometimes they can

779
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,410
S2: really hit the mark, but other times like, yeah, well,

780
00:34:26,420 --> 00:34:28,340
S2: same thing with Sperry. Like I found Sperry really fascinating.

781
00:34:28,340 --> 00:34:30,739
S2: But I was just kind of like, like almost scan

782
00:34:30,739 --> 00:34:32,779
S2: reading to be like, what? What's in here that's controversial. Yeah.

783
00:34:32,780 --> 00:34:32,990
S2: You want.

784
00:34:32,989 --> 00:34:33,800
S1: To control F.

785
00:34:33,860 --> 00:34:34,430
S4: Basically. Yeah.

786
00:34:34,430 --> 00:34:37,219
S1: Yeah. And like, I think everything you said sounds right.

787
00:34:37,219 --> 00:34:39,680
S1: And I think it's very spot on. But I think

788
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,840
S1: maybe what I'm saying is more an indictment of us

789
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,360
S1: as audiences in terms of what we want, and also

790
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,270
S1: the modern digital media ecosystem, which again, we are the

791
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:50,989
S1: three of us at least partly responsible for, because you

792
00:34:50,989 --> 00:34:52,760
S1: see this with books and not just memoirs, but all

793
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,850
S1: sorts of books, like you see people take a photo

794
00:34:55,850 --> 00:34:58,969
S1: or a screenshot of like an e-book and take a

795
00:34:58,969 --> 00:35:01,819
S1: paragraph and like put it on Instagram or Twitter and

796
00:35:01,820 --> 00:35:03,710
S1: either say it's great or dunk on it, and it

797
00:35:03,710 --> 00:35:06,589
S1: gets like tens of thousands of retweets. To me, the

798
00:35:06,590 --> 00:35:08,630
S1: very purpose of a book is that it's not supposed

799
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:11,720
S1: to be a paragraph or one anecdote taken out of context.

800
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,580
S1: It's supposed to be a collective like thing that is

801
00:35:16,580 --> 00:35:20,629
S1: judged as a single piece of work. And I just

802
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:22,910
S1: don't think our brains and the way that we consume

803
00:35:22,910 --> 00:35:26,750
S1: and talk about stuff now is quite like, right? For

804
00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:29,960
S1: dealing with something to be taken like as one big whole.

805
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,239
S3: Yeah. I mean, we can barely sit through Scorseses.

806
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,640
S4: Film, can we? I mean, it's like over two days.

807
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,170
S3: To edit that. Yeah.

808
00:35:36,170 --> 00:35:39,620
S2: I think the biggest issue with the like how much

809
00:35:39,620 --> 00:35:41,780
S2: as audiences we have been like, force fed them and

810
00:35:41,780 --> 00:35:44,270
S2: also eaten them up. Is that one of my biggest

811
00:35:44,270 --> 00:35:46,939
S2: issues with it is that we like it's just getting

812
00:35:46,940 --> 00:35:49,370
S2: more and more diluted, like publishing houses are just like,

813
00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:51,230
S2: you get a memoir, you get a memoir. And like

814
00:35:51,230 --> 00:35:53,690
S2: suddenly there are they're just like giving these like, you know,

815
00:35:53,750 --> 00:35:57,170
S2: influencers and whatever, like memoirs. And I'm like, man, like,

816
00:35:57,170 --> 00:35:59,390
S2: you know, do I need to read about Maddie J's

817
00:35:59,630 --> 00:36:00,989
S2: life like Maddie J.

818
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:01,760
S1: The second time Maddie J's.

819
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:02,750
S4: Come up on this podcast.

820
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,840
S2: This is Drive by Maddie Jake. But like, you know

821
00:36:06,620 --> 00:36:09,469
S2: how many different like influencer memoirs we've seen in the

822
00:36:09,469 --> 00:36:10,520
S2: last few years. And it's like.

823
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,640
S1: I think I think that is partly yeah. Where my like,

824
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:18,830
S1: as Mel describes, cynicism comes from. But like, maybe these

825
00:36:18,830 --> 00:36:22,820
S1: people are, as you know, allowed to have memoirs as

826
00:36:22,820 --> 00:36:23,720
S1: Lena Dunham, but they're.

827
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:24,650
S2: Allowed to make them good.

828
00:36:24,650 --> 00:36:27,080
S3: Yeah, yeah. I think maybe I'm a bit more forgiving

829
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,540
S3: because I see, like, you see the publishing houses in

830
00:36:29,540 --> 00:36:32,990
S3: this country failing. And if they get someone with 150,000

831
00:36:32,989 --> 00:36:36,739
S3: followers and they get 10% of that audience buying their memoir,

832
00:36:36,739 --> 00:36:39,950
S3: that's like a really significant amount of books for a

833
00:36:39,950 --> 00:36:42,980
S3: publishing company to sell with one title. And then you've

834
00:36:42,980 --> 00:36:46,190
S3: got to think that those titles offset the newer, younger,

835
00:36:46,190 --> 00:36:49,820
S3: more literary writers coming through. Yeah, the young Thomas Mitchell's

836
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:52,490
S3: of the future. So I know it's easy to be like, oh,

837
00:36:52,489 --> 00:36:54,860
S3: this is all publishing companies want, but I think they

838
00:36:54,860 --> 00:36:58,670
S3: actually are offsetting better work that publishing companies do.

839
00:36:58,910 --> 00:37:01,790
S2: It just makes me think of this famous quote from

840
00:37:01,790 --> 00:37:05,390
S2: Christopher Hitchens, which is, everybody does have a book in them,

841
00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:07,400
S2: but in most cases that's where it should stay.

842
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:09,530
S3: Was that from a book? Because we were just discussing

843
00:37:09,530 --> 00:37:10,070
S3: how we don't like.

844
00:37:10,070 --> 00:37:13,310
S4: Pulling individual paragraphs. The celebrated.

845
00:37:13,310 --> 00:37:14,120
S2: Author, Christopher.

846
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:14,779
S4: Hitchens.

847
00:37:14,780 --> 00:37:15,350
S2: Said it.

848
00:37:24,570 --> 00:37:26,190
S1: Okay, so we've talked a bit about what we don't

849
00:37:26,190 --> 00:37:29,160
S1: like from celebrity memoirs. Mel's listed a bunch of stuff

850
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,070
S1: she does like from Celebrity Memoirs. So I want to

851
00:37:32,070 --> 00:37:34,950
S1: ask you guys whether you have favorites.

852
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,120
S4: I do.

853
00:37:37,570 --> 00:37:39,160
S2: Mine is, I'm.

854
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,520
S3: Glad, a fight over who got my say this.

855
00:37:41,950 --> 00:37:43,540
S2: We did. I know I'm either in sync with one

856
00:37:43,540 --> 00:37:45,520
S2: of you all the time, so you guys are obviously

857
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,060
S2: sponging off my brain. But mine is. I'm glad you're mine.

858
00:37:49,060 --> 00:37:51,760
S2: Bye bye, Jennette McCurdy. As I kind of foreshadowed before,

859
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,400
S2: I really enjoyed it. And, you know, like, if you

860
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,500
S2: haven't read it, it's definitely worth checking out. Jennette McCurdy

861
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:58,750
S2: was like a Nickelodeon star. Kind of came up with

862
00:37:58,750 --> 00:38:02,080
S2: Ariana Grande like that era. And my awareness of her

863
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,850
S2: was very like, background. And it's this incredible story about her,

864
00:38:06,850 --> 00:38:10,540
S2: like time in that world, her really very tricky, confusing

865
00:38:10,540 --> 00:38:13,360
S2: relationship with her mother, which develops into an eating disorder

866
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,209
S2: and her trying to navigate, you know, the Nickelodeon world

867
00:38:16,210 --> 00:38:18,460
S2: of children's stars is like, super weird, as we all know.

868
00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:21,009
S2: But this gives you really kind of like excruciating detail.

869
00:38:21,010 --> 00:38:22,870
S2: And also on top of that, she's like a really

870
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:24,340
S2: naturally funny writer.

871
00:38:24,610 --> 00:38:26,469
S3: Yeah, it's a hilarious read, and I think it's one

872
00:38:26,469 --> 00:38:28,719
S3: of those books that if you heard the surface level story,

873
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,750
S3: it's like child star, like, you know, the trauma of

874
00:38:31,780 --> 00:38:34,510
S3: being a child star, messed up relationship with mom eating disorder.

875
00:38:34,510 --> 00:38:37,870
S3: You'd kind of be like familiar with this genre, but

876
00:38:38,020 --> 00:38:39,460
S3: she tells it in such a way that it is

877
00:38:39,460 --> 00:38:41,730
S3: laugh out loud funny. Have you have you read Oz?

878
00:38:41,739 --> 00:38:42,310
S3: I have not read it.

879
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:44,140
S1: I I'm about to reveal. I think I've only read

880
00:38:44,140 --> 00:38:45,370
S1: one celebrity memoir.

881
00:38:45,370 --> 00:38:45,850
S4: And I bet you.

882
00:38:45,850 --> 00:38:46,480
S2: I know what it is.

883
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,210
S3: I haven't. I can't pick which one it would be.

884
00:38:49,340 --> 00:38:50,500
S1: Booky book by Russell Brand.

885
00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:51,120
S4: Oh no.

886
00:38:51,130 --> 00:38:51,880
S1: No, it's not true.

887
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:52,690
S4: I don't read that book.

888
00:38:53,150 --> 00:38:54,850
S1: So you want do you think you can guess? And look,

889
00:38:54,850 --> 00:38:56,469
S1: I think I've probably read more. I've, I've read a

890
00:38:56,469 --> 00:38:59,770
S1: lot of memoirs, but from more like all three types

891
00:38:59,770 --> 00:39:04,810
S1: of people write celebrity memoirs. We're talking about like TV people, singers,

892
00:39:04,810 --> 00:39:07,210
S1: that sort of thing. And when I was thinking about this,

893
00:39:07,210 --> 00:39:08,680
S1: I was racking my brain. I was like, I can

894
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,560
S1: only really remember one celebrity. Can you give us a clue?

895
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:12,009
S4: Memoir?

896
00:39:12,010 --> 00:39:13,630
S1: No. Well, Thomas thinks he can guess it. Well, I.

897
00:39:13,630 --> 00:39:14,440
S4: Just know.

898
00:39:14,860 --> 00:39:17,410
S2: We're kind of the same age and growing up.

899
00:39:17,590 --> 00:39:19,420
S1: I know it. You're going to get it. This is outrage.

900
00:39:19,420 --> 00:39:22,720
S2: Growing up, all of my mates who didn't read but

901
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,910
S2: pretended they did or like, we're given this book and

902
00:39:24,910 --> 00:39:27,160
S2: it sat on their fucking nightstand. It was Anthony Kiedis

903
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:27,850
S2: scar tissue.

904
00:39:27,850 --> 00:39:32,090
S4: Oh of course, motherfucker, you. It pulls off air.

905
00:39:32,110 --> 00:39:33,670
S2: I was like, I bet you I know what it is.

906
00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:34,990
S1: We made $100 bet that you did.

907
00:39:35,020 --> 00:39:36,669
S2: Actually push for a thousand.

908
00:39:36,670 --> 00:39:38,680
S4: Yeah, I knew it. What are you buying us?

909
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,850
S2: Well, what did I like? Ten copies of Anthony Kiedis garbage.

910
00:39:42,910 --> 00:39:44,290
S3: I was going to go with Dave Grohl, but I

911
00:39:44,290 --> 00:39:45,340
S3: thought that might be a bit offensive.

912
00:39:45,340 --> 00:39:45,819
S4: Yeah, it's so funny.

913
00:39:45,820 --> 00:39:47,230
S1: Because I don't even know if I like the Red

914
00:39:47,230 --> 00:39:49,090
S1: Hot Chili Peppers that much, but it just it came

915
00:39:49,090 --> 00:39:50,800
S1: out at this time where I was like a 14

916
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,370
S1: year old boy, and it seemed like a cool story

917
00:39:54,370 --> 00:39:56,200
S1: about this rock star and what he got up to

918
00:39:56,230 --> 00:39:59,830
S1: some very problematic things in this book. But yeah, it's fine,

919
00:39:59,830 --> 00:40:01,930
S1: I think I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, but it was

920
00:40:01,930 --> 00:40:03,250
S1: a fine read as a teenage boy.

921
00:40:03,250 --> 00:40:06,040
S2: But seriously, it was like a permanent place on everyone's nightstand,

922
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:07,719
S2: like all my friends. And he's like black and white cover.

923
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:08,560
S2: He's got his shirt off.

924
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:10,210
S1: Scar tissue, I believe.

925
00:40:10,210 --> 00:40:10,480
S4: Yeah.

926
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,220
S2: We did a story last year, actually, kind of around

927
00:40:12,219 --> 00:40:15,580
S2: this place, and I remember reading that. So since 2004,

928
00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:18,489
S2: it's sold 254,000 copies in Australia, which is like, that's

929
00:40:18,489 --> 00:40:21,220
S2: a lot, a lot of copies. Yeah. I do think

930
00:40:21,219 --> 00:40:23,260
S2: like in the next generation of that, I feel like

931
00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:26,080
S2: Lena Dunham's not that kind of girl, very similar. Like,

932
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,480
S2: I feel like I saw that cover every second person's house,

933
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:29,950
S2: like up on the bookshelf or whatever. I can picture

934
00:40:29,950 --> 00:40:31,960
S2: it in my mind. So yeah, certain ones just seem

935
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,370
S2: to kind of like click.

936
00:40:33,370 --> 00:40:33,790
S4: I want to give.

937
00:40:33,790 --> 00:40:36,879
S3: A shout out also to Seth Rogen's yearbook. I don't

938
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,009
S3: know why. Really tickled me. I thought it was very you.

939
00:40:39,010 --> 00:40:41,410
S1: Haven't actually picked yours, but is yours the same as Thomas's?

940
00:40:41,410 --> 00:40:44,080
S3: Probably. That's one of the more recent ones I've read.

941
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:45,040
S1: You're also giving a Seth Rogen.

942
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,319
S3: Seth Rogen I'm giving you. I'm giving you a second option.

943
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,480
S1: And this is actually your question that you ask, which

944
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,370
S1: I don't want to take credit for. But you suggested

945
00:40:51,370 --> 00:40:55,270
S1: that we talk about what celebrity we most wish would

946
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:58,839
S1: publish a memoir. Obviously, Thomas Mitchell is number one on

947
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,180
S1: that list. Celebrities we wish would write a memoir.

948
00:41:01,180 --> 00:41:01,660
S4: Yes.

949
00:41:01,660 --> 00:41:05,230
S2: And it's actually exciting to announce that this time next year. No,

950
00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:08,580
S2: I would you like me to answer this first? Yeah,

951
00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:13,210
S2: I'm already talking. This may not shock you, but I.

952
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,870
S4: Want to get. You should be able to get it.

953
00:41:18,340 --> 00:41:19,420
S3: Oh, John Mayer, of.

954
00:41:19,420 --> 00:41:20,580
S4: Course, was.

955
00:41:20,590 --> 00:41:21,550
S1: Going to be Nick Gianopulos.

956
00:41:21,550 --> 00:41:23,950
S4: No. Yeah, we need more. You could go through it.

957
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,440
S2: Yeah, no, I can, John Mayer. I've actually come up

958
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,870
S2: with a title for you as well. And this hopefully

959
00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:31,330
S2: you guys get this. It could be called John Mayer.

960
00:41:31,330 --> 00:41:33,730
S2: No such thing as a wonderland. Oh, that's pretty good.

961
00:41:33,739 --> 00:41:35,710
S4: Oh, fucking good. Nice.

962
00:41:35,739 --> 00:41:37,630
S2: And here's the reasons why I think it would work.

963
00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:39,880
S2: It would be perfect fodder for the exact type of

964
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,980
S2: story we talked about before, which is like, he has

965
00:41:41,980 --> 00:41:44,200
S2: got skeletons in the closet. You could do a great like,

966
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,569
S2: New York Times early. Take five things we learned from

967
00:41:46,570 --> 00:41:48,040
S2: the John Mayer biography. He could.

968
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:49,779
S1: Also call it Dear Taylor and just I have a

969
00:41:49,780 --> 00:41:51,030
S1: chapter called Dear Taylor and know.

970
00:41:51,070 --> 00:41:52,750
S4: That's perfect because then you get the Swifty.

971
00:41:52,750 --> 00:41:53,440
S3: Sales.

972
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:53,800
S4: Yes.

973
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,110
S2: He's had like he has great gas. He's got a

974
00:41:56,110 --> 00:41:58,690
S2: massive A-list back catalogue of broken hearts. As we all know,

975
00:41:58,690 --> 00:42:02,200
S2: Katy Perry, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Taylor Swift, Jessica Simpson, all

976
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,570
S2: who have their own books and and also he's experienced

977
00:42:04,570 --> 00:42:06,160
S2: the ups and downs of fame. So like this is

978
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,680
S2: a really good book. And again, if he is listening,

979
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,450
S2: I think we could do no such thing as Wonderland

980
00:42:10,450 --> 00:42:11,439
S2: and do a really good job.

981
00:42:11,530 --> 00:42:13,420
S3: Yeah. That's good, good answer.

982
00:42:13,420 --> 00:42:15,969
S1: Thanks for listening. Call up our guy, please.

983
00:42:15,969 --> 00:42:17,410
S4: Yeah. And always return my calls.

984
00:42:20,140 --> 00:42:23,560
S3: I'm available to for my own. Obviously it's Dwayne The

985
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,910
S3: Rock Johnson. Nice. And the title would have to be.

986
00:42:27,910 --> 00:42:30,339
S3: Can you smell what the Rock is cooking? That's good. Yeah.

987
00:42:30,730 --> 00:42:33,130
S3: I think, you know, everyone just loves the rock. And

988
00:42:33,130 --> 00:42:33,370
S3: has he.

989
00:42:33,370 --> 00:42:34,870
S1: Not written one? I'm surprised he hasn't written.

990
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,320
S3: He's written? No. He's written like a kind of rocks

991
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,660
S3: guide to, like, a bit more of a self-help crossover.

992
00:42:40,660 --> 00:42:42,760
S3: But he's not really delved into what makes when.

993
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:43,600
S4: He does drop this.

994
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,669
S1: You know, he's running for president. Yeah, yeah. That's it.

995
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:46,239
S4: Yeah.

996
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,279
S2: He he's is a crazy story to he would be

997
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:48,910
S2: a great book.

998
00:42:48,910 --> 00:42:51,280
S3: Yeah. Yeah. And he's transitioned from the Rock to Dwayne

999
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,470
S3: and to the action hero of our generation.

1000
00:42:53,469 --> 00:42:53,980
S4: I also think there.

1001
00:42:53,980 --> 00:42:56,020
S2: Would be a great piece in like, meet the little

1002
00:42:56,020 --> 00:42:58,180
S2: woman behind The Rock's memoir, like a Picture of You

1003
00:42:58,180 --> 00:43:00,450
S2: in the Rock. And he's like, it'd be like twins.

1004
00:43:00,610 --> 00:43:01,420
S2: Danny DeVito.

1005
00:43:01,420 --> 00:43:03,040
S4: And a great.

1006
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:03,700
S3: Team on the road.

1007
00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:05,469
S4: Wouldn't we? Yeah, yeah, that's really good.

1008
00:43:05,590 --> 00:43:08,259
S1: My one is Dave Chappelle, I think. I think Chappelle

1009
00:43:08,260 --> 00:43:11,469
S1: is one of the most interesting kind of characters we've

1010
00:43:11,469 --> 00:43:14,260
S1: had in culture for a few decades now. I think

1011
00:43:14,260 --> 00:43:17,770
S1: obviously he's attracted a lot of controversy for a lot

1012
00:43:17,770 --> 00:43:20,230
S1: of the most recent standup he's done in me saying

1013
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:23,110
S1: I'd want to read his memoir is not me endorsing

1014
00:43:23,290 --> 00:43:27,339
S1: particularly some of his, I think, quite like lazy and

1015
00:43:27,340 --> 00:43:31,630
S1: frustrating like routines around the trans community, and particularly like

1016
00:43:31,630 --> 00:43:33,730
S1: the last few Netflix specials, which have just been a

1017
00:43:33,730 --> 00:43:35,950
S1: bit too defensive and focused on cancel culture. But I

1018
00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:40,089
S1: think from the Chappelle Show on to being at the

1019
00:43:40,090 --> 00:43:42,250
S1: center of so much of like, black culture in the

1020
00:43:42,250 --> 00:43:46,690
S1: 90s and early 2000 to his, like, Escape to Africa,

1021
00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:50,590
S1: his conversion to Islam, his re-engagement with the mainstream US

1022
00:43:50,590 --> 00:43:55,030
S1: kind of cultural scene to like even talking about what

1023
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:58,720
S1: the whole cancel culture thing actually means to him. Like

1024
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,180
S1: don't agree with his perspectives on it, but I'd rather he, like,

1025
00:44:01,180 --> 00:44:03,340
S1: sit down and write what he's trying to do so

1026
00:44:03,340 --> 00:44:04,870
S1: we can engage with it on some kind of level.

1027
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:08,440
S1: Then I think through the comedy stuff, which works for him,

1028
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,630
S1: but it doesn't feel like the best place from which

1029
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:13,030
S1: we can have a discussion about what comedians like him

1030
00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:14,890
S1: think is right and wrong at the moment.

1031
00:44:14,890 --> 00:44:16,060
S2: He actually would be such a good one as well,

1032
00:44:16,060 --> 00:44:18,520
S2: because he's got that similar thing where like, everyone knows,

1033
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,770
S2: like is familiar with the Chappelle story and like the

1034
00:44:20,770 --> 00:44:22,330
S2: fact that he walked away from Comedy Central for this

1035
00:44:22,330 --> 00:44:24,580
S2: huge money and move to South Africa, like people know

1036
00:44:24,580 --> 00:44:26,890
S2: that those things. So to like get that filled in

1037
00:44:26,890 --> 00:44:28,480
S2: by the actual man would be amazing. And I'm kind

1038
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:29,290
S2: of shocked he hasn't done one.

1039
00:44:29,290 --> 00:44:31,390
S1: I looked this up and he hasn't. Yeah, there's like

1040
00:44:31,390 --> 00:44:34,420
S1: other people have written books about him or like done,

1041
00:44:34,420 --> 00:44:37,600
S1: you know what we know about Chappelle or like 72

1042
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,989
S1: Steps to Life, based on Chappelle's comedy. But he hasn't

1043
00:44:40,989 --> 00:44:41,710
S1: written his own thing.

1044
00:44:41,710 --> 00:44:42,549
S2: Have you got a name?

1045
00:44:43,090 --> 00:44:44,710
S1: No, I didn't actually think that was part of what

1046
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:45,489
S1: we were going to be doing.

1047
00:44:46,090 --> 00:44:49,120
S3: We just quick on our feet. Would you like to

1048
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:50,799
S3: ghost write it, though, or do you think he'd be

1049
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:52,830
S3: a bit of a difficult person to work as a writer?

1050
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:55,480
S1: I think I think I would struggle to ghostwrite something

1051
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,870
S1: for someone if I wasn't like 100% on board with

1052
00:44:58,870 --> 00:45:00,850
S1: like their agenda or whatever. Like, I kind of just

1053
00:45:00,850 --> 00:45:02,770
S1: want to read him in his own words or him

1054
00:45:02,770 --> 00:45:05,319
S1: with someone who gets what he's trying to say. Because,

1055
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,930
S1: you know, people might get mad at me for saying this. Like,

1056
00:45:07,930 --> 00:45:11,650
S1: I don't think you have to agree with everyone's approach.

1057
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,050
S1: To this issue of like, hate using the word cancel culture.

1058
00:45:15,050 --> 00:45:16,549
S1: But like, I don't think you have to agree with

1059
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:19,489
S1: it to still want someone who you think is smart

1060
00:45:19,489 --> 00:45:22,850
S1: and has proven themselves to be very interesting and provocative

1061
00:45:22,850 --> 00:45:24,980
S1: and progressive on a whole bunch of issues at certain

1062
00:45:24,980 --> 00:45:27,230
S1: points in time to just like, lay out what the

1063
00:45:27,230 --> 00:45:28,819
S1: hell they're trying to say. And I think this is

1064
00:45:28,820 --> 00:45:31,050
S1: like a really annoying part of the way that our oh,

1065
00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:33,320
S1: he's done the big discourse lecture. This is the annoying

1066
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,810
S1: part of the way so much of our discourse does

1067
00:45:35,810 --> 00:45:39,890
S1: work is it is just like people sending like excerpts

1068
00:45:39,890 --> 00:45:42,470
S1: of a thing and, you know, trading barbs on TikTok

1069
00:45:42,469 --> 00:45:47,719
S1: and whatever else. If books became primal again. Right, Mel?

1070
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,960
S1: If books could retrieve their place in kind of like

1071
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,379
S1: our cultural conversation, and we read books and we talk

1072
00:45:54,380 --> 00:45:56,990
S1: about books and we argued about the ideas in books

1073
00:45:56,989 --> 00:45:59,750
S1: rather than out of context screen grabs. I kind of

1074
00:45:59,750 --> 00:46:01,550
S1: do think that that would be better. And that's not

1075
00:46:01,550 --> 00:46:04,609
S1: me flipping on my celeb memoir Take That Is Me,

1076
00:46:04,610 --> 00:46:07,610
S1: I guess, underscoring it, that I don't like the way

1077
00:46:07,610 --> 00:46:09,980
S1: that we just take little bits and pieces from things

1078
00:46:09,980 --> 00:46:12,710
S1: and use things to justify our own arguments, rather than

1079
00:46:12,710 --> 00:46:15,379
S1: grappling with the complexity of big ideas. Because the world

1080
00:46:15,380 --> 00:46:17,989
S1: is a complex place, and I think we need to

1081
00:46:17,989 --> 00:46:22,460
S1: acknowledge that. And to actually, I don't know, like change

1082
00:46:22,460 --> 00:46:25,060
S1: the way we consume information in this day and age.

1083
00:46:25,070 --> 00:46:26,990
S3: I'm going to get on this table and, oh, captain,

1084
00:46:26,989 --> 00:46:31,489
S3: my captain, you know, I completely agree that we need

1085
00:46:31,489 --> 00:46:32,359
S3: more serious are now.

1086
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:33,140
S1: Just a book podcast.

1087
00:46:33,140 --> 00:46:35,900
S4: Frankly, that is finally happened. He has been manifesting it.

1088
00:46:35,900 --> 00:46:37,520
S2: And here we are. For the record, I do want

1089
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,380
S2: to go straight, John, because I want to spend that time.

1090
00:46:39,980 --> 00:46:41,330
S2: I think that's important. Yeah, I.

1091
00:46:41,330 --> 00:46:42,560
S1: Think there's always a lot of stuff going on in

1092
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,190
S1: the world that is making me feel quite passionate about

1093
00:46:46,190 --> 00:46:50,270
S1: the idea of like taking the time to treat people

1094
00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:52,220
S1: with respect and listen and read and all that sort

1095
00:46:52,219 --> 00:46:56,540
S1: of stuff. But I do think that, you know, we all,

1096
00:46:56,540 --> 00:46:58,010
S1: and in lots of listening to this, are part of

1097
00:46:58,010 --> 00:47:00,440
S1: this sort of conversation as well, need to think about

1098
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,920
S1: our role in how we sometimes strip things of their

1099
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,250
S1: context and just, you know, chew up people's lives and

1100
00:47:07,250 --> 00:47:11,000
S1: bits of information for mass consumption rather than what they're

1101
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,790
S1: actually trying to tell us. That is enough. Pontificate for me.

1102
00:47:14,090 --> 00:47:17,960
S3: I agree. And, you know, next week after I've received

1103
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,430
S3: my Britney book, I'll be able to give you an

1104
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:22,430
S3: update on the memoir and also on the Britney impersonator.

1105
00:47:22,489 --> 00:47:23,629
S4: So. So that coming.

1106
00:47:23,630 --> 00:47:24,290
S1: Into the office.

1107
00:47:24,330 --> 00:47:25,250
S4: They're coming into the office.

1108
00:47:25,610 --> 00:47:27,650
S1: It's going to be very exciting to report back next week.

1109
00:47:27,650 --> 00:47:29,990
S1: I know I said enough pontificating for me, but this

1110
00:47:29,989 --> 00:47:32,299
S1: is how Impress Your Friends segment where literally all we

1111
00:47:32,300 --> 00:47:35,780
S1: do is pontificate. Mel, what have you got?

1112
00:47:36,050 --> 00:47:38,810
S3: Okay, well, I've got not quite a celebrity memoir, maybe

1113
00:47:38,810 --> 00:47:40,640
S3: an Australian literary celebrity. Even though we.

1114
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,500
S4: Spent the whole episode talking about books, I.

1115
00:47:43,070 --> 00:47:43,670
S1: Still picked a.

1116
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:46,609
S4: Book. Do you do anything else solely? You guys had.

1117
00:47:46,610 --> 00:47:47,779
S3: Peaked and I thought.

1118
00:47:48,260 --> 00:47:50,570
S4: Like, this week, I've got a book.

1119
00:47:50,870 --> 00:47:53,570
S1: No, actually, no. What? I'm here for this books. Let's go.

1120
00:47:53,570 --> 00:47:55,669
S3: He literally just said, we need to encourage people to

1121
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:58,489
S3: read more and talk about books. More like that were

1122
00:47:58,489 --> 00:47:59,390
S3: his words.

1123
00:47:59,540 --> 00:48:02,219
S4: They were my words. He does them well. That's right.

1124
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:03,200
S4: Tell us about this book.

1125
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:04,850
S3: Okay, look, it's a bit of a it's a bit

1126
00:48:04,850 --> 00:48:08,150
S3: of a cross promotional thing as well for myself, because

1127
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:11,839
S3: I did just interview Richard Flanagan for his book question

1128
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,400
S3: seven on on the Good Weekend podcast. Sorry, guys, a

1129
00:48:15,469 --> 00:48:16,760
S3: little rival pod there.

1130
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,020
S4: Know we love cross promoting.

1131
00:48:18,020 --> 00:48:21,049
S3: This is a fascinating memoir, and it's not like any

1132
00:48:21,050 --> 00:48:23,450
S3: other memoir I've really read. I think there's been this

1133
00:48:23,450 --> 00:48:28,520
S3: like trend to autofiction lately in books, but this is

1134
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,370
S3: kind of genre spanning. It looks at his childhood and

1135
00:48:31,370 --> 00:48:33,920
S3: his life growing up in Tasmania, one of six children,

1136
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,170
S3: and his development into a writer. But it kind of

1137
00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:39,800
S3: spans out into much bigger stories about Hiroshima. His father,

1138
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,410
S3: who was a prisoner of war during World War Two

1139
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:47,090
S3: to Tasmania, the treatment of Indigenous Australians and the settlement

1140
00:48:47,090 --> 00:48:51,170
S3: to the environment. It's kind of this really discursive read,

1141
00:48:51,170 --> 00:48:54,290
S3: but it works so well and it kind of blew

1142
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,410
S3: me away. So yeah, a bit a bit different to

1143
00:48:57,410 --> 00:49:00,140
S3: the other memoirs we were talking about, but really worthy

1144
00:49:00,140 --> 00:49:02,000
S3: of a read, even if you're not familiar or even

1145
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,969
S3: if you are, and you don't like Richard Flanagan's novels,

1146
00:49:04,969 --> 00:49:06,680
S3: it's a it's worthy of a read.

1147
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,800
S2: I do like Flanagan. I do like I also really

1148
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,650
S2: love salmon. I have it twice a week. And obviously

1149
00:49:12,650 --> 00:49:13,430
S2: what was the last one.

1150
00:49:13,790 --> 00:49:14,390
S4: He took down?

1151
00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:17,240
S3: Salmon was a reference to his book about. So I

1152
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:17,780
S3: read the book.

1153
00:49:17,780 --> 00:49:19,520
S1: I interviewed him about the book. I thought it was

1154
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,400
S1: a really good book. I only by like hand reared

1155
00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:24,410
S1: New Zealand salmon as a result.

1156
00:49:24,410 --> 00:49:26,719
S4: It's like massaged. I'm not on.

1157
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,420
S2: That hand read money. I actually think the book was

1158
00:49:29,420 --> 00:49:32,120
S2: called toxic, and I just think I prefer Britney's toxic

1159
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:33,879
S2: compared to Richard Flanagan's.

1160
00:49:34,910 --> 00:49:37,759
S1: No. It's a good shout, Mel. Like, I enjoy Flanagan's work.

1161
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,580
S1: I think he's a smart man. I think his writing

1162
00:49:40,580 --> 00:49:43,820
S1: is some of the better like stuff in the Australian

1163
00:49:43,820 --> 00:49:47,330
S1: literary world. And I got to say, until you'd said it,

1164
00:49:47,330 --> 00:49:49,790
S1: I wouldn't have thought I'd care about reading his memoir.

1165
00:49:49,790 --> 00:49:51,469
S1: But you've done a very good job selling it.

1166
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,450
S3: Thank you. And I might do a shout out to

1167
00:49:53,450 --> 00:49:56,719
S3: because speaking of Scorsese, I did watch last night Shine

1168
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:00,920
S3: a Light, the Scorsese documentary about the Rolling Stones. It's

1169
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,259
S3: very weird. It's just. It is really. Have you seen it? No,

1170
00:50:03,260 --> 00:50:05,210
S3: it's a concert film. But then for the first like

1171
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:08,870
S3: ten minutes, Scorsese is just like really, really present in

1172
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:11,420
S3: the as the band gets ready to perform their gig.

1173
00:50:11,930 --> 00:50:12,650
S3: It's a lot of fun.

1174
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,740
S1: Nice one. Thomas, what have you got for us?

1175
00:50:14,750 --> 00:50:15,350
S4: Yes.

1176
00:50:15,890 --> 00:50:17,960
S2: I'm kind of taking it back to last week. I

1177
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,860
S2: have a mob documentary recommendation. Wow. This one dropped on

1178
00:50:21,860 --> 00:50:24,950
S2: Netflix on Tuesday. So it's out now for your streaming pleasure.

1179
00:50:24,950 --> 00:50:28,129
S2: It's a three parter on John Gotti. It's actually really good. Like, I,

1180
00:50:28,310 --> 00:50:30,500
S2: as we all know, I'm like into mafioso.

1181
00:50:30,530 --> 00:50:33,860
S4: Is he Teflon Don John Gotti yeah. My god, Teflon Don.

1182
00:50:33,890 --> 00:50:36,650
S2: He is the Teflon Don. But it's really interesting because

1183
00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:39,379
S2: it's not only like a straightforward documentary about the life

1184
00:50:39,380 --> 00:50:41,509
S2: and times of John Gotti, but it also looks it

1185
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:44,839
S2: kind of goes into the very, like, fractured and often

1186
00:50:44,989 --> 00:50:48,439
S2: unproductive relationship between law enforcement in America. But the story

1187
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,890
S2: of John Gotti itself is crazy. You know, in 1985,

1188
00:50:51,890 --> 00:50:54,140
S2: he basically he's part of the Gambino crime family, like

1189
00:50:54,140 --> 00:50:56,330
S2: one of the five families in New York. He was

1190
00:50:56,330 --> 00:50:59,750
S2: kind of in the running to become the underboss. And

1191
00:50:59,750 --> 00:51:02,240
S2: the boss of the family was Paul Castellano. And then

1192
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,960
S2: Paul Castellano was shot in Midtown on, like, Christmas Eve,

1193
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,540
S2: one of the biggest, like most famous mob executions, like

1194
00:51:08,540 --> 00:51:10,879
S2: in midtown. That'll be like shooting someone in the middle of, like,

1195
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,450
S2: you know, Westfield Bondi Junction or like Federation Square.

1196
00:51:14,660 --> 00:51:18,230
S4: I love these local references, but it was Christie's Midtown.

1197
00:51:18,530 --> 00:51:20,569
S4: The only way we can understand it was crazy.

1198
00:51:20,570 --> 00:51:22,430
S2: And then basically everyone in the world knew that John

1199
00:51:22,430 --> 00:51:25,160
S2: Gotti had done it. All the police enforcement agencies knew

1200
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:26,900
S2: and they couldn't make it stick. And that was kind

1201
00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:29,570
S2: of the beginning of Teflon Don. He was also the

1202
00:51:29,570 --> 00:51:31,760
S2: first kind of mobster to beat like a Rico charge,

1203
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:33,530
S2: which are really hard to get off. But the story

1204
00:51:33,530 --> 00:51:37,850
S2: is so great because they have these incredible recordings from his, like, clubhouse,

1205
00:51:37,850 --> 00:51:39,890
S2: which have never really been released before. So you hear

1206
00:51:39,890 --> 00:51:42,790
S2: John Gotti, like on the phone talking to his, you know,

1207
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,770
S2: like different, like connections, talking about the things he's done

1208
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:47,930
S2: and hearing this kind of like first person account of

1209
00:51:47,930 --> 00:51:50,330
S2: these incredible mob murders is, is very impressive. But yeah,

1210
00:51:50,330 --> 00:51:52,440
S2: the thing I've found most curious about it and why

1211
00:51:52,460 --> 00:51:54,229
S2: I think people should watch it is yeah, you get

1212
00:51:54,230 --> 00:51:56,810
S2: to see these levels of like the FBI versus the

1213
00:51:56,810 --> 00:51:59,689
S2: organized crime squad versus like the New York State Police

1214
00:51:59,690 --> 00:52:02,240
S2: Department and the way they, like, willingly make an effort

1215
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,310
S2: to hamstring each other in order to be the ones

1216
00:52:04,310 --> 00:52:06,920
S2: to catch John Gotti. Like, it's crazy. But yeah, it's

1217
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,830
S2: really good. Great soundtrack. So yeah, let's get Gotti on Netflix.

1218
00:52:09,830 --> 00:52:12,379
S1: That's great. We've been on a real gangster tip lately.

1219
00:52:12,380 --> 00:52:12,980
S4: And The.

1220
00:52:12,980 --> 00:52:15,770
S1: Departed and Goodfellas are now translating into the Gotti.

1221
00:52:15,770 --> 00:52:16,460
S4: Doc. I think it's.

1222
00:52:16,460 --> 00:52:18,440
S3: Kind of you're bringing it into the office, too, a

1223
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:19,520
S3: bit like you've got a bit of a.

1224
00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:20,900
S4: Bit of a gangster.

1225
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:21,800
S3: Around.

1226
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:22,460
S4: You call yourself.

1227
00:52:22,460 --> 00:52:23,210
S1: The underboss of the.

1228
00:52:23,210 --> 00:52:23,960
S4: Sydney Morning Herald.

1229
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:25,460
S2: I think I'm kind of like probably the head of

1230
00:52:25,460 --> 00:52:26,090
S2: the family.

1231
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,030
S1: We do have an editor at this newspaper.

1232
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:29,690
S4: Not for long.

1233
00:52:32,180 --> 00:52:35,390
S1: Very funny. My recommendation is a film that actually came

1234
00:52:35,390 --> 00:52:38,900
S1: out last month. But based on my conversations, no one

1235
00:52:38,900 --> 00:52:41,420
S1: else I know has seen it. It's called No One

1236
00:52:41,420 --> 00:52:44,270
S1: Will Save You. It's a sci fi horror film starring

1237
00:52:44,270 --> 00:52:49,100
S1: Kaitlin Dever from Booksmart and playing like a role I'm

1238
00:52:49,100 --> 00:52:51,170
S1: not used to seeing her in. So this is a

1239
00:52:51,170 --> 00:52:53,990
S1: movie about a woman who lives like a very solitary

1240
00:52:53,989 --> 00:52:57,410
S1: life in this town. The townsfolk don't really like her,

1241
00:52:57,410 --> 00:53:00,170
S1: as she has some childhood trauma, shock, horror that she

1242
00:53:00,170 --> 00:53:03,440
S1: deals with just by, like, building models in her house.

1243
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,890
S1: And it's a pretty kind of grim existence, she ekes out.

1244
00:53:06,890 --> 00:53:10,130
S1: But all of a sudden aliens arrive to this town,

1245
00:53:10,130 --> 00:53:13,670
S1: and then it kind of becomes an alien chase film.

1246
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:17,509
S1: But done incredibly well. There are only five lines of

1247
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:20,480
S1: dialogue in this entire movie. It's 93 minutes long. It's

1248
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,600
S1: really entertaining. It's really, I think, original and like both

1249
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,200
S1: fun and like a bit spooky but not terrifying. The

1250
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:28,640
S1: ending I don't want to give too much away. I

1251
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,120
S1: think like didn't totally work for me, but I think

1252
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,220
S1: this is the kind of movie like I want to

1253
00:53:34,219 --> 00:53:36,600
S1: see more of. It's on Disney Plus. It's better than

1254
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,810
S1: the 99% of streaming films you'll see. It's a great

1255
00:53:38,810 --> 00:53:42,620
S1: like if it's a rainy weekend watch, no one will

1256
00:53:42,620 --> 00:53:44,240
S1: save you. You guys horror people. I don't think we've

1257
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:44,960
S1: talked about this.

1258
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,300
S2: I am yeah, I'm beginning to horror. Wait, so there's

1259
00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:49,250
S2: only five lines of dialogue in the whole film? Yeah.

1260
00:53:49,250 --> 00:53:52,670
S1: And it's like, what was that movie that the.

1261
00:53:53,870 --> 00:53:54,469
S3: Oh, no.

1262
00:53:55,010 --> 00:53:55,880
S2: A quiet place, a.

1263
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:57,950
S1: Quiet place, right. Which that was a similar sort of

1264
00:53:57,950 --> 00:53:59,759
S1: conceit to it. I think The Quiet Place was like

1265
00:53:59,780 --> 00:54:01,760
S1: quite masterful, and I don't think this is quite at

1266
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,120
S1: its level. But this is like Caitlin Davies, basically the

1267
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,550
S1: only person in most of this movie, and not a

1268
00:54:07,550 --> 00:54:10,580
S1: lot is said, but it's still very gripping and very engaging.

1269
00:54:10,580 --> 00:54:11,390
S1: So that's my.

1270
00:54:11,390 --> 00:54:13,700
S2: Recommendation. Perfect. Lots of good stuff. There.

1271
00:54:14,030 --> 00:54:18,469
S1: Just before we wrap up Halloween coming up, really funny

1272
00:54:18,469 --> 00:54:24,080
S1: story about the Screen Actors Guild not letting actors dress

1273
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,989
S1: up as characters from like, movies and TV shows because

1274
00:54:26,989 --> 00:54:29,990
S1: it could be seen as promoting them, which is hilarious.

1275
00:54:30,230 --> 00:54:32,899
S1: I think we're still allowed to dress up as people.

1276
00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:33,560
S2: I think we are.

1277
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,480
S1: I've seen like quite a few. I think the New

1278
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,900
S1: York Magazine Strategist website had a fun list of like,

1279
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:42,080
S1: topical pop culture things you could go as and links to,

1280
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,180
S1: like how you could look up them. I think I

1281
00:54:44,180 --> 00:54:45,050
S1: got one for you.

1282
00:54:45,050 --> 00:54:46,009
S4: Now hit me.

1283
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,509
S1: Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce yeah nice.

1284
00:54:49,610 --> 00:54:51,050
S4: Yeah that's good. Nice nice am I.

1285
00:54:51,050 --> 00:54:51,680
S3: Travis or.

1286
00:54:51,710 --> 00:54:52,520
S1: You can pick whoever you.

1287
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:52,820
S4: Want.

1288
00:54:52,820 --> 00:54:53,660
S3: Yeah great.

1289
00:54:53,690 --> 00:54:55,250
S1: Yeah Travis Kelsey I can see that.

1290
00:54:55,250 --> 00:54:55,850
S4: That's pretty cool.

1291
00:54:55,850 --> 00:54:57,620
S2: Yeah I am actually going out on Saturday to a

1292
00:54:57,620 --> 00:55:01,400
S2: kind of Halloween party ish. But I think I'm just

1293
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,980
S2: going to like go as Carmy from the bed.

1294
00:55:03,980 --> 00:55:06,320
S4: Oh my god. Barely dressing up.

1295
00:55:06,860 --> 00:55:09,680
S2: But look, it's easy. It's cool. People love him. People

1296
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:11,480
S2: love me. Yes, chef.

1297
00:55:12,110 --> 00:55:14,060
S1: Let's leave it there. Thanks, guys. Happy Halloween.

1298
00:55:14,090 --> 00:55:15,650
S4: Thanks, guys. Happy Halloween.

1299
00:55:20,180 --> 00:55:23,840
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Cheong. If

1300
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,359
S1: you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make

1301
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,910
S1: sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app. Leave

1302
00:55:28,910 --> 00:55:31,190
S1: us a review or better yet, share the app with

1303
00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:34,580
S1: a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week!