S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Salinger. Maurice, it's Tuesday,
S1: March 18th. These are the submarines that have launched a
S1: thousand ships, or rather reams of news stories and hours
S1: of debate in Parliament, because they don't just come with
S1: an $8 billion price tag each. They also come with
S1: some serious political baggage. They are the infamous nuclear powered
S1: boats that we've signed on the dotted line to purchase
S1: through the Aukus agreement with the United States and the
S1: United Kingdom. Our foreign affairs and security correspondent recently stepped
S1: inside one in order to find out. Are these submarines
S1: really that special? Today, Matthew, not on whether we need
S1: these so-called apex predators of 21st century naval warfare and
S1: whether this deal is even safe under the presidency of
S1: Donald Trump. So, Matt, you were among a group of
S1: journalists who just on Sunday were given a tour of
S1: one of the US Navy's Virginia class submarines. Now, these,
S1: of course, are the subs that Australia is buying as
S1: part of the Aukus deal. So first off, just tell us,
S1: what is it like being in one of those things?
S2: Yeah, I'm having written about Aukus a lot over recent years.
S2: I've been very keen to actually step aboard one of
S2: these Virginia class submarines that we spend a lot of
S2: time talking about, debating.
S3: The range of breaking news this morning. And Prime Minister
S3: Scott Morrison has joined US President Joe Biden and British
S3: PM Boris Johnson to unveil a major new security pact.
S4: President Macron told a couple of us around the corner
S4: that you didn't tell him the truth on the subs deal.
S4: In fact, he said that you might have lied. Is
S4: that true?
S5: No. Do you think he lied to you?
S6: I don't think I know.
S7: What does that mean?
S8: Aukus the Australia US Defence Alliance.
S7: Well, we'll be discussing that. We've had another great relationship.
S7: And you have two with Australia?
S5: Yeah.
S2: A submarine called the USS Minnesota has been in WA
S2: for the past three weeks. It's been here a while,
S2: and I received a call saying that we're taking some
S2: journalists on board. And would you like to join? And
S2: I said, uh, very much.
S9: Site in Perth. The USS Minnesota moored at HMAS Stirling.
S10: We are very excited to be here in Australia. This
S10: is the the port visit that every sailor dreams of.
S2: So on the tour we got to see different rooms,
S2: different aspects of the submarine. I was interested to learn
S2: that it's not just named USS Minnesota, after the state
S2: in the Midwest of America. They take that idea very seriously,
S2: the connection to that state. There's paraphernalia all over the
S2: submarine are from Minnesota. Minnesota has a Scandinavian history. Viking
S2: is the name of the state football team, and they
S2: actually take this ethos on. We saw the cafe called
S2: the Valhalla Cafe, essentially the galley restaurant where the chefs
S2: prepare the food. Everyone told us about the hugely important
S2: role a food plays to morale. There will be Taco Tuesdays,
S2: there will be Burger Nights. After they do a significant operation,
S2: they'll have Saturday night pizza and movie nights.
S9: 140 crew, including seven women working around the clock in
S9: tight quarters.
S1: So can you just tell us how claustrophobic it is
S1: inside these submarines? Can you paint a picture for us
S1: about what it's actually like inside?
S2: It is a very tight, confined environment. The Virginia class
S2: submarines that the US has are bigger and roomier than
S2: the Collins class submarines that Australia has, but still, space
S2: is absolutely at a premium. The primary function of submarines
S2: is to a fight, a war. It's a military purpose,
S2: so everything has double use. Everything is packed in. Yeah.
S2: If you were claustrophobic, it certainly wouldn't be a career
S2: for you. People talk about this, that the teamwork and
S2: trust in your colleagues has to be incredibly high to
S2: operate in an environment like this. So it's clear that
S2: it's certainly not for everyone. Some of the submariners on
S2: board had told us they'd spent 102 days in there
S2: without seeing sunlight underwater for the whole time, because of
S2: the nuclear propulsion technology. So that's a challenge for a
S2: lot of people.
S1: And so tell us why. Why did you get a
S1: peek now? Like who actually organises this? Because of course,
S1: this Aukus pact. I mean, it goes back three and
S1: a half years.
S2: So as Orcus accelerates and moves forward, these type of
S2: visits are becoming more common. There's going to be two
S2: scheduled this year are port visits by a US nuclear
S2: powered submarines and the US side just like the Australian side.
S2: They're aware that there is a debate around orcas, that
S2: there's a debate around the very high cost of this program.
S2: Why does Australia need these submarines? Submarines are very mysterious
S2: to people. That's by design. They're stealthy. And exactly what
S2: they do in a war fighting sense isn't really discussed.
S2: So the US embassy, the US consulate here in Perth,
S2: is aware that they need to try and help educate
S2: people via the media about what these submarines do, who
S2: the people are on there. If Australians are going to
S2: understand what Aukus is all about and why submarines especially
S2: are important for maritime continent like Australia.
S1: Okay, so I do want to get into their function
S1: in just a moment. But first, can you just take
S1: a step back for us and actually tell us what
S1: Aukus is?
S2: So Aukus is a three way partnership between the UK,
S2: US and Australia. It's not technically an alliance. What it is,
S2: is a technology sharing partnership. It has two halves to it,
S2: the first half of which we talk about a lot more.
S2: That is the submarine part. So that is Australia gaining
S2: through the permission of the US and UK access to
S2: their nuclear technology, that we're going to acquire a three
S2: Virginia class submarines from the US and then start building
S2: a new fleet of nuclear powered submarines, mostly with the British,
S2: but with some American parts in there as well. Many
S2: countries have sought this technology Australia in the past as
S2: well and have been knocked back. This is very, very
S2: closely guarded stuff. And the seven nations in the world
S2: have nuclear powered submarines. So we're stepping up into a
S2: new club of military powers here. And the second part
S2: of Aukus is more general military cooperation on advanced technologies,
S2: things like hypersonic weapons, quantum computing, artificial intelligence, autonomous undersea vessels.
S2: That's all going along in the background. And there's a
S2: lot of work being done there. But many people agree
S2: in this space that there's a lot of potential, and
S2: not a huge amount has actually been achieved there yet.
S1: Okay, so you say that with this pact, you know,
S1: we're entering this elite club. You know, lots of countries
S1: have wanted this technology and haven't got it. And now
S1: we're finally set up to get it. We also know
S1: that they're hugely expensive. This pact is estimated to cost
S1: up to $368 billion for us, I believe. So what
S1: actually makes these submarines so special? Like why the big deal.
S2: Mhm. And we could see this when we were on there.
S2: The level of technology certainly is more advanced on a
S2: Virginia class submarine than a Collins class submarine. Are they
S2: now costing around $8 billion each in Australian dollars to build,
S2: to manufacture. So that goes to the complexity of them. Uh,
S2: nuclear powered submarines are often compared to the International Space
S2: Station with the level of technology that space shuttles and
S2: nuclear powered submarines are basically equally as complex and advanced
S2: as each other. So we saw this, for example, in
S2: the control room of the USS Minnesota that we were on, uh,
S2: Virginia class submarines were the first in the world not
S2: to have periscopes, which are such an iconic, recognizable part
S2: of a submarine. They don't have that. They have much
S2: more advanced technology that don't require you to stick something
S2: so far into the air and make yourself visible, which
S2: really undermines a key aspect of being a submarine, which
S2: is being stealthy and hard to find. You could see
S2: the the video surveillance that the submarine had. We saw
S2: the people listening to the electromagnetic waves. They were saying
S2: the submariners were saying how they could hear the dolphins
S2: and whales and a merchant ships approaching. So the technology
S2: really is incredible. We saw the torpedo tube room where
S2: weapons would be fired. These ships have a lot of
S2: potent equipment and weapons in them as well. And then
S2: there's just the sheer fact that unlike the diesel powered
S2: conventional submarines that Australia has had till now, these submarines
S2: don't need to be refueled because of the nuclear reactor.
S2: The only reason they need to come back to the surface.
S2: It is to replenish the food supply, and that changes
S2: the nature of what a submarine can do. If you
S2: can stay undetected for that long. And they can travel
S2: a lot further, a lot faster, for a lot longer.
S2: And that changes the game really militarily for the Australian Navy.
S1: We'll be back in a minute. Okay. But then why
S1: do we actually need them? I mean, do we need them?
S2: So the argument from the government, from the Navy, you hear,
S2: is that Australia is a huge island continent. There's no
S2: capability more important for us than submarines. Ships have always
S2: played a very important role in the Navy warships, and
S2: we're still investing in those. But we've seen with modern warfare,
S2: including in Ukraine, that surface ships are incredibly vulnerable now.
S2: A drone warfare has changed the game entirely. Many people
S2: discuss surface ships now as kind of floating turkeys. They're
S2: ready to be taken out pretty easily by an enemy,
S2: whereas submarines are still very stealthy and hard to know
S2: where they are. For example, we had a lot of
S2: discussion recently about the Chinese Naval Task Group A circumnavigating Australia.
S4: Lurking in waters off Sydney. An unusual sight. Three Chinese
S4: military ships travelling further south than they ever have before,
S4: carrying out a live fire exercise in the Tasman Sea,
S4: 300 nautical miles off the Australian coast.
S2: We don't know whether there was a nuclear powered submarine
S2: accompanying those ships or not. Many people say it's incredibly
S2: likely that there would be. But, uh, defence officials have
S2: themselves said they don't know.
S4: Australia had no idea the ships had opened fire. Instead,
S4: it was the pilot of a commercial passenger jet who
S4: first sounded the alarm.
S2: So that shows the stealthiness of a submarine. And if
S2: we're looking in Australia at a region that's becoming more contested.
S2: The Chinese military clearly wants to have more of a
S2: role in our part of the world. The argument is
S2: that our nation should have the best possible submarines. There's
S2: a bigger debate, though, about the strategic nature of aukus.
S2: If we do need nuclear powered submarines. Do they need
S2: to come from America? So it really goes to a
S2: very old debate about what is the Australian Defence Force for?
S2: Is it about narrow protection of our continent, or is
S2: it about promoting peace and security and helping our partners
S2: in the much wider world?
S1: And Matt, I did want to ask you about the
S1: controversial nature of this entire Aukus pact because it has
S1: a bit of a controversial history. So can you just
S1: briefly take us back to, I guess, the beginnings? You know,
S1: we were supposed to actually be partnering with the French,
S1: weren't we?
S2: Yes. Well, Australia's a history of submarine procurement since the
S2: Collins class has been pretty ill fated. We've pursued programs
S2: with different partners. There was discussion about buying submarines from
S2: Japan in the Abbott era that fell apart. Then in
S2: the Turnbull era, we opted for the French and the
S2: submarines they had to offer. There were definitely problems with
S2: the way that was going. There were frustrations about how
S2: long it was taking and blowouts in cost. And then
S2: we woke up in a September 2021 to news of
S2: this highly secretive Aukus pact that it had been done
S2: at the most high levels, with very few people knowing
S2: about it that we were locked in. We were cancelling
S2: the contract with the French and we were going down
S2: this entirely new path. And then the debate has become
S2: even more enlivened, I think, since the arrival of Donald
S2: Trump back to the white House.
S1: Well, I really want to ask you that because I
S1: think a lot of us saw, you know, with great
S1: interest the press conference that Donald Trump gave just the
S1: other day. Someone asked him, what about Aukus? He didn't
S1: seem to know what that meant. So I guess how
S1: much of the debate has changed since his arrival?
S2: Well, there are there are two sides to it, really.
S2: I think on the one hand, the Trump administration is
S2: supportive of aukus from everything they've said and everything we know.
S2: The new US defence secretary has said that he supports Aukus.
S2: Our defence minister, Richard Marles, was right over there on
S2: a plane very early, the first person to meet him
S2: since he was sworn in, Pete Hegseth. So there's been
S2: no word from the Trump administration that they want to
S2: scrap it, that they want to renegotiate it. Then on
S2: the other side, Aukus is underlined by a huge amount
S2: of trust, by a huge amount of a commitment. And
S2: we've seen from Donald Trump that in many cases he
S2: can't be relied upon. He can't be trusted. You can
S2: look at a country like Ukraine and how everything has
S2: turned around there. You can look at how a close
S2: ally like Canada is being treated. And we saw the
S2: decision not to grant Australia an exemption on steel and
S2: aluminum tariffs. So what many Australians are asking at a
S2: broader level is do we want to be so tied
S2: so closely to America at this time when such a
S2: volatile figure is there? And even when Trump goes in
S2: four years, as he is scheduled to do, will America
S2: ever be the same again? Will we ever be able
S2: to rely on American Aukus really locks us in with
S2: the United States. So what we're hearing from people like
S2: former chief of the Defence Force, Chris Barrie is it's
S2: time for a plan B, it's time for the government
S2: to come up with some other ideas for our submarine capability.
S2: What do we really want them to do? What military
S2: role do we want them to serve, and to see
S2: if there's a better offer on the table than Aukus.
S1: We'll definitely something to watch. So thank you so much, Matt,
S1: for your time.
S2: Always a pleasure.
S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills,
S1: with technical assistance by Josh towers. Tom Mackendrick is our
S1: head of audio. The Morning Edition is a production of
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S1: the morning edition. Thanks for listening.