1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,680 S1: There are not that many company CEOs whom the general 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:12,080 S1: public knows by name, but Alan Joyce is definitely one 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,640 S1: of them, in part because of how some customers and 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,000 S1: former employees were treated by Qantas, the company he led. 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,000 S1: I'm Samantha Salinger Morris, and you're listening to The Morning 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,400 S1: Edition from The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,080 S1: senior reporter Chris Zappone on why Alan Joyce is now 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:39,080 S1: telling his side of the story. Chris, welcome back to 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:39,839 S1: the podcast. 10 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:41,200 S2: Thanks, Sam. Great to be here. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,879 S1: Okay, so most of us, many of us haven't heard 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,320 S1: from Alan Joyce, the former CEO of Qantas, in quite 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,959 S1: a while. And now he's popped up again. Why did 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:51,040 S1: you just interview him? 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,320 S2: Well, so Alan Joyce, just to take us back, he 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,480 S2: resigned from his role as the CEO of Qantas in 2023. 17 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,060 S2: And when he did, it was a very difficult time 18 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:04,020 S2: for Qantas. One of the conditions of his resignation was 19 00:01:04,020 --> 00:01:05,780 S2: that he was going to keep quiet for a while. 20 00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:08,340 S2: After he stood down to give the new CEO some 21 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:10,459 S2: time to sort of, you know, find her footing and 22 00:01:10,459 --> 00:01:13,580 S2: right the ship. So that time has passed. And in 23 00:01:13,580 --> 00:01:16,660 S2: his time away, he has written a book and it's 24 00:01:16,660 --> 00:01:21,100 S2: his own story, his autobiography charting his rise to run 25 00:01:21,140 --> 00:01:24,740 S2: the company Qantas for 15 years. And he delves into 26 00:01:24,940 --> 00:01:29,740 S2: all of his most controversial and headline grabbing decisions that 27 00:01:29,740 --> 00:01:30,220 S2: he made. 28 00:01:30,260 --> 00:01:31,980 S1: Okay, so let's get into his take in just a 29 00:01:31,980 --> 00:01:34,900 S1: little bit. But first off, can you just remind listeners of, 30 00:01:34,940 --> 00:01:38,059 S1: I guess, the scandals really that took place during Alan 31 00:01:38,060 --> 00:01:41,340 S1: Joyce's tenure at Qantas? Because I think it's safe to 32 00:01:41,340 --> 00:01:45,220 S1: say he angered a lot of people. He experienced considerable 33 00:01:45,220 --> 00:01:48,580 S1: political and consumer backlash before, like you say, he left 34 00:01:48,580 --> 00:01:51,460 S1: the company in 2023. So what happened, Chris? 35 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:55,020 S2: Well, it was a number of things when Covid hit, 36 00:01:55,020 --> 00:01:58,419 S2: or I should say, even before Covid hit, Alan Joyce 37 00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:02,640 S2: never shied away from a fight with another stakeholder, let's 38 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,800 S2: say in the company, particularly the unions. So he had 39 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:11,000 S2: had a long standing interest in reforming the industrial relations 40 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,280 S2: at Qantas. And he appears that he saw that there 41 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,840 S2: was a real opportunity when Covid came around. That was 42 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,680 S2: a period where a lot of companies were standing, people down, 43 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,079 S2: they were having to halt operations. And at that time 44 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,400 S2: the decision was taken not directly by Joyce, but it 45 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,720 S2: was happening on his watch to fire about 1800 ground 46 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,760 S2: crew for Qantas. And this would. What this is going 47 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,400 S2: to reduce the cost or the labor costs for the company. 48 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,720 S2: So that happened. And that was sort of one of 49 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,160 S2: the first major moves. That was a source of quite 50 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,239 S2: a bit of outrage on the union side. And immediately 51 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,359 S2: the Transport Workers Union filed a suit against this move. 52 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,600 S2: But that was really just the beginning of of a 53 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,079 S2: series of events. There were events like the so-called ghost 54 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,560 S2: flight sales. So this is where Qantas was charged with 55 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,610 S2: having sold something like 8000 tickets for flights that no 56 00:03:01,610 --> 00:03:05,810 S2: longer existed. There was also, if you recall, during Covid, 57 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:07,889 S2: there were moments where people had booked flights but were 58 00:03:07,889 --> 00:03:10,209 S2: no longer able to fly, so they had flight credits 59 00:03:10,210 --> 00:03:13,090 S2: with airlines. This was a saga with Qantas where they 60 00:03:13,090 --> 00:03:16,050 S2: were sending out updates saying, your flight credit is going 61 00:03:16,050 --> 00:03:19,089 S2: to expire if you don't use it, and yet people 62 00:03:19,090 --> 00:03:21,810 S2: had no ability to use it. On top of that, 63 00:03:21,810 --> 00:03:24,650 S2: under Australian consumer law, they weren't actually supposed to be 64 00:03:24,690 --> 00:03:27,049 S2: flight credits. They were actually supposed to be told that 65 00:03:27,050 --> 00:03:29,890 S2: they were entitled to a refund. And then as people 66 00:03:29,889 --> 00:03:32,810 S2: got really upset and they were coming back into the airport, 67 00:03:32,850 --> 00:03:36,810 S2: Qantas was not really prepared for the crush of passengers 68 00:03:36,810 --> 00:03:40,250 S2: that were coming. Joyce would make comments like passengers themselves 69 00:03:40,250 --> 00:03:43,650 S2: weren't match fit for travel, which was just like an 70 00:03:43,770 --> 00:03:47,050 S2: incredibly insulting to the public that had waited and endured 71 00:03:47,050 --> 00:03:49,930 S2: all these months at home, paid for tickets that they 72 00:03:49,930 --> 00:03:52,650 S2: couldn't use, then had to pay more to to get 73 00:03:52,650 --> 00:03:54,690 S2: on these flights and then be told that they weren't 74 00:03:54,730 --> 00:03:56,290 S2: basically being good customers. 75 00:03:56,410 --> 00:03:58,250 S1: It's a lot. And then to pile on to it, 76 00:03:58,290 --> 00:04:00,950 S1: and this is very interesting timing considering his book comes 77 00:04:00,950 --> 00:04:04,430 S1: out today. You recently wrote about the more than 1800 workers, 78 00:04:04,430 --> 00:04:07,630 S1: like you mentioned before, who were dismissed by Qantas during Covid. 79 00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:09,190 S1: You know, their case went all the way to the 80 00:04:09,190 --> 00:04:12,190 S1: High Court, which then ruled in their favor, announcing that 81 00:04:12,190 --> 00:04:15,270 S1: they'd been illegally dismissed. So how are they faring? 82 00:04:15,390 --> 00:04:18,870 S2: Yes, it's been a very long and challenging process for 83 00:04:18,870 --> 00:04:22,350 S2: them because they have to be assessed for the economic 84 00:04:22,350 --> 00:04:25,589 S2: loss and then also the non-economic loss. So the economic 85 00:04:25,589 --> 00:04:28,030 S2: loss is how much work that they've missed since they 86 00:04:28,029 --> 00:04:30,630 S2: were fired, how long they worked for the company and 87 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:33,190 S2: the like. The non-economic loss is sort of the pain 88 00:04:33,190 --> 00:04:38,390 S2: and suffering humiliation, but also, you know, medical psychological issues 89 00:04:38,390 --> 00:04:41,789 S2: relating to this sort of, you know, traumatic loss of 90 00:04:41,830 --> 00:04:44,270 S2: their employment. And this is very hard for a lot 91 00:04:44,270 --> 00:04:46,430 S2: of people also, because a lot of the people who 92 00:04:46,430 --> 00:04:49,710 S2: were laid off were, you know, 50s 60s, they were 93 00:04:49,710 --> 00:04:51,750 S2: close to retirement. So they're not really in a position 94 00:04:51,750 --> 00:04:53,950 S2: to find a new job. I talked to a labor 95 00:04:53,950 --> 00:04:56,310 S2: expert who was talking about the, the impact of these 96 00:04:56,350 --> 00:04:59,130 S2: sort of sudden layoffs, sudden loss of jobs. And it's 97 00:04:59,130 --> 00:05:02,450 S2: it's quite stressful because it's very hard to manage and 98 00:05:02,450 --> 00:05:04,570 S2: to foresee where you're going to, where you're going to 99 00:05:04,570 --> 00:05:07,770 S2: go next. And that uncertainty and that lingering uncertainty can 100 00:05:07,770 --> 00:05:10,650 S2: have a real impact on somebody's mental health. 101 00:05:10,690 --> 00:05:12,969 S1: Okay. Well, let's get into Alan Joyce then, and his book. 102 00:05:13,010 --> 00:05:15,210 S1: I mean, really, why should we care about his side 103 00:05:15,210 --> 00:05:17,810 S1: of the story? Now, I think, you know, many listeners 104 00:05:17,810 --> 00:05:19,650 S1: might be listening to this and thinking, well, listen, this 105 00:05:19,650 --> 00:05:24,290 S1: man collected a $3.8 million payout on leaving Qantas. Obviously, 106 00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:27,969 S1: a lot of people, both customers and former staff, they 107 00:05:28,170 --> 00:05:31,409 S1: have been left feeling, you know, not well treated by Qantas. Right. 108 00:05:31,410 --> 00:05:34,250 S1: So why do we care about Alan Joyce's story now Chris. 109 00:05:34,370 --> 00:05:37,410 S2: Well I mean he was the CEO of the biggest 110 00:05:37,410 --> 00:05:40,250 S2: airline in Australia for 15 years. He was a fixture 111 00:05:40,250 --> 00:05:43,210 S2: obviously in the in the you know, in the public sphere. Right. 112 00:05:43,250 --> 00:05:46,450 S2: He was somebody that was actually rather outspoken, not just 113 00:05:46,450 --> 00:05:50,490 S2: about issues within Qantas, but issues that were going on nationally. 114 00:05:50,490 --> 00:05:53,969 S2: So he was very involved in the marriage equality movement. 115 00:05:54,010 --> 00:05:57,890 S2: He's also outspoken on the indigenous voice to Parliament. And 116 00:05:57,890 --> 00:06:01,029 S2: So he is sort of a a notable news figure 117 00:06:01,029 --> 00:06:03,990 S2: in this way, never shy of a soundbite, never shy 118 00:06:03,990 --> 00:06:06,510 S2: of a controversy. But then I think the other element 119 00:06:06,510 --> 00:06:09,950 S2: that might be lost to some audience following this at 120 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:12,589 S2: home is that, as strange as it may seem, he's 121 00:06:12,630 --> 00:06:17,750 S2: actually a highly respected aviation executive in international circles. So 122 00:06:17,750 --> 00:06:20,190 S2: even though he's got this kind of, you know, uh, 123 00:06:20,230 --> 00:06:23,710 S2: you know, checkered history domestically, there are people that do 124 00:06:23,750 --> 00:06:27,110 S2: listen to what he says about the state of aviation globally. 125 00:06:27,110 --> 00:06:28,910 S2: And he is and I guess we have to give 126 00:06:28,910 --> 00:06:32,909 S2: him credit. He is an executive that has both the strength, 127 00:06:32,950 --> 00:06:36,270 S2: like the analytical strength to understand what's going on in 128 00:06:36,270 --> 00:06:39,190 S2: his business. I mean, his background was math and physics, 129 00:06:39,190 --> 00:06:42,510 S2: I believe. So he's somebody who really understood the mathematical, 130 00:06:42,550 --> 00:06:45,510 S2: you know, implications of what was happening with costs and 131 00:06:45,510 --> 00:06:49,789 S2: distribution of passengers and how networks and flight planning and 132 00:06:49,790 --> 00:06:52,590 S2: the routes would work. He understands that, but he also 133 00:06:52,630 --> 00:06:55,150 S2: had a bit of a marketing flair. I mean, he 134 00:06:55,150 --> 00:06:58,010 S2: was the mind behind this project sunrise, which you hear 135 00:06:58,010 --> 00:07:01,089 S2: so much about this ambitious plan to fly direct nonstop 136 00:07:01,089 --> 00:07:03,170 S2: from Sydney to London or Sydney to New York. This 137 00:07:03,170 --> 00:07:06,130 S2: was his baby. So he had this ability to sort of, 138 00:07:06,170 --> 00:07:08,690 S2: you know, look over the horizon and imagine what people 139 00:07:08,690 --> 00:07:11,010 S2: might be interested in. He is a guy that knows 140 00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:14,090 S2: how to he knows how to, you know, turn heads 141 00:07:14,090 --> 00:07:15,290 S2: with some of his commentary. 142 00:07:15,330 --> 00:07:17,530 S1: I mean, it's quite interesting. I mean, I guess, has 143 00:07:17,530 --> 00:07:20,450 S1: he suffered any blowback, though, within the business community? Like 144 00:07:20,490 --> 00:07:22,170 S1: amongst any circles, is he like a bit of a 145 00:07:22,170 --> 00:07:23,770 S1: persona non grata or not at all? 146 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:26,410 S2: Well, I think with the broader public he became sort 147 00:07:26,410 --> 00:07:31,730 S2: of emblematic of maybe, you know, you know, corporate overreach, 148 00:07:31,730 --> 00:07:34,330 S2: particularly at a time when people were feeling very raw 149 00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:36,810 S2: around Covid. I mean, people who were stuck in their 150 00:07:36,810 --> 00:07:40,810 S2: homes because of lockdown, suddenly paying much higher prices for everything. 151 00:07:41,570 --> 00:07:44,210 S2: First and foremost, for, for, you know, air tickets for 152 00:07:44,210 --> 00:07:46,970 S2: airfare and then for him, you know, he found himself 153 00:07:46,970 --> 00:07:49,929 S2: at certain points being accosted by members of the public. 154 00:07:49,930 --> 00:07:52,410 S2: I think his home. There were vandals at his home 155 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:55,250 S2: when he wasn't there. So he became very much a 156 00:07:55,290 --> 00:07:57,870 S2: lightning rod. As far as the business community, that's a 157 00:07:57,870 --> 00:08:01,910 S2: little bit wait and see. I've seen some commentary about, 158 00:08:01,950 --> 00:08:04,590 S2: you know, how he was seen as quite successful. I mean, 159 00:08:04,590 --> 00:08:07,870 S2: I think his view about business is very much, you know, 160 00:08:07,910 --> 00:08:11,230 S2: it's about returning shareholder value above all. And now I 161 00:08:11,230 --> 00:08:13,910 S2: think we've moved into a different period where there has 162 00:08:13,910 --> 00:08:16,510 S2: to be a slightly more holistic view of what a 163 00:08:16,510 --> 00:08:19,510 S2: business does. And if there's so much sort of collateral 164 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:22,950 S2: disruption created by this business that goes into the larger 165 00:08:22,950 --> 00:08:25,870 S2: picture of, you know, how we view an enterprise. 166 00:08:32,950 --> 00:08:41,870 S1: We'll be right back. Well, so to that end, I mean, 167 00:08:41,910 --> 00:08:43,670 S1: what does he say in this book? You know, what 168 00:08:43,670 --> 00:08:45,550 S1: does he say about his side of the story? Is 169 00:08:45,550 --> 00:08:47,790 S1: there a mea culpa with regards to, you know, the 170 00:08:47,790 --> 00:08:50,670 S1: decisions that were made during his tenure, which obviously landed 171 00:08:50,670 --> 00:08:54,230 S1: very badly? Does he justify what he did or what, 172 00:08:54,270 --> 00:08:57,120 S1: you know, those around him did? What does he say, Chris. 173 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,120 S2: It's very interesting. He doesn't hold back from apologizing and 174 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,680 S2: giving even blanket apologies for the excesses of the time 175 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:04,880 S2: when he was CEO. 176 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,079 S1: Like what, for instance, does he apologize for? 177 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,320 S2: Oh, I'm in the comments about the customers being match fit. 178 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,240 S2: I think he apologized within hours of that, but he 179 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,360 S2: apologized again, as far as the firing of the workers, 180 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,680 S2: he said, and I have to be clear here, this 181 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,160 S2: wasn't his direct decision. So he says that they they 182 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,400 S2: scrutinized the decision. They didn't approve the decision. But then 183 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,240 S2: he says if they knew everything now that they did 184 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,760 S2: at the time, and they knew that there would be 185 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,440 S2: an effective vaccine that would allow aviation to resume, then 186 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,160 S2: maybe they wouldn't have made the same decision. I don't know. 187 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,520 S1: But wait, wait, can I just interrupt there for a second? 188 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,720 S1: So is he saying that he wasn't the final sign 189 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,600 S1: off on that decision? Is he saying that he is 190 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,719 S1: not responsible for that decision? 191 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,960 S2: Well, he says and this is the interesting thing. He 192 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,560 S2: says he's responsible for everything that happened when he was CEO. 193 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,679 S2: So it's sort of a blanket, you know, acceptance of responsibility. 194 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,480 S2: But then and this is the very interesting thing about 195 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,920 S2: this book, he'll narrow down onto these decisions. And as 196 00:09:55,980 --> 00:09:59,300 S2: soon as he explains after apologizing, he'll immediately turn around 197 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:00,939 S2: and say, but here's all the things that you need 198 00:10:00,940 --> 00:10:04,140 S2: to know about why other people got it wrong as well, 199 00:10:04,140 --> 00:10:07,660 S2: why there's this incorrect perception about what the company was doing, say, 200 00:10:07,660 --> 00:10:10,860 S2: with the so-called ghost flights. This he attributes this to 201 00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:14,300 S2: this sort of technical issue, where the airline could not 202 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:17,699 S2: tell the public quickly enough that these flights weren't going 203 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,980 S2: to fly because of a communications issue. Similar with the 204 00:10:20,980 --> 00:10:23,980 S2: flight credits, he says along those lines that the call 205 00:10:23,980 --> 00:10:26,500 S2: center was overwhelmed. They couldn't get the message out quickly 206 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:29,420 S2: enough that these credits people would still have access to them. 207 00:10:29,420 --> 00:10:31,140 S2: But then it's things like, well, then why didn't you 208 00:10:31,140 --> 00:10:33,620 S2: just take the expiry date off? And he says, well, 209 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:35,900 S2: we kept the expiry date on to ensure that there 210 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:38,660 S2: was enough of a motive for people to want to respond. But, 211 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:40,820 S2: I mean, they're calling into a call center that's got 212 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:42,940 S2: like an eight hour wait on it. So, I mean, 213 00:10:42,980 --> 00:10:45,459 S2: it starts to become a bit like, you know, you 214 00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:47,339 S2: have to look at it with your own critical eye. 215 00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:50,340 S1: Chris, is this book a non-apology apology? 216 00:10:50,380 --> 00:10:52,020 S2: You know, I would say it like this. It's an 217 00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:56,440 S2: apology followed almost immediately by a detailed explanation about what 218 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:57,920 S2: everybody else got wrong. 219 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,439 S1: That doesn't sound like a good apology. Chris, having not 220 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,720 S1: read the book, I mean, do any of us like 221 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,120 S1: that apology in real life when someone goes, I'm really sorry, 222 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,280 S1: but every psychologist worth their salt always says, don't do that. 223 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:11,240 S1: Don't do that. 224 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,960 S2: Yeah, there is an element of which I find, I mean, 225 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,880 S2: that's a very interesting aspect of the personality, which is that, 226 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,400 S2: you know, he's big enough to apologize, but then he's 227 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,000 S2: also has this like, no, you must understand it is 228 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,520 S2: this it is that it? Is this. 229 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:26,440 S1: Okay? But I want to ask you then, like, let's 230 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,760 S1: drill down into it. Does Alan Joyce take responsibility? Does 231 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,360 S1: he accept that he was just wrong and had really 232 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,679 S1: made the wrong call when the company sacked these 1800 233 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:40,280 S1: workers during Covid? Obviously, the the High Court obviously has 234 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,319 S1: agreed that's what happened, that it was illegal. Qantas agreed 235 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,960 S1: to pay $120 million in compensation to the workers. Then 236 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,520 S1: it was fined another $90 million by the court for 237 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,160 S1: not being sufficiently contrite. And I believe I don't know 238 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,580 S1: how many of them, but I believe the workers, many 239 00:11:55,580 --> 00:11:57,060 S1: of them, if not all of them, are still waiting 240 00:11:57,059 --> 00:11:58,780 S1: for compensation. Is that right? 241 00:11:58,820 --> 00:12:01,179 S2: That's right, that's right. They're waiting for compensation as they 242 00:12:01,179 --> 00:12:04,460 S2: go through this process and figure out exactly how much 243 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:08,820 S2: each individual victim is owed based on their individual circumstances. 244 00:12:09,140 --> 00:12:11,980 S1: Okay, so the company was fined an additional. I find 245 00:12:11,980 --> 00:12:14,900 S1: that's so interesting. Was it $90 million for not being 246 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:19,300 S1: sufficiently contrite in this book? Is Alan Joyce sufficiently contrite? Chris. 247 00:12:19,540 --> 00:12:21,900 S2: I don't want to judge myself, but it is his 248 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:24,980 S2: account of events. And I would say that if you're 249 00:12:24,980 --> 00:12:30,020 S2: looking for pure contrition, you might not get that. Exactly. 250 00:12:30,059 --> 00:12:32,700 S2: I mean, it's it is contrition, but with a heavy 251 00:12:33,059 --> 00:12:37,060 S2: helping of, you know, explanation. And you must understand, and 252 00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:39,020 S2: other people don't understand that this is the way that 253 00:12:39,020 --> 00:12:41,980 S2: the world works. And a lot of other explanations that 254 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:46,059 S2: many people may find not very compelling. Having said that, 255 00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:47,300 S2: it's an interesting read. 256 00:12:47,660 --> 00:12:49,500 S1: And so I'm just curious, you mentioned there that he's 257 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:51,380 S1: got all kinds of caveats. You know, he might sort 258 00:12:51,380 --> 00:12:53,820 S1: of express some contrition, but then there's all kinds of caveats. 259 00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:56,400 S1: So what are his caveats about, for instance, the decision 260 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,679 S1: to sack these 1800 workers during Covid? 261 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,280 S2: Well, he points out that in August 2020, when this 262 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,280 S2: decision was made, the expectations for the impact of Covid 263 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,679 S2: on aviation were incredibly dramatic. In fact, he says that 264 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,400 S2: they were thinking at the time it would be worse 265 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,959 S2: than September 11th, worse than the global financial crisis. And 266 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,240 S2: in fact, Qantas wasn't, you know, was contemplating getting rid 267 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,880 S2: of 10,000 employees. So to give you some context, they 268 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,400 S2: have less than 30,000 employees in the company. So that 269 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,400 S2: would have been massive. So I think his argument is, 270 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,679 S2: you know, hindsight is a great thing. We can look 271 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,679 S2: back and say this was an excessive move to get 272 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:34,800 S2: rid of these workers in such a way. But his 273 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,959 S2: argument is that if you roll back the clock to 274 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,280 S2: that time, we were considering something much more dramatic. 275 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,080 S1: And so, Chris, just to wrap up, what is the 276 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,000 S1: state of Qantas reputation now? You know, did the ghost 277 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,200 S1: flights and the sacking of the workers and all the 278 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,079 S1: controversy that occurred in Covid? You know, did it leave 279 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,439 S1: its reputation in tatters and how does it recover? 280 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,580 S2: Well, I should say I mean, there's a class action 281 00:13:55,580 --> 00:13:58,820 S2: suit against Qantas for the compensation for people who've lost 282 00:13:58,820 --> 00:14:01,020 S2: money on these flights that have paid in and they 283 00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:03,860 S2: never got the full amount back as well. So it's 284 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:07,140 S2: it's sort of been this, you know, this ongoing scandal 285 00:14:07,140 --> 00:14:10,740 S2: that has shadowed the company. So when Joyce stepped down, 286 00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:13,860 S2: the then CFO, Vanessa Hudson, took over as CEO. And 287 00:14:13,860 --> 00:14:17,540 S2: she has been quite methodical about rebuilding, as she says, 288 00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:21,260 S2: sort of trust not just between Qantas and its customers, 289 00:14:21,260 --> 00:14:24,180 S2: but internally. And this has been quite a bit of work. 290 00:14:24,220 --> 00:14:27,540 S2: I can only say anecdotally, it seems like there is 291 00:14:27,820 --> 00:14:31,140 S2: some traction there. I don't think that the Qantas brand 292 00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:35,140 S2: has been damaged forever, but it is clearly quite a 293 00:14:35,140 --> 00:14:37,820 S2: lot to live down. And so the current leadership of 294 00:14:37,820 --> 00:14:40,260 S2: Qantas is aware of this. And they've been taking steps 295 00:14:40,260 --> 00:14:42,220 S2: to try to build that up. But again I mean 296 00:14:42,260 --> 00:14:44,980 S2: the cost of flying is high. There's always a lot 297 00:14:44,980 --> 00:14:48,740 S2: of dissatisfaction with the service that people get. They're always 298 00:14:48,740 --> 00:14:52,260 S2: very ready to sort of pounce after they hear all these, 299 00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:55,030 S2: you know, these lofty statements about caring about the customer. 300 00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:57,550 S2: If there's a gap between what the company is promising 301 00:14:57,550 --> 00:15:00,750 S2: and what it delivers, people don't hold back about, you know, 302 00:15:00,790 --> 00:15:03,590 S2: that experience. So there's still some ways to go. But 303 00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:05,910 S2: I do think that the Qantas at this point is, 304 00:15:05,950 --> 00:15:08,230 S2: you know, they're trying to change the page on this. 305 00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:09,910 S2: They would point out that all of these things that 306 00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:14,110 S2: have happened in court are now legally they're history for Qantas. 307 00:15:14,110 --> 00:15:16,910 S2: So now this history of this time really sits in 308 00:15:16,910 --> 00:15:18,390 S2: the lap of Alan Joyce. 309 00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:27,270 S1: Thank you so much for your time. 310 00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:28,270 S2: Thank you Sam. 311 00:15:45,310 --> 00:15:48,870 S1: In other news, today, the nation's sprawling suburbs would be 312 00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:52,430 S1: transformed under a plan from the Productivity Commission to make 313 00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:57,130 S1: the property market affordable, with three storey developments allowed everywhere 314 00:15:57,370 --> 00:16:00,570 S1: and high rise apartment blocks built near train, tram and 315 00:16:00,570 --> 00:16:04,490 S1: bus stations. Experts have warned it is not safe for 316 00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:08,010 S1: schools to post images and videos of their students and staff, 317 00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:11,570 S1: as the E-safety regulator records a spike in reports of 318 00:16:11,570 --> 00:16:16,930 S1: school related artificial intelligence, image misuse and a new Australian 319 00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:20,650 S1: made non-alcoholic sparkling wine from a local beer brewer has 320 00:16:20,650 --> 00:16:23,770 S1: hit the market. And we have the first verdict. You 321 00:16:23,770 --> 00:16:31,450 S1: can read more at the age.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode 322 00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:35,890 S1: was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, 323 00:16:36,010 --> 00:16:40,130 S1: and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. 324 00:16:40,450 --> 00:16:43,330 S1: If you like our show, follow The Morning Edition and 325 00:16:43,330 --> 00:16:46,650 S1: leave a review for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks 326 00:16:46,650 --> 00:16:47,450 S1: for listening.