WEBVTT - ‘Locking up the bush’: Inside the national parks culture wars 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:04.400 From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:08.039 This is the morning edition. I'm Julia Katzel, filling in 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:15.880 for Samantha Selinger. Morris. It's Wednesday, February 12th. Camping, fishing, 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:18.640 hunting and four wheel driving are just some of the 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:22.759 ways Aussies experience the bush every day. But there are 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:27.640 activities that are now, according to some, under threat. New 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:31.920 land management proposals by state governments to protect the environment 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.560 have been met with fierce backlash from some Bush users, 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:40.839 who claim the government is, quote, locking up the bush. Today, 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.279 environment and climate reporter Bianca Hall on whether a balance 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:55.160 of both environmental protection and our recreation is achievable. So, Bianca, 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:59.560 you've been privy to some culture wars online involving recreational 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.750 bush user groups. Those four wheel drivers, those who hunt 0:01:03.750 --> 0:01:07.830 and fish and they're pretty incensed about something at the moment. 0:01:07.870 --> 0:01:10.150 Can you tell me what they're upset about? 0:01:10.350 --> 0:01:13.190 So national parks, we like to think of them as 0:01:13.190 --> 0:01:18.310 places we can go bushwalking and reconnect with nature and 0:01:18.310 --> 0:01:20.910 take our kids. But they've been the focus of a 0:01:20.910 --> 0:01:23.950 bit of a culture war lately, which would probably come 0:01:23.950 --> 0:01:25.990 as a surprise to a lot of people who enjoy 0:01:25.990 --> 0:01:30.470 using them for some background in Victoria. The state government, 0:01:30.470 --> 0:01:33.430 the then Andrews government, announced the phase out of native 0:01:33.430 --> 0:01:36.470 logging by the 1st of January this year. That came 0:01:36.470 --> 0:01:40.990 with a nearly $900 million package to support timber workers 0:01:41.030 --> 0:01:44.150 exiting the industry, and also to look at how to 0:01:44.150 --> 0:01:49.030 transform the former state forests into future use. Some of 0:01:49.030 --> 0:01:51.590 that could be national parks, some of it could be 0:01:51.630 --> 0:01:54.710 state forests. A similar issue is playing out in New 0:01:54.710 --> 0:01:57.750 South Wales as well, where the Minns government has promised 0:01:57.750 --> 0:02:00.260 before the last election to election to establish a Great 0:02:00.260 --> 0:02:03.540 Koala National Park in state forests that are currently logged. 0:02:04.940 --> 0:02:08.620 So the Victorian government established a Great Outdoors Task Force 0:02:08.620 --> 0:02:12.340 to examine the future use and management of these forests. 0:02:12.340 --> 0:02:14.260 And then the backlash began. 0:02:14.900 --> 0:02:18.619 Melbourne hundreds gathered from all corners of Victoria to scream 0:02:18.620 --> 0:02:20.620 hands off our state forests! 0:02:20.660 --> 0:02:23.100 This government locked us down. Now they want to lock 0:02:23.100 --> 0:02:25.580 us out. And I say enough is enough. 0:02:25.620 --> 0:02:29.579 The various groups are opposing the push to turn state 0:02:29.580 --> 0:02:32.060 forests into national parks, because they think that they're going 0:02:32.060 --> 0:02:33.900 to be locked out of these areas. 0:02:34.380 --> 0:02:38.139 Demonstrators at Drouin fear that will stop them from camping, 0:02:38.180 --> 0:02:40.739 hunting or accessing those areas altogether. 0:02:40.780 --> 0:02:43.420 What other culture have you got in Australia? This is it. 0:02:43.419 --> 0:02:44.619 Let's put it to bed. 0:02:45.300 --> 0:02:48.380 So in Victoria, there's a motley crew, as I've described them, 0:02:48.419 --> 0:02:54.019 of gold prospectors, four wheel drive enthusiasts, shooters, fishers, horse 0:02:54.060 --> 0:02:57.340 riders and other bush users groups. They're also being heavily 0:02:57.340 --> 0:03:02.010 backed nationwide by the Electrical Trades Union. We have seen 0:03:02.010 --> 0:03:05.970 a number of online petitions. The most recent has attracted 0:03:05.970 --> 0:03:11.769 34,000 signatures. This is the biggest petition in Victorian parliamentary history. 0:03:11.970 --> 0:03:16.769 It actually is bigger than the 1891 seminal petition in 0:03:16.770 --> 0:03:19.410 support of women's suffrage. If you can believe that. 0:03:19.450 --> 0:03:20.089 Wow. 0:03:20.130 --> 0:03:22.690 I mean, there is a real culture war aspect to 0:03:22.690 --> 0:03:27.489 this as well. In some of the more fringy elements 0:03:27.490 --> 0:03:31.650 of the debate, we've had people recommending everyone raise the 0:03:31.650 --> 0:03:35.490 Australian flag in their front yard. There's been people advocating 0:03:35.490 --> 0:03:38.490 a withdrawal from the United Nations. Perhaps that's a little 0:03:38.490 --> 0:03:41.770 bit more fringy and accusing greenies of trying to lock 0:03:41.770 --> 0:03:45.010 up the bush. There's also been some backing by groups 0:03:45.010 --> 0:03:49.530 including the Freedom Party of Australia and Advance Australia. So 0:03:49.530 --> 0:03:52.170 there definitely are groups trying to whip up a culture 0:03:52.210 --> 0:03:52.810 war here. 0:03:55.810 --> 0:03:59.320 And misinformation can be central to some of these campaigns, 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:03.080 which is what we saw in another campaign against Great 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.720 Northern Beer. So can you tell me more about that case? 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.560 Yeah, this was a good one. So Great Northern Beer 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:14.880 launched a outdoors for a cause campaign, was heavily marketed. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.640 By Great Northern Brewing Co. The beer for Up Here. 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.839 It aimed to match donations to buy private land holdings 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.080 and turn them into national parks for public use. An 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:30.120 online campaign by detractors accused the brewer of going woke 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.080 and trying to lock up state forests and turn them 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.280 into national parks. So it was clearly misinformation, but that 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.080 didn't stop anyone from getting excited about it online. 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.279 One of Australia's most popular beer brands has come under 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:47.880 fire this week for its woke advertising campaign, leaving customers outraged. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.000 What the bloody hell is Great Northern thinking back in 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.919 the idea of locking up the bush? Um, so I 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:55.960 can tell you now, I won't be drinking Great Northern 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.750 from now on. And, um. This used to be my 0:04:59.750 --> 0:05:01.710 favorite beer before you went. Whoa. 0:05:02.150 --> 0:05:05.950 People filmed themselves backing their enormous yurts over six packs 0:05:05.950 --> 0:05:12.710 of Great Northern beer. They filmed themselves tipping the beer out. 0:05:12.710 --> 0:05:15.630 They said they would never drink the beer again. Funnily enough, 0:05:15.630 --> 0:05:19.150 Great Northern Beer markets itself as an outdoors kind of 0:05:19.190 --> 0:05:22.550 beer to take fishing and camping. They've got all the 0:05:22.550 --> 0:05:27.870 associated merch. The CEO of Carlton and United Breweries subsequently 0:05:27.870 --> 0:05:31.789 left the company after the brouhaha, but a spokesperson for 0:05:31.790 --> 0:05:35.910 Asahi told Adnews his departure was unrelated to the online storm, 0:05:36.470 --> 0:05:38.870 but people online feel they got a scalp out of 0:05:38.870 --> 0:05:39.390 that one. 0:05:41.510 --> 0:05:46.230 So these proposals by both state governments, they're looking at 0:05:46.230 --> 0:05:51.550 converting what were state forests into national parks and essentially 0:05:51.550 --> 0:05:56.099 limiting some of the activities for bush users. So what 0:05:56.100 --> 0:05:59.300 are the major differences between a national park and a 0:05:59.300 --> 0:06:02.060 state forest? And is this claim of locking up the 0:06:02.060 --> 0:06:03.700 bush accurate or not? 0:06:03.980 --> 0:06:06.220 Well, this is a tricky one because what you can 0:06:06.260 --> 0:06:08.940 and can't do in a national park depends on the 0:06:08.940 --> 0:06:12.940 national park. So in Kosciuszko, in New South Wales, for example, 0:06:12.940 --> 0:06:17.140 you can hunt deer if you have a licence. In Victoria, 0:06:17.260 --> 0:06:20.500 in some national parks you can also hunt, but you 0:06:20.500 --> 0:06:24.100 can't hunt at Wilsons prom, for example. In a lot 0:06:24.100 --> 0:06:26.660 of national parks, you can drive your four wheel drive 0:06:27.020 --> 0:06:30.580 on roads, and in some national parks, you can drive 0:06:30.620 --> 0:06:33.140 a four wheel drive off road. But it really does 0:06:33.140 --> 0:06:34.940 depend on the park itself. 0:06:35.300 --> 0:06:39.140 So would you say that the national park status does 0:06:39.140 --> 0:06:42.580 mean more environmental protection? Is one managed better than the other? 0:06:42.620 --> 0:06:44.260 Well, exactly. I mean, this is the point of a 0:06:44.260 --> 0:06:49.260 national park is to protect endangered and imperiled flora and fauna. So, 0:06:49.260 --> 0:06:52.419 for example, in Victoria, we have mountain ash forests, which 0:06:52.700 --> 0:06:56.170 are one of the most dense carbon sinks in the world. 0:06:56.650 --> 0:06:59.250 They're the tallest flowering plant in the world. They are 0:06:59.250 --> 0:07:03.890 absolutely beautiful, and they provide crucial habitat for greater gliders 0:07:03.890 --> 0:07:07.930 and sugar gliders, which rely on the hollows in old 0:07:07.930 --> 0:07:11.530 growth forests for their for their homes. If they don't 0:07:11.530 --> 0:07:15.650 have old forests, they just become extinct. And as we 0:07:15.650 --> 0:07:19.610 all know, koalas are threatened all over the country. The 0:07:19.610 --> 0:07:22.810 Great Koala National Park in New South Wales could link 0:07:22.810 --> 0:07:25.930 up a bunch of different state forests and different parks 0:07:25.930 --> 0:07:30.090 to create almost a super national park that would give 0:07:30.130 --> 0:07:33.970 koalas a big area to roam. So national parks are really, 0:07:33.970 --> 0:07:38.050 really important thing for protecting our beloved native wildlife. 0:07:39.370 --> 0:07:39.890 We'll be right. 0:07:39.890 --> 0:07:40.250 Back. 0:07:43.570 --> 0:07:47.330 Bianca. Central to the campaigners argument is that locking up 0:07:47.330 --> 0:07:51.290 public forests would actually lead to a risk of bushfires, 0:07:51.610 --> 0:07:54.400 and would place the environment in greater peril. Is there 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:55.560 any truth to that claim? 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.120 So to get into the weeds of the argument, as 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.360 you might say, a lot of what you see in 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:04.760 state forests is actually quite denuded vegetation. You'll see a 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:08.360 lot of empty undergrowth with some trees, but in a 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.040 national park you might see a lot more dense vegetation. 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.000 And that's partly because they're not used so much. But 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:20.200 also national parks are created for their own protection there 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.360 to protect the animals that live within them. And they're 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.800 protecting the forests. So a big complaint by people who 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:31.080 are opposed to national parks is that the national park 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.800 allegedly gets left to build up the undergrowth, builds up 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:39.240 a lot. People aren't allowed to take firewood out of 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.800 there to use to burn in their own homes. And 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.360 so the argument goes that they become absolute fire traps. 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:49.320 I think it's safe to say that that is fairly 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:54.750 solidly misinformation. Forest ecologists and conservationists will say that the 0:08:54.750 --> 0:08:58.270 thing that is leading to more frequent and more high 0:08:58.270 --> 0:09:03.750 intensity bushfires isn't a build up of growth. It is 0:09:03.750 --> 0:09:06.990 climate change. It is climate change that's fuelling a drying 0:09:06.990 --> 0:09:11.630 out of vegetation. It's climate change that's fuelling higher winds. 0:09:11.830 --> 0:09:15.189 And they say that when you don't have the understory 0:09:15.190 --> 0:09:18.469 of wet forest to keep a forest protected, then you 0:09:18.470 --> 0:09:22.910 get higher intensity bushfires. What is actually happening in a 0:09:22.910 --> 0:09:26.390 lot of national parks, and also, you'd have to say 0:09:26.390 --> 0:09:30.709 in state forests, is that state governments probably don't have 0:09:30.710 --> 0:09:33.150 the money or the resources to look after them, as 0:09:33.150 --> 0:09:37.350 well as they should be being looked after. And Bush users, 0:09:37.350 --> 0:09:41.110 groups and conservationists are actually united on this point that 0:09:41.110 --> 0:09:43.709 they would like to see more resources going into managing 0:09:43.710 --> 0:09:44.750 these areas better. 0:09:44.950 --> 0:09:48.030 Yeah. And so you spoke before about this Bush user 0:09:48.030 --> 0:09:51.309 group amassing, you know, tens of thousands of signatures in 0:09:51.309 --> 0:09:55.540 its petition against national parks in Victoria. But other polling 0:09:55.580 --> 0:09:57.500 tells a different story. Can you tell me about that? 0:09:57.660 --> 0:10:02.580 Yeah, correct. So Monash University conducted a pretty widespread survey 0:10:02.740 --> 0:10:06.300 in November and December. They polled about three times the 0:10:06.300 --> 0:10:09.780 number of people that would typically be polled in a Newspoll, 0:10:09.780 --> 0:10:14.460 for example, 3500 people for the Biodiversity Council of Australia. 0:10:14.860 --> 0:10:19.939 They found that 72% of people supported establishing new national parks, 0:10:19.940 --> 0:10:23.739 and that's to protect natural and cultural values, while 5% 0:10:23.740 --> 0:10:27.660 of people were opposed. So that is a clear majority. 0:10:28.059 --> 0:10:30.860 It's also more common for people who vote left to 0:10:30.900 --> 0:10:34.540 support new national parks. The overwhelming majority, I think it 0:10:34.540 --> 0:10:38.699 was 82% of Greens voters supported them, but that's still 0:10:39.059 --> 0:10:44.100 compared with 61% of nationals voters. So it's a clear majority. 0:10:44.340 --> 0:10:47.460 So, Bianca, this is a real challenge for state governments 0:10:47.500 --> 0:10:50.579 going ahead in Victoria, managing land that was once used 0:10:50.730 --> 0:10:53.850 for logging and in New South Wales, attempting to save 0:10:53.850 --> 0:10:57.530 the endangered koala. So how do we achieve a balance 0:10:57.530 --> 0:11:00.970 here in allowing both nature to be experienced while also 0:11:00.970 --> 0:11:02.290 protecting the environment? 0:11:02.330 --> 0:11:04.650 Well, this is the central question, isn't it? And I 0:11:04.650 --> 0:11:07.930 think one thing that's important to remember is that people 0:11:07.929 --> 0:11:12.290 aren't locked out of national parks. We are encouraged as 0:11:12.290 --> 0:11:15.130 Australians to get out into our national parks and to 0:11:15.170 --> 0:11:19.729 enjoy the spaces and to, you know, really take those moments, 0:11:19.730 --> 0:11:22.329 but to do it in a respectful way that is 0:11:22.330 --> 0:11:26.890 gentle on the environment. And national parks are areas where 0:11:27.570 --> 0:11:32.730 some really delicate landscapes and native animals are trying to 0:11:32.730 --> 0:11:35.810 be protected. If you want to go and drive your 0:11:35.809 --> 0:11:39.410 ute on four wheel drive tracks, there are places to 0:11:39.410 --> 0:11:41.890 do that. But there are also places where you can 0:11:41.890 --> 0:11:44.690 go out and take nothing but a backpack and your 0:11:44.690 --> 0:11:48.530 runners and go and, you know, climb a mountain and 0:11:48.530 --> 0:11:52.559 commune with nature and leave nothing but your footprints behind. 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.320 Well, thank you so much for your time today, Bianca. 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:56.200 Thanks so much. 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.160 Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by me, 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:12.199 Julia Katzel. Our executive producer is Tami Mills. Tom McKendrick 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.680 is our head of audio. The Morning Edition is a 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.920 production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.760 you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:23.840 subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:29.760 support what we do. Search the Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.960 and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.959 a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.640 and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:45.000 the show. Notes. I'm Julia Katzel. This is the morning edition. 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.480 Thanks for listening.