1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,600 S1: No jab, no play policies mean unvaccinated children can't be 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,680 S1: enrolled in childcare or preschool in most Australian jurisdictions. But 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,880 S1: some parents have found ways to evade those laws. According 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,040 S1: to an investigation by reporter Kayla Olaya, these parents are 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,560 S1: using Facebook groups to share the contacts of doctors who 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:31,040 S1: will falsify their children's immunization records. This as vaccine uptake 7 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,640 S1: in Australia has stalled below national targets. I'm Julia Karkazis 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,880 S1: and you're listening to Morning Edition from The Age and 9 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:52,200 S1: Sydney Morning Herald. It's Monday, February 2nd. So Kayla, welcome 10 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,199 S1: to the podcast. 11 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,240 S2: Hi. Thanks so much for having me, Julia. 12 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,320 S1: Now, you've been reporting on parents who have boasted about 13 00:00:59,450 --> 00:01:04,410 S1: finding doctors and nurses online to falsify their children's vaccination records. 14 00:01:04,730 --> 00:01:07,130 S1: How did you discover this was happening? And can you 15 00:01:07,130 --> 00:01:09,450 S1: tell me a bit about how this actually works? 16 00:01:09,770 --> 00:01:13,010 S2: Yeah, so the discovery of it was quite random. I 17 00:01:13,050 --> 00:01:16,290 S2: saw it on my Facebook just naturally scrolling, and I 18 00:01:16,330 --> 00:01:22,209 S2: saw a really specific post by an anonymous participant in 19 00:01:22,209 --> 00:01:25,570 S2: this Facebook group for unvaccinated children that read, I can 20 00:01:25,569 --> 00:01:28,009 S2: get your child's full immunization schedule up to date and 21 00:01:28,010 --> 00:01:31,490 S2: uploaded to your Medicare file without any jab being administered. 22 00:01:31,770 --> 00:01:33,569 S2: And no, it's not a scam. I've helped hundreds of 23 00:01:33,569 --> 00:01:36,570 S2: people since the Covid pandemic up until now. DM me 24 00:01:36,569 --> 00:01:40,770 S2: on signal if interested. My username is X and I 25 00:01:40,770 --> 00:01:43,850 S2: thought it was obviously quite outrageous. I didn't really understand 26 00:01:43,850 --> 00:01:47,410 S2: what was at the heart of this, whether it was 27 00:01:47,410 --> 00:01:51,650 S2: someone hacking Medicare. But then after speaking with a colleague 28 00:01:51,650 --> 00:01:55,730 S2: from the health department in my newsroom, they told me 29 00:01:55,730 --> 00:02:00,130 S2: that no, this is most likely a nurse. It's most 30 00:02:00,130 --> 00:02:03,050 S2: likely a doctor. And then that led me kind of 31 00:02:03,090 --> 00:02:08,609 S2: into this realm of unvaccinated children. Facebook groups where a 32 00:02:08,610 --> 00:02:12,530 S2: lot of parents are boasting mainly using that anonymous feature 33 00:02:12,530 --> 00:02:16,010 S2: on Facebook to say, I've paid, or I know a 34 00:02:16,010 --> 00:02:23,130 S2: nurse who will charge $2,500 per child to alter the 35 00:02:23,330 --> 00:02:24,410 S2: Medicare records. 36 00:02:24,690 --> 00:02:28,130 S1: So, Kayla, what are the rules around vaccinations and education? 37 00:02:28,530 --> 00:02:32,530 S2: So there are two nation wide policies. They're both called 38 00:02:32,530 --> 00:02:35,489 S2: quite similar things. One is called the no pay, no jab, 39 00:02:35,490 --> 00:02:37,489 S2: and the other one is the no jab, no play. 40 00:02:37,770 --> 00:02:41,570 S2: These policies mean unvaccinated children are either can't be enrolled 41 00:02:41,570 --> 00:02:44,850 S2: in childcare or preschool in most states, or face barriers, 42 00:02:45,090 --> 00:02:49,250 S2: or families lose tax benefit payments unless they have a 43 00:02:49,250 --> 00:02:53,130 S2: medical exemption or are on a vaccine catch up program. 44 00:02:53,570 --> 00:02:57,860 S2: So both of these are sort of vaccine mandate. They 45 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:01,500 S2: essentially say to parents, hey, you won't receive your full 46 00:03:01,780 --> 00:03:05,740 S2: Centrelink payment unless you have your child fully vaccinated, or 47 00:03:05,740 --> 00:03:08,020 S2: there's a legitimate reason why your child cannot be vaccinated 48 00:03:08,020 --> 00:03:10,380 S2: or you're not, or your planning and you're intending to 49 00:03:10,380 --> 00:03:13,619 S2: vaccinate your child. Otherwise, in some states, you do have 50 00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:18,220 S2: to pay complete fees, so parents just can't afford that, 51 00:03:18,540 --> 00:03:20,739 S2: or they can't afford to be a stay at home parent. 52 00:03:20,740 --> 00:03:25,980 S2: So the kind of allure of potentially paying $2,500 for 53 00:03:25,980 --> 00:03:29,579 S2: a child is, is quite big. And I mean, in 54 00:03:29,580 --> 00:03:32,340 S2: one of those Facebook posts, there was a father who 55 00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:35,820 S2: fully name attached to the post said, and I quote, 56 00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:38,460 S2: I'm grateful to share that my daughter's immunization records were 57 00:03:38,460 --> 00:03:42,460 S2: successfully updated in the database without requiring vaccination. She has 58 00:03:42,460 --> 00:03:46,220 S2: been accepted into kindergarten without issue. If you're seeking information 59 00:03:46,220 --> 00:03:48,860 S2: on alternative options for immunization records, I'd be happy to 60 00:03:48,860 --> 00:03:52,380 S2: provide more details about the medical professionals who assisted me 61 00:03:52,700 --> 00:03:54,980 S2: and most of these posts as well. I will, I 62 00:03:54,980 --> 00:03:58,430 S2: will say, have loads of comments of people saying can 63 00:03:58,430 --> 00:04:00,870 S2: you please message me? And they always are like, I've 64 00:04:00,870 --> 00:04:04,590 S2: just sent you and it's a community. And this specific 65 00:04:04,590 --> 00:04:07,869 S2: Facebook group has 40,000 members, and I'm not suggesting that 66 00:04:07,870 --> 00:04:11,070 S2: all of them are potentially anti-vaxxers. I do know that 67 00:04:11,070 --> 00:04:14,070 S2: there are a lot of posts of vaxxers who are saying, 68 00:04:14,110 --> 00:04:18,070 S2: you know, this is really murky, that this is really unethical. 69 00:04:18,430 --> 00:04:22,390 S2: And there's also anti-vaxxers in these Facebook groups who actually 70 00:04:22,390 --> 00:04:26,350 S2: reply saying, hey, if we have the same ideology, um, 71 00:04:26,470 --> 00:04:29,670 S2: stick by it, don't commit fraud, don't skirt your way, 72 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:33,190 S2: don't cheat the system, stick by your decision. So it 73 00:04:33,190 --> 00:04:37,469 S2: is interesting to note that it's quite controversial even amongst 74 00:04:37,470 --> 00:04:40,070 S2: the anti-vax community in these Facebook groups. 75 00:04:40,390 --> 00:04:42,990 S1: Hmm, that is interesting. And we will get into the 76 00:04:42,990 --> 00:04:46,710 S1: ethics of the anti-vaxxer movement in a bit. And it 77 00:04:46,710 --> 00:04:49,790 S1: is a movement that's kind of evolved over the decades. 78 00:04:49,790 --> 00:04:53,270 S1: But just as a reminder, what are the public health 79 00:04:53,270 --> 00:04:56,229 S1: risks of not vaccinating children. 80 00:04:56,430 --> 00:04:58,909 S2: The risk really is that your child can get seriously 81 00:04:58,910 --> 00:05:02,470 S2: infected or can infect others. The risk is also that 82 00:05:02,470 --> 00:05:07,630 S2: it can lower herd immunity, and that has serious consequences 83 00:05:07,630 --> 00:05:10,550 S2: of leaving others at risk of serious illness and can 84 00:05:10,550 --> 00:05:12,070 S2: potentially lead to death. 85 00:05:12,470 --> 00:05:15,470 S1: And Kayla, you've been speaking with a woman called Katherine 86 00:05:15,470 --> 00:05:19,630 S1: who lost her son under tragic circumstances. Can you tell 87 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:20,430 S1: us her story? 88 00:05:20,670 --> 00:05:26,030 S2: So in early 2015, Katherine Hughes, who's from Perth, she 89 00:05:26,070 --> 00:05:29,750 S2: had given birth to her second baby, a baby boy 90 00:05:29,950 --> 00:05:34,789 S2: named Riley, who was, as she described, a really peaceful 91 00:05:34,790 --> 00:05:37,630 S2: boy who didn't cry much. She said he was such 92 00:05:37,630 --> 00:05:40,070 S2: a sweet little thing with blonde hair, blue eyes and 93 00:05:40,070 --> 00:05:44,510 S2: beautiful soft skin. But when he was about three weeks old, 94 00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:48,870 S2: he started to develop what Katherine thought were mild cold symptoms, 95 00:05:48,870 --> 00:05:53,160 S2: so he was sniffling. She called a doctor to a 96 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:58,160 S2: home who said that her boy looked perfectly fine. But really, 97 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:04,280 S2: the next day, when he stopped feeding, she just instinctually 98 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:09,600 S2: knew that something was wrong, that her boy was not fine. 99 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:15,279 S2: He stopped crying for food and he kept falling asleep 100 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,720 S2: while feeding. And so they took Riley to the hospital. 101 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,320 S2: By his third day in hospital, doctors suspected Riley had 102 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,279 S2: whooping cough just by listening to his cough. The next day, 103 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,760 S2: he had pneumonia. And on his fifth day, he was 104 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,120 S2: on life support. At that point, his little body was 105 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,279 S2: just completely overwhelmed by whooping cough. I'll note 1 in 106 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:47,640 S2: 4 infants with whooping cough will develop pneumonia. And then 107 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,880 S2: he passed away when he was only 32 days old. 108 00:06:52,089 --> 00:06:55,050 S2: Catherine says her son is likely to be alive today 109 00:06:55,050 --> 00:06:58,289 S2: if everyone in her community had been fully vaccinated against 110 00:06:58,330 --> 00:07:03,850 S2: whooping cough. Catherine took to social media to start a 111 00:07:03,850 --> 00:07:07,770 S2: petition so that pregnant women can have access to the 112 00:07:07,810 --> 00:07:11,130 S2: whooping cough vaccine, and that led her to establish that 113 00:07:11,130 --> 00:07:16,570 S2: Immunisation Foundation of Australia, which actually helped lobby every state 114 00:07:16,570 --> 00:07:20,970 S2: in Australia to allow pregnant women to have the whooping 115 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:25,890 S2: cough vaccine. And she's been an immense vaccine advocate ever since. 116 00:07:25,890 --> 00:07:29,370 S2: But yeah, she obviously still carries that grief. And she 117 00:07:29,370 --> 00:07:35,130 S2: has two children now and a little dog, Augustus. But 118 00:07:35,130 --> 00:07:39,090 S2: that's a consequence, you know, in probably the most extreme manner, 119 00:07:39,850 --> 00:07:43,850 S2: death is the consequence. And it's just it's just a 120 00:07:43,850 --> 00:07:45,210 S2: really heartbreaking case. 121 00:07:49,010 --> 00:07:49,890 S1: After the break. 122 00:07:50,370 --> 00:07:53,050 S2: In New South Wales health authorities have issued a warning 123 00:07:53,050 --> 00:07:58,610 S2: about the increase of measles vaccine preventable airborne disease, which 124 00:07:58,930 --> 00:08:01,810 S2: was at its peak in the early 1990s. I think 125 00:08:01,810 --> 00:08:05,530 S2: one year Australia saw hundreds of deaths of measles and 126 00:08:05,530 --> 00:08:07,970 S2: that wasn't really that long ago. That was three decades 127 00:08:07,970 --> 00:08:09,250 S2: ago that we're talking about. 128 00:08:10,090 --> 00:08:16,770 S1: We'll be right back. Definitely heartbreaking. And that was back 129 00:08:16,770 --> 00:08:21,770 S1: in 2015. But we're talking today about a rise that 130 00:08:21,770 --> 00:08:27,370 S1: health authorities are observing in unvaccinated children. Now in 2026 131 00:08:27,810 --> 00:08:30,090 S1: what do you think is fuelling that increase? 132 00:08:31,050 --> 00:08:36,570 S2: So the experts I've spoken to have pointed to the pandemic, 133 00:08:36,570 --> 00:08:41,610 S2: where vaccine mandates sort of began to push people in 134 00:08:41,610 --> 00:08:45,610 S2: the other direction in 2019. Public health experts also warned 135 00:08:45,610 --> 00:08:49,180 S2: that vaccine mandates can backfire and induce parents to seek 136 00:08:49,179 --> 00:08:54,380 S2: loopholes and fuel negative attitudes towards vaccinations. So that hesitancy 137 00:08:54,380 --> 00:09:01,300 S2: that was sort of sparked during the Covid pandemic has 138 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:07,700 S2: really stalled national vaccine uptake in Australia. Below national target. 139 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:11,540 S2: And this is also all in a global climate where 140 00:09:11,580 --> 00:09:17,500 S2: rising anti-vaccine sentiment is partially fuelled by figures like US 141 00:09:17,540 --> 00:09:22,939 S2: Health Secretary Robert F Kennedy Jr and policies that the 142 00:09:22,940 --> 00:09:29,380 S2: CDC is implementing in the US about vaccinating children, which 143 00:09:29,620 --> 00:09:31,740 S2: in the US is, well, a lot of doctors are 144 00:09:31,740 --> 00:09:36,579 S2: not aligned with. Even if we take it more locally 145 00:09:36,580 --> 00:09:39,260 S2: in New South Wales, health authorities have issued a warning 146 00:09:39,260 --> 00:09:44,900 S2: about the increase of measles vaccine preventable airborne disease, which 147 00:09:45,179 --> 00:09:48,150 S2: was at its peak in the early 1990s. I think 148 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:51,830 S2: one year Australia saw hundreds of deaths of measles, and 149 00:09:51,830 --> 00:09:54,270 S2: that wasn't really that long ago. That was three decades 150 00:09:54,270 --> 00:09:57,550 S2: ago that we're talking about. So since December, New South 151 00:09:57,550 --> 00:10:01,270 S2: Wales has seen 11 cases. And last year across Australia, 152 00:10:01,270 --> 00:10:05,550 S2: there were 168 cases, according to the ABC. That's nearly 153 00:10:05,550 --> 00:10:11,030 S2: a three fold rise from 57 cases in 2024. So measles, 154 00:10:11,030 --> 00:10:15,750 S2: whooping cough, mumps, rubella these are all conditions that have 155 00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:20,110 S2: largely been made less common because of vaccination. And experts 156 00:10:20,110 --> 00:10:22,710 S2: are quite concerned that these sort of quote unquote childhood 157 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:27,110 S2: diseases are returning. So along with our vaccination rates, stalling 158 00:10:27,110 --> 00:10:33,390 S2: behind national targets is sort of a movement of not 159 00:10:33,390 --> 00:10:37,030 S2: trusting what doctors are saying. There is a lot of 160 00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:43,790 S2: misinformation that, you know, even experts have noted is extremely worrying. 161 00:10:45,150 --> 00:10:51,949 S2: And people see, especially in these Facebook groups, vaccinating children 162 00:10:51,950 --> 00:10:56,190 S2: as poison. They use that word a lot. They think 163 00:10:56,190 --> 00:11:00,069 S2: that it's poisoning children. They also believe that it fundamentally 164 00:11:00,070 --> 00:11:06,390 S2: does lead to disabilities and disorders in whatever capacity that is, 165 00:11:06,510 --> 00:11:10,430 S2: autism being the one that's frequently brought up, I don't 166 00:11:10,429 --> 00:11:14,950 S2: think people are acting in the traditional motives that I 167 00:11:14,950 --> 00:11:18,590 S2: think we can, you know, believe. I think that they 168 00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:21,110 S2: they do love their children, and I think that they 169 00:11:21,150 --> 00:11:24,189 S2: sincerely believe that they are doing the best for their children. 170 00:11:24,230 --> 00:11:29,710 S2: Herd immunity relies on a portion of the community to 171 00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:36,189 S2: be immunized against a disease. And fundamentally, what vaccinating your 172 00:11:36,190 --> 00:11:42,230 S2: child means is that you are participating in protecting everybody, 173 00:11:42,270 --> 00:11:46,640 S2: not just your child, but people who cannot be vaccinated, 174 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:52,200 S2: who are undergoing chemotherapy or are immunocompromised. It's a commitment 175 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,400 S2: to not allowing hundreds of deaths of measles each year. 176 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,559 S2: It's a commitment to saying we would prefer to have 177 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:05,240 S2: very low cases coming from overseas. And being forced into 178 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:11,560 S2: a medical decision through vaccine mandates is a tough reality, 179 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:17,520 S2: but I think most Australians understand it is for the 180 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,800 S2: greater good. It's not a decision made by governments, but 181 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,600 S2: a decision that is thoroughly backed by science. 182 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,640 S1: And just going back to the doctors who are falsifying 183 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,000 S1: the records, what's the incentive for them? Do they share 184 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,160 S1: some of these beliefs or is it financial? Can you 185 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,000 S1: tell me more about the reasoning you think is behind 186 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:38,800 S1: some of these doctors doing this? 187 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,199 S2: Yeah, I mean, really the only motivation, I guess, as 188 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,809 S2: a doctor to do these services is if you fundamentally 189 00:12:45,809 --> 00:12:49,650 S2: do not believe that vaccines should be mandated. I can't 190 00:12:49,650 --> 00:12:54,210 S2: exactly speculate per case attitude that each doctor or nurse has, 191 00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:57,210 S2: but there has been two notable cases in the past 192 00:12:57,210 --> 00:13:02,290 S2: few years of anti-vax doctors and nurses. So in Victoria, 193 00:13:02,770 --> 00:13:07,010 S2: a doctor called Denis Borrows had his registration suspended after 194 00:13:07,010 --> 00:13:11,570 S2: he was issuing fake Covid 19 vaccine exemptions, allowing children 195 00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:15,050 S2: to enroll in early childhood education, as well as to 196 00:13:15,090 --> 00:13:19,250 S2: allow families to access their full government payments. In 2021 197 00:13:19,250 --> 00:13:20,850 S2: as well. So there was a Perth nurse who was 198 00:13:20,850 --> 00:13:24,690 S2: charged with fraudulently recording a vaccine after a doctor allegedly 199 00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:27,490 S2: witnessed her insert a needle into a 15 year old's arm, 200 00:13:27,490 --> 00:13:30,930 S2: but did not dispense the needle. A police prosecutor told 201 00:13:30,929 --> 00:13:34,690 S2: the court that suspicions were raised when patients kept specifically 202 00:13:34,690 --> 00:13:38,250 S2: asking for her, and she would close the door to 203 00:13:38,290 --> 00:13:41,650 S2: her room, citing privacy reasons in what was quite clearly 204 00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:46,250 S2: an anti-vaccination stance. That case was dropped a month later 205 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:51,530 S2: because W8 police cited a lack of health information, which 206 00:13:51,530 --> 00:13:54,450 S2: hindered their ability to prosecute her. And that's kind of 207 00:13:54,490 --> 00:13:59,849 S2: another aspect to this story that health experts are raising, 208 00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:04,650 S2: which is that it's an untraceable problem. It's really difficult 209 00:14:04,850 --> 00:14:10,170 S2: to prosecute or to know who and where this is happening. 210 00:14:11,090 --> 00:14:15,809 S2: It's also a problem with no size. We don't know 211 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:19,970 S2: how many people are walking around who on air or 212 00:14:19,970 --> 00:14:24,290 S2: on those Medicare records are vaccinated, but in reality are not. 213 00:14:24,890 --> 00:14:29,370 S2: And that's I think the really worrying part is that 214 00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:32,090 S2: even if it's a really small portion, very tiny portion 215 00:14:32,090 --> 00:14:37,970 S2: of Australians who are falsely vaccinated, it's still actually compromising 216 00:14:37,970 --> 00:14:39,410 S2: our national data. 217 00:14:39,970 --> 00:14:43,460 S1: Okay. so we've seen a suspension, but besides that, it 218 00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:47,340 S1: seems as you say that doctors are escaping accountability. What 219 00:14:47,340 --> 00:14:48,820 S1: do you think needs to change? 220 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:54,100 S2: Yeah. So I asked the Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency 221 00:14:54,460 --> 00:14:59,140 S2: how often this occurs and what the consequence is if 222 00:14:59,140 --> 00:15:05,260 S2: this occurs. And they said that if any medical practitioner 223 00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:10,060 S2: is found acting fraudulently, they risk being suspended or deregistered. 224 00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:14,740 S2: And once a medical practitioner is suspended, that can lead 225 00:15:14,740 --> 00:15:22,020 S2: to state based investigations, which can be also criminal falsification 226 00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:24,940 S2: of documents. You don't really have to be a legal 227 00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:29,260 S2: expert to to know that that is probably forgery. And 228 00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:32,220 S2: to that extent as well, you could see how a 229 00:15:32,220 --> 00:15:36,100 S2: parent would be involved in that process and themselves potentially 230 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:40,270 S2: being liable for forgery as well. So there are criminal 231 00:15:40,270 --> 00:15:45,230 S2: consequences to this. But in the case of the Perth nurse, 232 00:15:45,270 --> 00:15:48,630 S2: we can see that it's really hard to prove. Abra said. 233 00:15:48,630 --> 00:15:51,430 S2: It was really concerned by this behaviour. Behaviour that fails 234 00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:55,030 S2: to put the health and wellbeing of patients first. Allegations 235 00:15:55,030 --> 00:16:00,590 S2: of fraud, they said in an immunization administration, are thankfully rare. 236 00:16:00,710 --> 00:16:04,870 S2: So they said if anyone has any information to contact them. 237 00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:07,950 S2: I'll also note that I reached out to the Pharmaceutical 238 00:16:07,950 --> 00:16:11,590 S2: Society of Australia, and they said they were aware that 239 00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:15,790 S2: some of their health professionals were offered and rejected bribes 240 00:16:15,790 --> 00:16:20,710 S2: during the Covid 19 pandemic to falsify vaccination records. And 241 00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:23,110 S2: they did note that this practice is not something our 242 00:16:23,110 --> 00:16:25,790 S2: members have raised with us in recent years. So it's 243 00:16:25,790 --> 00:16:29,270 S2: not so much as common potentially as during the Covid 244 00:16:29,270 --> 00:16:32,110 S2: 19 pandemic. But as I said, it's so hard to 245 00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:36,470 S2: know when and how often this is occurring that I'm 246 00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:39,030 S2: just sort of relying on these Facebook groups of people 247 00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:43,510 S2: really seeking to cheat the system, seeking ways to not 248 00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:50,630 S2: vaccinate their child and gain the benefits that vaccinating a 249 00:16:50,630 --> 00:16:53,190 S2: child allows everybody else. 250 00:16:59,230 --> 00:17:01,310 S1: Well, thank you so much for your time today, Kayla. 251 00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:02,510 S2: Thanks, Julia. 252 00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:20,190 S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers. Our executive producer 253 00:17:20,190 --> 00:17:23,750 S1: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa 254 00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:27,389 S1: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow 255 00:17:27,390 --> 00:17:29,910 S1: the Morning Edition and leave a review for us on 256 00:17:29,910 --> 00:17:32,430 S1: Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.