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S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a

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S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Mel Schembri and

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S1: Meg Watson. Meg, this is very exciting. Haven't spoken to

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S1: you on this podcast for like 12 months. You're filling

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S1: in for Thomas, who's on another mysterious trip. Have you

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S1: been what's been happening.

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S2: Are a lot's been happening in my life? I've, uh,

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S2: birthed two humans simultaneously.

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S1: I'm acting surprised, but I did. I did know that.

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S2: No, we actually don't speak outside of work. Uh, it's

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S2: in my contract. Um, yeah. I had two beautiful babies, uh,

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S2: and I. My life exploded, and I'm now in the

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S2: process of putting it back together, like one of those

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S2: Japanese vases that gets melded with gold. Yeah.

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S1: I would describe your life currently as being stuck together

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S1: with gold. Like it's hanging on, but it looks shiny

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S1: and nice.

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S2: Great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's very cute. It's very cute

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S2: from the outside. You don't get all the the stuff

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S2: in the inside where you're covered in poo and spew

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S2: and have to take three showers a day.

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S1: Um, it's very nice to have you back. Both on

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S1: the show, but also just as a colleague, as one

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S1: of our wonderful reporters. You're back. We missed you. So

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S1: thank you.

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S2: I also, it feels like I'm a fan of this

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S2: podcast now. I mean, I've been on it before quite

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S2: a lot, but the past 12 months, my main experience

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S2: was just like walking around the neighborhood with my double pram,

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S2: trying to get my babies to sleep. Listening to you

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S2: guys like it was actually a real lifesaver. It makes

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S2: you feel very sane when all you've seen all day

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S2: is The Wiggles and Sesame Street and haven't spoken to

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S2: an adult, did you?

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S1: Um, that's very nice. Did you like, watch much? I

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S1: know that there's this maybe a false assumption that, you know,

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S1: newborn parents have all this, like, time on their hands.

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S1: I understand that that is not really the case. Particularly

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S1: when you have two kids. Twins? Um, but did you, like,

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S1: were you able to tap into culture much on your

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S1: year off?

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S2: In the early days, it was pretty much just what

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S2: watching Selling Sunset on the couch, um, in like, this

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S2: fugue state, because I was sleeping two hours a night

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S2: and couldn't comprehend anything else. Um, but then over the months,

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S2: it got a bit better, and I actually ended up

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S2: going to a lot of movies because it was the

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S2: best place to just be by myself. Zone out when

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S2: you're overstimulated and freaked out from having mental breakdowns all

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S2: day with these babies.

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S1: Well, you shared a tip on your Instagram a few

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S1: weeks ago about why going to like mums and bubs

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S1: screenings is so good. Have you been to many of those?

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S2: No, because twins do not generally allow that. The chaos of, um,

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S2: not being able to hold two babies at once, having

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S2: one just causing chaos everywhere, um, can't feed them both

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S2: at the same time when you're in a cinema chair. But, uh,

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S2: one of my babies was sick because I have started daycare,

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S2: and so that is their entire life now. And I

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S2: was able to take the other baby to the fall

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S2: guy for her first cinema experience. Wow. Um, and, you know,

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S2: it was fine. Yeah.

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S1: Not not the most memorable.

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S2: First, but it was cheap, but it was like a

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S2: $12 ticket. And, uh, babies get in free.

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S1: So better than my first cinema experience, which was Jurassic

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S1: Park when I was like two years old, I think,

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S1: or three years old. And it was very scary. That's

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S1: a sick.

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S2: Experience.

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S1: Well, I mean, it's my favorite movie and I'm very happy.

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S1: That was my first, uh, experience. But at the time,

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S1: my main memory is just of me, like screaming, running

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S1: out of my parents lap and running to the like,

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S1: screen and just like, ah, pounding on it. Well, yeah.

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S1: Great to have you back. Thank you. Mel, how you doing?

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S1: You've had a more quiet week, I guess, compared to

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S1: Meg's last 12 months.

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S3: Yeah. I'm no vase put together with gold, all right.

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S3: Certainly don't feel like one. I'm. Well, really glad to

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S3: have you back, Meg. Also, I'm really excited because I

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S3: think we might explode Oz's brain. Because Oz often calls

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S3: me Meg and he calls you Mel, which I was

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S3: really hoping we weren't already.

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S1: I was really hoping we weren't going to get into

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S1: this on this show, because I'm going to nail it.

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S3: I mean, it's an easy mistake to make. We both

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S3: start with M and E, so I see why it happens. But, um, yeah,

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S3: I'm just really hoping it all comes to a head

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S3: in this episode.

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S1: I've said it already. If there was another guy in

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S1: this podcast called Osama, you would confuse me for him

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S1: all the time. And that would be way worse than

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S1: the Meg and Mel accent. A little switcheroo that I

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S1: do sometimes.

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S3: Sure, sure, sure. Is this the first.

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S2: Time it's been two women on the pod? The ratios switched.

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S1: Yeah, I feel outnumbered and terrified.

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S2: I'll start talking about Sydney Sweeney. I'll fill the gap.

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S1: All right, let's get into it. After a little bit

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S1: of a lull in the last couple of months when

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S1: it comes to television, things seem to be warming up

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S1: a bit. This episode, we're going to be talking about

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S1: two new shows that are quite different in terms of

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S1: style and plot, but I think thematically grappling with similar

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S1: ideas around power and the hell is going on in

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S1: America right now. But before we get to those, I

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S1: want to talk about an album that I think the

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S1: three of us agree is one of our favorite releases

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S1: of the year so far. It's Charli Xcx's Brat, which

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S1: was released late last week. I've been hyping this album

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S1: since February, when the first single, Von Dutch, was released.

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S1: I think it was my recommendation that week. Um, the

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S1: second single, 360, came out just last month with a

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S1: star studded film clip. Rachel Sennott, Julia Fox, all the

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S1: IT girls of the moment.

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UU: I went my own way and I made it. I'm

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UU: your favorite reference, baby. Call me debris. You're so inside.

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UU: On tectonic moves. I mean.

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S4: Come check your.

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UU: Defibrillators. No, I can't relate. I'll always be the one on.

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S1: Most of this album is produced by Charli's long term

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S1: collaborator A.G. cook, the founder of PC music, and is

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S1: generally considered one of the pioneers of hyperpop and the

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S1: kind of sound that came to define Charli's first half

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S1: of her career. I guess brat has a lot in

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S1: common with that stuff, particularly her dual 2017 mixtapes Number one,

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S1: Angel and pop two. I actually think this is her

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S1: best album since that era. It also sounds like a

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S1: throwback to that kind of mid 2000 Ministry of Sound

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S1: brash club music vibe. What do you guys think about

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S1: Brat Meg?

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S2: I've been loving it. I've been, uh, playing it for

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S2: my babies, telling them what it was like to be

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S2: alive in 2009. Drinking cheap vodka, smoking cigarettes, wearing black

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S2: tights and denim shorts. Um, yeah. It's been it's been

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S2: so sick. It's so good to listen to. It's like

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S2: this great mix of these club bangers that make you

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S2: nostalgic for this other time, but in a way that

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S2: doesn't feel forced, like it still feels fresh. It feels

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S2: like it's building on that legacy. Um, but also then

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S2: there's these kind of quieter, more introspective songs, and the

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S2: switch between those two is such a nice balance. Like,

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S2: I feel like it's not too much of one or

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S2: the other. Um, but it's just fucking sick to listen to.

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S2: I think that's the best metric for these pop songs.

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S1: That's a really good way of putting it. It's like

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S1: there's these nods to that era that will be very

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S1: reminiscent to millennials like us, but it's not like a

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S1: nostalgia play. It's definitely iterating on that kind of sound.

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S2: And especially because, I mean, she's she's 31, right? And

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S2: she came up in that era, she was like started

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S2: on the Myspace demos and stuff. Like, it's not as

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S2: though it's a 16 year old who's like, just heard

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S2: of indie sleaze and is trying to, like, reincorporate that

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S2: sound like she lived it. She was there. And a

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S2: lot of the album is kind of reflecting on that

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S2: time and who she was as well, and building from there.

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S3: Your kids are going to be so cool. Meg listening

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S3: to Chelsea X already? Um, I went to a writer's

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S3: festival in Belgium, which is on the mid-north coast, over

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S3: the weekend, and it's a very long drive there, and

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S3: I was by myself in the car. It's like you

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S3: drove to Bellingen.

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S1: Wow.

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S3: Yeah, I drove to Burlington and I actually really enjoyed it.

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S3: And brat was a great album. I had my highs

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S3: when I was like, really up, and then I kind

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S3: of could come down with some of those quieter songs.

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S3: I think it's a really great album. Those 42 minutes

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S3: just fly by and it's got this real energy and

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S3: momentum to it. And as Meg said, maybe on paper

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S3: you don't think it will work. These kind of really

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S3: heavy dance beats and then the softer, more vulnerable songs,

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S3: but they all do flow together really well. Von Dutch

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S3: and 360 are highlights for me. Girl. So confusing. Apple B2B,

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S3: I think they're all really great. I find Charli XCX

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S3: two really interesting. You know how she's like totally dumped

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S3: on crash, which was her 2022 album with Atlantic Records.

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S3: She thinks she sold out. She was really distanced herself

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S3: from it, but I think that album is great, and

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S3: I actually think this album is building on a lot

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S3: of what she started doing in crash. Um, I just

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S3: think her whole she's obviously navigating and she talks about

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S3: this in the music, this line between indie artist and

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S3: celebrity pop star. And I think that's quite an interesting

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S3: thing to watch on, both in the music and in

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S3: how she's kind of doing the press as well.

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S1: That's really interesting. I didn't love crash, but I don't

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S1: think it was a disaster like it was her most

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S1: commercially successful album, she said. It's a sort of funny,

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S1: like Post-irony moment that a lot of these artists are

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S1: going through, where she said, I'm doing this album, but

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S1: just so you know, it's my most commercial yet, and

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S1: it's the first time I've worked with the Atlantic Records A&R.

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S1: So before you cancel me for selling out, I'm kind

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S1: of like calling myself out, which is, I guess like

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S1: a good way to deflect criticism, but it feels very

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S1: of the moment as well, where everyone is like preempting

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S1: how they're going to be discussed. And I thought that

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S1: was an okay album. But I think what I like

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S1: about this one is it does feel more reminiscent, like

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S1: particularly number one Angel, that's like my one of my

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S1: all times. Um, I think the other part of why

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S1: this feels so good and a little bit different to

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S1: crash for me, is that it doesn't really sound like

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S1: any other pop album out at the moment. Meaghan Garvey

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S1: wrote the Pitchfork review for this record, brat, and she

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S1: summed up the state of the charts right now in

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S1: a really interesting way. She said it's either warmed over

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S1: disco or weepy Reddit detective pop, and I feel like

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S1: that's like the gamut from Dua Lipa to Billie Eilish

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S1: and Olivia Rodrigo and Taylor Swift, and this is like

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S1: nothing like that. There are some songs that are obviously

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S1: about her life and her emotions and other musicians and

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S1: her feelings about Sophie, her old long time collaborator who

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S1: passed away quite tragically. But largely, it's not like I'm

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S1: revealing myself and I'm going super inwards. It feels really

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S1: different to other pop records right now.

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S2: Yeah, I mean, I suppose, yeah, like you said, there's

223
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S2: so many ideas in the album and they are autobiographical

224
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S2: if you read them that way, but they also aren't necessarily.

225
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S2: It's not like you come to a Charli XCX album,

226
00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:31,050
S2: like can't wait to hear about her latest breakup. Like,

227
00:10:31,050 --> 00:10:34,210
S2: that's not the album you're going to get. Um, but,

228
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S2: I mean, there is a lot in there that she

229
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S2: is playing around with. I mean, even girls. So confusing.

230
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S2: It's pretty widely speculated that that's about Lord. Right? Like,

231
00:10:42,730 --> 00:10:45,160
S2: she's really in dialogue with the idea of pop stardom,

232
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S2: inasmuch as that she's making the music as well.

233
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S1: Yeah. I'm interested like about that one with you guys,

234
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S1: because there's been people saying that that's a song, you know,

235
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S1: it's a song about a contemporary of hers that, you know,

236
00:10:55,390 --> 00:10:58,510
S1: people say that you should collaborate with. But she's like,

237
00:10:58,510 --> 00:11:00,520
S1: we don't really get along, and maybe one day we will.

238
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S1: And I'd love to see you actually, like party. Some

239
00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:05,230
S1: people think it's about Taylor Swift because there is this

240
00:11:05,230 --> 00:11:10,380
S1: very explicit reference to like, poetry. My my immediate reaction

241
00:11:10,380 --> 00:11:12,030
S1: to it is, is like, I don't really want to

242
00:11:12,030 --> 00:11:14,610
S1: do the Reddit detective thing on it. Like it could

243
00:11:14,610 --> 00:11:17,790
S1: be about a particular person. It could be about her

244
00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:21,900
S1: positioning herself against an entire generation of artists. But I

245
00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:26,070
S1: like that. Unlike, say, the most recent Taylorswift record. If

246
00:11:26,070 --> 00:11:27,720
S1: you don't know who it's about, if you don't know

247
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,420
S1: those details, it's still just works. It's a really fun song.

248
00:11:30,450 --> 00:11:31,890
S2: Totally. If you don't know any of that, it just

249
00:11:31,890 --> 00:11:34,170
S2: reads as a song of like what it's like to

250
00:11:34,170 --> 00:11:38,580
S2: be friends with girls when you're like 13 through 30, like, right, right, right.

251
00:11:38,580 --> 00:11:41,280
S2: These insecure relationships where there's this power imbalance, you don't

252
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:42,780
S2: know where you sit and you're trying to be cool,

253
00:11:42,780 --> 00:11:44,490
S2: but you don't know if you're really friends. Like, it

254
00:11:44,490 --> 00:11:46,020
S2: just works on that level as well.

255
00:11:46,020 --> 00:11:48,810
S3: Yeah, in some ways, knowing who it's Autobiographically alleged to

256
00:11:48,809 --> 00:11:52,140
S3: be about it actually narrows down the potential meaning of

257
00:11:52,140 --> 00:11:54,989
S3: it for people. I do find it interesting. She does

258
00:11:54,990 --> 00:11:58,980
S3: talk a lot about relationships with women in in the album,

259
00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:01,710
S3: and I do, speaking about the other big pop releases.

260
00:12:01,710 --> 00:12:05,460
S3: That does seem to be a consistent theme in Billie Eilish, Rodrigo,

261
00:12:05,460 --> 00:12:09,120
S3: Taylor Swift. There is a lot of introspection about relationships

262
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,699
S3: between women, and there was also there's also been a

263
00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:14,190
S3: lot of talk in this album about motherhood as well,

264
00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:16,650
S3: so I feel like they're kind of more interesting themes than,

265
00:12:16,650 --> 00:12:19,500
S3: you know, celebrities just talking about the status of their

266
00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:23,309
S3: fame and sometimes hating the consequences of fame. So even

267
00:12:23,309 --> 00:12:26,220
S3: though her lyrics, I feel have this lightness to them,

268
00:12:26,220 --> 00:12:29,069
S3: there's also a bit more than just kind of fun

269
00:12:29,070 --> 00:12:30,960
S3: words going on and fun beats.

270
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S1: Yeah, it feels like the kinds of conversations a lot

271
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S1: of very media literate, very smart women in their early

272
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S1: 30s I know are talking about. And I think I

273
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S1: go as far as saying, like the references to the

274
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:48,329
S1: Red scare podcast and Julia Fox and Rachel Sennott. And again,

275
00:12:48,330 --> 00:12:53,160
S1: it's like this ironic meme culture, and it's a little

276
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,980
S1: bit of a reaction, a bit of an edgelord reaction

277
00:12:55,980 --> 00:12:59,640
S1: against wokeness that defined kind of like the 20s of

278
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,030
S1: a lot of these people, and they're sort of pushing

279
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:04,980
S1: back on that. It's a bit cringe. It's lame, it's

280
00:13:04,980 --> 00:13:07,260
S1: a bit dumb, but at the same time, you're faced

281
00:13:07,260 --> 00:13:10,110
S1: with the actual material reality of being a woman at

282
00:13:10,110 --> 00:13:13,080
S1: a certain phase in your career, in life where you're

283
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,170
S1: feeling loss, you're trying to make relationships work. A lot

284
00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:19,800
S1: of people around you are having kids and you're quite

285
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,530
S1: not there yet. It's it's it's so funny because it

286
00:13:22,530 --> 00:13:25,380
S1: is just like this dumb fun record on so many levels.

287
00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:28,410
S1: And then, wow, this actually, thematically feels so much more

288
00:13:28,410 --> 00:13:32,309
S1: interesting than these dense albums from someone like Taylor Swift,

289
00:13:32,309 --> 00:13:34,680
S1: which is supposed to be about that stuff, but don't

290
00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,390
S1: really feel as interesting to me.

291
00:13:36,390 --> 00:13:39,030
S3: I think you also could not have described being a

292
00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:43,980
S3: woman in her 30s better than you just did. Um, no.

293
00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:45,270
S1: Did I fuck it up? Did I fuck it up?

294
00:13:45,270 --> 00:13:50,880
S3: No, you crushed it. Um, the gals on the pod. Thank. You. Know, I, um,

295
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,790
S3: I completely agree. And also, there's, like, that Mean Girls

296
00:13:53,790 --> 00:13:55,410
S3: song where she talks about it.

297
00:13:55,410 --> 00:13:59,070
S4: Girls she likes. Some people say it. Think you already

298
00:13:59,070 --> 00:14:02,160
S4: know it, but you don't. This one's for all my mean.

299
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,020
UU: This one's for all my bad guys. Cause this one's

300
00:14:08,020 --> 00:14:12,000
UU: for all my break up boyfriends. Hard. For all my

301
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,220
UU: Devastator rockers.

302
00:14:14,220 --> 00:14:17,880
S3: This is both a tribute to the it girl as

303
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,180
S3: well as a mockery of it, so there is kind

304
00:14:21,180 --> 00:14:25,110
S3: of a really fun playing between expectations and the reality

305
00:14:25,110 --> 00:14:26,400
S3: as well in these songs.

306
00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:29,550
S2: And even this kind of self-referential way that, you know,

307
00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:32,280
S2: she is an it girl for a certain demographic. And

308
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,740
S2: like even in some of these songs, she says, you know,

309
00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:37,200
S2: I'm famous, but not that famous. I'm still like half

310
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,200
S2: in the normal world. It's like she's poking fun at

311
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,020
S2: the idea of herself and the online persona that she creates,

312
00:14:43,020 --> 00:14:45,720
S2: while also engaging with it. Like this whole thing that she's,

313
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,660
S2: she's been making music since she was like 16, this

314
00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:50,910
S2: incredible legacy that she's drawn and like the image of

315
00:14:50,910 --> 00:14:51,750
S2: her today.

316
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,740
S1: There is like one weird kind of comp with Taylor Swift.

317
00:14:55,740 --> 00:15:00,180
S1: So Charli does reference her boyfriend explicitly a couple of times.

318
00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:05,370
S1: George Daniel, who is in the band 1975 and obviously,

319
00:15:05,370 --> 00:15:08,850
S1: like Taylor's last record, mentions Matty Healy, who's the lead

320
00:15:08,850 --> 00:15:12,060
S1: singer of 1975. It is kind of funny that, like,

321
00:15:12,060 --> 00:15:14,850
S1: there are these two big pop records that are both,

322
00:15:14,850 --> 00:15:19,890
S1: like existing adjacent to the 1975 universe. Is this now

323
00:15:19,890 --> 00:15:22,020
S1: something I'm going to get canceled for? For immediately making

324
00:15:22,020 --> 00:15:24,840
S1: this about a man and like a male rock band?

325
00:15:26,670 --> 00:15:28,470
S5: Yes. The answer is yes.

326
00:15:29,370 --> 00:15:32,550
S3: She actually does. I was just checking because she does reference.

327
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:34,500
S1: She says, George, she's she has that song where she's

328
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:36,630
S1: like listing, I want to go to the club with George. Yeah.

329
00:15:36,630 --> 00:15:38,550
S3: Sympathy is a knife where she's like, I don't want

330
00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:42,030
S3: to see her backstage at my boyfriend's show. Yeah, yeah. Um, anyway, sorry,

331
00:15:42,030 --> 00:15:44,100
S3: let me pick up about whether you're going to get canceled.

332
00:15:44,850 --> 00:15:45,360
S5: No, I just thought.

333
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,220
S1: It was like. It's just a funny little bit of trivia.

334
00:15:47,220 --> 00:15:48,450
S1: I think that there is like.

335
00:15:48,450 --> 00:15:49,320
S3: No, it is 19.

336
00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:51,810
S1: Interesting connection, connective tissue here.

337
00:15:51,810 --> 00:15:53,670
S2: But we're not going to do the Reddit detective thing.

338
00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:54,240
S5: No.

339
00:15:55,740 --> 00:16:01,050
S3: Yeah. 1975 really flowing through a lot of, uh, these albums.

340
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,970
S1: Um, Meg, to pick up on a point you mentioned earlier, she,

341
00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:07,800
S1: she talks about, you know, I'm famous, but I'm not

342
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,479
S1: that famous. It's a funny thing with Charli where I

343
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,820
S1: think people in music land have respected her work for

344
00:16:11,820 --> 00:16:13,830
S1: a long time, but she's not been like someone who

345
00:16:13,830 --> 00:16:17,190
S1: sells out stadiums. Crashed that record we discussed. That was

346
00:16:17,190 --> 00:16:21,690
S1: her first UK number one, and it was engineered basically

347
00:16:21,690 --> 00:16:24,000
S1: to be a number one. I don't know if this

348
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,850
S1: is engineered to tap into a current pop sound to

349
00:16:26,850 --> 00:16:29,220
S1: be that popular. She's doing this tour right now with

350
00:16:29,220 --> 00:16:32,430
S1: Troye Sivan. It's selling pretty well, but it's not like

351
00:16:32,430 --> 00:16:36,060
S1: a stadium tour either. Do you think she's found that

352
00:16:36,060 --> 00:16:40,440
S1: combination of a really fun sound and the zeitgeist to

353
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,510
S1: maybe blast this kind of thing into the stratosphere, or

354
00:16:42,510 --> 00:16:45,450
S1: will this remain more in the kind of like Charli

355
00:16:45,450 --> 00:16:47,700
S1: Heads and electronic music heads will get it, but it

356
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:48,840
S1: might not cross over?

357
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,150
S2: Yeah, I don't think it will cross over in that

358
00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:54,030
S2: same way. I mean, it's she's proven so many times

359
00:16:54,030 --> 00:16:56,910
S2: that she can do it even with her other ventures,

360
00:16:56,910 --> 00:16:59,610
S2: you know? Right. She wrote, I love it, like with

361
00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:02,310
S2: Icona Pop and Fancy with Iggy Azalea. It's like, this

362
00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:04,920
S2: is someone who can make huge hits that are playing

363
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,640
S2: in H&M and Zara, but it's also she's she showed

364
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,380
S2: again and again that that's not what she wants to do.

365
00:17:10,410 --> 00:17:12,300
S2: She wants to make these more complex objects and I

366
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:14,730
S2: think this album will exist that way. It's going to

367
00:17:14,730 --> 00:17:18,090
S2: be something that critics love, that fans talk about all

368
00:17:18,090 --> 00:17:20,340
S2: the time. And to the people who are in the room,

369
00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:21,570
S2: it will matter a lot. But I don't think that's

370
00:17:21,570 --> 00:17:23,100
S2: going to be a sell out stadium. Mm.

371
00:17:23,130 --> 00:17:25,080
S1: It's a good way of putting it. What do you think, Mel.

372
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,120
S3: Yeah I reckon some of the singles might cut through

373
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,660
S3: but I agree I don't think it's the most accessible album,

374
00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:34,050
S3: particularly given what I think the regular kind of mainstream

375
00:17:34,050 --> 00:17:36,900
S3: listener of music has been trained to listen to lately.

376
00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:39,480
S3: When it comes to pop, that very laid back pop

377
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,530
S3: sound that we've discussed before, the Taylor Swift effect on pop,

378
00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:46,770
S3: and this is kind of potentially too radical, I think,

379
00:17:46,770 --> 00:17:49,200
S3: to cut through on a huge level compared to some

380
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,250
S3: of those other singers.

381
00:17:50,250 --> 00:17:54,360
S1: Yeah, I hope it does well enough that she sells

382
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,850
S1: out her tour. It was looking not great. I think

383
00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:59,700
S1: about 80% of tickets had sold out before the album

384
00:17:59,910 --> 00:18:03,090
S1: was released, which is not bad, but you consider how

385
00:18:03,090 --> 00:18:05,550
S1: quickly big pop concerts are selling out. And there is

386
00:18:05,550 --> 00:18:09,210
S1: this almost this, you know, dichotomy where the big ones

387
00:18:09,210 --> 00:18:10,950
S1: sell and then no one has money left to go

388
00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:13,140
S1: to kind of the more mid-tier shows. But it looks

389
00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:15,210
S1: like from a bit of research I was doing since

390
00:18:15,210 --> 00:18:18,000
S1: the album dropped, the ticket sales have increased a bit.

391
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,379
S1: People are like, oh shit, this is going to be

392
00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:22,140
S1: a really fun vibe in like an arena or something.

393
00:18:22,140 --> 00:18:23,669
S3: Is that what is she playing? Arenas, I.

394
00:18:23,670 --> 00:18:24,330
S5: Was interested.

395
00:18:24,330 --> 00:18:27,480
S1: Yeah, arenas. I don't think there's Australian dates locked in yet,

396
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,550
S1: but if her and Troy come over here, I feel

397
00:18:29,550 --> 00:18:30,630
S1: like it will do quite well.

398
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:32,280
S3: That would be so fun. The two of them together

399
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:32,940
S3: as well.

400
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,430
S1: Um, I say I have some friends who saw Troy's

401
00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:38,520
S1: set at Primavera and just said it was awesome. So

402
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,040
S1: hopefully we get that here. Um, maybe just to round

403
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,770
S1: out that conversation, Mel, you mentioned some of your favorite tracks,

404
00:18:43,770 --> 00:18:46,500
S1: but any other songs you wanted to to highlight?

405
00:18:47,150 --> 00:18:49,820
S3: Yeah, I reckon I'd put Mean Girls up there as well.

406
00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:51,830
S3: I think that's a really fun song. The beat of

407
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:54,440
S3: it is good. It kind of is a throwback to

408
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,080
S3: the era in which we grew up in, where the

409
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,530
S3: It girls were such a a vibe, the kind of waify,

410
00:19:00,530 --> 00:19:04,730
S3: cigarette smoking, messy hot girl thing. So I think her

411
00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:07,190
S3: tone in that is really fun because it's not just

412
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:11,119
S3: about kind of idolizing the girl, it's about taking it

413
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,070
S3: down and making fun of it at the same time.

414
00:19:13,070 --> 00:19:15,560
S1: Would you identify as one of those eight girls waify

415
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:16,640
S1: cigarette smoking?

416
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,700
S3: Yeah, sure. Particularly when I'm at the book festivals. Right.

417
00:19:20,540 --> 00:19:26,270
S1: The Belgian, uh, Festival of Belgian. Um, how about you, Meg?

418
00:19:26,270 --> 00:19:29,030
S1: Not necessarily how you identify at book festivals, but any

419
00:19:29,030 --> 00:19:30,200
S1: any standout tracks?

420
00:19:30,770 --> 00:19:32,810
S2: Uh, I think Von Dutch is still the track I'm

421
00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:35,959
S2: listening to the most. But I also really do like

422
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,270
S2: that motherhood track. I think about it all the time

423
00:19:38,270 --> 00:19:41,720
S2: is like a really tender, almost close to the album

424
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,780
S2: that I think is really honest about the way that

425
00:19:44,780 --> 00:19:47,090
S2: a lot of people I know think about motherhood and

426
00:19:47,090 --> 00:19:50,420
S2: also like, presents it in not this cloying, idealistic way.

427
00:19:50,420 --> 00:19:52,580
S2: It's like, that looks so good. But also, would my

428
00:19:52,580 --> 00:19:55,790
S2: life be fucked? Maybe. Maybe both things are true. Um,

429
00:19:55,790 --> 00:19:58,430
S2: I also particularly like the hard switch between that, which

430
00:19:58,430 --> 00:20:00,440
S2: is like, maybe I'll have a baby, maybe it'll be great.

431
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,180
S2: And three, six, five, which is like, let's do coke

432
00:20:02,180 --> 00:20:02,869
S2: in the bathroom.

433
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:03,890
S5: Yeah, it's so good.

434
00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:06,500
S1: There's a lot of like, very like juxtaposing on the

435
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:08,869
S1: tracklist on this where you're like, wow, I'm thinking now

436
00:20:08,869 --> 00:20:10,640
S1: it's like, let's just get fucked up and start rolling.

437
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,690
S5: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

438
00:20:11,690 --> 00:20:16,610
S1: My favorite is probably Everything Is Romantic, which, like I've decided,

439
00:20:16,609 --> 00:20:20,840
S1: is the Elena Ferrante like Charlie song, because I think

440
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,420
S1: she wrote it in Naples. And there's all these references

441
00:20:23,420 --> 00:20:26,629
S1: to looking at Capri and, like, looking at Vesuvius. I

442
00:20:26,630 --> 00:20:29,900
S1: feel like I'm in the Neapolitan books. Um, that one

443
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:32,510
S1: was for you, Mel. Just wanted to squeeze in that

444
00:20:32,510 --> 00:20:33,020
S1: book reference.

445
00:20:33,020 --> 00:20:33,530
S5: I appreciate.

446
00:20:33,530 --> 00:20:35,060
S1: It. Thank you. Um, but I love it. And I

447
00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:37,850
S1: love the way that that, uh, kind of refrain just

448
00:20:37,850 --> 00:20:39,590
S1: builds and builds and builds towards the end. You can

449
00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:43,070
S1: see that being reworked by DJs in the club and

450
00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:44,420
S1: being super, super fun.

451
00:20:44,420 --> 00:20:46,370
S3: In a place that can make you change. Oh, that's

452
00:20:46,369 --> 00:20:47,720
S3: very sentimental as.

453
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,700
S1: Oh, I thought you guys all brought a bit of

454
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:53,359
S1: sentimentality and, you know, introspection to that conversation. Thank you.

455
00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:55,040
S5: Thank you.

456
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,110
S2: Wow. Everything's so kind to that. Thomas.

457
00:20:58,460 --> 00:20:58,850
S5: Yeah.

458
00:20:59,420 --> 00:21:00,710
S3: What a nice spot.

459
00:21:02,210 --> 00:21:06,830
S1: Um, all right, let's pivot to TV. It feels like

460
00:21:06,980 --> 00:21:11,840
S1: I'm wearing my Toronto Raptors, uh, jumper in preparation for

461
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,720
S1: this conversation, because it feels like we're in a bit

462
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,869
S1: of a golden era for prestige shows based on very

463
00:21:17,869 --> 00:21:22,760
S1: iconic moments in basketball, NBA history. Uh, Mel, I know

464
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,010
S1: you are a bit of a basketball head. Meg, I

465
00:21:25,010 --> 00:21:27,350
S1: have no idea what your relationship is to basketball or

466
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:28,100
S1: the NBA.

467
00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:32,150
S2: Uh, I have watched The Last Dance. Okay, uh, that's

468
00:21:32,150 --> 00:21:32,660
S2: about it.

469
00:21:32,660 --> 00:21:33,740
S1: I mean, that's a great show.

470
00:21:33,740 --> 00:21:35,629
S5: Yeah, it's very good. So you're familiar enough with.

471
00:21:35,630 --> 00:21:37,790
S1: The sport and there's characters involved?

472
00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:39,920
S2: Yeah, I'm familiar with, you know, everyone in the Space

473
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:40,850
S2: Jam universe.

474
00:21:43,790 --> 00:21:47,630
S1: Um, last year, uh, in terms of these big basketball shows,

475
00:21:47,630 --> 00:21:50,450
S1: we got the second season of Winning Time, which was,

476
00:21:50,450 --> 00:21:53,120
S1: I think, a pretty good HBO series that focused on

477
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,940
S1: the LA Lakers incredible run in the 1980s, and it

478
00:21:55,940 --> 00:21:58,100
S1: starred Adrien Brody and John C Reilly. In fact, Meg,

479
00:21:58,100 --> 00:22:00,050
S1: if you haven't seen that and you have time, that's

480
00:22:00,050 --> 00:22:00,290
S1: a fun.

481
00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:01,129
S5: One to watch.

482
00:22:01,130 --> 00:22:01,940
S2: I have not, I.

483
00:22:01,940 --> 00:22:03,859
S3: Don't think so. I didn't like winning time. And you

484
00:22:03,859 --> 00:22:06,800
S3: didn't like winning time? Nah, I didn't I didn't think

485
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:07,700
S3: it got it right.

486
00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:08,330
S5: And you were.

487
00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:10,670
S1: Just thinking back to your time as a fan of

488
00:22:10,670 --> 00:22:11,270
S1: the Lakers in the.

489
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:12,080
S5: 80s, 80s.

490
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:12,919
S3: That's it. Showtime.

491
00:22:13,130 --> 00:22:15,440
S1: Magic Johnson, the guy playing him just didn't quite do

492
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:15,770
S1: it for you.

493
00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:18,080
S2: I feel like that. It's a show that didn't cut through, though.

494
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,080
S2: Like there was so much hype after two seasons. Yeah.

495
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,800
S1: Well, anyway, it was a show that existed and now

496
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,439
S1: there is a new show about basketball as well. Uh,

497
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,399
S1: it's called clipped. It's on Disney+ here in Australia. Um,

498
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,400
S1: and it's about the LA Clippers, the other team in LA.

499
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,060
S6: The Clippers have never won a championship ever. We are

500
00:22:38,060 --> 00:22:41,090
S6: going to win this year and it will change your life.

501
00:22:41,090 --> 00:22:42,830
S7: Look at you. Is that Havarti?

502
00:22:43,130 --> 00:22:45,470
S8: Um, are you trading DeAndre Jordan?

503
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:46,399
S6: Excuse me.

504
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,710
S7: This is my assistant V.

505
00:22:50,260 --> 00:22:53,380
S1: Specifically, it's about their owner, a guy called Donald Sterling,

506
00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:57,280
S1: who was forced to sell the team after leaked audio

507
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,909
S1: of him being incredibly racist, was shared to the media

508
00:23:00,910 --> 00:23:05,740
S1: by his mistress, V Stiviano, back in 2013. Did either

509
00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:08,380
S1: of you guys follow that controversy at the time? Did

510
00:23:08,380 --> 00:23:10,240
S1: you remember any of that?

511
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,580
S2: It didn't hit me at all. I mean, I've heard

512
00:23:12,580 --> 00:23:14,890
S2: the names involved, and I feel like I knew Donald

513
00:23:14,890 --> 00:23:17,830
S2: Sterling was an infamous figure, but I really didn't follow

514
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:20,619
S2: the controversy. I wasn't across his history at all, which

515
00:23:20,650 --> 00:23:23,050
S2: honestly was a rough start to the show because it

516
00:23:23,050 --> 00:23:24,580
S2: really throws you in there.

517
00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:28,240
S3: Yeah. That's interesting. I didn't follow it at the time

518
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,030
S3: because I wasn't in my NBA era as I am

519
00:23:31,030 --> 00:23:35,950
S3: in now, um, as I diversify my interests beyond books. Um,

520
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:40,240
S3: but since I have been in my NBA era, which

521
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,340
S3: kind of came on the back of the influence of

522
00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:45,100
S3: the Black Lives Matter movement in the NBA and the

523
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:46,869
S3: player empowerment movement in the NBA.

524
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:48,639
S1: Your interest in the NBA came off the back of

525
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,290
S1: the Black Lives Matter movement. No, it.

526
00:23:50,290 --> 00:23:51,790
S5: Kind of coincided.

527
00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:52,750
S3: In terms of there was a lot of.

528
00:23:52,750 --> 00:23:55,120
S5: Changes going on. Melanie Kambouris let's go.

529
00:23:55,810 --> 00:24:00,190
S3: But, um, obviously what happened with the Clippers is kind

530
00:24:00,190 --> 00:24:02,170
S3: of really feeds into that as well. So I have

531
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,109
S3: I was across the history of what went on at

532
00:24:05,109 --> 00:24:08,290
S3: the Clippers, you know, because of its ongoing influence on

533
00:24:08,290 --> 00:24:08,860
S3: the league.

534
00:24:08,859 --> 00:24:11,410
S1: Yeah. Even though the Clippers are not necessarily a very

535
00:24:11,410 --> 00:24:14,200
S1: like well known or well liked team, they're kind of

536
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,170
S1: the very, very, very minority team in L.A. in terms

537
00:24:17,170 --> 00:24:21,369
S1: of popularity. This issue around like the scandal that we're

538
00:24:21,369 --> 00:24:24,189
S1: about to talk about, the show gets into became a

539
00:24:24,190 --> 00:24:26,560
S1: bit of a microcosm for wider issues around race in

540
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,750
S1: the NBA. So basically, in this show, in clipped, in

541
00:24:28,750 --> 00:24:31,030
S1: the two episode premiere, which is out now, we get

542
00:24:31,030 --> 00:24:33,970
S1: introduced to, uh, I guess one of the main characters,

543
00:24:33,970 --> 00:24:36,610
S1: Doc Rivers, who's probably one of the best known coaches

544
00:24:36,609 --> 00:24:39,490
S1: in the modern NBA. He's played by Laurence Fishburne, and

545
00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:41,770
S1: he joins the Clippers. He's trying to turn them around.

546
00:24:41,770 --> 00:24:44,140
S1: They're a pretty good team in terms of the individual

547
00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:47,410
S1: players there, but they're just not gelling well together. They've

548
00:24:47,410 --> 00:24:50,860
S1: got a pretty crusty old organization owned by this guy,

549
00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:55,359
S1: Donald Sterling, who's a billionaire property mogul played by Modern

550
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,990
S1: Family's Ed O'Neil. The other cast is rounded out by

551
00:24:58,990 --> 00:25:02,140
S1: these two Australians screen legend Jacki Weaver, of course, who

552
00:25:02,140 --> 00:25:06,609
S1: plays Sterling's wife Shelly. And the very, very, very interesting Stiviano,

553
00:25:06,609 --> 00:25:10,510
S1: played by Australian Cleopatra Coleman. She starts as Sterling's assistant

554
00:25:10,510 --> 00:25:13,959
S1: and mistress and then becomes the agent of chaos, who,

555
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,140
S1: after a kind of complicated situation of potentially being sued

556
00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:20,830
S1: by Sterling's wife, gets a bit angry, leaks these audio

557
00:25:20,830 --> 00:25:23,710
S1: messages she has of him saying very, very racist things

558
00:25:23,710 --> 00:25:27,220
S1: sparks this series of events that leads to Sterling having

559
00:25:27,220 --> 00:25:31,150
S1: to relinquish control of the Clippers and conversations around race

560
00:25:31,150 --> 00:25:33,609
S1: in the NBA, eventually leading to Mel getting involved in

561
00:25:33,609 --> 00:25:36,129
S1: the NBA. So you really have these Stiviano to thank for.

562
00:25:36,220 --> 00:25:37,570
S5: That's in the finale, I think.

563
00:25:39,010 --> 00:25:41,380
S1: Um, so you guys didn't love winning time, but what

564
00:25:41,380 --> 00:25:42,970
S1: did you make of this one?

565
00:25:42,970 --> 00:25:46,389
S3: Mel I really loved it. I because winning time I

566
00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:49,149
S3: did not like I was did not go into this

567
00:25:49,150 --> 00:25:50,950
S3: with high hopes. I think it's really hard to get

568
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:56,109
S3: recent history right fictionally, and I find myself often disappointed

569
00:25:56,109 --> 00:25:59,140
S3: when I see representation of real life events. But you know,

570
00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:01,300
S3: when all the people are still alive and the consequences

571
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,910
S3: of the events are still unfolding. But I thought this

572
00:26:03,910 --> 00:26:06,760
S3: was great. It's really tight. It's really well shot. The

573
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:13,330
S3: actors all shine and it covers some really interesting issues race, gender, class, celebrity, fame.

574
00:26:13,330 --> 00:26:16,239
S3: It ties it all together in a very watchable and

575
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,190
S3: bingeable series. What did you think, Meg.

576
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,910
S2: Yeah, I agree, it was um, I had not much

577
00:26:21,910 --> 00:26:25,750
S2: expectations not knowing anything about the scandal really. Um, which

578
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:27,220
S2: as I said, was kind of tough at the start.

579
00:26:27,220 --> 00:26:29,170
S2: But by the end of the first episode, it really

580
00:26:29,170 --> 00:26:30,970
S2: does give you all the information that you need and

581
00:26:30,970 --> 00:26:33,730
S2: you've got a full sketch of the situation. Um, I agree,

582
00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:36,580
S2: the performances are so good. It's funny to see Ed

583
00:26:36,580 --> 00:26:40,360
S2: O'Neill being given the right just to be how horrible

584
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,340
S2: some of his characters can be. I mean, this is cooking.

585
00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:44,409
S2: This is the guy from, like, married with children who was, like,

586
00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:46,359
S2: borderline abusive back in the day, right? Like, we're just

587
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,629
S2: letting him go now. Like, good. Yeah. Um, and Cleopatra Coleman,

588
00:26:49,630 --> 00:26:52,090
S2: I mean, the character of Vee and the real life person,

589
00:26:52,090 --> 00:26:55,780
S2: from what I understand. So interesting, but so impenetrable. Like,

590
00:26:55,780 --> 00:26:58,330
S2: what a tough ass to portray someone like that on screen,

591
00:26:58,330 --> 00:27:01,510
S2: and also the way that you kind of sympathize with

592
00:27:01,510 --> 00:27:03,580
S2: her but then are confused by her actions. It's this

593
00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:08,110
S2: really interesting mix of, yeah, you side with her, but

594
00:27:08,109 --> 00:27:09,939
S2: then she pulls the rug out from under you and

595
00:27:09,940 --> 00:27:10,810
S2: it's hard as well.

596
00:27:10,810 --> 00:27:16,270
S3: And does anyone play a slightly manic, mad older woman

597
00:27:16,270 --> 00:27:17,409
S3: like Jackie Weaver?

598
00:27:17,470 --> 00:27:18,400
S5: Like, yeah.

599
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:19,870
S1: She's so perfect in that role.

600
00:27:19,869 --> 00:27:22,330
S2: The dynamic between the two of them is so interesting.

601
00:27:22,330 --> 00:27:24,760
S2: And as you said, it's kind of this great case

602
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,550
S2: study of how power works and all these situations you've got,

603
00:27:27,550 --> 00:27:29,470
S2: you know, the black players and the white owners, but

604
00:27:29,470 --> 00:27:31,780
S2: also this gender dynamic of who has power in the

605
00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:35,139
S2: relationship between this older white wife and this black younger mistress,

606
00:27:35,140 --> 00:27:37,720
S2: and especially in a time like 2014, where I mean,

607
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,689
S2: the Kardashians mentioned so many times, but she's such an

608
00:27:40,690 --> 00:27:43,930
S2: interesting Kim Kardashian like figure and how power works in,

609
00:27:43,930 --> 00:27:46,390
S2: in that kind of that world.

610
00:27:46,390 --> 00:27:49,700
S1: Yeah, I like you. Meg struggled a little bit at

611
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:53,300
S1: the start, just because the plot moves really quickly and

612
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:56,659
S1: it's a six episode series, so they're not fucking around.

613
00:27:56,660 --> 00:27:59,149
S1: They're like trying to get a lot in. But by

614
00:27:59,150 --> 00:28:01,280
S1: the end of the second episode, which is like this

615
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,540
S1: Jewel premiere. It actually, like I thought, did a really

616
00:28:05,540 --> 00:28:08,300
S1: good job of making you understand everyone's motivations, where everyone's

617
00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:11,720
S1: coming from. You get the explicit racism of Donald Sterling,

618
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,290
S1: but you also get that kind of slightly more terrifying

619
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,080
S1: implicit stuff, just the way that he acts around the

620
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,640
S1: black players, his treatment of black people as basically like,

621
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,520
S1: you know, very reminiscent of old school ideas of a

622
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,120
S1: rich white man owning black people, which he literally seems

623
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,399
S1: to think he does when he owns this team and

624
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,619
S1: their uncomfortable response to his behavior. It also you mentioned

625
00:28:36,619 --> 00:28:39,020
S1: the Kardashians. I think it's so interesting the way that

626
00:28:39,020 --> 00:28:43,460
S1: it uses the watching TV or scrolling on Instagram to

627
00:28:43,460 --> 00:28:46,280
S1: give you a sense of what culture was like in

628
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,160
S1: that part of the 20 tens, and it puts her

629
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,730
S1: decision making around how to react to this guy in

630
00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:57,980
S1: a framework of reality TV, of normal people becoming celebrities

631
00:28:57,980 --> 00:29:01,550
S1: by their proximity to other famous people, or in the

632
00:29:01,550 --> 00:29:06,470
S1: very explicitly referenced scenes with Kim and Paris, like leaking tapes.

633
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:08,810
S1: And there is this bit where everyone thinks this tape's

634
00:29:08,810 --> 00:29:10,970
S1: been leaked. They think it's a sex tape, and it's not.

635
00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:13,100
S1: It's just like a racist audio. But you can see

636
00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:15,620
S1: her wanting to get revenge at this much more powerful

637
00:29:15,620 --> 00:29:19,010
S1: guy who's got really good and very threatening lawyers. She's

638
00:29:19,010 --> 00:29:22,040
S1: using the tools that a woman of her status and

639
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,730
S1: background has at that time, which is social media, and

640
00:29:25,730 --> 00:29:28,220
S1: taking control of the narrative by leaking stuff to things

641
00:29:28,220 --> 00:29:31,700
S1: like TMZ. And that made this a much more interesting

642
00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:34,610
S1: show than just being a narrative retelling of what was

643
00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:37,910
S1: going on, because it's also a really interesting commentary on

644
00:29:37,910 --> 00:29:42,440
S1: America and the way that culture has now become like,

645
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,260
S1: we don't even take out the Kardashians, a reference so

646
00:29:45,260 --> 00:29:47,480
S1: many times, but it never really feels on the nose

647
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,820
S1: because we now live in that world. Like that is

648
00:29:49,820 --> 00:29:54,110
S1: how everyone exercises politics and and power plays.

649
00:29:54,350 --> 00:29:56,870
S2: We do and don't. Because, I mean, 2014 is this

650
00:29:56,870 --> 00:30:00,050
S2: interesting time where it's like I saw someone talking about

651
00:30:00,050 --> 00:30:02,209
S2: how it's this mid space between like short term and

652
00:30:02,210 --> 00:30:04,640
S2: long term memory. It's like it feels like we're living

653
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,560
S2: in that world, but we're also not all the kind

654
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,080
S2: of there's these scenes where like, you know, block text

655
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,700
S2: memes come at your face and it's like, oh yeah,

656
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:11,810
S2: we don't speak like that anymore.

657
00:30:12,020 --> 00:30:14,840
S1: The Instagram like kind of app itself is.

658
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:15,860
S5: Very it's very dated.

659
00:30:15,860 --> 00:30:16,880
S1: It's like the old school one.

660
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,580
S2: But it is an interesting environment for something like this

661
00:30:19,580 --> 00:30:23,090
S2: to play out, because it is this moment of TMZ

662
00:30:23,090 --> 00:30:25,760
S2: rumors spiraling on the internet. It's a, you know, the

663
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,370
S2: flourishing age of digital media online where these stories could

664
00:30:28,370 --> 00:30:30,350
S2: just get a life of their own, and everyone was

665
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:32,090
S2: on Twitter to poke fun at it. It's the age of,

666
00:30:32,090 --> 00:30:34,820
S2: you know, Gawker and that kind of stuff. So it

667
00:30:34,820 --> 00:30:36,770
S2: is interesting almost as a period piece.

668
00:30:36,770 --> 00:30:39,500
S3: I think part of what makes this show quite interesting

669
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:42,440
S3: is it is a revisioning from how I understand V

670
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,110
S3: was covered at the time, kind of dismissed as a

671
00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:50,060
S3: power hungry, money grabbing mistress to a wealthy man. And

672
00:30:50,060 --> 00:30:52,760
S3: I think the show is putting her in a context

673
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,550
S3: that allows a different story to be told than that

674
00:30:55,550 --> 00:30:58,520
S3: that played out in social media, which is infiltrated kind

675
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,880
S3: of aesthetically into this show by showing those clips. I

676
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,310
S3: actually found, because the show has little clips of social

677
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:08,120
S3: media scrolls. So it's dating it into 2014, but social

678
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,790
S3: media was really coming into itself then, because it then

679
00:31:10,790 --> 00:31:13,070
S3: obviously plays out with the decision to get rid of

680
00:31:13,070 --> 00:31:16,040
S3: Donald Sterling as well, with the boycott moving, starting there.

681
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,650
S3: So I thought they integrated that really nicely.

682
00:31:29,530 --> 00:31:31,750
S1: How do you guys find the other performance in this?

683
00:31:31,750 --> 00:31:34,810
S1: I don't know if you have a read on like

684
00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:37,450
S1: Doc Rivers Mel in your NBA era, like he has

685
00:31:37,450 --> 00:31:42,550
S1: a very distinctive, gravelly voice that Laurence Fishburne is trying

686
00:31:42,550 --> 00:31:45,400
S1: to channel. Like, it's like sometimes he's doing it, sometimes

687
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,880
S1: he's not. Did you brush up against that or how

688
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,170
S1: did you find his performance?

689
00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:52,420
S3: I think Doc Rivers came out of this really well.

690
00:31:52,420 --> 00:31:55,270
S3: He looked like such a players coach. I think I'd

691
00:31:55,270 --> 00:31:57,490
S3: like him to be a coach in my life. Um,

692
00:31:57,490 --> 00:31:59,560
S3: I thought all the details. There were a lot of

693
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,690
S3: small details that I found very funny in this show,

694
00:32:01,690 --> 00:32:03,640
S3: and it is a very funny show. Like, I really

695
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,620
S3: enjoyed how Donald Sterling's character, like, can't really understand technology.

696
00:32:08,620 --> 00:32:10,420
S3: Like when they talk about a tape, he's like a

697
00:32:10,420 --> 00:32:13,720
S3: video tape and he's always like yelling into his phone,

698
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,510
S3: which is always on loudspeaker. I thought there's like really

699
00:32:16,510 --> 00:32:18,850
S3: funny small moments in this. So even though it's about

700
00:32:18,850 --> 00:32:21,940
S3: this very serious issue and it kind of an account

701
00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:24,400
S3: of history, yeah, there's a lot of humor into it

702
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,790
S3: that maybe hasn't been stated as as much as I

703
00:32:27,790 --> 00:32:28,660
S3: think it should be.

704
00:32:28,660 --> 00:32:30,400
S1: And Meg, one of the questions I wanted to ask

705
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,840
S1: you is someone who doesn't really follow basketball. There isn't

706
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,969
S1: a heap of basketball in the show, but do you

707
00:32:36,970 --> 00:32:40,330
S1: think there's enough in it for like, regular folk who

708
00:32:40,330 --> 00:32:42,460
S1: just like, oh, I don't really care about what the L.A.

709
00:32:42,460 --> 00:32:45,370
S1: Clippers were up to ten years ago? Is there enough

710
00:32:45,370 --> 00:32:47,530
S1: for those kinds of people to, to to engage with

711
00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:48,280
S1: this TV show?

712
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:48,880
S5: Yeah, I.

713
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,160
S2: Think it's I think it's suited to people who aren't

714
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,250
S2: really interested in the actual sport of basketball, because really

715
00:32:54,250 --> 00:32:56,770
S2: it's about the industry around it and the figures involved.

716
00:32:56,770 --> 00:32:59,410
S2: And as you said, the media at the time, I mean,

717
00:32:59,410 --> 00:33:02,500
S2: the screen time of actual basketball being played is under

718
00:33:02,500 --> 00:33:04,270
S2: two minutes. I swear in this, in the first two

719
00:33:04,270 --> 00:33:05,380
S2: episodes at least.

720
00:33:05,410 --> 00:33:09,190
S1: Should we talk about Cleopatra Coleman for a bit? So

721
00:33:09,190 --> 00:33:12,010
S1: she's an Australian actress? I haven't seen her in a lot.

722
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,550
S1: I did see her in the Brandon Cronenberg film Infinity

723
00:33:15,550 --> 00:33:17,230
S1: Pool that came out last year, and she was like

724
00:33:17,230 --> 00:33:20,140
S1: one of the leads. I think it was Alexander Sarsgaard's wife.

725
00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:23,080
S1: She played and like really, really interesting performance. But another

726
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,190
S1: one of these, like Australian actresses who are not white,

727
00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:30,250
S1: who don't seem to have had much of a career

728
00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:34,720
S1: in Australia and then go overseas to LA and all

729
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,400
S1: of a sudden they're on a hot streak, like thinking

730
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,570
S1: about Geraldine Viswanathan, thinking about Charmaine Bingwa, who's on the

731
00:33:40,570 --> 00:33:43,420
S1: good fight. I think obviously there's something to be said

732
00:33:43,420 --> 00:33:46,870
S1: about the lack of roles for these kinds of actors

733
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:51,340
S1: and actresses. The perhaps, you know, backwards nature of where

734
00:33:51,340 --> 00:33:54,100
S1: the Australian industry seems to be compared to the conversations

735
00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:57,880
S1: in Hollywood. I thought she was pretty astonishing in this role.

736
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,850
S1: I know that, um, Mel, you've what? Your colleague Rob,

737
00:34:00,850 --> 00:34:04,090
S1: our colleague, has interviewed her for a story coming out

738
00:34:04,090 --> 00:34:07,300
S1: in spectrum this weekend. What's your kind of read on,

739
00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:08,590
S1: Cleo in this show?

740
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,020
S3: I think she does such a good job. I think

741
00:34:11,020 --> 00:34:13,690
S3: it's a very hard role to play where you're trying

742
00:34:13,690 --> 00:34:16,150
S3: not to give too much, but you also need to

743
00:34:16,150 --> 00:34:18,850
S3: find a way for the audience to empathize with you.

744
00:34:18,850 --> 00:34:20,860
S3: I think the fact and she talks to Rob about

745
00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:23,350
S3: this in our interview, which you can find on on

746
00:34:23,350 --> 00:34:27,250
S3: The Age and Herald websites that, uh, yeah, she needed

747
00:34:27,250 --> 00:34:29,560
S3: to go overseas because there were not enough roles here.

748
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,560
S3: And it's such a sad indicted point on the Australian

749
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,020
S3: film industry and the diversity of storytelling here that that

750
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:38,560
S3: is still continuing to happen. She's had other roles, as

751
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,810
S3: you mentioned, overseas infinity pool, you might quite a few

752
00:34:40,810 --> 00:34:42,400
S3: people know her from The Last Man on Earth, where

753
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,200
S3: she did play an Australian in it. She was in

754
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,530
S3: Rebel Moon, weirdly, she was in Step Up, played a DJ.

755
00:34:47,860 --> 00:34:48,610
S3: Pretty cool.

756
00:34:48,700 --> 00:34:49,629
S5: Um, she was also in the music.

757
00:34:49,630 --> 00:34:52,330
S1: Video for Galantis, you and I, which is like a

758
00:34:52,330 --> 00:34:55,870
S1: great song from like whenever it was like 2016, 17.

759
00:34:55,870 --> 00:34:56,890
S1: I love that tune.

760
00:34:56,890 --> 00:34:57,940
S5: Yeah, it's a.

761
00:34:57,940 --> 00:35:01,750
S3: Banger, but I think this is a real breakout star

762
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:04,540
S3: turn in the very kind of traditional sense of the role.

763
00:35:04,540 --> 00:35:06,879
S3: So I think we'll probably be seeing a lot more

764
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,040
S3: of her because she does steal. All the characters are good,

765
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,410
S3: but she does steal the show in that performance.

766
00:35:11,410 --> 00:35:13,180
S2: She does. I was surprised by what a lead she

767
00:35:13,180 --> 00:35:15,250
S2: is in the show. You hear in Australians coming up

768
00:35:15,250 --> 00:35:17,109
S2: in a US production and you're like, oh, that's cool.

769
00:35:17,110 --> 00:35:18,370
S2: They got a bit part. It's like, no, no, no.

770
00:35:18,370 --> 00:35:21,520
S2: She is the main character and she's doing an incredible job.

771
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,610
S2: But it's so depressing. I mean, you mentioned the names

772
00:35:24,610 --> 00:35:27,220
S2: of how many people this has happened to. Like I

773
00:35:27,219 --> 00:35:30,100
S2: feel as though they get no jobs in Australia. They

774
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:32,230
S2: get no chances to actually shine like this. And then

775
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:33,970
S2: once they're overseas, people are like, oh, did you know

776
00:35:33,969 --> 00:35:37,630
S2: they're Australian? Like almost claiming them after the fact? It's

777
00:35:37,630 --> 00:35:39,910
S2: so depressing. And I don't know how that's going to change.

778
00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:44,080
S2: I mean, the film and TV production in Australia is,

779
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,080
S2: you know, there's great stuff going on, but it seems

780
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,450
S2: like the pool of roles are getting smaller, the opportunities

781
00:35:49,450 --> 00:35:52,240
S2: are getting less, and what new generation is struggling to

782
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:53,200
S2: get through now.

783
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,380
S3: She did mention in her interview that she's really keen

784
00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:58,150
S3: to come back and work in Australia, and that she

785
00:35:58,150 --> 00:36:01,719
S3: feels it's important that she has a presence in Australian storytelling.

786
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,390
S3: So I think she is actively on the hunt for

787
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:06,850
S3: roles here, which is great because the other option for

788
00:36:06,850 --> 00:36:09,700
S3: actors is to not come back and be a part

789
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:12,070
S3: of the local scene. So, um, I hope we see

790
00:36:12,070 --> 00:36:14,260
S3: her involved in some Australian productions soon.

791
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,190
S1: I don't want to put, um, like PR people on

792
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:19,259
S1: blast too much because I know that they listen to

793
00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:22,049
S1: this show and we work with them like day to day.

794
00:36:22,050 --> 00:36:28,259
S1: But the lack of proactive. Promotion of this show, which features,

795
00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:31,620
S1: as you've said, not only an up and coming and

796
00:36:31,620 --> 00:36:35,610
S1: really interesting and really good Australian actor, but also someone

797
00:36:35,610 --> 00:36:39,120
S1: of the calibre of Jacki Weaver is kind of disappointing. Like,

798
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,160
S1: I don't know what. Disney+. We've mentioned this a couple

799
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,469
S1: of times. It's very confusing. So in the US, this

800
00:36:43,469 --> 00:36:46,470
S1: is a show that was produced by FX, which streams

801
00:36:46,469 --> 00:36:50,009
S1: on Hulu, which is in America, called FX on Hulu,

802
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:53,700
S1: which in Australia is a channel of Disney+. So there's

803
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:58,969
S1: so many strange, weird, boring streaming like. Processes here that

804
00:36:58,969 --> 00:37:02,239
S1: may be impacted this. But if I was Disney+ and

805
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,169
S1: I'm in a fragmented streaming landscape, I would be shouting

806
00:37:06,170 --> 00:37:08,720
S1: from the rooftops. There is a show coming out with

807
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,880
S1: Laurence Fishburne, which you all know from, like The Matrix

808
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,110
S1: and a bunch of stuff and two Australian actresses of

809
00:37:15,110 --> 00:37:18,140
S1: different generations that is getting rave reviews. You guys should

810
00:37:18,140 --> 00:37:20,660
S1: watch it and they just haven't done that. It is

811
00:37:20,660 --> 00:37:23,240
S1: not great, but hopefully us talking about it will encourage

812
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:24,260
S1: people to check it out.

813
00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:26,870
S3: I know, I hope so because I was when I

814
00:37:26,870 --> 00:37:29,029
S3: saw that they were releasing this, they released two to

815
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:31,339
S3: start and then they're going weekly for the six. I

816
00:37:31,340 --> 00:37:33,320
S3: was okay with the weekly release because I was like, great,

817
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:34,730
S3: we can all talk about it every week. And then

818
00:37:34,730 --> 00:37:36,259
S3: I was like, oh, I have no one to talk

819
00:37:36,260 --> 00:37:39,350
S3: to about it, because, yeah, I think it's completely flown

820
00:37:39,350 --> 00:37:41,000
S3: under the radar. And I don't know if they thought

821
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,259
S3: maybe the basketball cell wouldn't work here, but with Jacki Weaver,

822
00:37:45,260 --> 00:37:46,160
S3: they get a whole new audience.

823
00:37:46,219 --> 00:37:46,609
S5: You know what else.

824
00:37:46,610 --> 00:37:48,979
S1: Is happening right now? The playoffs are freaking happening. Like

825
00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:51,620
S1: basketball is a huge thing right now. It seems like

826
00:37:51,620 --> 00:37:53,000
S1: such a strange moment.

827
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,980
S2: But even internationally, I don't think this show is getting

828
00:37:54,980 --> 00:37:56,779
S2: quite as much buzz as maybe they would have hoped

829
00:37:56,780 --> 00:37:58,370
S2: when they were making it. And I don't know if

830
00:37:58,370 --> 00:38:01,460
S2: that's because there's been so many basketball stories recently that

831
00:38:01,460 --> 00:38:04,190
S2: people feel a bit checked out on it. Yeah, but

832
00:38:04,190 --> 00:38:07,279
S2: I mean, it is worth watching. And so that shouldn't

833
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:08,540
S2: be a deterrent for anyone listening.

834
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,819
S1: And I think the other part of the show that

835
00:38:10,820 --> 00:38:13,670
S1: had contemporary resonance for me and very happy, if you

836
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:16,009
S1: guys think that I'm just being crazy here, but we

837
00:38:16,010 --> 00:38:18,680
S1: have a main character called Donald who is like a

838
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:23,210
S1: property billionaire who is brought undone by a leaked audio

839
00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:27,680
S1: recordings of him being very mean about like marginalized and

840
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,460
S1: vulnerable people that coming out like in an election year

841
00:38:31,460 --> 00:38:34,819
S1: where Donald Trump is back, it doesn't feel accidental. Like

842
00:38:34,820 --> 00:38:36,649
S1: I feel like this is also a bit of a

843
00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:40,759
S1: interrogation of the kind of man that has been built

844
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,310
S1: up in America and is allowed to just run things.

845
00:38:43,310 --> 00:38:46,580
S1: And even though sterling, like sterling's consequences in real life,

846
00:38:46,580 --> 00:38:48,080
S1: were not up to this bit in the show yet,

847
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,960
S1: he's forced to sell his company for $2 billion like

848
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:52,850
S1: it's he didn't go to jail. He didn't really face

849
00:38:52,850 --> 00:38:56,180
S1: any consequences. I think there's another layer of social resonance

850
00:38:56,180 --> 00:38:57,110
S1: to this show, too.

851
00:38:57,110 --> 00:39:00,380
S3: Yeah, I completely agree. It's very timely. And it's also

852
00:39:00,710 --> 00:39:03,200
S3: obviously speaking to the now as much as it is

853
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:08,239
S3: recounting the history of that time. And it's a reminder

854
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,060
S3: of why we don't like to let powerful men go

855
00:39:11,060 --> 00:39:14,029
S3: unchecked and why hopefully we've moved forward as a society

856
00:39:14,030 --> 00:39:15,560
S3: from that time. Maybe it's a.

857
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,710
S2: Conspiracy, these PR Republicans trying to hold it down.

858
00:39:19,310 --> 00:39:19,520
S5: Yeah.

859
00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:24,080
S1: Um, well, speaking of, um, insane egotistical maniacs, that brings

860
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,360
S1: us to our second show.

861
00:39:27,410 --> 00:39:31,730
S6: Ever, Renaissance Faire. And the United States came into being

862
00:39:31,730 --> 00:39:36,180
S6: because they wanted to be like George. He's got this

863
00:39:36,180 --> 00:39:36,960
S6: whole thing.

864
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:37,950
S9: He's the ruler.

865
00:39:38,850 --> 00:39:41,460
S10: He's not crazy. He's just thinking on a level that

866
00:39:41,460 --> 00:39:42,600
S10: you can't comprehend.

867
00:39:42,780 --> 00:39:45,149
S9: I don't know what's going to happen to it after

868
00:39:45,150 --> 00:39:51,359
S9: he's gone, because if he ain't working it, it don't work. George. George. George. George. George.

869
00:39:53,450 --> 00:39:56,420
S11: The perfect way to go would be have a woman

870
00:39:56,420 --> 00:40:01,400
S11: screw me to death. And that's my goal.

871
00:40:01,940 --> 00:40:05,510
S1: Ren faire has been called a combination of succession and

872
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:09,530
S1: Willy Wonka. It's executive produced by the Safdies, who've recently

873
00:40:09,530 --> 00:40:13,520
S1: teamed up to give us The Curse and Telemarketers. Renfer

874
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,960
S1: is a documentary set in Texas's biggest Renaissance Faire. I

875
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:23,000
S1: don't really have much of a relationship to Renaissance fairs. Um, my.

876
00:40:23,610 --> 00:40:28,529
S1: They're basically these like, you know, reconstructions of medieval villages, castles,

877
00:40:28,530 --> 00:40:32,010
S1: and there's jousting and sword fighting and role playing. I

878
00:40:32,010 --> 00:40:34,350
S1: kind of only know about them from that Simpsons episode

879
00:40:34,350 --> 00:40:37,880
S1: where they go to one and Lisa. Speaks that fortune

880
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,280
S1: teller and like gets her future. Either of you guys

881
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,870
S1: been to a renaissance fair?

882
00:40:41,870 --> 00:40:44,060
S3: I'm so surprised I can actually see you being a

883
00:40:44,060 --> 00:40:47,060
S3: big Renaissance fair. Hair like, I think that totally. I can.

884
00:40:47,060 --> 00:40:47,600
S5: Imagine you.

885
00:40:47,690 --> 00:40:51,589
S3: Dressing up and being like her. Tears are just like.

886
00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:52,549
S5: Just.

887
00:40:52,730 --> 00:40:55,160
S1: I do like to dress up and drink if that's. Yeah.

888
00:40:55,489 --> 00:40:58,820
S3: Wearing, like, chain chain gear. I can totally see you

889
00:40:58,820 --> 00:41:00,920
S3: doing this. And you'd have, like, a different persona. I

890
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,690
S3: don't know what your name would be. Osman the Great.

891
00:41:02,690 --> 00:41:05,720
S3: And yeah, I think you should consider it actively as

892
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:06,379
S3: a hobby that you could.

893
00:41:06,380 --> 00:41:08,180
S1: Well, when I was doing research on this, I did

894
00:41:08,180 --> 00:41:11,510
S1: discover there are quite a few Australian Renaissance fairs as well.

895
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:14,030
S1: So maybe we should. We should send someone to them.

896
00:41:14,030 --> 00:41:15,110
S5: You, me.

897
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,240
S1: Meg. Your rent fair. Rent fair.

898
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:17,660
S5: Person.

899
00:41:17,660 --> 00:41:20,690
S2: No, I've never seen one in the wild. I do

900
00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:23,390
S2: have friends who do that kind of live action role

901
00:41:23,390 --> 00:41:27,890
S2: play stuff. Yeah, um, but I've never attended. Sorry to

902
00:41:28,130 --> 00:41:29,300
S2: any of them are listening.

903
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:29,870
S5: Well, okay.

904
00:41:29,870 --> 00:41:31,370
S1: So all of us had probably a bit of a

905
00:41:31,370 --> 00:41:34,939
S1: wacky first encounter with this show. It's a three part series,

906
00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:38,000
S1: and in the very first episode, we quickly understand that

907
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,700
S1: this isn't just like a silly little thing. This is

908
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:45,230
S1: a giant corporate enterprise. There's millions of dollars at stake

909
00:41:45,230 --> 00:41:47,180
S1: in terms of the running of these fairs. The people

910
00:41:47,180 --> 00:41:49,430
S1: at the top seem to be making a lot of money.

911
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:52,609
S1: The Texas Renaissance Fair, which is the one that we're

912
00:41:52,610 --> 00:41:55,100
S1: focusing in on in this show, was founded and it's

913
00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:59,359
S1: owned by a man called King George. Uh, it's super popular,

914
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,350
S1: super lucrative, and he's also very politically influential. He's actually

915
00:42:03,350 --> 00:42:06,860
S1: the mayor of the local community in Texas, where this, uh,

916
00:42:06,860 --> 00:42:11,030
S1: Renaissance Fair is based. Uh, George is old, he's 86,

917
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:13,940
S1: and he's going to die soon. So a power struggle

918
00:42:13,940 --> 00:42:17,780
S1: erupts amongst some of his lieutenants who are looking for control,

919
00:42:17,780 --> 00:42:23,450
S1: taking over this insane, believe it or not, real life institution. Um,

920
00:42:23,450 --> 00:42:25,880
S1: a couple of the people battling it out, there's Jeff.

921
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,130
S1: He's worked at the festival for more than 40 years,

922
00:42:28,130 --> 00:42:30,260
S1: and he's got an old school approach, and he seems

923
00:42:30,260 --> 00:42:33,950
S1: to be George's anointed successor, keeping the fair going as

924
00:42:33,950 --> 00:42:36,770
S1: it's been. And then there's Louis, who wants to kind

925
00:42:36,770 --> 00:42:39,710
S1: of soup it up, make it technologically advanced, and take

926
00:42:39,710 --> 00:42:42,470
S1: the fair to another level. There's like a very weird

927
00:42:42,469 --> 00:42:46,280
S1: and pretty crazy show. It's a doco, but it's shot

928
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,589
S1: almost like a drama. The way you get this like

929
00:42:48,590 --> 00:42:52,190
S1: B-roll that seems to suggest this is a real world.

930
00:42:52,190 --> 00:42:56,060
S1: There's a lot of crazy, larger than life characters. Uh,

931
00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:59,990
S1: there's a lot of talk about loyalty, there's maneuvering, there's

932
00:42:59,989 --> 00:43:02,930
S1: some brutal behind the scenes power plays, and King George

933
00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:05,629
S1: himself doesn't feel like a real person, but he kind

934
00:43:05,630 --> 00:43:08,060
S1: of is. How did you guys find this show?

935
00:43:08,060 --> 00:43:08,420
S5: I think.

936
00:43:08,420 --> 00:43:08,870
S2: You should go.

937
00:43:08,870 --> 00:43:10,040
S5: First. Oh.

938
00:43:10,190 --> 00:43:14,870
S1: Um. Okay. Uh, I thought it was really interesting show. Uh,

939
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:17,900
S1: I thought it was really interesting and really good for

940
00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:20,899
S1: a couple of reasons. I did not know anything about

941
00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:23,779
S1: this world, but I became pretty invested in it quickly

942
00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:29,150
S1: because I think the show without labouring the point. Makes

943
00:43:29,150 --> 00:43:32,000
S1: you realize that even though on the surface this seems

944
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,300
S1: like it's silly people playing up as knights, this is

945
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:38,420
S1: actually about like a corporate power struggle. Like one of

946
00:43:38,420 --> 00:43:42,050
S1: the one of the guys going after control of this.

947
00:43:42,050 --> 00:43:46,850
S1: His like family are investors, and it's basically just another

948
00:43:46,850 --> 00:43:51,620
S1: struggle for money and power in a very like modern

949
00:43:51,620 --> 00:43:55,850
S1: American corporate sense. But with this layer of wacky characters

950
00:43:55,850 --> 00:44:00,049
S1: pretending to be knights and jousting, King George is like,

951
00:44:00,050 --> 00:44:03,140
S1: so insane and so compelling. And again, like the Donald

952
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:05,990
S1: Sterling thing we were just talking about, it's crazy to

953
00:44:05,989 --> 00:44:08,300
S1: me that a guy who is this old, who is

954
00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:12,080
S1: like on sugar daddy websites and is really explicit about

955
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,000
S1: what kinds of women he wants to date, they have

956
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,399
S1: to be this old. They have to be this fit.

957
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,150
S1: They can't have plastic surgery is just allowed to be

958
00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:23,210
S1: the boss of something that employs hundreds and hundreds of

959
00:44:23,210 --> 00:44:26,180
S1: people and is like the mayor. So I like I

960
00:44:26,180 --> 00:44:28,760
S1: think this is what the Safdies have been doing so

961
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,910
S1: well with both the curse and telemarketers lately, is finding

962
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:35,120
S1: these completely insane stories and plots and characters and just

963
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,850
S1: being like, this is actually how America works, and whether

964
00:44:37,850 --> 00:44:42,200
S1: it's a fair, whether it's a basketball team, whether it's politics,

965
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,150
S1: we are ruled by insane old crazy men, and the

966
00:44:47,150 --> 00:44:49,400
S1: rest of us are just kind of subject to their whims.

967
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,370
S1: That's kind of my read on the show and why

968
00:44:52,370 --> 00:44:55,280
S1: I enjoyed it. I get the feeling from your aggressive

969
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:56,330
S1: question to me, you.

970
00:44:56,330 --> 00:44:57,109
S5: Said you wanted to be.

971
00:44:57,110 --> 00:44:59,300
S2: Asked off on the pod. I'm being generous.

972
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:01,730
S1: Um, it didn't hit as much for.

973
00:45:01,730 --> 00:45:05,450
S2: You know, I think I went in with different expectations,

974
00:45:05,450 --> 00:45:08,420
S2: like so I heard that it's a documentary about this

975
00:45:08,420 --> 00:45:11,960
S2: bizarre community, this Renaissance fair that's taken over a whole town.

976
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,839
S2: What a wacky situation. It's got this crazy guy at

977
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,810
S2: the at the helm. Um, I feel like I went

978
00:45:17,810 --> 00:45:20,420
S2: in with the expectation that it's this kind of documentary,

979
00:45:20,420 --> 00:45:22,310
S2: and there's a rich history of these that go into

980
00:45:22,310 --> 00:45:25,670
S2: a niche community and understand why people do these things.

981
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:27,650
S2: Why did he set this up? Who are the people

982
00:45:27,650 --> 00:45:29,930
S2: who run it, who dedicate their lives to something like this?

983
00:45:29,930 --> 00:45:33,110
S2: What are the stories behind there? And in most cases,

984
00:45:33,110 --> 00:45:38,600
S2: texts like that really are affectionate towards their subjects or,

985
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,030
S2: you know, understanding of why they leave, live their lives

986
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:43,550
S2: the way they do. And I think I was more

987
00:45:43,550 --> 00:45:47,690
S2: primed for that. And as much as I, I recognize

988
00:45:47,690 --> 00:45:50,780
S2: all the points you said, and I do enjoy watching this,

989
00:45:50,780 --> 00:45:57,230
S2: you know, frankly, crazy guy boast about his ornate baroque toilet. Um,

990
00:45:57,590 --> 00:46:00,500
S2: it was just a strange cold watch to me because

991
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:04,400
S2: it's not as though I was waiting for the, you know,

992
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,580
S2: Renaissance fair community to be taken down a notch. It's

993
00:46:07,580 --> 00:46:11,330
S2: not succession. We're not. It's not these figureheads who we

994
00:46:11,330 --> 00:46:15,650
S2: all know run the world. It's a very specific situation,

995
00:46:15,650 --> 00:46:18,439
S2: which I didn't feel was quite as ripe for interrogation.

996
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,239
S2: Or even if you have that, I just wanted more

997
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,239
S2: warmth within it. It's set up as a succession battle,

998
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,370
S2: and I'm not really given the stakes, is why I care.

999
00:46:25,370 --> 00:46:27,950
S1: Yeah, and there's not. That's a fair point. And you

1000
00:46:27,950 --> 00:46:31,040
S1: don't get the closest you seem to sympathize with anyone

1001
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,260
S1: is just like the regular workers at this fair. But

1002
00:46:33,260 --> 00:46:35,270
S1: you don't really get enough of a sense know of

1003
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:37,310
S1: who they are. They're sort of being yelled at and

1004
00:46:37,310 --> 00:46:39,140
S1: being told to like, be better at their jobs. And

1005
00:46:39,140 --> 00:46:41,839
S1: they clearly cogs in this machine, which makes a lot

1006
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,819
S1: of money for people at the top. But there's no

1007
00:46:43,820 --> 00:46:45,440
S1: one to kind of hold on to and be like,

1008
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,470
S1: what does this mean for the guy making popcorn? Or

1009
00:46:48,469 --> 00:46:51,830
S1: the guy who just goes in every day and beats

1010
00:46:51,830 --> 00:46:53,299
S1: someone up with a sword, or gets beaten up with

1011
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:53,629
S1: a sword?

1012
00:46:53,630 --> 00:46:55,520
S2: Yeah, it kind of. It reminded me a bit of

1013
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,830
S2: Tiger King in a sense, where it's like the goal

1014
00:46:57,830 --> 00:46:59,420
S2: of the documentary is to come in and be like,

1015
00:46:59,420 --> 00:47:00,530
S2: look at these freaks.

1016
00:47:00,530 --> 00:47:02,810
S1: Yeah, I think, I think it probably is in that

1017
00:47:02,810 --> 00:47:05,810
S1: vein of Tiger King. That's a really good comparison. Um, Mel,

1018
00:47:05,810 --> 00:47:06,530
S1: what about you?

1019
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,339
S3: Yeah, I completely agree that there was no outsider voice

1020
00:47:10,340 --> 00:47:12,950
S3: to guide you through the insanity of this, and we

1021
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:16,279
S3: needed someone to kind of represent us there. I really

1022
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,200
S3: wanted to like this. I love the Safdie brothers. I

1023
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,210
S3: thought The telemarketers was one of the best shows of

1024
00:47:20,210 --> 00:47:23,810
S3: the year, but I think that this show tries so

1025
00:47:23,810 --> 00:47:27,410
S3: hard to point out the insanity of the situation, that

1026
00:47:27,410 --> 00:47:30,320
S3: it misses the fact that absurdity actually comes through when

1027
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,469
S3: you just kind of let humanity be quiet. To me,

1028
00:47:33,469 --> 00:47:37,160
S3: this show was so overdirected I had like sensory overstimulation.

1029
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,320
S3: I could not handle it. And I know don't come

1030
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:40,880
S3: at me because I get what he's trying to do.

1031
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,980
S3: It's like it's an artificial thing.

1032
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,360
S5: I'm not gonna come at you like to.

1033
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,460
S3: Have an opinion, tell me you're gonna say, oh, it's

1034
00:47:46,460 --> 00:47:49,010
S3: an artificial world. So he's trying to match the film.

1035
00:47:49,310 --> 00:47:51,620
S5: But you just stick to delivering your take before.

1036
00:47:51,620 --> 00:47:53,899
S1: You try to do my take in response to your take.

1037
00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:55,130
S5: Yeah, I just preempting.

1038
00:47:55,130 --> 00:47:57,830
S3: I'm just preempting. So, um. Yeah, I get like, he's

1039
00:47:57,830 --> 00:48:00,980
S3: trying to be he's trying to forefront the artifice of

1040
00:48:00,980 --> 00:48:04,700
S3: this show through these over the top filmmaking techniques. But

1041
00:48:04,700 --> 00:48:06,919
S3: I think the intention when you do that, when you

1042
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,759
S3: foreground the artifice, is to hit a authenticity in the show.

1043
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,550
S3: And this show does not feel authentic to me in

1044
00:48:13,550 --> 00:48:17,690
S3: any way. And it is so set up and choreographed

1045
00:48:17,690 --> 00:48:21,110
S3: that every single scene, to me feels like it was

1046
00:48:21,110 --> 00:48:24,440
S3: really heavily scripted, and I wouldn't be surprised if this

1047
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,569
S3: is like a case of the rehearsal kind of they're

1048
00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:28,790
S3: pulling that move again where they're. Going to come out

1049
00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:31,430
S3: and be like, yeah, it wasn't real at all because

1050
00:48:31,430 --> 00:48:33,319
S3: there are some shots that there is no way those

1051
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:38,390
S3: people authentically were having those moments, conversations, situations. And yeah,

1052
00:48:38,390 --> 00:48:42,170
S3: I just found the over shot over, directed over lit

1053
00:48:42,170 --> 00:48:45,230
S3: over music stuff of it all was too much and

1054
00:48:45,230 --> 00:48:48,200
S3: it stole from what could have been an otherwise good story.

1055
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,419
S3: And I do think the comparisons it keeps being oh,

1056
00:48:50,420 --> 00:48:53,030
S3: it's Game of Thrones meets Vanderpump Rules.

1057
00:48:53,180 --> 00:48:54,200
S5: The director said he was.

1058
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,469
S3: Influenced by there Will Be Blood, P.T. Anderson. It in

1059
00:48:57,469 --> 00:49:00,230
S3: no way could you put that in this show in

1060
00:49:00,230 --> 00:49:03,350
S3: the same sentence as any of those. He is wildly

1061
00:49:03,350 --> 00:49:05,420
S3: out of his mind about what he was doing with this.

1062
00:49:05,420 --> 00:49:07,130
S2: It seems like it should be one or the other.

1063
00:49:07,130 --> 00:49:09,020
S2: They should have gone full documentary and done like a

1064
00:49:09,020 --> 00:49:11,930
S2: Luther Road style thing, where you would have that authorial

1065
00:49:11,930 --> 00:49:13,760
S2: presence to make sense of it all, or just make

1066
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,770
S2: a scripted drama and then say it's based on a

1067
00:49:15,770 --> 00:49:17,419
S2: true story and people be like, whoa.

1068
00:49:17,450 --> 00:49:21,620
S1: I look, I don't really disagree with what you said, Mel. Like,

1069
00:49:21,620 --> 00:49:24,410
S1: I think they're all very fair critiques and I'm not like,

1070
00:49:24,770 --> 00:49:27,979
S1: so hype on this show that I'm offended that you've

1071
00:49:27,980 --> 00:49:31,790
S1: criticized it. Um, the director, this guy, Lance Oppenheim, he's

1072
00:49:31,790 --> 00:49:33,980
S1: made some films and done some short film stuff. I

1073
00:49:33,980 --> 00:49:35,930
S1: think this is his first TV show, and he's probably

1074
00:49:35,930 --> 00:49:37,910
S1: trying to he's probably got more of a budget than

1075
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:41,150
S1: he ever thought he would. Um, with the safdies behind him, um,

1076
00:49:41,150 --> 00:49:44,899
S1: and HBO documentary backing this, and he's really leant into it.

1077
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:48,200
S1: What I thought was interesting was interesting in watching this uh,

1078
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,790
S1: alongside clip is this is a real world that has been, like,

1079
00:49:52,790 --> 00:49:55,760
S1: shot to make you think that it's like a drama

1080
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:57,710
S1: in terms of, like the color grading and the direction

1081
00:49:57,710 --> 00:50:00,230
S1: and the scripting. You're right. There are these moments where

1082
00:50:00,230 --> 00:50:03,350
S1: either they're doing a reconstructions or they've just said, you

1083
00:50:03,350 --> 00:50:05,510
S1: now call this person will have cameras on both of you.

1084
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:08,029
S1: It's very like heavy handed in its storytelling, and that

1085
00:50:08,030 --> 00:50:12,239
S1: way feels very much like the rehearsal. It's just interesting

1086
00:50:12,270 --> 00:50:16,620
S1: to see a show where it is quote unquote, real

1087
00:50:16,620 --> 00:50:20,279
S1: people in a real setting made to look like it's

1088
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,830
S1: a drama. And then you compare it to something like clipped,

1089
00:50:22,830 --> 00:50:27,570
S1: which is a fictional retelling of something that happened that

1090
00:50:27,570 --> 00:50:29,340
S1: is supposed to make you feel like you're watching real

1091
00:50:29,340 --> 00:50:31,860
S1: characters play things out. I don't know whether there's both

1092
00:50:31,860 --> 00:50:33,300
S1: of those things happening at the same time. That just

1093
00:50:33,300 --> 00:50:35,969
S1: made me really appreciate the fact that they weren't going

1094
00:50:35,969 --> 00:50:40,200
S1: for the Louis Theroux like, super gonzo realistic thing. I

1095
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:44,910
S1: haven't really seen a documentary made to look this fake

1096
00:50:44,910 --> 00:50:46,980
S1: and dramatic, if that makes sense. I just thought that

1097
00:50:46,980 --> 00:50:48,570
S1: was like an interesting, interesting move.

1098
00:50:48,570 --> 00:50:51,210
S2: I find it interesting as an object, as a thought experiment,

1099
00:50:51,210 --> 00:50:53,069
S2: but I don't find it enjoyable to watch.

1100
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,919
S3: Yeah, and none of the characters, as Meg mentioned earlier,

1101
00:50:55,950 --> 00:50:58,950
S3: are particularly nice. I just don't think what the documentary

1102
00:50:58,950 --> 00:51:01,500
S3: makers thought was so wow, like, I think they wanted

1103
00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:03,390
S3: us to be like, wow, this is so insane. Here's

1104
00:51:03,390 --> 00:51:07,530
S3: this 86 year old who's named his appendage Leonard, or

1105
00:51:07,530 --> 00:51:08,640
S3: whatever he's called it.

1106
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:09,810
S1: You don't think that's insane?

1107
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,390
S3: Well, I do, but I think they're trying so hard

1108
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:14,190
S3: to make us feel like it's insane. Whereas what I

1109
00:51:14,190 --> 00:51:16,230
S3: want to know is that woman who's doing the dating

1110
00:51:16,380 --> 00:51:19,230
S3: app searching. I want more of her. And you mentioned, like,

1111
00:51:19,230 --> 00:51:20,970
S3: there's not enough role playing. I want to see them

1112
00:51:20,969 --> 00:51:22,860
S3: doing more of their roles in the fair. I want

1113
00:51:22,860 --> 00:51:25,980
S3: to understand how that works and the history works more.

1114
00:51:25,980 --> 00:51:28,200
S3: But they didn't give much context. They just went to

1115
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,910
S3: these quite unlikable characters. And yeah, it kind of just

1116
00:51:32,910 --> 00:51:34,080
S3: fell flat for me there.

1117
00:51:34,260 --> 00:51:37,229
S1: So we've all seen the first episode. There's a three

1118
00:51:37,230 --> 00:51:39,719
S1: part series on binge. Do you think you will at

1119
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,090
S1: least finish the series? You guys just like that didn't

1120
00:51:42,090 --> 00:51:43,500
S1: hit for me. I'm done.

1121
00:51:44,170 --> 00:51:46,629
S3: I've watched two apps. I will watch the third just

1122
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:49,690
S3: so I can maintain my level of frustration about the show. Like,

1123
00:51:49,690 --> 00:51:51,190
S3: I don't want to be. I don't want to risk.

1124
00:51:51,190 --> 00:51:54,520
S3: I don't want to risk not pre-empting your response to

1125
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,380
S3: me if I haven't seen the third one. So I

1126
00:51:56,380 --> 00:51:57,610
S3: will continue on.

1127
00:51:57,850 --> 00:51:59,830
S2: What about you? I've only watched the first, so based

1128
00:51:59,830 --> 00:52:01,570
S2: on Mel's review, I'm going to tap out now.

1129
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:02,710
S5: Yeah, yeah.

1130
00:52:02,710 --> 00:52:04,299
S3: I think we're on the same page with this one.

1131
00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:05,799
S1: Yeah, I think I might make it to the end

1132
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:07,629
S1: and it'll be interesting to check in with you, Mel,

1133
00:52:07,630 --> 00:52:10,870
S1: whether or not any of your, uh, views have shifted. But,

1134
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:13,569
S1: you know, that's great thing about criticism and talking to

1135
00:52:13,570 --> 00:52:15,730
S1: smart people is we don't have to agree.

1136
00:52:16,380 --> 00:52:18,060
S3: We don't. It's open discussion.

1137
00:52:18,060 --> 00:52:18,540
S5: Here.

1138
00:52:20,219 --> 00:52:21,420
S1: Sounds like you got a gun to your head.

1139
00:52:21,420 --> 00:52:21,930
S5: When I said.

1140
00:52:23,190 --> 00:52:25,410
S1: I think Thomas would have liked it. Just for the record.

1141
00:52:25,739 --> 00:52:27,750
S3: Ah, I don't know. I think it might be a

1142
00:52:27,750 --> 00:52:30,600
S3: bit too, um, a bit too much for him.

1143
00:52:32,010 --> 00:52:37,080
S5: Wow. Not intellectually. Intellectually, yeah. No. Just one too many.

1144
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,609
S1: Characters for him to keep a track of with his.

1145
00:52:38,610 --> 00:52:39,150
S5: Notepad.

1146
00:52:39,180 --> 00:52:42,360
S3: I feel like he might find it annoying, though. You think? Well, yeah.

1147
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:43,860
S3: I mean, I can actually see both of you going

1148
00:52:43,860 --> 00:52:44,970
S3: to the fair as well, so.

1149
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:47,550
S1: Well, yeah. I mean, maybe that's a fun thing that

1150
00:52:47,550 --> 00:52:49,140
S1: we can all commit to is let's all try to

1151
00:52:49,140 --> 00:52:50,549
S1: get to a Renaissance fair.

1152
00:52:50,550 --> 00:52:51,990
S2: I'd much rather do that. Yeah.

1153
00:52:52,260 --> 00:52:53,940
S3: Um, when I was in primary school, they sent us

1154
00:52:53,940 --> 00:52:55,770
S3: to the. I don't know if it still exists, but there's, like,

1155
00:52:55,770 --> 00:52:58,260
S3: a colonial village in New South Wales where you go and.

1156
00:52:58,380 --> 00:52:58,830
S3: Old Sydney.

1157
00:52:58,830 --> 00:53:00,990
S1: Town. I don't think that exists anymore. Yeah, we went.

1158
00:53:00,989 --> 00:53:01,770
S5: To that too, for good.

1159
00:53:01,770 --> 00:53:04,380
S3: Reason. And I, I enjoyed being like a milkmaid for

1160
00:53:04,380 --> 00:53:05,669
S3: the day, so I don't know.

1161
00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:07,110
S5: I'm sure it was pretty.

1162
00:53:07,110 --> 00:53:09,900
S1: Good back then. If you had your skin tone. Mel.

1163
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:11,489
S5: Yeah. It doesn't feel.

1164
00:53:11,489 --> 00:53:14,700
S3: Like something that would have aged well. So, uh, goodbye,

1165
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:15,780
S3: old Sydney Town. Yeah.

1166
00:53:15,780 --> 00:53:19,020
S1: What were the, uh, kind of social structures like in

1167
00:53:19,020 --> 00:53:21,600
S1: medieval towns? Probably not. Not great for women. Not great

1168
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,250
S1: for people like me, I imagine.

1169
00:53:23,250 --> 00:53:23,580
S5: Yeah.

1170
00:53:23,580 --> 00:53:24,270
S2: I don't think so.

1171
00:53:24,270 --> 00:53:27,330
S3: Yeah. I think we would have struggled. But it feels

1172
00:53:27,330 --> 00:53:29,700
S3: like from this show at least we can take away that,

1173
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:32,580
S3: you know, being an elephant trainer or making whatever that

1174
00:53:32,580 --> 00:53:34,859
S3: corn guy makes or like solid rolls, the.

1175
00:53:34,860 --> 00:53:38,070
S1: Kettle corn guy. Um. All right. Well, we are on

1176
00:53:38,070 --> 00:53:41,040
S1: to our regular Impress Your Friends segment where we share

1177
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,160
S1: something we watched, read, listen to, or otherwise consumed in

1178
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,939
S1: the world of culture. Meg, because you're the special guest,

1179
00:53:47,940 --> 00:53:49,830
S1: you get to go first. What have you got for us?

1180
00:53:49,830 --> 00:53:54,299
S2: Thank you. Um, my recommendation is Elsbeth, which is a

1181
00:53:54,300 --> 00:53:57,390
S2: show I reckon zero people have heard of.

1182
00:53:57,390 --> 00:53:59,069
S5: I've heard of it. I've heard of it. Great.

1183
00:53:59,910 --> 00:54:02,609
S2: Um, so it is, uh, it's just had its season

1184
00:54:02,610 --> 00:54:05,400
S2: finale on Paramount Plus. The entire first season is up

1185
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,970
S2: for streaming now. Um, it's a spin off of a

1186
00:54:08,969 --> 00:54:12,210
S2: character from The Good Wife and The Good Fight.

1187
00:54:12,510 --> 00:54:14,730
S1: Two of the best and most underrated shows of, like,

1188
00:54:14,730 --> 00:54:14,940
S1: the past.

1189
00:54:15,210 --> 00:54:17,399
S2: Which is why I think no one has watched the show.

1190
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,620
S3: And you're famously a huge fan of those, aren't you?

1191
00:54:19,620 --> 00:54:24,000
S2: I am, and I only just watched this this week. Um,

1192
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,930
S2: it follows a character called Elsbeth Tascioni, who is a

1193
00:54:27,930 --> 00:54:31,500
S2: Chicago defense attorney. Uh, she had kind of bit roles

1194
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:35,580
S2: in the prior two shows as this kind of zany, uh,

1195
00:54:35,580 --> 00:54:39,210
S2: eccentric lawyer who would come in and people would underestimate

1196
00:54:39,210 --> 00:54:41,730
S2: all the time because she's wearing, like, 500 floral prints

1197
00:54:41,730 --> 00:54:45,480
S2: and carrying, like, a velvet bag and saying silly girly things.

1198
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,609
S2: And then she'll solve the case and get some guy

1199
00:54:47,610 --> 00:54:50,910
S2: off for murder. Um, that's pretty much the premise of

1200
00:54:50,910 --> 00:54:54,120
S2: the new show. So it follows just her in New

1201
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:58,140
S2: York instead of Chicago this time, and she is essentially

1202
00:54:58,140 --> 00:55:02,130
S2: following around the NYPD as, uh, the the police of

1203
00:55:02,130 --> 00:55:05,520
S2: the police. She's like a witness to them doing their cases.

1204
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,880
S2: And it's kind of like a Columbo of style procedural

1205
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,680
S2: where she is solving murders before the police or fixing

1206
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,800
S2: the mistakes that they make. And it's such a fun

1207
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,440
S2: format that you don't see as much anymore. Obviously, we

1208
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,989
S2: saw it with Russian Doll that was so successful and

1209
00:55:21,989 --> 00:55:24,450
S2: so fun. This is a different tone than that. It's

1210
00:55:24,450 --> 00:55:27,839
S2: a lot lighter, fun, frothy. She's such a silly character

1211
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,610
S2: that you kind of just get to follow her having

1212
00:55:29,610 --> 00:55:33,330
S2: a fun time in NYC each week. There's different characters

1213
00:55:33,330 --> 00:55:35,910
S2: who come on. Jane Krakowski from 30 Rock has a

1214
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:39,000
S2: bit as this New York realtor who's, like, selling apartments

1215
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,900
S2: to Oprah and, um, Jesse Tyler Ferguson from Modern Family

1216
00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:46,410
S2: plays this Andy Cohen type character, um, in a Real

1217
00:55:46,410 --> 00:55:50,669
S2: Housewives murder. And it's called Lavish Ladies. Awesome. Um, yeah,

1218
00:55:50,670 --> 00:55:52,650
S2: it's a lot of fun. And I mean, it's a

1219
00:55:52,650 --> 00:55:55,230
S2: bit strange recommending a show, a fun show about the

1220
00:55:55,230 --> 00:55:58,950
S2: NYPD post, uh, everything. But, I mean, it feels like

1221
00:55:58,950 --> 00:56:02,759
S2: after Brooklyn Nine-Nine, we were like, we've tapped out on that, right? But, uh,

1222
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,160
S2: I kind of trust the creators of this show enough

1223
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,620
S2: to find that balance. Even in just the first couple

1224
00:56:07,620 --> 00:56:11,010
S2: of episodes, there's hints that it's not, as you know,

1225
00:56:11,010 --> 00:56:13,680
S2: she's there to help the cops. There's there's things that

1226
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:17,160
S2: she's investigating within the cops as well. Um, and yeah,

1227
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,890
S2: I just trust their judgment so much as The Good

1228
00:56:19,890 --> 00:56:21,810
S2: Wife and The Good Fight were so good on these issues.

1229
00:56:21,810 --> 00:56:24,690
S1: And so is it, like, political in the way that

1230
00:56:24,690 --> 00:56:27,239
S1: those shows are as well, or a bit less.

1231
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:27,840
S5: So it's.

1232
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,710
S2: Less so it feels very fun and frothy, as I said.

1233
00:56:31,710 --> 00:56:36,690
S2: But I think there are without spoilers, um, some questions

1234
00:56:36,690 --> 00:56:39,270
S2: that get asked down the line. Okay. Um, and that's,

1235
00:56:39,270 --> 00:56:42,060
S2: you know, how the good fight functioned as well. In particular,

1236
00:56:42,060 --> 00:56:44,880
S2: it started as a bit of a, you know, workplace

1237
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,390
S2: procedural show about a black law firm. And then as

1238
00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:51,660
S2: the Trump presidency rolled on, it became something very different.

1239
00:56:51,660 --> 00:56:51,900
S2: By the.

1240
00:56:51,900 --> 00:56:54,810
S1: End, it just became a completely insane reaction to.

1241
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,170
S2: America, all about the rise of fascism and white nationalism.

1242
00:56:58,170 --> 00:57:02,460
S2: And suddenly Christine Baranski was tripping acid every day. Um,

1243
00:57:02,460 --> 00:57:03,810
S2: I don't know if that's how this show is going

1244
00:57:03,810 --> 00:57:05,730
S2: to end up, but for the moment, it's a lot

1245
00:57:05,730 --> 00:57:07,620
S2: of fun. It's kind of like an only murders in

1246
00:57:07,620 --> 00:57:10,650
S2: the building type vibe, like across with that, an SVU.

1247
00:57:11,100 --> 00:57:12,600
S1: I mean, everything you're saying is making me want to

1248
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,370
S1: watch it, but I mean, to your point, I am

1249
00:57:14,370 --> 00:57:16,720
S1: so in the bag for. The good fight, and I

1250
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,150
S1: haven't gotten around to watching this yet, but thank you

1251
00:57:19,150 --> 00:57:22,690
S1: for reminding me that it exists. Paramount plus, you know,

1252
00:57:22,690 --> 00:57:27,430
S1: for the 17 of you that have it. Um, uh,

1253
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:30,730
S1: mine is also a TV show set in New York City.

1254
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,540
S1: Do you guys know Julio Torres, who's a writer on SNL?

1255
00:57:34,570 --> 00:57:36,730
S1: I was not really across their work, but they've made

1256
00:57:36,730 --> 00:57:38,710
S1: a couple of shows, and they had a film that

1257
00:57:38,710 --> 00:57:41,919
S1: came out last year, this is on binge. It's, uh,

1258
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:47,320
S1: called Fantasmas, and it's executive produced by Emma Stone. And

1259
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,140
S1: this is a completely insane show. So there's like a

1260
00:57:50,140 --> 00:57:52,270
S1: bit of a plot to this. Julio Torres is just

1261
00:57:52,270 --> 00:57:55,720
S1: like a guy in New York who goes to a

1262
00:57:55,720 --> 00:58:00,760
S1: jewelry store one day, buys an gold oyster earring, loses

1263
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,590
S1: it at the club that night, and goes on this

1264
00:58:02,590 --> 00:58:06,040
S1: like crazy nighttime adventure throughout New York City to try

1265
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:08,410
S1: to find it and meets all these crazy characters along

1266
00:58:08,410 --> 00:58:11,500
S1: the way. Kind of like Scorsese's After Hours. Um, but

1267
00:58:11,500 --> 00:58:17,350
S1: it's also a very fantastical dream. Like show where he

1268
00:58:17,350 --> 00:58:21,100
S1: watches these TV shows within the show, and he meets

1269
00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:23,020
S1: his characters, and it becomes like a bit of a

1270
00:58:23,020 --> 00:58:26,830
S1: sketch comedy, like there's a sketch where Paul Dano plays

1271
00:58:26,830 --> 00:58:29,650
S1: the dad in that 80 show. Alf, you know, with

1272
00:58:29,650 --> 00:58:33,850
S1: the like, puppet alien. Except in this version, Paul Dano

1273
00:58:33,850 --> 00:58:37,390
S1: really wants to fuck Alf, and the drama that that

1274
00:58:37,390 --> 00:58:40,090
S1: then creates in his family is, like, so funny and

1275
00:58:40,090 --> 00:58:43,690
S1: so weird. It's a really hard show to describe, but

1276
00:58:43,690 --> 00:58:46,390
S1: I promise you it's like very funny, it's very sharp

1277
00:58:46,390 --> 00:58:50,230
S1: and there's heaps of amazing, like, guest stars throughout it. Um,

1278
00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:53,830
S1: Steve Buscemi plays the letter Q, who's very upset about

1279
00:58:53,830 --> 00:58:56,320
S1: where they come in the order of the alphabet, which

1280
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,480
S1: I never thought about before, which makes sense. It's like

1281
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,270
S1: Q should be done with like the X's and the Z's.

1282
00:59:01,270 --> 00:59:04,870
S1: What is it doing in between, like the P's and

1283
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:07,000
S1: the R's and the S's? It doesn't really make sense anyway.

1284
00:59:07,030 --> 00:59:10,480
S1: Steve Buscemi really has a fun bit about that. Um,

1285
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,670
S1: this is a really fun show. Uh, and I think

1286
00:59:12,670 --> 00:59:15,250
S1: it's flying a little bit under the radar because Julio

1287
00:59:15,250 --> 00:59:18,280
S1: Torres isn't that well known. But I love that Emma

1288
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,940
S1: Stone is just involved in all these, like, crazy, crazy

1289
00:59:21,940 --> 00:59:24,250
S1: TV projects at the moment. So check it out. It's

1290
00:59:24,250 --> 00:59:24,940
S1: on binge.

1291
00:59:24,940 --> 00:59:27,730
S3: Yes, these are both great suggestions, which I will, uh,

1292
00:59:27,730 --> 00:59:30,250
S3: definitely watch. Um, it feels like a good kind of

1293
00:59:30,250 --> 00:59:32,950
S3: something to turn to once we've moved past Ren Faire.

1294
00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:34,300
S5: Um, um, and.

1295
00:59:34,300 --> 00:59:37,390
S1: Speaking of good suggestions, Mel, why don't you round this out?

1296
00:59:37,390 --> 00:59:40,210
S3: Well, mine, fittingly, kind of seems to stick with the

1297
00:59:40,210 --> 00:59:43,780
S3: theme of the episode. It is sociopath a memoir, um,

1298
00:59:43,780 --> 00:59:46,960
S3: which is written by Patrick Gagner, and it's about a

1299
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:51,040
S3: woman who, when she is younger, starts to discover that

1300
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:54,250
S3: she doesn't seem to interact with others or experience emotions

1301
00:59:54,250 --> 00:59:58,210
S3: the way, um, her friends and family do. And she

1302
00:59:58,210 --> 01:00:01,870
S3: acts out quite consistently as a young person. She stabs

1303
01:00:01,870 --> 01:00:05,110
S3: her girl with with a pencil in her head. She's

1304
01:00:05,110 --> 01:00:07,780
S3: kind of choking kittens. All the things you might traditionally

1305
01:00:07,780 --> 01:00:12,370
S3: associate with quote unquote, um, sociopathic behavior. Um, as she

1306
01:00:12,370 --> 01:00:15,280
S3: gets older, she starts a psychology degree and she starts

1307
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,340
S3: to kind of self-diagnose as a sociopath. But her story

1308
01:00:18,340 --> 01:00:21,850
S3: is really interesting. But more than that, the kind of

1309
01:00:21,850 --> 01:00:26,200
S3: framework around diagnosing people as sociopaths, which is not actually

1310
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:31,240
S3: a medical condition, psychopathy, the kind of misunderstanding of these

1311
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,400
S3: terms and how it's played out in popular culture, and

1312
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,820
S3: then actually in treatment of people who experience emotions in

1313
01:00:36,820 --> 01:00:39,100
S3: this way is really interesting. And it's kind of an

1314
01:00:39,100 --> 01:00:42,730
S3: added layer to her personal story of coming to terms

1315
01:00:42,730 --> 01:00:45,220
S3: with it and managing it. It's a really interesting read. Um,

1316
01:00:45,220 --> 01:00:48,400
S3: one of my best friends is a clinical psychologist, and

1317
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,210
S3: she works with children who have callous, unemotional traits. And

1318
01:00:52,210 --> 01:00:55,270
S3: so I've just been texting her the entire time being like,

1319
01:00:55,270 --> 01:00:57,430
S3: is this really how you would do it? Like, is

1320
01:00:57,430 --> 01:00:59,860
S3: this really what happens? So, um, yeah, it's if you

1321
01:00:59,860 --> 01:01:01,150
S3: like medical memoirs.

1322
01:01:01,150 --> 01:01:02,560
S2: What did she say? Did it check out?

1323
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,140
S3: Well, now there's apparently a lot of chat about this

1324
01:01:05,140 --> 01:01:09,280
S3: author who is a self-professed psychopath and a self-professed liar.

1325
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,650
S3: And no one can find her PhD because she is

1326
01:01:11,650 --> 01:01:14,440
S3: meant to be a doctorate. Um, so everyone's gone down

1327
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,720
S3: the the on the Reddit threads are all going wild.

1328
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,120
S3: We can't find a published article that she's done. There's

1329
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,550
S3: no record of the PhD. So it's kind of spitting

1330
01:01:21,550 --> 01:01:24,370
S3: out of out of the page as well. So, um, yeah,

1331
01:01:24,370 --> 01:01:25,570
S3: it's a it's a good read.

1332
01:01:25,570 --> 01:01:27,130
S1: That's very exciting. And you're right, I feel like my

1333
01:01:27,130 --> 01:01:30,580
S1: entire conception of what a sociopath or a psychopath is,

1334
01:01:30,580 --> 01:01:33,190
S1: is just based on movies and like, what they tell

1335
01:01:33,190 --> 01:01:36,280
S1: me and, like, movies are probably wrong sometimes with things.

1336
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:38,740
S3: Yeah, that's the thing. Like, people often use the terms

1337
01:01:38,740 --> 01:01:43,720
S3: interchangeably and they've got different sets. And again, sociopath isn't

1338
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,330
S3: really a label that actual people would apply.

1339
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:49,450
S1: So I'm I'm more of a sociopath or a psychopath.

1340
01:01:49,450 --> 01:01:50,260
S1: Would you say.

1341
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:53,620
S3: Uh, probably a psychopath? I think a.

1342
01:01:53,620 --> 01:01:55,510
S1: Psychopathic question to ask, isn't it?

1343
01:01:55,690 --> 01:02:00,190
S3: Well, no. Yeah. And exactly a sociopath maybe wouldn't question,

1344
01:02:00,190 --> 01:02:03,220
S3: but a psychopath kind of knows what's going on but

1345
01:02:03,220 --> 01:02:06,190
S3: chooses to do it anyway. So you're probably the worst one.

1346
01:02:06,190 --> 01:02:07,060
S5: That is a great.

1347
01:02:07,570 --> 01:02:11,890
S1: Great way to end this wacky podcast. Um, Mel, thanks

1348
01:02:11,890 --> 01:02:12,730
S1: so much.

1349
01:02:12,730 --> 01:02:14,080
S3: Thank you for not calling me Meg.

1350
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:15,490
S5: Meg.

1351
01:02:15,850 --> 01:02:17,350
S1: Great to have you on. Thanks so much.

1352
01:02:17,380 --> 01:02:18,250
S2: Thanks for having me.

1353
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:18,970
S1: See you guys.

1354
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:19,990
S5: Bye.

1355
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,669
S1: This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.

1356
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:29,160
S1: If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,

1357
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,680
S1: make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app.

1358
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,320
S1: Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode

1359
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,260
S1: with a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week!