1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,240 S1: Go to any family or professional gathering these days, and 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:09,479 S1: there's a good chance you'll be in a room with 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,560 S1: someone who's used medicinal cannabis for anxiety, physical pain, or 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,880 S1: hundreds of other conditions that have been treated legally with 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,440 S1: the product for the last ten years. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,680 S1: and you're listening to Morning Edition. From The Age and 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,360 S1: The Sydney Morning Herald today, health reporter Angus Thompson on 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,200 S1: the Australian researchers who have found that there is no 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:38,560 S1: evidence that medicinal cannabis is effective at treating anxiety, depression 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,520 S1: and PTSD and those who are angry at the result. 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:49,440 S1: It's March the 18th. Okay, Angus, can you just start 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,200 S1: off by telling us how many medical conditions are people 13 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,440 S1: using cannabis to treat? And has this been increasingly popular 14 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,530 S1: over the years? You know, like how how are people 15 00:01:00,530 --> 00:01:01,090 S1: using this? 16 00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:05,850 S2: Yeah, well, Sam, it's a milestone year for medicinal cannabis 17 00:01:05,890 --> 00:01:08,970 S2: in Australia. It's been ten years since it was legalized 18 00:01:08,970 --> 00:01:10,890 S2: for medicinal and scientific use. 19 00:01:12,370 --> 00:01:15,290 S3: It's been a long road. But from March next year, 20 00:01:15,290 --> 00:01:18,290 S3: doctors can legally prescribe medicinal cannabis. 21 00:01:18,569 --> 00:01:23,050 S4: This is a process and a product that we need 22 00:01:23,050 --> 00:01:26,570 S4: to bring to the Australian people. Turnbull government is proposing 23 00:01:26,610 --> 00:01:29,970 S4: to allow patients and their doctor access to a safe, 24 00:01:30,290 --> 00:01:34,770 S4: legal and reliable supply of medical cannabis. Medicinal cannabis products. 25 00:01:34,810 --> 00:01:38,530 S4: Today's legislation has been described as a landmark bill and 26 00:01:38,530 --> 00:01:41,729 S4: the missing piece for patients and doctors around Australia. 27 00:01:47,330 --> 00:01:50,970 S2: And since then, we've seen more and more Australians legally 28 00:01:50,970 --> 00:01:56,170 S2: use medicinal cannabis through these two schemes, which basically allow 29 00:01:56,210 --> 00:02:00,020 S2: doctors to prescribe products that haven't gone through the rigorous 30 00:02:00,020 --> 00:02:04,620 S2: testing needed to be classified as an approved medicine, and 31 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:08,660 S2: doctors have to record the reasons why they prescribe medicinal cannabis. 32 00:02:09,220 --> 00:02:12,940 S2: And so we know that there are more than 250 33 00:02:12,980 --> 00:02:17,460 S2: health conditions that people are using cannabis to treat. And 34 00:02:17,460 --> 00:02:22,339 S2: some of the most common ones are chronic pain, anxiety, insomnia, 35 00:02:22,580 --> 00:02:24,900 S2: and a bunch of other mental health conditions such as 36 00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:26,740 S2: depression and PTSD. 37 00:02:27,419 --> 00:02:29,740 S1: That is so fascinating. And do we know whether the 38 00:02:29,740 --> 00:02:33,100 S1: majority of people who are using cannabis to treat various conditions, 39 00:02:33,139 --> 00:02:37,420 S1: are they mostly self-prescribing, or are they actually going to 40 00:02:37,460 --> 00:02:38,900 S1: doctors to get it? 41 00:02:39,780 --> 00:02:43,500 S2: They're going to doctors. I mean, people self-medicating with cannabis 42 00:02:43,540 --> 00:02:47,980 S2: to treat all sorts of conditions isn't new. It's obviously 43 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:50,460 S2: an ancient plant. It's been around for a very long 44 00:02:50,500 --> 00:02:52,859 S2: time and humans have been using it for a very 45 00:02:52,860 --> 00:02:55,579 S2: long time. The difference now is that we actually have 46 00:02:55,580 --> 00:02:59,430 S2: numbers that show how many people are using it and 47 00:02:59,430 --> 00:03:03,190 S2: why they're using it. The other difference is these products 48 00:03:03,190 --> 00:03:05,990 S2: are really different from the cannabis you might get off 49 00:03:05,990 --> 00:03:10,269 S2: the street. So these are grown products. They're grown by 50 00:03:10,270 --> 00:03:13,910 S2: experts and backed by big companies that have millions of 51 00:03:13,910 --> 00:03:18,670 S2: dollars to put into research and development to essentially produce 52 00:03:18,950 --> 00:03:22,510 S2: high quality and high strength cannabis products. And there's just 53 00:03:22,510 --> 00:03:26,149 S2: a huge range of products out there, whether it's oils 54 00:03:26,150 --> 00:03:29,270 S2: or flowers or creams that you rub. There's so many 55 00:03:29,270 --> 00:03:31,790 S2: ways that people can access this product. 56 00:03:31,950 --> 00:03:34,510 S1: Okay. But you have just written about a new study. 57 00:03:34,510 --> 00:03:38,950 S1: This was just published in Lancet Psychiatry on Tuesday, and 58 00:03:38,950 --> 00:03:41,430 S1: it has thrown, I would say, a pretty big question 59 00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:44,390 S1: mark over the use of cannabis to treat various ailments. 60 00:03:44,430 --> 00:03:46,870 S1: So tell us about this study. What did it say 61 00:03:48,670 --> 00:03:49,350 S1: this study? 62 00:03:49,390 --> 00:03:52,390 S2: Sam was from researchers at the University of Sydney, and 63 00:03:52,390 --> 00:03:56,270 S2: it looked at more than 50 randomized controlled trials testing 64 00:03:56,310 --> 00:04:00,120 S2: the effectiveness of medicinal cannabis to treat mental health and 65 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:06,560 S2: substance use disorders specifically. Uh, these studies involved about 2500 participants. 66 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,760 S2: So quite a, quite a large group. And it looked 67 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:14,040 S2: at a range of conditions. So the review found no 68 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,640 S2: evidence that cannabis was effective for treating anxiety, depression and 69 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,080 S2: post-traumatic stress disorder, PTSD. There was some evidence that cannabis 70 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,920 S2: could help reduce tic severity for people with Tourette's syndrome. Uh, 71 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,839 S2: increase sleep time for people with insomnia, and help manage 72 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:36,720 S2: autism traits in people with cocaine use disorder. Cannabis actually 73 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:42,600 S2: increased cravings. But overall, the researchers cautioned that the quality 74 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,560 S2: of studies included in the review was quite low, so 75 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,479 S2: we can't exactly draw conclusive evidence from this study. But 76 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,440 S2: it does add to the evidence and the constantly updated 77 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,529 S2: evidence that we need perhaps more research into these before 78 00:04:59,650 --> 00:05:03,010 S2: we can say whether or not they are effective. At 79 00:05:03,010 --> 00:05:03,969 S2: a population level. 80 00:05:04,850 --> 00:05:07,250 S1: And so I've got to ask you, Angus, is this 81 00:05:07,250 --> 00:05:11,170 S1: finding a surprising and B going to anger anyone? 82 00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:16,210 S2: It's not particularly surprising or new. I think these kind 83 00:05:16,210 --> 00:05:20,890 S2: of systematic reviews of medicinal cannabis studies have been around, 84 00:05:20,890 --> 00:05:24,289 S2: and there's been many of them for many years. This 85 00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:26,690 S2: study was somewhat unique in the sense that it looked 86 00:05:26,690 --> 00:05:30,450 S2: at a range of mental health and substance use conditions, 87 00:05:30,970 --> 00:05:33,770 S2: but it again, highlights a really important point, which is 88 00:05:33,770 --> 00:05:36,890 S2: that there is just not much research into medicinal cannabis, 89 00:05:36,930 --> 00:05:40,409 S2: which is somewhat surprising given it has been legalised and 90 00:05:40,410 --> 00:05:44,570 S2: regulated for decades in some countries, I think. California first 91 00:05:44,770 --> 00:05:49,610 S2: legalized medicinal marijuana in the 90s, so it has been 92 00:05:49,610 --> 00:05:52,010 S2: around for a while, and yet there's just not much 93 00:05:52,010 --> 00:05:58,179 S2: research into. Especially these mental health conditions, which make up 94 00:05:58,180 --> 00:06:02,420 S2: such a large proportion of the reasons why it's being prescribed. 95 00:06:02,779 --> 00:06:06,260 S2: In terms of who is angry, I think this kind 96 00:06:06,260 --> 00:06:09,780 S2: of study would really frustrate those people out there who 97 00:06:09,820 --> 00:06:14,060 S2: have found medicinal cannabis to be useful, to treat their conditions. 98 00:06:14,460 --> 00:06:17,740 S2: And the authors have acknowledged that people do experience benefits 99 00:06:17,740 --> 00:06:21,580 S2: from them, but for whatever reason, we just aren't seeing 100 00:06:21,580 --> 00:06:26,100 S2: that bearing out in population wide gold standard clinical trials. 101 00:06:26,779 --> 00:06:30,300 S2: There was also some frustration among experts that I spoke to, 102 00:06:30,620 --> 00:06:34,260 S2: that these types of reviews distract from what they think 103 00:06:34,260 --> 00:06:38,020 S2: we should be doing, which is funding new clinical trials 104 00:06:38,020 --> 00:06:40,860 S2: to understand more about how these drugs work, rather than 105 00:06:40,860 --> 00:06:44,500 S2: looking at trials that have been around for years. 106 00:06:45,500 --> 00:06:46,420 S1: After the break. 107 00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:51,460 S2: Well, I think the difficulty with having a lack of research, Sam, 108 00:06:51,460 --> 00:06:55,140 S2: is that we don't know for sure whether what the 109 00:06:55,270 --> 00:07:00,390 S2: harms could be. There is perhaps less risk to it, 110 00:07:00,390 --> 00:07:03,990 S2: but I don't want to say there's no harm involved, 111 00:07:03,990 --> 00:07:07,510 S2: because there could be really serious harms that we don't 112 00:07:07,510 --> 00:07:09,750 S2: know about because it hasn't been studied. 113 00:07:15,630 --> 00:07:18,990 S1: And another really fascinating part of the feature that you've 114 00:07:18,990 --> 00:07:22,350 S1: just written about this was a young father who you 115 00:07:22,350 --> 00:07:26,510 S1: spoke to. He's living in Darwin, and he is an example, 116 00:07:26,510 --> 00:07:29,430 S1: I guess, of what can go wrong if you become 117 00:07:29,430 --> 00:07:33,230 S1: a habitual cannabis user. So tell us about his experience. 118 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:37,830 S2: That's right. So I spoke to Daniel Yakel. He's a 119 00:07:37,830 --> 00:07:41,550 S2: young dad living in Darwin, and he was prescribed medicinal 120 00:07:41,550 --> 00:07:45,430 S2: cannabis about two years ago to help him deal with 121 00:07:45,430 --> 00:07:49,950 S2: anxiety and depression following a relationship breakdown. So he had 122 00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:54,230 S2: smoked marijuana recreationally in the past, but he found himself 123 00:07:54,230 --> 00:07:58,120 S2: going more reliant on the legal product, which was far 124 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,840 S2: more potent than what he'd dealt with before. And he said, 125 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,200 S2: you know, any time he wasn't at work, he'd be 126 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,600 S2: using it. And at the peak, he was consuming 60g 127 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,480 S2: of cannabis a month, which is quite a large amount. 128 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,680 S2: He was spending more on his cannabis prescription per week 129 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,920 S2: than his $300 rent. So the cost and the realization 130 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,320 S2: that he was slipping into dependency really was, were the 131 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,200 S2: things that he that motivated him to get off it. 132 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,720 S2: And he has been off cannabis now for four months. 133 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,080 S2: He said he's found his mental health has improved, his 134 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,880 S2: emotions are more regulated, and he's getting better quality sleep 135 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,960 S2: and actually, interestingly, dreaming vividly. Apparently, he was telling me 136 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,760 S2: that when you use cannabis regularly, you don't dream as much. 137 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,320 S2: But he's he's found that his dreams are coming back 138 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,970 S2: and more more vivid. And he said that it's probably 139 00:08:54,970 --> 00:08:58,530 S2: one of the best decisions he's ever made. So he's 140 00:08:58,530 --> 00:09:01,610 S2: one out of many people who use it. Obviously, there 141 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:06,130 S2: is a spectrum of people that use it and they 142 00:09:06,130 --> 00:09:09,170 S2: all experience different things, but that was one case where 143 00:09:09,170 --> 00:09:12,370 S2: he really benefited from coming off it and had noticed 144 00:09:12,370 --> 00:09:17,130 S2: that he was getting an addiction growing dependent on this 145 00:09:17,130 --> 00:09:18,210 S2: particular product. 146 00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:21,770 S1: Which is so interesting, given that you said before that, 147 00:09:21,809 --> 00:09:25,210 S1: you know, people use cannabis to treat substance abuse. Anyway, 148 00:09:25,210 --> 00:09:27,250 S1: that's just a fascinating element to this. But I really 149 00:09:27,250 --> 00:09:29,850 S1: want to ask you, like, how is it that there 150 00:09:29,850 --> 00:09:33,050 S1: have been very few trials in the safety and effectiveness 151 00:09:33,050 --> 00:09:35,570 S1: of cannabis? And yet at the same time, we've got 152 00:09:35,570 --> 00:09:39,370 S1: more and more Australians legally using medicinal cannabis through what 153 00:09:39,370 --> 00:09:43,770 S1: you've spoken about, which is the special access scheme, which 154 00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:48,090 S1: is a pathway that essentially allows doctors to prescribe products 155 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:50,650 S1: that haven't gone through the rigorous testing needed to be 156 00:09:50,650 --> 00:09:54,250 S1: classified as an approved medicine. Like, is this a problem? 157 00:09:55,450 --> 00:09:58,170 S2: Well, there's a couple of things that are quite unique 158 00:09:58,210 --> 00:10:02,530 S2: about medicinal cannabis in Australia. And so it was legalized, 159 00:10:02,850 --> 00:10:05,970 S2: as we said in 2016. And the way that it 160 00:10:05,970 --> 00:10:09,770 S2: has been made accessible to people is through this special 161 00:10:09,770 --> 00:10:16,170 S2: access scheme, which basically allows doctors to prescribe unapproved products. 162 00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:18,730 S2: So these are products that haven't been through really rigorous 163 00:10:18,730 --> 00:10:24,810 S2: clinical trials to people who have a justification for using it. 164 00:10:25,250 --> 00:10:29,490 S2: So through that pathway, hundreds of thousands, almost a million 165 00:10:29,530 --> 00:10:35,050 S2: Australians have been prescribed cannabis. And so that has resulted 166 00:10:35,050 --> 00:10:40,130 S2: in a big industry cropping up around, particularly around telehealth 167 00:10:40,130 --> 00:10:45,530 S2: and these vertically integrated clinics where you go online, you 168 00:10:45,570 --> 00:10:50,650 S2: speak to a doctor, they consult, you recommend medicinal cannabis. 169 00:10:50,970 --> 00:10:55,220 S2: Then that same company distributes you the cannabis and then 170 00:10:55,660 --> 00:10:58,580 S2: you get it mailed to you or, or such. So 171 00:10:59,540 --> 00:11:03,780 S2: that has been a big boon for some of these companies. 172 00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:07,819 S2: And it has also raised questions with regulators about how 173 00:11:07,820 --> 00:11:11,660 S2: to regulate this new industry that is making cannabis so 174 00:11:11,660 --> 00:11:17,100 S2: accessible to Australians. The other thing is that clinical trials 175 00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:21,420 S2: are really, really expensive. I think Ian McGregor, who is 176 00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:25,860 S2: a psychopharmacologist at the University of Sydney. He said these 177 00:11:25,860 --> 00:11:30,980 S2: trials can cost anywhere between 3 to $10 million to do, 178 00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:35,060 S2: and he was saying that there isn't that much incentive 179 00:11:35,059 --> 00:11:39,660 S2: for these companies to invest in these trials because they're 180 00:11:39,660 --> 00:11:44,620 S2: already making money and they're already got quite small margins 181 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:50,940 S2: on prescribing medicinal cannabis to Australians. And it's growing exponentially, almost. 182 00:11:50,980 --> 00:11:54,470 S2: It's tripled in the last four years, so there's not 183 00:11:54,470 --> 00:11:59,270 S2: much financial incentive for the private sector to invest in 184 00:11:59,710 --> 00:12:04,110 S2: these kind of trials. And so that's where he and 185 00:12:04,110 --> 00:12:08,030 S2: others have argued for other people to step in, whether 186 00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:12,150 S2: that's the government or philanthropy. So it's a factor of 187 00:12:12,190 --> 00:12:14,910 S2: two things. It's it's the fact that clinical trials are 188 00:12:14,910 --> 00:12:19,270 S2: really expensive and that there is not a lot of 189 00:12:19,270 --> 00:12:22,190 S2: motivation for people to invest in them. 190 00:12:22,990 --> 00:12:26,550 S1: And you've written that legal cannabis sales have tripled in 191 00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:29,470 S1: Australia in the last four years. But Ian McGregor, who 192 00:12:29,510 --> 00:12:32,750 S1: you've just mentioned, a professor of psychopharmacology, he told you, 193 00:12:33,150 --> 00:12:36,310 S1: you know, that research hasn't kept pace with prescribing rates. 194 00:12:36,309 --> 00:12:39,750 S1: So I'm just wondering how is this affecting treatment outcomes 195 00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:41,150 S1: for patients ultimately? 196 00:12:42,670 --> 00:12:45,710 S2: Well, I think the bottom line is that it doesn't 197 00:12:45,710 --> 00:12:51,680 S2: give people who are prescribed medicinal cannabis the overarching evidence 198 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,160 S2: or confidence that it will work for them. So a 199 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,600 S2: lot of it is their relationship with their doctor, their 200 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,800 S2: sort of process of trial and error and how it 201 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,320 S2: works for them. The good news with these kind of products, 202 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,079 S2: which I think is good to note from this study, 203 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:14,080 S2: the study found that medicinal cannabis products were associated with 204 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,319 S2: a greater risk of adverse events. So these are things 205 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,520 S2: like headaches and nausea. But it wasn't actually it didn't 206 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:27,479 S2: lead to very serious adverse events, things like hospitalizations, psychotic episodes. 207 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,480 S2: So that's comforting to know that these products aren't necessarily 208 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:38,920 S2: unsafe in that sense of, you know, leading to serious outcomes. 209 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:44,319 S2: But it does leave patients and people using these products, 210 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,600 S2: having to fend for themselves a little bit without overarching, 211 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,050 S2: really strong evidence that it is actually effective. 212 00:13:52,410 --> 00:13:54,810 S1: And so is the upshot. Do you think, after looking 213 00:13:54,809 --> 00:13:58,050 S1: into this area, that cannabis is unlikely to really hurt 214 00:13:58,050 --> 00:14:01,770 S1: someone in a serious way like hospitalizing them, and therefore, 215 00:14:01,770 --> 00:14:05,050 S1: even if it's not particularly effective to treat, say, depression 216 00:14:05,050 --> 00:14:08,890 S1: or PTSD or anorexia or a number of the conditions 217 00:14:08,890 --> 00:14:11,570 S1: that it's being sort of prescribed for that really, people 218 00:14:11,570 --> 00:14:14,490 S1: are unlikely to get hurt and at best, maybe there'll 219 00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:15,770 S1: be a placebo effect. 220 00:14:16,370 --> 00:14:21,610 S2: Well, I think the difficulty with having a lack of research, Sam, 221 00:14:21,610 --> 00:14:25,330 S2: is that we don't know for sure whether what the 222 00:14:25,330 --> 00:14:30,530 S2: harms could be, especially when you look over a population level. 223 00:14:31,010 --> 00:14:35,210 S2: Certainly there are drugs in the literature. Obviously, cannabis has 224 00:14:35,250 --> 00:14:39,290 S2: been legal for medicinal use for a relatively short period, 225 00:14:39,490 --> 00:14:42,930 S2: but there has been a lot of studies of drug 226 00:14:42,930 --> 00:14:50,860 S2: use recreationally as well. And certainly cannabis. Marijuana is much 227 00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:54,580 S2: lower down that scale of of drugs that harm, which 228 00:14:54,580 --> 00:14:58,500 S2: is a lot. By and large, alcohol and things like 229 00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:05,620 S2: cocaine and methamphetamine. So there is perhaps less risk to it. 230 00:15:05,620 --> 00:15:07,620 S2: But I don't want to say. Yeah. I don't want 231 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:11,780 S2: to say that there's no harm involved because there could 232 00:15:11,780 --> 00:15:15,460 S2: be really serious harms that we don't know about because 233 00:15:15,460 --> 00:15:16,540 S2: it hasn't been studied. 234 00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:19,460 S1: And Angus, just to wrap up, can you tell us 235 00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:22,740 S1: about the draft bill of the New South Wales government 236 00:15:22,780 --> 00:15:25,500 S1: might soon be releasing, which might really have an impact 237 00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:26,300 S1: in this area? 238 00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:30,740 S2: Yeah. So, Sam, this week we're expecting the New South 239 00:15:30,740 --> 00:15:34,300 S2: Wales government to release a draft bill that lays out 240 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:38,740 S2: their plans to amend New South Wales driving laws to 241 00:15:39,020 --> 00:15:44,180 S2: create an exemption for people with medicinal cannabis prescriptions who 242 00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:48,180 S2: aren't impaired while they're driving, obviously, in rural areas of 243 00:15:48,180 --> 00:15:51,430 S2: New South Wales and Australia in general. This is a 244 00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:54,430 S2: big issue because there's a lack of public transport and 245 00:15:54,430 --> 00:15:57,710 S2: people rely on their cars every day. So this is 246 00:15:57,710 --> 00:16:00,350 S2: a really big issue for people. It's also a big 247 00:16:00,350 --> 00:16:04,270 S2: issue for people who might be considering using medicinal cannabis, 248 00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:09,790 S2: who aren't taking that leap because they need to be 249 00:16:09,830 --> 00:16:12,710 S2: able to drive. And so I think all this goes 250 00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:17,470 S2: to the fact that we need really rigorous, evidence based 251 00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:23,350 S2: trials into this medication and whether it works or whether 252 00:16:23,350 --> 00:16:26,750 S2: it doesn't, what conditions it works for and which conditions 253 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:28,670 S2: it might be less effective for. 254 00:16:29,830 --> 00:16:32,910 S1: Well, it's fascinating space on this ten year milestone of 255 00:16:32,910 --> 00:16:36,630 S1: the legalization here. So thank you so much for your time. 256 00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:38,190 S2: Thanks for having me, Sam. 257 00:16:42,710 --> 00:16:46,030 S1: And in other news today with the reserve Bank hiking 258 00:16:46,030 --> 00:16:50,840 S1: interest rates yesterday to 4.1%. New data shows many Australian 259 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:55,120 S1: homeowners prepared for the increase by pouring record amounts into 260 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,880 S1: offset accounts. Four time F1 world champion Max Verstappen says 261 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,720 S1: the new era of formula one racing with 50 over 262 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,880 S1: 50 electric hybrids is not racing and like playing Mario Kart. 263 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:13,840 S1: And last week, Atlassian cut 1600 jobs globally, blaming AI. 264 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,879 S1: White collar workers are watching the AI job carnage, wondering 265 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,719 S1: what jobs are on the chopping block and what jobs 266 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:27,280 S1: have a future. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. 267 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,760 S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are 268 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,600 S1: overseen by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like 269 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,560 S1: our show, follow The Morning Edition and leave a review 270 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,959 S1: for us on Apple or Spotify. Thanks for listening.