S1: Hi there. It's Sam here, your host of the Morning
S1: Edition podcast. I'm coming to you on Tuesday morning, just
S1: after we found out last night that Pope Francis, the
S1: head of the Catholic Church, died at the age of 88. Francis,
S1: who had led the world's 1.3 billion Roman Catholics since 2013,
S1: had been in increasingly poor health and pain. We're republishing
S1: this episode that we recorded in February with former religion
S1: editor at The Age, Barney Schwartz, on the mixed legacy
S1: that Pope Francis has left behind and the impact that
S1: he's had on lives, whether Catholic or not. And so, Barney,
S1: since Pope Francis was elected in 2013, I think it's
S1: fair to say he's been seen as surprisingly liberal by
S1: many people. Can you just tell us a little bit
S1: about this and what stamp he's put on the Catholic Church?
S2: Yes, sir. He was he was meant to be a
S2: caretaker pope when he was elected. He was old and
S2: he was frail and people thought, oh, well, he can
S2: keep a steady ship for 2 or 3 years and
S2: then he'll die and we'll be able to direct the
S2: church more in the way we want. Uh, he lived
S2: on most stubbornly and has used his time to make, uh,
S2: quite significant changes, which in my view, are generally for
S2: the better.
S3: Francis is the first pope from the Americas, the first
S3: of his name, and Jorge.
S4: Mario Bergoglio is his name. He's the former archbishop of
S4: Buenos Aires. 1.2 billion Catholics rejoice as the 266th pope
S4: is chosen.
S5: Buona sera.
S2: He has changed the style of being pope. He has
S2: been much more humble, much more populist. He has been
S2: a much less dogmatic and authoritative pope, and his particular
S2: stance is to listen. He likes to work by synodality,
S2: which means listening to the various groups in the church.
S2: And this has led them to be much more compassionate
S2: and open to groups like the LGBT community.
S6: The Catholic Church is entering a new era after Pope
S6: Francis approved priests to bless same sex couples.
S2: He hasn't changed doctrine, but he has recognized that these
S2: are fully functioning people with all the the religious and
S2: spiritual needs of anybody else. He has been much more
S2: open to women and appointed many to senior positions in
S2: the bureaucracy.
S7: Pope Francis also praised the role of women in the
S7: church as part of his remarks on International Women's Day.
S2: He has been much more sympathetic to divorced Catholics. He
S2: has been just in general, somebody who is more open
S2: to different points of view.
S1: But he has actually had a lot of detractors, too, right?
S1: I mean, those who believe that this pope has undone,
S1: I guess, a lot of long standing teachings.
S2: Yes, this is quite curious. We have to be a
S2: bit nuanced here. He's definitely had detractors. But it's not
S2: just conservatives. He was too conservative for the progressives and
S2: too progressive for the conservatives. For example, the progressives had
S2: high hopes that he would make far more widespread changes
S2: than he did. And the conservatives, of course, as you
S2: point out, are outraged that he's open to things like
S2: the considering the possibility of same sex blessings not for
S2: gay marriages, but in other circumstances. Uh, and they feel
S2: that he's, uh, betraying the Magisterium, which is the collection
S2: of teachings of the Catholic Church.
S1: And I believe Pope Francis has also been the subject
S1: of scandals, too, I think, in particular regarding the protection
S1: of favored clerics who were accused of sexual abuse. Is
S1: that right, Barney?
S2: That is true. He's had quite a mixed record on
S2: sexual abuse. He listened to victims. He brought victims onto
S2: the commission that he set up. But then he didn't
S2: act on their recommendations. He had several resignations from that
S2: committee because they felt they were being stalled. There is
S2: indeed a particularly scandalous, uh, cleric who was a friend
S2: of his, who he seems to have protected half a
S2: dozen times from proper investigation and left him in, uh, ministry,
S2: which is an absolute no, no. If somebody confessed to
S2: to just child sex abuse, they must be laicized. They
S2: must be removed from ministry. He has not done that.
S2: He has, um, he has sent mixed messages. Uh, as
S2: I say, I'm a fan of Francis, but I certainly
S2: don't think he's flawless. And this is one area where
S2: I think he has been, uh, really quite poor sometimes.
S1: And of course, the reason that you and I are
S1: even speaking right now is because Pope Francis has been
S1: on and off over the last few weeks in critical condition.
S1: So just briefly, you know, we are recording this on
S1: Tuesday morning and his health is changing day by day.
S1: But what is the status of his health now?
S2: Well, when I looked online half an hour ago, he
S2: had improved slightly.
S8: There is growing concern for the health of the Pope.
S8: Pope Francis remains in the hospital for a 10th day
S8: in critical condition.
S9: Francis is in a critical condition after suffering a prolonged
S9: respiratory crisis. The 88 year old was hospitalized a week
S9: ago suffering from double pneumonia.
S2: Nobody thinks he is going to come back and and
S2: resume a long standing ministry. He's clearly in his final days,
S2: but he his health has improved slightly from the day
S2: before when he was listed as critical. He he was
S2: breathing a little bit better and able to sit in
S2: his chair and do some work. So, uh, it's all
S2: up in the air. But I'm no doctor, but it
S2: seems to me that he can't go on very much longer.
S1: And, Barney, I really want to turn now to just
S1: how much power and influence the Pope actually has. You know,
S1: I'm thinking about what sort of power he might wield
S1: beyond those who are of the Christian faith. But, you know,
S1: even on the world stage, like, what sort of impact
S1: do the Pope's words and decisions have in the real
S1: world on the ground?
S2: Yes. What a curious question that is. Because. Because the
S2: answer is, as always, um, quite nuanced and quite mixed. Uh,
S2: on one hand, uh, very little influence on on secular
S2: politicians in theory, uh, Stalin famously jibed during World War two.
S2: How many divisions has the pope, uh, when he was
S2: trying to downplay the role of Catholics? Uh, and of course,
S2: the Pope had no standing army. And yet the church,
S2: Christians in general, and Catholics in particular, played a huge
S2: role in the collapse of communism in Poland in the
S2: 1980s and East Germany at the same time. Uh, the Pope, um, uh,
S2: was enormously important to that, especially the Polish Pope John
S2: Paul II. In the case of Poland, and Stalin might
S2: have been eating his words if he'd still been alive.
S2: So there are certainly real world effects within society. There
S2: is certainly a moral influence, uh, which can be really strong.
S2: And we never feel that more strongly than in, uh,
S2: than in Poland. But it is true across the developing world.
S2: Today with Pope Francis as well.
S1: And there is a long history, isn't there, of this
S1: intersection between, you know, what the Pope might say and
S1: political figures? I'm thinking of Pope Pius the 12th, who
S1: very famously failed to denounce Hitler, even though he knew
S1: about the genocide that he was perpetrating. And so it
S1: just makes me wonder, like, of the impact, you know,
S1: had Pope Pius the 12th denounced Hitler, could he have
S1: arguably saved many Jewish lives at that time?
S2: That's a very controversial subject. Uh, several books have been
S2: written about that. The thought is, if there is a
S2: consensus that Pius is trying to save German Catholic lives
S2: by not taking on Hitler too directly. Hitler had, um,
S2: you know, originally, uh, sort of allied himself with the
S2: church very early on, but by the mid 30s he
S2: was denouncing it and moving against it. The Vatican did, uh,
S2: hide many Jews from the Nazis in Italy during World
S2: War two. Uh, was Pacelli or Pius the 12th right?
S2: I can't say. I really can't say. I would have
S2: liked to have done more. I think he might have
S2: influenced the wider world. I think he might have influenced, uh,
S2: England and the United States to accept more Jewish refugees,
S2: for example.
S1: And I really want to ask you about the conclave,
S1: which is the ritual in the Vatican where, you know,
S1: cardinals from all around the world elect a new pope.
S1: And you are particularly well placed to answer this, because
S1: you have covered two conclaves when you were covering religion
S1: at the age. So is it really as political as
S1: the new film conclave makes it appear?
S2: Yes, it is absolutely as political as the film conclave suggests.
S2: Always has been.
S10: The throne is vacant.
S11: The conclave begins now. We're about to choose the most
S11: famous man in the world.
S2: And the conclave themselves are 749 years old this year.
S2: Since the very first popes have been political. Popes used
S2: to be elected by rulers before conclaves. So often, often
S2: European rulers would fight to have the right to influence
S2: and choose the next pope. Just look at the time
S2: of the English Reformation with Henry the Eighth. How the
S2: Pope was influenced by Philip in Spain to go against
S2: King Henry, which led to the Reformation. That was all politics.
S2: It had nothing to do with religion. The Pope has
S2: always been an intensely political figure as well as a
S2: spiritual leader.
S1: And so can you actually tell us how the voting
S1: works in the conclave?
S2: Well, I can tell you a bit, but this is
S2: an amazing thing. I haven't actually been inside the room.
S1: Well, I believe no one else is besides the Cardinals
S1: and those who are actually involved. Yes, it's highly, highly private.
S2: It's highly, highly private. And cardinals are sworn to secrecy
S2: for life after the conclave. But of course, it only
S2: takes a few weeks before there's plenty of off the
S2: record briefings, especially by Italian cardinals, to Italian journalists. Ah, but.
S2: But as I gather, uh, they, they go in, um,
S2: and they do, uh, secret ballot. And if if a
S2: pope has a two thirds majority, then there will be
S2: white smoke which goes out of the Sistine Chapel's roof,
S2: signaling to the crowd that there is a new pope.
S2: And if there's not, there'll be black smoke. So, uh,
S2: there will be maybe several episodes of black smoke before
S2: we get the white. In 2013, when when Bergoglio became
S2: Francis one, I was sitting in my tiny attic room
S2: in a 14th century palace about 100m from the, uh,
S2: Saint Peter's Square, and I heard a big roar from
S2: the crowd. So I rushed to the window, and sure enough,
S2: there was white smoke billowing out of the, uh, of
S2: the Sistine Chapel's chimney. And so I dashed up to the, uh,
S2: to Saint Peter's Square. And I got there in about
S2: 60s and, uh, and it was just a tremendously exciting
S2: and moving place to be at the time.
S1: Do we know any of the particular cardinals who might
S1: be considered to be frontrunners? I guess to be chosen
S1: as the next pope, and whether their political leanings or
S1: interpretation of the faith is conservative or progressive?
S2: Well, as always, there will be candidates from all wings
S2: of the church. This one seems more open than most.
S2: What's different this time is that so many cardinals have
S2: been appointed in such far flung parts of the world,
S2: from so many different countries. Before there were a large
S2: majority or the largest faction was from Italy, and now
S2: their numbers are much reduced. And these cardinals know each
S2: other so little that the College of Cardinals has actually
S2: launched a website to introduce them to each other, so
S2: they can look up the names and learn a bit
S2: about them. Um, which is an interesting example of an
S2: ancient institution using modern means. That website lists 22 people as, uh,
S2: as possible candidates for The Pope. Some of these names
S2: are very familiar from 2013. Uh, there's there's Palin, who's
S2: the secretary of state and has been since Benedict appointed him. Sorry,
S2: since Trump has appointed him. There's the Canadian mark. There's, uh,
S2: Louie from the Philippines. Uh, Robert Farah from Guinea. If so,
S2: if the conclave went really conservative, then Robert Farah or
S2: Raymond Burke from Chicago, who was the leader of the
S2: opposition to Francis throughout his pontificate. They could be possible,
S2: but I don't see that. Uh, George Pell's good friend,
S2: Peter Erdo from Hungary, is a more moderate conservative. If
S2: they go for a more more of a continuation of
S2: of Francis's line, then, uh, Louie from Manila or Matteo Zuppi,
S2: who's the president of the Italian Bishops Conference. They will
S2: be continuation candidates. I suspect a continuation candidate is most
S2: likely because 72% of the voting cardinals were appointed by Francis.
S1: Mhm. And it's so interesting that you say that there is,
S1: you know, significant chance that the next pope will be
S1: sort of a continuation of Pope Francis's vision, I guess,
S1: which has got its progressive sides, because of course, that
S1: next pope is going to be reigning during a tricky
S1: political time. You know, I'm thinking in particular of the
S1: fact that Donald Trump is now American president again and
S1: he is famously quite anti-migrant, anti LGBTQ. He makes decisions
S1: that really go against the environment, which Pope Francis was
S1: also championing, that we treat the environment better. So what
S1: sort of skills do you think the next Pope will
S1: need in this particular political environment?
S2: Well, what Francis, in my view, got right was that
S2: the pastoral role? It is a dogmatic role. He has
S2: to preserve the Magisterium. Uh, but above all, he's looking
S2: after the souls and the interests of 2 billion Catholics
S2: in the world. So I want the next pope to
S2: be resilient, flexible, to understand and honor the Catholic teachings. Um,
S2: some of which, as a Protestant, I don't agree with.
S2: But that's why I won't be Pope. Uh, but I
S2: think he needs to have a light hand. I think
S2: the time at a time like this, you have to
S2: allow people latitude. And that was one thing that Francis
S2: really did. He allowed local churches to govern themselves without
S2: the sort of fell hand of authority, as it happened
S2: before under Benedict, when if a church was seen as
S2: a bit liberal, then it would be dilated to Rome
S2: and disciplined. And Francis didn't encourage that.
S1: And lastly, Barney, just to wrap up, I've got to
S1: ask you how relevant the Pope even is, or even
S1: the role of the church more broadly in the lives
S1: of Australians, especially when, you know, for young people in particular,
S1: many are being absolutely hammered by the cost of living crisis.
S1: You know, their focus would be firmly on how to
S1: afford food, how to make their rent. So is this
S1: even relevant to a lot of people?
S2: Oddly, it's when times are difficult that that religion does
S2: become more relevant. It's booming in the Global South. It's
S2: also growing strongly but quietly in the Middle East. In
S2: the West. It's certainly been in decline, but there is
S2: something of a of a renaissance. Uh, you know, um,
S2: that I'm a Christian, so I'm an adult convert. So
S2: for me, the important thing about Christianity or about the
S2: message of the, of the of Christ is that it's
S2: beautiful and that it's true and that it's good. So
S2: less judgment, more getting involved with people and, and and
S2: if the church weren't influencing society, if all the Catholic schools, hospitals,
S2: aged care facilities, welfare agencies disappeared, we'd be a heck
S2: of a lot worse off. Um, so we still have to, Uh,
S2: respect that, I imagine. The fact is, the strength of
S2: the church, certainly in Australia, is that the level of
S2: the local parish and the local school. Uh, most Catholics
S2: sitting in the pews in Sydney and Melbourne don't really
S2: pay much attention to their bishops, and they don't really
S2: pay much attention to the Pope. It's their local community
S2: that matters. So it's going to be important. Well, he
S2: could be if he if he strikes the right note
S2: for the right chords, uh, as France was pretty much did.
S2: And even though I say Francis did, the decline continued.
S2: So you're quite right to question that. I suppose, though,
S2: that people are looking for meaning and purpose in their lives,
S2: and the church has always been good at offering something
S2: that is not merely selfish or, uh, utilitarian. And I
S2: think that appeal will continue to young, young people are
S2: very interested in justice. They're very interested in doing the
S2: right thing until it's beaten out of them by life.
S2: And we should encourage and applaud that.
S1: Well, Barney, thank you so much for your time.
S2: Absolutely. My pleasure.
S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole.
S1: Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio
S1: is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of
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S1: I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks
S1: for listening.