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S1: Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a

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S1: culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,

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S1: where we dive into the latest in the world of

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S1: pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and

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S1: Mel Cambrai. How's it going, guys?

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S2: It's going well. I actually had a bit of a

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S2: Thomas Mitchell moment this morning. Oh, that could.

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S1: Mean any number of things.

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S2: It's good. It's related to the sausage roll incident that

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S2: you had where you famously stole the sausage roll. Anyway,

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S2: this morning, because of the outage that's going on with

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S2: Optus at the moment, when I got my coffee, they

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S2: were like, you don't have to pay for the coffee,

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S2: just like all the terminals. Let me put your name down.

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S2: And I was so uncomfortable with it. I felt like

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S2: I was almost like, do you want to take my license?

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S2: Like what? What can I give you?

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S1: You could just make up a fake name. You could

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S1: be mad.

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S2: Yeah, exactly. I go by that too. I've been trained.

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S2: But it did make me think Thomas. Like it was

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S2: very different response. Whereas you. You just took your sausage roll.

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S3: Where is this coffee shop?

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S2: I'm just downstairs.

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S3: Perfect. I'll be down there after this to get myself

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S3: a sandwich and.

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S2: Just write down Osman.

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S1: Very funny. For the moment you go down is when

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S1: Optus is back up and running the $354. Please.

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S3: All the orders start coming through like on the bear.

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S1: Well, speaking of the bear. So there's a bit of

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S1: news around that I think is worth touching on. Before

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S1: we get into the main topic of today's show. The

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S1: first bit of news just this week, Tuesday night, The

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S1: Bear was announced that it was returning for season three.

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S1: That's exciting. How are we.

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S2: Feeling? Really happy for you, Thomas. Really happy for you.

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S3: I am obviously very excited. And it's funny because now

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S3: somehow my personal happiness is connected to the bears continuation.

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S3: I think so, so many people sent it to me

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S3: yesterday and they were like, hey, obviously the bears coming back,

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S3: you must be having a great day. I was like, yes,

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S3: I am.

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S2: Also, what do you mean by somehow you have actively.

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S1: Yeah, yeah. You've worked very hard to curate.

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S3: This is you guys are projected this upon me because

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S3: Carmy and I are so similar vibe wise. Well, you.

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S1: Both left me hanging. I sent you guys a link

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S1: to the announcement late last night, and you.

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S3: Just said at 11:18 p.m., I was asleep.

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S1: I was watching Afghanistan smash out a huge innings against

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S1: Australia in the World Cup, their highest ever one day

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S1: international total. Very exciting for Afghanistan.

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S3: Close, but not close enough though.

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S1: I know I was rooting for them as the underdogs.

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S1: And then obviously Glenn Maxwell absolutely destroyed it with the

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S1: 201 innings. Incredible stuff. Finishing it with a six. Yes,

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S1: I was up watching the cricket like a patriotic Australian

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S1: who was secretly rooting for Afghanistan. So I was disappointed

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S1: that you guys were asleep.

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S3: It was very heroic from Glenn Maxwell, obviously coming through cramp.

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S3: And inevitably there will be a channel nine miniseries about it.

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S1: Underbelly the cramp. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to

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S1: touch on briefly was the latest in the actors strike, which,

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S1: depending on who you talk to, is either like about

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S1: to end any minute or is going to drag on indefinitely.

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S1: A lot of big names have gotten involved in this lately,

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S1: like Zachary Quinto, the actor he put an email he

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S1: sent to Fran Drescher, who you remember is the president

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S1: of the Screen Actors Guild. And he and he kind

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S1: of posted it on Instagram saying, Fran, the studio is

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S1: like putting the pressure on. They want you to cave,

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S1: but don't fold. Like I will pick it for the

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S1: rest of history if need be. I'm not sure every

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S1: actor is in the same position as Zachary Quinto. He's

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S1: still living on that Star Trek coin, I guess. But

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S1: there have been some developments this week. The studios, the

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S1: amp have said they've sent their final and best offer

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S1: to the union. It's worth noting that they say that

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S1: all the time. The union say no thank you, and

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S1: they come back with another final and best offer. But

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S1: from what we hear, agreement has been reached on, like

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S1: all the key issues to do with things like pay

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S1: and residuals and the kind of revenue share from streaming

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S1: providers that could go to artists. The one thing that

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S1: hasn't been solid yet is I, and this seems like

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S1: a big sticking point. We're kind of now haggling over

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S1: the amount of compensation. Both big name actors and background

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S1: actors should get for their likeness being sort of scanned

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S1: and used in AI generated models. What's interesting, though, is

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S1: I don't know if you guys have started noticing this

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S1: in work, but even though the strike is still technically

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S1: on the vibe from studios and acting PR people is

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S1: that interviews are probably going to start happening again soon.

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S1: Like releases are going to start happening again soon. Hotel

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S1: rooms are being booked for junkets and things, so you

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S1: get the feeling that even though it's not been formally announced,

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S1: there's a sense in Hollywood that this is going to

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S1: be over soon and actors want to get back to

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S1: work in terms of acting, be want to actually start

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S1: promoting the movies that are going to come out. But

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S1: I think this is also really important. This third bit,

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S1: the Oscars race is heating up, and a big part

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S1: of the Oscar race is actors being able to talk

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S1: about their roles, their performances get on the. Campaign trail.

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S1: So I think everything is sort of looking like we

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S1: may get a deal sometime soon. Is that sort of

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S1: chiming with what you guys are reading and seeing around

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S1: the place?

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S3: Yeah, I think so. It feels like there's a general acceptance.

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S3: And look, a lot of the evidence you just listed

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S3: there that things are coming to an end. I do

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S3: think as well, it's probably a really good time for

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S3: it to end. I think it's hard because like these,

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S3: the reality is it's a trendy, cool issue when it

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S3: breaks and people get around it. But like sadly, when

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S3: you're not involved directly, like people do get fatigued, like

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S3: I'm talking about the wider public, get fatigue on it,

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S3: and then really they just want to watch their shows

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S3: and stuff. So I think like, yeah, it's it's gone

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S3: on longer than a lot of people thought it would

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S3: 120 days.

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S1: Yeah. It's a long time.

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S3: Yeah. It's crazy. And I think I do suspect that

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S3: it will be done like come early the new year,

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S3: if not before.

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S2: Yeah, obviously we're putting up to Boxing Day as well,

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S2: which is such a big day of cinema releases that

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S2: it would be great if it could be solved by then.

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S2: I don't know though. I feel like we often we've

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S2: had a few moments where we're like, it's close to ending,

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S2: it's close to ending. So I'm not 100% sure that

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S2: it's going to be sorted before the end of the year,

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S2: but I hope early into next year we'll we'll finally

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S2: get some more actor interviews.

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S3: I'm already heartbreaking because they pushed The White Lotus to 2025.

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S3: It's like it's like, how do you even begin to

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S3: get excited about a show that's over a year away? Yeah,

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S3: I think.

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S1: That is an understated part of what the strike means.

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S1: It's like 2024 is going to be slim pickings, like

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S1: there's been a bunch of big movies like Dune Part

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S1: two that have been held over from this year. So

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S1: there'll be some big cinema releases in the first half

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S1: of next year, but I think the second half of

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S1: next year will probably be pretty quiet in the cinema front.

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S1: And then when it comes to TV, I kind of

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S1: don't really know what we've got to look forward to,

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S1: which actually kind of does bring us to our main

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S1: topic of the day. I'm going to ask you guys

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S1: a question as a way to sort of ease into

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S1: this one. When I say the words prestige television, what

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S1: kinds of shows does that evoke for each of you?

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S3: I think the answer that most people will give the

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S3: HBO classics The Sopranos, The Wire, then you kind of

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S3: move into Mad Men, that era of things, and then

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S3: of course, more recently the successions. But I do think

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S3: that when when people hear the word prestige TV, it's

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S3: really like wedded to that, that wire Sopranos era when

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S3: HBO kind of changed the game.

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S2: Yeah, I reckon those two are the ones that most

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S2: people will say. And then also things like House of cards,

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S2: Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, the shows that then continued

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S2: on in what is often referred to as the golden

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S2: era of TV.

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S1: Yeah, it feels like. That's right. Like there's that early

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S1: wave of HBO stuff you and I were talking earlier

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S1: this morning about Oz, which is a show that sort

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S1: of predated The Sopranos by a few years. I really

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S1: feel like that did kind of like, lay the groundwork

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S1: for a lot of those other HBO shows. And then

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S1: I feel like that next era is that kind of

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S1: streaming era that Netflix helped usher in when it first started.

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S1: Things like House of cards and even Orange Is the

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S1: New Black, which no one really talks about anymore. It

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S1: sort of disappeared from the culture, but was a big

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S1: part of like TV conversation for a while. The reason

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S1: why I asked you guys that question is not just

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S1: for the sake of it or a prestige pop quiz,

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S1: but there's been a lot of conversation lately around the

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S1: idea of prestige television, which has shaped, as we've said,

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S1: so much of our viewing experiences. This era may be

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S1: at an end. I'm going I'm going to read some

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S1: headlines to you to this effect. The end of peak

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S1: television has the era of prestige TV just ground to

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S1: a halt. That was in The Guardian on June 5th.

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S1: The era of prestige TV is ending. We're going to

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S1: miss it when it's gone. That's The New York Times,

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S1: September 21st. The most recent one, The Twilight of Prestige television.

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S1: The New Yorker, October 30th, just a week ago. That

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S1: last one is a piece by Michael Schulman which traces

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S1: the rise and his claims, the alleged fall of what

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S1: we describe as prestige TV. It draws in a couple

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S1: of books that go into the way that the industry

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S1: has shifted in the last decade, decade and a half,

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S1: and basically makes the case that the kinds of shows

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S1: that we've been talking about, the kinds of shows that

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S1: we love talking about on this show, things like succession

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S1: may never come back because of a whole bunch of

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S1: factors to do with how the industry operates. Now. I

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S1: think we've talked a bit about this on the show

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S1: and kind of roundabout ways, and we've discussed why there

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S1: seems to be a bit of a drought at the

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S1: moment with like top tier TV shows. It certainly feels

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S1: like since succession, there hasn't really been anything of that

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S1: level of quality that has captured a broader kind of

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S1: zeitgeisty or conversation. Doesn't seem like, as we were just saying,

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S1: that anything looks likely to land in that sort of

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S1: succession space in 2024 either. So I've spent a bit

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S1: of time talking to you guys about this thesis of

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S1: prestige TV potentially being over and what that means for

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S1: viewers and for people like us who like to talk

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S1: about it. And maybe we can start. By discussing what

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S1: we actually mean when we say the words prestige TV.

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S1: We listed some of those shows, but what do you

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S1: reckon those shows have in common? Like what makes a

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S1: prestige show a prestige show? What separates it from the

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S1: chaff of most of what you see on TV or

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S1: on streaming platforms?

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S2: I mean, I think it's hard to define, and I

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S2: think prestige TV is kind of become synonymous with quality,

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S2: which then makes it very subjective, because one person's prestige

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S2: TV could be another person's dumpster fire. Like when you

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S2: Google examples of prestige TV, one of the ones that

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S2: comes up is Good Wife, which I think is a

226
00:10:41,150 --> 00:10:43,790
S2: great a great show. But am I putting that in

227
00:10:43,790 --> 00:10:46,280
S2: the same category as some of those other ones we've listed?

228
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,620
S2: Probably not. So I think it is like really hard

229
00:10:48,620 --> 00:10:52,340
S2: to define and it's become very kind of subjective. Um,

230
00:10:52,460 --> 00:10:56,270
S2: and also I think prestige is a label that is

231
00:10:56,270 --> 00:11:00,980
S2: given or taken away very quickly and fluidly, like something

232
00:11:00,980 --> 00:11:04,220
S2: might not start off as prestige TV, but then it

233
00:11:04,220 --> 00:11:07,070
S2: becomes prestige TV either when it's had its whole season

234
00:11:07,070 --> 00:11:10,160
S2: run or further on in the future. And the other way,

235
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,800
S2: I think things that do start is prestige TV, something

236
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,890
S2: like Stranger Things. You know, I think we labeled that

237
00:11:15,890 --> 00:11:18,170
S2: prestige TV at the start, and then we kind of

238
00:11:18,170 --> 00:11:20,600
S2: took that away from it as the season continued. So

239
00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,240
S2: I think it's a really fluid label is the other thing.

240
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,060
S2: But when I think about what they all have in common,

241
00:11:26,059 --> 00:11:30,530
S2: I think it's kind of high production values, long narrative arcs,

242
00:11:30,530 --> 00:11:35,210
S2: usually longer episodes, bigger budgets. I think they're more character focused,

243
00:11:35,210 --> 00:11:37,970
S2: and there's a lot of kind of moral grayness in them.

244
00:11:37,970 --> 00:11:40,340
S2: They're all about kind of existing in the middle. They're

245
00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:42,770
S2: not kind of clear cut shows with goodies and baddies.

246
00:11:42,770 --> 00:11:45,680
S2: They have complicated narratives and complicated characters.

247
00:11:46,010 --> 00:11:48,350
S3: Yeah, I think that's all very true. But I think

248
00:11:48,350 --> 00:11:50,089
S3: in terms of the actual label, even if we do

249
00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:52,280
S3: take it away or give it, but like, I mean,

250
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,530
S3: succession is a great example because we love talking about

251
00:11:54,530 --> 00:11:57,170
S3: it and B, it's the most recent prestige TV and

252
00:11:57,170 --> 00:11:59,750
S3: it had like the very much the right ingredients for

253
00:11:59,750 --> 00:12:01,550
S3: all the things you need to be labeled prestige. So

254
00:12:01,550 --> 00:12:05,240
S3: it was like critically acclaimed. It was super buzzy. It

255
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,320
S3: was like no one wanted to get spoilers. Every single week.

256
00:12:08,330 --> 00:12:11,060
S3: It did. Like, you know, the ratings weren't crazy to

257
00:12:11,059 --> 00:12:13,189
S3: begin with, but they popped off eventually. But also, it

258
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:15,319
S3: would sweep every award show. So it had that like

259
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,830
S3: perfect balance of like fans were obsessed with it. Critics

260
00:12:18,830 --> 00:12:21,559
S3: were telling you it was the greatest show and everyone like,

261
00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,599
S3: needed to be watching it. No one wanted to know

262
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,270
S3: what was going on. It seized the fascination of the internet.

263
00:12:26,270 --> 00:12:28,069
S3: So how do all those factors at play at once,

264
00:12:28,070 --> 00:12:29,990
S3: which I think is what is really required to be

265
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:32,150
S3: like prestige as well these days you need to have

266
00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:34,550
S3: like the critical acclaim. The award shows need to be

267
00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:36,230
S3: on your side and you need to kind of have

268
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:37,849
S3: this internet presence, but.

269
00:12:37,850 --> 00:12:40,760
S2: Then it's a prestige show, just a good show.

270
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,820
S3: No, I think the two things can coexist. But I

271
00:12:43,820 --> 00:12:46,610
S3: just mean when we to also have that prestige label,

272
00:12:46,610 --> 00:12:48,410
S3: those things really have to be in play.

273
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,090
S1: Yeah, I agree with all of those. I mean, there's

274
00:12:50,090 --> 00:12:54,709
S1: a couple of extra sort of metrics or maybe like

275
00:12:54,770 --> 00:12:58,100
S1: checks that I would add for something to be considered prestige.

276
00:12:58,100 --> 00:13:01,489
S1: I think it's not always the case, but often these

277
00:13:01,490 --> 00:13:03,500
S1: shows what they've got in common is like they are

278
00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:07,250
S1: the vision, the singular vision of like a particular auteur,

279
00:13:07,250 --> 00:13:09,620
S1: whether that's either like a writer or a director, like,

280
00:13:09,620 --> 00:13:12,290
S1: I think David Simon and The Wire, like there's writers

281
00:13:12,290 --> 00:13:15,350
S1: rooms involved in this stuff, but True Detective, Nick has

282
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:17,810
S1: a lot of like, these are visions from one particular

283
00:13:17,809 --> 00:13:21,620
S1: person who wants to use a framing device to tell

284
00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:24,679
S1: a story about, like, decay in modern America. I mean,

285
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:25,880
S1: that's the other thing a lot of these shows have

286
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,760
S1: in common. They all secretly about decay in modern America

287
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,670
S1: in different ways, you know, even like House of cards

288
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:34,670
S1: when that first came out, does David Fincher, the extremely,

289
00:13:34,670 --> 00:13:39,920
S1: extremely accomplished film director sitting down and Jesse Armstrong and succession, like,

290
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,870
S1: there are lots of people who make these things come together,

291
00:13:41,870 --> 00:13:45,170
S1: but unlike kind of like even good like network shows,

292
00:13:45,170 --> 00:13:47,750
S1: which there's a premise, but then there's like ten different

293
00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:51,560
S1: people who are equally involved in bringing episodes to life.

294
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:56,840
S1: I think that's slightly distinct from the prestige world, where

295
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,920
S1: it's an artist attempting to use television to get across

296
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,460
S1: their sort of thesis or their analysis of the world.

297
00:14:04,580 --> 00:14:08,270
S1: And I think there is also an overlap with prestige.

298
00:14:08,270 --> 00:14:11,600
S1: And certain networks or streamers like HBO is the most

299
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,330
S1: obvious one. I feel like that is like a bit

300
00:14:14,330 --> 00:14:16,910
S1: less so the case at the moment. I think it'll

301
00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:19,040
S1: be interesting to see. We'll talk a bit about this

302
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,530
S1: later on. Like HBO is in a very different era

303
00:14:21,530 --> 00:14:24,200
S1: in terms of how it's been swallowed up by these

304
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:30,110
S1: like huge megacorporations Warner Brothers discovery, like the Discovery Channel,

305
00:14:30,110 --> 00:14:33,140
S1: now owns everything, and HBO has been rebranded to Max.

306
00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:35,270
S1: It's a whole crazy world. I think that's having an impact.

307
00:14:35,270 --> 00:14:39,530
S1: But I also think early era Netflix was pretty synonymous

308
00:14:39,530 --> 00:14:42,890
S1: with prestige, too, and I think that is also shifted.

309
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,940
S1: Do you guys agree? If we sort of I mean, firstly,

310
00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:48,980
S1: I should ask, do you think between all of that

311
00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:51,560
S1: we have a loose definition of prestige, or do you

312
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,990
S1: think we've still got some tension here about what we're

313
00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:54,650
S1: talking about?

314
00:14:54,650 --> 00:14:57,410
S2: I think it's so fluid. It's based on the way

315
00:14:57,410 --> 00:15:00,260
S2: the user deploys it. I think it's an amorphous category

316
00:15:00,260 --> 00:15:03,140
S2: that is always going to be changing. And what's prestige

317
00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:05,720
S2: today won't be tomorrow. What do they say, like marry

318
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,150
S2: the age widow in the next? I just don't I

319
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:11,540
S2: think it's this like label that people put out, which

320
00:15:11,540 --> 00:15:14,930
S2: is mainly served to get those shows attention. Right. You

321
00:15:14,930 --> 00:15:18,020
S2: want the label prestige because it's going to have all

322
00:15:18,020 --> 00:15:21,710
S2: these kind of signifiers that are not actually connected to anything.

323
00:15:21,710 --> 00:15:23,510
S2: I don't know, I don't really know what we're talking

324
00:15:23,510 --> 00:15:25,520
S2: about when we're talking about prestige TV. Like, are you

325
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,470
S2: calling The Queen's Gambit prestige?

326
00:15:27,650 --> 00:15:29,780
S3: I think I also was going to say it's an

327
00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:32,150
S3: amorphous category, so just want to put that out there.

328
00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:36,530
S2: Like is the Crown? No, actually I just, I don't

329
00:15:36,530 --> 00:15:39,500
S2: like I actually don't understand. I read all these articles

330
00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:41,270
S2: about it and I'm like, no one can pin down

331
00:15:41,270 --> 00:15:44,180
S2: what prestige TV is. So how unhelpful. Well, I'm.

332
00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:46,340
S1: Really glad you're saying this on the podcast where we

333
00:15:46,340 --> 00:15:47,450
S1: decided to talk about prestige.

334
00:15:47,450 --> 00:15:50,210
S3: I totally disagree, I think that is so wrong. I

335
00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:52,940
S3: could list ten shows right to Osbourne right now, and

336
00:15:52,940 --> 00:15:55,100
S3: I could say six of them are prestige in my head.

337
00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:56,270
S3: And I bet you he would pick.

338
00:15:56,270 --> 00:15:58,190
S2: The who is that a reflection of? It's of what

339
00:15:58,190 --> 00:16:00,859
S2: you consider quality. So is not prestige TV just good?

340
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:01,610
S2: But no, because.

341
00:16:01,610 --> 00:16:04,640
S3: There is a commonly accepted thing. Like what? What makes

342
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,260
S3: prestige TV? Like if I went out and asked ten

343
00:16:06,260 --> 00:16:08,239
S3: people in the newsroom, is success in prestige TV? They'd

344
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,040
S3: say yes. And I'd say is.

345
00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:11,690
S1: Well, the Queen's Gambit is a good one. I don't

346
00:16:11,690 --> 00:16:13,340
S1: think that is. And I don't think most people would

347
00:16:13,340 --> 00:16:14,420
S1: think that would be presented.

348
00:16:14,750 --> 00:16:15,470
S3: That's not prestige.

349
00:16:15,770 --> 00:16:17,630
S2: I reckon. People I reckon people might say no, they

350
00:16:17,630 --> 00:16:20,510
S2: wouldn't stage. They wouldn't. So you're you just think it

351
00:16:20,510 --> 00:16:21,850
S2: needs critical and commercial success.

352
00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:23,570
S3: But it's just one of those things, you know?

353
00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:26,450
S2: Okay, well, anything that people say, they just know I

354
00:16:26,450 --> 00:16:28,100
S2: like I've got a question. You know what I mean?

355
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,020
S3: I would say the Crown is another one. The Crown

356
00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:32,840
S3: is probably prestige TV for a bit. And now I'd

357
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,120
S3: probably say people would no longer say it is.

358
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,160
S1: Okay, what do you guys think about sex in the city?

359
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:38,120
S1: What is that full in this.

360
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:39,710
S3: Conversation, not prestige TV?

361
00:16:40,190 --> 00:16:41,840
S2: Yeah, I would say not. Not prestige.

362
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,640
S3: TV. It's a classic, but it's not prestige.

363
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,210
S1: Yeah, interesting. That's like a kind of a borderline one

364
00:16:47,210 --> 00:16:49,160
S1: for me in that I think one of the other

365
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,010
S1: things that I think these shows that we associate with

366
00:16:52,010 --> 00:16:56,360
S1: the label prestige do well, is they often like doing

367
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,420
S1: something new, or that kind of creating a genre like

368
00:16:59,420 --> 00:17:03,260
S1: that is something that shows like us and The Sopranos

369
00:17:03,260 --> 00:17:05,449
S1: and The Wire did, though they reinvented genres something like

370
00:17:05,450 --> 00:17:08,629
S1: sex and the city, which had high production values. Great

371
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:13,399
S1: writing was like division of a couple of people and

372
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,300
S1: pushed an idea of what television could be forward. That's

373
00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:20,240
S1: quite different to just a well-made show that is doing

374
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,930
S1: a period drama, or that is doing a comedy or

375
00:17:23,930 --> 00:17:26,420
S1: something like that. Male. I feel like it is going

376
00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:28,970
S1: to be difficult to have a conversation about whether or

377
00:17:28,970 --> 00:17:34,100
S1: not we are post prestige, if we don't agree with

378
00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:36,169
S1: each other on what the label is. But I wonder

379
00:17:36,170 --> 00:17:38,690
S1: whether for the purposes of the conversation, we can just

380
00:17:38,690 --> 00:17:42,950
S1: say there is a broad. The glory of like, well-made,

381
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:48,620
S1: expensive shows that are about meaty, complicated themes are entertaining,

382
00:17:49,190 --> 00:17:51,350
S1: a bit avant garde in terms of the way they

383
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:55,160
S1: tell stories, where they look, the acting and HBO makes

384
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,170
S1: a lot of them. Netflix used to make a lot

385
00:17:57,170 --> 00:18:00,530
S1: of them, and lots of people are worried that these

386
00:18:00,530 --> 00:18:02,150
S1: kinds of shows might not exist anymore. Can we just

387
00:18:02,150 --> 00:18:04,330
S1: agree on that? As a as a loose categories.

388
00:18:04,369 --> 00:18:06,590
S2: Of the debate, we will accept that definition.

389
00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:09,170
S3: Could I just could I just add one more thing though?

390
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,179
S3: You mentioned sex and the city, and I do think

391
00:18:11,180 --> 00:18:15,770
S3: people also have a hard time including like comedy or

392
00:18:15,770 --> 00:18:18,709
S3: half hour shows in the prestige label like Seinfeld is

393
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:21,290
S3: probably prestige TV, but it's not. When you asked us,

394
00:18:21,290 --> 00:18:23,030
S3: no one here said Seinfeld, even though it's one of

395
00:18:23,030 --> 00:18:25,580
S3: the greatest shows, because I think prestige has become synonymous

396
00:18:25,580 --> 00:18:27,770
S3: with the 45 minutes to an hour like brooding drama.

397
00:18:27,770 --> 00:18:30,139
S3: So I think that does it gets tricky in that space.

398
00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:31,190
S3: But yeah, well, I.

399
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:33,290
S1: Think, I mean, I think it's useful, this conversation, even

400
00:18:33,290 --> 00:18:34,609
S1: if it may be there are some people being like,

401
00:18:34,609 --> 00:18:35,960
S1: what the fuck are these guys talking about? But I

402
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,410
S1: think if the three of us, you know, are struggling

403
00:18:39,410 --> 00:18:42,290
S1: to say this is a clear case of what's in

404
00:18:42,290 --> 00:18:45,290
S1: what's at, I think that is relevant and useful for people.

405
00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:48,140
S1: And I think it probably is reflective of the fact that,

406
00:18:48,140 --> 00:18:51,410
S1: particularly in the streaming world, a lot of these boundaries

407
00:18:51,410 --> 00:18:53,690
S1: are kind of blurred, like it used to be very obvious.

408
00:18:53,690 --> 00:18:56,450
S1: What was an HBO show versus an NBC show like?

409
00:18:56,450 --> 00:18:59,000
S1: These shows looked different and we're trying to do different things,

410
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,750
S1: whereas now every streamer is trying to, like, look a

411
00:19:02,750 --> 00:19:05,270
S1: little bit HBO in a way. And shows like The

412
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:09,950
S1: Queen's Gambit, a borrowing element of what prestige used to do,

413
00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:13,820
S1: but are telling much more straightforward kind of story. So

414
00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:16,550
S1: it is complicated. It is messy. And I think there's

415
00:19:16,550 --> 00:19:19,820
S1: another layer to this, which is that film is like

416
00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:21,590
S1: a shadow of its former self, because a lot of

417
00:19:21,590 --> 00:19:24,710
S1: what used to be films are now TV shows or

418
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:28,129
S1: limited dramas, some of which are quote unquote prestige and

419
00:19:28,130 --> 00:19:30,500
S1: some of which are not. But there's like a very

420
00:19:30,830 --> 00:19:32,780
S1: it's a messy landscape is what I'm trying.

421
00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:35,540
S2: To say, that you're now having to say prestige with like,

422
00:19:35,540 --> 00:19:39,110
S2: air quotes to show that the meaning is under interrogation.

423
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,109
S1: Yeah. Okay. But if we go back to this idea

424
00:19:42,109 --> 00:19:45,770
S1: of like, really high quality television that is generally critically

425
00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:50,270
S1: acclaimed and builds broad audiences, things like succession, that's what

426
00:19:50,270 --> 00:19:52,850
S1: we're going to stick with for the rest of this conversation.

427
00:19:53,090 --> 00:19:57,380
S1: Do we think there has been a drop off, which

428
00:19:57,380 --> 00:20:01,129
S1: is what a lot of these big, big articles and

429
00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:03,290
S1: big publications from the times to the New York to

430
00:20:03,290 --> 00:20:06,139
S1: The Guardian is saying, have we noticed this?

431
00:20:06,830 --> 00:20:10,010
S3: I think there has been like, you know, there's a

432
00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:11,929
S3: few articles that gardening, one in particular that kind of

433
00:20:11,930 --> 00:20:14,570
S3: talks about how naturally it was a cycle where the

434
00:20:14,570 --> 00:20:16,520
S3: baton would get handed over and it just kind of

435
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,300
S3: happened organically. We kind of went through that, obviously like

436
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:22,070
S3: post Sopranos, but then we went into like the Mad

437
00:20:22,070 --> 00:20:23,899
S3: Men era. Then Game of Thrones popped up and that

438
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:25,790
S3: became a thing. And then we had Breaking Bad, and

439
00:20:25,790 --> 00:20:28,850
S3: then it all just kind of kept flowing into one another.

440
00:20:28,850 --> 00:20:31,429
S3: But it did feel like, I think collectively for the

441
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:33,890
S3: viewing public that there was this, like, I don't know,

442
00:20:33,890 --> 00:20:35,989
S3: that trepidation as succession came to an end, which was

443
00:20:35,990 --> 00:20:39,260
S3: obviously so devastating for everyone anyway, there was no clear

444
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:44,060
S3: successor in sight and no one like. It's hard to

445
00:20:44,060 --> 00:20:45,859
S3: say why exactly. I mean, we're obviously about to get

446
00:20:45,859 --> 00:20:48,110
S3: into it, but yeah, it does feel like we went

447
00:20:48,109 --> 00:20:50,180
S3: through a bit of a golden age of the golden age,

448
00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:53,129
S3: and then now it's it's looking pretty barren.

449
00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:56,629
S2: Yeah, I feel like I'm less pessimistic about it. And

450
00:20:56,630 --> 00:21:00,050
S2: I think that, no, I don't think I don't think

451
00:21:00,050 --> 00:21:04,070
S2: prestige TV is over. I think the media loves nothing

452
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:08,950
S2: more than declaring that something is dead repeatedly for decades. I,

453
00:21:09,410 --> 00:21:13,280
S2: I think that succession was a work of art. And

454
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,859
S2: you don't get a work of art like, every year.

455
00:21:15,859 --> 00:21:17,990
S2: Like that's not how it works in music. It's not

456
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:21,350
S2: how it works in books. I mean, just because we

457
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:24,919
S2: don't have another succession immediately doesn't mean that TV is dead.

458
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,320
S2: I look at what's on or what's been on lately,

459
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,310
S2: like Bad Sisters, White Lotus Beef, deadlock hacks. All of

460
00:21:31,310 --> 00:21:35,449
S2: these are fantastic shows, and I'm also like, I'm kind

461
00:21:35,450 --> 00:21:37,970
S2: of wary too, because the shows we keep talking about

462
00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:41,780
S2: like The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, House of cards,

463
00:21:41,780 --> 00:21:44,720
S2: they're all really one kind of show in a way.

464
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,990
S2: They're like the anti-hero male, and they're all written by

465
00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:52,160
S2: men called David. So I think TV has moved from

466
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,230
S2: that into something different. But I don't think we're seeing

467
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:57,230
S2: the end of good TV in any stretch, maybe different TV,

468
00:21:57,230 --> 00:22:00,320
S2: but I think quality TV is still there to be found.

469
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,080
S1: This is going to sound like I'm a cop out.

470
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,000
S1: I'm kind of in the middle of both of you,

471
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,240
S1: but I'll explain why. Because I agree with you, Mel,

472
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,959
S1: that just because we don't have 50 amazing shows every

473
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,290
S1: year doesn't mean like, you know, it's the end of

474
00:22:15,290 --> 00:22:17,119
S1: the world and we're not going to get good shows anymore.

475
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,850
S1: But I do think there's been a drop off. But

476
00:22:19,850 --> 00:22:23,180
S1: I think the problem, though is the drop off is

477
00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:26,090
S1: from this, like artificial high that we've been living in

478
00:22:26,090 --> 00:22:29,600
S1: for the last few years. That was never really sustainable.

479
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,020
S1: But we were very lucky for a bunch of different reasons.

480
00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:36,080
S1: I'll go into we got used to having like ten

481
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:43,250
S1: insanely great shows starring Oscar winners that existed on relatively

482
00:22:43,250 --> 00:22:45,770
S1: affordable streaming platforms that we could just watch at the

483
00:22:45,770 --> 00:22:47,570
S1: drop of a hat, and I feel like we got

484
00:22:47,570 --> 00:22:50,330
S1: used to that. We got fat on that, you know,

485
00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:53,369
S1: we sucked on that teat. We enjoyed ourselves. We, you know,

486
00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:57,200
S1: there's a boom in like podcasts talking about these shows,

487
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,920
S1: people writing about these shows. Audiences love reading about this,

488
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,170
S1: like a little bit of like lifting the veil, like

489
00:23:03,170 --> 00:23:06,290
S1: one of the most read categories on our news sites.

490
00:23:06,290 --> 00:23:07,669
S1: Sydney Morning Herald in the age of the last few

491
00:23:07,670 --> 00:23:11,540
S1: years has been like TV, like people love reading and

492
00:23:11,540 --> 00:23:16,910
S1: watching shiny, exciting, fun, edgy, interesting TV shows. And there's

493
00:23:16,910 --> 00:23:18,770
S1: been so many of them, I would say for the

494
00:23:18,770 --> 00:23:23,310
S1: past like 5 to 8 years. I think we are

495
00:23:23,310 --> 00:23:25,680
S1: seeing a lot less and I think we will continue

496
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,080
S1: to see a lot less. And I think probably what

497
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,990
S1: that means is will go back to the era of

498
00:23:31,290 --> 00:23:33,629
S1: there was one and then two years later there was

499
00:23:33,630 --> 00:23:35,370
S1: another one, and then two years later there was another one.

500
00:23:35,369 --> 00:23:37,920
S1: But that is not going to be satisfying for people

501
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,700
S1: of our generation, because we are not used to the

502
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:44,639
S1: late 90s, early 2000 model. We used to the current

503
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,439
S1: streaming model where Amazon, Disney, Apple, Netflix, Stan, Binge will

504
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,050
S1: have 2 to 3 of these at any one time.

505
00:23:52,050 --> 00:23:54,390
S1: So that's kind of like why I'm sort of sitting

506
00:23:54,390 --> 00:23:58,230
S1: in between you guys on that one. I think the

507
00:23:58,230 --> 00:24:01,439
S1: reasons as to why this is happening is kind of

508
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,710
S1: more interesting in a way. I think, like what has

509
00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:10,560
S1: happened in the last decade or half a decade is

510
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,160
S1: so there's this term people talk about in like tech land, right?

511
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,740
S1: When it comes to things like the rise of Uber

512
00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:18,629
S1: and the rise of Airbnb. You remember when Uber first

513
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:21,270
S1: came out and it was like so cheap. Everyone's like,

514
00:24:21,270 --> 00:24:24,450
S1: why would you not use Uber? Because it costs like

515
00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:28,139
S1: $2 to get from Surry Hills to Ashfield. The driver

516
00:24:28,140 --> 00:24:30,060
S1: will give you mints and water. This is amazing. Well,

517
00:24:30,060 --> 00:24:32,580
S1: like disrupting the landscape. Same with Airbnb. Like it was

518
00:24:32,580 --> 00:24:35,550
S1: really cheap to use these kinds of apps. That's not

519
00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:37,919
S1: the case anymore, right? Like all these apps that started

520
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,530
S1: out as cheap and fun are now expensive and terrible,

521
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:43,680
S1: essentially because they were funded by huge amounts of venture

522
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,460
S1: capital that made them really easy and cheap for us

523
00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:49,770
S1: to use. But those companies lost heaps of money just

524
00:24:49,770 --> 00:24:53,070
S1: to try and build huge market share. That's kind of

525
00:24:53,070 --> 00:24:55,920
S1: what we've been dealing with with streaming as well, like

526
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:58,260
S1: when these big streaming companies, I think Netflix is a

527
00:24:58,260 --> 00:25:00,180
S1: big one, came out. They didn't make money for a

528
00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:03,000
S1: very long period of time. Their goal was to pay

529
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,240
S1: these big directors, tens or hundreds of millions of dollars

530
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,640
S1: to put shiny shows on their platform. So we would

531
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,740
S1: all subscribe for relatively cheap prices a month that was

532
00:25:13,740 --> 00:25:17,490
S1: never going to last, because the economics of that just

533
00:25:17,490 --> 00:25:22,740
S1: didn't stack up. So we've been enjoying the largesse of like,

534
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:26,310
S1: venture capital for the last five years that have created

535
00:25:26,310 --> 00:25:29,640
S1: an amazing amount of shows that money is running out.

536
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,230
S1: Money isn't as cheap as it was because of like

537
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,350
S1: rising interest. I sorry to do an economic lecture, but

538
00:25:34,350 --> 00:25:37,470
S1: like this is kind of related. Wall Street is demanding

539
00:25:37,470 --> 00:25:40,320
S1: like big returns on their investments in these companies. And

540
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,060
S1: the end result is what we are living through now,

541
00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:44,280
S1: which is that the cost of all these streaming platforms

542
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,440
S1: is going up, the amount of content is going down,

543
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,810
S1: and the quality of content is going down. Like I

544
00:25:48,810 --> 00:25:51,959
S1: feel like that is pretty unequivocal, right? Like we are

545
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,740
S1: all noticing how cost per month of streaming going up,

546
00:25:55,740 --> 00:25:58,320
S1: and we are seeing shows that are not as good

547
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,510
S1: as that used to be, particularly, I think so, to

548
00:26:00,510 --> 00:26:02,250
S1: single out Netflix. But I feel like Netflix is the

549
00:26:02,250 --> 00:26:05,040
S1: most obvious indicator of this, where they went from being

550
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,880
S1: the prestige network to just like pumping out a lot

551
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,700
S1: more reality and a lot more cheaper drama. Is that

552
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:12,330
S1: fair to say?

553
00:26:12,330 --> 00:26:14,450
S3: Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, like that's

554
00:26:14,490 --> 00:26:16,500
S3: when the story broke, like over the last couple of years,

555
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:18,270
S3: I think it was early last year that Netflix had

556
00:26:18,270 --> 00:26:22,139
S3: like shed subscribers and its like profits had fallen. It

557
00:26:22,140 --> 00:26:25,590
S3: was kind of like chaos, like everyone was in shock.

558
00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:27,480
S3: And I think the rest of the streamers, like, really

559
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,699
S3: took notice that this was like the monolith of the

560
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:33,149
S3: streaming world. And finally, Netflix was like showing that this

561
00:26:33,150 --> 00:26:35,700
S3: model that had apparently been working so well was actually

562
00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:38,129
S3: not working anymore. And that really had a domino effect,

563
00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:40,320
S3: I think, for everyone, and very much plays into what

564
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,050
S3: we're seeing now because Netflix has had to really learn,

565
00:26:43,050 --> 00:26:46,710
S3: like changed its strategy. Like, no longer are we, you know,

566
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,500
S3: we're about to see The Crown season six, the sixth

567
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:51,929
S3: and final season of one of Netflix's original kind of

568
00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:56,280
S3: prestige offerings. And that feels very much like the end

569
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,699
S3: of chapter for Netflix, because they don't really do those

570
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:02,010
S3: types of things anymore. Like, it is true that original

571
00:27:02,010 --> 00:27:05,129
S3: commissions have continued to decline in quality, but as a

572
00:27:05,130 --> 00:27:07,530
S3: result of the fact that they're now shedding subscribers and

573
00:27:07,530 --> 00:27:09,300
S3: their profits are down, they can't spend as much money.

574
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,040
S3: They need to get just like more content out there

575
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,320
S3: to try and, like, keep people on the platform. And

576
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,020
S3: it's just kind of had this like flow on effect. Yeah.

577
00:27:16,050 --> 00:27:19,650
S2: Like I agree with you to some extent. I've watched

578
00:27:19,650 --> 00:27:23,100
S2: enough prestige TV about kind of startup startups to know

579
00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:26,700
S2: that unmitigated growth can't last. But what I think you're

580
00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:28,860
S2: seeing with Netflix is that is just going to be

581
00:27:28,859 --> 00:27:33,060
S2: their strategy. And as the market settles, all of these

582
00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:35,490
S2: streamers will find their own strategy. You know, we can

583
00:27:35,490 --> 00:27:38,670
S2: see it with HBO Max versus HBO, and you will

584
00:27:38,670 --> 00:27:42,600
S2: see different streaming platforms appeal to different subscribers. I mean,

585
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,670
S2: you see it in the news industry. Netflix is going

586
00:27:44,670 --> 00:27:46,830
S2: for the throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

587
00:27:46,830 --> 00:27:50,040
S2: It's got a more kind of tabloid free access website

588
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,190
S2: versus something like, I don't know, ah, the Sydney Morning Herald,

589
00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:57,480
S2: which goes for a more premium quality subscriber. I think

590
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,820
S2: that's what we're seeing. And I mean, I guess I

591
00:27:59,820 --> 00:28:02,250
S2: was my only question to you is that if they

592
00:28:02,250 --> 00:28:06,300
S2: made all their money off the back of people subscribing

593
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:09,570
S2: for quality TV, where is the risk that they're going

594
00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:12,419
S2: to lose those subscribers if they're no longer delivering the

595
00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:14,880
S2: quality TV? You know what I mean? Like, I think

596
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,880
S2: your argument relies on the fact that they're not going

597
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,979
S2: to produce quality TV and they think people are going

598
00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:21,750
S2: to keep subscribing. Yeah.

599
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,470
S1: Look, I think my point is not that it worked

600
00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:27,689
S1: for them to spend heaps of money on TV and

601
00:28:27,690 --> 00:28:30,150
S1: get subscribers. I think my point is more, they tried

602
00:28:30,150 --> 00:28:32,100
S1: to do that and they realised after a few years

603
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:34,410
S1: the numbers didn't add up, which is why the prices

604
00:28:34,410 --> 00:28:36,149
S1: are going up, the quality is going down and we're

605
00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:38,700
S1: getting ads on these platforms like remember what the promise

606
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:42,330
S1: was of streaming when like they broke cable like like,

607
00:28:42,390 --> 00:28:44,910
S1: you know, five, six, seven, eight years ago it was

608
00:28:44,910 --> 00:28:48,660
S1: you can pay 4.99 a month and get access to everything,

609
00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:52,560
S1: and you won't have to see ads that doesn't exist anymore.

610
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,950
S1: Like all of these streamers are adding ad tiers. I

611
00:28:55,950 --> 00:28:58,620
S1: think a lot of people like. Check out how much

612
00:28:58,620 --> 00:29:00,810
S1: you're paying for these things. Whenever I tell people like

613
00:29:00,810 --> 00:29:04,330
S1: Netflix doesn't cost 799 anymore, like you're probably paying 20

614
00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:06,870
S1: or $30 for like the top tier model, it kind

615
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:09,180
S1: of shocks people because you used to be able to

616
00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:12,300
S1: pay 70 or $80 a month and you got Foxtel,

617
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:14,430
S1: and that was every single show in the world that

618
00:29:14,430 --> 00:29:17,700
S1: existed at the time you had access to. Whereas now

619
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:21,900
S1: we're all fragmented onto these different platforms, paying more money

620
00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:26,040
S1: than ever, still getting ads and not getting access to everything.

621
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,560
S1: We're just getting access to like, whatever we've signed up for.

622
00:29:29,070 --> 00:29:32,880
S1: I think what we are starting to realize is that

623
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,260
S1: the streaming model, which was very appealing to us as

624
00:29:37,260 --> 00:29:41,370
S1: consumers because of its low cost, was not going to

625
00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:44,070
S1: be sustainable in creating high quality stuff like that is

626
00:29:44,070 --> 00:29:46,890
S1: and I think the streaming companies are making purely rational decisions.

627
00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:49,440
S1: They're like, this is fine. We can still make heaps

628
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,750
S1: of money without having to pay David Fincher $80 million

629
00:29:52,830 --> 00:29:55,080
S1: to make a show like House of cards, and I

630
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,480
S1: think that is what we are living in now. But

631
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,370
S1: I think that is why we are not going to

632
00:29:59,370 --> 00:30:02,760
S1: see these great quality shows anymore for a while, or

633
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,680
S1: we're not going to see anywhere near as many of them,

634
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,010
S1: because they're expensive to make. And these companies think that

635
00:30:08,010 --> 00:30:11,160
S1: they can make enough money by giving us more of like,

636
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,130
S1: you know, Love Is Blind season ten or whatever. Like

637
00:30:14,130 --> 00:30:17,010
S1: I do feel like that is the current mode we

638
00:30:17,010 --> 00:30:19,380
S1: are entering. Does that make sense?

639
00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:22,260
S3: Yeah it does. It is funny though, because like, even

640
00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:25,860
S3: though the economics of that all stack up when like,

641
00:30:26,250 --> 00:30:29,250
S3: you know, executives are still kind of very much ego driven.

642
00:30:29,250 --> 00:30:32,850
S3: And the praise that comes with being the home of

643
00:30:32,850 --> 00:30:36,120
S3: a succession is addictive, I think, for everyone. So that

644
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,000
S3: like desire to be lauded with like, oh, where the

645
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,940
S3: home of succession will always be appealing to executives, I think.

646
00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:44,880
S3: So I do suspect that there will always be these

647
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,030
S3: big money offers to kind of the greatest creative minds

648
00:30:48,030 --> 00:30:50,940
S3: out there to try and make the next succession or

649
00:30:50,940 --> 00:30:53,460
S3: Game of Thrones or Mad Men. But yeah, I definitely

650
00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:56,250
S3: don't think there'll be like the regularity or as much

651
00:30:56,250 --> 00:30:58,290
S3: of a we won't have 2 or 3 of them

652
00:30:58,290 --> 00:30:59,370
S3: going at the same time.

653
00:30:59,370 --> 00:31:01,230
S1: Yeah. I think the bigger picture in all of this

654
00:31:01,230 --> 00:31:05,580
S1: is that like TV is a weird institution. And basically

655
00:31:05,580 --> 00:31:11,760
S1: whether it was HBO, whether it's streaming now, artists, creative showrunners, directors, auteurs,

656
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,000
S1: whatever their basically their job was to try and trick

657
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,150
S1: people with lots of money into letting them make wacky stuff. Right.

658
00:31:18,150 --> 00:31:20,370
S1: Like even back to the days of, like, Twin Peaks,

659
00:31:20,370 --> 00:31:23,670
S1: like fuck knows how Lynch managed to convince people to

660
00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:27,540
S1: let him make that show, and they managed to do

661
00:31:27,540 --> 00:31:30,780
S1: it through mainly HBO in that era. And in the

662
00:31:30,780 --> 00:31:33,300
S1: last decade or so, when there was heaps of money

663
00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:36,300
S1: being pumped into these big streamers, all sorts of creatives

664
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:39,750
S1: were allowed to take risks and do stuff. And you

665
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:42,510
S1: ended up with, like, I often think about this show, gaslit,

666
00:31:42,510 --> 00:31:44,370
S1: I think, Thomas, maybe you watched I don't know if

667
00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:48,060
S1: you did, Mel, which was a incredible show starring both

668
00:31:48,060 --> 00:31:52,170
S1: Sean Penn and Julia Roberts. That was about the Watergate

669
00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:57,150
S1: situation with Nixon. Based on Slow Burn and extremely successful podcast.

670
00:31:57,150 --> 00:31:59,310
S1: No one watched that show like no one watch that

671
00:31:59,310 --> 00:32:01,590
S1: show was one of the most expensive shows made in

672
00:32:01,590 --> 00:32:04,710
S1: recent history because of the wages of the stars, and

673
00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:07,830
S1: that is like one of maybe like 50 or 100.

674
00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:13,020
S1: Extremely good. Definitely capital pay, prestige TV shows that were

675
00:32:13,020 --> 00:32:15,420
S1: funded in this era where, like, everyone was just willing

676
00:32:15,450 --> 00:32:19,080
S1: to like, give this stuff a crack. And I think

677
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,120
S1: this brings us back to the start of this conversation,

678
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:25,650
S1: that level of content, that volume of content is going

679
00:32:25,650 --> 00:32:28,290
S1: to disappear. We're still going to get networks fully. Thomas

680
00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:31,260
S1: being like, yeah, we still want to like, win an Emmy.

681
00:32:31,260 --> 00:32:33,240
S1: We still want to give this a crack and we

682
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,880
S1: will still get everyone trying to do this, but I

683
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,800
S1: think it'll be more like it was 20 years ago

684
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,600
S1: than what it's been like for the last five years,

685
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,730
S1: where we had heaps of options. And I think that

686
00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:45,720
S1: has ramifications for like conversations people have about what are

687
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,270
S1: you watching? Like what's coming up, what are we talking about?

688
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,540
S1: And it has ramifications for people like us in terms

689
00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:53,010
S1: of like what we talk about week to week and

690
00:32:53,010 --> 00:32:55,110
S1: what we cover and what we commission, what we recap.

691
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,970
S2: Do you think this could also be an opportunity for

692
00:32:56,970 --> 00:33:01,740
S2: the streamers, like some streamers will potentially reshape as providers

693
00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:05,280
S2: of premium products, you know, and you will subscribe to that.

694
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,440
S2: And people who want that kind of show will subscribe

695
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,440
S2: to that stream of for prestige TV. Like, you know,

696
00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:13,830
S2: if A24 launched their own kind of streaming network, you

697
00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:16,230
S2: would kind of it would take its niche, but rusted

698
00:33:16,230 --> 00:33:19,470
S2: on audience who want a kind of show to it. Like,

699
00:33:19,470 --> 00:33:22,060
S2: isn't that what we'll see happen with. We will see

700
00:33:22,060 --> 00:33:25,360
S2: market providers of a certain kind of show rise up

701
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,250
S2: in the same way as you do. As I keep

702
00:33:27,250 --> 00:33:29,920
S2: saying in other fields, like in literature, you have kind

703
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,980
S2: of smaller providers. Smaller publishers don't hire.

704
00:33:33,030 --> 00:33:35,200
S3: All of you would get there. Eventually.

705
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,050
S2: You will have smaller publishers providing a certain type of

706
00:33:38,050 --> 00:33:41,770
S2: literary quality that you don't get from the bigger publishers,

707
00:33:41,770 --> 00:33:43,960
S2: like you don't get from a Harpercollins, which is doing

708
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,300
S2: the mass publishing. Like, isn't that what we're just going

709
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:49,300
S2: to see that the market's going to adjust itself?

710
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:52,320
S1: No, you're you're right, you're right. There'll be a lot

711
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,050
S1: of the bigger streamers that don't do this, and they'll

712
00:33:55,050 --> 00:33:56,970
S1: be small stream. And there are a lot of streamers

713
00:33:56,970 --> 00:33:59,430
S1: doing this already now, right. I feel like Apple TV

714
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,560
S1: is a funny one. I mean, like the morning show.

715
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,990
S1: Great production values. Absolutely. Dog shit. I don't know if

716
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:07,170
S1: anyone's watching season three. It is completely lost the plot.

717
00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:09,510
S1: It is hilarious. But you know, they've got slow horses

718
00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:12,750
S1: coming back with Gary Oldman. Like they're doing this stuff.

719
00:34:12,750 --> 00:34:16,080
S1: But Mel, my question back to you is that even

720
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,700
S1: if that is what happens, and I think that is

721
00:34:17,700 --> 00:34:21,090
S1: probably what happens TV, in terms of how we consume

722
00:34:21,090 --> 00:34:23,100
S1: and how we talk about it, has for a long

723
00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:29,310
S1: time been a community collective event. If 4 or 5%

724
00:34:29,310 --> 00:34:32,700
S1: of the population has this prestige TV streamer and they

725
00:34:32,700 --> 00:34:35,790
S1: are the only people who are watching these really amazing shows,

726
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,910
S1: it's like if a tree falls in the woods and

727
00:34:38,910 --> 00:34:40,440
S1: no one's sad to hear it, did it fall like,

728
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,090
S1: I kind of worry about that in a way.

729
00:34:42,090 --> 00:34:43,860
S2: But you know, they are the same people who were

730
00:34:43,860 --> 00:34:46,950
S2: watching succession, right? The people you were talking about, succession.

731
00:34:46,950 --> 00:34:49,800
S2: Wasn't that like the numbers didn't really add up for

732
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,650
S2: succession in terms of were more people watching the latest

733
00:34:52,650 --> 00:34:55,890
S2: reruns on NCIS? Of course they were. So the people

734
00:34:55,890 --> 00:34:58,260
S2: you're talking about, you're all still going to be having

735
00:34:58,260 --> 00:35:00,480
S2: the same conversation. You're just going to be subscribing to

736
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,680
S2: one channel.

737
00:35:01,950 --> 00:35:03,660
S3: Like, I see I see what you're saying, and I

738
00:35:03,660 --> 00:35:07,230
S3: think it's going to increasingly get more fragmented. But yeah,

739
00:35:07,230 --> 00:35:10,230
S3: it just it just kind of like worries me that,

740
00:35:10,230 --> 00:35:13,170
S3: I mean, it is we've all so plugged into this

741
00:35:13,170 --> 00:35:15,719
S3: machine and it becomes like this content feeder for everyone

742
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,120
S3: and the entire ecosystem. And like we saw it with succession,

743
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,460
S3: how we all like. And it was it was nice.

744
00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:22,350
S3: It was a nice collective viewing experience. I think people

745
00:35:22,350 --> 00:35:24,750
S3: who are into that show, it was like that appointment

746
00:35:24,750 --> 00:35:27,420
S3: TV and everything. And then like, now that we're kind

747
00:35:27,420 --> 00:35:30,330
S3: of facing this weird future where audiences are like, I'm

748
00:35:30,330 --> 00:35:33,390
S3: just watching this tiny thing and you're watching this thing like, yeah,

749
00:35:33,390 --> 00:35:36,030
S3: it just paints a kind of bleak picture. I think.

750
00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:39,029
S1: I actually didn't expect you to be as pessimistic as me. Thomas,

751
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:41,730
S1: on this. I sort of thought maybe you'd be the optimist,

752
00:35:41,730 --> 00:35:44,190
S1: and Mel and I would be, like, languishing in terms.

753
00:35:44,190 --> 00:35:47,580
S1: I'm a little bit surprised at how and like, I

754
00:35:47,580 --> 00:35:49,290
S1: don't mean that in a negative way, Mel. Like, I

755
00:35:49,290 --> 00:35:52,500
S1: think it's good to have a rosier view because I

756
00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:57,720
S1: think I have been pretty deep in like. Okay. We

757
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,040
S1: live in an era where the concentration of media, in

758
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,040
S1: terms of who makes it more distributed is more than ever.

759
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,360
S1: Like these companies who run there's like three giant media

760
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,260
S1: companies left in America who make and distribute all this stuff.

761
00:36:12,270 --> 00:36:15,600
S1: Corporate profits are sky high. Hollywood is on strike to

762
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,730
S1: try and get a piece of the pie. The volume

763
00:36:17,730 --> 00:36:19,680
S1: of high quality stuff is going down. The volume of

764
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,770
S1: low quality, largely non scripted stuff is going up. Everything's fragmented.

765
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,680
S1: No one's watching the same stuff. We're living in different worlds.

766
00:36:27,710 --> 00:36:30,050
S1: Nothing about this looks good. So it's sort of nice

767
00:36:30,050 --> 00:36:32,240
S1: to have you just kind of cut through that a

768
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,130
S1: bit and be like, calm the fuck down. We're still

769
00:36:34,130 --> 00:36:36,320
S1: going to get good shows and it's still going to

770
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,690
S1: be the same weirdo nerds like us who watch it.

771
00:36:38,690 --> 00:36:41,750
S1: Not not the masses who watch Big Bang Theory.

772
00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:44,270
S3: Yeah, but the problem is that Mel's version of prestige

773
00:36:44,270 --> 00:36:47,150
S3: TV is like The Queen's Gambit and stuff. So there

774
00:36:47,150 --> 00:36:49,700
S3: will be shows coming out. Look at all this prestige

775
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:51,560
S3: TV we have and it's like, all of this is rubbish.

776
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,470
S2: I also think maybe, I mean, I agree my outlook

777
00:36:54,469 --> 00:36:57,620
S2: is more optimistic, but I think it's rooted in cynicism

778
00:36:57,620 --> 00:37:01,100
S2: because I don't think I have that much belief that

779
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:03,770
S2: art always rises to the top of the pile when

780
00:37:03,770 --> 00:37:06,350
S2: it comes to capitalism, and I don't think it does. Like,

781
00:37:06,350 --> 00:37:09,259
S2: I think art getting art made, good art made is

782
00:37:09,260 --> 00:37:11,989
S2: a struggle. And yeah, maybe TV has had a wealth

783
00:37:11,989 --> 00:37:14,150
S2: of it for a while. But you know, when you

784
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:16,130
S2: look at the numbers, like if Netflix is putting on

785
00:37:16,130 --> 00:37:19,340
S2: shows that aren't prestige, it's because they're getting numbers. And

786
00:37:19,340 --> 00:37:22,490
S2: so I guess my view is kind of that art

787
00:37:22,489 --> 00:37:25,460
S2: is never going to be what is popular, because if

788
00:37:25,460 --> 00:37:28,160
S2: something's popular, it's not always great art or it's popular

789
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,590
S2: at that time, but it doesn't stand the test of time.

790
00:37:30,590 --> 00:37:32,000
S1: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And

791
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:33,950
S1: I think this is back to the kind of main

792
00:37:33,950 --> 00:37:35,690
S1: thrust of the show, which is that I think we're

793
00:37:35,690 --> 00:37:38,359
S1: really lucky to have a lot of really great art made,

794
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,989
S1: because we lived in this bubble of like, cheap money

795
00:37:41,989 --> 00:37:44,030
S1: and cheap money and streaming for a while, and now

796
00:37:44,030 --> 00:37:46,219
S1: things are sort of settling. I just think we're going

797
00:37:46,219 --> 00:37:48,319
S1: to be living through an adjustment phase that is going

798
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,870
S1: to take a little bit of getting used to. The

799
00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:53,180
S1: other thing on this I wanted to touch on, we

800
00:37:53,180 --> 00:37:55,219
S1: don't talk about these shows that much, even though they

801
00:37:55,219 --> 00:37:56,839
S1: are the biggest shows in the world. It's like the

802
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,440
S1: Disney Star Wars Marvel thing, right? You guys like a

803
00:38:00,650 --> 00:38:02,510
S1: real Marvel or Star Wars hit? No.

804
00:38:02,510 --> 00:38:05,090
S2: And therefore we don't put it in our prestige TV category,

805
00:38:05,090 --> 00:38:07,580
S2: though I'm sure some people would write because they have

806
00:38:07,580 --> 00:38:08,030
S2: all those.

807
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,660
S3: I would say that even despite not being a marvel man,

808
00:38:11,660 --> 00:38:15,410
S3: I would probably say The Mandalorian accepted as prestige.

809
00:38:15,410 --> 00:38:17,990
S1: Yeah, and in Star Wars Land, like Andor was like

810
00:38:17,989 --> 00:38:20,690
S1: a recent show that was like, generally considered. Tony Gilroy,

811
00:38:20,690 --> 00:38:23,660
S1: who wrote, you know, has written a bunch of great films,

812
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,810
S1: wrote that, and was good. I, for my sins, have

813
00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:29,870
S1: seen every single Marvel film and TV show and every

814
00:38:29,870 --> 00:38:31,190
S1: single Star Wars film, and I am.

815
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:33,320
S3: So blown away by that. For someone who doesn't really

816
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,230
S3: stay home at night, you still watch a lot of TV.

817
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:38,310
S3: I just don't understand when it's happened.

818
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,029
S2: When he was sick last week. Just a.

819
00:38:40,070 --> 00:38:43,730
S1: Marvel. My housemate says the same thing. He's like every morning,

820
00:38:43,730 --> 00:38:46,730
S1: you know, he you come home like quite late and

821
00:38:46,730 --> 00:38:48,860
S1: then in the morning you're up and you're like, you

822
00:38:48,860 --> 00:38:52,700
S1: seen like these seven shows, bro. I don't love Marvel,

823
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,660
S1: but I have always thought it's part of my job

824
00:38:56,660 --> 00:38:58,730
S1: in a way to be across it because of how

825
00:38:58,730 --> 00:39:00,650
S1: massive it is. The reason why I bring it up

826
00:39:00,650 --> 00:39:04,850
S1: in this conversation is because. That ecosystem is also going

827
00:39:04,850 --> 00:39:08,420
S1: through like a lot of grim stuff at the moment,

828
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:12,440
S1: like the last few Marvel shows have not worked like

829
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,200
S1: Loki season two, which is the big one out now,

830
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,710
S1: is just like getting critically panned. It is very hard

831
00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:20,690
S1: to watch its Tom Hiddleston like there's a lot of

832
00:39:20,690 --> 00:39:23,330
S1: good bits to it, but it is not going well.

833
00:39:23,330 --> 00:39:25,850
S1: And same with Star Wars. Like the big show this

834
00:39:25,850 --> 00:39:29,180
S1: year was this one Ahsoka with Rosario Dawson and Australia's

835
00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:31,610
S1: Natasha Lupo. So this is supposed to be a big,

836
00:39:31,610 --> 00:39:34,100
S1: great show. It is so hard to watch. It is

837
00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:36,140
S1: like no one in this show seems to have been

838
00:39:36,140 --> 00:39:38,450
S1: on set at the same time, so they're not like

839
00:39:38,450 --> 00:39:42,859
S1: interacting with one another properly. And this is related to

840
00:39:42,860 --> 00:39:45,290
S1: the prestige convo. It's slightly adjacent to it. Just because

841
00:39:45,290 --> 00:39:48,680
S1: these shows were so big and so reliable for so long.

842
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,330
S1: And I think again, there was this huge like. Turn

843
00:39:52,330 --> 00:39:54,610
S1: the knob to like max amount of volume. And they

844
00:39:54,610 --> 00:39:56,560
S1: pumped so many of them out. And I think the

845
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,930
S1: quality has gone down. So I just bring it up

846
00:39:58,930 --> 00:40:01,450
S1: because we don't love talking about them. We're not obsessed

847
00:40:01,450 --> 00:40:03,430
S1: with them. But I do know that people listen to

848
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:05,980
S1: the show, are interested in those shows, and I think

849
00:40:05,980 --> 00:40:08,440
S1: it's worth acknowledging that even in that space, which is

850
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,560
S1: driven by like hectic fandom, there is a big conversation

851
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,880
S1: happening about declining quality in that kind of ecosystem.

852
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,190
S3: Yeah, it's funny because I'm not really a big into that.

853
00:40:18,190 --> 00:40:20,580
S3: But I remember especially this kind of coincided with like

854
00:40:20,590 --> 00:40:23,229
S3: when Netflix was just so all encompassing that everyone just

855
00:40:23,230 --> 00:40:25,300
S3: watched basically everything that was on there. And I was

856
00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:27,759
S3: I was quite big into Daredevil and Jessica Jones. Jessica

857
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:28,720
S3: Jones was really good.

858
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,150
S1: Jessica Jones was amazing. That was a really great Netflix

859
00:40:31,150 --> 00:40:32,020
S1: early Marvel show.

860
00:40:32,020 --> 00:40:34,330
S3: Yeah, yeah. And so I was kind of hooked. And

861
00:40:34,330 --> 00:40:38,410
S3: then I must say, Luke Cage and Iron Fist both

862
00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:41,200
S3: really bad shows. And then like even to the point,

863
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,170
S3: I was like, even I am shocked that these people

864
00:40:44,170 --> 00:40:46,240
S3: have their own, these characters have their own shows, and

865
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:47,590
S3: they just kind of went so hard and was like

866
00:40:47,590 --> 00:40:50,500
S3: The Defenders, The Punisher, Jessica Jones season two. And it

867
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:52,720
S3: was just like every other week there was a new

868
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,480
S3: Marvel spin off and they yeah, they definitely got two gradient.

869
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,040
S3: It was like too much of a good thing. And

870
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:58,930
S3: like then that was kind of, I guess like set

871
00:40:58,930 --> 00:41:00,310
S3: the benchmark for where we're at now.

872
00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:02,680
S2: The other thing I think is worth mentioning, like we're

873
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,210
S2: talking about these big blockbuster franchises, but I do think

874
00:41:07,210 --> 00:41:10,930
S2: that a streamer's kind of face tougher financial circumstances as

875
00:41:10,930 --> 00:41:13,630
S2: the market shrinks. I do worry that the kind of

876
00:41:13,630 --> 00:41:16,870
S2: big losers will be local productions for Australia. And there's

877
00:41:16,870 --> 00:41:19,030
S2: a very live debate in Australia at the moment about

878
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:22,630
S2: putting on content quotas on the streamers, but I think

879
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:26,379
S2: that is a risk that local productions will stop being

880
00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:29,380
S2: a high priority for streamers, as they're looking to kind

881
00:41:29,380 --> 00:41:31,870
S2: of make more of a niche market for themselves.

882
00:41:31,870 --> 00:41:33,400
S1: Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think it's

883
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,200
S1: worth acknowledging that, like telling Australian stories in a market

884
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,709
S1: the size of Australia is not always the most profitable

885
00:41:41,710 --> 00:41:45,840
S1: thing for large multinational corporations like Amazon, Netflix, Disney are

886
00:41:45,850 --> 00:41:48,430
S1: happy to operate in this market, Hoover up millions of

887
00:41:48,430 --> 00:41:52,060
S1: dollars in terms of subscription fees. And yet, I mean, look,

888
00:41:52,060 --> 00:41:54,460
S1: Netflix has obviously made a bunch of Australian shows, right?

889
00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:56,800
S1: We've covered them. We talk about them a lot, but

890
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,799
S1: as a proportion of their total spend, like, how much

891
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,050
S1: is it? That's why there is this conversation about the

892
00:42:02,050 --> 00:42:05,650
S1: government potentially passing laws to force them to. And I

893
00:42:05,650 --> 00:42:08,710
S1: think that if you want to see Australian stories told,

894
00:42:08,710 --> 00:42:12,070
S1: you need those laws passed because there's no profit imperative

895
00:42:12,070 --> 00:42:13,570
S1: to do it. This is the whole point of of

896
00:42:13,570 --> 00:42:15,970
S1: this conversation, I think was saying is that the best

897
00:42:15,969 --> 00:42:19,569
S1: art isn't made in television because it makes heaps of money.

898
00:42:19,570 --> 00:42:22,690
S1: It's made because creators managed to trick the right executive

899
00:42:22,690 --> 00:42:24,430
S1: at the right time to give them a bunch of

900
00:42:24,430 --> 00:42:28,210
S1: money or like what we're talking about. The government forces

901
00:42:28,210 --> 00:42:30,520
S1: them to do it. I think this is like an

902
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,560
S1: ongoing conversation. I'm sorry if this got a little bit

903
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,650
S1: like in the weeds in terms of dollars and cents,

904
00:42:35,650 --> 00:42:38,860
S1: but I've been thinking a lot lately about how the

905
00:42:38,860 --> 00:42:42,760
S1: culture we consume TV, but also movies and also music

906
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,330
S1: is so reflective of the economic conditions around it and

907
00:42:46,330 --> 00:42:50,890
S1: who controls distribution and who controls commissioning. And because it

908
00:42:50,890 --> 00:42:54,070
S1: is so much more hyper concentrated than it's ever been

909
00:42:54,070 --> 00:42:57,310
S1: and so much more fragmented than it's ever been, and

910
00:42:57,310 --> 00:43:00,009
S1: the strike stuff is going on, it's made me think

911
00:43:00,010 --> 00:43:02,920
S1: it's really hard to talk about TV and culture without

912
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:08,290
S1: talking about. The economic basis for it, you know, the superstructure, blah, blah, blah.

913
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:09,790
S1: Marx had some stuff to say about this.

914
00:43:09,969 --> 00:43:11,649
S2: I'm sure Thomas is all across that.

915
00:43:11,739 --> 00:43:13,270
S3: I was going to do a thing on Marx, but

916
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:15,190
S3: you've done that now, so I will instead move on

917
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:19,060
S3: to the latest report from the Australian Communications Media Authority, ACMA,

918
00:43:19,180 --> 00:43:20,770
S3: which actually came out this morning. And it looks at

919
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,609
S3: how much has been spent on Australian content. So subscription

920
00:43:24,610 --> 00:43:28,330
S3: video on demand providers that includes Disney Plus, Netflix, Paramount Plus,

921
00:43:28,330 --> 00:43:33,640
S3: Prime and Stan spent $324 million in the last financial year,

922
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,930
S3: which is down from 335,000,000in the previous year. So that's

923
00:43:37,930 --> 00:43:42,340
S3: the 35 million decrease in commissioned program investment, mainly across

924
00:43:42,340 --> 00:43:45,550
S3: adult drama and documentary. So yeah, it's interesting, like we

925
00:43:45,550 --> 00:43:49,089
S3: are kind of seeing a kind of downward slope in

926
00:43:49,090 --> 00:43:51,680
S3: terms of what's being commissioned and how much is being spent.

927
00:43:51,700 --> 00:43:53,620
S3: So yeah, I mean, it was if it wasn't already

928
00:43:53,620 --> 00:43:57,100
S3: hard enough for like local programming to get up on

929
00:43:57,100 --> 00:43:59,650
S3: these like massive streamers who rely so much on just like,

930
00:43:59,650 --> 00:44:03,160
S3: you know, easy wins, less is also being spent. So

931
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:04,140
S3: interesting times.

932
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:05,950
S1: Yeah. And I think if there's a through line from

933
00:44:05,950 --> 00:44:09,670
S1: this conversation we've had, it's that expect there to be

934
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:13,450
S1: less television for the foreseeable future. Expect there to be

935
00:44:13,450 --> 00:44:16,120
S1: less of the mail. Don't get mad at me for

936
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,420
S1: saying this. Prestige television. It's not all game over, but

937
00:44:19,420 --> 00:44:20,860
S1: like this is a thing I think we have to

938
00:44:20,860 --> 00:44:23,469
S1: get used to. And it'll be interesting in terms of

939
00:44:23,469 --> 00:44:26,440
S1: conversations we have at work and on this podcast about

940
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,779
S1: what we cover, how we cover, because I think we've

941
00:44:28,780 --> 00:44:31,120
S1: been talking about what is the next succession, what is

942
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,029
S1: the next show that we might recap episode by episode.

943
00:44:34,030 --> 00:44:36,100
S1: And there might not be one for a while, but

944
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:37,940
S1: I'm going to be very excited when we find it.

945
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,600
S1: The last thing I wanted to do in this conversation

946
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:45,070
S1: was ask you guys to share some, like, hidden prestige

947
00:44:45,070 --> 00:44:48,670
S1: gems that that have existed on these maybe smaller streamers

948
00:44:48,670 --> 00:44:51,820
S1: that maybe we missed in this big glut. We've been

949
00:44:51,820 --> 00:44:54,250
S1: talking about. Mel. Jonah suggests something.

950
00:44:54,250 --> 00:44:56,170
S2: I do, and I will say, until we get the

951
00:44:56,170 --> 00:44:59,950
S2: next big TV show, we'll just have definitional definitional debates

952
00:44:59,950 --> 00:45:02,620
S2: or not on repeat. So that'll keep us going for

953
00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:03,069
S2: a while.

954
00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:04,630
S1: People love meta conversations, you.

955
00:45:04,630 --> 00:45:07,960
S2: Know, I will mention an Australian prestige show. We're just

956
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,770
S2: talking about how important local drama is. Mr. Inbetween. It

957
00:45:11,770 --> 00:45:14,500
S2: is amazing. I feel like it's had new life because

958
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:18,140
S2: all of the episodes and seasons landed on binge are,

959
00:45:18,219 --> 00:45:20,859
S2: I believe it was last year. This is written by

960
00:45:20,860 --> 00:45:24,520
S2: Scott Ryan, who plays Ray Shoesmith. He's a killer for hire.

961
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,810
S2: It's also got Matt Nable, Damien Harriman, Brooke Satchwell, Nash

962
00:45:28,810 --> 00:45:32,980
S2: Edgerton directed it. It's dark comedy. He kind of plays

963
00:45:32,980 --> 00:45:36,100
S2: this killer for hire, but he's got heart. He's murdering

964
00:45:36,100 --> 00:45:38,229
S2: one moment, playing with his daughter. Who's next? It's just

965
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:40,810
S2: so well crafted and put together. And I know Scott

966
00:45:40,810 --> 00:45:43,090
S2: Ryan struggled for a while to to get it made.

967
00:45:43,090 --> 00:45:45,250
S2: And it was launched in the US actually before it

968
00:45:45,250 --> 00:45:48,489
S2: came here. But it's just a fantastic show and if

969
00:45:48,489 --> 00:45:51,130
S2: people haven't watched it yet, it's well worth checking out.

970
00:45:51,130 --> 00:45:52,779
S2: I know you guys both love it, right? Yeah, it's.

971
00:45:52,780 --> 00:45:53,350
S1: A great show.

972
00:45:53,410 --> 00:45:55,930
S3: It's great. I was really into it. Very funny. He's

973
00:45:55,930 --> 00:45:59,620
S3: so great. The lead actor and yeah, it's it's it

974
00:45:59,620 --> 00:46:01,870
S3: really didn't get like I think it did. People loved

975
00:46:01,870 --> 00:46:04,270
S3: it but it didn't seem to get the like hype.

976
00:46:04,270 --> 00:46:05,680
S1: I think it got quite like, I don't know if

977
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,540
S1: I've got huge numbers in the States, but the critical

978
00:46:07,540 --> 00:46:10,630
S1: response there was pretty was pretty great. I think. Thomas,

979
00:46:10,630 --> 00:46:12,130
S1: you've got one that I think is going to fracture

980
00:46:12,130 --> 00:46:14,080
S1: our little alliance on this.

981
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,730
S2: Episode, just on this episode.

982
00:46:15,730 --> 00:46:18,100
S1: On this definitional question of prestige television.

983
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:20,469
S3: I know it's so annoying because I've spent I've been

984
00:46:20,469 --> 00:46:23,020
S3: dying on this hill of prestige. It's so obvious to say,

985
00:46:23,020 --> 00:46:24,250
S3: and now we're going to have an argument about it.

986
00:46:24,250 --> 00:46:28,660
S3: But my one is, this is a fucking good show, man.

987
00:46:28,660 --> 00:46:31,390
S3: It's how to make it in America. It's an HBO show.

988
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:34,450
S3: It ran for two seasons in 2010, so the show

989
00:46:34,450 --> 00:46:36,310
S3: has become like a bit of a cult hit. It

990
00:46:36,310 --> 00:46:38,890
S3: basically followed like these two young 20 year olds in

991
00:46:38,890 --> 00:46:40,779
S3: America who are kind of like trying to make their

992
00:46:40,780 --> 00:46:43,180
S3: version of the American Dream. It was like part of

993
00:46:43,180 --> 00:46:47,350
S3: the like, entourage era of TV, which I know hasn't

994
00:46:47,350 --> 00:46:50,720
S3: aged well. But this was different. It starred, she starred.

995
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:52,000
S3: Kid Cudi was in it.

996
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:53,680
S1: Yeah. Kid Katie was one of my favorite parts into

997
00:46:53,690 --> 00:46:54,940
S1: this show. And like, Bell.

998
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,440
S3: Bell's so good. So it basically was like Bryan Greenberg

999
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,510
S3: and Victor Rusk, these two characters, and they kind of

1000
00:47:01,510 --> 00:47:02,920
S3: like trying to make it in the New York fashion scene.

1001
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,090
S3: But the thing that was so great about it was

1002
00:47:04,090 --> 00:47:06,609
S3: it was like at the start of like hustle culture

1003
00:47:06,610 --> 00:47:09,069
S3: and streetwear culture and, and like, you know, just as

1004
00:47:09,070 --> 00:47:11,670
S3: social media was becoming so important to our everyday lives. Yeah.

1005
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,830
S1: Remember the graphics were very like Instagram, early Instagram. Yeah.

1006
00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:15,490
S1: Like sound and.

1007
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:16,960
S3: Filter and stuff. So it was like it was like

1008
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,970
S3: very cool. And the fact that Kid Cudi was in it,

1009
00:47:18,969 --> 00:47:21,910
S3: they showed like amazing party scenes and it was like

1010
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:25,000
S3: it had the, I guess, like the zaniness of an entourage,

1011
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,550
S3: but it had like something more to say. And it

1012
00:47:27,550 --> 00:47:29,500
S3: got canceled after two seasons. It is one of those shows,

1013
00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:31,150
S3: like if you Google how to make it in America,

1014
00:47:31,150 --> 00:47:32,890
S3: there's a million forms. People are like, bring it back,

1015
00:47:32,890 --> 00:47:35,800
S3: bring it back. And Bryan Greenberg and Victor Russell actually

1016
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,720
S3: a couple of years ago, like put an Instagram post

1017
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:38,950
S3: up and they were like hanging out in some diner

1018
00:47:38,950 --> 00:47:40,210
S3: and people like, oh my God, how did it make

1019
00:47:40,210 --> 00:47:42,820
S3: an America's coming back? So yeah, look, to me, it

1020
00:47:42,820 --> 00:47:46,180
S3: is a hidden prestige TV gem. I loved it and

1021
00:47:46,180 --> 00:47:47,650
S3: I miss it and I think everyone should go and

1022
00:47:47,650 --> 00:47:49,989
S3: watch it, but I know oseman you don't think it counts?

1023
00:47:50,230 --> 00:47:52,989
S1: Well, you've spoken so earnestly about it. I don't really

1024
00:47:52,989 --> 00:47:54,850
S1: want to cut you down. I mean, I think it's

1025
00:47:54,850 --> 00:47:57,129
S1: a fine show. It sort of lost the whole point

1026
00:47:57,130 --> 00:47:58,870
S1: of the show is this guys trying to make a

1027
00:47:58,870 --> 00:48:02,140
S1: jeans brand, which is sort of annoying. I'm like, fuck off, dude,

1028
00:48:02,140 --> 00:48:04,890
S1: get a job. And then I think. The second season

1029
00:48:04,890 --> 00:48:08,640
S1: just becomes about his mate. And like Luis Guzman, who's

1030
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,320
S1: like this weird character actor in a bunch of stuff

1031
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,300
S1: pops up and he's just trying to sell this, like,

1032
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:15,410
S1: energy drink. The show lost the plot very quickly, I think.

1033
00:48:15,420 --> 00:48:16,969
S1: I think that was a good reason it wasn't renewed.

1034
00:48:16,980 --> 00:48:19,430
S3: This is like pre Logan Paul with Prime. Like they

1035
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:22,350
S3: were very like they were prophesying the future.

1036
00:48:22,350 --> 00:48:23,970
S1: Every celebrity's got an energy drink.

1037
00:48:23,969 --> 00:48:25,530
S3: So yeah check it out.

1038
00:48:26,190 --> 00:48:30,870
S1: Fair. Yeah. Cool. I got a couple and these two

1039
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:32,970
S1: are I say this a lot and people get sick

1040
00:48:32,969 --> 00:48:34,620
S1: of me saying this. I genuinely think these are two

1041
00:48:34,620 --> 00:48:39,150
S1: of the best pieces of art that have been created

1042
00:48:39,150 --> 00:48:42,450
S1: in the last decade, and not enough people have watched from.

1043
00:48:42,450 --> 00:48:44,969
S1: The first one is Watchmen, which came out in 2019

1044
00:48:44,969 --> 00:48:48,029
S1: on HBO. It's out here on binge. It's an adaptation

1045
00:48:48,030 --> 00:48:52,080
S1: of the very, very, very well known Alan Moore graphic novel.

1046
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,990
S1: It's been done by Damon Lindelof, who's really well known

1047
00:48:54,989 --> 00:48:57,509
S1: for The Lost and The Leftovers. There was like a

1048
00:48:57,510 --> 00:49:01,410
S1: pretty average, mediocre film adaptation of this by Zack Snyder

1049
00:49:01,620 --> 00:49:04,319
S1: a while ago. The show is amazing. It's like it

1050
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,049
S1: scratches all my itches in terms of what I want

1051
00:49:07,050 --> 00:49:10,980
S1: from TV. It is about the current state of America

1052
00:49:10,980 --> 00:49:14,340
S1: and decay in modern America. It's about the legacy of

1053
00:49:14,340 --> 00:49:18,390
S1: American imperialism, race relations, police violence. It's wrapped in this

1054
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:21,990
S1: like super quirky sci fi mystery. Don't really know what's

1055
00:49:21,989 --> 00:49:24,810
S1: going on. The opening to this is so gripping. It

1056
00:49:24,810 --> 00:49:29,130
S1: opens with footage of the Tulsa massacre in 1921, when

1057
00:49:29,130 --> 00:49:32,870
S1: dozens of black people and hundreds more were injured in like,

1058
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,080
S1: a race riot and in fact helped, like re, popularized

1059
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,230
S1: the Tulsa massacre in the American consciousness like it is now.

1060
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:43,140
S1: Something people talk about that they didn't as much before

1061
00:49:43,140 --> 00:49:46,260
S1: this show came out. And then the first scene that's

1062
00:49:46,260 --> 00:49:49,560
S1: set in, like the real time of the show is

1063
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,920
S1: these white supremacists doing an ambush and killing these police,

1064
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:54,899
S1: and you're not quite sure what's going on. And then

1065
00:49:54,900 --> 00:49:58,440
S1: futures crushed up just drops and you're like, this is

1066
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,570
S1: straight out of my brain in terms of what I

1067
00:50:00,570 --> 00:50:04,470
S1: want from TV. So go watch the show. The other

1068
00:50:04,469 --> 00:50:06,510
S1: one is a show called station 11. This was an

1069
00:50:06,510 --> 00:50:09,360
S1: adaptation of a book Mel you'll be excited to know

1070
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:12,719
S1: by Canadian writer Emily Saint John Mandel. It's a novel

1071
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,800
S1: about a pandemic and how society rebuilds after pandemic and

1072
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,980
S1: what is like, important. Turns out it's like family and

1073
00:50:19,980 --> 00:50:22,890
S1: love and art. This was a really interesting production because

1074
00:50:22,890 --> 00:50:26,460
S1: they started filming it before the actual pandemic hit, and

1075
00:50:26,460 --> 00:50:29,430
S1: then when the actual pandemic hit, they're like, should we

1076
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:31,140
S1: make the show? This doesn't feel like we should be

1077
00:50:31,140 --> 00:50:33,840
S1: making this show right now, but they managed to make

1078
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,840
S1: something quite beautiful and poignant about the moment we lived

1079
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,049
S1: in and went through. It's great. It's on Apple TV+.

1080
00:50:40,050 --> 00:50:42,960
S1: I think those two shows, they exist. If you're looking

1081
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,300
S1: for something to watch and you're bemoaning the state of

1082
00:50:45,300 --> 00:50:48,390
S1: TV right now as we have been, give all of

1083
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:59,950
S1: these shows a watch, even how to make it in America. Okay,

1084
00:50:59,950 --> 00:51:02,590
S1: we've just in some recommendations, but we still are going

1085
00:51:02,590 --> 00:51:07,569
S1: to do our Impress Your Friends recommendations because we are

1086
00:51:07,570 --> 00:51:10,870
S1: nice people who want you all to have things to consume. Mel,

1087
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:11,950
S1: you can go first this time.

1088
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,310
S2: As you want shows about the current state of America.

1089
00:51:15,310 --> 00:51:18,670
S2: You want shows about the state of decay. Have I

1090
00:51:18,670 --> 00:51:22,660
S2: got the ultimate show for you? I've been into the Kardashians.

1091
00:51:22,660 --> 00:51:25,480
S2: I'm picking this firstly because I think I need a rebrand.

1092
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:26,950
S2: On the podcast.

1093
00:51:27,310 --> 00:51:28,810
S3: You're recommending one of the most popular.

1094
00:51:28,810 --> 00:51:29,650
S4: TV shows on.

1095
00:51:29,770 --> 00:51:32,200
S2: Prestige. I mean, last week it was The Equalizer. This

1096
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,319
S2: week it's the Kardashians using brawn across it all.

1097
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,570
S1: Yeah, impress your friends. Hey, I heard this great show

1098
00:51:37,570 --> 00:51:40,420
S1: on this podcast. It's called The Kardashians. You're aware of.

1099
00:51:40,420 --> 00:51:41,859
S1: Like this. This is about.

1100
00:51:41,860 --> 00:51:42,370
S3: A small time.

1101
00:51:42,370 --> 00:51:43,870
S1: And the show around them.

1102
00:51:44,739 --> 00:51:47,680
S2: Okay. No, I think there's something interesting going on in

1103
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,770
S2: this season, particularly since the Kardashians went to Disney. But

1104
00:51:50,770 --> 00:51:54,430
S2: I think in this season in particular, because at its heart,

1105
00:51:54,430 --> 00:51:58,240
S2: it's a fight between Kim Kardashian, the kind of matriarch

1106
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,290
S2: apart from Kris Kardashian of the Kardashian clan and Kourtney Kardashian.

1107
00:52:02,290 --> 00:52:06,160
S2: And in real time, you were watching this family decide

1108
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,440
S2: about what they want their legacy to be and what

1109
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,509
S2: they want their family to be in the future. And

1110
00:52:10,510 --> 00:52:13,540
S2: this sisterly fight Kourtney kind of wants out of the family,

1111
00:52:13,540 --> 00:52:15,580
S2: doesn't really want to be as involved in it anymore.

1112
00:52:15,580 --> 00:52:18,430
S2: Kim wants to double down on all the opportunities. I

1113
00:52:18,430 --> 00:52:21,759
S2: think that's really interesting. And also what they've added into

1114
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,620
S2: the show lately, increasingly, is that the Kardashians reflection on

1115
00:52:26,620 --> 00:52:29,890
S2: their own show. So you're watching them watch edits of

1116
00:52:29,890 --> 00:52:32,740
S2: the show, and those edits are having kind of consequences

1117
00:52:32,739 --> 00:52:35,109
S2: on the entire you're smiling at me, Thomas. I'm not

1118
00:52:35,110 --> 00:52:36,129
S2: convincing you here, am I?

1119
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,439
S3: No, no, no, no, because I was going to say, like,

1120
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,290
S3: I actually have been watching this, like in the background

1121
00:52:41,290 --> 00:52:43,060
S3: as my wife watches it. And I've never been into

1122
00:52:43,060 --> 00:52:45,870
S3: the Kardashians and, but it is like super gripping and I,

1123
00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:48,489
S3: it annoys me when people are just like, you know,

1124
00:52:48,489 --> 00:52:50,800
S3: write the Kardashians off is like, if you're into that,

1125
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,390
S3: it's just like, so cringe. And they're a punch line

1126
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:54,609
S3: because like, there are some of the most recognizable people

1127
00:52:54,610 --> 00:52:56,440
S3: in the world right now. You can't ignore that. And

1128
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,989
S3: the show is like strangely gripping and especially that storyline

1129
00:52:58,989 --> 00:53:01,150
S3: between Kim and Kourtney, because I'm just like, this is,

1130
00:53:01,150 --> 00:53:03,820
S3: you know, it is like a version of succession happening

1131
00:53:03,820 --> 00:53:05,290
S3: in fucking Calabasas.

1132
00:53:05,290 --> 00:53:07,960
S2: And the narrative that is going on around the show

1133
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,690
S2: is actually affecting the plot of the show. Yeah, the.

1134
00:53:10,690 --> 00:53:13,180
S1: Nellie as meta as this podcast. It's good. Totally.

1135
00:53:13,180 --> 00:53:15,880
S2: They're like actor and audience at once. It like, blows

1136
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:17,950
S2: my mind. I think there's a lot to unpack.

1137
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,410
S1: It's a good wreck. Like I have seen all of

1138
00:53:20,410 --> 00:53:23,169
S1: keeping Up with like the first original series, I think,

1139
00:53:23,170 --> 00:53:25,750
S1: on E! And then I watched the first season of

1140
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:28,180
S1: the New one and kind of fell off like I

1141
00:53:28,180 --> 00:53:30,370
S1: just was a bit like over it, and the narratives

1142
00:53:30,370 --> 00:53:32,650
S1: weren't gripping me. But I have heard a lot of

1143
00:53:32,650 --> 00:53:35,710
S1: similar things about the last few weeks, and in this

1144
00:53:35,710 --> 00:53:39,010
S1: season in particular, which feels more interesting and seems to

1145
00:53:39,010 --> 00:53:42,280
S1: have more to say about them, but also like the

1146
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,609
S1: reality TV paradigm and how that is like collapsing in

1147
00:53:45,610 --> 00:53:48,580
S1: on the real world now. It seems really fascinating.

1148
00:53:48,580 --> 00:53:50,950
S2: Yeah, totally. And there's still all the annoying parts, you know,

1149
00:53:50,950 --> 00:53:53,230
S2: there's a lot of self promotion and there's promotion of

1150
00:53:53,230 --> 00:53:55,540
S2: their individual brands, and there are kind of set up

1151
00:53:55,540 --> 00:53:58,870
S2: moments that are there for, you know, obviously just TV

1152
00:53:58,870 --> 00:54:02,080
S2: viewing pleasure. But yeah, I think that question is what's

1153
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,850
S2: really interesting about this season. Great.

1154
00:54:03,850 --> 00:54:07,240
S1: The Kardashians little known show about a little known family.

1155
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:08,170
S1: You heard it here.

1156
00:54:08,770 --> 00:54:10,690
S2: Consider yourself impressed.

1157
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:12,460
S1: Thomas. You impressed us. What have you got?

1158
00:54:12,460 --> 00:54:15,160
S3: Okay, well, continuing the Freaky Friday theme of this part,

1159
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,800
S3: I am now becoming Melanie Cambria and recommending a book.

1160
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:18,700
S2: Welcome. You'll love it.

1161
00:54:19,090 --> 00:54:22,359
S3: So yes, I this is a book recommendation from Thomas

1162
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:23,140
S3: Mitchell who.

1163
00:54:23,140 --> 00:54:24,190
S2: Gave you this book.

1164
00:54:24,670 --> 00:54:25,690
S3: You gave me.

1165
00:54:26,050 --> 00:54:26,560
S5: Actually.

1166
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,210
S3: So the book is Death Valley by Melissa Broder. We

1167
00:54:31,210 --> 00:54:34,000
S3: both read and enjoyed her previous work, Milk Fed, which

1168
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,660
S3: was very, very kind of this darkly funny, absurd novel.

1169
00:54:37,780 --> 00:54:42,070
S3: This is very funny. Basically, our kind of narrator takes

1170
00:54:42,070 --> 00:54:43,960
S3: herself off in the middle of the California desert. She

1171
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,300
S3: stays at a depressing Best Western, like the kind of

1172
00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:48,220
S3: motel that everyone has stayed at at some point in

1173
00:54:48,219 --> 00:54:50,469
S3: their life. Usually when they're like in transit or having

1174
00:54:50,469 --> 00:54:53,530
S3: a very bad time. Both her husband and her father

1175
00:54:53,530 --> 00:54:56,440
S3: are currently in ICU for two separate issues, and both

1176
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,510
S3: are like kind of hanging on for dear life, and

1177
00:54:58,510 --> 00:55:01,030
S3: she just takes herself away and stays at this best

1178
00:55:01,030 --> 00:55:04,780
S3: Western and then has a kind of like transcendental trip

1179
00:55:04,780 --> 00:55:07,300
S3: to the desert where she stumbles upon this like magic

1180
00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:10,420
S3: cactus and she enters into the cactus and, you know,

1181
00:55:10,420 --> 00:55:13,090
S3: kind of like it gets it gets a weird, like

1182
00:55:13,090 --> 00:55:15,160
S3: a bit acid trippy. But she's. So the thing about

1183
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,730
S3: Melissa Brody's writing is she's so funny. It's very, very hilarious.

1184
00:55:18,730 --> 00:55:21,069
S3: It's very poignant. It's very all these things. As well

1185
00:55:21,070 --> 00:55:25,029
S3: as being quite topical and relevant. Her writing is so gripping,

1186
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:27,640
S3: and even though there are kind of like fantastical elements,

1187
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,310
S3: it feels rooted in the here and now. It's very funny.

1188
00:55:30,310 --> 00:55:32,230
S3: So it's Death Valley by Melissa Broder, and on top

1189
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:35,439
S3: of all that, the cover will look amazing on the gram.

1190
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,290
S3: It's kind of like it's playing with like light greens

1191
00:55:38,290 --> 00:55:40,870
S3: and yellows. There's a there's a cute illustration of the

1192
00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:43,750
S3: Death Valley cactus on the front. Like, if you chuck

1193
00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:45,460
S3: that in your tote and then you have like a

1194
00:55:45,460 --> 00:55:48,160
S3: macho lady in the background, I will like that shit.

1195
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:51,040
S3: So yeah, that's Death Valley by Melissa Broder.

1196
00:55:51,070 --> 00:55:54,129
S1: You're going to if you're going to Clavell Gordon's Bay,

1197
00:55:54,130 --> 00:55:56,710
S1: Fitzroy pool, this is the book you want to be

1198
00:55:56,710 --> 00:56:00,810
S1: seen reading. Correct. Summer. Do you guys remember the whole

1199
00:56:00,810 --> 00:56:02,400
S1: GameStop drama?

1200
00:56:02,739 --> 00:56:04,979
S3: I was I was obsessed with it. And I'm sad

1201
00:56:04,980 --> 00:56:06,180
S3: that I haven't seen this movie yet.

1202
00:56:06,420 --> 00:56:08,850
S1: How much money did you make or lose on that?

1203
00:56:09,330 --> 00:56:12,150
S3: That's a private matter and I won't be discussing that

1204
00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:14,070
S3: or the current state of my sportsbook account.

1205
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,609
S1: So yeah, you might remember a couple of years ago

1206
00:56:17,610 --> 00:56:22,650
S1: there was this crazy story Reddit subreddit, Wall Street Bets

1207
00:56:22,650 --> 00:56:28,200
S1: were all involved in pumping up the price of GameStop

1208
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,660
S1: shares because they were mad that a bunch of hedge

1209
00:56:30,660 --> 00:56:34,109
S1: funds were shorting those shares, and the price went astronomical.

1210
00:56:34,110 --> 00:56:35,160
S1: And a bunch of them made a bunch of money.

1211
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,380
S1: A bunch people lost a bunch of money. There was

1212
00:56:37,380 --> 00:56:40,830
S1: congressional hearings. It was all very exciting and revolutionary. And

1213
00:56:40,830 --> 00:56:43,620
S1: the memes are great. That has been turned into a

1214
00:56:43,620 --> 00:56:47,760
S1: docudrama called Dumb Money, actually directed by Craig Gillespie, who's

1215
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,690
S1: an Australian American writer and director. It stars Paul Dano,

1216
00:56:51,690 --> 00:56:55,560
S1: Shailene Woodley, America Ferrera, Seth Rogen. This is an interesting one.

1217
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,560
S1: I saw this on the weekend and it's an interesting

1218
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,410
S1: recommendation in the sense that I didn't love it. Like,

1219
00:57:01,410 --> 00:57:04,080
S1: I didn't think this was an incredible movie. I think

1220
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,700
S1: this movie is trying to be the Big Short in

1221
00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:11,160
S1: terms of like the way that it's edited. It's like

1222
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,739
S1: very fun. There's a lot of exposition in terms of

1223
00:57:13,739 --> 00:57:17,190
S1: how certain bits of the stock market work. There's a

1224
00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:20,250
S1: lot of like fun and music in it and montages

1225
00:57:20,250 --> 00:57:24,930
S1: and things. But by making itself look like The Big Short,

1226
00:57:24,930 --> 00:57:27,060
S1: it obviously makes you think about the Big Short, and

1227
00:57:27,060 --> 00:57:30,330
S1: it just isn't as good in terms of the characters,

1228
00:57:30,330 --> 00:57:33,360
S1: the story. Like we are really focused in on Paul Dano,

1229
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,060
S1: who plays this guy, roaring Kitty, who sort of kicked

1230
00:57:36,060 --> 00:57:38,970
S1: off the whole thing. There's a great cast around him,

1231
00:57:38,970 --> 00:57:42,870
S1: but they're pretty two dimensional, and you might be wondering

1232
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:46,080
S1: why I'm recommending this one. I didn't love it. It's

1233
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,980
S1: because even though I didn't think it sort of nailed

1234
00:57:49,980 --> 00:57:52,530
S1: what it was trying to do, it made me so

1235
00:57:52,530 --> 00:57:55,200
S1: angry in terms of like, this is the David and

1236
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,990
S1: Goliath story. They are not hiding the fact that this

1237
00:57:57,990 --> 00:58:00,570
S1: is about the little guys who just used the tools

1238
00:58:00,570 --> 00:58:02,850
S1: they had, and that was the internet, and like TikTok

1239
00:58:02,850 --> 00:58:05,730
S1: and Reddit to take on the big, evil, greedy hedge

1240
00:58:05,730 --> 00:58:09,120
S1: fund bros. And that is kind of true. Like that

1241
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:10,800
S1: is what happened. And then the rules were changed and

1242
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,200
S1: they're all kind of screwed over. And I walked out

1243
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:17,189
S1: being like, that wasn't an amazing movie, but I feel something, right?

1244
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:18,930
S1: And that's like a good experience to have. And there's

1245
00:58:18,930 --> 00:58:20,520
S1: a lot of movies you watch and you're like, what

1246
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:22,470
S1: was the point of that? What were they trying to say?

1247
00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:24,420
S1: This was entertaining. It was like a fun way to

1248
00:58:24,420 --> 00:58:27,480
S1: spend a couple of hours. And if it helps spark

1249
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,960
S1: or reignite this, like big question of how this is

1250
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,420
S1: really my theme of this pod. The system is rigged

1251
00:58:33,830 --> 00:58:35,280
S1: at this point in your life.

1252
00:58:35,430 --> 00:58:35,880
S6: Yeah.

1253
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,700
S1: And my entire life. Then I think that's like, that's good.

1254
00:58:38,700 --> 00:58:41,040
S1: That's good for a movie to do that. So it's

1255
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:43,740
S1: like a fun hang movie, I think, like if you're

1256
00:58:43,740 --> 00:58:45,330
S1: looking for a couple of hours to kill at the

1257
00:58:45,330 --> 00:58:47,130
S1: movies or when it comes on streaming, so I think

1258
00:58:47,130 --> 00:58:49,080
S1: it's worth watching. I think it'd be fun to do

1259
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,150
S1: a pod with you guys when we talk about like,

1260
00:58:51,150 --> 00:58:54,360
S1: this genre of like, finance film, like Wolf of Wall Street,

1261
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,670
S1: dumb Money, maybe that's something we can do when the

1262
00:58:56,670 --> 00:58:57,600
S1: next one comes out.

1263
00:58:57,630 --> 00:58:59,670
S2: Yes. And there are some good. Oh, well, there are some.

1264
00:58:59,670 --> 00:59:02,100
S2: Okay documentaries about this as well that are out at

1265
00:59:02,100 --> 00:59:04,050
S2: the moment. If you want to do extra viewing, can

1266
00:59:04,050 --> 00:59:07,320
S2: I just say, speaking of you feeling things I rewatched

1267
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,830
S2: Past Lives, I think it's now out to stream and

1268
00:59:10,830 --> 00:59:12,870
S2: all I can think about the whole time was wondering

1269
00:59:12,870 --> 00:59:15,720
S2: if this was where you cried. Like at which point

1270
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,640
S2: you got the feels and it was in my head

1271
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:19,500
S2: the whole time. One moment in particular, at the end,

1272
00:59:19,500 --> 00:59:21,990
S2: I was like, it was definitely that. It was that line.

1273
00:59:21,990 --> 00:59:23,550
S1: Which which bit? I can tell you, you can say

1274
00:59:23,550 --> 00:59:25,020
S1: it and I'll tell you whether it was the moment.

1275
00:59:25,020 --> 00:59:27,480
S2: Was it when he said something like, it's at the end,

1276
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,210
S2: he's getting into the cab, she's going back. And then

1277
00:59:30,210 --> 00:59:33,750
S2: he says something like, maybe in our future lives as well,

1278
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:34,770
S2: or something like that, you.

1279
00:59:34,770 --> 00:59:35,610
S1: Got it, you got.

1280
00:59:35,610 --> 00:59:36,360
S7: It. I knew.

1281
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:37,830
S2: And then I was thinking about what you would have

1282
00:59:37,830 --> 00:59:40,530
S2: been thinking about when you felt those things. Anyway, it

1283
00:59:40,530 --> 00:59:42,960
S2: was thriller. You've ruined the film for me.

1284
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:45,840
S1: I love to feel. I love to feel in movies.

1285
00:59:46,500 --> 00:59:46,740
S7: Is that.

1286
00:59:46,740 --> 00:59:47,280
S1: A crime?

1287
00:59:47,370 --> 00:59:48,840
S3: That is not a crime? Eating a sausage roll in

1288
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:49,710
S3: movies is a crime.

1289
00:59:49,710 --> 00:59:50,550
S2: Not paying for a sausage.

1290
00:59:50,550 --> 00:59:52,770
S1: Stealing a sausage roll is a crime, not eating one.

1291
00:59:52,770 --> 00:59:57,010
S3: I just wanted to leave it with two things. We

1292
00:59:57,010 --> 00:59:59,230
S3: talked about what like, obviously The White Lotus has been

1293
00:59:59,230 --> 01:00:02,350
S3: delayed until 2025. And so we're not sure what the

1294
01:00:02,350 --> 01:00:05,230
S3: next big prestige TV show will be. And and also

1295
01:00:05,230 --> 01:00:06,940
S3: possibly what we might be able to focus on as

1296
01:00:06,940 --> 01:00:09,130
S3: a podcast, although I do have and I've been let

1297
01:00:09,130 --> 01:00:11,530
S3: down by this show before, but I'm holding out hope.

1298
01:00:11,530 --> 01:00:14,540
S3: January 14th we are getting True Detective Season four.

1299
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:15,700
S7: Oh yeah.

1300
01:00:15,700 --> 01:00:20,320
S3: So that will star Jodie Foster Collie race. And I

1301
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:24,400
S3: think like True Detective season one was obviously unreal. It.

1302
01:00:24,490 --> 01:00:27,610
S3: Season two was really weird. Season three was good again.

1303
01:00:27,610 --> 01:00:30,250
S3: So I'm hopeful. Season four. You know this is HBO.

1304
01:00:30,250 --> 01:00:33,220
S3: Like we obviously know that they make some mistakes like

1305
01:00:33,220 --> 01:00:35,530
S3: with the idol and stuff. But yeah, potentially at the

1306
01:00:35,530 --> 01:00:37,720
S3: start of 2024 we could have at least a taste

1307
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,960
S3: tester of prestige TV until, you know, I don't know whatever.

1308
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,780
S3: Mel Danes, the next prestige TV. The Queen's Gambit season five.

1309
01:00:45,850 --> 01:00:46,330
S7: That's what you said.

1310
01:00:46,330 --> 01:00:47,650
S1: There were two things. What's the other thing.

1311
01:00:47,830 --> 01:00:49,960
S3: I totally forgot. So that's the end of the point today.

1312
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,420
S1: All right, a good time to leave it there, guys.

1313
01:00:52,420 --> 01:00:58,950
S1: Thank you so much. This episode of The Drop was

1314
01:00:58,950 --> 01:01:02,700
S1: produced by Cheong. If you enjoyed listening to today's episode

1315
01:01:02,700 --> 01:01:04,440
S1: of The Drop, make sure to follow us in your

1316
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,830
S1: favorite podcast app. Leave us a review or better yet,

1317
01:01:07,830 --> 01:01:11,130
S1: share it with a friend! I'm Osman Farooqui. See you

1318
01:01:11,130 --> 01:01:11,790
S1: next week!