WEBVTT - Psychological comp claims about justice not health

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up to thirteen minutes past five I have on

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<v Speaker 1>the phone this morning two GB commentator doctor Tanvia Ahmed.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about the psychological compensation claims about being about

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<v Speaker 1>justice and not about health. That's the story that we

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<v Speaker 1>want to wear lambrade on and can you tell us

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<v Speaker 1>more details about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Look right across the country and probably across the western world,

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<v Speaker 2>probably the last decade or two, these sort of psychological

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<v Speaker 2>claims in the workplace have gone up a great deal,

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<v Speaker 2>most specifically in New South Wales. They've quad rupled in

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<v Speaker 2>the last five years and that's really where it ruds to.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's currently a bill in New Southwest Parliament essentially

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<v Speaker 2>trying to stick a pin in this, try and really

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<v Speaker 2>cut down on the huge growth which is effectively bankrupting

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<v Speaker 2>the state to some extent, like they're kind of billions

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<v Speaker 2>of dollars in the red. But what I'm getting at

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<v Speaker 2>it's something I have to assess. I've never to assess

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<v Speaker 2>these claims. And by the claims, there's usually someone saying

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<v Speaker 2>I felt bullied or i felt mistreated, or I've been

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<v Speaker 2>harassed or I've got looked over in a promotion for

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<v Speaker 2>personal reasons. So it's all these sort of things. And

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<v Speaker 2>now I'm not saying these things aren't happening, but there's

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<v Speaker 2>a few trends that are driving this. So one mental

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<v Speaker 2>health awareness, so yes, people are much more conscious of

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<v Speaker 2>mental health problems. There's also our relationship with work people.

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<v Speaker 2>We have more service oriented work, so it's work where

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<v Speaker 2>we're sitting in on front of a computer, we're interacting

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<v Speaker 2>with teams. The psychosocial side of work, you could argue,

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<v Speaker 2>is more pronounced. It's more about kind of online interactions.

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<v Speaker 2>It's more it's how you get on with the team,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more subjective stuff. So that's another dynamic. And

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<v Speaker 2>in line with that, you've had this huge growth with

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<v Speaker 2>these types of claims. You've had also argue there's been

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<v Speaker 2>a change in our relationship with adversity. So even the

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<v Speaker 2>way we view adversity, it's probably more people thinking, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>the problem, somebody's done this to me. So people have

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<v Speaker 2>some sort of issue work and they're like, somebody's done

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<v Speaker 2>this to me. I'm just building up these broader cultural

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<v Speaker 2>trends because I think they feed into these workplace claims. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>when we assess the reality with these claims, even though

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<v Speaker 2>they're mental health claims. They don't respond to treatment like

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<v Speaker 2>mental health claims. So you might have to get a

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<v Speaker 2>diagnosis out of the police of post traumatic stress disorder,

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<v Speaker 2>but the usual portion of people with that diagnosis, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there might be half the people might respond to treatment. However,

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<v Speaker 2>when you have these sort of claims coming out of

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<v Speaker 2>the workplace, suddenly the claims and the treatment responses are less.

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<v Speaker 2>They don't respond quite as well. Now it's a variety

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<v Speaker 2>of reasons, but what I'm arguing here is what's really

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<v Speaker 2>going on here is often people feel wrong at work

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<v Speaker 2>in some ways, you know, they feel mistreated in some form,

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<v Speaker 2>and then it really becomes the dynamic is one about justice, resentment,

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<v Speaker 2>even honor and shame. I feel you don't really think

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<v Speaker 2>talk about honor shame in Western societies much. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it feels really ancient. You know, it's kind of warrior

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<v Speaker 2>or kind of romans or tribes and this sort of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>But in some ways that's sort of what's going on.

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<v Speaker 2>People feel they've been dishonored in a way and they

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<v Speaker 2>just get stuck. They're kind of in exile. They go

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<v Speaker 2>into a self imposed exile, and then it almost doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>matter you're throwing them treatments, you're doing counseling, all this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff. But till they feel they get some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of resolution, and again that's a kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>justice type thing, they just don't get better. So really,

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<v Speaker 2>what I'm arguing here, Phil is we need to think

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<v Speaker 2>about these claims differently. So a lot of the debate

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<v Speaker 2>that's going in early access to treatment. Yes they do

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<v Speaker 2>to some extent. If they do get in to see

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<v Speaker 2>a psychologists, it can help them reappraise what's going on

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<v Speaker 2>for them, Like whatever issue happened to work, what does

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<v Speaker 2>it mean to them? Can they readjust can they think

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<v Speaker 2>of it differently? So that is useful, But what you

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<v Speaker 2>really got to work on is can we find interesting

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<v Speaker 2>ways of mediating workplace disputes rather than it go down

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<v Speaker 2>this real combative route. What tends to happen is back

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<v Speaker 2>they go to some industrial relations commission and it becomes

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<v Speaker 2>a combat straight away. So initially somebody might come out going, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a bit pissed off that they didn't do X

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<v Speaker 2>y Z for me, and they'll go on leave, go

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<v Speaker 2>on to workers comp claim and then bang, before you

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<v Speaker 2>know it, it's turned into a kind of all out

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<v Speaker 2>legal combat. Like both sides have got lawyers. It's gone

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<v Speaker 2>to some sort of commission. It's a fair work claim,

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<v Speaker 2>and what began is something relatively mild turns into kind of,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like some David Goliath sort of mettle.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got two schools of thoughts on this. One is

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<v Speaker 1>that having been in a situation where I've been bullied

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<v Speaker 1>at work, and I know that PTSD gets bandied around

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<v Speaker 1>a lot. We've talked about HR on this show, and

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<v Speaker 1>how HR is there to essentially protect the employer. There

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<v Speaker 1>should be some recourse if you've been bullied and you've

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<v Speaker 1>actually walked away and you know that you have some

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<v Speaker 1>form of issue as a result of it. But there

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<v Speaker 1>are also people who are the architects in the workplace

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<v Speaker 1>of their own circumstances, who are trying to claim that

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<v Speaker 1>they're the victim. I guess the thing is to differentiate

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<v Speaker 1>between what's actually true and what is their version of

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<v Speaker 1>the truth.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, that's an awfully hard thing to do because it's

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<v Speaker 2>often one person's perception versus another, and they try and

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<v Speaker 2>we try and get some sort of objective reality, which

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<v Speaker 2>isn't always which isn't always easy, and there is. My

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<v Speaker 2>profession does probably add to it because we've got all

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<v Speaker 2>these diagnoses, and sometimes they're fairly loose criteria, so people

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<v Speaker 2>can latch onto a diagnosis. You mentioned PTSD. I think

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<v Speaker 2>increasingly the growth of PTSD is linked to lacking language

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<v Speaker 2>for at city, and that can be useful sometimes it

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<v Speaker 2>can help them make sense of it seek treatment. But

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<v Speaker 2>obviously people have to have recourse. Like you know, all

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of things go wrong in work and nobody's arguing

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<v Speaker 2>the worker shouldn't have rights, but something's going wrong in

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<v Speaker 2>these disputes that they're just getting completely stuck and framing

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<v Speaker 2>them purely as a health sort of dispute. I think

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<v Speaker 2>just misses a trick. It just doesn't quite get the

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<v Speaker 2>dynamic in these disputes.

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<v Speaker 1>But I also think sometimes you just want to be heard,

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<v Speaker 1>don't necessarily want some kind of compensation. You know, most

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<v Speaker 1>people just want someone to hear their grievances.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're spot onto. I think that people need to

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<v Speaker 2>feel acknowledged. So again trying to think of processes where

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<v Speaker 2>and again the legal thing can make it hard where

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<v Speaker 2>they're so fearful of admitting some sort of liability that

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<v Speaker 2>modern organizations often can't even allow space where someone gets

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<v Speaker 2>acknowledged where they're feeling of you being you know, mistreated

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<v Speaker 2>in some way or just being disrespected. Often it's a

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<v Speaker 2>feeling of disrespect and yeah, what you said is exactly right.

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<v Speaker 2>Is there some way we can acknowledge that they felt wronged?

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<v Speaker 2>We need some sort of ritual that allows them to

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<v Speaker 2>come back to work save face. But I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing that well. That things are turning into real

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<v Speaker 2>big legal battles.

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<v Speaker 1>I get the impression that HI will panic if somebody

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<v Speaker 1>goes to them with a complaint about you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>usually a boss, but also a fellow employee. First thing

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to do is think, well, okay, where's this

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<v Speaker 1>going to leave us? And I think that mentality has

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<v Speaker 1>got to go out of the equation that you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to have to have someone whose job is not just

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<v Speaker 1>to protect the company, but to protect the mental health

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<v Speaker 1>of the company.

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<v Speaker 2>That's true. I think there's a much more awareness of

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<v Speaker 2>that psychosocial risk bield. So you're right, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>we can handle it better. But in the most fundamental

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<v Speaker 2>thing now, arguably the government's going too far in New

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<v Speaker 2>South Wales. Whether they're kind of almost trying to shut

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<v Speaker 2>this out altogether, which all I heard a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people who are genuinely suffering. But it does just raise

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<v Speaker 2>this issue that you and I are talking about. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I think this can be handled better, and much of

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<v Speaker 2>it is exactly what you said, that there's a legal

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<v Speaker 2>pathway that is not allowing it's not giving space for

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<v Speaker 2>just ordinary acknowledgment, you know, just kind of letting someone

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<v Speaker 2>feel heard, just acknowledging their distress of feeling wronged, and

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<v Speaker 2>that could potentially save gazillions of dolls absolutely and improve

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<v Speaker 2>all sorts of suffering.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm speaking as a layman here. I don't think that

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<v Speaker 1>you're legally obligated to say to the employee, Okay, you

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<v Speaker 1>were wronged. That's minefield, which is your terrain. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think that again, the acknowledgment to the employee going you

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<v Speaker 1>actually were wronged here, this person is going to apologize

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<v Speaker 1>to you. We just want you to feel safe in

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<v Speaker 1>your workplace.

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right, Phil. So there's room for new rituals here,

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<v Speaker 2>new kind of workplace rituals, new kind of legal rituals

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<v Speaker 2>that marry the mental health with the law, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think is the ideal space of it. Consider what that

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<v Speaker 2>might look like.