Speaker 1: To this issue of the under sixteen's being banned from
Speaker 1: social media. Now it's been announced that Australia has been
Speaker 1: given the green light to use age verification technology. That's
Speaker 1: part of this new social media ban for the children
Speaker 1: under sixteen. It's all part of the crackdown on social
Speaker 1: media companies that the Prime Minister announced last November, and
Speaker 1: it includes that world first initiative to ban those under
Speaker 1: the age of sixteen from using social media platforms the
Speaker 1: Facebook's Instagram, snapchats, tiktoks of this world. So a trial
Speaker 1: of the age verification technology has reportedly deemed it ready
Speaker 1: for use, and the trial has determined that it will
Speaker 1: be private, robust and effective. Now I'm not so sure,
Speaker 1: but I'm a cynic by nature. But you know, I
Speaker 1: think you've got to remember these kids, the sixteen year old's,
Speaker 1: fifteen year old or whatever. They've been raised on technology
Speaker 1: in the way that you or I might have been
Speaker 1: raised on books. Their technology natives, digital natives, and they're
Speaker 1: going to find a loopole, I would imagine. Now that's
Speaker 1: not me saying we shouldn't try to protect them from
Speaker 1: social media, but I don't think it's going to be
Speaker 1: easy to do. But whether the band at the age
Speaker 1: of sixteen is going to work or not, whether the
Speaker 1: age at sixteen's appropriate or too high or too low.
Speaker 1: I mean, all these debates can be had. But as
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Einstein, who's a clinical psychologist and adjunct fellow
Speaker 1: at Mcaury University points out, the band will almost count
Speaker 1: for nothing unless we have urgent digital reforms that complement it,
Speaker 1: and that's something that I think to date has almost
Speaker 1: been lacking in the discussion. There's been a lot of
Speaker 1: focus on the ban world first and all this sort
Speaker 1: of stuff, or how's it going to work or could
Speaker 1: it work? Should it work? Is it a trojan horse?
Speaker 1: But what about the broader story here? Well, that's what
Speaker 1: I want to speak to her about, and she's with
Speaker 1: me on the line, Doctor Daniel Einstein, Good afternoon.
Speaker 2: Hi Michael.
Speaker 1: We have done a lot of focus on the ban.
Speaker 1: It's the headline grab or I get that, But as
Speaker 1: you say, the ecosystem that it's meant to support or
Speaker 1: that it fits into, we don't discuss that as much.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. We need education out there funded
Speaker 2: by the government that changes our understanding of our addictive
Speaker 2: use of social media, and that will help the students
Speaker 2: and the parents themselves.
Speaker 1: Okay, how do we address addiction in this sense? I
Speaker 1: mean when it comes to cigarettes, apparently we just tax
Speaker 1: it to oblivion, though we're seeing how that's working now.
Speaker 1: But with digital technology you can't do that. So how
Speaker 1: do we approach that?
Speaker 2: Well, we just need to understand it, because if we
Speaker 2: understand how we're pulled in, we'll make a few changes
Speaker 2: and those changes will help all of us.
Speaker 1: Okay, understand it, though in what sense the algorithms that
Speaker 1: are applied behind the scenes or what.
Speaker 2: No, it's really about understanding what happens with that addictive pool.
Speaker 2: So if you walk in the front door of your
Speaker 2: home and you automatically you kind of might be very
Speaker 2: used to pulling out your phone in that moment, having
Speaker 2: a look does someone want me? Does someone need me?
Speaker 2: Is there a great message waiting for me? On that
Speaker 2: post I posted this morning and someone posting about a
Speaker 2: topic that I really care about. If every time you
Speaker 2: walk in the door you look at that, you just
Speaker 2: get used to doing that, and in fact, what happens
Speaker 2: is we get a bit of dopamine. It comes out
Speaker 2: because you go, oh, I wonder if there's something there.
Speaker 2: I just wonder maybe there's something good. And what's going
Speaker 2: on beneath the surface is that we're all slightly addicted
Speaker 2: and wanting that little hit, and it's become associated with
Speaker 2: where we are and what we're doing, and it gets
Speaker 2: brought on by the location we're in because we've just
Speaker 2: let it happen, or looking at our phone or our
Speaker 2: computer or our iPad. So it's that that's the bit
Speaker 2: of education I want out for the whole community, for parents,
Speaker 2: the educators, for doctors, and for the students themselves, because
Speaker 2: once the students recognize that, they'll put limits in themselves
Speaker 2: as well, and that'll compliment I think.
Speaker 1: They'll limit themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No one wants to be have their attention all
Speaker 2: the time taken up by an online community and unable,
Speaker 2: in fact to appreciate the world around them, the relationships
Speaker 2: in their own family, their own real life friendships. People
Speaker 2: want to care for people around them, I think genuinely.
Speaker 1: Okay, you made the point that I was speaking here
Speaker 1: of addiction in this sense that it's twin brother is anxiety.
Speaker 1: So I think from that you're inferring that if one
Speaker 1: isn't able to access digital services willy nilly. They will
Speaker 1: be anxious that I don't know they're missing out or
Speaker 1: they're not in loophool, that something's and so it's trying
Speaker 1: to address both of those simultaneously.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the big picture. What you've just said is
Speaker 2: that is the big picture version of anxiety, like am
Speaker 2: I fine without my phone? But the small picture is
Speaker 2: actually the way we worry, the fact that just because
Speaker 2: I see my phone on my computer, I think about
Speaker 2: something that's important to me and I want to grab
Speaker 2: it and see if there's a problem there or if
Speaker 2: I've nailed it with something I've done this morning. So
Speaker 2: I might want to get off this phone and go
Speaker 2: did I do well with this interview? Has anyone sent
Speaker 2: me a text to say, Danielle, that was a great interview,
Speaker 2: And because it's important to me, I'm going to reach
Speaker 2: for my phone and urgently want to nail it right.
Speaker 2: Or if there's a problem with my child, I urgently
Speaker 2: want to see that my child is okay. But that's
Speaker 2: how it feeds into anxiety. It's actually just the worry
Speaker 2: that's brought on that I can quickly stamp out. I
Speaker 2: can stamp out uncertainty, Okay, and uncertainty is it drives
Speaker 2: us like uncertainty both in positive and negative situations, makes
Speaker 2: us more emotional.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the official psychological point of view that
Speaker 1: you're presenting, and I understand that I'm just the radio guy,
Speaker 1: but I'm thinking, if the technology is there and yet
Speaker 1: that is the human inbuilt psychological predisposition, how are people
Speaker 1: going to self regulate?
Speaker 2: Well, that's where can conditioning comes in. Sorry to get
Speaker 2: technical again, but that's where if you understand the addictive pool,
Speaker 2: you just put better practices in for yourself. So when
Speaker 2: you walk in the door, you put your computer down
Speaker 2: in a set location in the house, or your phone
Speaker 2: down in a set spot where it's not in view
Speaker 2: all the time, and that way you've got you get
Speaker 2: better digital habits. Some people have good digital habits already.
Speaker 2: Those people don't need to make changes, But many, many
Speaker 2: in the community do not have good digital habits because
Speaker 2: we just haven't caught out this addictive pool.
Speaker 1: I'd say more than many, I said, the vast majority.
Speaker 1: I mean, if I take public transport, I'm often the
Speaker 1: only one that isn't staring at a phone. If you
Speaker 1: go to a food court at say your local West Fields,
Speaker 1: most people would be completely oblivious of what was happening
Speaker 1: behind them because they're scrolling on some ridiculous social media
Speaker 1: thing looking at garbage while they eat. People are just
Speaker 1: hooked on this, So I mean, and that's the adults,
Speaker 1: let alone the kids.
Speaker 2: That's right, Michael. But that's where you can make a
Speaker 2: deliberate decision to change. You recognize that it's addictive to
Speaker 2: start with. But if we pretend that it's not addictive
Speaker 2: and we don't just call it out, which is what
Speaker 2: I'd like the government to do. I want the government
Speaker 2: to educate both clinicians like doctors, pediatricians, psychologists, researchers so
Speaker 2: that people feel comfortable talking about it. If a client
Speaker 2: or a patient comes in with anxiety, we need to
Speaker 2: ask them, oh, let's have a look at what's going on.
Speaker 2: How many hours did you spend on your phone yesterday
Speaker 2: or on your computer. Let's just have a look like
Speaker 2: a little digital health chair. Not to be in basics,
Speaker 2: it's not to be intrusive of what they're doing. It's
Speaker 2: just to acknowledge that this stops them getting better if
Speaker 2: they have anxiety.
Speaker 1: Okay, I think that's smart. Yeah, that's smart. Okay, so
Speaker 1: it's about education. I know one of the things you
Speaker 1: really want to do is launch a national digital health
Speaker 1: campaign and look at this through a health prism, and
Speaker 1: I concur with that. But let me just ask you
Speaker 1: with your psychological expertising, because I mean, you helped inform
Speaker 1: government with the sixty in band and the rest of
Speaker 1: you are part of all of that. So what is
Speaker 1: it about us psychologically that makes us gravitate to this?
Speaker 1: Because you know, my parents' generation, my grandparents general, they
Speaker 1: didn't have this. They didn't have phones and smartphones on
Speaker 1: the internet, so they had to occupy their time some
Speaker 1: other way, and heaven forbid, occasionally maybe they were bored,
Speaker 1: which I don't think is such a bad thing. But
Speaker 1: these days we've always got to be fiddling and doing
Speaker 1: something and being constantly reinforced that we're liked and popular.
Speaker 1: And does that say something about us as a society today?
Speaker 2: It's just easy for us to get hooked on it.
Speaker 2: That actually speaks to the technology companies themselves, right, they
Speaker 2: have analyzed human psychology and they use it to pull
Speaker 2: us in and hold us, and unfortunately, in under sixteen
Speaker 2: it's very bad for their emotional development. They're socializing in
Speaker 2: real life, their social skills. If they've got any vulnerabilities,
Speaker 2: they're going to get a lot worse. But in real terms,
Speaker 2: for you, Michael, and for the audience, it's just the
Speaker 2: fact that of course we want connection. Of course we
Speaker 2: want to be liked. Of Course it makes us feel
Speaker 2: good if someone says something nice to us, or if
Speaker 2: we're needed, and so of course we're going to want that.
Speaker 2: If they're easy hits, it's easier than putting effort into
Speaker 2: working hard at something and then say a child at
Speaker 2: school has to work hard at their English and then
Speaker 2: they get a good result. It's much more effortful. But
Speaker 2: if we want to build children's competence in putting effort
Speaker 2: in and learning that there are no quick, easy fixes
Speaker 2: and that their parents can't get the results for them,
Speaker 2: that they've got to put the work in themselves, we've
Speaker 2: got to take away, and well not take away, but
Speaker 2: just only gradually introduce these cheap hits that make us
Speaker 2: feel good in the moment.
Speaker 1: The sugar hits. Yeah, Okay, just finally, the reason we're
Speaker 1: speaking is you're saying that if we don't do all
Speaker 1: of this, the background work, which is the cause of
Speaker 1: really the tip of the iceberg, which is the under
Speaker 1: sixties band. If we don't do that, the under sixteens
Speaker 1: band will fail. That's what you're saying. Essentially, isn't it
Speaker 1: way to achieve this purpose?
Speaker 2: No? I think part of the purpose is just to
Speaker 2: get the tech companies to set up, to step up,
Speaker 2: for them to have skin in the game. So as
Speaker 2: long as as long as we stick with that legislation,
Speaker 2: they have to have skin in the game. But I
Speaker 2: would like the public to support it and to know
Speaker 2: that parents feel solid, and that students themselves who have
Speaker 2: said that they want this, they've actually you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of seventeen eighteen year olds look back and say
Speaker 2: I don't want my younger brother or sister on fusil media. So,
Speaker 2: you know, young people themselves feel that this is a
Speaker 2: healthy step forward. And I just would like the whole
Speaker 2: community to understand that we can safely do this and
Speaker 2: to support support a change in norms. And we've already
Speaker 2: started that. We already started the changing norms by introducing
Speaker 2: the legislation. Now we need more, we need more education,
Speaker 2: and we need you know, the health everyone in health
Speaker 2: to get on board. And I just don't want to
Speaker 2: hear negative messes coming from those who might be invested.
Speaker 2: Maybe Michael in not having a successful change in our community.
Speaker 1: Well yes, heaven forbid, there could be those people involved. Yes,
Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me. Thank you for your time, Daniel, appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: All the best, doctor Daniel Einstein, the clinical psychologists there