1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,680 S1: Hi, it's Samantha Selinger Morris here, and I'm the host 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720 S1: of the Morning Edition. We are bringing you the best 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:11,520 S1: episodes of 2025 before your Morning Edition team returns mid January. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,840 S1: This one is about Belle Gibson, one of the original 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,079 S1: wellness influencers. Gibson claimed to have healed herself from terminal 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:26,119 S1: cancer through healthy eating. The problem was she never had cancer. 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,680 S1: This episode was recorded shortly before the release of the 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,279 S1: worldwide hit series Apple Cider Vinegar, which was based on 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,600 S1: the work of two of our journalists, Beau Donnelly and 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:44,360 S1: Nick Toscano, in exposing Gibson's cancer. Con. So, Nick and Beau, 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,120 S1: thank you so much for joining us on the Morning Edition. 12 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,440 S1: I really want you to take us back to 2015. 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,040 S1: You were both young reporters at The Age in Melbourne. 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,480 S1: So how did you first hear about Belle Gibson? Nick 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:57,520 S1: I'll go to you first. 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,910 S2: I think a good place to start is in 2015, 17 00:01:01,150 --> 00:01:05,230 S2: a year of incredible success for Belle Gibson. She had 18 00:01:05,230 --> 00:01:08,310 S2: reached enormous fame already off the back of a miracle 19 00:01:08,310 --> 00:01:12,670 S2: story of curing a malignant brain tumor that had spread 20 00:01:12,670 --> 00:01:16,350 S2: to other organs throughout her body. Using healthy eating instead 21 00:01:16,350 --> 00:01:17,630 S2: of conventional medicine. 22 00:01:17,630 --> 00:01:20,270 S3: And its conflicting for a lot of people like, I 23 00:01:20,270 --> 00:01:22,630 S3: don't think I'm going to die tomorrow, but my body 24 00:01:22,630 --> 00:01:23,429 S3: is dying. 25 00:01:23,910 --> 00:01:28,350 S2: She had turned that story into into a successful business empire, 26 00:01:28,350 --> 00:01:32,510 S2: which included developing one of Apple's most popular health and 27 00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:36,270 S2: wellness apps at the time, called The Whole Pantry, and 28 00:01:36,310 --> 00:01:39,350 S2: a best selling cookbook published by Penguin. 29 00:01:39,390 --> 00:01:42,270 S3: I put everything that I knew along my journey with cancer, 30 00:01:42,350 --> 00:01:45,990 S3: nutrition and wellness and put it on the most accessible 31 00:01:45,990 --> 00:01:47,910 S3: device possible, the iPhone. 32 00:01:47,910 --> 00:01:50,390 S2: But Bo and I had absolutely no idea who Belle 33 00:01:50,390 --> 00:01:53,350 S2: Gibson was. We didn't have Instagram at the time. It 34 00:01:53,350 --> 00:01:55,750 S2: was a very it was sort of the dawn of 35 00:01:55,750 --> 00:02:00,380 S2: of of of Instagram. Back then, we weren't much into dieting, 36 00:02:00,380 --> 00:02:04,540 S2: we didn't follow wellness gurus or we weren't really into 37 00:02:04,540 --> 00:02:07,860 S2: wellness fads. So for Bo and I, when we were 38 00:02:07,860 --> 00:02:10,940 S2: a couple of journos in our early 20s, having just 39 00:02:10,940 --> 00:02:13,620 S2: started our careers at the age Belle Gibson had wholly 40 00:02:13,620 --> 00:02:17,260 S2: passed us by. Um, I guess that was until until 41 00:02:17,260 --> 00:02:19,940 S2: a tip came in from someone suggesting that there was 42 00:02:19,940 --> 00:02:21,859 S2: more to look at here. And Belle Gibson may not 43 00:02:21,860 --> 00:02:23,700 S2: be entirely what she was purporting to be. 44 00:02:24,660 --> 00:02:26,180 S3: You know, when you've got a tumor in the middle 45 00:02:26,180 --> 00:02:29,260 S3: of your brain, you're not a very balanced person. Not 46 00:02:29,260 --> 00:02:30,940 S3: very rational thinking either. 47 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:34,459 S4: Okay. So, Bo, I want. 48 00:02:34,460 --> 00:02:37,500 S1: To turn to you. Can you tell us about where 49 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:40,179 S1: this tip came from and what did it say? Did 50 00:02:40,180 --> 00:02:42,940 S1: it raise doubt about her cancer claims? Like what prompted 51 00:02:42,940 --> 00:02:44,859 S1: you to start actually looking into her? 52 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:47,500 S5: So before The age, Nick and I both worked for 53 00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:51,500 S5: the local papers in Melbourne, and my editor was Eileen Berry, 54 00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:54,620 S5: who became a friend. And one day she came to 55 00:02:54,620 --> 00:02:57,299 S5: me and she said, have you heard of Belle Gibson? Uh, 56 00:02:57,340 --> 00:03:01,620 S5: she's this young, successful app developer, and she's faking cancer. 57 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:04,820 S5: And I know someone, uh, who's in her inner circle 58 00:03:04,820 --> 00:03:08,660 S5: and who wants to expose her. So I thought, right, okay, 59 00:03:08,860 --> 00:03:11,740 S5: that doesn't sound like an allegation or a story that 60 00:03:11,740 --> 00:03:14,260 S5: I could ever stand up because, I mean, how do 61 00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:16,900 S5: you prove a negative? We as journalists don't have access 62 00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:20,420 S5: to people's medical records. Um, but I took the number 63 00:03:20,419 --> 00:03:22,859 S5: of this friend of Belle Gibson's. Her name is Chanel, 64 00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:26,339 S5: and I gave her a ring. And that first call, 65 00:03:26,340 --> 00:03:28,419 S5: I probably spent about an hour on the phone with her. 66 00:03:29,260 --> 00:03:32,980 S5: And she struck me as someone who was very intelligent 67 00:03:32,980 --> 00:03:36,260 S5: and who was just horrified, really, for the role she 68 00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:39,940 S5: had played in supporting Belle Gibson, who she now believed 69 00:03:39,980 --> 00:03:43,380 S5: was was a cancer faker. She outlined to me why 70 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:46,820 S5: she thought Belle Gibson was was faking cancer, and there 71 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:50,500 S5: were a lot of things from, um, a seizure that 72 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:54,940 S5: Belle Gibson faked at her son's fourth birthday party. Um, 73 00:03:54,980 --> 00:03:57,930 S5: there was an intervention that Chanel and other friends staged 74 00:03:57,930 --> 00:04:01,930 S5: where they went to Mel Gibson's house and basically called 75 00:04:01,930 --> 00:04:04,930 S5: her on on her claims and asked her to produce 76 00:04:04,930 --> 00:04:09,130 S5: evidence that she had cancer. Um, so I started that 77 00:04:09,130 --> 00:04:14,930 S5: call feeling very critical, um, almost dismissive of of Chanel's claims. 78 00:04:14,930 --> 00:04:18,529 S5: But I came away from it absolutely fascinated by what 79 00:04:18,529 --> 00:04:20,330 S5: she was saying. And so the first thing I did 80 00:04:20,330 --> 00:04:22,890 S5: was I went to Instagram and I looked Belle Gibson up. 81 00:04:22,890 --> 00:04:25,049 S5: I looked at what she'd been saying, and I very 82 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:30,530 S5: quickly noticed that everything, including her health claims, were either 83 00:04:30,529 --> 00:04:38,290 S5: really vague or totally inconsistent or just seemingly implausible. 84 00:04:38,330 --> 00:04:40,609 S1: Okay. And then the first story that you both wrote 85 00:04:40,610 --> 00:04:44,210 S1: on her, that was March 2015, but you didn't focus 86 00:04:44,330 --> 00:04:47,290 S1: on the questions about her cancer diagnosis. Instead, you focused 87 00:04:47,290 --> 00:04:50,530 S1: on the money specifically that she had not handed over 88 00:04:50,570 --> 00:04:53,930 S1: donations that she had promised to various charities. So, Nick, 89 00:04:53,930 --> 00:04:55,760 S1: I'm going to go to you. Why did you focus 90 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:56,360 S1: on that? 91 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,040 S2: Beau and I, um. After a few weeks of looking 92 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,200 S2: into Belle, having pulled everything we. We could find on 93 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,040 S2: her and going through the chronology of the way she'd 94 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:10,240 S2: explained her health situation, we were very doubtful, as Beau mentioned, 95 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,600 S2: and we then started talking to even more of her friends, 96 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:20,520 S2: her inner circle, people who were skeptical. We also spoke 97 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,560 S2: to doctors on an off the record basis at that point, 98 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,880 S2: to examine Belle's various cancer claims and her explanation of 99 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,840 S2: how it had spread. These were collated through articles and 100 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,000 S2: interviews she'd she'd done her various social media posts. They 101 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,040 S2: were very doubtful as well. We were hoping to write 102 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,880 S2: an initial article which would have said something like, there 103 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,800 S2: are doubts about Belle Gibson's diagnosis, but none of her 104 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,720 S2: friends who we were speaking to at that point were 105 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,119 S2: prepared to speak on the record. We put the suggestion 106 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,909 S2: and a draft to our lawyers at the age, and 107 00:05:55,910 --> 00:05:58,670 S2: they quite judiciously came back with the response that, no, 108 00:05:58,670 --> 00:06:02,310 S2: we we we can't write the article yet. So bow 109 00:06:02,310 --> 00:06:05,430 S2: and I then thought, well, if she's lying about this, 110 00:06:05,430 --> 00:06:08,670 S2: then what else is she lying about? And so we, uh, 111 00:06:08,670 --> 00:06:13,070 S2: we went through, um, her extensive social media presence, uh, 112 00:06:13,070 --> 00:06:15,670 S2: and she was also claiming at that point to be 113 00:06:15,670 --> 00:06:19,190 S2: giving large parts of all her profits away to various 114 00:06:19,190 --> 00:06:24,390 S2: charitable organizations, whether that's asylum seeker, uh, charities, charity supporting 115 00:06:24,390 --> 00:06:28,150 S2: birthing kits in Africa, all sorts of various causes. At 116 00:06:28,150 --> 00:06:31,349 S2: some point, she'd say, I'm giving away 10% of all 117 00:06:31,350 --> 00:06:35,909 S2: my proceeds. At some point she'd say, I'm giving away 50%. Um, 118 00:06:37,070 --> 00:06:40,310 S2: and also in some instances, she she was hosting online 119 00:06:40,310 --> 00:06:46,470 S2: fundraisers for specific causes. So we started looking into that angle, 120 00:06:46,630 --> 00:06:51,550 S2: and it really didn't take long for that to start unravelling. 121 00:06:51,589 --> 00:06:53,110 S2: I mean, Bo and I picked up the phone and 122 00:06:53,110 --> 00:06:55,740 S2: we called. We called these various charities that she listed 123 00:06:55,740 --> 00:06:58,540 S2: off by name, and we'd asked, have they ever heard 124 00:06:58,540 --> 00:07:01,180 S2: of Belle Gibson? And most of them said no. Had 125 00:07:01,180 --> 00:07:04,860 S2: they ever received a donation? Most of them said no. 126 00:07:05,260 --> 00:07:07,700 S2: So that was a story that we knew we could write. 127 00:07:07,940 --> 00:07:11,020 S1: Okay, so what was Belle Gibson's response to all of that? 128 00:07:11,060 --> 00:07:12,060 S1: What did she say? 129 00:07:12,260 --> 00:07:14,700 S5: It was a Friday afternoon, and we fired off a 130 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:18,460 S5: list of questions to Belle Gibson. 21 questions. They were 131 00:07:18,460 --> 00:07:21,420 S5: about the charitable donations that she'd claimed to have made, 132 00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:26,500 S5: but also about many other parts of her life that 133 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:29,540 S5: had been contradicted in her own posts or by others. 134 00:07:29,860 --> 00:07:34,020 S5: So we asked for her age because that that was 135 00:07:34,020 --> 00:07:36,740 S5: in dispute. At one point we asked where she grew up. 136 00:07:37,060 --> 00:07:39,020 S5: We asked where she went to school, where she studied, 137 00:07:39,020 --> 00:07:43,020 S5: where she worked, when she was diagnosed, what she was 138 00:07:43,020 --> 00:07:46,580 S5: diagnosed with, what the prognosis was. Um, and a whole 139 00:07:46,580 --> 00:07:51,380 S5: raft of other questions. What happened was that she immediately 140 00:07:51,380 --> 00:07:54,530 S5: hit the defines. So she started calling some of the charities. 141 00:07:54,530 --> 00:07:58,330 S5: She sent them money. She took screenshots of bank transfers. 142 00:07:58,770 --> 00:08:00,690 S5: She sent them to the charities. She was trying to 143 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:04,010 S5: kill the story. Then she sent us a 1500 word 144 00:08:04,010 --> 00:08:08,610 S5: email explaining it all away as a cash flow problem. 145 00:08:08,690 --> 00:08:12,410 S5: She basically said, you know, we're a young business. Um, 146 00:08:12,410 --> 00:08:16,410 S5: we're we're struggling. We're getting our books in order. And 147 00:08:16,410 --> 00:08:19,410 S5: she spoke in a way that sort of, I guess, 148 00:08:19,450 --> 00:08:22,690 S5: I guess she wasn't taking responsibility for it. But she 149 00:08:22,690 --> 00:08:25,530 S5: was also sort of saying it's referring everything to the 150 00:08:25,530 --> 00:08:28,610 S5: whole pantry. The reality is, she was the whole pantry. 151 00:08:28,650 --> 00:08:31,890 S5: It was it was a one person show. So the 152 00:08:31,890 --> 00:08:35,090 S5: story about her failing to pass on the money raised 153 00:08:35,090 --> 00:08:39,290 S5: for charity went online on a Sunday night, and Nick 154 00:08:39,290 --> 00:08:42,930 S5: and I were in constant contact. Um, and watching social 155 00:08:42,929 --> 00:08:45,770 S5: media as the comments came flooding in. And then Belle 156 00:08:45,809 --> 00:08:48,530 S5: Gibson put up a post, basically bagging the story and 157 00:08:48,530 --> 00:08:50,370 S5: saying that we all got it, that we got it 158 00:08:50,370 --> 00:08:54,449 S5: all wrong at first, like there always was with Belle Gibson. 159 00:08:54,770 --> 00:08:58,250 S5: There was a huge outpouring of support for her along 160 00:08:58,250 --> 00:09:00,610 S5: the lines of, she's just a young mum, she's sick, 161 00:09:00,650 --> 00:09:03,610 S5: she's trying to do her best. And where a couple 162 00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:07,089 S5: of male journalists intent on tearing her down, that that 163 00:09:07,090 --> 00:09:10,370 S5: was really the theme. But then things turned and people 164 00:09:10,370 --> 00:09:13,970 S5: started asking why she hadn't donated money raised for charity, 165 00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:18,010 S5: and how charitable donations get mixed up in the business's 166 00:09:18,050 --> 00:09:22,570 S5: cash flow. Belle Gibson tried to put those fires out 167 00:09:22,570 --> 00:09:25,730 S5: by by responding to people one on one, but it 168 00:09:25,730 --> 00:09:28,810 S5: got to a point where they were coming in faster 169 00:09:28,809 --> 00:09:32,090 S5: than she could. She could keep up with, um, and 170 00:09:32,090 --> 00:09:36,530 S5: that's when she started deleting critical posts. And what then 171 00:09:36,570 --> 00:09:39,170 S5: happened within, I guess an hour or so was was 172 00:09:39,170 --> 00:09:41,890 S5: what we had expected, and that was that people would 173 00:09:41,890 --> 00:09:48,290 S5: start openly questioning her cancer diagnosis and her claims of 174 00:09:48,650 --> 00:09:52,920 S5: eating healthily and beating metastasized terminal brain cancer. 175 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:54,520 S6: How do you take it? What is it, exactly? 176 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,800 S3: Um, I don't know how I'm going to talk about this. 177 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,400 S3: I might have to do some more reading on it, 178 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,400 S3: but it's, um, a machine. 179 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,720 S5: Other publications then jumped on the story, and it really 180 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,440 S5: opened us. Opened the door for us to publish on, 181 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,800 S5: on the doubts that we'd already, you know, heard about 182 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,520 S5: from her friends and from doctors. 183 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,160 S1: And I think it's fair to say that things then 184 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,800 S1: really picked up steam after this. So, Nick, tell us 185 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:21,839 S1: what happened next. 186 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,280 S2: Well, the next story that Bo and I wrote in 187 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,000 S2: the Age was something along the lines of friends and 188 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,800 S2: doctors cast doubt over healing. Bell's cancer claims Healing Bell 189 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,479 S2: was the the Instagram moniker she used in that article. 190 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,240 S2: We were able to, to quote sources from her inner 191 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,080 S2: circle saying they doubted her cancer claims were were able 192 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,319 S2: to mention the fact that she was being openly questioned 193 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,679 S2: on her various social media pages about her diagnosis and 194 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,870 S2: had been deleting posts, and we got the all clear 195 00:10:51,870 --> 00:10:57,270 S2: from our lawyers and editors at the age to publish, um, 196 00:10:57,550 --> 00:11:00,470 S2: quotes from a leading neurosurgeon, Doctor Andrew Kay, who we 197 00:11:00,470 --> 00:11:03,470 S2: spoke to, who said something along the lines to us 198 00:11:03,510 --> 00:11:07,910 S2: of this would be a highly, highly unlikely way for 199 00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:11,150 S2: cancer to behave, and this would be more than a 200 00:11:11,150 --> 00:11:13,830 S2: 1 in 1,000,000, 1 in 1,000,000 case, it would be 201 00:11:13,870 --> 00:11:19,470 S2: a 1 in 100,000,000. From there, things snowballed very, very quickly. 202 00:11:19,510 --> 00:11:23,790 S2: For Bell, every publication in the country and overseas started 203 00:11:23,790 --> 00:11:25,270 S2: jumping on the story. 204 00:11:25,910 --> 00:11:29,230 S7: She deceived hundreds of thousands of followers on social media, 205 00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:32,790 S7: developing a wellness guide, the Whole Pantry app, to help 206 00:11:32,830 --> 00:11:34,230 S7: other cancer sufferers. 207 00:11:34,270 --> 00:11:38,230 S8: Bill Gibson profited off misery and desperation. What she did 208 00:11:38,270 --> 00:11:39,350 S8: is despicable. 209 00:11:39,550 --> 00:11:42,590 S9: It's unconscionable and still be in some hope that I 210 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:47,030 S9: too could get better. I really hope that she, you know, 211 00:11:47,070 --> 00:11:49,540 S9: gets brought to justice for what she does. 212 00:11:51,260 --> 00:11:54,700 S2: Belle Gibson went to ground Penguin. Her her publisher went 213 00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:58,900 S2: into crisis mode and, um, before long began pulling a 214 00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:02,699 S2: book from shelves and pulping copies of it. Apple refused 215 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:05,699 S2: to have refused to say anything. They pretended like they 216 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:09,100 S2: didn't know her. They they they wouldn't comment to us 217 00:12:09,380 --> 00:12:13,620 S2: or to other publications at all. Belle Gibson remained quiet 218 00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:17,860 S2: until re-emerging, um, a couple of weeks later, after she'd 219 00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:20,660 S2: hired a crisis PR manager to have an interview with 220 00:12:20,660 --> 00:12:21,900 S2: the Australian Women's Weekly. 221 00:12:22,179 --> 00:12:25,300 S7: After months of speculation, the 23 year old mother of 222 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:29,339 S7: one finally admitted in a magazine interview. No, none of 223 00:12:29,340 --> 00:12:30,020 S7: it's true. 224 00:12:30,700 --> 00:12:34,420 S2: Not long after that, she she was paid $75,000 to 225 00:12:34,460 --> 00:12:38,100 S2: agree to an on camera interview with Tara Brown at 226 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:41,660 S2: 60 minutes, which goes down in the history books as 227 00:12:41,660 --> 00:12:43,740 S2: one of the biggest trainwreck interviews of all time. 228 00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:47,890 S8: You had three heart operations. You suffered two cardiac arrests. 229 00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:51,210 S8: You died twice on the operating table. You had a stroke, 230 00:12:51,690 --> 00:12:54,569 S8: and you were diagnosed with inoperable brain tumor and given 231 00:12:54,570 --> 00:12:55,530 S8: four months to live. 232 00:12:56,370 --> 00:12:57,010 S3: Correct. 233 00:13:00,530 --> 00:13:06,090 S1: We'll be right back. And so, what did you discover 234 00:13:06,090 --> 00:13:08,850 S1: since then about when she sort of first started lying? 235 00:13:08,890 --> 00:13:11,969 S1: Because the Netflix show, which comes out on Thursday and 236 00:13:11,970 --> 00:13:14,330 S1: it's based on your book, it paints her, at least 237 00:13:14,330 --> 00:13:17,530 S1: at the start, as this vulnerable, isolated young mother. You know, 238 00:13:17,570 --> 00:13:20,850 S1: she's getting validation and support from the lies that she's telling. 239 00:13:21,250 --> 00:13:24,010 S1: But why do you think she did what she did? 240 00:13:24,210 --> 00:13:27,410 S5: That's a really tough question. It's very difficult to know. 241 00:13:27,450 --> 00:13:31,770 S5: I mean, it's something that I think Sam Strauss, the 242 00:13:31,809 --> 00:13:34,930 S5: the Aussie writer of the Netflix show, tried to get 243 00:13:34,929 --> 00:13:37,329 S5: into in the same way that we tried to answer 244 00:13:37,330 --> 00:13:38,570 S5: this question in our book. 245 00:13:38,809 --> 00:13:43,290 S10: It has 90,000 likes. She does not have spleen cancer. 246 00:13:43,650 --> 00:13:47,040 S5: This series could have just focused on the cancer scam. 247 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,480 S5: It could have just been a surface level kind of 248 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,280 S5: production that didn't deal with the bigger themes of social 249 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,360 S5: media and the allure of miracle cures and unproven cancer 250 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,520 S5: treatments and misinformation, and who Belle Gibson is. But Sam 251 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,480 S5: didn't do that. She just went for it. And she 252 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,040 S5: did what we had tried to do, which is to 253 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,240 S5: go back and look at what drove Belle Gibson. 254 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,480 S11: You have to be an actual sociopath to do that. 255 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,640 S11: And I am not. I mean, I could do like 256 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:18,760 S11: 50 personality quizzes right now, and I am an empath. 257 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,480 S5: So we we delved into her childhood and we learned 258 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,720 S5: that she had a very troubled childhood and that she 259 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,800 S5: told lies about her health from a very young age. 260 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,440 S5: We also spoke to her mother. We visited with her grandmother. 261 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,640 S5: And I mean, the next Netflix series also features Belle's mum. 262 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,840 S5: She's a really interesting character and it's very close to 263 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,760 S5: the truth, and I think that gives a really good 264 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,720 S5: insight into the kind of Chaotic childhood that Belle Gibson had. 265 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,120 S5: The other the other thing is, I think by the 266 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,040 S5: time Belle Gibson started the app, she was a young, 267 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,640 S5: broke mum, a young, broke single mum living in a 268 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,960 S5: new city. She was definitely vulnerable and I would say 269 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,880 S5: that she's probably always been vulnerable. That said, a lot 270 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,960 S5: of people are vulnerable or have had difficult childhoods and 271 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,760 S5: they don't go on to become a cancer scammer. 272 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,440 S1: Now I really want to turn to how this Belle 273 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,320 S1: Gibson story. It was a massive wake up call about 274 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,200 S1: the dangers of the wellness industry. So I want to 275 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,000 S1: get into that. I mean, were there people who really 276 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,320 S1: did have cancer who were sucked in by her and 277 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,120 S1: who were at risk of going off, say, chemotherapy or 278 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,000 S1: radiotherapy because they believed that they too could beat cancer 279 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,560 S1: by eating well. 280 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,640 S5: Nick and I have never had a response to a 281 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,720 S5: story quite like the stories that we wrote about Belle Gibson. 282 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:47,870 S5: We were absolutely inundated with emails and phone calls from 283 00:15:48,390 --> 00:15:53,550 S5: cancer patients, their families, their friends, people who have lost 284 00:15:53,550 --> 00:15:59,230 S5: loved ones to cancer. We were contacted by oncologists, GPS, nurses, 285 00:16:00,150 --> 00:16:03,110 S5: and then we were just contacted by many, many people 286 00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:05,390 S5: in the community, the general public, people who were just 287 00:16:05,390 --> 00:16:08,710 S5: really pissed off at the idea that someone would do this. 288 00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:13,230 S5: We spoke to one woman. She told us that she 289 00:16:13,230 --> 00:16:16,590 S5: had Belle Gibson's book, and she had the app, and 290 00:16:16,590 --> 00:16:20,270 S5: her father was dying of terminal cancer, and she said 291 00:16:20,270 --> 00:16:24,869 S5: that she and her sister every week would go and 292 00:16:25,230 --> 00:16:27,190 S5: go to the markets in Melbourne and pick up all 293 00:16:27,190 --> 00:16:31,070 S5: the rare ingredients that were listed in the recipes in 294 00:16:31,070 --> 00:16:34,750 S5: Belle Gibson's book. And so while they never thought that 295 00:16:34,750 --> 00:16:38,750 S5: this would cure their dad, they were they were really 296 00:16:38,750 --> 00:16:40,790 S5: sucked into the story and thought it would help him. 297 00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:44,540 S5: And As we spoke to more people like this and 298 00:16:44,540 --> 00:16:48,420 S5: more people who who lost loved ones to other cancer scams, 299 00:16:49,060 --> 00:16:52,940 S5: we realized this is the the bigger issue here. It's not. 300 00:16:53,780 --> 00:16:58,540 S5: Obviously there is the element of of false hope, uh, that, 301 00:16:58,540 --> 00:17:01,980 S5: that you're peddling, which is very dangerous and always costs 302 00:17:01,980 --> 00:17:05,820 S5: money as well. But it's this time that is lost 303 00:17:06,260 --> 00:17:10,700 S5: when family members, uh, are trying to save their loved ones, 304 00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:13,500 S5: whether they go to the markets or they're running around, uh, 305 00:17:13,580 --> 00:17:19,060 S5: trying to find, you know, an alternative medicine, or they're 306 00:17:19,060 --> 00:17:21,979 S5: researching on the internet or following some sort of social 307 00:17:21,980 --> 00:17:26,140 S5: media account. And so that's what's really heartbreaking about this 308 00:17:26,140 --> 00:17:28,900 S5: whole story. In our book, Nick and I dedicated two 309 00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:32,100 S5: chapters to a young woman in Melbourne called Kate, who 310 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,740 S5: we spent a lot of time with. She was diagnosed 311 00:17:34,740 --> 00:17:39,700 S5: with breast cancer, and she she was really hooked on 312 00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:42,610 S5: Belle Gibson's story because he was a woman living with 313 00:17:42,609 --> 00:17:46,010 S5: terminal cancer who was traveling the world. She was successful 314 00:17:46,010 --> 00:17:51,530 S5: in business. She was kicking goals. And this was it 315 00:17:51,530 --> 00:17:54,649 S5: just couldn't be further from the truth. For Kate's reality, 316 00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:59,169 S5: I mean, Kate had gone through, uh, chemotherapy. She'd had 317 00:17:59,170 --> 00:18:03,649 S5: a mastectomy. She felt like crap. Um, she couldn't work. 318 00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:06,090 S5: And so she was really drawn in by this. And 319 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:09,530 S5: it got to a point where she started saying to 320 00:18:09,570 --> 00:18:12,210 S5: her husband, I want to sort of look at my 321 00:18:12,210 --> 00:18:15,850 S5: options here. And we spoke to the husband, and he 322 00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:19,050 S5: was just completely just horrified at the thought of this. 323 00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:21,170 S5: And he actually called his mother, who was a nurse, 324 00:18:21,170 --> 00:18:23,689 S5: and she flew in to Melbourne and they sat her 325 00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:26,330 S5: down and, and had to talk her out of it. 326 00:18:26,330 --> 00:18:28,170 S5: And it wasn't an easy thing to do. 327 00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:30,730 S1: And to be clear, Bell actually wasn't in any way 328 00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:33,570 S1: a trained professional, right? I mean, she wasn't in medicine, 329 00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:36,290 S1: she wasn't a dietician. She didn't have any expertise to 330 00:18:36,290 --> 00:18:38,010 S1: be giving out advice. Right? 331 00:18:38,050 --> 00:18:43,280 S5: No, I mean, Bell Gibson had no no formal training 332 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,920 S5: in anything, as far as we know. Um, certainly no 333 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,280 S5: medical training. I think it's important to remember, too, that 334 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:54,040 S5: I mean, we aren't. Personally aware of someone who stopped 335 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,280 S5: their conventional treatment and started, you know, just eating the 336 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,280 S5: recipes in Belle Gibson's book or taking her advice online. 337 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,400 S5: But I think it's important to remember that cancer scamming 338 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,840 S5: is nothing new. This is still going on today. Uh, 339 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,400 S5: you know, not just in clinics in Tijuana, but it's 340 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,600 S5: happening all around Australia, in towns. It's happening online. I 341 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,720 S5: guess the the thing about Belle Gibson is that her 342 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,320 S5: explosion to success was made possible by this rise of 343 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,200 S5: influencers who are able to attract followers unchecked. And she 344 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,760 S5: had the backing of companies like Apple and Penguin, who 345 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,600 S5: not only partnered with her, they endorsed her. They pushed 346 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,830 S5: out her lie. They propelled her Her online fame to 347 00:19:40,869 --> 00:19:45,149 S5: fame in the real world. But every day there are 348 00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:49,429 S5: people who are desperate and hopeful, searching for miracle cures, 349 00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:52,949 S5: and they will pay anything. They will travel anywhere to 350 00:19:52,990 --> 00:19:56,110 S5: get them. And this is something that I'm I'm really 351 00:19:56,109 --> 00:19:59,990 S5: pleased is is shown in the Netflix series. 352 00:20:00,390 --> 00:20:02,109 S1: I mean, it's such a good point. It really is 353 00:20:02,109 --> 00:20:04,909 S1: a perfect storm of people desperate for hope in the 354 00:20:04,910 --> 00:20:07,630 S1: most horrible of situations. And of course, social media, which 355 00:20:07,630 --> 00:20:11,110 S1: can just like rocket, you know, this hope into the stratosphere. Really. 356 00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:13,910 S1: So let's get into that, Nick, because she was one 357 00:20:13,910 --> 00:20:17,950 S1: of the first wellness influencers before influencers were even a thing. 358 00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:20,550 S1: You scroll through social media now and of course you're inundated. 359 00:20:20,550 --> 00:20:24,470 S1: So has the wellness industry actually improved in any way? 360 00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:26,909 S1: I mean, are there more checks and balances? 361 00:20:27,070 --> 00:20:31,310 S2: You're right. Sam. Um, I mean, wellness influencers. You can 362 00:20:31,310 --> 00:20:34,910 S2: barely open Instagram without being completely flooded with that sort 363 00:20:34,910 --> 00:20:37,710 S2: of content. Belle Gibson was one of the first. Yeah, 364 00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:40,869 S2: in 2015, Instagram was still in its infancy, and she 365 00:20:40,869 --> 00:20:43,990 S2: was something of a trailblazer in that sort of in 366 00:20:44,070 --> 00:20:47,670 S2: that space. I think those dangers are as present as 367 00:20:47,670 --> 00:20:51,790 S2: ever on, um, on, on Instagram and elsewhere. I, I 368 00:20:51,910 --> 00:20:55,270 S2: guess what we'd, what I'd like to think would be 369 00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:59,550 S2: a lasting impact of the highly public, um, rise and 370 00:20:59,550 --> 00:21:03,430 S2: fall of of of Belle Gibson is that people might 371 00:21:03,470 --> 00:21:08,430 S2: apply greater scrutiny to these sorts of miracle cure claims 372 00:21:08,430 --> 00:21:11,830 S2: when they're presented on, on Instagram, because, you know, there's 373 00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:15,390 S2: nothing wrong with eating healthy and doing yoga or whatever 374 00:21:15,390 --> 00:21:16,909 S2: it might be. But the real dark side of the 375 00:21:16,910 --> 00:21:21,070 S2: wellness industry is often found on places like Instagram, where 376 00:21:21,070 --> 00:21:25,070 S2: it's espousing do this instead of conventional medicine at the 377 00:21:25,070 --> 00:21:29,830 S2: expense of conventional therapies. That's a real dark underbelly of 378 00:21:29,830 --> 00:21:32,230 S2: the movement. Um, that's still there. But yeah, I guess 379 00:21:32,230 --> 00:21:35,109 S2: we hope that, um, we hope that people will apply 380 00:21:35,150 --> 00:21:39,139 S2: greater scrutiny. And I guess a tangible impact is, um, 381 00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:41,300 S2: Penguin Random House, one of the world's biggest publishers, who 382 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:46,220 S2: partnered with Bell Gibson and propelled her star. They as 383 00:21:46,220 --> 00:21:50,139 S2: part of the federal court proceedings against Bell. They were 384 00:21:50,140 --> 00:21:55,580 S2: penalized $30,000, but more importantly, they have been required to 385 00:21:55,619 --> 00:22:01,180 S2: include a disclaimer in every cookbook or book that promotes 386 00:22:01,380 --> 00:22:06,740 S2: nutrition and unproven health claims they have to include include 387 00:22:06,780 --> 00:22:09,740 S2: a disclaimer now that says this, this is, uh, this 388 00:22:09,740 --> 00:22:14,300 S2: is not medical advice. I think that will make also 389 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:17,460 S2: big corporations the likes who partnered with Bell Gibson to 390 00:22:17,580 --> 00:22:21,020 S2: fact check these too good to be true claims of 391 00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:24,180 S2: health miracles, which are often too good to be true 392 00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:24,860 S2: for a reason. 393 00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:28,300 S1: Okay, so let's talk about what consequences Bell Gibson faced, 394 00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:32,180 S1: if any Bo did police or anyone step in? I mean, 395 00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:33,020 S1: what's happened? 396 00:22:33,380 --> 00:22:38,490 S5: No. Victoria Police ruled out a criminal investigation fairly early 397 00:22:38,490 --> 00:22:42,530 S5: on in the piece. Consumer affairs did launch an investigation, 398 00:22:42,530 --> 00:22:44,970 S5: and they ended up taking her to the Federal Court 399 00:22:45,010 --> 00:22:50,530 S5: of Australia. That case wrapped up in 2017, and Belle 400 00:22:50,530 --> 00:22:56,250 S5: Gibson was convicted of engaging in misleading and deceptive conduct 401 00:22:56,369 --> 00:22:59,209 S5: in relation to her health claims, and also in relation 402 00:22:59,210 --> 00:23:03,490 S5: to the fundraising appeals. So she was fined more than 403 00:23:03,490 --> 00:23:05,850 S5: $400,000 in the end. 404 00:23:06,090 --> 00:23:11,650 S12: A fine of $410,000, but still no apology from Belle Gibson. 405 00:23:11,690 --> 00:23:14,450 S5: Instead, Nick and I have over the years checked in 406 00:23:14,450 --> 00:23:17,770 S5: with Consumer Affairs Victoria to get an update on that. Fine. 407 00:23:18,130 --> 00:23:22,090 S5: The last meaningful update that we got from the agency 408 00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:26,650 S5: was towards the end of 2023, when they said that 409 00:23:26,650 --> 00:23:29,130 S5: the fine was still outstanding, and I followed up and 410 00:23:29,130 --> 00:23:31,690 S5: I asked how much of the fine was still outstanding, 411 00:23:31,730 --> 00:23:35,680 S5: and they said the entire fine. So I. She was 412 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,440 S5: convicted in 2017. As of late 2023, she hadn't paid 413 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,800 S5: a cent. I went back to Consumer Affairs Victoria a 414 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,480 S5: couple of months ago and asked them for an update, 415 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,719 S5: and they refused to tell us. They said they were 416 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,560 S5: still pursuing her for the fine. But when asked how 417 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:57,199 S5: much was outstanding, they wouldn't say. So I personally I 418 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,600 S5: highly doubt anything has changed. Um, but I find it 419 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,560 S5: astonishing that someone can be fined 400 grand in the 420 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,200 S5: Federal Court of Australia and not pay it, and nothing happens. 421 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,240 S5: I said to Nick the other day, most people get 422 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,360 S5: a parking ticket and pay the fine. This is this 423 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,880 S5: is $400,000. I mean, she has been held to account, 424 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,639 S5: I guess, in public. She's gone through one of the 425 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,280 S5: biggest public shamings in Australia that I can recall. So, 426 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:36,110 S5: I mean, her reputation, uh, is completely shot. But yeah, 427 00:24:36,150 --> 00:24:38,590 S5: I think I think the fact that she's managed to 428 00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:41,630 S5: sort of wriggle out of, of actually paying back some 429 00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:44,550 S5: of the money that she earned from this scam would 430 00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:49,030 S5: infuriate the people who followed her. But Apple, I mean, 431 00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:53,590 S5: Apple has really escaped this, um, scot free. Apple has 432 00:24:53,869 --> 00:24:57,590 S5: never said a word about this. Their approach, when it 433 00:24:57,590 --> 00:25:01,550 S5: came to the sort of publicity storm around Belle Gibson 434 00:25:01,550 --> 00:25:05,030 S5: was just to remain silent. And as the world's most 435 00:25:05,030 --> 00:25:10,030 S5: valuable company, who backed her and handpicked her to have 436 00:25:10,430 --> 00:25:13,629 S5: her app as one of only 12 on the first 437 00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:18,390 S5: Apple Watch alongside Nike and Pinterest and Twitter. I mean, 438 00:25:18,430 --> 00:25:20,629 S5: I think it's I think it's a cop out. 439 00:25:20,910 --> 00:25:23,070 S1: And so, Nick, tell us, where is she now? 440 00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:26,230 S2: She hasn't been heard from since the conclusion of the 441 00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:31,109 S2: federal court case against her. She pops up here and there. 442 00:25:31,670 --> 00:25:35,580 S2: She ingratiated herself with an African community in Melbourne at 443 00:25:35,580 --> 00:25:38,419 S2: one point, and received a lot of questions in the 444 00:25:38,420 --> 00:25:40,300 S2: media about what she was doing now. 445 00:25:42,619 --> 00:25:48,060 S3: So you are here today. We met in Melbourne, Australia. 446 00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:51,900 S3: Our diaspora community, Oromo Community of Australia, met to discuss 447 00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:57,060 S3: the current situation of Ethiopia, specifically Oromia. 448 00:25:57,260 --> 00:25:59,740 S2: The last time she was heard from a TV news 449 00:25:59,740 --> 00:26:02,300 S2: crew ambushed her at a at a petrol station. 450 00:26:02,340 --> 00:26:04,420 S13: Is it time to pay that money back? Belle. 451 00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:08,260 S14: Don't put that camera up at me. I haven't paid 452 00:26:08,260 --> 00:26:10,659 S14: things because I can't afford to. 453 00:26:10,980 --> 00:26:13,420 S2: That was the last time we've seen her. She's keeping 454 00:26:13,420 --> 00:26:15,860 S2: a relatively low profile these days. 455 00:26:17,260 --> 00:26:19,180 S1: And finally. I mean, just to wrap up, I think 456 00:26:19,180 --> 00:26:21,980 S1: many listeners would assume, you know, putting out a book 457 00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:25,379 S1: and having a Netflix show being made based on the 458 00:26:25,380 --> 00:26:28,220 S1: book that you've written, that would be a super exciting thing. 459 00:26:28,260 --> 00:26:31,340 S1: But what is it actually like to revisit this story again? 460 00:26:31,420 --> 00:26:36,380 S5: Revisiting the story is it's interesting because it's a lot, 461 00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:38,859 S5: a lot of the issues that were raised in the 462 00:26:38,859 --> 00:26:42,659 S5: Mel Gibson case are still very prevalent today. You know, 463 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:44,419 S5: it was almost ten years ago that we wrote the 464 00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:48,340 S5: first critical piece about Mel Gibson, and I don't think 465 00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:52,660 S5: a lot has changed. I think social media is still 466 00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:56,700 S5: awash with false claims and and people spruiking all sorts 467 00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:57,379 S5: of rubbish. 468 00:26:57,700 --> 00:26:59,900 S2: It's not just the the rise and fall of of 469 00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:04,939 S2: a scam artist. It's about the, the dangers of, um, of, 470 00:27:05,340 --> 00:27:09,020 S2: you know, unregulated health advice, the power of social media, 471 00:27:09,060 --> 00:27:13,620 S2: people's willingness to, to to swallow miracle stories a little 472 00:27:13,619 --> 00:27:17,859 S2: too easily, the failure of big companies to scrutinise these claims. 473 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:20,100 S2: We were really pleased to see the show do a 474 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:22,980 S2: good job of giving a bigger platform to those sorts 475 00:27:22,980 --> 00:27:23,619 S2: of issues. 476 00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:26,179 S1: Well, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to both of 477 00:27:26,180 --> 00:27:29,260 S1: you about this. It's such a crucial topic. So thank 478 00:27:29,260 --> 00:27:31,690 S1: you so much, Nick and Bo for your time. 479 00:27:31,930 --> 00:27:33,050 S2: Thanks, Sam. Sam. 480 00:27:44,050 --> 00:27:48,050 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole. 481 00:27:48,290 --> 00:27:51,890 S1: Our executive producer is Tami Mills. Our head of audio 482 00:27:51,890 --> 00:27:54,730 S1: is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of 483 00:27:54,730 --> 00:27:57,330 S1: The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. If you enjoy 484 00:27:57,330 --> 00:27:59,889 S1: the show and want more of our journalism, subscribe to 485 00:27:59,890 --> 00:28:02,970 S1: our newspapers today. It's the best way to support what 486 00:28:02,970 --> 00:28:09,250 S1: we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe and sign 487 00:28:09,250 --> 00:28:12,410 S1: up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a comprehensive 488 00:28:12,410 --> 00:28:15,770 S1: summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights 489 00:28:15,770 --> 00:28:18,970 S1: in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. 490 00:28:19,609 --> 00:28:23,490 S1: I'm Samantha Salinger, Maurice. This is the morning edition. Thanks 491 00:28:23,490 --> 00:28:24,250 S1: for listening.