1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,480 S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age. 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:09,480 S1: This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Seelinger Morris. It's Monday, 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:17,480 S1: December 15th. The video is, according to those who've seen it, 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,720 S1: horrific to watch two sailors cling to bits of their 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,720 S1: blown up boat in the Caribbean when they're killed by 6 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,400 S1: a US military strike. This only after the first strike 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,520 S1: on their boat failed to kill everybody on board. It 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,960 S1: has sparked outrage and led to accusations by Democrat and 9 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,600 S1: Republican lawmakers alike that the US secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,600 S1: has presided over a military mission that may have been 11 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,480 S1: marked by war crimes. Today, Andrew Bell, an expert on 12 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,800 S1: law and ethics in military operations and a senior research 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,280 S1: scholar at the center for International Security and Conflict at 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,370 S1: Stanford University on why Donald Trump has ordered multiple boat 15 00:01:01,370 --> 00:01:04,490 S1: strikes in the Caribbean, which have killed at least 80 people, 16 00:01:04,810 --> 00:01:13,330 S1: and whether this could splinter the MAGA movement. Hello, Andrew, 17 00:01:13,330 --> 00:01:15,009 S1: and welcome to the Morning Edition. 18 00:01:15,450 --> 00:01:16,610 S2: Thanks. It's good to be here. 19 00:01:16,890 --> 00:01:19,250 S1: So first off, I guess, what was your reaction when 20 00:01:19,250 --> 00:01:22,730 S1: you first heard reports about this latest American military strike 21 00:01:22,730 --> 00:01:26,290 S1: on a boat allegedly carrying drugs off the coast of Venezuela? 22 00:01:26,850 --> 00:01:29,330 S2: It's, uh, it's been it's been very troubling, I have 23 00:01:29,330 --> 00:01:29,690 S2: to say. 24 00:01:30,370 --> 00:01:33,490 S3: President Trump announced late today that the United States has 25 00:01:33,490 --> 00:01:36,410 S3: sunk a boat after it left Venezuela, carrying. 26 00:01:36,569 --> 00:01:39,130 S4: Confirmed that the U.S. launched a strike in the southern 27 00:01:39,130 --> 00:01:43,089 S4: Caribbean against a Venezuelan vessel that was allegedly carrying drugs. 28 00:01:43,170 --> 00:01:47,009 S5: The Trump administration is not backing down on its strategy 29 00:01:47,010 --> 00:01:51,930 S5: of lethal, but legally questionable strikes on suspected drug trafficking vessels. 30 00:01:51,970 --> 00:01:55,290 S5: Even amid all the scrutiny surrounding the double tap strike 31 00:01:55,330 --> 00:01:58,050 S5: on a boat back in September with some lawmakers. 32 00:01:58,050 --> 00:02:00,810 S6: Venezuela has been very bad, both in terms of drugs 33 00:02:01,050 --> 00:02:03,410 S6: and sending some of the worst criminals anywhere in the 34 00:02:03,410 --> 00:02:04,890 S6: world into our country. 35 00:02:06,050 --> 00:02:09,810 S2: So, of course, there's significant legal implications. There are moral 36 00:02:09,810 --> 00:02:11,770 S2: ethical implications. But for me, I think on a more 37 00:02:11,770 --> 00:02:14,570 S2: personal level as well, the tie to the US military, 38 00:02:14,570 --> 00:02:17,610 S2: I have some US military service in my background as well, 39 00:02:17,850 --> 00:02:20,210 S2: and it is very troubling to see this play out 40 00:02:20,210 --> 00:02:21,970 S2: and to play out as long as it has. So 41 00:02:22,370 --> 00:02:24,850 S2: it's very important to to have these conversations about what 42 00:02:24,850 --> 00:02:28,290 S2: exactly is happening and what the next steps may be. 43 00:02:30,610 --> 00:02:33,010 S1: Okay, we're going to get into all of the implications 44 00:02:33,010 --> 00:02:35,330 S1: in just a moment, and why it's become such a 45 00:02:35,330 --> 00:02:38,609 S1: lightning rod for both Democrats and Republicans alike. But can 46 00:02:38,610 --> 00:02:40,970 S1: you tell me why has Donald Trump actually been ordering 47 00:02:40,970 --> 00:02:42,450 S1: these strikes to begin with? 48 00:02:42,930 --> 00:02:46,530 S2: Yeah. So I think the clearest answer is, is essentially 49 00:02:46,530 --> 00:02:49,130 S2: what he signaled when he was elected. He wanted to 50 00:02:49,130 --> 00:02:53,090 S2: pursue an America first policy. He has definitely signaled throughout 51 00:02:53,330 --> 00:02:56,250 S2: most of his time in politics that he's not going 52 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:59,500 S2: to be constrained by anything resembling ethics or law or 53 00:02:59,660 --> 00:03:01,860 S2: any kind of constraints on what he thinks is his 54 00:03:02,060 --> 00:03:05,820 S2: power to conduct policy. And so I think if you 55 00:03:05,820 --> 00:03:09,020 S2: if you take these into combination together, he is going 56 00:03:09,020 --> 00:03:15,579 S2: to pursue an anti-drug campaign to ostensibly protect America by 57 00:03:15,620 --> 00:03:17,419 S2: any means that he can or that he can get 58 00:03:17,419 --> 00:03:20,980 S2: away with it should be noted that the purpose of 59 00:03:20,980 --> 00:03:24,900 S2: the strikes is ostensibly a good one, that we do 60 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:29,540 S2: want to protect the United States from drugs infiltrating our borders, 61 00:03:29,540 --> 00:03:33,740 S2: that they do cause a lot of harm for our citizens. Uh, 62 00:03:33,740 --> 00:03:36,220 S2: the question, of course, is that when we're talking about 63 00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:40,820 S2: an anti-drug campaign to protect Americans and drugs flooding into America. Uh, 64 00:03:40,820 --> 00:03:42,940 S2: he seems to be raising a lot of questions because 65 00:03:42,980 --> 00:03:44,940 S2: at the same time that he's committing these strikes or 66 00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:49,620 S2: this campaign, he's also turning around and issuing pardons for 67 00:03:50,020 --> 00:03:52,980 S2: the Honduran former leader, who was convicted of major drug 68 00:03:52,980 --> 00:03:54,860 S2: operations against the United States. 69 00:03:55,180 --> 00:03:58,220 S7: Uh, the people of Honduras really thought he was set up, 70 00:03:58,220 --> 00:04:00,950 S7: and it was a terrible thing. He was the president 71 00:04:00,950 --> 00:04:03,390 S7: of the country, and they basically said he was a 72 00:04:03,390 --> 00:04:05,710 S7: drug dealer because he was the president of the country. 73 00:04:06,150 --> 00:04:09,830 S2: So it's it's hard to know exactly where his true 74 00:04:09,870 --> 00:04:12,670 S2: initiative lies. But I think essentially it does lie somewhere 75 00:04:12,670 --> 00:04:14,310 S2: in the realm of he's going to try to use 76 00:04:14,310 --> 00:04:16,790 S2: force as much as he can. He's going to direct 77 00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:19,510 S2: it against those he sees as adversaries. And and there's 78 00:04:19,510 --> 00:04:21,790 S2: not going to be much that the law or ethics 79 00:04:21,790 --> 00:04:24,110 S2: has to say in trying to trying to constrain that. 80 00:04:24,150 --> 00:04:25,150 S8: Okay. Well, let's get into. 81 00:04:25,150 --> 00:04:28,030 S1: One of the major questions here, which is do these 82 00:04:28,029 --> 00:04:30,870 S1: strikes because there's been a number of them, do they 83 00:04:30,870 --> 00:04:33,070 S1: actually breach the rule of law? Because I know that 84 00:04:33,070 --> 00:04:35,670 S1: I've been watching them as a layperson. I see the 85 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:38,550 S1: United States military attacking a Venezuelan boat. This is the 86 00:04:38,550 --> 00:04:41,350 S1: last one in particular, though no one on that boat 87 00:04:41,550 --> 00:04:44,349 S1: has been convicted by a U.S. court of smuggling drugs 88 00:04:44,350 --> 00:04:46,950 S1: into the country, as I understand it. And the United 89 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:50,310 S1: States and Venezuela are not actually at war. And I 90 00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:51,550 S1: think is that legal? 91 00:04:53,070 --> 00:04:55,870 S2: Right. So there are a number of legal issues that 92 00:04:55,870 --> 00:04:57,510 S2: are that are tied up in this, and it gets 93 00:04:57,550 --> 00:05:00,270 S2: a little bit complex, but essentially when you get down 94 00:05:00,270 --> 00:05:02,630 S2: to it, the legal issues, after you peel them back 95 00:05:02,630 --> 00:05:05,150 S2: a little bit, they're actually they're actually pretty clear. Um, 96 00:05:05,150 --> 00:05:06,789 S2: and this is one of the more frustrating things about 97 00:05:06,830 --> 00:05:09,950 S2: watching this play out in the US military and by 98 00:05:09,950 --> 00:05:14,750 S2: the administration. So essentially, we are talking about unlawful actions, 99 00:05:14,790 --> 00:05:17,750 S2: pretty starkly unlawful actions, and in a number of different 100 00:05:17,750 --> 00:05:20,750 S2: realms of law. So, um, all these coming together paints 101 00:05:20,790 --> 00:05:23,830 S2: a strong picture of a sense of, of, of quite, um, 102 00:05:23,950 --> 00:05:28,830 S2: grand impunity or perceived impunity by, uh, the president, perhaps 103 00:05:28,830 --> 00:05:32,390 S2: the most, most clear way to, to, to frame it is, um, 104 00:05:32,589 --> 00:05:34,390 S2: despite the fact that there's been a lot of discussion 105 00:05:34,390 --> 00:05:37,950 S2: about the laws of war, about war crimes, or is 106 00:05:37,950 --> 00:05:40,870 S2: this is this legal in law? Um, really a lot 107 00:05:40,870 --> 00:05:42,390 S2: of that is a bit of a is a bit 108 00:05:42,390 --> 00:05:44,790 S2: of a smokescreen or a bit of confusion around the 109 00:05:44,790 --> 00:05:48,990 S2: essential fact that what we're talking about is extrajudicial killing. 110 00:05:49,270 --> 00:05:51,710 S2: So war and war crimes and the laws of war 111 00:05:51,750 --> 00:05:56,310 S2: obviously apply during war. During war time. They're designed essentially 112 00:05:56,310 --> 00:05:58,760 S2: for a number of reasons. one to protect civilians and 113 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,440 S2: limit harm to civilians. But the flip side is actually 114 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,680 S2: they're designed to protect soldiers. And the design was actually 115 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,800 S2: they were designed more to protect soldiers before this idea 116 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,400 S2: that we should also protect civilians came into a global 117 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,719 S2: norm in the, in the, in the 20th century or so. Essentially, 118 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,200 S2: the idea was we know soldiers are going to fight. 119 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,520 S2: We know they're going to commit killing during wartime. We 120 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,040 S2: don't think that they should be prosecuted and sent to 121 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,320 S2: jail for committing these actions on behalf of their state. 122 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,760 S2: We don't want to send soldiers abroad to do what 123 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,440 S2: we asked them to do, and then have them come 124 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,000 S2: home and be prosecuted for killing, because killing generally is 125 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,640 S2: an unlawful act. And so there's a special carve out 126 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,640 S2: called the Combatants Privilege, which allows soldiers to engage in 127 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,040 S2: war and not be prosecuted for it as long as 128 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,520 S2: it's done in a lawful manner and against other combatants. 129 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,920 S2: We don't want them killing civilians if they can avoid it. Well, 130 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,680 S2: the critical point about that is this is all pertains 131 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,760 S2: to wartime. So we allow this broad exception to occur 132 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,720 S2: for soldiers during wartime. We don't want soldiers killing civilians 133 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:00,089 S2: or other people outside of war, because the other name 134 00:07:00,089 --> 00:07:03,969 S2: for that essentially is extrajudicial killing or murder. And what 135 00:07:03,970 --> 00:07:07,090 S2: we have here is essentially a case where there's almost 136 00:07:07,089 --> 00:07:10,330 S2: no evidence whatsoever that there's a war that's occurring or 137 00:07:10,330 --> 00:07:14,130 S2: anything that would conceivably be categorized as a war happening 138 00:07:14,130 --> 00:07:17,890 S2: between the United States and the drug gangs that that 139 00:07:17,890 --> 00:07:23,090 S2: the president is directing these targeted strikes against. So essentially, 140 00:07:23,090 --> 00:07:26,290 S2: just looking in pure terms of the actual strikes themselves, 141 00:07:26,290 --> 00:07:30,570 S2: the killing that's happening, this is a tantamount to it's 142 00:07:30,570 --> 00:07:32,610 S2: a strong word, but there's really no other legal way 143 00:07:32,610 --> 00:07:35,250 S2: to describe it as murder being committed by the US 144 00:07:35,250 --> 00:07:39,170 S2: military on behalf of or on the orders of the administration, 145 00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:42,210 S2: the Secretary of Defense, and even those who flow down 146 00:07:42,210 --> 00:07:43,210 S2: the chain of command. 147 00:07:44,210 --> 00:07:47,490 S1: Okay. Wow. So if I understand correctly, you're saying this 148 00:07:47,530 --> 00:07:51,530 S1: appears to be state sanctioned murder. So has Donald Trump 149 00:07:51,650 --> 00:07:54,450 S1: or the administration just outright lied? Because we know that 150 00:07:54,450 --> 00:07:58,330 S1: the administration has, I think, been justifying these attacks on 151 00:07:58,330 --> 00:08:00,370 S1: these boats over the last couple of months by saying 152 00:08:00,370 --> 00:08:03,570 S1: that the US is in an armed conflict with, quote unquote, 153 00:08:03,610 --> 00:08:08,210 S1: narco terrorists, unquote, trying to kill Americans. Uh, you know, 154 00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:11,330 S1: which the administration argues permits the use of lethal force. 155 00:08:11,330 --> 00:08:13,650 S1: So is that just an out and out lie? 156 00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:18,930 S2: Well, so there's been this tradition of US presidents, um, 157 00:08:18,930 --> 00:08:22,170 S2: the US government, US presidents, different executives over the past 158 00:08:23,010 --> 00:08:25,810 S2: half century or so to continually push the envelope in 159 00:08:25,810 --> 00:08:29,210 S2: various ways about using force and using executive power. Uh, 160 00:08:29,210 --> 00:08:31,930 S2: and in this sense, the Trump administration is very much 161 00:08:31,930 --> 00:08:35,570 S2: continuing this line of, of action. Um, and so I 162 00:08:35,570 --> 00:08:39,730 S2: don't want to necessarily focus only on this administration in 163 00:08:39,730 --> 00:08:43,410 S2: the sense of increasing reliance on military power in ways 164 00:08:43,410 --> 00:08:48,209 S2: that are potentially expanding the interpretation of laws of war 165 00:08:48,250 --> 00:08:52,250 S2: or US domestic law. But what we have here that's 166 00:08:52,250 --> 00:08:56,179 S2: different is that the administration is making the case that 167 00:08:56,179 --> 00:08:58,220 S2: the laws of war apply. That there's a war that's 168 00:08:58,220 --> 00:09:03,020 S2: happening between the US and these drug gangs in a 169 00:09:03,020 --> 00:09:08,660 S2: situation where their evidence points completely against that interpretation. There's 170 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:13,060 S2: virtually no evidence whatsoever that there's some sort of war 171 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:18,620 S2: state or a military action or combat operations happening between 172 00:09:19,020 --> 00:09:22,300 S2: the US and the US military and these these drug 173 00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:25,700 S2: gangs and these drug drug traffickers. Now, it's been kind 174 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:28,660 S2: of hard to to disentangle or to pull out the 175 00:09:28,660 --> 00:09:33,220 S2: administration's justification for this. So sometime late in October, the 176 00:09:33,220 --> 00:09:38,220 S2: administration did issue a letter to Congress that reportedly was 177 00:09:38,380 --> 00:09:42,500 S2: outlining the legal justifications and attempting to paint a picture 178 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:46,699 S2: of of a legal situation that would permit the use 179 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:49,579 S2: of force, assuming that this was some sort of campaign 180 00:09:49,580 --> 00:09:53,820 S2: during combat operations or during during a conflict. And in 181 00:09:53,820 --> 00:09:56,390 S2: doing so, I think the administration was trying to draw 182 00:09:56,390 --> 00:09:58,590 S2: upon this history that the US has had over the 183 00:09:58,590 --> 00:10:02,190 S2: past 20 years in the gwot post-war era of using 184 00:10:02,190 --> 00:10:07,870 S2: drone strikes, of targeting individuals in campaigns against terrorist groups 185 00:10:07,870 --> 00:10:11,910 S2: or insurgent groups. Campaigns in Africa and Yemen, Iraq and 186 00:10:11,950 --> 00:10:15,150 S2: Afghanistan and Pakistan, of course. And so the administration is 187 00:10:15,150 --> 00:10:20,110 S2: trying to, I think, put this current situation in the 188 00:10:20,110 --> 00:10:22,670 S2: same category as that, that we're just committing drone strikes. 189 00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:25,110 S2: And and I think in some ways, they're hoping that 190 00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:27,950 S2: the American public will just sort of see this all 191 00:10:27,950 --> 00:10:30,189 S2: as part and parcel of the same thing that the 192 00:10:30,190 --> 00:10:33,350 S2: US has been doing over the past 20 years. We've 193 00:10:33,390 --> 00:10:36,949 S2: unfortunately become somewhat inured, inured to using drone strikes and 194 00:10:36,950 --> 00:10:41,350 S2: military force around the world against against individuals and different 195 00:10:41,390 --> 00:10:44,550 S2: non-state groups. And for what it's worth, on the face 196 00:10:44,550 --> 00:10:46,550 S2: of it, that that sounds kind of similar if you're 197 00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:49,910 S2: if you're not thinking about these too deeply. And I 198 00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:54,350 S2: think many in the American populace have sort of taken 199 00:10:54,470 --> 00:10:57,750 S2: that that attitude because it's hard to understand. And there's, 200 00:10:57,790 --> 00:10:59,950 S2: you know, because of the legal issues that could be involved. 201 00:11:00,190 --> 00:11:03,950 S2: But most clearly, the biggest difference, again, as I mentioned, 202 00:11:03,990 --> 00:11:07,630 S2: is that when you don't have an actual state of 203 00:11:07,630 --> 00:11:11,829 S2: war or some sort of, uh, intensity of combat operations 204 00:11:11,830 --> 00:11:15,870 S2: happening between the US and a non-state armed group such 205 00:11:15,870 --> 00:11:18,830 S2: as these, these drug groups, then you don't have you 206 00:11:18,830 --> 00:11:20,630 S2: don't have a war, you don't have a state of war. 207 00:11:20,750 --> 00:11:22,070 S2: And if you don't have a state of war, then 208 00:11:22,070 --> 00:11:23,750 S2: you don't have the law of armed conflict or the 209 00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:25,590 S2: laws of war. And if you don't have the laws 210 00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:28,710 S2: of war, then you don't have these various, uh, privileges 211 00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:31,270 S2: or exceptions that allow you to, to use military force 212 00:11:31,309 --> 00:11:35,550 S2: against individuals. And so I'll just say is that, uh, 213 00:11:35,550 --> 00:11:39,110 S2: I think the administration is trying desperately to paint this picture. 214 00:11:39,110 --> 00:11:41,790 S2: They're trying to put these different legal pieces together from 215 00:11:41,790 --> 00:11:44,270 S2: what we understand in the reporting. They're trying to paint 216 00:11:44,270 --> 00:11:46,910 S2: this as, um, the drug groups, as an organized armed group. 217 00:11:46,910 --> 00:11:49,630 S2: And there are different requirements for that under international law. 218 00:11:49,870 --> 00:11:52,429 S2: I think they're trying to make the argument that these 219 00:11:52,429 --> 00:11:56,280 S2: drugs are somehow an attack on American citizens, that somehow 220 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,640 S2: American citizens will die because of these drugs, and therefore 221 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,400 S2: that equates to an attack that these drugs are war 222 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,120 S2: sustaining material, which there's a there's some, you know, some 223 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,000 S2: exceptions or some categories in international law for you to 224 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,600 S2: be able to attack those or maybe military objectives. But um, 225 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,959 S2: but again, it's, it's, you know, apart from all these 226 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,120 S2: legal interpretations and maneuvers that the administration is trying to make, 227 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,480 S2: it essentially goes back to the idea of, do you 228 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,679 S2: have any evidence that there is a war happening between, uh, 229 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,000 S2: these drug cartels and and unfortunately, uh, I think the 230 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,040 S2: silence is deafening. We do not see any, any evidence 231 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,280 S2: put forward at all by the administration. And I think 232 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:32,960 S2: that that in a lot of ways tells us what 233 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,920 S2: we need to understand about the true characterization of this, 234 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:36,920 S2: of this campaign. 235 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,360 S1: We know that this strike on September 2nd is really 236 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,440 S1: horrified people. The president of Colombia has said that it 237 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,360 S1: constitutes a crime against humanity. So can you briefly walk 238 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,160 S1: us through this September 2nd strike and in particular the 239 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,650 S1: second strike, and why it's been so chilling for so 240 00:12:53,650 --> 00:12:54,370 S1: many people? 241 00:12:55,210 --> 00:12:58,730 S2: Sure. So I think the exact circumstances and the facts 242 00:12:58,730 --> 00:13:02,530 S2: from that case are still not completely clear. And there's 243 00:13:02,570 --> 00:13:05,730 S2: ongoing investigation and reporting. That's, I think, trying to uncover 244 00:13:05,730 --> 00:13:08,330 S2: a little bit more as to what happened during that event. 245 00:13:08,610 --> 00:13:10,730 S2: As best as we can tell at this time from 246 00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:14,250 S2: the reporting. Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of defense, did issue 247 00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:17,890 S2: orders on behalf of President Trump to start this campaign 248 00:13:17,929 --> 00:13:20,650 S2: of strikes against drug vessels in the Caribbean at the 249 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:25,890 S2: time and with the order to not necessarily to to 250 00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:29,010 S2: leave no quarter, but that to kill all the sailors 251 00:13:29,010 --> 00:13:33,690 S2: on board. So it's a somewhat a slight differentiation in meaning, 252 00:13:33,690 --> 00:13:36,689 S2: but essentially they're all it gets to the similar point 253 00:13:36,690 --> 00:13:40,050 S2: of they wanted to ensure that the sailors on those 254 00:13:40,050 --> 00:13:42,650 S2: ships were, were struck and killed, that the ships themselves 255 00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:45,450 S2: would be sunk and the drugs would be, would then 256 00:13:45,490 --> 00:13:48,610 S2: be lost at sea. So the reporting, from what we 257 00:13:48,610 --> 00:13:51,410 S2: can tell so far has been that the military was 258 00:13:51,410 --> 00:13:54,579 S2: tracking a drug vessel engaged in one of these these 259 00:13:54,580 --> 00:13:57,940 S2: drug transit routes. After some time of tracking it, the 260 00:13:57,940 --> 00:14:02,500 S2: order was given by Secretary Hegseth, flowing through through the 261 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:05,140 S2: admiral in charge of the task force at the time, 262 00:14:05,179 --> 00:14:08,819 S2: the JSOC task force to commit the strike. And from 263 00:14:08,820 --> 00:14:10,900 S2: what we understand, it was about a 40 minute time 264 00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:14,980 S2: period or so that this ship was in distress, that 265 00:14:14,980 --> 00:14:18,699 S2: the sailors were there trying to survive that situation, at 266 00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:21,620 S2: which point Second Strike was then called on the ship. 267 00:14:22,020 --> 00:14:26,060 S9: We're learning more details on the controversial double tap strike 268 00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:29,900 S9: that killed survivors on an alleged drug boat near Venezuela. 269 00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:33,380 S10: Exclusive Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth will be on Capitol Hill 270 00:14:33,380 --> 00:14:36,180 S10: this afternoon. He's briefing the group of top lawmakers known 271 00:14:36,180 --> 00:14:38,700 S10: as the Gang of Eight, on a lethal attack on 272 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:41,660 S10: a suspected drug boat that some are calling a war crime. 273 00:14:41,740 --> 00:14:42,540 S10: The early September. 274 00:14:42,580 --> 00:14:45,620 S2: It's notable that at that time, there were not orders 275 00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:49,020 S2: given to the military forces on site or in conducting 276 00:14:49,020 --> 00:14:51,980 S2: the strike as to what what they should do if 277 00:14:52,140 --> 00:14:54,860 S2: there were survivors that that just had not been under 278 00:14:54,860 --> 00:14:58,660 S2: consideration as part of the initial plans. Interestingly, later, later 279 00:14:58,660 --> 00:15:02,500 S2: strikes did then take this this eventuality into into account 280 00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:05,260 S2: so that they did have resources on hand to rescue 281 00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:08,860 S2: those sailors and then to repatriate them to, to, to 282 00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:13,060 S2: their home nation or to wherever. So essentially, um, the, 283 00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:16,060 S2: the laws were being or the directives were being done 284 00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:18,900 S2: on the fly, in a sense, as they understood the 285 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:21,619 S2: implications of what was happening as part of this military campaign. 286 00:15:23,740 --> 00:15:36,900 S1: We'll be right back. And so, part of the horror, 287 00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:40,300 S1: I guess, that people have expressed in responding to these 288 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:42,500 S1: reports is that the video of the attack, as I 289 00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:46,100 S1: understand it, suggests that the two remaining surviving sailors who 290 00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:48,300 S1: weren't killed in the first strike, that they were just 291 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:51,260 S1: holding on to remains of their boat. Right. That contrary 292 00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:55,150 S1: to the administration's claims that these two survivors had radioed 293 00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:58,510 S1: for backup and they were therefore about to re-enter combat 294 00:15:58,510 --> 00:16:00,550 S1: and I guess, be in a position to harm American 295 00:16:00,550 --> 00:16:04,350 S1: citizens by somehow getting the drugs to shore. That's the problem, right? 296 00:16:04,390 --> 00:16:07,830 S1: That the video would suggest quite the opposite, that actually 297 00:16:07,830 --> 00:16:12,550 S1: these two people were possibly very close to slipping into 298 00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:15,230 S1: the ocean holding, you know, from holding onto the debris. 299 00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:17,870 S2: Yes, absolutely. And of course, we still don't. We haven't 300 00:16:17,870 --> 00:16:21,550 S2: seen the the public video. So we don't know exactly 301 00:16:21,550 --> 00:16:24,510 S2: what the status was. And there's different interpretations by different 302 00:16:24,510 --> 00:16:27,150 S2: members of Congress as to what exactly was happening. But 303 00:16:27,150 --> 00:16:31,350 S2: essentially the argument that's being put forward by by some Republicans, 304 00:16:31,390 --> 00:16:34,590 S2: Senator Cotton being one of them, that somehow they were 305 00:16:34,590 --> 00:16:37,150 S2: trying to, quote unquote, get back in the fight or 306 00:16:37,270 --> 00:16:40,950 S2: radio for help, for assistance from other drug members. It's it's, uh, 307 00:16:40,950 --> 00:16:43,510 S2: it's a bit of smoke and mirrors because essentially what 308 00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:46,870 S2: you have is, is a ship shipwrecked? Uh, crew. They're 309 00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:49,310 S2: they're in the water. The vessel is burning. They're clearly 310 00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:52,160 S2: in distress. Um, at which point all the obligations under 311 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,160 S2: international law and us US law then kick in, and 312 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,480 S2: that you're supposed to provide assistance to them. So the 313 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,760 S2: fact that at that point, someone in the chain of 314 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:06,920 S2: command then authorized yet another strike is extremely troubling, extremely problematic, 315 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,400 S2: and I think just speaks more generally to the very 316 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:16,119 S2: severe issues regarding legal constraints and the legal advice and 317 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,240 S2: the involvement of the legal institutions in the US military 318 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,800 S2: in providing guidance to the to US military operational forces 319 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,040 S2: on the employment of force. This essentially should not be happening. Um, 320 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,600 S2: and those who have served in positions of judge advocates 321 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,960 S2: or jags in the US military on the whole, have 322 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,400 S2: been pretty, pretty well horrified to watch and see what 323 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,320 S2: what has been happening. Uh, there's been a story, I think, 324 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,680 S2: a justifiable one that the military has told itself in 325 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,560 S2: a lot of ways in the post-Vietnam era, which is 326 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:54,040 S2: that military has generally adopted very strong norms regarding lawful 327 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,800 S2: use of force. Ethical employment of combat combat forces, an 328 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,679 S2: attempt to try to be on the right side of history, 329 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,320 S2: to earn that legitimacy that the military has earned over 330 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,840 S2: the past half century or so, and justifiably so. Um, 331 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,840 S2: and to to see this play out in the way 332 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,720 S2: that it has, I think, has shattered a lot of 333 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,040 S2: illusions that that the military has had about how strong 334 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,520 S2: those norms are and how much it is able to 335 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,879 S2: defend itself against the political pressures that could be coming 336 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,960 S2: from political actors above that may not have those ideals 337 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:24,560 S2: at heart. 338 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,840 S1: And there's been some notable Republicans, right, who have really 339 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,080 S1: spoken out against this. I know that Senator Rand Paul, 340 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,080 S1: he accused Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth of either lying in 341 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,960 S1: his public response to news reports about the strike, and 342 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,040 S1: he has co-sponsored resolutions to block unauthorized military action in 343 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,680 S1: the Caribbean and Venezuela. And we know that, again, Republican 344 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,490 S1: Senator Thom Tillis, he told CNN that whoever was responsible 345 00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:54,610 S1: for ordering the second boat strike needs to be held accountable, 346 00:18:54,609 --> 00:18:56,850 S1: saying you don't have to have served in the military 347 00:18:56,850 --> 00:18:59,730 S1: to understand that that was a violation of ethical, moral 348 00:18:59,730 --> 00:19:03,929 S1: and legal code. So are we seeing a splintering of 349 00:19:03,930 --> 00:19:05,650 S1: the MAGA movement, do you think, or is that is 350 00:19:05,650 --> 00:19:08,649 S1: it to too strong to say that, or are we 351 00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:10,570 S1: witnessing something of a turning point? 352 00:19:11,410 --> 00:19:13,370 S2: Yeah, it's a it's a really good question. And I 353 00:19:13,410 --> 00:19:16,250 S2: think we'll we'll see. I think we've been to a 354 00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:19,490 S2: point before where it seemed as if President Trump was 355 00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:23,210 S2: at his nadir and, and maybe had lost his, his, uh, 356 00:19:23,410 --> 00:19:26,650 S2: the opportunity to, to be part of politics and, and 357 00:19:26,650 --> 00:19:29,690 S2: the wake of the January 6th, uh, events and, um, 358 00:19:29,730 --> 00:19:32,610 S2: only to see him come roaring back and, uh, regain 359 00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:36,610 S2: the enthusiasm of MAGA base and come to power. So 360 00:19:36,650 --> 00:19:39,050 S2: I think we are seeing a bit of a splintering, uh, 361 00:19:39,050 --> 00:19:42,210 S2: there certainly there's some daylight that we haven't seen in 362 00:19:42,250 --> 00:19:45,970 S2: the prior months. Um, but I, I'm hesitant to say 363 00:19:45,970 --> 00:19:49,540 S2: that there'll be any long term consequences for the president 364 00:19:49,540 --> 00:19:53,620 S2: himself that comes out of this. I think the strongest, uh, 365 00:19:53,619 --> 00:19:57,620 S2: perhaps constraint that or greatest reaction we might see at 366 00:19:57,619 --> 00:20:01,100 S2: some point if this does develop into a true scandal 367 00:20:01,340 --> 00:20:05,659 S2: legally and politically, is that Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth 368 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,139 S2: would be asked to step down. I have a hard 369 00:20:08,140 --> 00:20:10,940 S2: time really seeing that because Trump is very, very keen 370 00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:15,460 S2: on loyalty and loyalty among his staff. And it's important 371 00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:18,700 S2: to remember that the secretary defense secretary is there precisely 372 00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:23,379 S2: because of his lack of experience, of his lack of 373 00:20:23,380 --> 00:20:26,700 S2: of authority and knowledge on these issues. The characteristics that 374 00:20:26,740 --> 00:20:28,300 S2: may put him there are the ones that have led 375 00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:30,939 S2: to this kind of event. And it really goes to 376 00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:33,939 S2: show why that position is so important. You know, perhaps 377 00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:37,300 S2: the number two most powerful position in the world. And 378 00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:38,939 S2: and we'll see where it goes from here. So it 379 00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:42,419 S2: just depends on the nature of the Republicans in Congress and, 380 00:20:42,460 --> 00:20:44,300 S2: and the American people. And we'll hope that there will 381 00:20:44,340 --> 00:20:47,100 S2: be some sort of constraint or some sort of, I think, 382 00:20:47,140 --> 00:20:49,540 S2: recognition of the importance of this that might, might come 383 00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:50,179 S2: out of this. 384 00:20:50,660 --> 00:20:53,060 S1: And Andrew, I guess just to wrap up, I'm really 385 00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:56,060 S1: wondering where these latest actions in the Caribbean, these boat 386 00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:58,859 S1: strikes where they could lead, you know, do they point 387 00:20:58,859 --> 00:21:02,300 S1: to any particularly worrying consequences, whether it's practical ones in 388 00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:05,020 S1: terms of how American military personnel might be treated by 389 00:21:05,060 --> 00:21:09,500 S1: other countries, or perhaps, I don't know, political consequences that 390 00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:10,540 S1: might come from this. 391 00:21:11,260 --> 00:21:15,340 S2: Yeah, it's a great question. And the answer is yes. 392 00:21:15,820 --> 00:21:20,820 S2: And we hope that the consequences won't carry forward too much. 393 00:21:20,820 --> 00:21:23,020 S2: We hope that this this will remain a more of 394 00:21:23,020 --> 00:21:26,420 S2: a constrained event. And we won't see broader implications that 395 00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:30,619 S2: could have greater implications for the military, US military or 396 00:21:30,619 --> 00:21:34,219 S2: those who serve in it, in it most directly, of course, 397 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:37,700 S2: that there is the potential, at least in theory, that 398 00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:42,340 S2: these actions open up US military personnel to potential prosecutions 399 00:21:42,340 --> 00:21:46,260 S2: for some of these events. I think more broadly, there's 400 00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:50,750 S2: there's bigger potential issues for the military. Um, of course, 401 00:21:51,390 --> 00:21:54,830 S2: very directly that that we're already seeing that, um, the 402 00:21:54,869 --> 00:21:58,230 S2: partnership from our partners and allies are starting to be limited, 403 00:21:58,230 --> 00:22:00,189 S2: at least in the region. So there are reports that 404 00:22:00,670 --> 00:22:04,030 S2: our allies, NATO allies, are limiting some of their, um, 405 00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:08,630 S2: sharing of intelligence information and partnership with those forces operating 406 00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:11,990 S2: in that area. Um, and rightfully so. I think, uh, 407 00:22:12,030 --> 00:22:15,230 S2: going forward, we could see more of that happening, more daylight, uh, 408 00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:19,750 S2: occurring between US forces and, and its partners and allies. Um, 409 00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:23,110 S2: and for me, what what really is concerning is, is that, uh, 410 00:22:23,109 --> 00:22:26,389 S2: deeper ethical drift that can take place, um, if it 411 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:29,550 S2: is so easy to, to see this happen in such 412 00:22:29,550 --> 00:22:32,710 S2: a short period of time, relatively speaking, within the US military, 413 00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:36,390 S2: if we see senior commanders following these orders and implementing 414 00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:40,190 S2: these orders, if we're seeing, um, judge advocates, legal experts 415 00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:44,950 S2: being sidelined or complicit in these, and again, they're being told, uh, 416 00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:48,080 S2: in a lot of ways from the interpretation from the 417 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,080 S2: white House, that the white House has concluded that these 418 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,000 S2: are lawful strikes. So it's now very difficult for for 419 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,520 S2: members of the military to argue that they are, um, 420 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,280 S2: are are following an unlawful order because they're being given 421 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,320 S2: the guidance that this is a lawful order and to 422 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,720 S2: not follow that is now prosecutable under the UCMJ, the 423 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,400 S2: Uniform Code of Military Justice. That is the controlling law 424 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,480 S2: for US military members. So it speaks to a number 425 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,280 S2: of very deep problems, ethically and legally within the military. Um, 426 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,359 S2: I'm hopeful that, um, that we will see an ending 427 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,880 S2: of this, um, sooner rather than later. And I think 428 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,359 S2: there's a lot of hard questions that those currently in 429 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,120 S2: the military, those who have served in the past, will 430 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,160 S2: begin to need to start asking themselves about how this 431 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,560 S2: has come to take place and what needs to be 432 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,520 S2: done in the future to to prevent a similar campaign. 433 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,360 S1: Wow. It's such an important space to be delving into. 434 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,160 S1: So thank you so much, Andrew, for your time. 435 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:47,560 S2: Thank you very much. 436 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,040 S1: Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself 437 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,120 S1: and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our 438 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,520 S1: head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is 439 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,159 S1: a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. 440 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,159 S1: If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism, 441 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,480 S1: subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to 442 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:26,760 S1: support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe 443 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,800 S1: and sign up for our newsletter to receive a comprehensive 444 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,520 S1: summary of the day's most important news, analysis and insights 445 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,800 S1: in your inbox every day. Links are in the show. Notes. 446 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,639 S1: I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks 447 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:44,440 S1: for listening.