1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,760 S1: Hi, it's Jacqueline Maley here. Happy new year. We're on 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,640 S1: a little break over summer. Lucky us. Before we return 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,760 S1: at the end of January for another year of Inside Politics. 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,560 S1: Today we're returning to an episode recorded in the wake 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,960 S1: of the divisive March for Australia protests, which became the 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,400 S1: vehicle for a hodgepodge of causes including immigration, an issue 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,319 S1: that would lead to Jacinta Nampijinpa Price's sacking from the 8 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:28,360 S1: frontbench of the opposition. This episode features chief political correspondent 9 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:36,560 S1: Paul Circle and federal political correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos. Welcome, guys. 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:38,040 S2: Hi, Jack. Morning. 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,240 S1: So, Paul, last weekend we saw these big anti-immigration rallies 12 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,560 S1: being held across the country. They were called the March 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,600 S1: for Australia rallies. They made the news, obviously, and there 14 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,279 S1: was particularly some violence at the Melbourne rally where we 15 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,120 S1: saw neo-Nazis showing up. And one was even sort of 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,680 S1: given permission to take the microphone and publicly address the 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,279 S1: rally in a sort of endorsement, almost, of that particular group. 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,670 S1: And this was despite an insistence from the organisers that 19 00:01:02,670 --> 00:01:06,070 S1: the rallies were attended by mainstream Australians. What reaction did 20 00:01:06,069 --> 00:01:07,630 S1: we see this week from Canberra? 21 00:01:08,069 --> 00:01:11,030 S3: Yeah, they were big rallies. I mean, they weren't as 22 00:01:11,030 --> 00:01:13,910 S3: violent or as incendiary as the Cronulla riots, but they 23 00:01:13,910 --> 00:01:15,990 S3: certainly carried echoes of it in terms of the size 24 00:01:15,990 --> 00:01:18,870 S3: and the tenor of some of the debate at these rallies. 25 00:01:19,069 --> 00:01:21,709 S3: In terms of how the reaction played out in Canberra 26 00:01:21,709 --> 00:01:24,270 S3: this week, the Prime Minister was particularly keen to strike 27 00:01:24,350 --> 00:01:28,470 S3: a measured tone. He wanted to acknowledge the legitimate concerns 28 00:01:28,470 --> 00:01:29,990 S3: of some of the people at the rally. 29 00:01:30,470 --> 00:01:33,550 S4: Do you think there were good people with legitimate concerns 30 00:01:33,550 --> 00:01:35,789 S4: at these anti-immigration rallies this weekend? 31 00:01:35,830 --> 00:01:38,590 S5: Of course, there's always good people will turn up to 32 00:01:38,630 --> 00:01:43,669 S5: demonstrate their views about particular issues. But what we have 33 00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:48,550 S5: here is neo-Nazis being given a platform. 34 00:01:49,350 --> 00:01:51,790 S3: He didn't want to cast them all as extremists. He 35 00:01:51,790 --> 00:01:55,190 S3: wanted to acknowledge that there has been high migration post 36 00:01:55,190 --> 00:01:59,270 S3: Covid after a period of low migration when lockdowns occurred, It, 37 00:01:59,790 --> 00:02:02,630 S3: which coincided with a housing crisis, and people feeling like 38 00:02:02,630 --> 00:02:05,110 S3: their lot in life was getting worse. We had an 39 00:02:05,110 --> 00:02:08,510 S3: inflation crisis as well, and when those problems are occurring 40 00:02:08,510 --> 00:02:12,750 S3: in society, there's a common tendency, as demonstrated through history, 41 00:02:12,750 --> 00:02:16,790 S3: to blame other groups in society, including migrants. So you 42 00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:19,750 S3: saw Albanese trying to kind of sit in the middle 43 00:02:19,750 --> 00:02:22,150 S3: of this debate. Sussan Ley tried to set the agenda 44 00:02:22,190 --> 00:02:24,190 S3: earlier in the week by saying the Prime Minister needed 45 00:02:24,190 --> 00:02:27,150 S3: to show leadership at this time of kind of fraying, 46 00:02:27,190 --> 00:02:31,590 S3: fraying of our social fabric. But the coalition's message got 47 00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:34,190 S3: muddied as the week went on, because some of the 48 00:02:34,190 --> 00:02:37,670 S3: more forceful right wingers in the party, including Jacinta Price 49 00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:42,910 S3: and Alex Antic, used some, at times controversial language to 50 00:02:42,950 --> 00:02:45,190 S3: talk about this issue. Jacinta price draped herself in the 51 00:02:45,190 --> 00:02:47,589 S3: Australian flag, which is the garb that many of these 52 00:02:47,590 --> 00:02:49,950 S3: protesters were using on Sunday. 53 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:51,710 S6: Senator McKim, on a point of order. 54 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:57,070 S7: Yes. Thank you president. I asked for a ruling, please, 55 00:02:57,070 --> 00:03:02,020 S7: on whether the senator is who's wrapped in, uh, the 56 00:03:02,020 --> 00:03:05,060 S7: national flag at the moment is contravening the standing order 57 00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:06,260 S7: that prevents props. 58 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:09,620 S4: Thank you, acting President. So disappointing from the Greens, but 59 00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:13,540 S4: also so typical. You can wear a kifa in here. 60 00:03:13,580 --> 00:03:15,900 S4: Perhaps you should remove that article from you whenever you 61 00:03:15,940 --> 00:03:18,820 S4: walk through these chambers. For the benefit of all Australians 62 00:03:18,820 --> 00:03:23,700 S4: in this country. Yes. Snark all you like. It's revolting. 63 00:03:23,980 --> 00:03:28,620 S3: Alex Antic, the, uh, most far right liberal senator, suggested 64 00:03:28,620 --> 00:03:32,220 S3: that the neo-Nazi group led by Thomas Sewell, who we saw, uh, 65 00:03:32,740 --> 00:03:35,420 S3: harass Jacinta Allan, the Victorian premier, at a press conference, 66 00:03:35,420 --> 00:03:39,180 S3: was effectively in some sort of psyop operation with ASIO. 67 00:03:39,380 --> 00:03:41,380 S3: And they're not a real organisation. And this is all 68 00:03:41,380 --> 00:03:43,900 S3: a government set up to try and create the impression 69 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:48,340 S3: that neo Nazis are a prominent force when actually Anti-migration 70 00:03:48,340 --> 00:03:50,860 S3: views are widespread. So there were some out there comments 71 00:03:50,860 --> 00:03:54,660 S3: in the Parliament this week, uh, and worth just very 72 00:03:54,660 --> 00:03:58,140 S3: briefly putting it into a bigger context. We've had the 73 00:03:58,140 --> 00:04:01,620 S3: ASIO boss, Mike Burgess, talking for years about the increased 74 00:04:01,620 --> 00:04:05,140 S3: risk of politically motivated violence. At the same time as 75 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:07,820 S3: populist movements are on the rise in the US with 76 00:04:07,820 --> 00:04:11,420 S3: Trump and in large parts of Europe. So all of 77 00:04:11,420 --> 00:04:16,859 S3: these extremist elements and these risks we've been hearing a 78 00:04:16,860 --> 00:04:19,500 S3: lot about are kind of coalescing and creating this big 79 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:22,260 S3: national conversation around radicalism in Australia. 80 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:24,580 S1: Yeah, and sort of some elements are hopping off the 81 00:04:24,580 --> 00:04:27,260 S1: internet and into real life tasks. You had a look 82 00:04:27,300 --> 00:04:29,700 S1: at immigration figures this week. So let's just go straight 83 00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:32,739 S1: to the facts, because there is this perception, rightly or wrongly, 84 00:04:32,779 --> 00:04:35,340 S1: among some sectors of the Australian population, that there are 85 00:04:35,339 --> 00:04:38,060 S1: too many migrants, and particularly in our big cities, where 86 00:04:38,380 --> 00:04:41,140 S1: you do see a lot of, I think probably temporary 87 00:04:41,180 --> 00:04:44,540 S1: migrants and people blame them, perhaps for the housing crisis 88 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:47,740 S1: and also maybe for sort of infrastructure gluts or kind of, 89 00:04:47,779 --> 00:04:50,460 S1: you know, jamming up infrastructure. What are the actual facts 90 00:04:50,460 --> 00:04:51,700 S1: on migration figures? 91 00:04:51,779 --> 00:04:55,260 S8: Well, if you look at the last two decades, so 92 00:04:55,380 --> 00:04:58,210 S8: since about oh four in the Howard era, you've had 93 00:04:58,210 --> 00:05:03,010 S8: a pretty steady approach to migration, where the population is 94 00:05:03,010 --> 00:05:07,849 S8: generally grown between 1 and 2% every year. Um, and 95 00:05:07,850 --> 00:05:13,089 S8: since 2004, migrants have contributed more to population growth than 96 00:05:13,250 --> 00:05:15,730 S8: natural increase, which refers to the number of people being 97 00:05:15,730 --> 00:05:17,969 S8: born minus the number of people who died. So migrants 98 00:05:17,970 --> 00:05:20,929 S8: have made up the kind of majority of population growth 99 00:05:20,930 --> 00:05:27,049 S8: for the last 20 years. Um, the big anomaly, I suppose, 100 00:05:27,089 --> 00:05:30,650 S8: as Paul said, happened during Covid. So we were on 101 00:05:30,650 --> 00:05:32,650 S8: track at that. That kind of steady rate of growth 102 00:05:32,650 --> 00:05:35,690 S8: between 1 and 2%. Then borders were shut. You had this, 103 00:05:35,690 --> 00:05:43,170 S8: this historic dip in, um, migration to negative migration. And 104 00:05:43,170 --> 00:05:47,410 S8: then when borders reopened, you had a historic surge. Um, 105 00:05:47,450 --> 00:05:52,330 S8: now when kind of, uh, people in the protest have 106 00:05:52,610 --> 00:05:55,370 S8: and it happens in Parliament as well, bring up this 107 00:05:55,370 --> 00:05:58,250 S8: argument that a million people came into the country in 108 00:05:58,410 --> 00:06:02,050 S8: two years. That's true. Um, but what that doesn't kind 109 00:06:02,050 --> 00:06:04,529 S8: of account for was it came off the back of 110 00:06:04,650 --> 00:06:08,650 S8: negative migration and actually the budget papers. So the budget 111 00:06:08,650 --> 00:06:13,050 S8: papers forecast migration for the next four years, every year. Um, 112 00:06:13,089 --> 00:06:15,730 S8: and they've gotten all muddled up with all these kind 113 00:06:15,730 --> 00:06:18,650 S8: of contradictory expectations, not being able to predict when borders 114 00:06:18,650 --> 00:06:21,530 S8: will open or close things like that. But for example, 115 00:06:21,529 --> 00:06:24,850 S8: if you go back to the 2019 budget delivered by 116 00:06:24,850 --> 00:06:29,810 S8: the Morrison government, which is the last pre Covid budget, 117 00:06:29,810 --> 00:06:33,370 S8: I suppose, and you look at its forecast for population 118 00:06:33,370 --> 00:06:37,089 S8: growth and you, which was a kind of steady steady 119 00:06:37,089 --> 00:06:42,250 S8: rate and you take that forward. The population um would 120 00:06:42,250 --> 00:06:45,410 S8: have been in 24 in 2024. Sorry. It would have 121 00:06:45,410 --> 00:06:49,010 S8: been almost 28 million. What we ended up with was 122 00:06:49,010 --> 00:06:53,930 S8: 27.4 million. So the population levels that we see now 123 00:06:53,970 --> 00:06:57,760 S8: are roughly on par with what governments were supposedly planning 124 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,320 S8: for five six years ago. So that's when you get 125 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,760 S8: to this kind of argument that that governments have been 126 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,320 S8: ushering in this kind of mass migration by stealth. Um, 127 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,640 S8: that doesn't add up when you look at what governments 128 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:10,920 S8: have been planning for, and then you get into a 129 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,640 S8: reasonable debate about housing and infrastructure and all of that. 130 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,640 S1: Yeah, yeah. So basically, Covid kind of really stuffed everything up. 131 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,640 S1: And I think that, um, or stuffed up all the projections. Okay. 132 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,400 S1: So Paul, let's talk about the political debate around migration, 133 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,120 S1: because as you say, it has become sort of globalized. 134 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,040 S1: Both labor and the coalition know that some voters, um, 135 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,640 S1: have concerns around there being too much immigration. And both 136 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,000 S1: parties went to the election with promises to cut immigration. 137 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,600 S1: That obviously didn't work so well for the coalition. But 138 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,360 S1: Labor's won government. Are they going to cut immigration? 139 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,520 S3: Yeah, well Labor's continuing on with their policies that they 140 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,840 S3: had before the last election to bring immigration down from 141 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,120 S3: those post Covid highs. Peter Dutton turned this into one 142 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,840 S3: of the most salient issues of the last term, not 143 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,720 S3: off his own bat. He picked up on something that 144 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,200 S3: was occurring in the community. I'm interested to ask now, 145 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,120 S3: is it right to say that the post Covid numbers 146 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,880 S3: did lead to a much higher perception of high immigration 147 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,320 S3: and a perception that immigrants were fuelling social issues in Australia? 148 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,840 S3: Or is that a bigger feature of political debate than 149 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,280 S3: it has been in polling of individuals? 150 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,640 S8: I think it depends who you are and where you live, right, 151 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,000 S8: and what your economic concerns are. I think research tells 152 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,400 S8: us that, that people who are concerned about economic security 153 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:32,439 S8: or housing insecurity are more likely to be concerned about immigration. Um, 154 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,360 S8: you know, you had in this recent period that really 155 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,680 S8: intersect with the housing debate, but but in previous times, 156 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,080 S8: you know, you've got traffic and congestion issues, and that 157 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,000 S8: also turns into a conversation about immigration. So I think 158 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,000 S8: everyone's kind of reality on that front will be different. 159 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,240 S8: But there's no doubt that, um, it the political narrative 160 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:59,630 S8: I think has, has helped to kind of consolidate that argument. 161 00:08:59,630 --> 00:09:05,350 S8: And I think that that housing immigration link there is 162 00:09:05,390 --> 00:09:08,190 S8: there there is a relationship there. But immigration is not 163 00:09:08,190 --> 00:09:11,949 S8: the only factor that influences housing. Housing shortages, housing prices 164 00:09:11,990 --> 00:09:14,470 S8: is it's a it's a much more complicated picture. What 165 00:09:14,470 --> 00:09:18,070 S8: I find really interesting is just talking to people in Parliament, 166 00:09:18,070 --> 00:09:21,589 S8: including coalition ministers, MPs, post-election, and a lot of them 167 00:09:21,590 --> 00:09:24,270 S8: will say people didn't buy it like we were. We 168 00:09:24,309 --> 00:09:27,190 S8: were drawing this simplistic link. Being like migrants and international 169 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:29,830 S8: students are the reasons you can't buy a house. And 170 00:09:29,830 --> 00:09:32,630 S8: it didn't land with people. And I think you saw 171 00:09:32,670 --> 00:09:37,510 S8: that in the election result. Um, which is why I 172 00:09:37,550 --> 00:09:41,430 S8: find it quite interesting that the coalition, in many ways 173 00:09:41,429 --> 00:09:45,790 S8: this week is still kind of giving this conversation a 174 00:09:45,790 --> 00:09:47,750 S8: similar framing. 175 00:09:47,790 --> 00:09:51,270 S1: The coalition leadership tried to strike a pretty, um, even 176 00:09:51,270 --> 00:09:54,910 S1: tone on this stuff. But we did see Coalition Senator 177 00:09:55,630 --> 00:09:59,070 S1: Jacinta Nampijinpa price makes them particularly sort of controversial comments 178 00:09:59,070 --> 00:10:02,110 S1: about the Indian community in particular that she got backlash on. 179 00:10:02,950 --> 00:10:05,150 S8: So you've got kind of Lee, I think, trying to 180 00:10:05,150 --> 00:10:08,110 S8: play both sides a little bit, being very kind of 181 00:10:08,150 --> 00:10:12,430 S8: much more empathetic, kind of where all migrants. I'm a migrant, 182 00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:15,270 S8: we love the migrant communities, while at the same time 183 00:10:15,790 --> 00:10:20,030 S8: kind of weighing into this debate around the housing link, 184 00:10:20,030 --> 00:10:22,589 S8: which didn't quite work for the coalition last time. And 185 00:10:22,590 --> 00:10:27,069 S8: then as she's she's really trying to walk that line. 186 00:10:27,110 --> 00:10:30,190 S8: You've got Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, who comes on afternoon briefing 187 00:10:30,190 --> 00:10:33,870 S8: and after a bit of questioning from the host, basically 188 00:10:34,150 --> 00:10:38,350 S8: alleges that labor is bringing in specific groups of migrants 189 00:10:38,350 --> 00:10:39,949 S8: so that it can win votes. 190 00:10:40,070 --> 00:10:41,550 S9: So who do you think they're trying to bring in 191 00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:43,870 S9: to to make them vote for labor? 192 00:10:44,190 --> 00:10:46,910 S4: Well, those that are more labor leaning that that are 193 00:10:46,910 --> 00:10:47,790 S4: likely to be. 194 00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:49,630 S9: But there are right wing or left wing people in 195 00:10:49,630 --> 00:10:52,670 S9: every community. Right. So who specifically are they? 196 00:10:52,910 --> 00:10:56,740 S8: Now Australia's got a non-discriminatory migration system that that doesn't 197 00:10:56,740 --> 00:11:02,220 S8: preference nationality, but price basically contradicts that. And then when 198 00:11:02,220 --> 00:11:05,059 S8: pressed on who is Labour trying to bring in singles 199 00:11:05,059 --> 00:11:06,339 S8: out the Indian community? 200 00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:09,460 S4: Well, as we've seen, you know, I mean, you yourself 201 00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:12,540 S4: mentioned that there is a concern with the Indian community 202 00:11:12,540 --> 00:11:14,699 S4: and only because there's been large numbers and we can 203 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:17,460 S4: see that reflected in the way that the community votes 204 00:11:17,460 --> 00:11:18,980 S4: for Labour at the same time. 205 00:11:19,340 --> 00:11:24,179 S8: This is probably worth acknowledging the overwhelming kind of target 206 00:11:24,179 --> 00:11:27,780 S8: in terms of anti-immigration sentiment on the weekend. And you 207 00:11:27,780 --> 00:11:33,220 S8: have several really upsetting, um, reports of racism that people 208 00:11:33,220 --> 00:11:36,060 S8: experienced on the streets of Sydney and Melbourne and so forth. 209 00:11:36,340 --> 00:11:39,900 S8: And then you have price now, a Liberal senator going 210 00:11:39,940 --> 00:11:45,460 S8: on national television and basically validating that concern that that 211 00:11:45,460 --> 00:11:48,340 S8: led to significant racism on our streets. 212 00:11:48,380 --> 00:11:50,860 S1: Well, and not just that saying that they're queue jumpers almost. 213 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:57,300 S8: Yeah, yeah. And and, um, the laborers vote stacking and. Yeah, no, 214 00:11:57,300 --> 00:12:01,500 S8: no kind of credible allegation, no evidence for it. There 215 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:04,780 S8: was I think it's safe to say that Lee wasn't 216 00:12:04,780 --> 00:12:06,860 S8: happy about that situation. 217 00:12:07,220 --> 00:12:13,260 S10: Our Australian Indian community are amazing. You contribute as Australian 218 00:12:13,260 --> 00:12:16,939 S10: Indians so much to our country. We know how hard 219 00:12:16,940 --> 00:12:20,860 S10: you work, your family values and the contribution you make 220 00:12:20,900 --> 00:12:24,860 S10: across this country. And as Opposition leader, I value that incredibly. 221 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:29,940 S8: Price had issued a statement about an hour afterwards. Um, 222 00:12:30,580 --> 00:12:37,140 S8: but again, her statement was Australia has a non-discriminatory migration program. 223 00:12:37,140 --> 00:12:40,260 S8: Suggestions otherwise are a mistake. Uh, there wasn't a kind 224 00:12:40,260 --> 00:12:44,100 S8: of a lot of ownership over that mistake. 225 00:12:44,140 --> 00:12:45,740 S1: And no apology to the Indian community. 226 00:12:45,780 --> 00:12:47,300 S8: And no apology. And then she came out the next 227 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:49,020 S8: day and said, I don't think I need to apologize. 228 00:12:49,020 --> 00:12:52,380 S8: So and the Indian community, it is it is a 229 00:12:52,570 --> 00:12:54,970 S8: significant voting block because it's a lot of people, and 230 00:12:54,970 --> 00:12:57,650 S8: labor and the coalition both caught that community. There is 231 00:12:57,650 --> 00:13:00,850 S8: a lot of active outreach among Indian Australians, and there 232 00:13:00,850 --> 00:13:03,850 S8: are a lot of them are very politically engaged. Um, 233 00:13:04,330 --> 00:13:07,170 S8: so I don't think this bodes well for the coalition 234 00:13:07,170 --> 00:13:10,290 S8: and Sussan Ley, as she vows to rebuild the coalition's 235 00:13:10,290 --> 00:13:16,570 S8: reputation in multicultural communities that ultimately contributed to its massive defeat. 236 00:13:16,610 --> 00:13:18,770 S1: Okay. But I just want to look at the overseas context, 237 00:13:18,770 --> 00:13:21,210 S1: because we do look overseas and we see that in 238 00:13:21,210 --> 00:13:23,810 S1: the UK, in the United States, in Germany, just to 239 00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:26,850 S1: name a few countries, there is some fraying of social 240 00:13:26,850 --> 00:13:30,690 S1: cohesion that is due to conflict over migration. I guess 241 00:13:30,690 --> 00:13:34,130 S1: you could say, and tensions. And you have xenophobic protests 242 00:13:34,130 --> 00:13:38,770 S1: against asylum seekers in the United Kingdom, for example. How, Paul, 243 00:13:38,809 --> 00:13:41,650 S1: are Australian politicians sort of very concerned or very alive 244 00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:45,089 S1: to the possibility that that kind of stuff could be 245 00:13:45,090 --> 00:13:45,970 S1: imported here? 246 00:13:46,210 --> 00:13:49,250 S3: Well, I think they definitely are. Um, and in a 247 00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:51,210 S3: number on a number of different fronts in politics. Now, 248 00:13:51,210 --> 00:13:54,970 S3: you see the internet kind of shrinking the world. Movements 249 00:13:54,970 --> 00:13:57,250 S3: that pop up in a in a like minded Western 250 00:13:57,250 --> 00:14:00,570 S3: country can very quickly be replicated by people in, in, 251 00:14:00,570 --> 00:14:04,090 S3: in another country because they're able to, um, pick up 252 00:14:04,090 --> 00:14:06,170 S3: the same tactics and talking points. And you see that 253 00:14:06,170 --> 00:14:09,010 S3: from the US. You're seeing that now. Um, some of 254 00:14:09,010 --> 00:14:12,370 S3: the UK protests that have occurred in small towns looked 255 00:14:12,370 --> 00:14:13,770 S3: a little bit like the ones we saw on the 256 00:14:13,770 --> 00:14:18,090 S3: weekend here. Um, there was a huge, uh, online discussion 257 00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:24,090 S3: in Australia about the so-called UK migrant gang rape crisis, which, um, 258 00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:26,690 S3: quickly turned into an issue last year because of its 259 00:14:26,690 --> 00:14:29,650 S3: prominence on Elon Musk's platform. And then I saw lots 260 00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:32,530 S3: of Australian far right debate just in in the weeks 261 00:14:32,530 --> 00:14:36,530 S3: after that. So you're seeing this, this kind of aping of, um, 262 00:14:36,690 --> 00:14:41,930 S3: of events overseas and I think a point, a just 263 00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:43,730 S3: a point of difference between us and some of these 264 00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:47,530 S3: other countries is what we've we've been able to do 265 00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:50,130 S3: in terms of securing our borders over the last 20 years. 266 00:14:50,330 --> 00:14:53,840 S3: John Howard used to talk about keeping control of borders 267 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,840 S3: and keeping public kind of acceptance of the migration program alive. 268 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,080 S3: And key to that is stopping the sense that the 269 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,040 S3: borders are porous and that small boats are flowing in. Um, 270 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,760 S3: without any control, which feeds a sense of anxiety in 271 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,000 S3: the community. He brought in the Pacific solution. Labor obviously 272 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,760 S3: overturned that had a huge political crisis over it under 273 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,560 S3: the Rudd Gillard government's um, reluctantly brought back, uh, a 274 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,880 S3: stronger border policy processing. Yeah. The Abbott government brought in 275 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,160 S3: boat turn back policies. And now that's an absolute fixture 276 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,240 S3: of labor politics, as demonstrated by Tony Burke last week 277 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,240 S3: signing another very expensive deal with Nauru. So we do 278 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,400 S3: have a fundamental difference with, for example, the UK, which 279 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,440 S3: has a very, very porous border at its at its 280 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,200 S3: English Channel crossing. But we are seeing on the, on 281 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,120 S3: the fringes of our society, not quite in the center 282 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,080 S3: as it is in other parts of the West, but 283 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,880 S3: on the fringes, a growing sense that there are too 284 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,360 S3: many migrants in our community. That certain pockets of, particularly 285 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,960 S3: Melbourne and Sydney are starting to not look like Australia, 286 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,160 S3: that that white Australians particularly are lower middle class and 287 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,840 S3: working class. White Australians don't have prosperous lives because heavy 288 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,480 S3: industries have closed, because the fossil fuel industry is, is, 289 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,640 S3: is dying, and that the globalisation that we've seen in 290 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,960 S3: the last 30 years has not benefited, uh, some groups 291 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,080 S3: of Australians. And that, you know, we've used high levels 292 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,560 S3: of migration to grow our economy instead of trying to 293 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,400 S3: find solutions to actually grow productivity. 294 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,960 S1: Yeah. So that's what I find interesting because as you, 295 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,160 S1: you've just taken us through a potted history of the 296 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,240 S1: sort of asylum seeker debate, which was a huge issue, 297 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,080 S1: like when I was in Canberra, it was a huge 298 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,160 S1: political issue, and it's basically settled and it's basically bipartisan 299 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,200 S1: now that we have a very strong border protection policy. 300 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,800 S1: But now the debate has actually shifted to completely legal migration, 301 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,510 S1: migration that is sanctioned and indeed encouraged by our government 302 00:16:51,510 --> 00:16:54,470 S1: to prop up economic growth and to prop up the population. 303 00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:56,470 S1: But I suppose you see a whole cohort of voters 304 00:16:56,470 --> 00:16:58,430 S1: who feel like they've never signed on to that, who 305 00:16:58,430 --> 00:17:01,670 S1: feel like they've never specifically agreed to having these levels 306 00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:04,710 S1: of what, you know, the right wingers call mass immigration, 307 00:17:04,750 --> 00:17:06,790 S1: which is not a term that I would use. But 308 00:17:06,950 --> 00:17:09,110 S1: I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not 309 00:17:09,109 --> 00:17:11,590 S1: both sides of politics are now labor, because they're in government, 310 00:17:11,630 --> 00:17:15,350 S1: have actually done enough to proactively convince or show Australians 311 00:17:15,390 --> 00:17:19,350 S1: the benefits of migration to our country in terms of services, 312 00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:22,550 S1: in terms of population growth, in terms of economic growth, and, 313 00:17:22,590 --> 00:17:25,590 S1: you know, specialized workers that we desperately need. 314 00:17:25,670 --> 00:17:27,429 S8: I kind of I don't know. And this is a 315 00:17:27,430 --> 00:17:29,830 S8: conversation I think I've been having a lot this week, 316 00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:33,149 S8: and I think just normal people would be having because 317 00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:35,790 S8: it it does touch everyone. I feel like a lot 318 00:17:35,790 --> 00:17:38,270 S8: of Australians do get that. I think most Australians do 319 00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:41,270 S8: get that. I think most people have, but I think 320 00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:41,710 S8: I think it's. 321 00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:42,310 S3: In the center of. 322 00:17:42,510 --> 00:17:43,230 S8: Interesting. 323 00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:45,630 S1: Is it being led by politicians, though, and particularly to 324 00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:48,189 S1: the cohort of Australians who feel that there may be 325 00:17:48,190 --> 00:17:51,990 S1: getting ripped off by, by, Um, you know, the immigration 326 00:17:51,990 --> 00:17:52,909 S1: system as it is. 327 00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:57,270 S8: I wonder when we're talking about that cohort of people. 328 00:17:57,510 --> 00:18:02,390 S8: And I think, like like, you know, recent surveys will 329 00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:04,149 S8: tell us, you know, there is a kind of higher 330 00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:08,390 S8: level than usual of concern about immigration as a trend 331 00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:11,550 S8: in Australia. Whether that whole group of people are the 332 00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:14,270 S8: kind of people who are so motivated by that concern 333 00:18:14,270 --> 00:18:17,310 S8: that they'd come out and march. I don't know. I 334 00:18:17,310 --> 00:18:20,710 S8: think I kind of just like putting it in perspective 335 00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:25,670 S8: a bit. I feel like this cohort is a a 336 00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:28,150 S8: group of people. I think other people have kind of 337 00:18:28,790 --> 00:18:33,190 S8: less passionate feelings, perhaps, about the rate of immigration, even 338 00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:36,550 S8: if there is a level of underlying discomfort or whatnot. 339 00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:39,869 S8: But I feel like that cohort, probably the ones that, 340 00:18:39,910 --> 00:18:42,390 S8: you know, turned up to the rally, I don't feel 341 00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:45,590 S8: like they're kind of views on this thing are really 342 00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:50,140 S8: being guided by mainstream politicians. Like it's coming more from, like, 343 00:18:50,180 --> 00:18:50,939 S8: the right wing. 344 00:18:50,980 --> 00:18:52,740 S1: Yeah, sure. And I think a lot of it is 345 00:18:52,780 --> 00:18:54,500 S1: as as we say, a lot of it's influenced by 346 00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:57,100 S1: internet culture. But I guess I'm asking about the, the, 347 00:18:57,420 --> 00:19:01,260 S1: the political, the onus on politicians to make proactively a 348 00:19:01,260 --> 00:19:04,740 S1: case for immigration and its benefits. Have they failed? 349 00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:08,700 S8: I feel like they like. And hearing them talk about 350 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:11,060 S8: this week. Right? Everyone will be like, everyone's a migrant, 351 00:19:11,060 --> 00:19:14,900 S8: migrants have made great contributions to our country, etc., etc. um, 352 00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:19,419 S8: whether it's that that line's not convincing or it feels 353 00:19:19,460 --> 00:19:23,780 S8: a bit basic at this point. Um, whether it's a 354 00:19:23,780 --> 00:19:26,980 S8: matter of being more up front when it comes to 355 00:19:27,140 --> 00:19:30,860 S8: policy platforms and elections around your forecasts, around immigration, so 356 00:19:30,859 --> 00:19:33,780 S8: people feel like they're on the same page. 357 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:35,340 S1: I feel like they're being informed. 358 00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:37,820 S3: And the government hit its migration numbers for months and 359 00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:39,740 S3: just released it quietly this week. 360 00:19:39,859 --> 00:19:43,260 S8: Yeah, I wouldn't I don't think that's quite like that's again, 361 00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:44,380 S8: that goes back to the permanence. 362 00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:46,300 S1: I mean, and the reality is that most ordinary voters 363 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,580 S1: aren't going to be looking at the migration projections in 364 00:19:48,580 --> 00:19:51,580 S1: the budget papers, but I just wonder if there's a 365 00:19:51,580 --> 00:19:53,899 S1: little bit of, um, a little bit of reticence on 366 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:56,179 S1: the part of politicians from both sides of politics to 367 00:19:56,220 --> 00:20:01,899 S1: admit how much immigration drives economic growth and how much 368 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:05,740 S1: we need and desperately rely upon migrants, in particular in 369 00:20:05,740 --> 00:20:10,659 S1: sectors like the aged care industry and in healthcare generally, 370 00:20:10,660 --> 00:20:13,220 S1: and even in industries like financial services, where I think 371 00:20:13,220 --> 00:20:16,300 S1: it's about a quarter of workers are from overseas. So yeah, 372 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:18,100 S1: I just wonder if they're a little bit reluctant to 373 00:20:18,140 --> 00:20:21,020 S1: to admit that publicly. I Paul, I want to ask 374 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:25,139 S1: about the neo Nazis that we saw in Melbourne this week, 375 00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:28,140 S1: which strangely seems to be, I don't know, a comfortable 376 00:20:28,180 --> 00:20:29,219 S1: home for neo Nazis. 377 00:20:29,220 --> 00:20:30,940 S3: The point you just made. Sorry. Yeah. Can I just 378 00:20:31,380 --> 00:20:35,420 S3: make one more point on the reluctance? Um, just before 379 00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:37,700 S3: we move on, because there was a good example this week. So, yeah, 380 00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:39,899 S3: I do think there is reluctance because if you're a 381 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:43,020 S3: treasurer and you've just gone through a period of, uh, 382 00:20:43,540 --> 00:20:47,780 S3: really damp economic growth, only kept out of recession by 383 00:20:47,820 --> 00:20:52,250 S3: by high migration levels, you're effectively admitting that without bringing 384 00:20:52,250 --> 00:20:54,570 S3: in a lot of migrants, you have run the economy 385 00:20:54,570 --> 00:20:56,890 S3: into the ground. So we've had we've had we've had 386 00:20:56,890 --> 00:21:00,209 S3: uncreative policy making and a lack of bravery in policy making, 387 00:21:00,210 --> 00:21:03,609 S3: which has created a productivity problem. That's been where, where, 388 00:21:03,609 --> 00:21:05,770 S3: where a gap has been plugged by migration. And just 389 00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:09,010 S3: this week we saw how crucial. And you mentioned aged care, jacki, 390 00:21:09,650 --> 00:21:13,850 S3: how crucial migrant workers are because the government delayed home 391 00:21:13,850 --> 00:21:16,010 S3: care packages and aged care created a bit of a 392 00:21:16,050 --> 00:21:18,730 S3: mini crisis in Canberra this week, forcing the government to 393 00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:21,929 S3: backtrack and roll out aged care home packages more quickly, 394 00:21:21,930 --> 00:21:24,010 S3: and a key reason the government's cited for not being 395 00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:26,410 S3: able to care for people in their homes is that 396 00:21:26,410 --> 00:21:29,050 S3: we don't have enough workers in Australia willing to do 397 00:21:29,050 --> 00:21:31,850 S3: these jobs. We need more migration to plug these skills 398 00:21:31,850 --> 00:21:35,010 S3: gaps for. So for all the concern about housing, legitimate 399 00:21:35,010 --> 00:21:37,570 S3: or not, there's a lot of concern on the other 400 00:21:37,570 --> 00:21:40,170 S3: side around skill shortages, which we saw in Covid. And 401 00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:42,090 S3: we still see now in a bunch of key industries. 402 00:21:42,130 --> 00:21:45,330 S1: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, Peter Dutton in particular, 403 00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:48,810 S1: when they had their sort of big targets to slash 404 00:21:48,850 --> 00:21:52,170 S1: migration that they took to the election never really addressed 405 00:21:52,170 --> 00:21:55,689 S1: the difficulty of the fact that the economy basically wasn't 406 00:21:55,690 --> 00:21:58,649 S1: going to run, you know, on the levels of migration, 407 00:21:58,650 --> 00:21:59,210 S1: that he. 408 00:21:59,210 --> 00:22:02,250 S3: Was totally incoherent policy from Dutton with no solution on 409 00:22:02,250 --> 00:22:02,890 S3: how that would work. 410 00:22:02,930 --> 00:22:06,370 S1: Economically. Yeah. So let's talk about the neo-Nazis. As reluctant 411 00:22:06,369 --> 00:22:08,609 S1: as I am to give them any airtime. We did 412 00:22:08,609 --> 00:22:12,170 S1: see them surface in Melbourne. We saw a neo-Nazi leader 413 00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:15,210 S1: bail up Jacinta Allan, the Victorian premier, at a press 414 00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:17,770 S1: conference in a public place, which was a little bit 415 00:22:17,770 --> 00:22:20,689 S1: of a security risk. How can politicians or how are 416 00:22:20,690 --> 00:22:22,889 S1: the politicians at a federal level, responding to this sort 417 00:22:22,890 --> 00:22:27,410 S1: of creep of extremism into the mainstream debate that you see. 418 00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:30,850 S8: For example, the Prime Minister grappling with this in his 419 00:22:30,890 --> 00:22:35,689 S8: tone and remarks this week, um, this very careful, um, 420 00:22:36,170 --> 00:22:39,610 S8: you know, there are good people not we don't want 421 00:22:39,609 --> 00:22:42,169 S8: to demonize everyone. You know, he was pressed on this 422 00:22:42,210 --> 00:22:44,530 S8: in the caucus as well, because not all labor MPs 423 00:22:44,530 --> 00:22:48,800 S8: were were satisfied, um, with that response, Ed Husic came 424 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,680 S8: out a few days later and said, I think something like, 425 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,520 S8: show me a good fascist. Um, the Prime Minister's justification 426 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,320 S8: was that it goes, I guess, back to the kind of, um, 427 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:08,480 S8: internet radicalisation theme, um, which is by demonising these people publicly, 428 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,080 S8: you could push them into a rabbit hole. And I 429 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,360 S8: think the other big thing that counter-extremism experts will say 430 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,160 S8: when it comes to, um, right wing radical groups is 431 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,719 S8: and we saw this around Welcome to Country around Anzac 432 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,880 S8: Day as well. They are trying to hijack mainstream debate. 433 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:29,480 S8: They are making what sounds like rational argument to kind 434 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,879 S8: of bring people more into a racist and extremist ideology. Um, 435 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,200 S8: I think you've seen the Prime Minister be very cautious 436 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:43,520 S8: about playing into their hand there. Um, I think that 437 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,639 S8: is what is also probably a bit interesting about the 438 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:52,639 S8: way that the coalition has responded. Like the coalition, I 439 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,000 S8: think where the where the labor government has tried to 440 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,080 S8: move on from a legitimate discussion of immigration this week, 441 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,719 S8: it's acknowledged it, but it hasn't wanted to engage with it. 442 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,520 S8: You've seen the coalition engage with it more. Um, you 443 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,200 S8: had one nation try and launch a Senate inquiry into immigration. 444 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,360 S8: The coalition then kind of jumped on that and amended 445 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,800 S8: it slightly, also trying to call for this debate into immigration. 446 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,440 S8: Where that all started was with these weekend rallies, which 447 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,800 S8: we saw were hijacked by neo-Nazi groups. Um, so I 448 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,320 S8: think there is there are different levels of kind of 449 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:33,560 S8: caution around the parliament in terms of how political debate 450 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,800 S8: should or should not engage with that kind of extremist 451 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,080 S8: element to some of these conversations taking place. 452 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,560 S1: I mean, it is actually really difficult line to walk. 453 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,990 S3: And I think media is grappling with this in the 454 00:24:46,990 --> 00:24:49,230 S3: same way, like they are. They're so in-your-face and so 455 00:24:49,230 --> 00:24:52,670 S3: disgusting that it demands attention, but. 456 00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:53,669 S1: They can't not report. 457 00:24:53,670 --> 00:24:54,629 S3: It. The attention. 458 00:24:54,670 --> 00:24:57,030 S1: It's a phenomenon that exists. But but yeah, I don't 459 00:24:57,030 --> 00:24:59,790 S1: want to talk about neo-Nazis on this podcast ever. If 460 00:24:59,790 --> 00:25:00,910 S1: I had my druthers, I know. 461 00:25:01,230 --> 00:25:03,790 S3: And they have a there's a document from 2021 which 462 00:25:03,790 --> 00:25:07,310 S3: Cam Wilson from Crikey reported. It's from the National Socialist Network. 463 00:25:07,310 --> 00:25:10,070 S3: So the group that Thomas Sowell runs and it's a 464 00:25:10,109 --> 00:25:13,830 S3: handbook on, quote, media baiting, and it quotes media baiting 465 00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:15,669 S3: is a huge portion of our recruitment drive. There are 466 00:25:15,670 --> 00:25:18,750 S3: currently hundreds of minor nationalist groups in Australia, but none 467 00:25:18,750 --> 00:25:21,750 S3: of them ever amount to anything without media attention, even 468 00:25:21,790 --> 00:25:23,949 S3: if the articles are mostly negative. The readers of the 469 00:25:23,950 --> 00:25:26,390 S3: article are not the target audience. We're trying to win 470 00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:28,870 S3: over youth who are already sympathetic to the cause and 471 00:25:28,869 --> 00:25:33,190 S3: are seeking an outlet for their views. So inadvertently, we 472 00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:34,990 S3: are driving their recruitment. 473 00:25:35,030 --> 00:25:37,149 S1: We're being used as tools. Yeah. Alright. 474 00:25:37,390 --> 00:25:38,310 S3: Right now again. 475 00:25:39,150 --> 00:25:42,190 S1: Let's stop talking about neo-Nazis then. Guys, this has been 476 00:25:42,190 --> 00:25:44,430 S1: such an interesting discussion. I wish we could talk for longer, 477 00:25:44,430 --> 00:25:47,350 S1: but we're out of time and I'm sure we'll revisit it. 478 00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:49,389 S1: Task particular thanks to you. We haven't seen you in 479 00:25:49,390 --> 00:25:50,310 S1: a while. It's a pleasure. 480 00:25:50,350 --> 00:25:51,630 S2: Pleasure to be here. Thanks. 481 00:25:51,630 --> 00:25:52,390 S1: Thanks, guys. 482 00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:53,109 S3: Thank you. Bye. 483 00:26:02,630 --> 00:26:06,070 S1: Today's episode was produced by Josh towers with technical assistance 484 00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:09,830 S1: from Kai Wong and Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is 485 00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:12,869 S1: Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. 486 00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:15,550 S1: To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop, 487 00:26:15,550 --> 00:26:19,230 S1: follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you 488 00:26:19,230 --> 00:26:22,590 S1: listen to your podcasts. To stay up to date with 489 00:26:22,590 --> 00:26:25,550 S1: all the politics, news and exclusives, visit The Age or 490 00:26:25,550 --> 00:26:29,310 S1: The Sydney Morning Herald websites and to support our journalism, 491 00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:35,750 S1: subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. I'm 492 00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:37,629 S1: Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.