1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,960 S1: First, though today. Answer this question for me. Should tobacconists 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,920 S1: be shut down in a bid to limit the damage 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:13,200 S1: of the flourishing tobacco black market? One. Three. Six. Nine three. 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,360 S1: It's a policy being discussed, being canvassed, and it's one 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,800 S1: that would see cigarettes only sold in supermarkets. Now, of course, 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,720 S1: the consequence of this is that it would likely push 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,840 S1: illegal cigarette sales online. But given the turf war at 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,400 S1: the moment and what seem to be weekly fire bombings 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:39,040 S1: of tobacconists, is it worth considering? 133693, or is it 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,440 S1: just time for the government to simply say, you know what? 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,239 S1: We'll cut the tobacco excise, bring pricing more in line 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,080 S1: with the illicit products which we know are so popular 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,159 S1: and so readily available, and therefore people will be more 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:57,680 S1: inclined to go for the legal version. 133693. I'm joined 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,680 S1: on the line now by Julian Hill, his assistant minister 16 00:01:00,810 --> 00:01:04,450 S1: for citizenship, Customs and Multicultural Affairs. Mr. Hill, good morning 17 00:01:04,450 --> 00:01:05,650 S1: to you. I appreciate your time. 18 00:01:06,090 --> 00:01:07,530 S2: Thanks, Shane. It's good to be with you. 19 00:01:07,569 --> 00:01:10,850 S1: This idea is coming from public health advocates. Do you 20 00:01:10,850 --> 00:01:13,370 S1: think it has merit to shut down tobacconists? 21 00:01:13,890 --> 00:01:16,450 S2: Oh, look, I'll answer that in two ways. It's clearly 22 00:01:16,450 --> 00:01:21,170 S2: a ridiculous situation which the country now faces. Victoria is 23 00:01:21,170 --> 00:01:24,289 S2: not immune and Victorians are well used to sadly, seeing 24 00:01:24,290 --> 00:01:27,929 S2: these ridiculous shops buggering up every suburban town and you'd 25 00:01:27,930 --> 00:01:30,050 S2: have to have your eyes glued shut not to see them. 26 00:01:30,050 --> 00:01:34,850 S2: And the country doesn't need 40,000 retailers selling tobacco to 27 00:01:34,890 --> 00:01:39,410 S2: about 8% of the population. And so two points. We 28 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:42,370 S2: need the states and territories to shut them down. If 29 00:01:42,370 --> 00:01:44,850 S2: a shop is selling an illegal product, it needs to 30 00:01:44,850 --> 00:01:48,130 S2: be shut down. And I welcome the Victorian government's announcement 31 00:01:48,130 --> 00:01:51,170 S2: on Sunday that they're bringing Victorian laws into line with 32 00:01:51,170 --> 00:01:53,810 S2: South Australia and Queensland. Probably those two states have been 33 00:01:53,810 --> 00:01:56,330 S2: leading the way, and Victoria is very focused on it 34 00:01:56,330 --> 00:01:59,850 S2: now to allow for long term closure orders, not just 35 00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:02,340 S2: to slap on the wrist or a 72 hour long weekend, 36 00:02:02,340 --> 00:02:04,820 S2: or take the product and they'll restock it, but shut 37 00:02:04,820 --> 00:02:08,300 S2: the shops down and punish the landlords. The Commonwealth's providing 38 00:02:08,340 --> 00:02:10,780 S2: about $84 million of support over the next couple of years. 39 00:02:10,780 --> 00:02:12,940 S2: But the point you make. Then the second part of 40 00:02:12,940 --> 00:02:16,300 S2: the response in the medium to the longer term, the 41 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:19,420 S2: health lobby's raising questions about what should be the future 42 00:02:19,419 --> 00:02:21,940 S2: shape of the retail market. Now, it's not government policy, 43 00:02:21,940 --> 00:02:24,380 S2: and it's something that the states and territories have to 44 00:02:24,380 --> 00:02:26,980 S2: get on board with because they run the licensing schemes 45 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:30,140 S2: from the government's perspective. The Commonwealth's perspective, if you're a 46 00:02:30,139 --> 00:02:35,220 S2: legal licensed retailer selling legal product, that's fine. But it's 47 00:02:35,220 --> 00:02:37,940 S2: an interesting debate and your listeners might want to hear 48 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:40,579 S2: from the health lobby, hear different perspectives from the retailers. 49 00:02:40,580 --> 00:02:42,460 S2: But we've got to shot these shops down. 50 00:02:42,820 --> 00:02:46,100 S1: The tobacconists are one thing. The illegal tobacco is something 51 00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:50,260 S1: different as well because you can shift that easily online. 52 00:02:50,260 --> 00:02:54,020 S1: We know how readily things are available online now. Is 53 00:02:54,020 --> 00:02:56,660 S1: it a matter that, yes, you might get rid of 54 00:02:56,660 --> 00:03:00,180 S1: these turf war attacks that we see all too readily 55 00:03:00,180 --> 00:03:02,940 S1: here in Victoria and hear about in the news. But 56 00:03:02,940 --> 00:03:05,780 S1: the fact of the matter is, the illicit cigarettes go online. 57 00:03:05,780 --> 00:03:09,540 S1: They're still being purchased, the government still doesn't get its excise, 58 00:03:09,540 --> 00:03:11,780 S1: and that illegal product is still available. 59 00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:15,300 S2: It's an incredibly complicated issue. Let me try and summarise 60 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:18,820 S2: it simply. No country is immune from illegal tobacco. We've 61 00:03:18,820 --> 00:03:20,900 S2: seen over the last. It's a perfect storm of factors 62 00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:23,580 S2: over the last decade or so. It's not a partisan issue. 63 00:03:23,620 --> 00:03:25,340 S2: We inherited a mess, but I'm not having a go 64 00:03:25,340 --> 00:03:27,940 S2: at the former government. I was in Singapore last year. 65 00:03:27,940 --> 00:03:31,060 S2: I'll give you listeners this example, doing customs meetings there, 66 00:03:31,060 --> 00:03:33,260 S2: a critical partner, obviously, because a lot of container stuff 67 00:03:33,260 --> 00:03:37,300 S2: comes through to Australia and they have an illegal tobacco problem. 68 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:41,300 S2: It's not retail shopfronts, it's motorcycle couriers and, you know, 69 00:03:41,340 --> 00:03:43,740 S2: messaging apps and so on. So this is an issue 70 00:03:44,060 --> 00:03:48,740 S2: of a massive surplus of cheap global production combined with 71 00:03:48,740 --> 00:03:52,820 S2: serious and organised crime syndicates that have weaponised it. You 72 00:03:52,860 --> 00:03:55,900 S2: point earlier about excise, I'll just make this point. The 73 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:59,140 S2: point of tobacco excise was never to make lots of money. 74 00:03:59,180 --> 00:04:01,870 S2: We actually wanted to see it full as smoking rates fell, 75 00:04:01,870 --> 00:04:03,950 S2: and Australians can be proud of the fact that we 76 00:04:03,950 --> 00:04:07,790 S2: have now one of the lowest rates of adult smoking 77 00:04:07,790 --> 00:04:10,990 S2: in the world. We cannot give away that hard gotten 78 00:04:10,990 --> 00:04:13,790 S2: gain and fill the the hospital wards with people dying. 79 00:04:13,830 --> 00:04:18,310 S2: There's already 70 people every day, 70 Australians every day 80 00:04:18,589 --> 00:04:21,550 S2: die of tobacco related illness, and we've freed up billions 81 00:04:21,550 --> 00:04:24,630 S2: from the hospital system to reinvest in the health system 82 00:04:24,630 --> 00:04:27,950 S2: more broadly. So there's been enormous benefits. There's no level 83 00:04:27,950 --> 00:04:31,550 S2: of excise reduction, no reasonable level of excise reduction that 84 00:04:31,550 --> 00:04:34,710 S2: would make any material difference to the product, because these 85 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:37,670 S2: crime syndicates can make it so cheaply. So you're right 86 00:04:37,670 --> 00:04:41,150 S2: about online sales. We're taking tougher action there. And yesterday 87 00:04:41,150 --> 00:04:44,830 S2: I announced much tougher Commonwealth penalties that will be coming 88 00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:46,270 S2: in to combat this. 89 00:04:46,670 --> 00:04:49,390 S1: So with the excise, I mean it's an interesting point 90 00:04:49,390 --> 00:04:51,350 S1: to say that yes, the excise was brought in to 91 00:04:51,390 --> 00:04:54,750 S1: to stop people from smoking in the first instance such 92 00:04:54,750 --> 00:04:57,470 S1: that it was out of reach for many people. But 93 00:04:57,470 --> 00:04:59,230 S1: the fact is now is that they can just go 94 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,440 S1: get the illicit variety so readily. So easily that that 95 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,360 S1: exercise is almost redundant. 96 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,120 S2: Well, well, you're right, I think we're saying the same 97 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,080 S2: thing from different frames. And you know, most, most Victorians, 98 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:12,320 S2: most Australians see it. 99 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,800 S1: So then why not lower that. So therefore, why not 100 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,679 S1: lower that exercise so that those people that are still 101 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,400 S1: addicted to this product, even though it's not good for them, 102 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,520 S1: we know that, but even though that they are addicted 103 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,120 S1: to it, lower that exercise and therefore allow them to 104 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,680 S1: take the legal version instead of buying the illicit product. 105 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,600 S2: Uh, two reasons. One, the most, the difficult reality here 106 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,360 S2: is there is no reasonable level of excise reduction that 107 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,320 S2: would make any difference to the problem. I mean, I 108 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,160 S2: put it back, I've heard some state premiers and governments 109 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,320 S2: and I get state governments want to avoid political responsibility 110 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,560 S2: and just blame the Commonwealth. We've got record levels of 111 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,640 S2: seizures at the border, but no country can combat this 112 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,520 S2: scale of cheap product coming through their borders. There's no 113 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,480 S2: country that's managed to wipe out illegal tobacco. So, you know, 114 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,570 S2: I say to anyone putting that view, what's the magic number? Like, 115 00:06:01,610 --> 00:06:04,410 S2: what's the magic level of excise reduction that would make 116 00:06:04,410 --> 00:06:07,610 S2: any difference when you've got a retail distribution network and 117 00:06:07,610 --> 00:06:12,890 S2: you nailed it before. It's the free flowing, utterly ridiculous 118 00:06:12,890 --> 00:06:17,890 S2: levels of availability, with multiple illegal tobacconists popping up right 119 00:06:17,890 --> 00:06:21,570 S2: over the country that allows people to go and get 120 00:06:21,570 --> 00:06:24,130 S2: that and smoke more. So I'm not going to lie 121 00:06:24,130 --> 00:06:26,690 S2: to people. Of course, no country can wipe out every 122 00:06:26,730 --> 00:06:30,490 S2: illegal sale, right? We've got illegal products in every human society, 123 00:06:30,770 --> 00:06:34,609 S2: but the scale of the problem now requires a far 124 00:06:35,010 --> 00:06:37,770 S2: more urgent effort from states and territories to just shut 125 00:06:37,770 --> 00:06:40,730 S2: the retail shops down. Because, frankly, you know, a lot 126 00:06:40,770 --> 00:06:43,050 S2: of grandmas and grandpas are not going to want the 127 00:06:43,050 --> 00:06:45,570 S2: drug dealer model where people pop around to their house, 128 00:06:45,570 --> 00:06:47,570 S2: they'll smoke less, and that's good for them and it's 129 00:06:47,570 --> 00:06:48,570 S2: good for the health system. 130 00:06:48,610 --> 00:06:51,370 S1: I just wonder if you make it. I agree with you. 131 00:06:51,410 --> 00:06:54,250 S1: Close down tobacconists. You therefore make it harder to get 132 00:06:54,250 --> 00:06:56,450 S1: that illicit product is still available, but you make it 133 00:06:56,450 --> 00:06:58,570 S1: harder to get that illicit product. But if you cut 134 00:06:58,570 --> 00:07:00,940 S1: that excise and you're saying that the excise doesn't really 135 00:07:00,940 --> 00:07:03,860 S1: make a difference in terms of of health modelling anymore, 136 00:07:03,860 --> 00:07:06,859 S1: because those people we wanted to push away from, from cigarettes, 137 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:09,420 S1: we've done that already. You're saying that it's not about 138 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:11,780 S1: profit for the government. Okay. Put that to the side. 139 00:07:11,780 --> 00:07:13,860 S1: Why not drop the excise and people go, alright, if 140 00:07:13,860 --> 00:07:17,140 S1: I'm paying a few bucks extra for legal cigarettes, I 141 00:07:17,140 --> 00:07:19,900 S1: don't mind that buying them from my local supermarket because 142 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:21,700 S1: of the hassle of getting the illicit version. 143 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:25,540 S2: Well, we know that the most effective lever to keep 144 00:07:25,540 --> 00:07:29,060 S2: smoking rates low and for people individually to smoke less. 145 00:07:29,060 --> 00:07:32,100 S2: One of the problems here is people who are lifelong 146 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:35,180 S2: smokers and older generation. And you know, I get that 147 00:07:35,180 --> 00:07:37,380 S2: I've got friends and family. I get that people are 148 00:07:37,380 --> 00:07:39,900 S2: not given up if they're in their 50s, 60s, 70s 149 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:42,580 S2: so often, but they do smoke a lot less. And 150 00:07:42,580 --> 00:07:45,580 S2: so we're seeing the amount that people are smoking go up. 151 00:07:45,580 --> 00:07:47,780 S2: And that's terrible for the health system and for the health. 152 00:07:47,780 --> 00:07:50,300 S2: All your listeners who don't smoke literally pay billions of 153 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:52,300 S2: dollars in tax to treat this. It is a tax 154 00:07:52,300 --> 00:07:56,740 S2: designed to curb consumption. The other point is we do 155 00:07:56,740 --> 00:08:01,950 S2: not want another generation of young Australians to become addicted 156 00:08:01,950 --> 00:08:04,150 S2: to the scourge of nicotine and take up tobacco. And 157 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:06,870 S2: I'll give you one encouraging stat it's hopeful. Hope's not 158 00:08:06,910 --> 00:08:13,230 S2: a strategy, but 96% of young Australians have never smoked tobacco. 159 00:08:13,270 --> 00:08:15,750 S2: That's the highest number on record. We can't give that 160 00:08:15,750 --> 00:08:20,430 S2: away by false ideas and being seduced into excise. 161 00:08:21,030 --> 00:08:23,070 S1: But before I let you go, Julie, just just on 162 00:08:23,070 --> 00:08:27,110 S1: the health factor around smoking does more. Do we need 163 00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:29,510 S1: to go back to those bare, basic quick campaigns, not 164 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:33,470 S1: on TV or traditional media, but in social media, using 165 00:08:33,470 --> 00:08:38,189 S1: those channels to reveal the dangers of smoking and using 166 00:08:38,190 --> 00:08:40,870 S1: vapes and get back to the issue at hand that, 167 00:08:40,910 --> 00:08:43,510 S1: you know, this isn't something, regardless of cost, that you 168 00:08:43,510 --> 00:08:45,150 S1: should be doing for your body, full stop. 169 00:08:46,030 --> 00:08:48,470 S2: Yeah, I'll finish on those two points. So yes, and 170 00:08:48,470 --> 00:08:51,189 S2: we are the Australian government's give Up for good campaign 171 00:08:51,230 --> 00:08:54,430 S2: has seen promising results. There's been a drop over the 172 00:08:54,429 --> 00:08:57,150 S2: last two years in the percentage of young Australians using 173 00:08:57,150 --> 00:09:00,230 S2: vapes who've ever vaped. And as I said, a record 174 00:09:00,230 --> 00:09:03,870 S2: high in 96% of young Australians who'd never smoked. That's 175 00:09:03,870 --> 00:09:06,350 S2: a good thing. But right now the focus is on 176 00:09:06,350 --> 00:09:08,910 S2: serious and organised crime, and I'll finish with this point. 177 00:09:09,190 --> 00:09:13,590 S2: The federal police have educated me and other officials. The 178 00:09:13,590 --> 00:09:17,309 S2: state police as well. But prosecutions are slow and expensive. 179 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:19,550 S2: They're important. You go after the serious crims, not the 180 00:09:19,550 --> 00:09:23,470 S2: shop front workers. But the real way to hurt these 181 00:09:23,470 --> 00:09:27,990 S2: organised crime cartels is to take their goodies, take their cash, 182 00:09:28,030 --> 00:09:31,030 S2: take their houses, take their boats, take their toys. And 183 00:09:31,030 --> 00:09:33,150 S2: that some of the laws that will be strengthening. I 184 00:09:33,150 --> 00:09:36,750 S2: announced yesterday at the Commonwealth level so that we can 185 00:09:36,750 --> 00:09:39,510 S2: go after the proceeds of organised crime and bust these 186 00:09:39,510 --> 00:09:42,310 S2: crime syndicates. They cannot be allowed to win and dictate 187 00:09:42,309 --> 00:09:43,710 S2: our nation's health policy. 188 00:09:44,110 --> 00:09:47,510 S1: Julian Hill, assistant minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs I 189 00:09:47,510 --> 00:09:48,630 S1: appreciate your time this morning. 190 00:09:48,990 --> 00:09:49,670 S2: Thanks, mate. 191 00:09:49,710 --> 00:09:54,230 S1: 133693, I'm keen to hear from you. Do we ban tobacconists? 192 00:09:54,270 --> 00:09:57,790 S1: Close down all the tobacconists legal cigarettes. They're for sale 193 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,679 S1: in supermarkets. Does that make a difference? At the end 194 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,160 S1: of the day, people are just going to order these 195 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,480 S1: illicit cigarettes online. I just got a text message from 196 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,560 S1: someone I know quite well, saying that their sister on 197 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,640 S1: a pension smoked more than ever, just sent their carers who, 198 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,520 S1: by the way, funded by the NDIS to get illegal 199 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,840 S1: cartons of cigarettes. There are people that are addicted to it. 200 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,480 S1: And yet it amazes me that in 2026 people are 201 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,880 S1: still smoking, but people are addicted to it. It's still 202 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,760 S1: a legal product. You don't want people smoking, but if 203 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,120 S1: the excise is not making a difference anymore in terms 204 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,160 S1: of people taking up smoking, then reduce it such that 205 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,080 S1: people go, alright, I'll just get the legal version. It's 206 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,840 S1: easier than finding the illicit product. You can close down 207 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,920 S1: the tobacconists. That might stop the firebombings and the turf 208 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,160 S1: war at street level. It's just going to push it 209 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,840 S1: underground more. Something needs to be done. I'm not critical 210 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,400 S1: of Julian Hill or the the policy being canvassed. It's 211 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,920 S1: not a bad idea, but is it just shifting the 212 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:58,480 S1: problem from the left hand to the right hand?