1 00:00:11,420 --> 00:00:17,329 UU: Boom boom boom boom. Boom boom. 2 00:00:18,620 --> 00:00:23,150 S1: Australia has a mega reputation as a sporting nation. Globally, 3 00:00:23,150 --> 00:00:26,030 S1: we punch above our weight on the field, in the 4 00:00:26,030 --> 00:00:29,990 S1: pool and on court. How does that global success play 5 00:00:29,990 --> 00:00:34,010 S1: out locally? Over the past two years, major sporting events 6 00:00:34,010 --> 00:00:39,020 S1: were disrupted by Covid 19. Crowd numbers were decimated, jeopardizing 7 00:00:39,020 --> 00:00:43,910 S1: sponsorships and broadcast deals. The wide scale emergence of multiple 8 00:00:43,909 --> 00:00:48,170 S1: streaming services has also created a highly competitive environment for 9 00:00:48,170 --> 00:00:53,900 S1: broadcast rights and competition to capture audience's attention. Sports, like 10 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:57,710 S1: every other business in Australia, has had to continuously adapt 11 00:00:57,710 --> 00:01:01,920 S1: and pivot to survive and thrive. Welcome to the Business 12 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,880 S1: of Sport. The latest Business of Leadership podcast, brought to 13 00:01:05,910 --> 00:01:09,000 S1: you by the Australian Graduate School of Management at the 14 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:18,540 S1: UNSW Business School. In this episode, we investigate the opportunities 15 00:01:18,540 --> 00:01:21,900 S1: and challenges for sports to succeed on and off the 16 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:25,620 S1: field in Australia, where professional teams face a battle for 17 00:01:25,620 --> 00:01:30,449 S1: the hearts and minds of fans. Danny Townshend, the CEO 18 00:01:30,450 --> 00:01:34,380 S1: of Sydney FC, speaks to professor Nick Wales about new 19 00:01:34,380 --> 00:01:38,880 S1: business models and the future of football in Australia. How 20 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,020 S1: is a data driven approach to sports marketing and operations 21 00:01:43,020 --> 00:01:47,039 S1: impacting how clubs operate, and how will interest in elite 22 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,360 S1: women's football create new market opportunities for the code? We 23 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,830 S1: also hear from Doctor Felix Tan, Associate Professor of Information 24 00:01:55,830 --> 00:01:59,380 S1: Systems and the director of Unova Research Labs at the 25 00:01:59,410 --> 00:02:04,330 S1: UNSW Business School. He explains how sports organisations from around 26 00:02:04,330 --> 00:02:08,140 S1: the world are using data analytics to enhance both the 27 00:02:08,139 --> 00:02:12,459 S1: fan experience and the performance of the athletes. First up, 28 00:02:12,460 --> 00:02:15,310 S1: professor Nick Wales and Danny Townsend. 29 00:02:19,870 --> 00:02:21,970 S2: Hi, my name is Nick Wales. I'm the director of 30 00:02:21,970 --> 00:02:26,019 S2: Agsm and welcome to the latest episode of the Agsm 31 00:02:26,020 --> 00:02:30,549 S2: Business of Leadership podcast. And I'm delighted to welcome Danny Townsend, 32 00:02:30,580 --> 00:02:33,580 S2: who's the CEO of Sydney FC. So Danny, great to 33 00:02:33,610 --> 00:02:34,239 S2: have you here. 34 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,860 S3: Thanks for having me on, Nick. Danny, we're. 35 00:02:35,860 --> 00:02:37,930 S2: Going to talk about the football club and the business model, 36 00:02:37,930 --> 00:02:41,109 S2: but I'm really interested to know what does the career 37 00:02:41,110 --> 00:02:43,330 S2: of a CEO of a football club look like? Talk 38 00:02:43,330 --> 00:02:44,980 S2: us through your career and how you ended up in 39 00:02:44,980 --> 00:02:45,790 S2: this position. 40 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:47,770 S3: I think it's been a bit of a winding road, really. 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,160 S3: I started off as a professional footballer myself and and 42 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,280 S3: had my average career cut short pretty early, probably for 43 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,030 S3: good reason due to injury, which I think was a 44 00:02:57,030 --> 00:02:58,980 S3: bit of a blessing in disguise, really, because it was 45 00:02:58,980 --> 00:03:02,160 S3: early enough in my career to ensure I focused on 46 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,650 S3: my studies, which was a lot of my teammates weren't 47 00:03:04,650 --> 00:03:08,280 S3: focused on education, they were focused on football, and knowing 48 00:03:08,310 --> 00:03:11,549 S3: that I was having a fairly short runway for my career, 49 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:13,620 S3: I was focused on ensuring that I was looking after 50 00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:17,160 S3: myself after football, and happened to do a postgrad at 51 00:03:17,340 --> 00:03:19,980 S3: New South Wales as well. You know, I was obviously 52 00:03:20,010 --> 00:03:23,250 S3: a person who was predisposed to sport, really didn't see 53 00:03:23,250 --> 00:03:26,160 S3: myself working in any other industry, and was lucky enough 54 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,020 S3: to land a role in the Australian Jockey Club at 55 00:03:28,020 --> 00:03:30,450 S3: the time in a in a commercial role. And then 56 00:03:30,450 --> 00:03:34,050 S3: not long after that set up a sports consulting agency 57 00:03:34,050 --> 00:03:37,770 S3: that led me to a 14 year career overseas, living 58 00:03:37,770 --> 00:03:41,670 S3: in Singapore, London and New York, and had some success there, fortunately, 59 00:03:41,670 --> 00:03:45,240 S3: and we sold that agency back in 2016, and having 60 00:03:45,270 --> 00:03:46,890 S3: had a couple of kids along the way and an 61 00:03:46,890 --> 00:03:50,610 S3: Australian wife, there was a real keenness to bring the 62 00:03:50,610 --> 00:03:53,010 S3: family home. And when we were able to do that, 63 00:03:53,010 --> 00:03:56,110 S3: the opportunity to get back into football. And Australia presented 64 00:03:56,110 --> 00:03:59,260 S3: itself with Sydney FC. And yeah, the rest is history, 65 00:03:59,260 --> 00:03:59,920 S3: I suppose. 66 00:03:59,950 --> 00:04:01,839 S2: I think it might be quite useful for our listeners 67 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,140 S2: to just understand the economics of a football club. So, 68 00:04:05,170 --> 00:04:07,510 S2: you know, where does the revenue come from? Where are 69 00:04:07,510 --> 00:04:10,360 S2: your major expenses? How does that play out over the 70 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,350 S2: course of a year? 71 00:04:11,590 --> 00:04:13,420 S3: Yeah, it's an interesting one. You don't get asked that 72 00:04:13,420 --> 00:04:15,820 S3: a lot as a CEO of a football club, because 73 00:04:15,820 --> 00:04:18,700 S3: most of your stakeholders really are focused on outcomes and 74 00:04:18,700 --> 00:04:21,790 S3: the outcomes that are visible to the majority of those 75 00:04:21,790 --> 00:04:24,220 S3: stakeholders as trophies. But at the end of the day, 76 00:04:24,220 --> 00:04:26,320 S3: you can only really put yourself in a position to 77 00:04:26,350 --> 00:04:29,440 S3: win trophies if you've got a sound business that underpins that. 78 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,320 S3: And I often say at the end of any given season, 79 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:33,880 S3: I don't get to do a lap of honour with 80 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,160 S3: the balance sheet. It's the captain with the trophies that 81 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,550 S3: people care about. But ultimately our business at Sydney FC 82 00:04:39,580 --> 00:04:43,000 S3: was one that for many years didn't make any money. 83 00:04:43,029 --> 00:04:46,089 S3: It relied on on the ownership group to continually pour 84 00:04:46,089 --> 00:04:48,310 S3: money in to keep it going, and I think it 85 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:50,589 S3: was a bit of a foreign concept to me to 86 00:04:50,620 --> 00:04:54,469 S3: actually have a business that was losing money but considered successful. 87 00:04:54,470 --> 00:04:57,200 S3: So that was something I felt my role as a 88 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,979 S3: CEO was about. Yes, facilitating the ongoing success on the field, 89 00:05:00,980 --> 00:05:03,980 S3: but ensuring off the field we could be a sound business. 90 00:05:03,980 --> 00:05:07,549 S3: And that really starts with driving revenues. The key revenues 91 00:05:07,550 --> 00:05:09,980 S3: for a football club are obviously the media grant that 92 00:05:09,980 --> 00:05:13,310 S3: they receive from the centre of the league, its sponsorship, revenues, 93 00:05:13,310 --> 00:05:18,530 S3: membership is critical. Matchday ticket sales, our merchandise, our community 94 00:05:18,529 --> 00:05:22,250 S3: and grassroots work is also a critical part of the business. 95 00:05:22,250 --> 00:05:25,490 S3: But largely they're the revenue streams that the club relies 96 00:05:25,490 --> 00:05:28,730 S3: on to fund the investment we make in football. So 97 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,670 S3: it's a skinny business. It's often appears on the outside 98 00:05:31,670 --> 00:05:34,520 S3: as probably a bigger business than it really is. But yeah, 99 00:05:34,670 --> 00:05:37,609 S3: having run traditional businesses and now run a sporting club, 100 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,070 S3: you know, they're very similar. Your people are critical. Our 101 00:05:40,070 --> 00:05:42,290 S3: people are critical. Whether they're kicking the ball, whether they're 102 00:05:42,290 --> 00:05:44,539 S3: supporting those kicking the ball or whether they're running the 103 00:05:44,540 --> 00:05:47,750 S3: commercial side of the club. Successful clubs rely on great people. 104 00:05:47,750 --> 00:05:50,650 S3: And all businesses, I think, have that same philosophy. 105 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,170 S2: So then just give me a sense how many employees 106 00:05:53,170 --> 00:05:54,880 S2: or how many people are we talking about? 107 00:05:54,910 --> 00:05:56,950 S3: Yeah. If you break it out, typically how the business 108 00:05:56,950 --> 00:05:58,929 S3: operates is the football side of the business and the 109 00:05:58,930 --> 00:06:02,140 S3: administration side of the business. The administration side of the 110 00:06:02,140 --> 00:06:05,440 S3: business is about 40 people. And then in the football side, 111 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,810 S3: if you count the playing group, you know, all of 112 00:06:07,810 --> 00:06:11,500 S3: the high performance men, women, you're upwards of around 100. 113 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:14,950 S3: And then we have a really wide group of casual 114 00:06:14,950 --> 00:06:18,010 S3: staff that will either be working on matchday, running our 115 00:06:18,010 --> 00:06:22,390 S3: community programs, coaching in our coaching clinics. We've got upwards 116 00:06:22,390 --> 00:06:25,540 S3: of 200 casual staff that we pay any given month. 117 00:06:25,540 --> 00:06:28,870 S3: So all in all, we're paying out about 350 odd 118 00:06:28,870 --> 00:06:32,289 S3: people each month, and they're varying degrees of full time 119 00:06:32,290 --> 00:06:33,700 S3: to part time status. 120 00:06:33,730 --> 00:06:36,640 S2: So you come back to Australia, come into, you know, 121 00:06:36,670 --> 00:06:40,390 S2: what's been an incredibly successful club on the field, but 122 00:06:40,390 --> 00:06:43,060 S2: having to ensure that the business running effectively and then 123 00:06:43,089 --> 00:06:45,370 S2: doesn't take very long and then Covid hits. So give 124 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,950 S2: me a sense about what that experience was like and 125 00:06:47,950 --> 00:06:50,050 S2: what was the approach that you took to that? Yeah, I. 126 00:06:50,050 --> 00:06:52,840 S3: Think the first thing I would say is it was scary, 127 00:06:52,870 --> 00:06:55,750 S3: you know, scary for everyone when Covid first hit. We 128 00:06:55,779 --> 00:06:58,510 S3: never really quite knew what it was and how long 129 00:06:58,510 --> 00:07:01,270 S3: it would be here for and what magnitude of disruption 130 00:07:01,270 --> 00:07:04,000 S3: it would provide. And I think I'm one that really 131 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,169 S3: looks at corporate values as being important. And I think 132 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,560 S3: they're often overplayed. And people will talk about culture and 133 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,860 S3: values and they'll post them all over their boardroom walls, 134 00:07:14,860 --> 00:07:18,280 S3: but they really get tested when times are tough. And 135 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,130 S3: one thing that we pride ourselves on at this club, 136 00:07:21,130 --> 00:07:24,430 S3: apart from winning things, is we're a family. And like 137 00:07:24,460 --> 00:07:27,430 S3: good families, when times are tough, they stick together. And 138 00:07:27,430 --> 00:07:29,500 S3: this is going to test whether or not we stick 139 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:32,110 S3: together as a group and come out the other side 140 00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:33,640 S3: of whatever is in front of us. And we don't 141 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:34,989 S3: know what it is and how long it's going to 142 00:07:34,990 --> 00:07:37,540 S3: be here for. But my goal was to come out 143 00:07:37,540 --> 00:07:39,670 S3: the other side with the same people that we went 144 00:07:39,670 --> 00:07:42,850 S3: into it with. And that philosophy stood us in good 145 00:07:42,850 --> 00:07:47,270 S3: stead because, you know, the ownership supported that philosophy. Our 146 00:07:47,270 --> 00:07:52,130 S3: staff collectively took pain together. Everyone took pay cuts. Everyone 147 00:07:52,130 --> 00:07:56,780 S3: including players. Everyone was committed to working together to come 148 00:07:56,780 --> 00:07:59,510 S3: out the other side. And we came out that first 149 00:07:59,510 --> 00:08:03,410 S3: Covid period without losing a staff member. And we finished 150 00:08:03,410 --> 00:08:08,060 S3: that season and won the championship, which was an enormous, 151 00:08:08,060 --> 00:08:11,780 S3: I suppose, relief that we'd sort of been through that. 152 00:08:11,780 --> 00:08:15,320 S3: But then we were rewarded for it with the ultimate trophy, 153 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,020 S3: which was the championship. And then we started another season 154 00:08:18,050 --> 00:08:20,540 S3: thinking it was all behind us. Lo and behold, it 155 00:08:20,540 --> 00:08:23,330 S3: reared its head again and caused us some angst. But 156 00:08:23,570 --> 00:08:25,820 S3: I think this season that we're in currently has probably 157 00:08:25,820 --> 00:08:28,970 S3: been the biggest challenge, having had two seasons of Covid 158 00:08:28,970 --> 00:08:33,860 S3: interruption really going into this one, we didn't expect any 159 00:08:33,860 --> 00:08:36,860 S3: more interruption. Covid was sort of behind us and then 160 00:08:36,860 --> 00:08:39,410 S3: Omicron came from nowhere just after the start of our 161 00:08:39,410 --> 00:08:42,439 S3: season and really hit us during our peak period, which 162 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,610 S3: is January, which is school holidays, Is traditionally our period 163 00:08:45,610 --> 00:08:48,400 S3: where we get a lot of attention. Our fans, which 164 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,280 S3: are largely young families, are on holiday and they're attending 165 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,850 S3: in big numbers and they couldn't attend. And that really, 166 00:08:54,850 --> 00:08:59,680 S3: really hurt everyone, both economically. But just in terms of momentum, 167 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,990 S3: it just took the wind out of everyone's sails. And 168 00:09:02,020 --> 00:09:05,650 S3: but again, we've survived. We're in good shape. The clubs, 169 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,660 S3: you know, values, as I said, have really stood us 170 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:09,520 S3: in good stead. And and here we are. 171 00:09:09,550 --> 00:09:12,520 S2: There's two things that really occur to me that firstly, 172 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:13,930 S2: you've got to have a lot of resilience in that 173 00:09:13,929 --> 00:09:17,949 S2: environment and everyone has to be able to deal with 174 00:09:17,950 --> 00:09:20,740 S2: multiple setbacks. And then the second thing is you've got 175 00:09:20,740 --> 00:09:23,410 S2: to have this incredible agility to be able to respond 176 00:09:23,410 --> 00:09:25,600 S2: to what's going on often on a week by week 177 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,000 S2: basis or a day by day basis. Do you think 178 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,850 S2: it's leaving your organisation stronger for the future? 179 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,260 S3: Resilience and the ability to to move quickly is something 180 00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:37,900 S3: we really learnt over these last couple of years. We 181 00:09:37,929 --> 00:09:40,420 S3: as a league, of course, our men and women's competitions 182 00:09:40,420 --> 00:09:45,589 S3: have rescheduled 88 fixtures. When you talk about rescheduling a fixture, 183 00:09:45,620 --> 00:09:47,689 S3: someone on the outside might think, oh, just pick it 184 00:09:47,690 --> 00:09:49,070 S3: up and you move the date and the time and 185 00:09:49,070 --> 00:09:50,660 S3: you kick off at a different time. But with that 186 00:09:50,660 --> 00:09:53,150 S3: comes having to book a new stadium, having to book 187 00:09:53,150 --> 00:09:55,580 S3: all of the staff of the stadium, you've got to 188 00:09:55,610 --> 00:10:00,319 S3: move the production company, the cameras, the crew, the rigging. 189 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,050 S3: It's an enormous thing to move one game. And when 190 00:10:03,050 --> 00:10:05,540 S3: I look back five years ago, when I first came in, 191 00:10:05,570 --> 00:10:07,520 S3: if someone had asked us to move a game, we'd 192 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,410 S3: have gone, you're kidding me. We can't move a game. 193 00:10:09,410 --> 00:10:11,660 S3: We've got 13 home games and we know where they 194 00:10:11,660 --> 00:10:14,150 S3: are for the next nine months, and we play them 195 00:10:14,150 --> 00:10:16,819 S3: on the days that we're told. Now we're moving games 196 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:19,610 S3: with three days notice. And it does mean that some 197 00:10:19,610 --> 00:10:22,130 S3: of the preciousness and some of the things you took 198 00:10:22,130 --> 00:10:25,880 S3: for granted pre-COVID, now you look back at that and go, wow, 199 00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:28,489 S3: we were pretty high maintenance. And the players and the 200 00:10:28,490 --> 00:10:31,160 S3: coaching staff who said, I can't, I'm preparing for a 201 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,110 S3: game in two weeks time. You can't ask me to 202 00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:35,839 S3: move it a day. Now we're saying to Steve Corica, 203 00:10:35,870 --> 00:10:37,970 S3: the head coach last week, he was going to Melbourne 204 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,240 S3: on Saturday, and on Thursday we said, no, no you're not, 205 00:10:41,250 --> 00:10:43,830 S3: You're going to Perth. And they picked up that day. 206 00:10:43,830 --> 00:10:45,420 S3: We went to the airport, got on a plane, went 207 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:47,849 S3: to Perth, played in one. That would have been unheard 208 00:10:47,850 --> 00:10:50,730 S3: of two years ago. So it does teach you resilience. 209 00:10:50,730 --> 00:10:53,250 S3: I think it brings you group closer together. And I 210 00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:56,280 S3: think those things now are set. You know, the toothpaste 211 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:57,870 S3: is out of the tube. You can't push it back in. 212 00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:00,960 S3: That behaviour is now set in people's ways. And I 213 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,370 S3: think that's one of the good things that will come 214 00:11:02,370 --> 00:11:03,150 S3: out of this. 215 00:11:03,179 --> 00:11:06,030 S2: What does your sort of community engagement look like? Because 216 00:11:06,059 --> 00:11:09,719 S2: it seems that football's deliberately tried to make itself part 217 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,569 S2: of the community. It's a key part of its strategy. 218 00:11:12,570 --> 00:11:14,220 S2: But what does that look like and how do you 219 00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:15,420 S2: run and organise that? 220 00:11:15,450 --> 00:11:17,790 S3: Yeah, it's a really good point and it's one that 221 00:11:17,790 --> 00:11:20,219 S3: when I came back to Australia, I looked at what 222 00:11:20,220 --> 00:11:21,959 S3: are the strengths? Like any business you look at, what 223 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,150 S3: are your strengths, what are the things that you can 224 00:11:24,179 --> 00:11:28,980 S3: bank on that your competitors can't? And participation was ours. 225 00:11:29,010 --> 00:11:31,590 S3: There's more people turn up, pay up week in, week 226 00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:33,989 S3: out to play football in this country than the sum 227 00:11:34,020 --> 00:11:37,620 S3: of rugby league, rugby union and AFL combined, right? So 228 00:11:37,650 --> 00:11:40,640 S3: why isn't our professional game in a similar sort of 229 00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:43,910 S3: level of dominance. It's because we didn't have that connection 230 00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:47,360 S3: over the years. The game, our professional league 16 years old, 231 00:11:47,390 --> 00:11:51,199 S3: you know, it's arguably almost a generation old. We're competing 232 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,350 S3: against leagues like the AFL and NRL, which are over 233 00:11:54,350 --> 00:11:57,710 S3: 100 years old, five generations old. So we can't rely 234 00:11:57,710 --> 00:12:00,410 S3: on that. My grandfather was a supporter of X and 235 00:12:00,410 --> 00:12:02,540 S3: my father was a supporter of X, and so I'm 236 00:12:02,540 --> 00:12:04,280 S3: a supporter of X. We don't have that. So we've 237 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,730 S3: got to work hard now at not converting, you know, 238 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,090 S3: a 40 to 50 year old mum or dad. I 239 00:12:11,090 --> 00:12:14,480 S3: want to convert the five, ten, 15 year old young 240 00:12:14,510 --> 00:12:18,110 S3: Australian footballer who wants to drag their mum and dad 241 00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:21,080 S3: to a football game, and that starts at community. So 242 00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:23,150 S3: I looked at Sydney FC's community program and it was 243 00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:27,620 S3: pretty negligible. We have seven local associations in our catchment area, 244 00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:29,179 S3: and one of the first things I did was reached 245 00:12:29,179 --> 00:12:32,360 S3: out to their CEOs and introduced myself and said, I 246 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,370 S3: want to come and see you. And the response I 247 00:12:34,370 --> 00:12:36,140 S3: got from each of them was, why? What do you 248 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:39,410 S3: mean why? I said, because you own my customers. I 249 00:12:39,410 --> 00:12:42,530 S3: want to connect with your people because they should be 250 00:12:42,530 --> 00:12:44,929 S3: our customers and our fans. And I went around to 251 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,630 S3: Sydney and we talked football, and we talked about the opportunity. 252 00:12:47,630 --> 00:12:50,150 S3: And the one thing they were all challenged with was resource. 253 00:12:50,179 --> 00:12:53,150 S3: They had resource issues because they're typically not for profit. 254 00:12:53,179 --> 00:12:56,270 S3: What I have is a commercial organization is resource and said, well, 255 00:12:56,270 --> 00:12:59,630 S3: like you run all these community programs, I've got resource 256 00:12:59,630 --> 00:13:02,780 S3: to run them. Why don't we build joint venture businesses 257 00:13:02,780 --> 00:13:06,080 S3: together where we'll come in, we'll commercialize them, we'll do 258 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,870 S3: all the hard work and we'll share the money. And 259 00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:10,579 S3: they were like, where do I sign? And that was 260 00:13:10,580 --> 00:13:13,010 S3: really the genesis of it. And we've now, what, five 261 00:13:13,010 --> 00:13:16,790 S3: years on. We've got seven joint venture businesses with associations 262 00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:20,960 S3: at grassroots covering 255 clubs. That is the single biggest 263 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,050 S3: driver of growth in our membership. It's no surprise why? 264 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,530 S2: Yeah, it's a great story and really interesting. So Danny, 265 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,900 S2: you recently took on the role as the CEO of 266 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:32,150 S2: Australia Premier League as well as your day job. And 267 00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:35,360 S2: I'd like to explore this direct to consumer relationship you 268 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,720 S2: want to create and the role of digital in that, 269 00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:39,970 S2: what will that look like and what are you hoping 270 00:13:39,970 --> 00:13:41,199 S2: that that creates? 271 00:13:41,230 --> 00:13:43,420 S3: Yeah. Look, I've been sort of in that role in 272 00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:46,270 S3: a hybrid capacity for about 18 months. So as we 273 00:13:46,270 --> 00:13:48,790 S3: unbundled from the FA, we had to stand up a 274 00:13:48,790 --> 00:13:52,120 S3: business very quickly, a startup operation. We had no staff. 275 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,790 S3: So a bunch of us in different clubs lent our 276 00:13:54,790 --> 00:13:57,730 S3: time to the cause. But key to our strategy at 277 00:13:57,730 --> 00:14:00,939 S3: APL was all about building a direct to consumer relationship 278 00:14:00,940 --> 00:14:03,730 S3: with football fans in this country. We set about building 279 00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:07,720 S3: a broadcast relationship with channel ten and Paramount Plus, which 280 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,599 S3: is the streaming service, but at the same time, building 281 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,199 S3: digital infrastructure and data infrastructure that would prepare us for 282 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,750 S3: the future. And our view is if we can better 283 00:14:16,750 --> 00:14:20,170 S3: understand our fans and our customers and our participants, and 284 00:14:20,170 --> 00:14:24,760 S3: we serve them a digital solution that delivers them genuine utility, 285 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,730 S3: they'll use it every day. They'll engage more often. They're 286 00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:30,790 S3: much more likely to connect to our professional leagues. And 287 00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:34,120 S3: with that comes the more traditional revenues of coming members 288 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,580 S3: buying merchandise, turning up to games and supporting our clubs. 289 00:14:37,580 --> 00:14:40,130 S3: So it was very much what we call a conversion 290 00:14:40,130 --> 00:14:44,060 S3: strategy is converting what we see as survey data records 291 00:14:44,060 --> 00:14:45,860 S3: that say there's millions of people that love our game 292 00:14:45,860 --> 00:14:49,100 S3: and converting them into 1 to 1 data records. We 293 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:51,500 S3: get to know them. We get to understand what they 294 00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:54,380 S3: want out of their football experience, and then personalise that 295 00:14:54,380 --> 00:14:57,740 S3: experience to ensure they keep coming back and they're engaged. 296 00:14:57,770 --> 00:15:00,350 S2: So that potentially leads to a rich stream of data. 297 00:15:00,350 --> 00:15:02,570 S2: And you having sort of access to, you know, quite 298 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,420 S2: fine grained analytics. What sort of change will you need 299 00:15:05,420 --> 00:15:07,400 S2: in your organisation and the rest of the league to 300 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,150 S2: be able to effectively respond to that and effectively use 301 00:15:11,150 --> 00:15:11,840 S2: that data? 302 00:15:11,870 --> 00:15:14,120 S3: Yeah. I say to our team and our people and 303 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,460 S3: culture department who've been building the team with me for 304 00:15:16,460 --> 00:15:18,890 S3: the last sort of 14 months, is that we've got 305 00:15:18,890 --> 00:15:22,610 S3: to think of ourselves as a digital entertainment company with 306 00:15:22,610 --> 00:15:26,510 S3: a tech back end, because that sport, football, is what 307 00:15:26,510 --> 00:15:28,910 S3: we do on the pitch. But the way we think 308 00:15:28,910 --> 00:15:32,460 S3: about our business is that we are a digital entertainment business. 309 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:36,870 S3: And because that's the way our consumers consume things these days, 310 00:15:36,870 --> 00:15:39,120 S3: they do it all on web or app. And, you know, 311 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:40,890 S3: particularly when you look at the strengths of our game, 312 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,180 S3: you know, we are the number one sport in the 313 00:15:42,180 --> 00:15:45,660 S3: country for under 35 seconds. They're digital native. They're not 314 00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:48,870 S3: reading newspapers. They're not watching free to air television necessarily. 315 00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:51,630 S3: But they're all on their mobiles a lot. They're all 316 00:15:51,630 --> 00:15:54,630 S3: on their tablets. They're on their computers. So having a 317 00:15:54,630 --> 00:15:58,950 S3: digital first proposition is going to build the foundation for 318 00:15:58,950 --> 00:16:01,140 S3: our future relationships with our customers. 319 00:16:01,140 --> 00:16:03,660 S2: But it also suggests you're going to need different people 320 00:16:03,660 --> 00:16:06,750 S2: in the organizations, right. Because that understanding of customers and 321 00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:10,170 S2: consumers and the ability to respond to analytics is going 322 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,490 S2: to play a much bigger role. 323 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,680 S3: Yeah, absolutely. And I think when you look at the 324 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,350 S3: way people consume sport these days as well, and the 325 00:16:16,350 --> 00:16:18,870 S3: time they take to consume it, you know, 90 minutes 326 00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:21,210 S3: of football, if you think about what a league and 327 00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:23,550 S3: a club would traditionally do, it would say, I'm going 328 00:16:23,580 --> 00:16:25,980 S3: to sell all my media rights and I'm just going 329 00:16:26,010 --> 00:16:28,890 S3: to focus on playing football. That's not enough anymore. You know, 330 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,330 S3: the football is one thing. That's your core product, but 331 00:16:31,330 --> 00:16:34,250 S3: it is what you deliver your fans around the 90 332 00:16:34,250 --> 00:16:36,760 S3: minutes that really engages them. It's the short form content. 333 00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:39,190 S3: It's the behind the scenes. We've stood up a full 334 00:16:39,190 --> 00:16:44,020 S3: production capability, we've got digital producers, we've got editorial like 335 00:16:44,050 --> 00:16:47,560 S3: we've had to become a media company overnight because that's 336 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,900 S3: what our fans want. The time it takes to sit 337 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:52,570 S3: down and watch 90 minutes of football, particularly for a 338 00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:56,260 S3: 12 year old, it's really hard. But they'll consume football 339 00:16:56,260 --> 00:17:00,400 S3: in many, many different ways, largely on their phone. So yeah, 340 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,410 S3: that was our clear strategy and I think it's the 341 00:17:02,410 --> 00:17:03,280 S3: right strategy. 342 00:17:03,310 --> 00:17:05,530 S2: But how do you monetize that? You can monetize the 343 00:17:05,530 --> 00:17:09,250 S2: 90 minutes by selling a cable package or entry into 344 00:17:09,250 --> 00:17:10,930 S2: a gate. But some of the other stuff is quite 345 00:17:10,930 --> 00:17:12,070 S2: hard to monetize, right? 346 00:17:12,100 --> 00:17:14,980 S3: Yeah. I think you go back to commercial connection and 347 00:17:14,980 --> 00:17:19,180 S3: what sponsorship traditionally was, was whack my logo on the 348 00:17:19,180 --> 00:17:21,340 S3: shirt or around the pitch and have the people sitting 349 00:17:21,340 --> 00:17:24,070 S3: on the couch see my brand and potentially connect with it. 350 00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:26,890 S3: We're moving out of the real estate business and into 351 00:17:26,890 --> 00:17:29,990 S3: the customer acquisition business for our sponsors. So if we 352 00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:33,260 S3: build a rich cohort of consumers who might be in 353 00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:35,959 S3: a certain demographic, who are in the market to buy 354 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,139 S3: health insurance, then I can segment those out and deliver 355 00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:42,469 S3: those customers to my health insurance sponsor and have them 356 00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:44,600 S3: pay a premium for that. Because the cost of acquisition 357 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:46,820 S3: for a health insurance company is really high. If I 358 00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:49,520 S3: can deliver those customers direct to them digitally because I 359 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,350 S3: know who they are, I know what their preferences are, 360 00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:54,020 S3: and I know they're in the market to buy health insurance. 361 00:17:54,020 --> 00:17:56,359 S3: That's a far more valuable proposition than a logo on 362 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,320 S3: a shirt. So as the consumption of sport changes and 363 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,100 S3: the way in which brands orientate with that changing environment 364 00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:08,209 S3: becomes opportunity. And that's where the the revenues reliance on 365 00:18:08,210 --> 00:18:10,520 S3: media companies and traditional sponsorship is changing. 366 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,040 S2: So I want to turn our attention now to what, 367 00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:15,110 S2: to me, looks like one of the most exciting developments 368 00:18:15,109 --> 00:18:17,030 S2: in sport, which is the growth of the women's game 369 00:18:17,030 --> 00:18:20,090 S2: in football in particular, but growing in lots of different leagues. 370 00:18:20,090 --> 00:18:23,090 S2: Can you talk to me about how Sydney FC approached 371 00:18:23,090 --> 00:18:26,390 S2: that and how that's going, and what the future of 372 00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:27,720 S2: the women's game looks like. 373 00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:30,479 S3: Yeah. Look, it's come a long way in a short 374 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,280 S3: space of time, I will say. How do I better 375 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,710 S3: put it from a commitment perspective? I think it's been there. 376 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:36,870 S3: The A-League women, or the W-League as it was previously known, 377 00:18:36,869 --> 00:18:39,540 S3: has been around for about 12 seasons now. One of 378 00:18:39,540 --> 00:18:43,530 S3: the longest running elite female sport competitions in the country. 379 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,169 S3: But again, when I came in, it was treated very 380 00:18:46,170 --> 00:18:49,320 S3: differently to the male part of the club, which I 381 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,810 S3: was intrigued by, particularly as a father of two girls 382 00:18:51,810 --> 00:18:54,180 S3: that played football. And, and there was just so much 383 00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:57,359 S3: that wasn't right in terms of where attention was provided. 384 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,730 S3: And it was almost like you've got all of these 385 00:18:59,730 --> 00:19:03,540 S3: fans and members that love the men's team but don't 386 00:19:03,540 --> 00:19:06,600 S3: care about the women's team. And I'd ask people like, 387 00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:08,850 S3: are you a Sydney FC fan or are you a 388 00:19:08,850 --> 00:19:11,399 S3: Sydney FC men's team fan? You go, no, I'm a 389 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,230 S3: Sydney FC fan. Well, why don't you go to watch 390 00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:16,020 S3: the women's team? So there was this real disconnect between 391 00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:19,140 S3: how the two genders were treated. And I think we've 392 00:19:19,140 --> 00:19:21,150 S3: made huge amount of ground, but we've got a long, 393 00:19:21,150 --> 00:19:23,520 S3: long way to go. And I think our sport is 394 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,350 S3: one of the few that is genuinely gender agnostic. Females 395 00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:29,959 S3: and males can play at the same level, and the 396 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,190 S3: grass roots growth of the female game is enormous. So 397 00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:36,560 S3: it would be crazy for a sport like ours not 398 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,250 S3: to take advantage of that and deliver a product that 399 00:19:40,580 --> 00:19:43,070 S3: is commensurate with the amount of people playing the game. 400 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:45,439 S3: I think where we are challenged and all female sports 401 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,889 S3: is challenged in is the commercial side of things, and 402 00:19:48,890 --> 00:19:51,320 S3: that's improving with a Women's World Cup coming in 23, 403 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,119 S3: and that's opened up a bit of interest in it. 404 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,720 S3: But the metrics that you typically judge commercial outcomes on 405 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,660 S3: are a long, long way off. You know, things like attendance, audiences, 406 00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:02,389 S3: they're just not there. And, you know, I put it 407 00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:06,320 S3: down to just behaviour. And I think as that continues 408 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,040 S3: to change, the commercial metrics around female sports will change, 409 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,250 S3: particularly football, and you'll continue to see investment. But our 410 00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:15,290 S3: perspective as a league and as a club is you've 411 00:20:15,290 --> 00:20:17,210 S3: got to invest in it now to get the benefit 412 00:20:17,210 --> 00:20:20,480 S3: longer term. And we're fortunate that the male game drives 413 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,669 S3: a lot of commercial outcomes that we reinvest in the 414 00:20:22,670 --> 00:20:25,199 S3: female game to enable it to get to a point 415 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,170 S3: where it can generate its own commercial outcomes. 416 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,380 S2: Okay, so you see it as an investment prospect. I wondered, 417 00:20:31,410 --> 00:20:33,659 S2: you know, you talked a little bit there about attendance 418 00:20:33,690 --> 00:20:36,600 S2: at games being a big revenue driver. I'm wondering if 419 00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:40,889 S2: you're seeing a difference in sponsors attitudes to the women's game. 420 00:20:40,890 --> 00:20:43,830 S2: So are there new types of sponsors? Is there an 421 00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:47,340 S2: interest in sponsoring that activity that you haven't seen before? 422 00:20:47,369 --> 00:20:49,590 S3: There definitely is. I think Women's World Cup coming to 423 00:20:49,619 --> 00:20:51,810 S3: Australia and New Zealand has helped. I think the success 424 00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:54,990 S3: of the Matildas particularly has helped. But it's interesting when 425 00:20:54,990 --> 00:20:57,270 S3: you stare into the belly of, you know, a corporate 426 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:02,820 S3: opportunity that started with the female game and the interest 427 00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:06,060 S3: in that is genuine. But when they look at the metrics, 428 00:21:06,060 --> 00:21:08,609 S3: it's like, oh, I'm not sure I can really justify 429 00:21:08,609 --> 00:21:10,830 S3: spending that sort of money. So can I also have 430 00:21:10,830 --> 00:21:12,510 S3: some assets on the male side of the game to 431 00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:15,840 S3: bolster the metrics to justify the investment, which is fine, 432 00:21:15,869 --> 00:21:18,899 S3: you know, because that's part of that maturation process commercially 433 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:23,170 S3: that we're fortunate that we can Use both genders to 434 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,950 S3: drive a collective outcome that one day I'm sure will 435 00:21:26,980 --> 00:21:28,060 S3: be more balanced. 436 00:21:28,090 --> 00:21:30,490 S2: Let's say, Danielle, I wanted to talk, you know, lots 437 00:21:30,490 --> 00:21:34,060 S2: of industries characterized by disruption. And, you know, the one 438 00:21:34,060 --> 00:21:36,190 S2: that I think affects you the most is the disruption 439 00:21:36,190 --> 00:21:40,270 S2: in the media and the traditional broadcast model, those types 440 00:21:40,270 --> 00:21:42,640 S2: of things. Can you talk to me about that change 441 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,940 S2: and how that's impacting you in the way that you're 442 00:21:45,940 --> 00:21:47,440 S2: thinking about the future of that? 443 00:21:47,470 --> 00:21:50,949 S3: Yeah, it's definitely a global, I suppose, trend. You know, 444 00:21:50,980 --> 00:21:54,189 S3: as consumption of media has evolved over the years, you know, 445 00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:58,180 S3: largely professional sports of all kinds of really survived on 446 00:21:58,180 --> 00:22:01,030 S3: the back of media rights fees that have been paid 447 00:22:01,030 --> 00:22:04,030 S3: by largely originally terrestrial broadcasters. And then there was the 448 00:22:04,030 --> 00:22:07,450 S3: emergence of cable and satellite TV, you know, and those 449 00:22:07,450 --> 00:22:11,410 S3: models are very high margin models, which enables those type 450 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,770 S3: of companies to spend significant amounts of money on rights. 451 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,489 S3: As consumption has shifted to a digital first proposition and 452 00:22:18,490 --> 00:22:21,740 S3: streaming has become a more prominent player in in the 453 00:22:21,740 --> 00:22:25,340 S3: distribution of rights. Just that the business model doesn't sustain 454 00:22:25,340 --> 00:22:29,210 S3: the margins that those traditional broadcast models did, which means 455 00:22:29,210 --> 00:22:32,659 S3: it's not affecting the major tier one sports like the 456 00:22:32,660 --> 00:22:34,970 S3: Premier League or the NBA or the NFL, those type 457 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,030 S3: of things. But all the others are being compromised because 458 00:22:38,030 --> 00:22:40,879 S3: the traditional broadcast models are not as profitable as they 459 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:46,040 S3: used to be. The substitution in streaming is much lower margin, therefore, 460 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,919 S3: their willingness to spend rights is diminished. However, that opens 461 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,100 S3: up a much bigger opportunity for sports to build direct 462 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:55,070 S3: to consumer relationships with its customers. And that's where our 463 00:22:55,070 --> 00:22:58,790 S3: focus is around football. We have that 8 million people 464 00:22:58,790 --> 00:23:01,610 S3: that identify with football in this country, and we only 465 00:23:01,609 --> 00:23:04,100 S3: know that through survey data. So what we're about is 466 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:07,790 S3: building the most sophisticated data and digital infrastructure around a 467 00:23:07,790 --> 00:23:09,440 S3: code that will enable us to have a 1 to 468 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,560 S3: 1 data relationship with every fan of football in this country, 469 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,859 S3: and then serve them an experience that is tailored to 470 00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:18,119 S3: their own personal preferences. And if we can do that, 471 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:19,830 S3: and when we do that, because we're in the process 472 00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:23,429 S3: of doing that, we'll have a far richer relationship with 473 00:23:23,430 --> 00:23:26,790 S3: our fans that will ultimately bear more commercial outcomes down 474 00:23:26,790 --> 00:23:27,450 S3: the track. 475 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,740 S2: Does that mean you're potentially disintermediating the broadcasters? Is Sydney 476 00:23:31,740 --> 00:23:35,940 S2: FC going to, for example, start broadcasting its own games 477 00:23:35,940 --> 00:23:40,260 S2: and packaging its own content? Or is the relationship slightly different? 478 00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:42,990 S3: It's a league driven outcome, so you're not going to 479 00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:44,520 S3: be doing that on a club by club basis. But 480 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,440 S3: at the APL, if I put my APL hat on, 481 00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:49,590 S3: you know, that's absolutely our strategy. And it's not to 482 00:23:49,619 --> 00:23:52,919 S3: disaffiliate with traditional media. Like I think there's always a 483 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,840 S3: role to play for all those. We've got a fantastic 484 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,500 S3: relationship with channel ten and ViacomCBS, Paramount+. But if you 485 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:01,590 S3: just look at the way the media is structured in Australia, 486 00:24:01,619 --> 00:24:05,580 S3: you've got, you know, Fairfax and Nine, you've got News Corp, Foxtel, 487 00:24:05,609 --> 00:24:08,550 S3: you've got seven, you've got ten. Everyone sort of backs 488 00:24:08,550 --> 00:24:11,100 S3: their horses and then sort of really promotes their horses hard, 489 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:14,129 S3: but sort of forgets about the others. And the adjacency 490 00:24:14,130 --> 00:24:18,220 S3: that we had in sport Historically is being diminished. So 491 00:24:18,220 --> 00:24:21,790 S3: you really got to own your own relationship with your customer. 492 00:24:21,790 --> 00:24:25,600 S3: And fortunately with the, you know, the evolution and sophistication 493 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,900 S3: of digital and data infrastructure these days, sports can do that. 494 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:31,659 S3: Sports can hold the keys to their future, where in 495 00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:34,900 S3: the past, the sports were heavily reliant on others to 496 00:24:34,930 --> 00:24:37,930 S3: fund those relationships with their customers. 497 00:24:38,020 --> 00:24:40,060 S2: Okay. You know, you sort of having to really think 498 00:24:40,060 --> 00:24:42,760 S2: about new business models and new ways of doing things. 499 00:24:42,790 --> 00:24:44,379 S2: You know, I've heard you talk about it being a 500 00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:46,990 S2: global game. To what extent are you looking at what's 501 00:24:46,990 --> 00:24:50,320 S2: happening with the China Club or a Spanish based club 502 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,590 S2: and drawing, you know, their business lessons there? Or, you know, 503 00:24:53,619 --> 00:24:56,320 S2: where do you look for inspiration about running the business 504 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,060 S2: in its next stage of development? 505 00:24:58,090 --> 00:25:00,970 S3: Yeah, I think I was fortunate in my previous stage 506 00:25:00,970 --> 00:25:04,270 S3: of my career where I was consulting to some of 507 00:25:04,270 --> 00:25:09,040 S3: the biggest football clubs, baseball clubs, basketball franchises, formula One teams. 508 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,109 S3: So I saw a lot of best practice, but it's 509 00:25:11,109 --> 00:25:13,300 S3: all got to be looked at through the lens of 510 00:25:13,300 --> 00:25:15,690 S3: the domestic market that we're in. And one thing that 511 00:25:15,690 --> 00:25:18,629 S3: I know and why so many Australians are successful in 512 00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:22,440 S3: global sports marketing, is that we are a highly competitive 513 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,740 S3: marketplace for sport, and if you were not doing and 514 00:25:25,740 --> 00:25:28,740 S3: delivering best practice, it's really hard. You know, I look 515 00:25:28,770 --> 00:25:31,139 S3: at having lived in New York, you know, there are 516 00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:33,899 S3: more professional sports teams in Sydney than there are in 517 00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:36,750 S3: the tri state area of New York, new Jersey and Connecticut. 518 00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:39,180 S3: You know, and you think about the population size there. 519 00:25:39,180 --> 00:25:43,080 S3: It's tenfold of what's in Sydney. So we are in 520 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,080 S3: a very competitive sports marketing landscape, you know, and we've 521 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,490 S3: got to think differently. And I think some of the 522 00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:50,430 S3: best innovations come out of this market for that reason. 523 00:25:50,430 --> 00:25:52,590 S3: But you've also got to look abroad. You've got to 524 00:25:52,590 --> 00:25:55,740 S3: constantly change. The market is moving. You think about things 525 00:25:55,740 --> 00:25:59,790 S3: like Web3 and tokenization and all this, that this wave 526 00:25:59,790 --> 00:26:03,540 S3: of crypto that's washing over the broader economy, but that's 527 00:26:03,540 --> 00:26:06,090 S3: also really prevalent in sports and how we navigate our 528 00:26:06,090 --> 00:26:09,210 S3: way through that. There's always new things around the corner, 529 00:26:09,210 --> 00:26:12,850 S3: and getting ahead of that and executing appropriately is really important. 530 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,419 S2: Danny, you talked about your career and injuries along your career, 531 00:26:16,450 --> 00:26:19,630 S2: and I'm interested in how you, as a CEO, think 532 00:26:19,630 --> 00:26:23,139 S2: about player management and player well-being and what's changed in 533 00:26:23,140 --> 00:26:24,520 S2: the time since you played? 534 00:26:24,550 --> 00:26:28,150 S3: I think when you look at the change in sophistication 535 00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:31,120 S3: around high performance, back to when I was playing, there 536 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,639 S3: was very little load management, there was very little analytics. 537 00:26:33,670 --> 00:26:36,879 S3: There certainly wasn't the GPS data and and all the 538 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,420 S3: other wellbeing data that we get today. And there's probably 539 00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:43,179 S3: no surprise that the injuries that were happening back in 540 00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:45,130 S3: those days were far greater than they are today. You know, 541 00:26:45,250 --> 00:26:47,920 S3: we invest a huge amount of money at Sydney FC 542 00:26:47,950 --> 00:26:51,760 S3: on the well-being of our players from under 12 all 543 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,250 S3: the way through to our first teams for men and women, 544 00:26:54,250 --> 00:26:57,970 S3: because if they're healthy off the field, their ability to 545 00:26:57,970 --> 00:27:00,850 S3: perform on the field is better. And that's really key 546 00:27:00,850 --> 00:27:01,720 S3: to the strategy. 547 00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:04,359 S2: Danny, how do you deal with the trade off between 548 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,510 S2: the short term pressures to succeed on the paddock and 549 00:27:07,510 --> 00:27:11,270 S2: then the long term career goals of players of the 550 00:27:11,270 --> 00:27:13,970 S2: long term aspirations. Surely that you have to balance those 551 00:27:13,970 --> 00:27:14,810 S2: two things? 552 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,140 S3: Definitely. And look, I'm a real advocate for educating players 553 00:27:18,140 --> 00:27:20,300 S3: and work closely with the PFA from when I was 554 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:24,230 S3: playing as a PFA delegate. Now to my role, it's 555 00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:26,750 S3: really hard to get into a 19 year old professional 556 00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:29,540 S3: athlete that they should think about life after football, because 557 00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:32,390 S3: by nature of being a professional athlete, you're usually so 558 00:27:32,390 --> 00:27:37,070 S3: focused and partly being in a sycophantic environment where your parents, 559 00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:40,010 S3: your friends, your relatives since the age of six have 560 00:27:40,010 --> 00:27:42,800 S3: told you what a wonderful footballer you are, and therefore 561 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,419 S3: you're never going to be anything else other than a 562 00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:47,510 S3: professional footballer. And then you become one, and then you're like, well, 563 00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:49,219 S3: of course I was always going to be one, and 564 00:27:49,220 --> 00:27:51,200 S3: I don't need to think about what happens in 12 565 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,490 S3: years time when I'm 32 and no longer able to play. 566 00:27:55,490 --> 00:27:57,649 S3: And I saw a lot of teammates of mine who 567 00:27:57,650 --> 00:28:00,320 S3: didn't have the opportunity. I had to get an education 568 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,960 S3: while I was playing, who finished their much better careers 569 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,860 S3: than I had and finished and effectively were uneducated, had 570 00:28:06,859 --> 00:28:10,410 S3: no work experience at all, and a flying roof tiles. 571 00:28:10,410 --> 00:28:12,690 S3: And it's not that they're incapable of doing anything, but 572 00:28:12,690 --> 00:28:14,070 S3: they just never took the time to do it because 573 00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:16,050 S3: they didn't think they needed it. And there's only so 574 00:28:16,050 --> 00:28:18,870 S3: many coaching jobs, only so many jobs in the media. 575 00:28:18,869 --> 00:28:21,899 S3: And once you exhaust those, you're back into the workforce 576 00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:23,790 S3: with very little to lean on. And I spent a 577 00:28:23,820 --> 00:28:25,619 S3: lot of time with our team and actually with the 578 00:28:25,619 --> 00:28:27,929 S3: New South Wales and the work we do with the 579 00:28:27,930 --> 00:28:31,710 S3: uni around really encouraging our players in our academies before 580 00:28:31,740 --> 00:28:35,310 S3: they even become professional to focus on their schooling, get 581 00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:38,790 S3: through the High School Certificate, educate themselves where possible, go 582 00:28:38,790 --> 00:28:41,970 S3: to university whilst they're playing. Players have a lot of downtime. 583 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,400 S3: You know, they train for 4 or 5 hours a 584 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,800 S3: day and they've got another 4 or 5 hours where 585 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,920 S3: they're sitting around just playing video games or doing things 586 00:28:49,950 --> 00:28:51,990 S3: at the 19 year olds or 20 year olds. Do 587 00:28:52,020 --> 00:28:54,630 S3: you know, I really impress upon them, go to university, 588 00:28:54,660 --> 00:28:56,520 S3: get a degree. If it takes you 6 or 7 years, 589 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,490 S3: just do it because there'll be a time, inevitably in 590 00:28:59,490 --> 00:29:01,020 S3: your career where you're going to need it. And I 591 00:29:01,020 --> 00:29:03,600 S3: think that's starting to change. But it is hard sometimes, 592 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,360 S3: as I said, because you're young, confident players don't often 593 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,620 S3: want to think about what life after football means, but 594 00:29:08,620 --> 00:29:11,620 S3: inevitably they end up there and we've got to prepare 595 00:29:11,620 --> 00:29:12,490 S3: them best for it. 596 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,400 S2: Danny, it's been a fascinating conversation. I hope you go 597 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,920 S2: great on the field, but fantastic to learn a little 598 00:29:17,950 --> 00:29:20,200 S2: bit more about the organization and running the business. So 599 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:21,100 S2: thanks for joining me. 600 00:29:21,130 --> 00:29:23,320 S3: No, thanks for having me on, Nick. Appreciate it. 601 00:29:30,010 --> 00:29:34,210 S1: According to Danny, relationships between sporting clubs and their customers 602 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,200 S1: are changing at a rapid pace with new digital technology 603 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,410 S1: and access to data. Sports clubs are in a unique 604 00:29:41,410 --> 00:29:46,480 S1: position to connect and grow alongside their fans. So what 605 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,140 S1: does the future hold and what impact can these data 606 00:29:50,170 --> 00:29:54,730 S1: driven decisions have on the economic value of the sporting industry? 607 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,830 S1: From unique user journeys to using AI in gymnastics judging, 608 00:29:59,830 --> 00:30:04,150 S1: there's plenty of possibilities. Let's hear from Doctor Felix Tan. 609 00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:11,910 S4: I'm Felix Stein, and I'm an associate professor of information 610 00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:15,900 S4: systems and the director of UNSW Nova Research Labs at 611 00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:20,160 S4: UNSW Business School. My research interests are in digital transformation 612 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:25,230 S4: for good digital platforms, e-commerce, sports analytics and enterprise systems. 613 00:30:25,230 --> 00:30:29,670 S4: So at UNSW Nova Research Labs, I lead multidisciplinary research 614 00:30:29,670 --> 00:30:34,560 S4: teams and we collaborate with businesses to co-create solutions capability 615 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,520 S4: practices to support their digital transformation journey. So, for example, 616 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,830 S4: over the last few years we have been working with SAP, 617 00:30:40,860 --> 00:30:44,340 S4: a software partner, studying the role of data analytics in 618 00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:48,660 S4: enabling organisations in the sporting industry. The case studies that 619 00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:52,200 S4: we've written about is of Bayern Munich football club, Red 620 00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:56,730 S4: Bull Munich ice hockey team, Arsenal handball team in Mannheim, 621 00:30:56,730 --> 00:31:00,720 S4: Gymnastics Federation in Europe, and we study how these sporting 622 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,660 S4: organisations achieve business performance and sporting excellence through data analytics. 623 00:31:05,690 --> 00:31:10,670 S4: Overseas professional bodies are already using data analytics to enhance 624 00:31:10,670 --> 00:31:15,200 S4: the sporting experience for fans and also for sporting performance 625 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,450 S4: of athletes, particularly in spectator sports like the NBA, NFL, 626 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,220 S4: National Baseball League in America, professional football in Europe. So 627 00:31:25,220 --> 00:31:29,780 S4: from our research, we uncovered rare insights to the applications 628 00:31:29,780 --> 00:31:33,920 S4: of data analytics to player and team performance during and 629 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,870 S4: after game day. Event management on game day and customer 630 00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:43,130 S4: fan engagement. We revealed through our research how data analytics 631 00:31:43,130 --> 00:31:48,860 S4: enable these organizations to achieve transformation of its business ecosystem. 632 00:31:48,890 --> 00:31:53,690 S4: We also uncover new practices and formative strategies that drive 633 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,590 S4: industry and culture change in the industry and build a 634 00:31:57,590 --> 00:32:03,710 S4: network of core specialization amongst its stakeholders. because generally, technology 635 00:32:03,710 --> 00:32:06,380 S4: and digital innovation and the use of data have the 636 00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:11,240 S4: means to improve how fans engage with the sport and 637 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,620 S4: also how athletes playing the sport can engage with fans. 638 00:32:15,650 --> 00:32:20,180 S4: One of the projects that we did with SAP was 639 00:32:20,180 --> 00:32:24,380 S4: to seek a better understanding of how professional sporting organizations 640 00:32:24,380 --> 00:32:28,790 S4: like Bayern Munich Football Club use data and analytical solutions 641 00:32:28,790 --> 00:32:32,840 S4: to achieve leadership not just from a sporting performance perspective, 642 00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:36,320 S4: but also from a business perspective as a highly successful 643 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,100 S4: running organization. So what we did was put together a 644 00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:45,229 S4: case study of Bayern Munich's Digital 4.0 transformation journey. And 645 00:32:45,230 --> 00:32:48,650 S4: what we learned was some of the very interesting things 646 00:32:48,650 --> 00:32:52,460 S4: that they did with data analytics, particularly around game day 647 00:32:52,460 --> 00:32:58,040 S4: performance by the athletes, event day management and around fan engagement. 648 00:32:58,070 --> 00:33:01,470 S4: So the research revealed insights on how data can be 649 00:33:01,470 --> 00:33:04,860 S4: used to benefit businesses and their customers and their journeys. 650 00:33:04,860 --> 00:33:10,050 S4: So data analytics gives management of sporting organisations the power 651 00:33:10,050 --> 00:33:13,860 S4: and the opportunity to identify new opportunities and find new 652 00:33:13,860 --> 00:33:19,710 S4: solutions to known problems. In football, data driven decisions can 653 00:33:19,710 --> 00:33:24,090 S4: have huge economic and social impact on the organisations across 654 00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:29,700 S4: recruitment of talent, performance, event day management and marketing. So, 655 00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:33,720 S4: for example, user journeys of fans are very different. So 656 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,620 S4: from our research with Bayern Munich, we revealed that no 657 00:33:37,650 --> 00:33:39,780 S4: two fans are the same. And in the case of 658 00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:44,130 S4: Bayern Munich, 81 user personas were found to be associated 659 00:33:44,130 --> 00:33:47,610 S4: with the club. So 81 different user journeys and potential 660 00:33:47,610 --> 00:33:50,970 S4: use of data. So, for example, a 20 year old 661 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,090 S4: fan from Shanghai and how he engages with the club 662 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,420 S4: would be very different from an 80 year old fan 663 00:33:57,420 --> 00:34:00,790 S4: in Bavaria will be very different. So the opportunities for 664 00:34:00,790 --> 00:34:05,020 S4: sports analytics and data analytics to create opportunities to create 665 00:34:05,020 --> 00:34:08,590 S4: and target product service systems of the different personas you 666 00:34:08,590 --> 00:34:10,600 S4: can imagine is huge. 667 00:34:16,930 --> 00:34:19,930 S1: So we've heard about how data can improve the user 668 00:34:19,930 --> 00:34:24,280 S1: experience for fans. Now let's hear more from Felix about 669 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,779 S1: the role analytics can play in the evaluation of sporting success. 670 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,330 S4: The impact and the value of sports analytics for the 671 00:34:37,330 --> 00:34:41,770 S4: business of sports in Australia and Asean is huge. Australia 672 00:34:41,770 --> 00:34:45,370 S4: is a big sporting nation and like many countries in Asia, 673 00:34:45,370 --> 00:34:48,370 S4: PAC has a huge fan base for professional clubs in 674 00:34:48,370 --> 00:34:52,810 S4: Americas and Europe, especially in spectator sports such as football, 675 00:34:52,810 --> 00:34:57,470 S4: rugby league, rugby union, AFL football, for example, has a 676 00:34:57,469 --> 00:35:02,030 S4: huge fan base across the Asia-pac, including Australia, where countries 677 00:35:02,030 --> 00:35:05,600 S4: often invite top teams from the top leagues in Europe 678 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,080 S4: to Australia and the Asia-pac. And these events are usually 679 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,380 S4: very well received. So we can see that the appetite 680 00:35:12,380 --> 00:35:17,779 S4: for sports data is high and hence analytics demand would 681 00:35:17,780 --> 00:35:21,200 S4: also be very high. A case in point in football 682 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,010 S4: and the value that it brings, it is a multi-billion 683 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,469 S4: dollar industry, and refereeing and officiating or judging in the 684 00:35:30,469 --> 00:35:33,950 S4: sport of football is a vital aspect of the sport 685 00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:38,000 S4: and has huge ramifications for the business. But it's also 686 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,810 S4: prone to errors arising from the inherent limitations to human 687 00:35:41,810 --> 00:35:45,890 S4: cognitive functions and usually the speed of sports. So technology 688 00:35:45,890 --> 00:35:49,370 S4: has the potential to assist in decision making, but also 689 00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:52,790 S4: to change policy, as we have seen in video assisted 690 00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:58,509 S4: refereeing technology, where the technology can help officials better enforce 691 00:35:58,510 --> 00:36:01,120 S4: the laws of the game in the spirit that the 692 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,780 S4: game should be played, and delivering the appropriate sanctions and 693 00:36:04,780 --> 00:36:09,640 S4: disciplinary actions to the offending players. So the application of 694 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,540 S4: the technology can also be used in other sports. In 695 00:36:13,540 --> 00:36:17,080 S4: another work with colleagues in Belgium and Japan, who studied 696 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,790 S4: the tensions and paradoxes that are related to artificial intelligence 697 00:36:21,820 --> 00:36:27,969 S4: powered evaluation of artistic gymnastics. Given the complexity of scoring 698 00:36:27,969 --> 00:36:32,950 S4: and the speed of athletes performance, technology can help alleviate 699 00:36:32,950 --> 00:36:37,240 S4: some of the problems of judging, and sports analytics has 700 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,299 S4: a very big role to play in delivering value for 701 00:36:40,330 --> 00:36:41,200 S4: that sport. 702 00:36:49,420 --> 00:36:52,210 S1: Thank you for joining us for The Business of Sport. 703 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,460 S1: To find out more about the Agsm Business of Leadership 704 00:36:55,460 --> 00:37:00,739 S1: podcast series, search for Agsm the Business of Podcast Online 705 00:37:00,739 --> 00:37:04,610 S1: or find us on your favorite podcast platform. Please share, 706 00:37:04,610 --> 00:37:08,839 S1: rate and review and subscribe to Agsm Business Podcast and 707 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,020 S1: look out for future episodes. In the meantime, you can 708 00:37:12,020 --> 00:37:16,700 S1: follow Agsm at UNSW Business School on LinkedIn and Facebook. 709 00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:20,390 S1: For more industry insights for an accelerating world, or find 710 00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:26,030 S1: us at agsm edu.au. Until next time, thank you for listening.