WEBVTT - Why do we keep secrets? 0:00:00.009 --> 0:00:02.990 This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri people, 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:06.359 the Woi-Wurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:09.238 to their elders, past and present, and emerging. 0:00:14.550 --> 0:00:17.870 From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University 0:00:17.870 --> 0:00:20.389 of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks. 0:00:21.479 --> 0:00:25.159 Hi, and welcome to PsychTalks. I'm Associate Professor Cassie Hayward, 0:00:25.389 --> 0:00:27.959 and I'm Nick Haslam, a professor and social psychologist here 0:00:27.959 --> 0:00:31.479 at the University of Melbourne's School of Psychological Sciences. Well, 0:00:31.799 --> 0:00:34.159 today is our very last episode for this series, and 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:35.430 we really hope you've enjoyed it. 0:00:35.639 --> 0:00:38.000 I know I've learned a lot, especially all the takeaways 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:39.869 that I can use at home. And if you've felt 0:00:39.869 --> 0:00:42.000 the same, feel free to leave us a review and 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:43.560 spread the word about this series. 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.150 OK, so today we're exploring secrets, why we keep them, 0:00:47.279 --> 0:00:49.360 and what are some of the personal and social costs 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.490 of keeping things tucked away. To tell us all about it, 0:00:52.529 --> 0:00:56.169 we're joined by Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi. 0:01:00.009 --> 0:01:01.799 Thank you so much for talking to us today, Katie 0:01:01.799 --> 0:01:05.150 and Valentina. So before we get into the research you've 0:01:05.150 --> 0:01:08.149 been doing, can you tell us, if it's not a secret, uh, 0:01:08.269 --> 0:01:10.649 how and why you decided to do research on secrecy? 0:01:11.029 --> 0:01:13.510 Well, I think, who doesn't want to know about other 0:01:13.510 --> 0:01:20.649 people's secrets? They're scintillating, fascinating, exciting to hear about. Um, 0:01:20.769 --> 0:01:24.129 but secrets also tell us something really fundamental about human 0:01:24.129 --> 0:01:27.730 nature because we're very communicative as a species. We like 0:01:27.730 --> 0:01:30.680 to talk to other people and share things with other people. 0:01:31.019 --> 0:01:34.199 So why would we ever want to hold things back 0:01:34.199 --> 0:01:36.610 in conversation? So the things that we keep to ourselves 0:01:36.610 --> 0:01:40.169 actually tells us really, uh, quite a bit about what 0:01:40.169 --> 0:01:42.199 people are like and what they're trying to achieve. 0:01:42.690 --> 0:01:46.089 Well, for me, I got very inspired when Kate and 0:01:46.089 --> 0:01:48.730 I talked about what I could focus my PhD on. 0:01:49.220 --> 0:01:52.730 And I found this topic particularly appealing because, as Katie 0:01:52.730 --> 0:01:55.370 was saying, it's quite relatable and it's also very relatable 0:01:55.370 --> 0:01:58.720 to my work as a clinical psychologist. It helped me 0:01:58.889 --> 0:02:01.730 have a bit more of a, um, maybe scientific look 0:02:01.730 --> 0:02:06.330 at how the choices that people make about keeping secrets 0:02:06.330 --> 0:02:09.329 or sharing secrets have an impact on their well-being as 0:02:09.330 --> 0:02:11.478 well as perhaps even their psychopathology. 0:02:12.130 --> 0:02:14.800 It is such a fascinating area, but is it hard? 0:02:15.288 --> 0:02:18.600 To research just in terms of people feeling comfortable talking 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.929 to you about secrets. Do you think, do you think 0:02:20.929 --> 0:02:24.610 you have a good idea of how many people keep secrets, 0:02:24.690 --> 0:02:27.080 or do you think some people keep that a secret? 0:02:27.250 --> 0:02:29.929 Yeah, it's absolutely. It's a really important question when you're 0:02:29.929 --> 0:02:32.000 studying these things. How do you get people to tell 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.130 you about their innermost secrets? Fortunately for us, it turns 0:02:36.130 --> 0:02:39.410 out that the vast majority of people are keeping a 0:02:39.410 --> 0:02:44.029 secret at any given time. In fact, 97% of people That's, uh, 0:02:44.149 --> 0:02:46.669 certainly almost all of us in this room, uh, are 0:02:46.669 --> 0:02:50.389 keeping a secret right now. And on average people keep 0:02:50.389 --> 0:02:54.228 between 10 and 13 secrets at any given time. So 0:02:54.229 --> 0:02:57.149 how we ask about this is not by asking people 0:02:57.149 --> 0:03:01.380 to divulge the information in their secrets, but we give them, uh, 0:03:01.389 --> 0:03:06.149 the common secrets questionnaire, which is a validated, um, scientific 0:03:06.149 --> 0:03:11.570 measure of 38 common things that people keep secret. And 0:03:11.580 --> 0:03:14.690 we asked them to indicate which of those categories of 0:03:14.690 --> 0:03:19.059 information they're currently keeping secret from one person, uh, multiple 0:03:19.059 --> 0:03:22.339 people or even everybody in their lives. So if people 0:03:22.339 --> 0:03:25.940 listening are interested in finding out how many secrets they're keeping, 0:03:26.020 --> 0:03:30.300 they can go to keepingsecrets.org and take the common secrets 0:03:30.300 --> 0:03:31.570 questionnaire themselves. 0:03:31.860 --> 0:03:34.660 And from that, do you have an idea of what 0:03:34.660 --> 0:03:37.779 types of things people are most likely to keep secret? 0:03:38.130 --> 0:03:41.600 Yeah, these 38 common categories, I like to group them 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:47.440 into maybe 3 broad different groups. The first is secrets 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.440 that involve other people or about other people. These could 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:55.490 be the classic infidelity or even having extramarital thoughts. Um, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.789 it could be having lied to someone or potentially even 0:03:58.789 --> 0:04:03.330 harming someone, having relationship issues with another person. The second 0:04:03.330 --> 0:04:07.889 category is pieces of information about ourselves, things like sexual behaviour, 0:04:08.089 --> 0:04:11.570 a personal history that we don't want others to know about, um, 0:04:11.729 --> 0:04:14.770 feeling discontented at work or in a physical appearance or 0:04:14.770 --> 0:04:19.488 in our social relationships, um, mental health or, um, potentially 0:04:19.488 --> 0:04:23.690 sexual orientation, even our own beliefs or, um, who we 0:04:23.690 --> 0:04:26.910 intend to vote for. And the third category of secrets, 0:04:26.980 --> 0:04:30.059 which is a really interesting one, is positive secrets. So 0:04:30.059 --> 0:04:32.099 these are things that we actually maybe feel quite good 0:04:32.100 --> 0:04:35.928 about but for various reasons are keeping from other people, um, 0:04:35.940 --> 0:04:40.109 at this time, they might be, um, an upcoming, uh, uh, 0:04:40.140 --> 0:04:44.928 pregnancy announcement, um, an intention to propose marriage to someone, 0:04:45.260 --> 0:04:46.979 a surprise or a piece of good news that we 0:04:46.980 --> 0:04:48.820 haven't shared with others. So we keep a lot of 0:04:48.820 --> 0:04:50.899 different things secret from others. 0:04:51.940 --> 0:04:54.730 So we've talked in a different episode of PsychTalks about 0:04:54.730 --> 0:04:58.339 the mental load, and this seems like a different sort of, uh, 0:04:58.369 --> 0:05:00.940 mental load. Uh, I, I'm sure it's hard for secret 0:05:00.940 --> 0:05:03.420 keepers to keep secrets, and I, I don't mean just 0:05:03.420 --> 0:05:05.450 in terms of the desire to blab to someone else, 0:05:05.738 --> 0:05:08.660 but does it take some sort of toll on people 0:05:08.660 --> 0:05:09.850 having to keep it a secret? 0:05:09.980 --> 0:05:12.329 It absolutely does. And what I think is interesting about 0:05:12.329 --> 0:05:14.809 secrecy is it's not actually the times that we have 0:05:14.809 --> 0:05:18.880 to hold information back in conversation that's challenging. It's the 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.640 times when we're alone and we're thinking about that secret 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.390 and it returns to our mind that's really the thing 0:05:24.390 --> 0:05:27.070 that we find the most challenging. And this makes sense 0:05:27.070 --> 0:05:30.160 if you think about it, when we conceal information from 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:34.309 other people, those tend to be situations that we plan for, 0:05:34.459 --> 0:05:37.880 we prepare for, we imagine what we might say, and 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.428 we maybe come up with strategies to help us navigate 0:05:40.428 --> 0:05:41.799 that particular conversation. 0:05:42.380 --> 0:05:44.988 But we have many, many other times when we're not 0:05:44.988 --> 0:05:47.029 talking to other people that our minds are free to 0:05:47.029 --> 0:05:50.029 think about pretty much anything. And one thing that our 0:05:50.029 --> 0:05:52.420 minds really seem to return to over and over again 0:05:52.420 --> 0:05:55.308 is information that we're keeping secret from others. Maybe we're 0:05:55.309 --> 0:05:57.549 trying to problem solve that, or we're thinking about what 0:05:57.549 --> 0:06:00.909 that means for us, and this kind of mental toll 0:06:00.910 --> 0:06:04.070 seems to be what is most burdensome about secrecy. 0:06:04.690 --> 0:06:07.299 So do we know how often people think about those 0:06:07.299 --> 0:06:08.558 secrets they've stored away? 0:06:08.700 --> 0:06:11.380 Yes, much more than they have to conceal those secrets 0:06:11.380 --> 0:06:14.950 in conversation. It's usually around about, um, at least 2 0:06:14.950 --> 0:06:18.738 to 1 or even, um, sometimes 1 to 3 that 0:06:18.738 --> 0:06:21.609 we would be thinking about our secrets more than needing 0:06:21.609 --> 0:06:25.670 to conceal those secrets from other people in everyday life. 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.250 So do we know how many times people think about 0:06:28.250 --> 0:06:28.890 their secrets? 0:06:29.089 --> 0:06:31.808 We do, actually. So Katie and I, with, uh, a 0:06:31.809 --> 0:06:35.369 couple of colleagues of ours, um, Elise and Michael have 0:06:35.369 --> 0:06:40.558 recently introduced a new way of exploring secrecy in everyday life. 0:06:40.970 --> 0:06:44.089 So we have found a way of asking people multiple 0:06:44.089 --> 0:06:46.850 times a day for many days. So sometimes even a 0:06:46.850 --> 0:06:50.719 week or two weeks, how often they engage in these processes. 0:06:50.850 --> 0:06:54.420 And what we found was perhaps a bit surprising. People 0:06:54.670 --> 0:06:59.070 think about the secrets approximately 30 times per week, and 0:06:59.070 --> 0:07:02.469 only half the times they are required to, uh, conceal 0:07:02.470 --> 0:07:05.469 their secrets. So what I'm trying to say here is 0:07:05.470 --> 0:07:07.529 that secrets are much more on our mind than they 0:07:07.529 --> 0:07:08.700 are on our lips. 0:07:08.910 --> 0:07:11.269 And it's not just because people can't repress, it's because 0:07:11.269 --> 0:07:13.825 they're actively thinking about things related to it and maybe 0:07:13.825 --> 0:07:14.545 solving problems. 0:07:14.665 --> 0:07:19.054 Yeah, and that kind of mental, uh, arithmetic can take 0:07:19.054 --> 0:07:22.214 a lot of different forms. Sometimes it can be more 0:07:22.225 --> 0:07:25.665 productive than others. Maybe we're problem solving, maybe we're thinking 0:07:25.665 --> 0:07:28.984 through different ways that we can reinterpret or think about 0:07:28.984 --> 0:07:32.010 this information. In fact, what some of our research shows 0:07:32.010 --> 0:07:34.850 is that people actually quite like thinking about their secrets, 0:07:34.929 --> 0:07:37.329 which might seem a little bit strange, but this is 0:07:37.329 --> 0:07:40.890 really important information to us. We tend to engage with 0:07:40.890 --> 0:07:43.170 thoughts of those secrets more than we suppress thoughts of 0:07:43.170 --> 0:07:45.850 those secrets. But of course, the more you think about 0:07:45.850 --> 0:07:49.140 something without coming to a resolution, the more that that 0:07:49.140 --> 0:07:51.619 information may come to mind over time. And if we 0:07:51.619 --> 0:07:53.820 start to feel negative about that, if we start to 0:07:53.820 --> 0:07:56.619 feel like we can't actually see a way through, that 0:07:56.619 --> 0:07:59.850 tends to be when thinking about secrets takes a toll. 0:08:00.119 --> 0:08:03.329 And just thinking about this kind of rumination on the secrets, 0:08:03.329 --> 0:08:05.630 there's a lot of talk these days about people being 0:08:05.630 --> 0:08:10.260 their authentic selves. Does keeping secrets mess around with that, 0:08:10.269 --> 0:08:13.709 in that we can't really be authentic if we're storing 0:08:13.709 --> 0:08:15.869 away all these things that we can't talk about or 0:08:15.869 --> 0:08:17.828 thinking about these things that we can't talk about? Does 0:08:17.829 --> 0:08:19.339 that have a toll on people? 0:08:19.630 --> 0:08:23.670 Yeah, absolutely. Actually, that's, uh, only one of the many 0:08:23.670 --> 0:08:27.059 ways in which secrets can be, uh, harmful for us 0:08:27.230 --> 0:08:30.149 and taking a toll, both on a personal level and 0:08:30.149 --> 0:08:32.849 on a relational level. If you think about it, it 0:08:32.895 --> 0:08:35.244 kind of makes sense, right? Because if you are holding 0:08:35.244 --> 0:08:38.635 back some information from others, you know that you're concealing 0:08:38.635 --> 0:08:41.034 a part of you from other people. And in that sense, 0:08:41.085 --> 0:08:43.924 you're not being your true authentic self. So you, of course, you, 0:08:44.044 --> 0:08:48.044 you're gonna end up feeling inauthentic. And with that, we'll 0:08:48.044 --> 0:08:51.765 also go a whole range of other feelings, feeling negative 0:08:51.765 --> 0:08:55.645 about yourself, for example, low or maybe anxious. And on 0:08:55.645 --> 0:08:58.284 top of that, as I was mentioning, there are some 0:08:58.284 --> 0:09:02.084 very important relational costs that come with holding information back. 0:09:02.690 --> 0:09:06.130 You don't get to get the support from others, you 0:09:06.130 --> 0:09:10.919 get to end up feeling quite isolated. So yes, authenticity 0:09:10.919 --> 0:09:14.289 is a cost and there are many other costs associated 0:09:14.289 --> 0:09:15.239 with secrecy. 0:09:15.770 --> 0:09:18.609 Are there any other harms of keeping secrets? 0:09:19.159 --> 0:09:22.479 Yeah, we've sort of alluded to the fact that many 0:09:22.479 --> 0:09:25.760 secrets that we keep, um, involve quite negative information and 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.429 that goes hand in hand with a variety of, uh, 0:09:28.479 --> 0:09:32.789 negative emotions that we might experience. You might think that, um, 0:09:32.799 --> 0:09:35.840 people only ever feel guilt or shame about their secrets, 0:09:35.919 --> 0:09:38.549 but what our research shows is that people feel a 0:09:38.695 --> 0:09:43.223 wide variety of emotions about their secrets. Not always negative, 0:09:43.604 --> 0:09:47.385 sometimes positive, sometimes people might feel relief, for example, that 0:09:47.385 --> 0:09:51.694 they didn't have to, um, conceal information from others or, uh, 0:09:51.784 --> 0:09:54.145 sometimes they can actually feel quite relaxed about their secrets 0:09:54.145 --> 0:09:56.784 when not in a context where they need to divulge 0:09:56.784 --> 0:10:00.460 that information from others. But of course, the majority of 0:10:00.460 --> 0:10:04.419 emotions that we feel about negatively toned secrets are negative 0:10:04.419 --> 0:10:10.659 in nature, things like anxiety, sadness, um, also guilt and shame, 0:10:10.700 --> 0:10:15.940 but certainly embarrassment, um, and these kinds of negative emotions 0:10:15.940 --> 0:10:18.820 tend to be more commonly experienced in relation to secrecy 0:10:18.820 --> 0:10:20.489 than to positive emotions. 0:10:21.340 --> 0:10:23.830 And are there certain types of secrets that are more 0:10:23.830 --> 0:10:26.539 harmful than others, um, either in terms of the impact 0:10:26.539 --> 0:10:29.909 on the person keeping the secret, uh, but also the 0:10:29.909 --> 0:10:31.969 impact if they were to reveal that secret? 0:10:32.150 --> 0:10:34.270 Yeah, that's a very great question that I think has 0:10:34.270 --> 0:10:38.250 been very well addressed by some, uh, research by, uh, 0:10:38.349 --> 0:10:42.789 Michael Slepian and Alex Koch. Uh, they, um, recently, um, 0:10:42.909 --> 0:10:48.429 published a paper where they use the, uh, data-driven approach 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:53.479 and they examined hundreds of, uh, actually thousands of, uh, 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:57.400 real life secrets. And they asked hundreds of people to 0:10:57.460 --> 0:11:01.159 read them along 3 different dimensions. So we now know 0:11:01.159 --> 0:11:04.030 that it's a little bit less about the actual, uh, 0:11:04.039 --> 0:11:08.390 idiosyncratic content of secrets. And it's much more about, uh, 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:13.239 this dimension that are then linked to secrets caused and, uh, harm. 0:11:13.510 --> 0:11:17.299 And these dimensions are 3. So one is how immoral 0:11:17.299 --> 0:11:20.059 the secret is. So if you think about that, if 0:11:20.059 --> 0:11:22.849 you consider your secret as highly immoral, you are more 0:11:22.849 --> 0:11:26.690 likely to experience shame about it. The second, uh, dimension 0:11:26.690 --> 0:11:30.395 is how relational the secret is. So if a secret 0:11:30.395 --> 0:11:33.114 is helpful in that you are protecting someone else or 0:11:33.114 --> 0:11:36.194 protecting your relationship, that's good for you, right? But if 0:11:36.195 --> 0:11:38.755 on the other hand, you know that this secret is 0:11:38.755 --> 0:11:41.674 drawing a gap between you and other people, it's going 0:11:41.674 --> 0:11:45.145 to lead you to feel quite disconnected and socially isolated. 0:11:45.594 --> 0:11:48.875 And then the third dimension is how much of a 0:11:48.875 --> 0:11:52.224 clear goal you have about holding these secrets. This is, 0:11:52.234 --> 0:11:55.549 for example, the case of professional secrets. So if you 0:11:55.549 --> 0:11:59.190 have a clear goal and objective, then you might feel 0:11:59.190 --> 0:12:02.549 quite certain about what you're doing there, vice versa, if 0:12:02.549 --> 0:12:05.549 you don't have that, you're gonna feel quite uncertain and 0:12:05.549 --> 0:12:07.869 that will lead to psychological harm. 0:12:08.729 --> 0:12:11.599 I think those elements of secrets are really helpful for 0:12:11.599 --> 0:12:15.039 people to think about the different types of secrets, because 0:12:15.039 --> 0:12:18.679 I think when we think secrets, we automatically think of 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.039 bad things that have happened that we're keeping secret, and 0:12:22.039 --> 0:12:24.000 people wouldn't, you wouldn't want people to know because of 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.679 the shame or the guilt or the morality that you've mentioned. But, um, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.479 not all secrets are bad, and just from my perspective, 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:32.320 so when my husband and I got married, it was 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:35.700 a secret. We didn't tell anyone. And when we had kids, 0:12:35.900 --> 0:12:38.460 like many parents, we don't tell anyone that we're pregnant 0:12:38.460 --> 0:12:42.169 for a while, so they were all associated with very happy, 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.099 joyous things that we were just keeping secret for certain reasons. 0:12:46.140 --> 0:12:49.739 But is, is there a different experience of the secret 0:12:49.739 --> 0:12:52.900 keeper when it's a positive secret, as opposed to a 0:12:52.900 --> 0:12:54.809 negative or a moral or shameful? 0:12:55.690 --> 0:12:58.330 There absolutely is, and I think that people can think 0:12:58.330 --> 0:13:01.849 about this intuitively in their own lives. Certainly positive information 0:13:01.849 --> 0:13:04.229 that we keep secret, maybe that we're holding back to 0:13:04.229 --> 0:13:06.679 reveal at the right time or in the right way, 0:13:06.890 --> 0:13:09.919 we can actually feel quite good about and excited about it, 0:13:09.929 --> 0:13:13.679 can heighten the anticipation before revealing that to others. So 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:18.130 that is what we've found, whereas negatively toned secrets tend 0:13:18.130 --> 0:13:20.449 to make us feel bad, um, the more that our 0:13:20.450 --> 0:13:23.210 minds return to them and that we ruminate about them 0:13:23.210 --> 0:13:27.289 over time. Whereas positive secrets are actually ones that we 0:13:27.340 --> 0:13:30.080 seem to feel good about, which is kind of ironic 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.460 when you think about research that shows that sharing positive 0:13:33.460 --> 0:13:35.299 information with other people is one of the best ways 0:13:35.299 --> 0:13:37.849 that we can connect with them. In this case, actually 0:13:37.849 --> 0:13:42.169 keeping positive information secret is one shortcut way to feeling 0:13:42.169 --> 0:13:47.169 very energised and excited because we're thinking about, um, that 0:13:47.169 --> 0:13:50.159 information and keeping it to ourselves, maybe feeling a bit 0:13:50.159 --> 0:13:53.289 more ownership over it or control, um, over it. So 0:13:53.289 --> 0:13:56.570 that's what we found is the reason that positive secrets 0:13:56.570 --> 0:14:00.289 seem to be quite energising is because those are secrets 0:14:00.289 --> 0:14:03.010 that people tend to choose for their own reasons, as 0:14:03.010 --> 0:14:07.239 opposed to feeling as though they're constrained by the situation 0:14:07.239 --> 0:14:09.718 or other kinds of reasons that they need to keep 0:14:09.719 --> 0:14:13.609 the secret. I think that's a good lesson to take away, actually, um, 0:14:13.729 --> 0:14:16.369 more broadly, even about negative secrets. If we can think 0:14:16.369 --> 0:14:19.929 about why we're keeping them freely for our own reasons 0:14:19.929 --> 0:14:22.409 and for our own benefit, that might be a way 0:14:22.409 --> 0:14:25.090 that we can help to help ourselves feel a little 0:14:25.090 --> 0:14:26.010 bit better about that. 0:14:27.289 --> 0:14:30.690 In a similar line of thinking, are there relationship benefits 0:14:30.690 --> 0:14:33.640 to being the person that other people confide their secrets in? 0:14:34.210 --> 0:14:37.969 Yes, there are benefits and costs. So, um, what we 0:14:37.969 --> 0:14:42.250 know is, uh, sharing information with others is a way 0:14:42.250 --> 0:14:45.130 that we can feel closer to those people. Sharing information 0:14:45.130 --> 0:14:47.890 that other people are not allowed to know is an 0:14:47.890 --> 0:14:50.770 even better way to feel close to people. We feel 0:14:50.770 --> 0:14:53.010 like that's a very intimate relationship, that that's a very 0:14:53.010 --> 0:14:57.020 trusting relationship. The cost comes when we need to keep 0:14:57.020 --> 0:14:59.820 that secret on behalf of somebody else. So we can 0:14:59.820 --> 0:15:03.380 have these pros and cons. When someone divulges a secret 0:15:03.380 --> 0:15:05.419 to us that we need to keep secret, it becomes 0:15:05.419 --> 0:15:08.340 our secret. So it becomes our mental load and something 0:15:08.340 --> 0:15:13.059 that we need to work hard to conceal from other people. So, uh, 0:15:13.099 --> 0:15:15.820 we feel closer to the person, we can also feel 0:15:15.820 --> 0:15:18.250 a bit more burdened by having that information secret. 0:15:18.539 --> 0:15:23.094 Katie, outside of relationship benefits, are there other benefits to 0:15:23.094 --> 0:15:26.335 keeping a secret. And so I'm coming from the world 0:15:26.335 --> 0:15:28.974 of applied psychology, I think of a story a few 0:15:28.974 --> 0:15:31.775 years ago where Chris Hemsworth was in an ad, it 0:15:31.775 --> 0:15:34.335 was touted as this, it was gonna be this new movie, 0:15:34.375 --> 0:15:37.085 this new Crocodile Dundee movie. Turned out it was gonna 0:15:37.085 --> 0:15:39.255 be an ad for Tourism Australia. It was released in 0:15:39.255 --> 0:15:42.494 the Super Bowl. But so many people in the industry 0:15:42.494 --> 0:15:45.335 had to keep that secret for it to work. And 0:15:45.335 --> 0:15:47.864 I think there was this real kind of, that feeling 0:15:47.864 --> 0:15:51.390 of being in on something. and if it had leaked, 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.190 it wouldn't have worked. It would have ruined the surprise. 0:15:53.309 --> 0:15:56.340 So are there other benefits like that that can be 0:15:56.630 --> 0:15:58.909 a motivator to keep secrets? 0:15:59.109 --> 0:16:02.280 Absolutely. And this really gets into the territory of group 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:07.030 secrets or potentially even organisational secrets. And it's not just 0:16:07.030 --> 0:16:09.750 about having a good relationship with the person that you're 0:16:09.750 --> 0:16:14.705 keeping information secret for, it's also having a stronger relationship 0:16:14.705 --> 0:16:16.934 with people who are keeping that secret with you. So, 0:16:16.984 --> 0:16:19.705 if many people are keeping that secret and keeping that 0:16:19.705 --> 0:16:24.215 secret successfully, which is probably an important part to this, then, uh, 0:16:24.265 --> 0:16:26.385 what we've found is that that tends to make people 0:16:26.385 --> 0:16:30.065 feel more identified with other people in their group or 0:16:30.065 --> 0:16:33.424 feel closer to other people who are also successfully enacting 0:16:33.424 --> 0:16:34.784 that secrecy intention. 0:16:36.330 --> 0:16:37.929 Like the secret professor handshake 0:16:38.890 --> 0:16:40.549 Yeah, we're not allowed to talk about that. 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.130 So Katie, are there certain types of people who are 0:16:46.130 --> 0:16:49.369 more likely to be selected as the secret keeper? So 0:16:49.369 --> 0:16:52.049 do we look for certain personality traits, or is it 0:16:52.049 --> 0:16:55.330 more about the relationship elements that we have with those people? 0:16:55.409 --> 0:16:59.239 What do we look for when we're selecting our secret keepers? 0:17:00.119 --> 0:17:02.400 It can be both, um, so certainly we look for 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:04.599 people who we tend to be closer to. Those are 0:17:04.599 --> 0:17:08.119 people that we divulge information to. But there are certain 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.079 personality traits that we look for in people that we 0:17:11.079 --> 0:17:13.909 want to confide in. The first is that we're looking 0:17:13.910 --> 0:17:18.109 for someone empathetic, um, and compassionate, who's going to maybe 0:17:18.109 --> 0:17:20.810 validate our feelings or be able to give us emotional support. 0:17:21.428 --> 0:17:23.558 The second type of person we look for is someone 0:17:23.558 --> 0:17:26.479 who's assertive. So this is someone who's going to maybe 0:17:26.479 --> 0:17:29.598 help us think through the secret in a way that 0:17:29.598 --> 0:17:32.588 we haven't thought about before or maybe even decide what 0:17:32.588 --> 0:17:34.318 to do about that secret and it's really going to 0:17:34.318 --> 0:17:37.239 push us to do something about it. The kinds of 0:17:37.239 --> 0:17:41.558 people we don't confide in are talkative people, someone who's 0:17:41.558 --> 0:17:44.279 maybe in danger of spreading that information far and wide. 0:17:44.540 --> 0:17:47.410 And also polite people. So these are people who might 0:17:47.410 --> 0:17:51.229 say something nice to your face about, um, the situation 0:17:51.229 --> 0:17:54.718 or the secret that you have, but who perhaps underneath 0:17:54.719 --> 0:17:58.160 doesn't really, um, uh, empathise with you to the degree 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.319 that maybe a compassionate person would. 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.400 And how about the personality of secrecy researchers? Is there 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.359 anything special about the personality of you folk who study 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:06.839 these things? 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:08.030 Sticky beaks, I think. 0:18:08.630 --> 0:18:10.349 Absolutely. Very curious people. 0:18:10.719 --> 0:18:14.349 There's that old adage that we study what we Feel right? 0:18:14.469 --> 0:18:16.989 that you're studying secrets because you like secrets? 0:18:17.069 --> 0:18:20.630 Yeah, research is "me-search." I don't know how many secrets 0:18:20.630 --> 0:18:21.439 are you keeping though? 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:22.359 Too many. 0:18:23.319 --> 0:18:26.969 And yet you seem so authentic. So if our listeners 0:18:26.969 --> 0:18:29.849 are sitting there feeling burdened by a secret they're keeping, 0:18:29.890 --> 0:18:31.530 what tips do you have for them in terms of 0:18:31.530 --> 0:18:32.239 how to manage? 0:18:32.650 --> 0:18:36.209 Well, that would depend on what is creating that burden, right? 0:18:36.410 --> 0:18:39.810 So if it's more about, um, that secrets popping into 0:18:39.810 --> 0:18:42.530 their mind time and time and time again. You would 0:18:42.530 --> 0:18:46.359 want to use perhaps more cognitive strategies. So for instance, 0:18:46.410 --> 0:18:48.959 you might want to, uh, think again about those three 0:18:48.959 --> 0:18:52.208 dimensions I was mentioning before, and have a think about 0:18:52.209 --> 0:18:56.719 whether keeping that secret is, um, helpful for a relationship 0:18:57.010 --> 0:19:01.449 or perhaps helpful for a specific goal, or maybe OK 0:19:01.449 --> 0:19:04.089 to be kept secret because it's not really a problem. 0:19:04.130 --> 0:19:07.290 It's not immoral to keep that secret. So I guess 0:19:07.290 --> 0:19:11.319 what I'm suggesting here is to try and, um, reconsider 0:19:11.319 --> 0:19:15.500 or reappraise the reason why or the, um, the goal 0:19:15.500 --> 0:19:18.969 for you to keep that secret. If instead, the problem 0:19:18.969 --> 0:19:22.290 is about concealing the secret and not knowing how to 0:19:22.290 --> 0:19:24.800 do that, then there are a whole range of strategies 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:29.369 to support you with making a decision about how to, um, yeah, 0:19:29.489 --> 0:19:32.699 keep that secret back from others. And of course, then 0:19:32.699 --> 0:19:36.420 there is a last, um, opportunity to consider, which is 0:19:36.420 --> 0:19:38.609 maybe revealing or sharing that secret. 0:19:39.260 --> 0:19:42.399 That's fascinating because there was some old work by James Pennebaker, 0:19:42.420 --> 0:19:45.140 I remember who gave the impression that if just you 0:19:45.140 --> 0:19:48.989 disclosed some secret, there'd be all sorts of well-being benefits, 0:19:49.060 --> 0:19:50.819 but you're saying it's a bit more complicated than that. 0:19:50.939 --> 0:19:54.819 Yeah, absolutely. Because again, linking to what Katie was mentioning before, 0:19:55.060 --> 0:19:57.930 you want to be very, very cautious of who you're 0:19:57.930 --> 0:20:02.250 sharing that information with, right? So that information is perhaps 0:20:02.250 --> 0:20:05.000 completely OK to keep secret because it has a benefit 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:07.979 to do that. And vice versa, if you want to 0:20:07.979 --> 0:20:11.140 consider sharing that information, you want to be very careful 0:20:11.140 --> 0:20:15.739 about who you do it with, uh, what your purpose is. And, um, 0:20:15.900 --> 0:20:19.899 one of the interesting aspects that, um, Jess Salerno and 0:20:19.900 --> 0:20:23.419 Michael Slepian found is that if you share that information 0:20:23.420 --> 0:20:25.968 with someone who has a different moral stance from you, 0:20:26.180 --> 0:20:29.229 it might backfire and they might just try to punish 0:20:29.229 --> 0:20:31.849 you by releasing that information on to others. 0:20:32.510 --> 0:20:35.149 We've talked about if if someone's burdened by a secret 0:20:35.150 --> 0:20:37.339 that they're keeping, and you've sort of touched on this 0:20:37.339 --> 0:20:40.030 a little in that answer, but if someone's got some 0:20:40.030 --> 0:20:42.790 knowledge or behaviour and is feeling burdened by that and 0:20:42.790 --> 0:20:45.430 wants to share it, but obviously, there's a risk in 0:20:45.430 --> 0:20:50.659 sharing sensitive information, what's the trade-off in terms of thinking 0:20:50.660 --> 0:20:54.030 about the pros and cons of revealing a secret to 0:20:54.030 --> 0:20:56.540 someone else from the, from the perspective of the person 0:20:56.540 --> 0:20:59.780 with that information? Does it help them or hurt them 0:20:59.780 --> 0:21:01.275 to share that Information? 0:21:01.635 --> 0:21:04.675 Yeah, so that really would depend, right? Because again, uh, 0:21:04.795 --> 0:21:09.145 that might have some significant cost for your, uh, psychological well-being, 0:21:09.194 --> 0:21:14.395 but also some, uh, significant advantages. Um, so it's really 0:21:14.395 --> 0:21:17.905 the matter of weighing pros and cons, both for yourself 0:21:17.905 --> 0:21:20.505 and for your relationships, as well as perhaps for your 0:21:20.505 --> 0:21:22.265 ultimate goals, maybe professional. 0:21:23.270 --> 0:21:26.530