Carly Godden: This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri people,
Carly Godden: the Woi-Wurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects
Carly Godden: to their elders, past and present, and emerging.
Cassie Hayward: From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University
Cassie Hayward: of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks.
Cassie Hayward: Hi, and welcome to PsychTalks. I'm Associate Professor Cassie Hayward,
Nick Haslam: and I'm Nick Haslam, a professor and social psychologist here
Nick Haslam: at the University of Melbourne's School of Psychological Sciences. Well,
Nick Haslam: today is our very last episode for this series, and
Nick Haslam: we really hope you've enjoyed it.
Cassie Hayward: I know I've learned a lot, especially all the takeaways
Cassie Hayward: that I can use at home. And if you've felt
Cassie Hayward: the same, feel free to leave us a review and
Cassie Hayward: spread the word about this series.
Nick Haslam: OK, so today we're exploring secrets, why we keep them,
Nick Haslam: and what are some of the personal and social costs
Nick Haslam: of keeping things tucked away. To tell us all about it,
Nick Haslam: we're joined by Associate Professor Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi.
Nick Haslam: Thank you so much for talking to us today, Katie
Nick Haslam: and Valentina. So before we get into the research you've
Nick Haslam: been doing, can you tell us, if it's not a secret, uh,
Nick Haslam: how and why you decided to do research on secrecy?
Katie Greenaway: Well, I think, who doesn't want to know about other
Katie Greenaway: people's secrets? They're scintillating, fascinating, exciting to hear about. Um,
Katie Greenaway: but secrets also tell us something really fundamental about human
Katie Greenaway: nature because we're very communicative as a species. We like
Katie Greenaway: to talk to other people and share things with other people.
Katie Greenaway: So why would we ever want to hold things back
Katie Greenaway: in conversation? So the things that we keep to ourselves
Katie Greenaway: actually tells us really, uh, quite a bit about what
Katie Greenaway: people are like and what they're trying to achieve.
Valentina Bianchi: Well, for me, I got very inspired when Kate and
Valentina Bianchi: I talked about what I could focus my PhD on.
Valentina Bianchi: And I found this topic particularly appealing because, as Katie
Valentina Bianchi: was saying, it's quite relatable and it's also very relatable
Valentina Bianchi: to my work as a clinical psychologist. It helped me
Valentina Bianchi: have a bit more of a, um, maybe scientific look
Valentina Bianchi: at how the choices that people make about keeping secrets
Valentina Bianchi: or sharing secrets have an impact on their well-being as
Valentina Bianchi: well as perhaps even their psychopathology.
Cassie Hayward: It is such a fascinating area, but is it hard?
Cassie Hayward: To research just in terms of people feeling comfortable talking
Cassie Hayward: to you about secrets. Do you think, do you think
Cassie Hayward: you have a good idea of how many people keep secrets,
Cassie Hayward: or do you think some people keep that a secret?
Katie Greenaway: Yeah, it's absolutely. It's a really important question when you're
Katie Greenaway: studying these things. How do you get people to tell
Katie Greenaway: you about their innermost secrets? Fortunately for us, it turns
Katie Greenaway: out that the vast majority of people are keeping a
Katie Greenaway: secret at any given time. In fact, 97% of people That's, uh,
Katie Greenaway: certainly almost all of us in this room, uh, are
Katie Greenaway: keeping a secret right now. And on average people keep
Katie Greenaway: between 10 and 13 secrets at any given time. So
Katie Greenaway: how we ask about this is not by asking people
Katie Greenaway: to divulge the information in their secrets, but we give them, uh,
Katie Greenaway: the common secrets questionnaire, which is a validated, um, scientific
Katie Greenaway: measure of 38 common things that people keep secret. And
Katie Greenaway: we asked them to indicate which of those categories of
Katie Greenaway: information they're currently keeping secret from one person, uh, multiple
Katie Greenaway: people or even everybody in their lives. So if people
Katie Greenaway: listening are interested in finding out how many secrets they're keeping,
Katie Greenaway: they can go to keepingsecrets.org and take the common secrets
Katie Greenaway: questionnaire themselves.
Cassie Hayward: And from that, do you have an idea of what
Cassie Hayward: types of things people are most likely to keep secret?
Katie Greenaway: Yeah, these 38 common categories, I like to group them
Katie Greenaway: into maybe 3 broad different groups. The first is secrets
Katie Greenaway: that involve other people or about other people. These could
Katie Greenaway: be the classic infidelity or even having extramarital thoughts. Um,
Katie Greenaway: it could be having lied to someone or potentially even
Katie Greenaway: harming someone, having relationship issues with another person. The second
Katie Greenaway: category is pieces of information about ourselves, things like sexual behaviour,
Katie Greenaway: a personal history that we don't want others to know about, um,
Katie Greenaway: feeling discontented at work or in a physical appearance or
Katie Greenaway: in our social relationships, um, mental health or, um, potentially
Katie Greenaway: sexual orientation, even our own beliefs or, um, who we
Katie Greenaway: intend to vote for. And the third category of secrets,
Katie Greenaway: which is a really interesting one, is positive secrets. So
Katie Greenaway: these are things that we actually maybe feel quite good
Katie Greenaway: about but for various reasons are keeping from other people, um,
Katie Greenaway: at this time, they might be, um, an upcoming, uh, uh,
Katie Greenaway: pregnancy announcement, um, an intention to propose marriage to someone,
Katie Greenaway: a surprise or a piece of good news that we
Katie Greenaway: haven't shared with others. So we keep a lot of
Katie Greenaway: different things secret from others.
Nick Haslam: So we've talked in a different episode of PsychTalks about
Nick Haslam: the mental load, and this seems like a different sort of, uh,
Nick Haslam: mental load. Uh, I, I'm sure it's hard for secret
Nick Haslam: keepers to keep secrets, and I, I don't mean just
Nick Haslam: in terms of the desire to blab to someone else,
Nick Haslam: but does it take some sort of toll on people
Nick Haslam: having to keep it a secret?
Katie Greenaway: It absolutely does. And what I think is interesting about
Katie Greenaway: secrecy is it's not actually the times that we have
Katie Greenaway: to hold information back in conversation that's challenging. It's the
Katie Greenaway: times when we're alone and we're thinking about that secret
Katie Greenaway: and it returns to our mind that's really the thing
Katie Greenaway: that we find the most challenging. And this makes sense
Katie Greenaway: if you think about it, when we conceal information from
Katie Greenaway: other people, those tend to be situations that we plan for,
Katie Greenaway: we prepare for, we imagine what we might say, and
Katie Greenaway: we maybe come up with strategies to help us navigate
Katie Greenaway: that particular conversation.
Katie Greenaway: But we have many, many other times when we're not
Katie Greenaway: talking to other people that our minds are free to
Katie Greenaway: think about pretty much anything. And one thing that our
Katie Greenaway: minds really seem to return to over and over again
Katie Greenaway: is information that we're keeping secret from others. Maybe we're
Katie Greenaway: trying to problem solve that, or we're thinking about what
Katie Greenaway: that means for us, and this kind of mental toll
Katie Greenaway: seems to be what is most burdensome about secrecy.
Nick Haslam: So do we know how often people think about those
Nick Haslam: secrets they've stored away?
Katie Greenaway: Yes, much more than they have to conceal those secrets
Katie Greenaway: in conversation. It's usually around about, um, at least 2
Katie Greenaway: to 1 or even, um, sometimes 1 to 3 that
Katie Greenaway: we would be thinking about our secrets more than needing
Katie Greenaway: to conceal those secrets from other people in everyday life.
Nick Haslam: So do we know how many times people think about
Nick Haslam: their secrets?
Valentina Bianchi: We do, actually. So Katie and I, with, uh, a
Valentina Bianchi: couple of colleagues of ours, um, Elise and Michael have
Valentina Bianchi: recently introduced a new way of exploring secrecy in everyday life.
Valentina Bianchi: So we have found a way of asking people multiple
Valentina Bianchi: times a day for many days. So sometimes even a
Valentina Bianchi: week or two weeks, how often they engage in these processes.
Valentina Bianchi: And what we found was perhaps a bit surprising. People
Valentina Bianchi: think about the secrets approximately 30 times per week, and
Valentina Bianchi: only half the times they are required to, uh, conceal
Valentina Bianchi: their secrets. So what I'm trying to say here is
Valentina Bianchi: that secrets are much more on our mind than they
Valentina Bianchi: are on our lips.
Nick Haslam: And it's not just because people can't repress, it's because
Nick Haslam: they're actively thinking about things related to it and maybe
Nick Haslam: solving problems.
Katie Greenaway: Yeah, and that kind of mental, uh, arithmetic can take
Katie Greenaway: a lot of different forms. Sometimes it can be more
Katie Greenaway: productive than others. Maybe we're problem solving, maybe we're thinking
Katie Greenaway: through different ways that we can reinterpret or think about
Katie Greenaway: this information. In fact, what some of our research shows
Katie Greenaway: is that people actually quite like thinking about their secrets,
Katie Greenaway: which might seem a little bit strange, but this is
Katie Greenaway: really important information to us. We tend to engage with
Katie Greenaway: thoughts of those secrets more than we suppress thoughts of
Katie Greenaway: those secrets. But of course, the more you think about
Katie Greenaway: something without coming to a resolution, the more that that
Katie Greenaway: information may come to mind over time. And if we
Katie Greenaway: start to feel negative about that, if we start to
Katie Greenaway: feel like we can't actually see a way through, that
Katie Greenaway: tends to be when thinking about secrets takes a toll.
Cassie Hayward: And just thinking about this kind of rumination on the secrets,
Cassie Hayward: there's a lot of talk these days about people being
Cassie Hayward: their authentic selves. Does keeping secrets mess around with that,
Cassie Hayward: in that we can't really be authentic if we're storing
Cassie Hayward: away all these things that we can't talk about or
Cassie Hayward: thinking about these things that we can't talk about? Does
Cassie Hayward: that have a toll on people?
Valentina Bianchi: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, that's, uh, only one of the many
Valentina Bianchi: ways in which secrets can be, uh, harmful for us
Valentina Bianchi: and taking a toll, both on a personal level and
Valentina Bianchi: on a relational level. If you think about it, it
Valentina Bianchi: kind of makes sense, right? Because if you are holding
Valentina Bianchi: back some information from others, you know that you're concealing
Valentina Bianchi: a part of you from other people. And in that sense,
Valentina Bianchi: you're not being your true authentic self. So you, of course, you,
Valentina Bianchi: you're gonna end up feeling inauthentic. And with that, we'll
Valentina Bianchi: also go a whole range of other feelings, feeling negative
Valentina Bianchi: about yourself, for example, low or maybe anxious. And on
Valentina Bianchi: top of that, as I was mentioning, there are some
Valentina Bianchi: very important relational costs that come with holding information back.
Valentina Bianchi: You don't get to get the support from others, you
Valentina Bianchi: get to end up feeling quite isolated. So yes, authenticity
Valentina Bianchi: is a cost and there are many other costs associated
Valentina Bianchi: with secrecy.
Cassie Hayward: Are there any other harms of keeping secrets?
Katie Greenaway: Yeah, we've sort of alluded to the fact that many
Katie Greenaway: secrets that we keep, um, involve quite negative information and
Katie Greenaway: that goes hand in hand with a variety of, uh,
Katie Greenaway: negative emotions that we might experience. You might think that, um,
Katie Greenaway: people only ever feel guilt or shame about their secrets,
Katie Greenaway: but what our research shows is that people feel a
Katie Greenaway: wide variety of emotions about their secrets. Not always negative,
Katie Greenaway: sometimes positive, sometimes people might feel relief, for example, that
Katie Greenaway: they didn't have to, um, conceal information from others or, uh,
Katie Greenaway: sometimes they can actually feel quite relaxed about their secrets
Katie Greenaway: when not in a context where they need to divulge
Katie Greenaway: that information from others. But of course, the majority of
Katie Greenaway: emotions that we feel about negatively toned secrets are negative
Katie Greenaway: in nature, things like anxiety, sadness, um, also guilt and shame,
Katie Greenaway: but certainly embarrassment, um, and these kinds of negative emotions
Katie Greenaway: tend to be more commonly experienced in relation to secrecy
Katie Greenaway: than to positive emotions.
Nick Haslam: And are there certain types of secrets that are more
Nick Haslam: harmful than others, um, either in terms of the impact
Nick Haslam: on the person keeping the secret, uh, but also the
Nick Haslam: impact if they were to reveal that secret?
Valentina Bianchi: Yeah, that's a very great question that I think has
Valentina Bianchi: been very well addressed by some, uh, research by, uh,
Valentina Bianchi: Michael Slepian and Alex Koch. Uh, they, um, recently, um,
Valentina Bianchi: published a paper where they use the, uh, data-driven approach
Valentina Bianchi: and they examined hundreds of, uh, actually thousands of, uh,
Valentina Bianchi: real life secrets. And they asked hundreds of people to
Valentina Bianchi: read them along 3 different dimensions. So we now know
Valentina Bianchi: that it's a little bit less about the actual, uh,
Valentina Bianchi: idiosyncratic content of secrets. And it's much more about, uh,
Valentina Bianchi: this dimension that are then linked to secrets caused and, uh, harm.
Valentina Bianchi: And these dimensions are 3. So one is how immoral
Valentina Bianchi: the secret is. So if you think about that, if
Valentina Bianchi: you consider your secret as highly immoral, you are more
Valentina Bianchi: likely to experience shame about it. The second, uh, dimension
Valentina Bianchi: is how relational the secret is. So if a secret
Valentina Bianchi: is helpful in that you are protecting someone else or
Valentina Bianchi: protecting your relationship, that's good for you, right? But if
Valentina Bianchi: on the other hand, you know that this secret is
Valentina Bianchi: drawing a gap between you and other people, it's going
Valentina Bianchi: to lead you to feel quite disconnected and socially isolated.
Valentina Bianchi: And then the third dimension is how much of a
Valentina Bianchi: clear goal you have about holding these secrets. This is,
Valentina Bianchi: for example, the case of professional secrets. So if you
Valentina Bianchi: have a clear goal and objective, then you might feel
Valentina Bianchi: quite certain about what you're doing there, vice versa, if
Valentina Bianchi: you don't have that, you're gonna feel quite uncertain and
Valentina Bianchi: that will lead to psychological harm.
Cassie Hayward: I think those elements of secrets are really helpful for
Cassie Hayward: people to think about the different types of secrets, because
Cassie Hayward: I think when we think secrets, we automatically think of
Cassie Hayward: bad things that have happened that we're keeping secret, and
Cassie Hayward: people wouldn't, you wouldn't want people to know because of
Cassie Hayward: the shame or the guilt or the morality that you've mentioned. But, um,
Cassie Hayward: not all secrets are bad, and just from my perspective,
Cassie Hayward: so when my husband and I got married, it was
Cassie Hayward: a secret. We didn't tell anyone. And when we had kids,
Cassie Hayward: like many parents, we don't tell anyone that we're pregnant
Cassie Hayward: for a while, so they were all associated with very happy,
Cassie Hayward: joyous things that we were just keeping secret for certain reasons.
Cassie Hayward: But is, is there a different experience of the secret
Cassie Hayward: keeper when it's a positive secret, as opposed to a
Cassie Hayward: negative or a moral or shameful?
Katie Greenaway: There absolutely is, and I think that people can think
Katie Greenaway: about this intuitively in their own lives. Certainly positive information
Katie Greenaway: that we keep secret, maybe that we're holding back to
Katie Greenaway: reveal at the right time or in the right way,
Katie Greenaway: we can actually feel quite good about and excited about it,
Katie Greenaway: can heighten the anticipation before revealing that to others. So
Katie Greenaway: that is what we've found, whereas negatively toned secrets tend
Katie Greenaway: to make us feel bad, um, the more that our
Katie Greenaway: minds return to them and that we ruminate about them
Katie Greenaway: over time. Whereas positive secrets are actually ones that we
Katie Greenaway: seem to feel good about, which is kind of ironic
Katie Greenaway: when you think about research that shows that sharing positive
Katie Greenaway: information with other people is one of the best ways
Katie Greenaway: that we can connect with them. In this case, actually
Katie Greenaway: keeping positive information secret is one shortcut way to feeling
Katie Greenaway: very energised and excited because we're thinking about, um, that
Katie Greenaway: information and keeping it to ourselves, maybe feeling a bit
Katie Greenaway: more ownership over it or control, um, over it. So
Katie Greenaway: that's what we found is the reason that positive secrets
Katie Greenaway: seem to be quite energising is because those are secrets
Katie Greenaway: that people tend to choose for their own reasons, as
Katie Greenaway: opposed to feeling as though they're constrained by the situation
Katie Greenaway: or other kinds of reasons that they need to keep
Katie Greenaway: the secret. I think that's a good lesson to take away, actually, um,
Katie Greenaway: more broadly, even about negative secrets. If we can think
Katie Greenaway: about why we're keeping them freely for our own reasons
Katie Greenaway: and for our own benefit, that might be a way
Katie Greenaway: that we can help to help ourselves feel a little
Katie Greenaway: bit better about that.
Nick Haslam: In a similar line of thinking, are there relationship benefits
Nick Haslam: to being the person that other people confide their secrets in?
Katie Greenaway: Yes, there are benefits and costs. So, um, what we
Katie Greenaway: know is, uh, sharing information with others is a way
Katie Greenaway: that we can feel closer to those people. Sharing information
Katie Greenaway: that other people are not allowed to know is an
Katie Greenaway: even better way to feel close to people. We feel
Katie Greenaway: like that's a very intimate relationship, that that's a very
Katie Greenaway: trusting relationship. The cost comes when we need to keep
Katie Greenaway: that secret on behalf of somebody else. So we can
Katie Greenaway: have these pros and cons. When someone divulges a secret
Katie Greenaway: to us that we need to keep secret, it becomes
Katie Greenaway: our secret. So it becomes our mental load and something
Katie Greenaway: that we need to work hard to conceal from other people. So, uh,
Katie Greenaway: we feel closer to the person, we can also feel
Katie Greenaway: a bit more burdened by having that information secret.
Cassie Hayward: Katie, outside of relationship benefits, are there other benefits to
Cassie Hayward: keeping a secret. And so I'm coming from the world
Cassie Hayward: of applied psychology, I think of a story a few
Cassie Hayward: years ago where Chris Hemsworth was in an ad, it
Cassie Hayward: was touted as this, it was gonna be this new movie,
Cassie Hayward: this new Crocodile Dundee movie. Turned out it was gonna
Cassie Hayward: be an ad for Tourism Australia. It was released in
Cassie Hayward: the Super Bowl. But so many people in the industry
Cassie Hayward: had to keep that secret for it to work. And
Cassie Hayward: I think there was this real kind of, that feeling
Cassie Hayward: of being in on something. and if it had leaked,
Cassie Hayward: it wouldn't have worked. It would have ruined the surprise.
Cassie Hayward: So are there other benefits like that that can be
Cassie Hayward: a motivator to keep secrets?
Katie Greenaway: Absolutely. And this really gets into the territory of group
Katie Greenaway: secrets or potentially even organisational secrets. And it's not just
Katie Greenaway: about having a good relationship with the person that you're
Katie Greenaway: keeping information secret for, it's also having a stronger relationship
Katie Greenaway: with people who are keeping that secret with you. So,
Katie Greenaway: if many people are keeping that secret and keeping that
Katie Greenaway: secret successfully, which is probably an important part to this, then, uh,
Katie Greenaway: what we've found is that that tends to make people
Katie Greenaway: feel more identified with other people in their group or
Katie Greenaway: feel closer to other people who are also successfully enacting
Katie Greenaway: that secrecy intention.
Nick Haslam: Like the secret professor handshake
Katie Greenaway: Yeah, we're not allowed to talk about that.
Cassie Hayward: So Katie, are there certain types of people who are
Cassie Hayward: more likely to be selected as the secret keeper? So
Cassie Hayward: do we look for certain personality traits, or is it
Cassie Hayward: more about the relationship elements that we have with those people?
Cassie Hayward: What do we look for when we're selecting our secret keepers?
Katie Greenaway: It can be both, um, so certainly we look for
Katie Greenaway: people who we tend to be closer to. Those are
Katie Greenaway: people that we divulge information to. But there are certain
Katie Greenaway: personality traits that we look for in people that we
Katie Greenaway: want to confide in. The first is that we're looking
Katie Greenaway: for someone empathetic, um, and compassionate, who's going to maybe
Katie Greenaway: validate our feelings or be able to give us emotional support.
Katie Greenaway: The second type of person we look for is someone
Katie Greenaway: who's assertive. So this is someone who's going to maybe
Katie Greenaway: help us think through the secret in a way that
Katie Greenaway: we haven't thought about before or maybe even decide what
Katie Greenaway: to do about that secret and it's really going to
Katie Greenaway: push us to do something about it. The kinds of
Katie Greenaway: people we don't confide in are talkative people, someone who's
Katie Greenaway: maybe in danger of spreading that information far and wide.
Katie Greenaway: And also polite people. So these are people who might
Katie Greenaway: say something nice to your face about, um, the situation
Katie Greenaway: or the secret that you have, but who perhaps underneath
Katie Greenaway: doesn't really, um, uh, empathise with you to the degree
Katie Greenaway: that maybe a compassionate person would.
Nick Haslam: And how about the personality of secrecy researchers? Is there
Nick Haslam: anything special about the personality of you folk who study
Nick Haslam: these things?
Katie Greenaway: Sticky beaks, I think.
Valentina Bianchi: Absolutely. Very curious people.
Katie Greenaway: There's that old adage that we study what we Feel right?
Katie Greenaway: that you're studying secrets because you like secrets?
Katie Greenaway: Yeah, research is "me-search." I don't know how many secrets
Katie Greenaway: are you keeping though?
Valentina Bianchi: Too many.
Nick Haslam: And yet you seem so authentic. So if our listeners
Nick Haslam: are sitting there feeling burdened by a secret they're keeping,
Nick Haslam: what tips do you have for them in terms of
Nick Haslam: how to manage?
Valentina Bianchi: Well, that would depend on what is creating that burden, right?
Valentina Bianchi: So if it's more about, um, that secrets popping into
Valentina Bianchi: their mind time and time and time again. You would
Valentina Bianchi: want to use perhaps more cognitive strategies. So for instance,
Valentina Bianchi: you might want to, uh, think again about those three
Valentina Bianchi: dimensions I was mentioning before, and have a think about
Valentina Bianchi: whether keeping that secret is, um, helpful for a relationship
Valentina Bianchi: or perhaps helpful for a specific goal, or maybe OK
Valentina Bianchi: to be kept secret because it's not really a problem.
Valentina Bianchi: It's not immoral to keep that secret. So I guess
Valentina Bianchi: what I'm suggesting here is to try and, um, reconsider
Valentina Bianchi: or reappraise the reason why or the, um, the goal
Valentina Bianchi: for you to keep that secret. If instead, the problem
Valentina Bianchi: is about concealing the secret and not knowing how to
Valentina Bianchi: do that, then there are a whole range of strategies
Valentina Bianchi: to support you with making a decision about how to, um, yeah,
Valentina Bianchi: keep that secret back from others. And of course, then
Valentina Bianchi: there is a last, um, opportunity to consider, which is
Valentina Bianchi: maybe revealing or sharing that secret.
Nick Haslam: That's fascinating because there was some old work by James Pennebaker,
Nick Haslam: I remember who gave the impression that if just you
Nick Haslam: disclosed some secret, there'd be all sorts of well-being benefits,
Nick Haslam: but you're saying it's a bit more complicated than that.
Valentina Bianchi: Yeah, absolutely. Because again, linking to what Katie was mentioning before,
Valentina Bianchi: you want to be very, very cautious of who you're
Valentina Bianchi: sharing that information with, right? So that information is perhaps
Valentina Bianchi: completely OK to keep secret because it has a benefit
Valentina Bianchi: to do that. And vice versa, if you want to
Valentina Bianchi: consider sharing that information, you want to be very careful
Valentina Bianchi: about who you do it with, uh, what your purpose is. And, um,
Valentina Bianchi: one of the interesting aspects that, um, Jess Salerno and
Valentina Bianchi: Michael Slepian found is that if you share that information
Valentina Bianchi: with someone who has a different moral stance from you,
Valentina Bianchi: it might backfire and they might just try to punish
Valentina Bianchi: you by releasing that information on to others.
Cassie Hayward: We've talked about if if someone's burdened by a secret
Cassie Hayward: that they're keeping, and you've sort of touched on this
Cassie Hayward: a little in that answer, but if someone's got some
Cassie Hayward: knowledge or behaviour and is feeling burdened by that and
Cassie Hayward: wants to share it, but obviously, there's a risk in
Cassie Hayward: sharing sensitive information, what's the trade-off in terms of thinking
Cassie Hayward: about the pros and cons of revealing a secret to
Cassie Hayward: someone else from the, from the perspective of the person
Cassie Hayward: with that information? Does it help them or hurt them
Cassie Hayward: to share that Information?
Valentina Bianchi: Yeah, so that really would depend, right? Because again, uh,
Valentina Bianchi: that might have some significant cost for your, uh, psychological well-being,
Valentina Bianchi: but also some, uh, significant advantages. Um, so it's really
Valentina Bianchi: the matter of weighing pros and cons, both for yourself
Valentina Bianchi: and for your relationships, as well as perhaps for your
Valentina Bianchi: ultimate goals, maybe professional.
Nick Haslam: So Valentina, as you said, you're a clinical psychologist, how
Nick Haslam: does secrecy figure in your own work? I mean, I know. Uh,
Nick Haslam: often clients, patients will be keeping secrets from their therapist
Nick Haslam: at the start, and there are probably some things you
Nick Haslam: have to keep secret from them as well. How does
Nick Haslam: this all play out in the clinic?
Valentina Bianchi: Yeah, absolutely. So it's a quite fascinating dynamic, I think,
Valentina Bianchi: building a rapport with a client, gaining that trust, and, uh,
Valentina Bianchi: also showing compassion. I think it's, uh, very crucial to
Valentina Bianchi: make people comfortable enough to open up. Uh, in fact,
Valentina Bianchi: I've incorporated in my clinical practice now, now at the
Valentina Bianchi: beginning of, uh, my initial sessions, uh, a very clear
Valentina Bianchi: overt expectations that people will not maybe feel comfortable opening
Valentina Bianchi: up immediately about maybe the true reasons why they are
Valentina Bianchi: seeking out my support, and that's completely OK. And I
Valentina Bianchi: think that approach is really helpful in letting the anxiety
Valentina Bianchi: go down, letting uh the client um sit with their
Valentina Bianchi: own information and make a um paced decision about when
Valentina Bianchi: and if they're comfortable enough with opening up with me.
Valentina Bianchi: And then as you touched on, on the other side, unfortunately,
Valentina Bianchi: I do have to keep a lot of personal information secret, uh,
Valentina Bianchi: and confidential, and that can be quite burdening for clinical
Valentina Bianchi: psychologists in general. So we have structures in place, like,
Valentina Bianchi: for example, um, peer supervisions and group supervisions. But that
Valentina Bianchi: can really be, uh, one of the things that takes
Valentina Bianchi: a toll on, um, clinical psychologists and also other professions.
Valentina Bianchi: For example, lawyers, doctors, and so on. So something to
Valentina Bianchi: keep in mind in terms of, um, professional well-being as well.
Nick Haslam: So I mean this is really interesting because there is
Nick Haslam: social pressure to reciprocate disclosure, right? And so if you're
Nick Haslam: in a clinic setting and uh your patient is disclosing
Nick Haslam: all sorts of things to you, it must be hard
Nick Haslam: not to do somewhat similar to them.
Valentina Bianchi: Yeah, absolutely. So, very recently, for instance, I've had situations
Valentina Bianchi: where people have opened up about, uh, having lost people
Valentina Bianchi: in their life. And, uh, I also have lost someone
Valentina Bianchi: recently in my life. And unfortunately, it's just, perhaps the,
Valentina Bianchi: the information cannot be shared. But the compassion and the
Valentina Bianchi: emotional understanding can definitely support people in creating that connection
Valentina Bianchi: with their clients. So perhaps the way I think about
Valentina Bianchi: it and, uh, make peace with it is that I'm
Valentina Bianchi: supporting them, even though I don't share as much of
Valentina Bianchi: my information. I support them through my heart and through
Valentina Bianchi: my compassion.
Nick Haslam: And at a really big abstract level, is mental health
Nick Haslam: all about having no secrets at all? What's the goal
Nick Haslam: for treatment?
Valentina Bianchi: Look, I definitely wouldn't say that. And that's because realistically, um,
Valentina Bianchi: sometimes it's the best thing to keep a secret. For instance,
Valentina Bianchi: I'm talking about maybe, uh, personal information or family secrets
Valentina Bianchi: that are best kept because they would have such a
Valentina Bianchi: huge repercussion on people's life, on people's, uh, relationships, on
Valentina Bianchi: people's ability to, for example, to work in certain environments.
Valentina Bianchi: So what I'm saying here is that disclosure is not
Valentina Bianchi: always the best choice.
Katie Greenaway: Yeah, it's not our business as researchers or clinicians to
Katie Greenaway: tell people they should never keep any secrets. We're more
Katie Greenaway: in the business of helping them understand what are the
Katie Greenaway: pros and cons of doing that and how can they
Katie Greenaway: best keep a secret if that's the right thing for them.
Nick Haslam: That's OK. Uh, the thing to look out for is
Nick Haslam: when the secret's weighing on us, uh, more than usual
Nick Haslam: or causing us harm in our daily life, and I
Nick Haslam: think our listeners will be very grateful for all these
Nick Haslam: insights and advice. Thanks for joining us on PsychTalks.
Katie Greenaway: Thank you.
Valentina Bianchi: Thank you.
Cassie Hayward: Nick, can you believe it? That was the last episode
Cassie Hayward: of the series.
Nick Haslam: Hard to believe, Cassie, but it's been a real pleasure.
Cassie Hayward: It really has, and for anyone who wants to listen
Cassie Hayward: to any of our other episodes, you can find them
Cassie Hayward: in the back catalogue of your podcast app. You've been
Cassie Hayward: listening to PsychTalks with me, Cassie Hayward, and Nick Haslam.
Cassie Hayward: We'd like to thank our guests for today, Associate Professor
Cassie Hayward: Katie Greenaway and Valentina Bianchi. This episode was produced by
Cassie Hayward: Carly Godden with production assistance from Mairead Murray and Gemma Papprill.
Cassie Hayward: Our sound engineer was Jack Palmer.