WEBVTT - Can self-compassion help us better navigate menopause? 0:00:00.009 --> 0:00:02.990 This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri people, 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:06.109 the Woi Wurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay 0:00:06.110 --> 0:00:09.238 respects to their elders, past and present, and emerging. 0:00:14.550 --> 0:00:17.870 From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University 0:00:17.870 --> 0:00:20.350 of Melbourne, this is PsychTalks. 0:00:22.139 --> 0:00:26.030 Welcome again to PsychTalks. I'm Cassie Hayward, and I'm here 0:00:26.030 --> 0:00:29.409 ready to explore the latest research in psychology and neuroscience 0:00:29.409 --> 0:00:31.280 with my co-host, Nick Haslam. 0:00:31.409 --> 0:00:34.330 Hi, Cassie, great to be back here again. Today we're 0:00:34.330 --> 0:00:38.409 exploring something that affects about half the population, menopause. We're 0:00:38.409 --> 0:00:41.240 joined by Dr Lydia Brown, a senior lecturer in our school, 0:00:41.369 --> 0:00:43.970 who's done some incredible research on the role that self-compassion 0:00:43.970 --> 0:00:47.318 can play in enhancing mental health during this often tricky time. 0:00:52.909 --> 0:00:55.220 Welcome to the podcast, Lydia. Great to have you with us. 0:00:55.349 --> 0:00:56.819 Thanks, Nick. It's great to be here. 0:00:57.119 --> 0:00:59.430 So, our main focus today is on your work on 0:00:59.430 --> 0:01:02.389 self-compassion in relation to menopause. Um, but can we start 0:01:02.389 --> 0:01:05.760 with just some quick definitions? What is menopause and what 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:06.869 is perimenopause? 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.709 Sure. So, menopause is really a day in a woman's 0:01:09.709 --> 0:01:13.669 life when she stops having menstrual periods, um, but you 0:01:13.669 --> 0:01:15.550 never know when your last period is going to be, 0:01:15.843 --> 0:01:20.712 usually, unless you have, um, surgery, surgical menopause. Um, so 0:01:20.712 --> 0:01:24.602 it tends to be, or is defined retrospectively after 12 0:01:24.602 --> 0:01:27.362 months of not having a period, then you're, um, known 0:01:27.362 --> 0:01:30.523 to be post-menopausal. But in the lead up to your 0:01:30.523 --> 0:01:34.953 final period, your menstrual cycles typically become less regular. And 0:01:34.953 --> 0:01:38.483 in that period where your menstrual cycles are not regular, 0:01:38.926 --> 0:01:42.255 Um, that would be the perimenopause. Um, of course, for 0:01:42.255 --> 0:01:45.176 some women throughout their life, they don't have regular periods. 0:01:45.194 --> 0:01:47.456 And so there are a lot of groups that you 0:01:47.456 --> 0:01:52.706 can't actually define, uh, menopausal stage very well because of, 0:01:52.896 --> 0:01:57.655 for that reason, for instance, or if you're taking hormone contraceptives, 0:01:57.856 --> 0:02:00.856 then some people may not know exactly what menopausal stage 0:02:00.856 --> 0:02:01.416 they are in. 0:02:01.949 --> 0:02:06.379 But perimenopause is traditionally for most people, that time, um, 0:02:06.510 --> 0:02:09.190 leading up to the final menstrual period. On average, it 0:02:09.190 --> 0:02:12.418 lasts 4 years, but it very much varies between women. 0:02:12.830 --> 0:02:15.630 And menopausal symptoms, which we can talk about as we 0:02:15.630 --> 0:02:18.699 go on, they last for a longer period of time. 0:02:18.949 --> 0:02:23.109 So women typically have menopausal symptoms during perimenopause and also 0:02:23.110 --> 0:02:24.679 in the early post menopause. 0:02:25.899 --> 0:02:28.089 And Lydia, I'm a lot older than you, so my 0:02:28.089 --> 0:02:31.880 social media feed is full of perimenopause and menopause content 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.199 these days. It certainly seems to be having a boom 0:02:34.570 --> 0:02:39.288 in social media and podcast, um, areas. But is it 0:02:39.288 --> 0:02:43.279 correct that it hasn't really received much scientific research until 0:02:43.279 --> 0:02:44.160 very recently? 0:02:44.369 --> 0:02:48.300 Absolutely not. So when I started a PhD on menopause, 0:02:48.529 --> 0:02:51.970 I think that was back in 2009, and really at 0:02:51.970 --> 0:02:55.570 that time, it was very much a niche area of medicine. 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.059 Um, I found it a really fascinating area, but I 0:02:59.059 --> 0:03:01.339 was told by a few people, it's going to be 0:03:01.339 --> 0:03:05.059 really hard to carve out a research career in menopause. Um, 0:03:05.070 --> 0:03:08.570 I was recommended to shift topics to a more supposedly 0:03:08.860 --> 0:03:12.538 mainstream topic like dementia or diabetes. They said it's just 0:03:12.538 --> 0:03:14.460 gonna be hard to get grant money 0:03:14.758 --> 0:03:18.320 to look at menopause and mental health research. So that 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.478 was only 10 years ago. Now, we're very much trying 0:03:21.479 --> 0:03:25.399 to play catch up. So in research, in policy, uh, 0:03:25.479 --> 0:03:29.809 in medical practise, there has been this big, um, uptick 0:03:29.809 --> 0:03:32.720 in interest about menopause, but we don't have that kind 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:33.149 of 0:03:33.479 --> 0:03:39.369 um, research, high quality research from decades previously. So that's 0:03:39.369 --> 0:03:41.520 posing a little bit of a problem. So it's great 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.639 we're getting the newfound interest, but we haven't traditionally had 0:03:44.639 --> 0:03:45.589 it at all. 0:03:45.839 --> 0:03:47.960 I mean, one of the really interesting aspects of it 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.759 is not just the menopause itself, but also the mental 0:03:50.759 --> 0:03:53.350 health implications. And that's an area that's getting a lot 0:03:53.350 --> 0:03:54.800 more attention now too, right? 0:03:55.039 --> 0:03:55.970 Yeah. So, 0:03:56.479 --> 0:04:00.679 menopause is sort of, since it's been a medical, uh, topic, 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.440 since it's been viewed as an area of medicine, we've 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:08.550 always thought that psychological symptoms are a part of the menopause. 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.470 And so if you look at menopause symptom rating scales, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.949 they tend to have some physical symptoms like hot flushes, 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.320 night sweats, um, that could be joint pain. 0:04:18.799 --> 0:04:23.640 Um, skin changes, and then they, they typically are the, 0:04:23.670 --> 0:04:27.799 the mental health symptoms as well on those menopause symptom lists. 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.149 So it, it's always been thought that mental ill health 0:04:31.149 --> 0:04:32.950 is a part of the menopause. 0:04:33.190 --> 0:04:35.769 I gather you wrote a sort of big review paper 0:04:35.769 --> 0:04:39.149 in The Lancet last year and you, I think, reviewed 0:04:39.149 --> 0:04:41.279 some of that evidence. I mean, can you summarise what 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:41.880 you found there? 0:04:42.769 --> 0:04:47.769 Sure. So, I am very interested in aggregating data from 0:04:47.769 --> 0:04:51.049 across different studies. So that is in the form of 0:04:51.049 --> 0:04:54.649 a meta-analysis or a systematic review. And it's a really 0:04:54.649 --> 0:04:58.859 powerful kind of research or methodology because you can integrate 0:04:58.859 --> 0:05:02.209 data from around the world to really understand at a 0:05:02.209 --> 0:05:03.609 higher level what's going on. 0:05:04.109 --> 0:05:07.109 So when we were in the development stage for this work, 0:05:07.559 --> 0:05:11.480 we decided to focus just on prospective studies. So these 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.000 are studies that look at women at baseline before they 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:19.959 go through the perimenopause and the menopause transition, um, and 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.640 to follow them up over time to look at changes 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.920 in mental health symptoms and disorders. 0:05:26.390 --> 0:05:30.988 So we limited our, our search to that, and we 0:05:30.988 --> 0:05:36.679 found that the relationship between depression and menopause is not 0:05:36.678 --> 0:05:40.950 necessarily as strong as previously thought. So, there wasn't a 0:05:40.950 --> 0:05:46.670 huge uptick in prevalence of depressive symptoms over perimenopause. And likewise, 0:05:46.850 --> 0:05:49.750 diagnosis of, uh, major depressive disorder. 0:05:50.260 --> 0:05:56.299 Um, from our review of currently available evidence, um, we 0:05:56.299 --> 0:05:59.140 found that those women who have a prior history of 0:05:59.140 --> 0:06:02.940 depression may be at risk of relapse at that time, um, 0:06:03.059 --> 0:06:07.260 but there wasn't sufficient evidence to suggest, uh, new onset 0:06:07.260 --> 0:06:09.549 depressive disorder over the perimenopause. 0:06:09.700 --> 0:06:10.690 Did that surprise you? 0:06:11.059 --> 0:06:12.299 It really surprised me. 0:06:13.500 --> 0:06:16.059 What about anxiety? So I think another common thing you'd 0:06:16.059 --> 0:06:18.880 say is people would report feelings of anxious or jittery 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.450 or distressed in a non-depressive sort of way during that time. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:23.850 Was there evidence of that as well? 0:06:24.178 --> 0:06:24.419 So, 0:06:24.459 --> 0:06:28.649 anxiety is a really common, um, symptom that women report. 0:06:28.779 --> 0:06:34.899 They might report feeling irritable, they might report feeling, um, more, um, 0:06:35.019 --> 0:06:38.178 like things that didn't bother them before are suddenly starting 0:06:38.178 --> 0:06:38.820 to bother them. 0:06:39.170 --> 0:06:42.510 Um, and linked to the irritability can just be feeling 0:06:42.510 --> 0:06:47.229 keyed up or tense. So women definitely report this, but again, 0:06:47.329 --> 0:06:49.950 when we look at the prospective data in terms of 0:06:49.950 --> 0:06:53.469 changes and anxiety over time, firstly, there was not a 0:06:53.470 --> 0:06:56.149 lot of evidence, and that doesn't mean that there is 0:06:56.149 --> 0:06:59.630 no connection. It means that menopause has been a neglected 0:06:59.630 --> 0:07:03.269 area of medicine. And so, some of these questions, we 0:07:03.269 --> 0:07:04.589 just don't fully know. 0:07:05.230 --> 0:07:10.230 Um, but, so there is a possibility that anxiety might increase, 0:07:10.279 --> 0:07:12.799 but not for all women. Um, so there's a lot 0:07:12.799 --> 0:07:15.799 of nuance there. Um, and I think that that nuance 0:07:15.799 --> 0:07:19.209 is different to a TikTok. When you hear a TikTok, 0:07:19.690 --> 0:07:22.880 you will get quite alarmed about the menopause and think, wow, 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:29.790 I'm going to become really irritable, really rageful, potentially very depressed. 0:07:30.079 --> 0:07:32.079 So menopause, and we can talk about 0:07:32.420 --> 0:07:35.559 Some reasons how it can impact mental health, but it's 0:07:35.559 --> 0:07:38.350 nuanced and not everybody is affected in the same way. 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.190 And Lydia, I don't know if it's just my social 0:07:41.190 --> 0:07:43.269 media algorithm, but I'm sure a lot of women are 0:07:43.269 --> 0:07:45.989 in the same algorithm in terms of getting a lot 0:07:45.989 --> 0:07:49.670 of content around the physical things we can do around 0:07:49.670 --> 0:07:52.750 making sure we eat enough protein and doing strength training 0:07:52.750 --> 0:07:56.660 and strengthen our bones with jump training or whatever. But 0:07:56.829 --> 0:07:58.989 I don't see a lot about what we can do 0:07:58.989 --> 0:08:02.070 for the mental health side of things. And, you know, 0:08:02.149 --> 0:08:05.290 there's jokes about perimenopause rage, and you said that that's, 0:08:05.350 --> 0:08:07.309 you know, may or may not be a thing, but 0:08:07.769 --> 0:08:10.130 There's certainly a lot of advice out there in the 0:08:10.130 --> 0:08:13.730 kind of social media sphere about these physical things that 0:08:13.730 --> 0:08:16.839 we can do to improve our bodies over this time. 0:08:16.929 --> 0:08:19.290 But what would you say about the, the kind of 0:08:19.290 --> 0:08:21.459 mental health preparation we can do? 0:08:21.649 --> 0:08:24.250 So I think first is that it's not a woman's 0:08:24.250 --> 0:08:27.489 responsibility alone, if she feels like 0:08:27.890 --> 0:08:30.320 I'm not, if, if, if you're not getting the right 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.429 support from your doctor, and that's a whole another topic 0:08:33.429 --> 0:08:37.239 that a lot of doctors aren't necessarily well equipped to 0:08:37.239 --> 0:08:41.479 manage the menopause. Um, and like I've suggested that clients, 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.960 when I've worked as a clinical psychologist, uh, I've been 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.119 concerned that they had a lot of hot flushes and 0:08:47.119 --> 0:08:50.679 night sweats that were impacting their sleep, and they really 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.119 needed to be addressed. I've suggested to clients to follow 0:08:54.119 --> 0:08:55.770 those symptoms up with their GP. 0:08:56.239 --> 0:09:00.260 And basically, I, I've experienced recently, GPs kind of turn 0:09:00.260 --> 0:09:02.869 around and say, Look, there's nothing I can really do 0:09:02.869 --> 0:09:05.419 to help you. And then if you then feel the 0:09:05.419 --> 0:09:08.140 burden to try and sort of inverted commas, improve your 0:09:08.140 --> 0:09:11.140 mental health, there's a bit of a problem there and 0:09:11.140 --> 0:09:14.299 that you're not receiving the support as a baseline that 0:09:14.299 --> 0:09:17.179 you need. So before we think about what we can 0:09:17.179 --> 0:09:19.679 do for our individual mental health, 0:09:20.159 --> 0:09:23.590 I think looking to see what supports you have around 0:09:23.590 --> 0:09:26.390 you as a starting point is probably the first step. 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.630 And so, looking at your GP support, do you have 0:09:29.630 --> 0:09:33.640 a good GP that's aware of the menopause? So I've had, like, 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.840 for example, a friend of mine who's training to be 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.789 a GP, she was really interested to upskill in the menopause, 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.839 and her mentor during her training said, Honestly, I'd recommend 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.520 staying clear of that area. It's a very complicated area. Um, 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:49.349 you can refer to a specialist clinic. 0:09:50.059 --> 0:09:53.669 And my friend was just felt quite saddened by that. 0:09:54.489 --> 0:09:58.090 So this is all changing, and the Senate Inquiry into 0:09:58.090 --> 0:10:01.270 menopause that took place last year as part of that. 0:10:01.690 --> 0:10:05.520 We're now recognising that there's a huge gap in clinician training, 0:10:05.570 --> 0:10:09.650 and we're addressing these things, but, uh, it's a work 0:10:09.650 --> 0:10:10.500 in progress. 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.169 And is it just a training issue? Or is it 0:10:13.169 --> 0:10:16.609 also that GPs don't yet have a good evidence base 0:10:16.609 --> 0:10:19.848 from research such as the kind you do, um, on 0:10:19.849 --> 0:10:21.960 which to give advice? 0:10:22.650 --> 0:10:26.719 So, there is a growing, and there's a lot of 0:10:26.719 --> 0:10:31.369 research looking into menopausal hormone therapy, um, also called hormone 0:10:31.369 --> 0:10:34.209 replacement therapy. And that's not my sort of direct area 0:10:34.210 --> 0:10:37.690 of expertise, but there's been a lot of research around 0:10:37.690 --> 0:10:38.530 that over time. 0:10:38.645 --> 0:10:42.664 And there's been challenges around that too, in terms of, uh, 0:10:42.744 --> 0:10:48.304 misunderstandings or exaggerations of the link between menopausal hormone therapy 0:10:48.304 --> 0:10:51.304 and breast cancer that's now addressed. But because there's a 0:10:51.304 --> 0:10:54.814 lot of nuance and a treatment like hormone therapy, 0:10:55.270 --> 0:10:59.030 Um, has risks and benefits. I, I think sometimes doctors 0:10:59.030 --> 0:11:02.909 report feeling a little unsure. Um, so we're improving sort 0:11:02.909 --> 0:11:06.380 of access, not me personally, but we're looking into improving 0:11:06.669 --> 0:11:10.109 that training for GPs, and there are tools that GPs 0:11:10.109 --> 0:11:13.179 can use to help them decide. So there is evidence, 0:11:13.270 --> 0:11:15.369 but there's also 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:21.200 confusion as well. So, for example, I've heard in psychiatric wards, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:25.229 midlife women might come in in a mental health crisis, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:30.469 and I've heard of, um, psychiatrists there prescribing menopausal hormone therapy, 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.710 having learned that hormone therapy might be helpful for mental health. 0:11:35.119 --> 0:11:37.630 And I would say that that's jumping too quickly. We 0:11:37.630 --> 0:11:41.239 don't have necessarily the evidence base for a treatment like that. 0:11:41.659 --> 0:11:45.098 And yet on the ground, perhaps, a psychiatrist has done 0:11:45.099 --> 0:11:47.799 some sort of training and thought, oh, OK, great, this 0:11:47.799 --> 0:11:51.109 might help with mental health. So we do need to have, 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.070 make sure that our clinical practise is informed by research, 0:11:54.270 --> 0:11:55.950 especially when it comes to mental health. 0:11:56.780 --> 0:12:01.079 So that's a kind of medical treatment, um, hormone replacement therapy. 0:12:01.510 --> 0:12:05.200 How about more talk therapy or psychological therapies and, and 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.590 including those that people can maybe administer for themselves. So 0:12:08.590 --> 0:12:11.150 you've done some important work on self-compassion. Can you tell 0:12:11.150 --> 0:12:12.799 us a bit about what that is and how it 0:12:12.799 --> 0:12:14.030 relates to this area? 0:12:14.309 --> 0:12:14.738 Sure. 0:12:15.070 --> 0:12:17.510 So, again, going back to that caveat that I think the, the, 0:12:17.539 --> 0:12:22.270 the cornerstone of mental health and well-being for women should 0:12:22.270 --> 0:12:26.939 be holistic, and you can't separate the medical support, which 0:12:26.940 --> 0:12:31.619 may or may not include hormone therapy, from a broader support, 0:12:31.669 --> 0:12:37.569 which can include psychological therapies, but also interventions for all 0:12:37.570 --> 0:12:41.200 women to support their well-being at this time. And those 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:42.869 two things have to go hand in hand. 0:12:43.590 --> 0:12:46.030 Some of my research that I'm really excited about is 0:12:46.030 --> 0:12:48.989 looking at the possible role of self-compassion for women going 0:12:48.989 --> 0:12:53.789 through menopause. So, at midlife, it's a time when often 0:12:53.789 --> 0:12:57.830 women have a lot of different demands. So they may 0:12:57.830 --> 0:13:01.510 have gained seniority in work. They may have a team 0:13:01.510 --> 0:13:06.179 working for them. They may, um, have more responsibilities at work, 0:13:06.309 --> 0:13:10.189 or they may not. They may be at home with kids, juggling. 0:13:10.789 --> 0:13:14.869 Lots of different timetables, um, giving back to the community, 0:13:15.190 --> 0:13:20.348 ageing parents. So life is quite complicated, and you can 0:13:20.349 --> 0:13:24.059 feel quite stretched in a lot of ways, and often 0:13:24.059 --> 0:13:27.065 there's not really the time for self-care. Your own well-being 0:13:27.065 --> 0:13:29.885 just goes to the bottom of the priority list. 0:13:30.505 --> 0:13:34.664 And so self-compassion is about bringing, um, awareness of your 0:13:34.664 --> 0:13:39.255 own needs back, uh, onto the table and prioritising that. 0:13:39.585 --> 0:13:41.944 And we can talk about the formal definition of self-compassion. 0:13:41.984 --> 0:13:45.434 I think that's quite nice to talk about too. Um, 0:13:45.544 --> 0:13:50.223 but women at midlife, I think, might especially benefit from, um, 0:13:50.304 --> 0:13:53.255 a psychological resilience factor like self-compassion. 0:13:53.505 --> 0:13:56.465 So just to go into what self-compassion means, 0:13:56.979 --> 0:14:01.169 So self-compassion involves treating yourself with the same kindness and 0:14:01.169 --> 0:14:04.840 support that you would extend to a good friend. So 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.760 often we know how to be kind to others, and 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.599 especially at times in need, when a friend needs us 0:14:11.599 --> 0:14:14.909 the most, if they're struggling, we, our heart goes out 0:14:14.909 --> 0:14:16.349 to them and we want to help. 0:14:16.909 --> 0:14:21.989 But when we're struggling ourselves, we sometimes can beat ourselves 0:14:21.989 --> 0:14:26.849 up about it. So I'm a new mum myself, and 0:14:26.849 --> 0:14:29.210 if my 3 year old is having a tantrum, 0:14:29.940 --> 0:14:32.849 it can be a bit tricky to sometimes bring in 0:14:32.849 --> 0:14:36.289 that moment of compassion. I might think, Oh, gosh, I'm 0:14:36.289 --> 0:14:39.130 not a very good mother, or why is my daughter 0:14:39.130 --> 0:14:43.690 having another tantrum? Sometimes women, especially can, and men, but 0:14:43.690 --> 0:14:46.169 research shows that women are lower on self-compassion than men. 0:14:47.020 --> 0:14:50.580 Uh, that, um, we can struggle to be kind to ourselves, 0:14:50.900 --> 0:14:55.090 but it's a psychological resilience factor that we can train. 0:14:55.179 --> 0:15:00.729 So even though, due to, perhaps in part genetics, due to, um, 0:15:00.739 --> 0:15:01.840 our upbringing, 0:15:02.179 --> 0:15:08.190 Um, self-compassion as a construct only really entered psychology back 0:15:08.190 --> 0:15:12.900 in 2002, when it was first introduced as a psychological construct. 0:15:12.950 --> 0:15:15.830 So it's relatively new. So that means that if you're 0:15:15.830 --> 0:15:18.030 an adult now, you probably were never taught how to 0:15:18.030 --> 0:15:21.190 be kind to yourself. So there's this big deficit there. 0:15:21.729 --> 0:15:25.580 Um, but through training, we can learn, little by little, 0:15:25.659 --> 0:15:29.419 how to be kinder to ourselves, in our thoughts, in 0:15:29.419 --> 0:15:34.020 our emotions, and in our actions. So at midlife, being 0:15:34.020 --> 0:15:38.049 self-compassionate can relate to the thoughts that you tell yourself. 0:15:38.260 --> 0:15:43.020 It relates to how you deal with your emotions, especially 0:15:43.020 --> 0:15:49.039 when you're feeling bad or anxious, or any kind of 0:15:49.039 --> 0:15:50.059 negative emotion. 0:15:50.559 --> 0:15:53.830 Um, so your behaviours, your thoughts, and your emotions. 0:15:54.559 --> 0:15:57.880 Do you find much individual difference in how easy it 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.679 is to train people in self-compassion as a, I think 0:16:00.679 --> 0:16:03.559 the women kind of going through perimenopause and menopause now 0:16:03.559 --> 0:16:06.080 are kind of typically Gen X and whatever you buy 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.200 into the stereotypes of generations, but 0:16:08.969 --> 0:16:12.489 Gen X is kind of defined as being pretty tough and, 0:16:12.570 --> 0:16:14.450 you know, no pain, no gain, all that kind of 0:16:14.450 --> 0:16:17.570 stuff from, from growing up. So, do you think those 0:16:17.570 --> 0:16:22.289 women are trickier to teach self-compassion, because it's just so 0:16:22.289 --> 0:16:24.359 different to how they've gotten through life? 0:16:24.729 --> 0:16:26.340 Yeah, I was thinking about cohort of 0:16:27.335 --> 0:16:30.924 I was wondering about this, and I don't know about 0:16:31.174 --> 0:16:36.054 exact research, looking into how different generations are at being 0:16:36.054 --> 0:16:40.125 kind to themselves, but I do think that maybe Gen 0:16:40.125 --> 0:16:42.614 Z is a little better at this because it's part 0:16:42.614 --> 0:16:43.864 of their world a bit more. 0:16:44.409 --> 0:16:49.190 Um, but Gen X, um, I'm a Millennial, so same, Millennials, 0:16:49.270 --> 0:16:52.469 we were never taught about this. So it's really like 0:16:52.469 --> 0:16:55.070 a foreign language. It's like if you've always spoken English 0:16:55.070 --> 0:16:57.989 your whole life, and then you find yourself in China 0:16:57.989 --> 0:17:02.260 and people are speaking Mandarin, it can feel really foreign. 0:17:02.549 --> 0:17:06.760 And when you start to practise words of self-kindness or 0:17:06.805 --> 0:17:11.594 actions of self-kindness. It can feel jarring and influent, but 0:17:11.594 --> 0:17:14.594 just like any language, the more you practise it, the 0:17:14.594 --> 0:17:15.665 better you get at it. 0:17:15.875 --> 0:17:17.314 But I think also, as you said, a lot of 0:17:17.314 --> 0:17:20.895 women in that stage are also juggling kids and parents 0:17:20.895 --> 0:17:23.755 and work and trying to get their, all their protein 0:17:23.755 --> 0:17:25.665 and fitness stuff in that they're being told to do, 0:17:25.675 --> 0:17:28.435 and then finding time to be kind to yourself is 0:17:28.435 --> 0:17:29.185 really hard. 0:17:29.635 --> 0:17:32.314 Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. And that's why 0:17:32.314 --> 0:17:35.744 self-compassion is not really a one size fits all idea. 0:17:36.300 --> 0:17:40.680 And if you add on, like, another item on your 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:44.109 to do list, it can be a bit counterproductive. So 0:17:44.109 --> 0:17:49.439 it's about really kind of thinking for yourself, what would 0:17:49.439 --> 0:17:53.280 self-compassion look like to me in the week ahead. And 0:17:53.280 --> 0:18:00.030 it might be cancelling a social engagement, or it might mean, actually, um, 0:18:00.260 --> 0:18:03.060 you're thinking of going to, it can just mean different 0:18:03.060 --> 0:18:04.479 things to different people. 0:18:04.979 --> 0:18:07.089 But it's not something you say, OK, from 11 to 0:18:07.089 --> 0:18:09.688 12 on Tuesday, I'm gonna do self-compassion. It has to 0:18:09.689 --> 0:18:13.089 be a more holistic way of looking at your week. 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.280 Exactly. And it doesn't have to take up time. So, 0:18:16.290 --> 0:18:21.849 something like, uh, your thinking patterns. If you are, for example, 0:18:21.969 --> 0:18:24.159 having menopausal hot flushes, 0:18:24.530 --> 0:18:27.790 again, this is part of a holistic treatment. It's not, uh, 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.879 I'm not saying that, um, it's the only option, but 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.760 if you were experiencing a hot flush, some women can 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:41.459 have quite sort of negative thoughts around that. They might think, 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:46.030 Oh my goodness, not again. Now I'm distracted from work. 0:18:46.420 --> 0:18:48.910 I'm not as efficient as I used to be. 0:18:49.390 --> 0:18:51.849 Um, I've got to change my clothes, and some of 0:18:51.849 --> 0:18:53.849 that may be true, you, you know, you might need 0:18:53.849 --> 0:18:56.920 to change your clothes. So there can be aspects of 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:00.489 the inner dialogue that may have like a seed of 0:19:00.489 --> 0:19:04.319 truth to them, but if you can stop and think, Oh, wow, 0:19:04.569 --> 0:19:07.250 this is a moment of suffering. How can I be 0:19:07.250 --> 0:19:10.250 kind to myself right now? It might be, I'm just 0:19:10.250 --> 0:19:15.010 gonna take a moment to do a few slower breaths. 0:19:15.540 --> 0:19:18.919 I'm just gonna go for a 10 minute walk and 0:19:18.930 --> 0:19:21.520 stop what I'm doing at my desk, um, in the 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.119 middle of the night, the same. So last year, I 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.839 had a baby, and after having a baby, you have 0:19:27.839 --> 0:19:32.379 a big rapid decline in oestrogen. And I kept waking up, 0:19:32.479 --> 0:19:36.169 having to have a shower and having to change my pyjamas, 0:19:36.180 --> 0:19:37.969 and I was like, I've got a virus. Like, I 0:19:37.969 --> 0:19:40.069 think I need to go back to hospital. 0:19:40.599 --> 0:19:43.400 And I felt quite kind of sick and I, and, 0:19:43.439 --> 0:19:46.429 and I was drenched in sweat. And it took me 0:19:46.430 --> 0:19:47.619 like a couple of 0:19:48.189 --> 0:19:49.920 Like, I think it was like a couple of weeks 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.679 to realise, Hang on a second, this is oestrogen withdrawal 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.478 related hot flushes. And they were worse than what I 0:19:56.479 --> 0:19:59.270 thought they were. Like, I'd studied hot flushes for years, 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.760 but when I experienced it myself, and I had these 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:07.159 kind of thoughts that probably weren't helping around, I've got 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:07.719 a virus 0:20:07.824 --> 0:20:10.375 and maybe I have to go back to hospital. Um, 0:20:10.474 --> 0:20:12.564 that wasn't my fault I had those thoughts. It was 0:20:12.564 --> 0:20:15.525 a lack of education, even though I was an expert, 0:20:15.895 --> 0:20:19.015 during my pregnancy, nobody told me to expect that. So again, 0:20:19.135 --> 0:20:23.364 it shows how mental health is not a woman's responsibility. 0:20:23.750 --> 0:20:26.448 Um, by themselves. Uh, and that could be a bit 0:20:26.449 --> 0:20:29.688 gaslighting at worst, if we kind of thought, OK, I, 0:20:29.810 --> 0:20:33.810 I'm experiencing hot flushes, so I have to, you know, uh, 0:20:33.969 --> 0:20:37.040 fix that or deal with my mental health all by myself. 0:20:37.170 --> 0:20:39.879 I really see it as a bit of a shared responsibility. 0:20:40.449 --> 0:20:42.849 And I think also, we can't ignore social media in 0:20:42.849 --> 0:20:44.800 this space, and I think you can get yourself into 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:48.209 a spiral of all the bad things that are gonna happen, 0:20:48.300 --> 0:20:50.659 and you watch a couple of TikToks about someone having 0:20:50.660 --> 0:20:53.020 bad experiences, and then, of course, the algorithm just feeds 0:20:53.020 --> 0:20:55.020 you more of that. I mean, it's great to have 0:20:55.020 --> 0:20:58.540 more awareness and more content creators talking about this, but 0:20:58.540 --> 0:21:01.500 I think it can cause a bit of distress in 0:21:01.500 --> 0:21:04.380 women if all they're seeing is the bad side of 0:21:04.380 --> 0:21:07.500 what might happen. What advice do you have on, on that? 0:21:07.619 --> 0:21:09.938 This is such a good question, and it's something that 0:21:09.939 --> 0:21:13.579 I'm also grappling with myself, because 0:21:14.010 --> 0:21:18.849 there is a lot of suffering relating to menopause. A 0:21:18.849 --> 0:21:23.410 lot of it is, I say unnecessary suffering, that's not 0:21:23.410 --> 0:21:27.050 quite the right word, but it's due to social factors, 0:21:27.089 --> 0:21:33.339 like the medical neglect, like even misogyny and ageism combined, 0:21:33.489 --> 0:21:36.079 so that women don't look forward to being an 0:21:36.130 --> 0:21:41.459 older, wiser leader in society, they worry about being invisible, 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.359 or they worry about being past their prime. So there 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:47.800 are so many different reasons why we might sort of 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.609 feel negatively about menopause, and also, 0:21:52.069 --> 0:21:55.599 The symptoms can wreak havoc on some people's lives. And 0:21:55.599 --> 0:21:59.560 as a psychologist, I've definitely seen this. Not just the symptoms, 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.640 but the underlying hormonal changes can, like, very much, um, 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:06.800 impact mental health. But at the same time, when you 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:10.639 look at global data, you don't see a, a huge 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.958 plummet in, um, mental health. You don't see huge rise 0:22:14.959 --> 0:22:17.000 in depression, huge rise in anxiety. 0:22:17.369 --> 0:22:21.079 And so to try and balance the lived experience, um, 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:23.160 and as I said for myself, I found a hot 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:26.839 flush worse than what I could have ever expected. So 0:22:26.839 --> 0:22:30.119 there's a lived experience, and then there's a message that 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:34.760 we want to share with younger women that menopause isn't 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:37.000