WEBVTT - Could cognitive neuroscience influence how we teach and learn? 0:00:00.009 --> 0:00:02.940 This podcast was made on the lands of the Wurundjeri people, 0:00:03.190 --> 0:00:06.349 the Woi-wurrung and the Bunurong. We'd like to pay respects 0:00:06.360 --> 0:00:09.270 to their elders, past and present and emerging. 0:00:14.399 --> 0:00:17.930 From the Melbourne School of Psychological Sciences at the University 0:00:17.940 --> 0:00:20.370 of Melbourne. This is PsychTalks. 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.069 Hello and thanks for joining us again for another episode 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:29.379 of PsychTalks. I'm Professor Nick Haslam, a social psychologist. Normally, 0:00:29.389 --> 0:00:33.349 I'd be accompanied by Associate Professor Cassie Haywood, an applied psychologist. 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:35.840 But unfortunately, she's not able to come here today. In 0:00:36.290 --> 0:00:40.419 this episode, we're putting the microscope on cognitive development. In particular, 0:00:40.430 --> 0:00:44.080 we'll focus on what's called executive functions, how these executive 0:00:44.090 --> 0:00:46.979 functions evolve and what their impact on us is exactly. 0:00:47.130 --> 0:00:49.720 And to help us, we're joined by Professor Iroise Dumontheil. 0:00:59.580 --> 0:01:01.150 Hello and welcome to PsychTalks, Iroise. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:02.380 Thanks for having me. 0:01:02.389 --> 0:01:03.979 So just to start off, can you say a little 0:01:03.990 --> 0:01:06.830 bit about your background? How you came to be in Melbourne? 0:01:06.889 --> 0:01:09.910 Yes, I'm French originally, but I spent a lot of 0:01:09.919 --> 0:01:13.919 my university time in the UK, except for a few 0:01:13.930 --> 0:01:18.089 periods of Postdoc in Stockholm in Sweden, which I enjoyed 0:01:18.099 --> 0:01:22.249 very much, and after 20 years or so in London, 0:01:22.249 --> 0:01:23.970 I migrated to Melbourne last year. 0:01:23.980 --> 0:01:26.489 So, Iroise, your work is deeply rooted in an area 0:01:26.500 --> 0:01:30.470 called developmental, cognitive neuroscience and educational neuroscience. 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:35.569 Yes, so developmental cognitive neuroscience is the study of brain development. So, 0:01:35.580 --> 0:01:38.449 we use new methods of brain imaging to look at 0:01:38.459 --> 0:01:41.970 the brain structure and brain function and how these changes 0:01:41.980 --> 0:01:46.470 during development allow the development of cognitive capacities. So being 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.449 able to remember more things, attend better and things like that. 0:01:50.839 --> 0:01:55.139 While educational neuroscience is trying to link this research to 0:01:55.150 --> 0:01:58.769 educational research and teaching practices to see whether what we 0:01:58.779 --> 0:02:03.029 are learning from developmental cognitive neuroscience can be informative for 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:03.660 education 0:02:03.669 --> 0:02:07.480 Sounds very cutting edge. And I imagine researchers in these 0:02:07.489 --> 0:02:10.179 fields study a whole range of different brain functions. But 0:02:10.190 --> 0:02:12.538 one concept that stands out in your own work is 0:02:12.550 --> 0:02:16.038 executive functions. Could you explain what these functions are and 0:02:16.050 --> 0:02:18.539 how they develop during childhood and adolescence? 0:02:18.550 --> 0:02:22.300 Yes, so cognitive control or executive function- so executive, it's 0:02:22.309 --> 0:02:25.440 a bit like the CEO in a company. They coordinate 0:02:25.449 --> 0:02:30.990 other aspects of cognition like perception, attention, action to achieve 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.978 your goals. And they're particularly important when we're faced with 0:02:33.990 --> 0:02:38.299 situations where your routine behaviours (automatic thoughts) are not sufficient, 0:02:38.309 --> 0:02:40.759 so what you do normally does- is not enough. So, 0:02:40.770 --> 0:02:43.419 for example, if you're driving home but your usual route 0:02:43.429 --> 0:02:46.739 is blocked by roadwork, then you need to cancel your 0:02:46.750 --> 0:02:51.544 normal route, or inhibit it and instead plan an alternative route. 0:02:51.854 --> 0:02:54.853 And so executive functions that have been studied in particular 0:02:54.865 --> 0:02:58.074 include working memory, which allow us to keep information in 0:02:58.085 --> 0:03:00.925 mind and manipulate it. For example, if you're trying to 0:03:00.934 --> 0:03:02.804 calculate how to split the bill at the end of 0:03:02.815 --> 0:03:04.154 the dinner, you have to kind of think of how 0:03:04.163 --> 0:03:05.763 many people are there, and I can think about all 0:03:05.774 --> 0:03:10.119 these numbers. Or inhibitory control, which allow us to stop 0:03:10.130 --> 0:03:14.199 an automatic or dominant behaviours or thoughts like you keep 0:03:14.210 --> 0:03:18.220 wanting to eat some cake. Or cognitive flexibility, which is the 0:03:18.229 --> 0:03:21.679 ability to shift between goals or rules or tasks. So, 0:03:21.690 --> 0:03:24.440 like a kid will speak differently to their friend or 0:03:24.449 --> 0:03:27.579 to their teacher to their parent or grandparent and developmental 0:03:27.589 --> 0:03:30.918 cognitive neuroscience research in the last 25 years or so 0:03:31.199 --> 0:03:35.500 have shown that executive functions and the brain networks that 0:03:35.509 --> 0:03:39.639 support executive functions continue to mature well into adolescence. 0:03:39.649 --> 0:03:43.779 I wish you hadn't mentioned cake. So these executive functions 0:03:43.789 --> 0:03:46.759 why are they so crucial for educational outcomes? 0:03:46.770 --> 0:03:50.690 Because they allow us to think and behave in novel contexts. 0:03:50.699 --> 0:03:53.350 And usually everything we learn is new. So, in a 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.619 broad way, executive functions help children pay attention also to 0:03:56.630 --> 0:04:00.330 what the teacher is saying not be distracted, remember to 0:04:00.339 --> 0:04:03.250 do their homework and manipulate abstract thoughts. So, all this 0:04:03.259 --> 0:04:06.529 enables them to be in the right place mentally, to 0:04:06.539 --> 0:04:09.710 learn at school. But also, when we learn new things, 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.050 it's a novel situation. We have to kind of figure 0:04:12.059 --> 0:04:14.570 out what to do, how to maintain that in our mind. 0:04:15.039 --> 0:04:18.140 And that's all really relevant for the educational context. 0:04:18.140 --> 0:04:20.290 Right. So kids can't just sit in a classroom and 0:04:20.299 --> 0:04:21.690 be sponges, in other words. 0:04:21.700 --> 0:04:25.089 No, they have to attend. So if they are looking outside, 0:04:25.100 --> 0:04:27.279 listening to their friend, they are not going to be 0:04:27.290 --> 0:04:28.928 listening to what the teacher is saying. And so, they 0:04:28.940 --> 0:04:30.910 are not going to learn that particular concept at that time. 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.209 Research suggests that teachers have to repeat the same thing 0:04:33.220 --> 0:04:35.260 at least three or four times because one time the 0:04:35.269 --> 0:04:37.329 kid is looking for something in their bag, another time 0:04:37.339 --> 0:04:39.289 they are talking to their friend, and one time they 0:04:39.299 --> 0:04:40.169 heard the teacher. 0:04:40.178 --> 0:04:44.329 Makes sense. So how about STEM disciplines like science and 0:04:44.339 --> 0:04:45.570 mathematics in particular? 0:04:45.579 --> 0:04:49.220 Yes. So if we take the example of arithmetic because 0:04:49.329 --> 0:04:53.029 often we talk about maths. But really, in cognitive neuroscience research, 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.209 we look at arithmetic, which is like a simpler, more 0:04:55.220 --> 0:04:58.000 limited part of maths. There is evidence that when children 0:04:58.010 --> 0:05:01.899 first learn arithmetic, facts like four plus six equals 10 0:05:01.910 --> 0:05:05.130 or four times six equals 24. They use the frontal 0:05:05.140 --> 0:05:08.149 parts of their brain, which are very much involved in 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.829 executive functioning. Well, when these facts become well learned, so 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:15.399 they are more automatized, then we see increased activation in 0:05:15.410 --> 0:05:17.549 the parietal regions at the back of the brain. So 0:05:17.559 --> 0:05:19.915 we have to have this shift between when something is new, 0:05:19.915 --> 0:05:22.959 we use a frontal cortex. When something is kind of automatized, 0:05:22.970 --> 0:05:25.089 it's the back of the brain. But then, if you 0:05:25.100 --> 0:05:28.109 ask an adult to calculate, you know 35 times 12, 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.570 then they will need to decompose this multiplication into different bits, 0:05:31.579 --> 0:05:33.619 and they will need to keep that information in mind. 0:05:33.630 --> 0:05:36.019 So they will need them working memory to to solve it. 0:05:36.100 --> 0:05:39.950 So working memory helps us manipulate new concepts, new facts 0:05:39.959 --> 0:05:44.179 and integrate them with existing knowledge we already have. And 0:05:44.190 --> 0:05:48.025 that's really what is the key component of learning. And 0:05:48.036 --> 0:05:52.226 what education is striving to do is to make connections 0:05:52.235 --> 0:05:55.895 between old and new knowledge and executive functions really allow 0:05:55.906 --> 0:05:58.145 us to do that because we're keeping in mind the 0:05:58.156 --> 0:06:01.936 new bit, the old information and consolidating them and linking 0:06:01.946 --> 0:06:05.045 them together. And those links is what helps us remember 0:06:05.055 --> 0:06:05.966 it long term. 0:06:06.026 --> 0:06:09.705 Are there differences between individuals and groups? 0:06:09.802 --> 0:06:12.842 Yeah, so like most human traits, there are a lot 0:06:12.851 --> 0:06:17.272 of individual differences in executive function abilities. Some of them are, 0:06:17.282 --> 0:06:19.861 you know, who have a genetic origin, Um, but also 0:06:19.872 --> 0:06:23.261 environmental origins. For example, one of my students, Roisin Perry. 0:06:23.272 --> 0:06:26.570 She's analysing a cohort trying to look at markers of 0:06:26.582 --> 0:06:33.040 socioeconomic status, how different markers might predict development of executive function. 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:34.979 And a lot of research has been done looking at 0:06:34.988 --> 0:06:38.890 very early childhood and low SES children tend to be 0:06:38.899 --> 0:06:42.719 less ready to start school. But we were looking at adolescence. 0:06:42.730 --> 0:06:46.829 So how long would this influence continue to last, and 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.368 she found that markers like parental occupation and very low 0:06:50.380 --> 0:06:56.269 family income influence developmental trajectory of executive functions into adolescence 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:56.799 as well. 0:06:56.809 --> 0:07:00.500 So, do these environmental effects on executive functions matter for 0:07:00.510 --> 0:07:01.179 academic achievement? 0:07:01.380 --> 0:07:04.140 So, there is evidence that children of higher working memory 0:07:04.170 --> 0:07:07.458 tend to do better in arithmetic and even adolescents. Again, 0:07:07.470 --> 0:07:10.890 we've found that those kids who had better working memory 0:07:10.899 --> 0:07:14.040 at age 11/12 tended to do better in the UK 0:07:14.049 --> 0:07:18.160 in these GCSEs. So the age 16 standardised test in maths, 0:07:18.170 --> 0:07:21.649 science and English, even when you control for earlier academic achievement. 0:07:21.910 --> 0:07:24.350 So how much information you can keep in mind and 0:07:24.359 --> 0:07:28.589 manipulate over the course of adolescence continues to affect how 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:29.649 well you're doing at school. 0:07:29.660 --> 0:07:33.440 So given those really interesting individual differences, what should teachers 0:07:33.450 --> 0:07:37.220 do if the students they've got in their classroom vary 0:07:37.230 --> 0:07:40.018 a lot in the maturity of their executive functions and, 0:07:40.029 --> 0:07:42.711 of course, other aspects of their cognitive development as well? 0:07:42.711 --> 0:07:46.970 How can they enhance learning for all at once? How 0:07:46.980 --> 0:07:48.410 can you personalise education? 0:07:49.220 --> 0:07:51.910 This is a very big question, so and that's one 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:55.600 of the key aims of educational neuroscience. How can we 0:07:55.609 --> 0:07:59.679 help teachers with that first identify the strengths and weaknesses 0:07:59.690 --> 0:08:03.559 of certain children and how to help them according to 0:08:03.570 --> 0:08:07.260 their strength and weaknesses? And teachers are already very aware 0:08:07.269 --> 0:08:10.070 of the fact that children in a single classroom vary 0:08:10.079 --> 0:08:15.239 hugely in their abilities in different domains, whether that's literacy, numeracy, science, art, 0:08:15.250 --> 0:08:19.500 music and sport. But because of individual differences in executive function, 0:08:19.510 --> 0:08:22.750 some children may be more easily distracted by things like 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.380 decorations in a classroom or by a chatty school friend. 0:08:26.630 --> 0:08:29.450 Or they might not be able to remember four instructions. 0:08:29.459 --> 0:08:31.899 So an example we give is like if the teacher says, 0:08:32.005 --> 0:08:34.356 "Put your English book down, take your math notebook, a 0:08:34.716 --> 0:08:37.695 blue pen and come sit on the floor." Some kids 0:08:37.705 --> 0:08:40.135 are just lost after the two first instructions, and it 0:08:40.145 --> 0:08:42.866 might be like wandering around looking like they're lost or 0:08:42.875 --> 0:08:45.705 not attending. But it was actually too much information, or 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:48.856 they might not be able to solve mental arithmetic problems 0:08:48.866 --> 0:08:51.085 at the same age as others. And all this will 0:08:51.096 --> 0:08:53.536 impact their learning because if they keep missing out on 0:08:53.546 --> 0:08:57.675 some information, gradually, you can get behind. So, what we're 0:08:57.684 --> 0:08:59.952 trying to think about is how we can help teachers 0:08:59.961 --> 0:09:04.131 be more aware of these particular executive function differences and 0:09:04.142 --> 0:09:08.091 how that might impact children in the classroom. So, for example, 0:09:08.101 --> 0:09:11.521 you know, not gives as many instructions. And sometimes if 0:09:11.530 --> 0:09:15.392 you have a routine that helps children because again, when 0:09:15.401 --> 0:09:17.711 it's automatic, you don't need your executive functions in the 0:09:17.721 --> 0:09:20.771 same way. But a bigger question for education is whether 0:09:20.780 --> 0:09:24.312 we want education to permit every child to reach their 0:09:24.322 --> 0:09:28.209 full potential or for all children to achieve a minimum 0:09:28.219 --> 0:09:31.750 goal standard level. And these two goals lead to quite 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.960 different approaches and to teaching groups of children with varied abilities. 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:40.030 And it's not really a question for developmental, cognitive neuroscientist 0:09:40.039 --> 0:09:45.209 or educational neuroscientist to answer. It's a society question, but 0:09:45.219 --> 0:09:47.909 it will affect what advice we might give on how 0:09:47.919 --> 0:09:50.469 to help children and how to teach in the classroom. 0:09:50.479 --> 0:09:53.400 So are these advances that you're making finding their way 0:09:53.409 --> 0:09:55.815 into teacher training yet or that down the track a bit? 0:09:55.895 --> 0:09:59.335 There is a push to do that, but it's very hard. First, 0:09:59.344 --> 0:10:02.684 teacher training is not very long. Well, it depends. Different 0:10:02.695 --> 0:10:05.905 countries do it very differently. And in some countries like Finland, 0:10:06.164 --> 0:10:08.843 it's a masters. You have a kind of very long training, 0:10:08.854 --> 0:10:10.385 and they cover actually a lot of that. And they 0:10:10.395 --> 0:10:13.767 do very well in PISA and things like this. In other countries, 0:10:13.767 --> 0:10:16.854 it's very condensed. In one year, you do learn bits 0:10:16.864 --> 0:10:19.864 about teaching, and you actually also practise- start practising teaching 0:10:19.955 --> 0:10:23.194 so you don't have time to actually put too much extra. 0:10:23.609 --> 0:10:26.630 But there is really a push and kind of, working 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.669 with Faculty of Education teacher training to see how much 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:34.380 we can actually insert into the teacher training, removing maybe 0:10:34.390 --> 0:10:38.070 some facts actually, what we call "neuro myths". So things 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:42.559 about learning styles or using 10% of our brain, if actually we can 0:10:42.570 --> 0:10:44.479 kind of get rid of some of that and replace 0:10:44.489 --> 0:10:48.580 them with maybe more, not necessarily cognitive neuroscience based but 0:10:49.059 --> 0:10:53.643 developmental psychology knowledge about learning development that would be useful 0:10:53.643 --> 0:10:56.309 for teachers. But it's going to be a slow, a 0:10:56.380 --> 0:10:57.700 slow progress. 0:10:57.789 --> 0:10:59.929 You've done a lot of work on what you call 0:10:59.940 --> 0:11:03.030 cognitive training. So what forms does that take? And does 0:11:03.039 --> 0:11:06.299 it show promise in improving educational outcomes? What does the 0:11:06.309 --> 0:11:06.979 evidence say? 0:11:06.989 --> 0:11:09.250 Well, one form of cognitive training is a sort of 0:11:09.260 --> 0:11:13.140 brain training games that became really popular maybe 10 years ago. 0:11:13.479 --> 0:11:16.829 But they're still very present in the app world, and 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.559 they all claim to benefit your cognition. So that's kind 0:11:19.570 --> 0:11:22.659 of one form of it. And because executive functions were 0:11:22.669 --> 0:11:26.239 associated with so many outcomes and, you know, educational achievement 0:11:26.250 --> 0:11:29.950 but also mental health, researchers thought that if we exercised 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:34.312 executive function with this type of games, then by repeatedly 0:11:34.312 --> 0:11:37.594 playing these games that tax your executive function, make it 0:11:37.604 --> 0:11:42.765 work hard, for example, remembering, you know, number of words, locations, 0:11:42.775 --> 0:11:45.804 objects in a gamified way to make it more engaging. 0:11:45.815 --> 0:11:48.455 Then we would improve executive function and then down the 0:11:48.465 --> 0:11:52.704 line we would improve arithmetic, academic outcome, mental health outcomes, 0:11:52.715 --> 0:11:57.724 et cetera. Unfortunately, meta-analysis of this type of research indicate that, 0:11:57.734 --> 0:12:01.728 for example, in the case of working memory, performance on 0:12:01.739 --> 0:12:06.119 the games themselves improve. Performance on other types, similar working 0:12:06.130 --> 0:12:09.710 memory tasks improves, too, and that's what we call near transfer, 0:12:09.799 --> 0:12:12.729 so you can improve working memory. But unfortunately, there is 0:12:12.739 --> 0:12:16.130 no what we call far transfer, so improving work memory 0:12:16.140 --> 0:12:19.989 doesn't lead to improvement in reasoning or maths. So this 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.848 is very disappointing, but because that would have been great 0:12:22.859 --> 0:12:25.593 if kids are doing badly in maths because they've got 0:12:25.602 --> 0:12:28.862 poor work memory, we train this work memory using games, 0:12:28.872 --> 0:12:31.403 and then they do better in maths. And what it 0:12:31.413 --> 0:12:34.422 suggests is that the learning and the brain, the way 0:12:34.432 --> 0:12:37.992 the brain supports learning is in specific ways. So we 0:12:38.002 --> 0:12:42.442 learn about maths, maybe working memory for maths facts, manipulating 0:12:42.453 --> 0:12:46.302 numbers so we don't have these domain general working memory 0:12:46.312 --> 0:12:50.545 capacity that once we improve, it improves everything. So we're 0:12:50.556 --> 0:12:54.125 finding it's hard to generalise skills to other domains. 0:12:54.315 --> 0:12:56.776 So, the brain is not just one big, powerful computer? 0:12:56.785 --> 0:13:01.606 No, it has these specialised connections that support specific type 0:13:01.616 --> 0:13:02.276 of thinking. 0:13:02.285 --> 0:13:05.416 Can you say more about your own research work on 0:13:05.426 --> 0:13:06.366 learning games? 0:13:06.666 --> 0:13:09.296 Yes, so we have colleagues at the Centre for Educational 0:13:09.306 --> 0:13:12.314 Neuroscience at the University of London in the UK. We 0:13:12.325 --> 0:13:16.039 were interested in trying a different approach because these games 0:13:16.049 --> 0:13:20.340 weren't working and it rested on two elements. So first, 0:13:20.349 --> 0:13:24.010 because general training did not help, we embedded our learning 0:13:24.020 --> 0:13:27.400 game within the specific context of maths and science to 0:13:27.409 --> 0:13:30.949 have this specificity. And second, in addition, to have some 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:36.614 repeated practise, we engaged children's metacognition. And so meta cognition 0:13:36.614 --> 0:13:39.780 is our ability to think about our thoughts. It means 0:13:39.789 --> 0:13:41.979 that we can reflect on what we're doing and how 0:13:41.989 --> 0:13:45.262 we're doing it. So it's kind of thinking about thinking. 0:13:45.262 --> 0:13:46.979 If we're about to do a task that we think 0:13:46.989 --> 0:13:49.729 is going to be difficult, then we will engage more 0:13:49.739 --> 0:13:53.000 cognitive control, more executive functions to focus more. If we 0:13:53.010 --> 0:13:56.780 feel we haven't memorised our lesson well enough, we'll go 0:13:56.789 --> 0:13:59.210 over it again. So this is kind of this insight 0:13:59.219 --> 0:14:01.979 into our thoughts and behaviour. Or if we feel we're 0:14:01.989 --> 0:14:05.170 driving too fast and the road is slippery, we'll slow down. 0:14:05.170 --> 0:14:07.179 There is some evidence that if you prompt children to 0:14:07.190 --> 0:14:10.880 reflect on their performance, they'll engage executive functions in a 0:14:10.890 --> 0:14:15.015 more mature manner. A current hypothesis in the field of 0:14:15.025 --> 0:14:18.525 brain training and cognitive training is that if we incorporate 0:14:18.534 --> 0:14:23.724 metacognitive reflection in those training programs, kids will become more 0:14:23.734 --> 0:14:27.424 flexible in the way they're engaging executive function as a 0:14:27.434 --> 0:14:30.224 function of how hard the task is and that will 0:14:30.234 --> 0:14:32.695 lead to improvement in performance because they'll be able to 0:14:32.705 --> 0:14:35.075 reflect that, "This is hard. Now I need to think more. 0:14:35.085 --> 0:14:38.215 I can apply these tips and tricks that I've been practising." 0:14:38.484 --> 0:14:41.275 And it might also improve the far transfer so they 0:14:41.284 --> 0:14:44.434 might be able to apply their learning in a different context. 0:14:45.190 --> 0:14:47.729 So that's kind of the background. So our project focus 0:14:47.739 --> 0:14:49.909 on the fact that there are many concepts in science 0:14:49.919 --> 0:14:56.409 and maths that are counterintuitive. So as an example in science, dolphins. 0:14:56.419 --> 0:14:58.940 They're not fish, but they have fins and they live 0:14:58.950 --> 0:15:01.689 in the water, so they kind of look like fish. 0:15:01.689 --> 0:15:05.250 In maths, children learn that five is bigger than three, 0:15:05.260 --> 0:15:07.849 but then they learn negative numbers and minus five is 0:15:07.859 --> 0:15:10.460 now smaller than minus three. So they really have to 0:15:10.469 --> 0:15:13.349 kind of keep going over things that are a bit counter, 0:15:13.359 --> 0:15:16.599 what they've just learned before. So our intervention had two components. 0:15:16.609 --> 0:15:19.130 One was to make children aware of the fact that 0:15:19.140 --> 0:15:21.340 there are so many concepts in maths and science that 0:15:21.349 --> 0:15:23.929 are counterintuitive. Where the first response that comes to your 0:15:23.940 --> 0:15:26.789 mind is incorrect. So, for example, if I ask you 0:15:26.799 --> 0:15:27.869 what do cows drink? 0:15:28.169 --> 0:15:30.080 I want to say milk, but I thought I stopped 0:15:30.090 --> 0:15:30.659 and thought. 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.039 Exactly. So the second way was to encourage children to 0:15:34.049 --> 0:15:36.650 stop and think when they're solving maths and science problems, 0:15:36.659 --> 0:15:39.820 to give them time to inhibit their incorrect, intuitive response 0:15:39.830 --> 0:15:43.270 and favour the correct reasoning. So we called our intervention 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:47.219 "stop and think" to really use a bit more time 0:15:47.229 --> 0:15:49.109 to think about the correct answer. 0:15:49.419 --> 0:15:52.260 Good advice for life in general, I reckon. "Stop and think." So, 0:15:52.270 --> 0:15:55.080 did this approach work? Could you show far transfer? 0:15:55.090 --> 0:15:58.429 So first we were interested, whether we had any improvement 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.479 in maths and science. So, this was run as a 0:16:00.489 --> 0:16:03.229 really large trial. What we call randomised control trial, in 0:16:03.239 --> 0:16:06.880 the UK in 7/8 year olds and 9/10 year olds. 0:16:06.890 --> 0:16:09.880 And it was the teacher was running the intervention. And 0:16:09.890 --> 0:16:12.169 what we found was that after 10 weeks training, there 0:16:12.179 --> 0:16:16.229 was improvement around two months of progress in science and 0:16:16.239 --> 0:16:20.260 one month in math. And these were assessed with standardised 0:16:20.270 --> 0:16:24.919 math and science test, not specifically the counterintuitive problems that 0:16:24.929 --> 0:16:28.119 we had covered in the training. So that suggested some 0:16:28.130 --> 0:16:31.770 near transfer to other types of maths and science problems. 0:16:31.929 --> 0:16:34.289 And we also found that the 9-to-10-year-olds were the ones 0:16:34.299 --> 0:16:38.270 who benefited the most. Maybe because they have better metacognition 0:16:39.169 --> 0:16:42.400 or better inhibitory control, and that enabled them to make 0:16:42.409 --> 0:16:46.146 the most of the training. In terms of far transfer, 0:16:46.146 --> 0:16:49.580 it was interesting, anecdotally, that some teachers reported that some 0:16:49.590 --> 0:16:52.969 children transferred to "stop and think" approach to other school 0:16:52.979 --> 0:16:56.390 subjects like reading. And I think that's quite interesting. And 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:59.010 we don't know whether it's the intervention itself because it 0:16:59.020 --> 0:17:02.950 was metacognition or because it was the teacher doing the intervention. 0:17:03.099 --> 0:17:05.129 And so that was like within the whole class, they 0:17:05.140 --> 0:17:06.959 could kind of keep talking about it. And maybe the 0:17:06.969 --> 0:17:09.319 teacher could say, "Oh, look here, you should stop and 0:17:09.329 --> 0:17:12.109 think about your answer as well when you're, you know, 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.530 reading comprehension, you're understanding that text. What's the question? You 0:17:15.540 --> 0:17:17.938 have to go back and find the answer." Again, the 0:17:17.949 --> 0:17:20.500 first thing comes to mind might not be the correct answer. 0:17:20.569 --> 0:17:23.910 That's super encouraging then, and it's very impressive that a 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.300 2.5 month intervention can lead to an additional two month benefit. 0:17:28.310 --> 0:17:31.589 So very promising indeed. Do you think we will see 0:17:31.609 --> 0:17:36.161 mainstream education becoming increasingly gamified based on work like this 0:17:36.161 --> 0:17:39.540 or do you think cognitive training will be used more selectively? Primarily, 0:17:39.550 --> 0:17:42.920 let's say, for kids who are having particular problems with 0:17:42.930 --> 0:17:43.869 executive functions? 0:17:43.890 --> 0:17:47.390 I think mainstream education is already quite gamified. So, for example, 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.589 my son's primary schools, both previously in London and now 0:17:51.599 --> 0:17:55.300 in Melbourne. They had children use mathematics and English apps 0:17:55.310 --> 0:17:58.339 in the classroom, and then they also encourage their use 0:17:58.349 --> 0:18:01.209 at home. And so, rather than being domain general like 0:18:01.219 --> 0:18:04.119 the cognitive training we were talking about, these apps are 0:18:04.130 --> 0:18:07.500 specific to numeracy and literacy, so they would likely be 0:18:07.510 --> 0:18:11.069 more beneficial than the general apps I was talking about before. 0:18:11.439 --> 0:18:14.229 And one key advantage of this type of program going 0:18:14.239 --> 0:18:17.050 back to the issue of individual differences in children is 0:18:17.060 --> 0:18:19.760 that quite often like a lot of brain training games, 0:18:19.770 --> 0:18:22.899 they are what we call adaptive, so they get harder, 0:18:22.910 --> 0:18:26.069 the better you do. And so there's this concept in 0:18:26.079 --> 0:18:29.959 developmental psychology that's called the zone of proximal development, and 0:18:29.969 --> 0:18:32.650 the idea is that you learn most when you're doing 0:18:32.660 --> 0:18:35.280 something right at the level where it's quite difficult but 0:18:35.290 --> 0:18:38.399 you can still do it, some of it. If it's 0:18:38.410 --> 0:18:40.680 too easy, you don't learn. If it's too hard, you 0:18:40.689 --> 0:18:42.874 don't learn, either. You get quite frustrated, and you can't, 0:18:42.874 --> 0:18:45.349 you don't want to do it anymore. So if done well, 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.729 this adaptive program so you know you don't want the 0:18:47.739 --> 0:18:50.250 progress to be too slow or too fast. It means 0:18:50.260 --> 0:18:52.889 that children can really practise at a sweet spot of 0:18:52.900 --> 0:18:56.419 difficulty for them and that would maximise their learning. So 0:18:56.430 --> 0:18:59.319 that's really an advantage in terms of having these apps 0:18:59.329 --> 0:19:01.170 instead of the whole class and the teacher is saying 0:19:01.180 --> 0:19:03.680 what's two times eight and some children know that very 0:19:03.689 --> 0:19:06.199 well and others don't. Then they can do that by 0:19:06.209 --> 0:19:09.770 themselves at the right level. However, I'm quite conflicted about 0:19:09.780 --> 0:19:12.429 these apps because of the lack of research carried out 0:19:12.439 --> 0:19:15.400 on them. So there are many different apps out there. 0:19:15.410 --> 0:19:18.145 Only a few of them have been designed by researchers 0:19:18.155 --> 0:19:22.984 and built on our cognitive psychology, cognitive neuroscience research, but 0:19:22.994 --> 0:19:25.145 also I'm conflicted because in general, you know there is 0:19:25.155 --> 0:19:27.685 a move to try and minimise screen time in children, 0:19:27.694 --> 0:19:30.515 and if we let them do this work on screen 0:19:30.545 --> 0:19:32.655 at school, and at home. And then it's really hard 0:19:32.665 --> 0:19:34.805 to say, Don't spend too much time on your screen 0:19:34.814 --> 0:19:38.430 because they're like, "Oh, well, I'm doing my maths." So 0:19:38.439 --> 0:19:40.130 I think we still need more evidence 0:19:40.140 --> 0:19:44.030 Beyond cognitive training, what other sorts of interventions can improve 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.180 learning outcomes in schools? I know you've researched effects of 0:19:47.189 --> 0:19:51.060 physical exercise and mindfulness. What's the current state of evidence 0:19:51.069 --> 0:19:52.619 about that sort of intervention? 0:19:52.630 --> 0:19:54.699 Yes, so basically, you can have a whole range of 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:59.489 different ways to try and improve mental health, cognition. And 0:19:59.500 --> 0:20:03.300 mindfulness was another approach where educational practice went ahead of 0:20:03.310 --> 0:20:06.790 the research. In the UK, for example, a lot of 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.649 schools started trying to implement mindfulness training. Um, when not, 0:20:10.660 --> 0:20:12.780 you know, any research had been done at the time. So, 0:20:12.790 --> 0:20:16.239 I've done myself very small-scale research on this trying to 0:20:16.250 --> 0:20:20.339 understand whether mindfulness meditation training may work in the same 0:20:20.349 --> 0:20:23.469 way in adolescents and in adults, and whether it might 0:20:23.479 --> 0:20:29.180 improve executive function, particular attentional control and resisting to emotional distractions. 0:20:29.189 --> 0:20:31.780 So this is because if you know, some of you 0:20:31.790 --> 0:20:34.430 might not have done mindfulness meditation before, but you might 0:20:34.439 --> 0:20:36.569 be told you need for five minutes to focus on 0:20:36.579 --> 0:20:39.959 your breath, and then your mind wanders because it always wanders. 0:20:39.969 --> 0:20:42.150 And then you have to bring it back to the breath, 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.109 notice it and bring it back to the breath. So, 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.979 you have to be able to control what you're tending towards. So, 0:20:46.989 --> 0:20:49.709 I was interested in this in the aspect of executive 0:20:49.719 --> 0:20:53.040 control training. What we found is that both adolescents and 0:20:53.050 --> 0:20:58.448 adults showed improvement in attentional control, and adolescents only also 0:20:58.459 --> 0:21:03.069 showed less brain activity in response to emotional distractions. So, 0:21:03.079 --> 0:21:06.438 we found some positive effects on these two measures, but 0:21:06.449 --> 0:21:09.180 they were small effect. And it's not the fact that, 0:21:09.189 --> 0:21:14.750 you know, everything improved. Interestingly, adolescents actually preferred a relaxation condition, 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.409 which was a control condition because they felt that maybe 0:21:17.420 --> 0:21:20.979 had more immediate effects. So, this is very small scale. 0:21:20.989 --> 0:21:23.770 But in the UK, they run a very large trial 0:21:23.780 --> 0:21:26.739