WEBVTT - DETECTIVES: Surviving a stabbing 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:04.240 A listener production. 0:00:08.730 --> 0:00:13.050 G'day. I'm former police officer Brent Sanders, and for the 0:00:13.050 --> 0:00:17.189 past 25 years, I've dedicated myself to sharing what I've 0:00:17.190 --> 0:00:20.130 learned on the force to the Australian public so they 0:00:20.130 --> 0:00:24.299 can better protect themselves from falling victim to crime. In 0:00:24.540 --> 0:00:28.200 this episode, I'm going to take a slightly different approach 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.770 with my guest. I'm going to probe into the personal 0:00:31.770 --> 0:00:36.390 and emotional experience of policing and what it feels like 0:00:36.420 --> 0:00:40.470 to be with people, be it victims or perpetrators, on 0:00:40.470 --> 0:00:42.900 the worst day of their lives. 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:46.440 I was walking up and I was processing the fact 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.750 and the gravity of just holding someone's hand with their 0:00:48.750 --> 0:00:49.739 last breaths. 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:54.420 Jason Semple started in general duties with the New South 0:00:54.420 --> 0:00:59.700 Wales Police, before eventually joining the Australian Federal Police Specialist 0:00:59.700 --> 0:01:03.660 Response Group, where he was deployed on peacekeeping missions in 0:01:03.660 --> 0:01:09.150 places like Afghanistan and the Solomon Islands. After nine years overseas, 0:01:09.150 --> 0:01:12.899 Jason returned home and step back into his New South 0:01:12.900 --> 0:01:18.509 Wales Police uniform. To begin this chat, we're going back 0:01:18.510 --> 0:01:22.860 to 1998. It's Jason's second week on the job as 0:01:22.860 --> 0:01:26.759 a probationary constable with the New South Wales Police in Sydney. 0:01:27.300 --> 0:01:30.209 He's off duty and walking home with a mate after 0:01:30.209 --> 0:01:31.800 a few quiet drinks. 0:01:35.700 --> 0:01:36.180 Um. 0:01:36.630 --> 0:01:39.720 It's something it did turn horribly wrong, and it, um. 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.830 I suppose no one's ever prepared for it, especially in 0:01:43.830 --> 0:01:47.220 law enforcement. You know, the risk is there. But, um, 0:01:47.490 --> 0:01:51.150 it's always that old story. Won't happen to me. And 0:01:51.660 --> 0:01:54.090 two weeks after coming out of the academy, I'm lying 0:01:54.090 --> 0:01:57.810 in the gutter, you know, thinking I'm 100% convinced that 0:01:57.810 --> 0:02:00.900 I'm going to die right there. Right then on a 0:02:00.900 --> 0:02:04.110 Friday night and a wet, cold street in Sydney. So 0:02:04.110 --> 0:02:08.070 it was, uh, not the, uh, start to law enforcement 0:02:08.070 --> 0:02:11.160 that you're looking for, but we don't get to choose, 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.889 you know, when these events occur. So two weeks earlier 0:02:13.889 --> 0:02:16.980 at the police academy, it was Friday the 13th, and 0:02:16.980 --> 0:02:20.490 I actually made a joke. Is anyone else not thinking 0:02:20.490 --> 0:02:22.620 this is a really bad day to walk out on 0:02:22.620 --> 0:02:26.400 our passing out parade? Been Friday the 13th. And so 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.760 I suppose my joke on that occasion sort of came back. 0:02:29.910 --> 0:02:31.740 Came back to bite me mate. I went into the 0:02:31.740 --> 0:02:34.110 police academy on April Fool's Day, so maybe there's a 0:02:34.110 --> 0:02:38.580 connection there now on this, on this night, 28th of February, 0:02:38.580 --> 0:02:41.970 you're with Peter Forsyth. Uh, Brian Neville. You'd been just 0:02:41.970 --> 0:02:44.730 out having a couple of social beers, and my understanding 0:02:44.730 --> 0:02:48.900 is you're walking back through Ultimo, and this is pretty 0:02:48.900 --> 0:02:52.260 close to to Brian Forsyth's house. You're within 100m or so. 0:02:52.260 --> 0:02:53.820 His wife, couple of kids. 0:02:53.820 --> 0:02:57.600 Yeah. So, you know, we dropped Peter off earlier in 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.580 his shift. In our shift, he had to do a 0:02:59.580 --> 0:03:05.700 prisoner escort flying a young offender interstate. And, um, I 0:03:05.700 --> 0:03:07.829 was actually really well behaved. I was drinking mid strength, 0:03:08.250 --> 0:03:10.230 you know, so no one was intoxicated. And, you know, 0:03:10.230 --> 0:03:12.030 walking back down the street, you'd need to take into 0:03:12.030 --> 0:03:14.700 account two that I was wearing my police uniform, but 0:03:14.700 --> 0:03:16.470 I had a t shirt on over the top, you 0:03:16.470 --> 0:03:20.550 know quite clear to anyone in our business. You know, 0:03:20.550 --> 0:03:23.550 the criminals obviously have just as good at recognizing us 0:03:23.550 --> 0:03:28.109 as we are them. And a young bloke incredibly approached 0:03:28.110 --> 0:03:33.090 and tried to sell us an ecstasy tablet. Um, and 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.110 I was actually just gobsmacked. The, I suppose, the forwardness 0:03:37.110 --> 0:03:39.780 of it. I think he was only about 15 or 16, 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.050 and obviously because it was so close to Pete's house 0:03:43.050 --> 0:03:45.750 and some sort of activity like that's occurring near where 0:03:45.750 --> 0:03:48.150 you're where you live and where you've got young kids 0:03:48.150 --> 0:03:50.850 and you're in the police. You don't turn a blind 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:53.730 eye to it. So, you know, Pete, you may have 0:03:53.730 --> 0:03:57.360 been a probationary constable at the time. I just basically 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.600 kind of watch and listen. And, you know, he had 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.990 a conversation with this young bloke and then who indicated 0:04:03.990 --> 0:04:07.890 that the actual drugs were, um, with his brother across 0:04:07.890 --> 0:04:11.130 the road, you know, so a quick conversation, he's gone 0:04:11.130 --> 0:04:16.170 over and the offender has come over, obviously, to sell 0:04:16.170 --> 0:04:19.950 us the tablet in his mind at that point, you know, 0:04:19.950 --> 0:04:24.150 Pete and Brian really took charge. Um, he was under 0:04:24.150 --> 0:04:27.239 no illusion that we were police and that he was 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:32.070 being detained. And Pete and Brian were directing him to 0:04:32.070 --> 0:04:34.890 get some identification out. He had a bum bag, you know, 0:04:34.890 --> 0:04:37.650 zipper front bum bag on at the time, it sort 0:04:37.650 --> 0:04:39.270 of sitting on his haunches and he was just taking 0:04:39.270 --> 0:04:41.970 a little bit too much time, you know, rifling through 0:04:41.970 --> 0:04:45.180 the bum bag at that point. Pete. So I get up, 0:04:45.180 --> 0:04:47.729 you know, it's just taken too long. So if you're 0:04:47.730 --> 0:04:49.679 not going to do it properly, we will at a 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.859 certain point. Then he's basically said to the words, the 0:04:52.860 --> 0:04:56.130 fact I'm out of here, you know, and pushed off. 0:04:56.130 --> 0:04:58.860 And at that point I was on the far left 0:04:58.860 --> 0:05:01.230 and he pushed off. I pushed him back into against 0:05:01.230 --> 0:05:04.770 the doors because obviously he's not going anywhere. And, um, 0:05:05.610 --> 0:05:08.760 I felt a couple of like, punches, which I thought 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:10.830 they were punches. So one to my chest and then 0:05:11.070 --> 0:05:15.450 one of my abdominal area and um, thinking, is that 0:05:15.450 --> 0:05:19.250 the best you got? But, um. From a psychology point 0:05:19.250 --> 0:05:22.160 of view, my brain had not detected what was actually 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:27.560 occurring and. Then I hear Bryan yell out, knife, knife, knife, 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.380 you know? And he has actually pushed myself and Peter 0:05:30.500 --> 0:05:32.660 out of the way because he could see what we 0:05:32.660 --> 0:05:36.350 obviously we we didn't see. And as soon as Brian 0:05:36.350 --> 0:05:40.580 said that this is all happening in microseconds, right. You 0:05:40.580 --> 0:05:43.310 wouldn't think it would occur. But I've actually even still 0:05:43.310 --> 0:05:46.370 at that point in time, I actually my brain starts 0:05:46.370 --> 0:05:49.070 putting two and two together and go, hang on is 0:05:49.070 --> 0:05:52.549 a knife. I've definitely felt some impacts and looked down. 0:05:52.550 --> 0:05:56.270 I pulled my shirt up and then, you know, literally 0:05:56.270 --> 0:06:00.650 blood was spraying out of my abdominal wound. At that point, 0:06:00.650 --> 0:06:05.330 the offender has run off with Brian in pursuit. Pete's 0:06:05.330 --> 0:06:09.320 turned to me spawn a few times and basically laid 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:11.900 me down into the gutter, and he's yelling at the 0:06:11.900 --> 0:06:15.320 top of his voice, you know, trying to alert any 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.480 of the locals that are because there's people living straight 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:20.720 across the road in those dwellings. Um, so he's yelling 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.270 at the top of his voice to get help, and 0:06:23.270 --> 0:06:25.160 lights are turning on. So, you know, obviously there's a 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.280 bit of activity. Then he's he's turned me sort of 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.470 leaning over me. I'm sort of half in the gutter, 0:06:30.470 --> 0:06:33.680 half on the pathway. And he goes, show me, because 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:37.279 I've got my hand over my, my abdominal wound. So 0:06:37.370 --> 0:06:38.900 just give me a look. And I took my hand 0:06:38.900 --> 0:06:44.450 off and it's like obviously bleeding profusely. And he's, you know, 0:06:44.900 --> 0:06:46.790 put my hand back on and he goes off, you know, 0:06:47.150 --> 0:06:49.520 whatever you do like I'll say it how he said it. 0:06:49.550 --> 0:06:53.419 He said, keep your hand on that. And I was like, no, 0:06:53.420 --> 0:06:59.690 no problem. And um. It's the most surreal, life altering. 0:07:00.140 --> 0:07:03.710 It's even to this day. The fear is tangible. You 0:07:03.710 --> 0:07:05.630 could pick it up with a forklift and move it around. 0:07:05.630 --> 0:07:10.370 It's a real entity anyway. A very short period of 0:07:10.370 --> 0:07:16.140 time elapsed. And Pete collapsed on top of me. And 0:07:16.140 --> 0:07:19.440 at that time I actually just thought, it's funny, you know, 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.240 you're in shock and there's a lot of there's a 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.830 lot going on. And I thought Pete had fainted because 0:07:25.950 --> 0:07:30.000 he'd been talking to me. There is no external indication 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.150 that he'd been injured. There's no blood on him. Except 0:07:33.540 --> 0:07:36.690 for most likely mine. It was one of those moments 0:07:36.690 --> 0:07:41.130 where it's a little bit confusing, but you become self-absorbed. 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.290 I think it's the one time you can be narcissistic 0:07:43.290 --> 0:07:46.530 and think about yourself because you're in this position and. 0:07:46.890 --> 0:07:50.190 And it's quite dire. Um, I actually struggled with this 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:56.160 for a long time afterwards, not thinking towards him, maybe 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:57.900 like I should have. Right. But at the end of 0:07:57.900 --> 0:08:00.210 the day, you react in the way. You're only a 0:08:00.210 --> 0:08:01.080 young fella. 0:08:01.410 --> 0:08:02.490 How old were you? Just out of. 0:08:02.490 --> 0:08:03.720 Interest. 25. 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.600 And you had a second knife wound as well. Were 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:07.950 you aware of that at the time. 0:08:07.950 --> 0:08:08.430 Or at the time? 0:08:08.550 --> 0:08:09.390 Not at the time. 0:08:09.390 --> 0:08:12.750 So that one was directly over my heart, but the 0:08:12.750 --> 0:08:15.180 rib caught it, so it split the rib. So it 0:08:15.180 --> 0:08:17.310 did a bit of damage, but it never went through 0:08:17.310 --> 0:08:20.160 the rib. So the rib did its job as a 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.030 part of your anatomy. Even if five millimetres either side 0:08:24.030 --> 0:08:27.270 of where that knife struck, it would have slid off 0:08:27.270 --> 0:08:29.280 your rib and going straight in and wouldn't be talking 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:34.080 to you. So it's like, yeah, that's uh, that's quite horrific. 0:08:34.900 --> 0:08:38.380 So Pete is lying on top of you. You're thinking yourself, 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.610 I'm done here. I'm gone. Yeah. And you're thinking, I 0:08:42.610 --> 0:08:44.680 don't know, but you're thinking, I don't know what's happened 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:46.780 to Pete. But he. Maybe he's fainted because of all 0:08:46.780 --> 0:08:50.110 the blood. Maybe something's happened. But you're not thinking. No, 0:08:50.110 --> 0:08:52.780 I'm not thinking. He's been in any way injured. Stabbed 0:08:52.780 --> 0:08:55.329 or anything. And then does Brian come back? 0:08:55.330 --> 0:09:00.040 Yes. So during that period where Pete is, like, screaming 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:04.750 to get people's attention. Yeah. That also triggered Brian as 0:09:04.750 --> 0:09:07.750 he was in pursuit to sort of look back. You know, 0:09:07.750 --> 0:09:10.630 Brian got down to there's a major intersection and the 0:09:10.630 --> 0:09:14.109 offenders turned right to go into a very busy part 0:09:14.110 --> 0:09:17.770 of Sydney and saw at that point saw that both 0:09:17.770 --> 0:09:20.710 of us were on the ground and then realized that 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.459 getting the offender isn't as important as potentially coming back 0:09:24.460 --> 0:09:25.900 and looking after us. 0:09:26.770 --> 0:09:28.780 When he took off after the offender, which is that 0:09:28.780 --> 0:09:31.510 natural instinct to do that. He's seen the knife, but 0:09:31.510 --> 0:09:34.420 he didn't see you or Peter gets up, so he 0:09:34.420 --> 0:09:37.660 probably had no idea taking off that you'd been expecting. 0:09:37.660 --> 0:09:38.260 Us to be right. 0:09:38.350 --> 0:09:39.220 Right behind him. 0:09:39.220 --> 0:09:41.350 Yeah. And then when he's turned around and we're both 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.410 lying on the ground. Yeah, he's obviously the enormity of 0:09:44.410 --> 0:09:46.929 of that has hit him. And he's always come, come 0:09:46.929 --> 0:09:51.550 back to us. Um, when he got up to me, um, 0:09:51.820 --> 0:09:54.520 I was still cognizant of everything around me to a 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.569 hyper level, actually, I remember I was focusing on, like, 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.500 there was a river of my blood going down the pathway, and, 0:10:02.500 --> 0:10:05.260 and I was watching it go over the, um, the 0:10:05.260 --> 0:10:08.439 lip of the gutter. And that was, you know, one 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.440 of those visuals where you go, well, there's no way 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.199 in the world that I'm surviving this, you know? And 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.080 it was just sheer like I said, it's a tangible 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:25.720 entity of fear. It's a very overwhelming self-preservation. Um, period. Um, 0:10:26.230 --> 0:10:30.550 when Brian came up, he's pulled, paid off. Our legs 0:10:30.550 --> 0:10:32.860 are sort of tangled. And the next thing you know, 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.610 Brian's doing CPR and I'm, like, going, what is. He 0:10:36.610 --> 0:10:39.310 had a heart attack because there's no wound. There's no 0:10:39.309 --> 0:10:43.510 visible injury whatsoever. Of course, you can look at it 0:10:43.510 --> 0:10:46.599 now and go, you just got stabbed. Well, but it 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:51.760 was just a sheer lack of, um, any external visible indicator. 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.940 That was, I suppose, through the confusion for me. And 0:10:54.940 --> 0:10:56.290 you're not thinking it your best. 0:10:56.970 --> 0:11:00.810 So Brian's obviously aware because he's doing CPR that, uh, 0:11:00.809 --> 0:11:05.189 Pete's in a bad way. And ambulances, the paramedics arrive. 0:11:05.190 --> 0:11:08.250 Ambulance is called. Who's first on scene at that point? Ah. 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:10.770 You know, there's a lot of things that came together, 0:11:10.860 --> 0:11:13.920 you know, as with a lot of tragedy, there's all 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.040 these little intricate nuances that sometimes come together that put 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.650 someone somewhere that x, Y, and Z happens, you know, 0:11:19.890 --> 0:11:23.400 and you think it's incredibly unlucky that x, Y, and 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.709 Z came together in that person. This has happened to them. 0:11:25.710 --> 0:11:29.970 That can work for you as well. Yes. So by 0:11:29.970 --> 0:11:33.570 Meg Gilchrist, God bless her. There was two ambulance buses 0:11:33.570 --> 0:11:36.510 if you want to call them, their crews from different 0:11:36.510 --> 0:11:39.870 areas catching up for a coffee, you know, Friday night, 0:11:39.870 --> 0:11:42.150 busy shift. You know, the type of work they do. 0:11:42.150 --> 0:11:48.540 It's incredible. So lucky for me, they were literally 60s away. So, yeah, 0:11:48.540 --> 0:11:51.600 I was really lucky. But you know, once again, the guilt, 0:11:51.809 --> 0:11:54.600 the guilt that I had to deal with later because 0:11:54.780 --> 0:11:57.750 when they arrived, they go straight to Pete and start 0:11:57.750 --> 0:12:01.860 trying to give lifesaving first aid. And I'm like going, 0:12:02.220 --> 0:12:03.929 what is going on with Pete? You know, like, is 0:12:03.929 --> 0:12:07.320 it very confused? And then I'm here by myself bleeding 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.989 profusely and no one's with me, you know, I mean, 0:12:09.990 --> 0:12:14.310 like it was like it's almost a selfish self-preservation, um, 0:12:14.309 --> 0:12:15.959 you know, mentality gets in, but. 0:12:16.260 --> 0:12:19.860 You're also just dealing with the information that you're processing, and, 0:12:19.860 --> 0:12:22.260 and there's a lot of confusion there, and you're in 0:12:22.260 --> 0:12:25.020 shock and. Hold on. Yeah. It's it's not something you 0:12:25.020 --> 0:12:25.680 can prepare for. 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.480 That period of time feels like I could talk about 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.579 it in a detail that you would swear it went 0:12:29.580 --> 0:12:33.180 for 30 minutes, but it's only two minutes. Yes. You know. Yes. 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:37.050 So obviously the second crew come over and start, you know, 0:12:37.050 --> 0:12:40.400 working on me. Um. Well, I don't think I was 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:43.100 really one of their best patients. If you. You know, 0:12:43.100 --> 0:12:46.069 if you talk to VI. Mainly because I was just 0:12:46.070 --> 0:12:49.819 so hyper alert to the position I was in. 0:12:49.940 --> 0:12:53.660 So both you and Peter taken to local hospital, it 0:12:53.660 --> 0:12:56.930 would have been what, RPA close to there, I suppose. Yeah. 0:12:56.929 --> 0:12:59.600 So we're not far away, which is in my favor 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.650 as well. Um. What I didn't realize is, you know, 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:07.790 before I was getting transported, um, the commander who was 0:13:07.790 --> 0:13:12.260 from City Central when he arrived, he looked over at 0:13:12.260 --> 0:13:14.570 the two of us and go, someone go get a 0:13:14.570 --> 0:13:18.320 dying declaration of me. He was like, there is no 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:22.220 way his surviving those injuries, and not with the amount 0:13:22.220 --> 0:13:24.890 of blood that was around. Um, you know, when I 0:13:24.890 --> 0:13:27.470 talked to him later, he was convinced in his mind, 0:13:27.980 --> 0:13:30.710 I was most at risk. But, you know, which is weird, 0:13:30.710 --> 0:13:33.110 because Pete had already passed realistically. 0:13:33.110 --> 0:13:35.510 So he. Peter passed at the scene. 0:13:35.929 --> 0:13:39.020 Yeah, he'd already at that point, um, that was still 0:13:39.020 --> 0:13:41.420 trying to stabilize me. And they and Pete had left 0:13:41.420 --> 0:13:45.470 in an ambulance. So that boss, obviously, if Pete had 0:13:45.470 --> 0:13:49.040 still been there, they were taking the hospital and still 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.640 obviously performing CPR all the way there. When he saw 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.040 me and the injuries and but, you know, he was 0:13:55.250 --> 0:13:58.340 obviously of that opinion that wasn't going to make it. 0:13:59.970 --> 0:14:02.490 You lost, like, five liters of blood or something? Yeah, 0:14:02.820 --> 0:14:04.590 just on five. How many do we have? 0:14:04.620 --> 0:14:09.000 I don't know, five liters. And you know the the 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:13.470 circumstantial aspects again, you know. There was like a chief 0:14:13.470 --> 0:14:16.770 surgeon been doing some training at RPA that week. So 0:14:16.770 --> 0:14:20.760 in terms of the injury I had, he's delivering training 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.570 to other surgeons on procedural, you know, improvements or whatever 0:14:24.570 --> 0:14:27.660 in that space. He's he was at RPA. So you know. 0:14:28.500 --> 0:14:30.330 You know, I roll up there and I've got this, 0:14:30.330 --> 0:14:32.970 this incredible, you know, surge in there. 0:14:33.910 --> 0:14:36.940 Any pain at that point because you've not mentioned it? No. 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.030 And that's that's a bizarre thing too, isn't it? That's 0:14:40.030 --> 0:14:42.730 sort of a scene. That sort of incident should be 0:14:42.730 --> 0:14:46.930 connected to being an almost excruciating pain as you're clinging 0:14:46.930 --> 0:14:49.360 on literally for life on the footpath. But you've not 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.880 mentioned it once. There was no no memory of any pain. 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:57.640 No pain. No. Your body just diverts energy and attention elsewhere. 0:14:58.060 --> 0:15:00.970 There was a few times I felt things about it. 0:15:00.970 --> 0:15:03.490 I think it was just so there was the gravity 0:15:03.490 --> 0:15:07.300 of it was so immense that it overrode, you know, 0:15:07.300 --> 0:15:08.980 because at the end of the day, it's, you know, 0:15:08.980 --> 0:15:11.350 it's a cut through your skin. So it's not like 0:15:11.350 --> 0:15:13.240 I was broken leg or hanging off. 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:17.530 So at what point did you become aware that Peter 0:15:18.010 --> 0:15:18.550 had gone? 0:15:18.580 --> 0:15:22.210 I asked quite a few times prior to going into surgery. 0:15:22.780 --> 0:15:25.720 It was like, oh, he's fine, um, he's fine. He's 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.670 in the next room, you know, so there's a few 0:15:27.670 --> 0:15:31.270 little white lies, you know, said to me, probably hopefully 0:15:31.270 --> 0:15:35.200 calm me down. I was happy to know that. So 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.920 I just basically stared at a, uh, one of the 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.580 diagnostic machines and tried to control my blood pressure and 0:15:42.580 --> 0:15:46.450 my pulse, you know, trying to calm myself. And I 0:15:46.450 --> 0:15:48.610 can thank Mick Drury. Um, I don't know if you 0:15:48.610 --> 0:15:51.790 know who my crew is from the old Blue murder. 0:15:51.970 --> 0:15:52.270 He's an. 0:15:52.270 --> 0:15:53.200 Author now. Yeah. 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.600 Yeah, yeah. And he's a is a Neddy Smith. 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:55.930 Sort of. 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.390 Yeah, yeah. Out of that era. Like one of the 0:15:58.690 --> 0:16:02.560 most talented undercover operatives that probably New South Wales had. 0:16:02.710 --> 0:16:05.650 But I'd been reading his book the night before, and 0:16:05.650 --> 0:16:08.950 I got to a point where there was assassination attempt 0:16:08.950 --> 0:16:11.470 on him at his home in North Sydney. So I 0:16:11.470 --> 0:16:13.330 got to that chapter where I knew this is a 0:16:13.330 --> 0:16:17.870 chapter who gets shot in. And I nearly didn't read it. 0:16:17.870 --> 0:16:19.790 And then I'll go, no, I have to read that 0:16:19.790 --> 0:16:22.040 before I go to sleep. So I read that chapter, 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.460 and in that bit, Mick refers to the fact he's 0:16:25.460 --> 0:16:29.090 lying on his floor in his kitchen, bleeding profusely, even 0:16:29.090 --> 0:16:32.600 less understanding of first aid training back in those days. 0:16:33.230 --> 0:16:35.120 And he goes, he knew the only thing you could 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:39.860 really do to give himself some level of hope was calm. 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.200 If I stay calm, I don't go into shock and 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.170 I don't bleed as much. You know, so I'm reading 0:16:45.170 --> 0:16:47.870 that night before, you know, a lot of people say 0:16:47.870 --> 0:16:50.870 when a certain incidents occur, you know, their life flashes 0:16:50.870 --> 0:16:56.360 before their eyes. Obviously, some degree people have different experiences, 0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.290 but I'd rather use the analogy. It's like your brain, 0:17:00.290 --> 0:17:02.990 you've now got an issue that you really don't have 0:17:02.990 --> 0:17:06.380 any expertise to fix, and your brain's just searching for 0:17:06.470 --> 0:17:09.320 a way like a like you've done a Google search. 0:17:09.710 --> 0:17:12.649 What do I do here? And so it's going to everything, 0:17:12.650 --> 0:17:16.100 every exposure you've ever had to trying to lock onto something. 0:17:16.700 --> 0:17:19.640 My brain locked onto what Mick had said in his book. 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:24.449 And so that was I was like, um. Pathologically trying 0:17:24.450 --> 0:17:26.730 to remain calm. You know, even when people come up 0:17:26.730 --> 0:17:29.879 and ask me a question, I'd literally, probably rudely, a 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.550 few times tell people to where to go because you're 0:17:32.550 --> 0:17:37.020 interrupting my my concentration on being calm, if that makes sense. Yeah. 0:17:37.380 --> 0:17:40.080 And you go back to your to answer your question, 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:44.430 I woke up the next day. So Saturday morning and 0:17:45.060 --> 0:17:47.910 you know, it's like when you come out of anesthesia, 0:17:48.900 --> 0:17:50.520 I've got the police commissioner at the end of my 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.970 bed and, you know, all these people and, um, I mean, 0:17:53.970 --> 0:17:57.419 I had this level of elation that you couldn't, you know, 0:17:57.420 --> 0:18:01.020 this almost the same gravity as what? The fear I'd 0:18:01.020 --> 0:18:03.330 had the night before. It's like, oh, I cannot believe it. 0:18:03.330 --> 0:18:08.369 I'm here. And then the the follow on questions on Pete, 0:18:08.369 --> 0:18:12.510 and you get told that he's actually passed away. So, 0:18:12.510 --> 0:18:15.930 you know, derails that, um, elation pretty quick. 0:18:16.170 --> 0:18:20.010 And that's there's another emotion that experience called what you 0:18:20.010 --> 0:18:22.860 will that you just can't prepare for. So there's, there's 0:18:22.859 --> 0:18:26.190 the elation of I've survived matched against the fact that 0:18:26.190 --> 0:18:28.709 you might your colleague who was trying to save you 0:18:28.710 --> 0:18:31.800 has passed away. Would it be fair to say, Jason, 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.230 at that time you experienced almost a bit of guilt? 0:18:34.230 --> 0:18:35.190 Is that one of the emotions. 0:18:35.460 --> 0:18:36.060 Amount of guilt? 0:18:36.060 --> 0:18:38.250 Yeah. Yeah. Is that still with you today? 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.700 Uh, no, because I've been able to process it, um, 0:18:41.700 --> 0:18:44.909 and put it in its true in its proper context. Yeah. 0:18:44.910 --> 0:18:48.240 Especially sort of really think about the true timelines of 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.270 what was occurring at the time. Yes. Um, and there's 0:18:51.270 --> 0:18:52.980 no way to go back and change it. 0:18:52.980 --> 0:18:55.169 But it's something that you carry for, for a period 0:18:55.170 --> 0:18:56.909 of time as you're trying to, as you're trying to 0:18:56.910 --> 0:18:57.960 process it all. 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.869 Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a tough one, but it's 0:19:00.869 --> 0:19:03.510 just one. You just got to process it. And um, 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:08.190 I suppose learn to get to some point where you're 0:19:08.190 --> 0:19:11.100 at peace with any decisions you did or didn't make. 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:15.240 So you eventually, of course, you know, there would have 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:19.409 been quite a substantial period of hospitalization, rehabilitation, the whole 0:19:19.410 --> 0:19:23.040 nine yards. At some point you're back in that uniform. 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.830 You're back out on the street. How does that look? 0:19:25.830 --> 0:19:28.500 How does that feel? 25 years of age, you've lost 0:19:28.500 --> 0:19:30.840 a colleague. You've come as close as anyone can ever 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:34.020 come to losing their life. That's got to give you 0:19:34.020 --> 0:19:38.010 a different perspective. Things must change in your outlook. How 0:19:38.010 --> 0:19:39.000 does how does that work? 0:19:39.300 --> 0:19:44.940 It definitely matured me overnight. Yeah. And I suppose just 0:19:45.300 --> 0:19:49.740 my awareness of everything around me supercharged, you know, because 0:19:49.740 --> 0:19:53.310 you do get complacent. You do get comfortable in environments, 0:19:53.310 --> 0:19:57.899 and you're probably not overlaying the amount of, um, potential 0:19:57.900 --> 0:20:00.270 threat that you're going to every single time you go 0:20:00.270 --> 0:20:03.330 to a job. Yeah. It's just like, um, now I'm 0:20:03.330 --> 0:20:07.350 in uniform, and I know that the most innocuous job 0:20:07.350 --> 0:20:09.720 can go so badly. 0:20:25.500 --> 0:20:28.260 Ten years down the track, you take your career in 0:20:28.260 --> 0:20:31.050 a in a slightly different direction. You step across and 0:20:31.050 --> 0:20:34.260 join the Australian Federal Police in a very high level, 0:20:34.260 --> 0:20:39.780 highly trained environment. And that led to deployment in, amongst 0:20:39.780 --> 0:20:43.889 other places, the Solomon Islands. Can you just give us 0:20:43.890 --> 0:20:48.119 some background to that transition to the AFP and the 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:49.290 path that that took you on? 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.750 Yeah, that's a job on the brush over quickly. But 0:20:51.750 --> 0:20:54.990 the you know, so after the, you know, the stabbing, 0:20:54.990 --> 0:20:59.430 you know, if you fast forwarding I'd been selected, you know, 0:20:59.430 --> 0:21:04.199 done the selection program and trained up and operational uh 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.890 member of the New South Wales Police tactical operations unit 0:21:08.190 --> 0:21:11.910 and I was one of their branches, explosive, very trained 0:21:12.180 --> 0:21:15.630 and a sniper in there. And, um, there was an 0:21:15.630 --> 0:21:21.030 opportunity to apply the same type of, um, tactical policing 0:21:21.630 --> 0:21:25.139 in a federal context with the federal police, with some 0:21:25.140 --> 0:21:29.010 deploy ability involved. So, you know, they wanted a TAC team, 0:21:29.010 --> 0:21:32.820 they could do domestic, um, whether it was counter-terrorism or 0:21:32.820 --> 0:21:36.930 serious crime, you know, serious organised crime and then also 0:21:37.109 --> 0:21:42.300 used as an asset for Australian government for overseas, whether it's, um, 0:21:42.660 --> 0:21:47.730 you know, a stabilisation in Timor or, um, Solomon Islands 0:21:47.730 --> 0:21:53.639 or whatever the role was. So referencing Solomon's, um, my 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.880 role in that operational response group, it was called at 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:00.840 the time, it's now the Sri. So basically the federal 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:05.310 TAC teams, myself and other guy ran their sniper capability. 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:10.350 Solomon Islands was um, part of the the Ramsi mission 0:22:10.350 --> 0:22:14.010 over there. So it was a stabilisation mission after the 0:22:14.010 --> 0:22:17.790 military had got it to a point where it's reasonably 0:22:17.790 --> 0:22:21.000 stable there. Then they transitioned over to a law enforcement 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:25.440 led stabilisation program, which is actually lauded by a lot 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.490 of overseas governments going what Australia did in that context 0:22:29.490 --> 0:22:32.129 was actually very unique and very successful. 0:22:32.850 --> 0:22:35.880 And any of those deployments over that time that that 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.340 come to mind, any anyone that can give us a 0:22:38.340 --> 0:22:41.790 bit of a spotlight on. Yeah, what you were doing there. 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:46.180 You know, obviously it's a very unique environment to, um, 0:22:46.180 --> 0:22:50.200 you're talking proper jungle. You know, it's the most likely 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:52.659 place on the planet. You're going to get malaria out 0:22:52.660 --> 0:22:57.310 of anywhere on Earth. Solomon Islands is number one. There's crocodiles. There's, um, 0:22:57.310 --> 0:23:02.830 ex militia. We had a particular militia individual. And you've 0:23:02.830 --> 0:23:05.290 got to understand some of these. The Civil War they'd had, 0:23:05.290 --> 0:23:09.489 they're now over. So they weren't militia anymore. They were 0:23:09.490 --> 0:23:12.760 just militia. So we had our like our top ten 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:16.930 that we were just sort of systematically hunting down and arresting. 0:23:17.140 --> 0:23:19.960 And there's a there's another layer of complexity when you're 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:23.380 hunting down people who are armed overseas in the jungle, 0:23:23.500 --> 0:23:26.410 you know, if we killed them, that's a deemed a failure. 0:23:26.410 --> 0:23:31.660 If anyone, anyone, offender included, is harmed or killed. So 0:23:32.470 --> 0:23:37.930 with some information to come in for that particular militia individual, 0:23:38.290 --> 0:23:41.740 it actually come from a couple of our sources. And 0:23:41.740 --> 0:23:46.480 there reasoning was because they were terrorizing their village areas. 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:48.790 I don't think that's sort of naturally inclined to dob 0:23:48.790 --> 0:23:52.180 on someone, but it was like, actually, we need this 0:23:52.180 --> 0:23:57.040 guy away from our kids and and our family environments. So, 0:23:57.310 --> 0:24:00.010 you know, we met with some guys, made sure that 0:24:00.010 --> 0:24:02.650 the information that they were giving us was credible, and 0:24:02.650 --> 0:24:04.720 then put together a mission plan that you would back 0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:09.070 here in, in Australia, likely from a in that smack format. Um, 0:24:09.070 --> 0:24:13.300 so very carefully planned out, you know, missions requirements and 0:24:13.300 --> 0:24:18.940 who was doing what. We were at um, JBR in Guadalcanal. 0:24:18.940 --> 0:24:21.670 We were going to motor five hours down the coast 0:24:21.850 --> 0:24:27.100 stage 2 or 3km offshore, and then covertly insert 1:00 0:24:27.100 --> 0:24:32.470 in the morning using, um, rubber inflatable boats. The sources, 0:24:32.470 --> 0:24:34.720 you know, that were going to be in situ. I'd 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:39.280 given them some, um, like er asylum sticks and given 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:41.590 them some direction. Say, I want you to put it like, 0:24:41.590 --> 0:24:44.770 you know, this many steps apart, 20m apart. And I 0:24:44.770 --> 0:24:47.200 want you to hang it up, you know, at least 0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.210 you know. So six, eight feet in the air off 0:24:49.210 --> 0:24:51.790 one of the trees. So when we're coming in, we're 0:24:51.790 --> 0:24:55.000 going to have reasonably pinpointed where we want to meet you. 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:57.969 But that's our visual recognition because just in case it 0:24:57.970 --> 0:25:01.390 changes due to some sort of environmental, um, and. 0:25:01.390 --> 0:25:05.409 What you're talking about is, is these, um, sign points, 0:25:05.410 --> 0:25:07.780 if you will, that can only be picked up with not, 0:25:07.869 --> 0:25:10.720 not vision goggles. So but and you've got some folks, 0:25:10.720 --> 0:25:14.260 insiders in there that are almost guiding you into where 0:25:14.260 --> 0:25:15.130 you need to be. 0:25:15.130 --> 0:25:17.440 Yeah. And those locals did a great job, to be 0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:19.510 honest with you. Some of the the locals would walk 0:25:19.510 --> 0:25:21.129 in with you at nighttime. Are you going, how is 0:25:21.130 --> 0:25:24.700 this guy doing what he's doing? Like I'm struggling. It's 0:25:24.700 --> 0:25:29.290 stinking hot. And, um, I'm using the latest, you know, 0:25:29.290 --> 0:25:33.159 $30,000 MG systems. And I'm looking at this guy, and 0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:35.710 he's walking with no shoes on, and he's doing exactly 0:25:35.710 --> 0:25:38.980 the same job. Yeah. I was like, going, you know, 0:25:38.980 --> 0:25:41.050 we might think we're cool, but that guy's a little 0:25:41.050 --> 0:25:43.330 bit cooler, you know? Anyway, because we've got to be 0:25:43.330 --> 0:25:46.870 careful too, because the, um, as you'd expect, having some 0:25:46.869 --> 0:25:49.780 foreign team roll into your village, it's not going to 0:25:49.780 --> 0:25:52.990 be always, um, met with open arms, depending on where 0:25:52.990 --> 0:25:56.920 it was in the Solomon Islands. All in chain. So 0:25:56.920 --> 0:25:59.530 we need to do what we we do as quickly 0:25:59.530 --> 0:26:02.290 and efficiently and safely for everyone as we can. But 0:26:02.290 --> 0:26:05.170 we can't muck around either because, you know, then you 0:26:05.170 --> 0:26:08.710 sort of introduce a whole different level of complexity. In 0:26:08.710 --> 0:26:13.150 this occasion, our quarry had an attempt to flee, but 0:26:13.150 --> 0:26:15.010 the measures we'd put in place, he was sort of 0:26:15.010 --> 0:26:19.090 wrapped up pretty quickly and without any, um, significant injury. 0:26:19.420 --> 0:26:21.760 And then what happens? You take him back to Honiara 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:23.680 or something like that, and it's. And he's handed over 0:26:23.680 --> 0:26:24.850 to local police. Yeah. 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:26.680 I mean, we're still in the middle of nowhere. So 0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:29.379 it's like, yeah. Quick apologies to the, the chief of 0:26:29.380 --> 0:26:32.350 that village. So, you know, we're doing this for your 0:26:32.350 --> 0:26:35.170 benefit just as much as the rest of the country. 0:26:35.260 --> 0:26:37.780 And then we just got out of there as quick 0:26:37.780 --> 0:26:40.330 as we can as soon as we got to our shoreline, 0:26:40.600 --> 0:26:43.780 you know, vessel came in because obviously it didn't have 0:26:43.780 --> 0:26:46.810 to be covert anymore. Pick him up, and then, you know, 0:26:46.810 --> 0:26:51.200 they'd take him back to. Guadalcanal, Roosevelt Prison. And then 0:26:51.350 --> 0:26:53.600 we just, you know, make sure we got all our 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:56.870 kit and get on their rubber. Yeah. Rubber inflatables. Get 0:26:56.869 --> 0:26:57.890 on the boat. Go back. 0:26:58.040 --> 0:27:00.410 Might there be a lot of people listening, myself included, 0:27:00.410 --> 0:27:03.590 who would be almost surprised to hear, you know, the 0:27:03.590 --> 0:27:07.040 federal police actually play? That's like a paramilitary type of 0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:10.070 an operation. And, um, people do have an awareness of 0:27:10.070 --> 0:27:12.200 peacekeeping groups that have dropped into as they have been 0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:14.750 into Vanuatu and, you know, Solomons over the years. But 0:27:14.750 --> 0:27:18.109 that's sort of next level. And that's, as you said before, 0:27:18.109 --> 0:27:21.770 that's one of countless operations that you're involved in of 0:27:21.770 --> 0:27:25.340 a similar nature. Some probably went as well, some went 0:27:25.340 --> 0:27:28.190 a bit pear shaped. And, you know, goodness me, what 0:27:28.190 --> 0:27:29.780 a what a what a period of your life that 0:27:29.780 --> 0:27:30.770 must have been. Yeah. 0:27:30.770 --> 0:27:33.230 It's like I said, it's very unique for law enforcement 0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:35.660 at you know, the AFP does a really good job 0:27:35.660 --> 0:27:40.820 at actually um, I suppose covering off on those requirements. 0:27:40.820 --> 0:27:43.760 But they, they don't chest beat about it. Uh, it's 0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:46.490 very low key and there's good reason for that. You know, 0:27:46.490 --> 0:27:48.740 we can talk about it now. It's it's quite historic. 0:27:48.740 --> 0:27:51.320 They just work in the background and they get the results. 0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:54.950 But like I pinch myself all the time going, you know, 0:27:54.950 --> 0:27:58.879 it's such a steep requirement on on us as police, 0:27:59.150 --> 0:28:01.790 you know, from um, even even the tactical work we're 0:28:01.790 --> 0:28:04.189 doing here in Australia. It's like another level above that. 0:28:04.190 --> 0:28:04.580 Yeah for. 0:28:04.580 --> 0:28:05.090 Sure. 0:28:05.090 --> 0:28:08.780 It's sort of up there almost with sort of SAS 0:28:08.780 --> 0:28:12.020 specialist services type of deployments for the military, isn't it. 0:28:12.020 --> 0:28:14.270 It's not. It's not too far removed from some of 0:28:14.270 --> 0:28:14.870 that gear. 0:28:14.869 --> 0:28:19.399 Definitely the application of methodology and tactics. Um, obviously it 0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:22.910 is different. Of course, no one's no one's ever going 0:28:22.910 --> 0:28:26.419 to say any different, but the level of complexity you're 0:28:26.420 --> 0:28:30.199 using similar tradecraft. But, you know, there's some of the 0:28:30.200 --> 0:28:34.970 expectations on us from a results perspective and strategic and, 0:28:35.090 --> 0:28:37.010 you know, very, very different. 0:28:37.550 --> 0:28:40.850 Mike, I know guys that have done peacekeeping deployments, you know, 0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:43.370 Zealand police like Australian police into Vanuatu and things like that. 0:28:43.370 --> 0:28:46.400 But it's mate, nothing like that. That's next. That's next level. 0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:49.430 And like you say it's it's covert for a reason. 0:28:49.430 --> 0:28:56.300 It's uh yeah. Yeah. So Jason, after close to ten years, 0:28:56.300 --> 0:28:59.840 New South Wales Police and you were deployed in a 0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:04.250 range of different high level units. You had a short 0:29:04.250 --> 0:29:08.690 time away from the job overseas, came back into New 0:29:08.690 --> 0:29:11.660 South Wales policing. As is often the case, the punishment, 0:29:11.660 --> 0:29:13.640 of course, for going away as you come back into 0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:16.940 general duties, they. Yeah, they like to remind you that, well, 0:29:16.940 --> 0:29:18.920 you know, you've had to step away and you've got 0:29:18.920 --> 0:29:20.060 to pay your penance, don't you. 0:29:20.060 --> 0:29:25.370 Yeah, yeah. It's so, um, I resigned for an opportunity 0:29:25.370 --> 0:29:29.420 working in Iraq, and I was comfier. I'd sort of 0:29:29.540 --> 0:29:32.690 ticked all the boxes with that activity. I actually rejoined 0:29:32.690 --> 0:29:36.890 New South Wales. It's like a two week rejoin program 0:29:37.130 --> 0:29:39.500 in New South Wales, as you were saying. And yeah, 0:29:39.500 --> 0:29:43.160 I found myself, um, in a temporary sort of holding 0:29:43.160 --> 0:29:47.180 pattern in general duties, you know, five minutes from home 0:29:47.180 --> 0:29:50.660 on the Central Coast. And, um, to be honest with you, 0:29:50.660 --> 0:29:53.630 as much as I was not a happy camper when 0:29:53.630 --> 0:29:55.190 I found out that was what I was going to 0:29:55.190 --> 0:29:57.920 be doing for six months, maybe it was fantastic because I, 0:29:57.920 --> 0:30:02.750 you know, back in uniform, that's a core policing sort of, 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:04.940 you know, provision. Yeah. You know, so you're back at 0:30:04.940 --> 0:30:08.240 your ground roots. But I'm back now and I've got kids. 0:30:08.420 --> 0:30:11.270 So my whole perspective on everything has changed. And obviously 0:30:11.270 --> 0:30:14.240 I've got a lot more experience because I've done my 0:30:14.690 --> 0:30:17.030 tactical work and I'd been just come back from a 0:30:17.030 --> 0:30:19.760 war zone. So, um, yeah, it was a it was 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:22.670 a really good, um, I really enjoyed it. 0:30:22.910 --> 0:30:25.940 That's interesting, isn't it? Because like you say initially when 0:30:25.940 --> 0:30:27.890 you're told, oh, yeah, welcome back and welcome again, but 0:30:27.890 --> 0:30:30.110 you're going to be on general duties and it's a 0:30:30.110 --> 0:30:32.180 bit of a comedown from where you've been. It's almost 0:30:32.180 --> 0:30:35.990 a circling back to sort of 1997, 98. But but 0:30:35.990 --> 0:30:38.330 the actual once you got in amongst that, you're going, 0:30:38.330 --> 0:30:40.610 actually this is, this is why I joined in the 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:42.980 this is sort of what it's all about. 0:30:42.980 --> 0:30:45.680 And also coming back from a war zone, there was 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:49.610 a level of, um, like peace, you know, being, you know, 0:30:49.610 --> 0:30:52.730 even in the frenetic world of general duties, which it 0:30:52.730 --> 0:30:57.080 is out of control. This is nice and calm. So yeah, 0:30:57.080 --> 0:30:59.360 I really enjoyed it and I enjoyed coming in with 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:03.170 a renewed passion for it. Yes, and perspective. And I 0:31:03.170 --> 0:31:04.520 was very grateful for being there. 0:31:04.820 --> 0:31:08.180 Now, interestingly, just on that, as you've said, you've come 0:31:08.180 --> 0:31:11.270 back from, you know, one of the highest profile war 0:31:11.270 --> 0:31:13.700 zones in the world, absolute carnage. You've come back into 0:31:13.700 --> 0:31:19.720 general duties and there's a sort of a calming feeling there. Then, tragically, 0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:22.480 you're sent to a job. You know, general duties, we know. 0:31:22.510 --> 0:31:25.120 You just never know what's going to come through the radio, 0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:27.460 you know? And things can be going along. You're there, 0:31:27.460 --> 0:31:30.160 you're working, and then suddenly you attend a job. And 0:31:30.160 --> 0:31:32.740 it's a job that that can stay with you for 0:31:32.740 --> 0:31:34.870 all the wrong reasons for the rest of your life. 0:31:34.870 --> 0:31:37.210 And I think you might have attended one of those. 0:31:38.050 --> 0:31:41.560 I was working on a Saturday with one of my partners, 0:31:41.560 --> 0:31:46.600 female partner, and, um, there was a job came on, uh, 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:53.110 F3 freeway down near Hawkesbury of a motor vehicle accident. So, yeah, 0:31:53.110 --> 0:31:55.150 we copied that and made our way there. 0:31:55.150 --> 0:31:56.530 From pretty rough weather. 0:31:56.830 --> 0:32:01.060 A really localized storm cell went through really quickly, so 0:32:01.060 --> 0:32:03.580 by the time we got there, it was sun's out. Everything's, 0:32:03.580 --> 0:32:06.340 you know, quite wet. And there was a lot of 0:32:06.340 --> 0:32:08.860 water on the side of the freeway. And what had 0:32:08.860 --> 0:32:12.880 happened is a female driver, 29 years of age, coming 0:32:12.880 --> 0:32:16.480 down the freeway and just hit, aquaplaning her vehicle, and 0:32:16.480 --> 0:32:20.140 it shot through the guardrail, which is unusual. And it's 0:32:20.140 --> 0:32:23.890 quite a steep, heavily pretty dense, decent sized trees. So 0:32:23.890 --> 0:32:26.440 the car's bounced its way down. So it's going to 0:32:26.440 --> 0:32:31.390 be quite a serious accident. Um, I parked up near 0:32:31.390 --> 0:32:35.470 where the, um, where obviously her vehicles pushed through the 0:32:35.470 --> 0:32:38.800 barrier and left my partner up there with the radio 0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:41.980 and everything and just said, listen, when everyone starts turning up, 0:32:42.250 --> 0:32:44.860 you know, you're up here. So I climbed down because 0:32:44.860 --> 0:32:48.280 it was really arduous getting through all the the bush. And, um, 0:32:48.490 --> 0:32:51.220 I get to the car and the paramedics are sort 0:32:51.220 --> 0:32:53.410 of trying to work. There's one paramedic there, and he's 0:32:53.410 --> 0:32:56.200 trying to work out how to get her out of 0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:59.050 the car. And so he goes, just come here, hold 0:32:59.050 --> 0:33:01.720 her hand. And he went around the other side. And 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:05.260 he was, you know, just working on and ensuring that 0:33:05.260 --> 0:33:07.600 the vehicle because it was jammed between two trees, that 0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:10.600 it wasn't just going to actually let go. And then 0:33:10.600 --> 0:33:13.780 him and I would get injured as well anyway. So 0:33:13.780 --> 0:33:16.300 I'm holding her hand and she's sort of just like, um, 0:33:16.300 --> 0:33:21.340 you know, taking really shallow, fast breathing, you know, obviously 0:33:21.340 --> 0:33:26.740 very seriously injured internally, really pretty, you know, just like 0:33:26.740 --> 0:33:29.770 everything about her looked untouched, you know, um, so I'm 0:33:29.770 --> 0:33:32.620 holding her hand and just trying to comfort her. And 0:33:32.620 --> 0:33:35.080 it's like, um, it's a that's a lot. There's a 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:37.570 gravity in that, you know, and there's a lot of 0:33:37.570 --> 0:33:42.550 responsibility in that where you're holding someone's hand. And basically 0:33:42.550 --> 0:33:46.810 she took a last breath and I. So as soon 0:33:46.810 --> 0:33:50.620 as soon as she passed away, um, I've sort of 0:33:50.620 --> 0:33:54.130 deferred to the paramedic. Hey, do we need to be doing, 0:33:54.250 --> 0:33:57.280 you know, compressions? And you know what? What did he 0:33:57.280 --> 0:34:00.370 want me to do? And he goes, no, no, like, mate, 0:34:00.700 --> 0:34:05.710 she's gone. And because he'd already made some assessments and obviously, um, 0:34:05.710 --> 0:34:10.270 you know, he was. He was quite, um, sure of 0:34:10.270 --> 0:34:13.390 how bad you know, she was. And, you know, I 0:34:13.390 --> 0:34:16.180 don't go into their world. So he came over and 0:34:16.180 --> 0:34:20.170 we you did another assessment, and he goes, no matches. 0:34:20.170 --> 0:34:22.600 Like there's absolutely nothing we can do. Plus she like 0:34:22.870 --> 0:34:25.720 she was sort of jammed in. So it's not as 0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:28.210 if we could pull her out and do CPR easily. Um. 0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:32.540 The anyway. So yeah, she passed away and you know, 0:34:32.540 --> 0:34:35.630 so yesterday morning where I was like half an hour earlier, 0:34:35.630 --> 0:34:37.610 I was just looking forward to going down and around 0:34:37.610 --> 0:34:40.430 local cafe to get a coffee and fly the, the 0:34:40.850 --> 0:34:43.969 New South Wales Police flag around and um, then you 0:34:43.969 --> 0:34:46.460 hear and he and then he was like, wow. And 0:34:46.580 --> 0:34:48.589 anyway I said to him, I'm going to get back 0:34:48.590 --> 0:34:51.080 up to the freeway. And we're just, you know, I'd 0:34:51.080 --> 0:34:54.290 have to make a few calls, crash investigation. And, um, 0:34:54.290 --> 0:34:57.290 and then we've got to obviously be able to recover 0:34:57.290 --> 0:35:00.480 everything as well. And her. And I started walking up. 0:35:00.540 --> 0:35:02.940 I got about halfway up between where this car was 0:35:02.940 --> 0:35:05.549 and the road, and you can imagine I literally grab 0:35:05.550 --> 0:35:08.040 and hold of things to climb, and I hear a 0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:11.370 phone ring in the middle of the bush. And I 0:35:11.370 --> 0:35:14.490 knew straight away. It's obviously a phone. You know, it's 0:35:14.670 --> 0:35:18.390 popped out of her car when it's been banging. Anyway, um, 0:35:18.390 --> 0:35:20.910 it rang long enough for me to actually find it, 0:35:20.910 --> 0:35:23.100 and I picked it up, and then obviously, I'm not 0:35:23.100 --> 0:35:25.290 going to answer it, because then I've got to, you know, 0:35:25.290 --> 0:35:27.509 someone's going to say, well, why is this dude, you know, 0:35:27.510 --> 0:35:31.800 answering her phone? So I let it ring out. But 0:35:31.800 --> 0:35:34.380 then and then the message bank pops up on it 0:35:34.380 --> 0:35:37.140 straight away and it wasn't locked. You know, I just 0:35:37.140 --> 0:35:41.040 pressed play and then made the final error of putting 0:35:41.040 --> 0:35:44.219 it up and listening to it. And then I hear 0:35:44.219 --> 0:35:47.640 this message come into the phone from her eight year 0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:52.290 old son, who's. She'd been away for a weekend with 0:35:52.290 --> 0:35:55.410 some girlfriends, and obviously she was on her way home, 0:35:55.650 --> 0:35:59.820 so he rang her and basically the message was, hey mummy, 0:36:00.180 --> 0:36:03.210 I cannot wait to see you. I've missed you so much. 0:36:03.210 --> 0:36:06.029 And then we're going to the movies tonight. And then 0:36:06.510 --> 0:36:12.120 basically every little trigger you could imagine like that would 0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:14.850 really cut you to the bone. This eight year old 0:36:14.850 --> 0:36:17.310 kid said it in this message, and I'm standing there 0:36:17.310 --> 0:36:20.459 in the middle of the bush, and then the message ends, 0:36:20.460 --> 0:36:22.979 and I'm just standing there going, and it literally just 0:36:22.980 --> 0:36:27.270 floored me. Like it literally just sucked every bit of. 0:36:27.930 --> 0:36:30.780 Like air out of my lungs. And even now, like, 0:36:30.780 --> 0:36:35.370 I can still, um. Actually. Take myself back to that emotion. 0:36:35.850 --> 0:36:39.660 So I'm standing there just going. What? And I'll listen 0:36:39.660 --> 0:36:42.210 to that message. And then, um, I walk up to 0:36:42.210 --> 0:36:46.080 the roadway and, and my partner comes over and she goes, 0:36:46.080 --> 0:36:47.880 are you okay? Because I was just like, you know, 0:36:47.880 --> 0:36:49.770 just in my own little world for a second. And 0:36:49.770 --> 0:36:52.469 then I just handed her the phone and pressed the 0:36:52.890 --> 0:36:56.520 press the message. Unfortunately, I had to share the pie. 0:36:56.520 --> 0:36:59.190 And I suppose, anyway, next thing I know, she's in tears. 0:36:59.190 --> 0:37:02.190 She's in the car. And, um, because, you know, I'd explained, 0:37:02.190 --> 0:37:04.890 you know, that, um, his mum has just passed away. 0:37:04.890 --> 0:37:09.940 I was holding her hand. Um, so. Yeah. Um. You know, 0:37:09.940 --> 0:37:13.810 I've been involved and seen so many things over the 0:37:13.810 --> 0:37:16.810 years and so much tragedy and just like shocking stuff. 0:37:16.810 --> 0:37:19.270 But it's funny, the ones that really get under your skin, 0:37:19.270 --> 0:37:23.460 that one got under my skin because it was like, um. Just, 0:37:23.610 --> 0:37:25.650 you know, I was walking up and I was processing 0:37:25.650 --> 0:37:28.350 the fact and the gravity of just holding someone's hand 0:37:28.350 --> 0:37:31.200 with their last breaths. And, you know, it's just been, 0:37:31.590 --> 0:37:33.810 you know, talking to us softly and saying, you're going 0:37:33.810 --> 0:37:36.569 to be okay. The same things that people had said 0:37:36.570 --> 0:37:39.480 to me, you know, ten years earlier or 11 years earlier, 0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:42.180 you know, where I'm laying on the street just to 0:37:42.180 --> 0:37:47.850 have the. The gravity of it, reinforced by that that 0:37:47.850 --> 0:37:52.350 woman's child. Um, and because of now I've got I'm 0:37:52.350 --> 0:37:55.710 placing I'm doing, um, uniform policing and I've got kids 0:37:55.710 --> 0:38:00.000 of my own. The reality of the of that area 0:38:00.000 --> 0:38:03.600 in police work just like, hit me like a, like 0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:05.580 a brick to the side of the head. So, um, 0:38:05.580 --> 0:38:09.540 you know, just really, um, just come from left field 0:38:09.540 --> 0:38:12.930 and it doesn't allow you to set up some of 0:38:12.930 --> 0:38:16.439 those bits of armor that you normally get to start 0:38:16.440 --> 0:38:19.620 placing in front of you mentally, just like straight through 0:38:19.620 --> 0:38:21.930 to the keeper and, you know, touches you. 0:38:22.170 --> 0:38:25.950 There's a real rawness about it, isn't there? And it's Jason. 0:38:25.950 --> 0:38:28.379 It's I just, you know, the honesty in which you're 0:38:28.380 --> 0:38:32.820 speaking about this because like you said, you know, coppers 0:38:32.820 --> 0:38:34.680 can sit around and you can tell all these war 0:38:34.680 --> 0:38:37.410 stories and all these things that that people who haven't 0:38:37.410 --> 0:38:40.410 been the job, people haven't experienced it, that almost disbelieving. 0:38:40.410 --> 0:38:43.800 And then it's something like that and then it's tragedy. 0:38:43.830 --> 0:38:46.860 It's just such a simple thing. It's it's, um, you know, 0:38:46.860 --> 0:38:49.080 you're holding a woman's hand at the time of her death, 0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:52.050 but then the tipping point when the little bloke leaves 0:38:52.050 --> 0:38:54.719 the message on mum's phone and it's like you say, 0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:58.560 it's all that stuff, and maybe, maybe for you to Jason, 0:38:58.560 --> 0:39:02.790 there's that, uh, there's an unmistakable connection back to when 0:39:02.790 --> 0:39:05.880 you yourself were on the other side, almost, of that situation. 0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:08.220 You know, it's it's it's all comes in together, doesn't it. 0:39:08.219 --> 0:39:08.969 Yeah, yeah. 0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:11.850 And if you, if there's any silver lining to it, 0:39:11.850 --> 0:39:16.960 it's just the, um. Exposure to that level of tragedy 0:39:16.960 --> 0:39:19.840 and grief. The, um, you know, you wouldn't wish it 0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:22.900 upon anyone, but the one thing that I do draw 0:39:22.900 --> 0:39:26.500 from it, it's just the how, you know, precious and 0:39:26.500 --> 0:39:30.700 fleeting life can be. Like I said it, you. There's 0:39:30.700 --> 0:39:33.730 a couple of pathways you can go after. You know, 0:39:33.730 --> 0:39:35.980 you can sort of suck on your thumb and sit 0:39:35.980 --> 0:39:38.920 in the corner. Not that not the best analogy, but 0:39:38.920 --> 0:39:42.160 I know what you mean. You know, or you can, um, 0:39:42.610 --> 0:39:44.740 you know, learn from it as much as best you 0:39:44.739 --> 0:39:49.420 can and, you know, try to pull some positive from it. 0:39:49.420 --> 0:39:52.480 And I suppose for me it's just like, you know, 0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:59.739 maintaining my empathy. Whilst wearing a uniform. Being grateful all 0:39:59.739 --> 0:40:04.700 the time because you're breathing. And, um, you know, just 0:40:04.700 --> 0:40:08.390 having a positive pathways to how you try to process it. Yeah. 0:40:09.870 --> 0:40:12.420 I just want to thank you so much. This has been, um. 0:40:12.420 --> 0:40:16.950 Goodness me. I've just such enjoyed both meeting you and 0:40:16.950 --> 0:40:19.530 hearing some of your experiences, and and I just know 0:40:19.530 --> 0:40:21.930 that so many that will listen to this will take 0:40:21.930 --> 0:40:25.380 so much from it. It's such a storied career, but 0:40:25.380 --> 0:40:27.990 such a tragic start to it and all of that. 0:40:27.989 --> 0:40:30.540 But you know, for your honesty and opening up about that, Jason, 0:40:30.540 --> 0:40:33.569 I really thank you for that. Um, I've read through 0:40:33.570 --> 0:40:35.280 so much of the stuff that you've done and the 0:40:35.280 --> 0:40:37.799 different environments that you've worked in, and we could do 0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:40.080 half a dozen of these and still only touch on 0:40:40.080 --> 0:40:44.190 the surface. And I say that because for you to 0:40:44.190 --> 0:40:47.370 have included that story about that tragic event with that 0:40:47.370 --> 0:40:49.560 woman passing in the driving, it just it just sort 0:40:49.560 --> 0:40:53.040 of shows to me the person that you are because 0:40:53.040 --> 0:40:56.310 you've come back to the humanity of what it is that, um, 0:40:56.850 --> 0:41:00.060 police officers do. And it's not it's not chest beating. It's, it's, it's. 0:41:00.060 --> 0:41:02.670 And you said that yourself, you know, this was just 0:41:02.670 --> 0:41:05.070 a job that you attended on a Saturday afternoon, a 0:41:05.070 --> 0:41:07.830 Saturday morning. And yet it's one of those ones for 0:41:07.830 --> 0:41:10.169 all these different reasons that will stay with you for 0:41:10.170 --> 0:41:13.110 the rest of your life. And, uh, Jason, just thank 0:41:13.110 --> 0:41:15.480 you so much for coming and thanks for your honesty 0:41:15.480 --> 0:41:17.160 and thanks for sharing this with us. 0:41:17.190 --> 0:41:19.950 Thank you very much for having me. And, um, there's 0:41:19.950 --> 0:41:22.590 a little bit of trauma in there, of course, but, um, 0:41:23.550 --> 0:41:25.710 you know, for any of the listeners, especially if there's 0:41:25.710 --> 0:41:29.549 anyone still within law enforcement, it's like, um, you know, 0:41:29.550 --> 0:41:32.279 if the only advice I would give is remember why 0:41:32.280 --> 0:41:35.490 you joined the police, you just be grateful all the 0:41:35.489 --> 0:41:39.900 time of, I suppose, the opportunity you have to help 0:41:39.900 --> 0:41:42.570 other people and never lose sight of that because it's 0:41:42.570 --> 0:41:47.700 easy to maintain empathy, but maintain that empathy for yourself 0:41:47.700 --> 0:41:50.130 as well. If you don't have empathy for yourself, yeah, 0:41:50.130 --> 0:41:52.200 it's going to be very hard to do so for others. 0:41:52.350 --> 0:41:54.180 So yeah, thank you so much for having me and 0:41:54.480 --> 0:41:55.469 I appreciate your time. 0:41:59.800 --> 0:42:04.770 Crime insiders. Detectives is a listener. Original production. It's hosted 0:42:04.770 --> 0:42:09.299 by me, Brent Sanders, produced by Ed Gordon and sound 0:42:09.300 --> 0:42:11.879 designed and imaged by Link Kelly.