S1: A listener production.
S2: G'day. I'm former police officer Brent Sanders, and for the
S2: past 25 years, I've dedicated myself to sharing what I've
S2: learned on the force to the Australian public so they
S2: can better protect themselves from falling victim to crime. In
S2: this episode, I'm going to take a slightly different approach
S2: with my guest. I'm going to probe into the personal
S2: and emotional experience of policing and what it feels like
S2: to be with people, be it victims or perpetrators, on
S2: the worst day of their lives.
S3: I was walking up and I was processing the fact
S3: and the gravity of just holding someone's hand with their
S3: last breaths.
S2: Jason Semple started in general duties with the New South
S2: Wales Police, before eventually joining the Australian Federal Police Specialist
S2: Response Group, where he was deployed on peacekeeping missions in
S2: places like Afghanistan and the Solomon Islands. After nine years overseas,
S2: Jason returned home and step back into his New South
S2: Wales Police uniform. To begin this chat, we're going back
S2: to 1998. It's Jason's second week on the job as
S2: a probationary constable with the New South Wales Police in Sydney.
S2: He's off duty and walking home with a mate after
S2: a few quiet drinks.
S4: Um.
S3: It's something it did turn horribly wrong, and it, um.
S3: I suppose no one's ever prepared for it, especially in
S3: law enforcement. You know, the risk is there. But, um,
S3: it's always that old story. Won't happen to me. And
S3: two weeks after coming out of the academy, I'm lying
S3: in the gutter, you know, thinking I'm 100% convinced that
S3: I'm going to die right there. Right then on a
S3: Friday night and a wet, cold street in Sydney. So
S3: it was, uh, not the, uh, start to law enforcement
S3: that you're looking for, but we don't get to choose,
S3: you know, when these events occur. So two weeks earlier
S3: at the police academy, it was Friday the 13th, and
S3: I actually made a joke. Is anyone else not thinking
S3: this is a really bad day to walk out on
S3: our passing out parade? Been Friday the 13th. And so
S3: I suppose my joke on that occasion sort of came back.
S2: Came back to bite me mate. I went into the
S2: police academy on April Fool's Day, so maybe there's a
S2: connection there now on this, on this night, 28th of February,
S2: you're with Peter Forsyth. Uh, Brian Neville. You'd been just
S2: out having a couple of social beers, and my understanding
S2: is you're walking back through Ultimo, and this is pretty
S2: close to to Brian Forsyth's house. You're within 100m or so.
S2: His wife, couple of kids.
S3: Yeah. So, you know, we dropped Peter off earlier in
S3: his shift. In our shift, he had to do a
S3: prisoner escort flying a young offender interstate. And, um, I
S3: was actually really well behaved. I was drinking mid strength,
S3: you know, so no one was intoxicated. And, you know,
S3: walking back down the street, you'd need to take into
S3: account two that I was wearing my police uniform, but
S3: I had a t shirt on over the top, you
S3: know quite clear to anyone in our business. You know,
S3: the criminals obviously have just as good at recognizing us
S3: as we are them. And a young bloke incredibly approached
S3: and tried to sell us an ecstasy tablet. Um, and
S3: I was actually just gobsmacked. The, I suppose, the forwardness
S3: of it. I think he was only about 15 or 16,
S3: and obviously because it was so close to Pete's house
S3: and some sort of activity like that's occurring near where
S3: you're where you live and where you've got young kids
S3: and you're in the police. You don't turn a blind
S3: eye to it. So, you know, Pete, you may have
S3: been a probationary constable at the time. I just basically
S3: kind of watch and listen. And, you know, he had
S3: a conversation with this young bloke and then who indicated
S3: that the actual drugs were, um, with his brother across
S3: the road, you know, so a quick conversation, he's gone
S3: over and the offender has come over, obviously, to sell
S3: us the tablet in his mind at that point, you know,
S3: Pete and Brian really took charge. Um, he was under
S3: no illusion that we were police and that he was
S3: being detained. And Pete and Brian were directing him to
S3: get some identification out. He had a bum bag, you know,
S3: zipper front bum bag on at the time, it sort
S3: of sitting on his haunches and he was just taking
S3: a little bit too much time, you know, rifling through
S3: the bum bag at that point. Pete. So I get up,
S3: you know, it's just taken too long. So if you're
S3: not going to do it properly, we will at a
S3: certain point. Then he's basically said to the words, the
S3: fact I'm out of here, you know, and pushed off.
S3: And at that point I was on the far left
S3: and he pushed off. I pushed him back into against
S3: the doors because obviously he's not going anywhere. And, um,
S3: I felt a couple of like, punches, which I thought
S3: they were punches. So one to my chest and then
S3: one of my abdominal area and um, thinking, is that
S3: the best you got? But, um. From a psychology point
S3: of view, my brain had not detected what was actually
S3: occurring and. Then I hear Bryan yell out, knife, knife, knife,
S3: you know? And he has actually pushed myself and Peter
S3: out of the way because he could see what we
S3: obviously we we didn't see. And as soon as Brian
S3: said that this is all happening in microseconds, right. You
S3: wouldn't think it would occur. But I've actually even still
S3: at that point in time, I actually my brain starts
S3: putting two and two together and go, hang on is
S3: a knife. I've definitely felt some impacts and looked down.
S3: I pulled my shirt up and then, you know, literally
S3: blood was spraying out of my abdominal wound. At that point,
S3: the offender has run off with Brian in pursuit. Pete's
S3: turned to me spawn a few times and basically laid
S3: me down into the gutter, and he's yelling at the
S3: top of his voice, you know, trying to alert any
S3: of the locals that are because there's people living straight
S3: across the road in those dwellings. Um, so he's yelling
S3: at the top of his voice to get help, and
S3: lights are turning on. So, you know, obviously there's a
S3: bit of activity. Then he's he's turned me sort of
S3: leaning over me. I'm sort of half in the gutter,
S3: half on the pathway. And he goes, show me, because
S3: I've got my hand over my, my abdominal wound. So
S3: just give me a look. And I took my hand
S3: off and it's like obviously bleeding profusely. And he's, you know,
S3: put my hand back on and he goes off, you know,
S3: whatever you do like I'll say it how he said it.
S3: He said, keep your hand on that. And I was like, no,
S3: no problem. And um. It's the most surreal, life altering.
S3: It's even to this day. The fear is tangible. You
S3: could pick it up with a forklift and move it around.
S3: It's a real entity anyway. A very short period of
S3: time elapsed. And Pete collapsed on top of me. And
S3: at that time I actually just thought, it's funny, you know,
S3: you're in shock and there's a lot of there's a
S3: lot going on. And I thought Pete had fainted because
S3: he'd been talking to me. There is no external indication
S3: that he'd been injured. There's no blood on him. Except
S3: for most likely mine. It was one of those moments
S3: where it's a little bit confusing, but you become self-absorbed.
S3: I think it's the one time you can be narcissistic
S3: and think about yourself because you're in this position and.
S3: And it's quite dire. Um, I actually struggled with this
S3: for a long time afterwards, not thinking towards him, maybe
S3: like I should have. Right. But at the end of
S3: the day, you react in the way. You're only a
S3: young fella.
S2: How old were you? Just out of.
S3: Interest. 25.
S2: And you had a second knife wound as well. Were
S2: you aware of that at the time.
S3: Or at the time?
S2: Not at the time.
S3: So that one was directly over my heart, but the
S3: rib caught it, so it split the rib. So it
S3: did a bit of damage, but it never went through
S3: the rib. So the rib did its job as a
S3: part of your anatomy. Even if five millimetres either side
S3: of where that knife struck, it would have slid off
S3: your rib and going straight in and wouldn't be talking
S3: to you. So it's like, yeah, that's uh, that's quite horrific.
S2: So Pete is lying on top of you. You're thinking yourself,
S2: I'm done here. I'm gone. Yeah. And you're thinking, I
S2: don't know, but you're thinking, I don't know what's happened
S2: to Pete. But he. Maybe he's fainted because of all
S2: the blood. Maybe something's happened. But you're not thinking. No,
S2: I'm not thinking. He's been in any way injured. Stabbed
S2: or anything. And then does Brian come back?
S3: Yes. So during that period where Pete is, like, screaming
S3: to get people's attention. Yeah. That also triggered Brian as
S3: he was in pursuit to sort of look back. You know,
S3: Brian got down to there's a major intersection and the
S3: offenders turned right to go into a very busy part
S3: of Sydney and saw at that point saw that both
S3: of us were on the ground and then realized that
S3: getting the offender isn't as important as potentially coming back
S3: and looking after us.
S2: When he took off after the offender, which is that
S2: natural instinct to do that. He's seen the knife, but
S2: he didn't see you or Peter gets up, so he
S2: probably had no idea taking off that you'd been expecting.
S3: Us to be right.
S2: Right behind him.
S3: Yeah. And then when he's turned around and we're both
S3: lying on the ground. Yeah, he's obviously the enormity of
S3: of that has hit him. And he's always come, come
S3: back to us. Um, when he got up to me, um,
S3: I was still cognizant of everything around me to a
S3: hyper level, actually, I remember I was focusing on, like,
S3: there was a river of my blood going down the pathway, and,
S3: and I was watching it go over the, um, the
S3: lip of the gutter. And that was, you know, one
S3: of those visuals where you go, well, there's no way
S3: in the world that I'm surviving this, you know? And
S3: it was just sheer like I said, it's a tangible
S3: entity of fear. It's a very overwhelming self-preservation. Um, period. Um,
S3: when Brian came up, he's pulled, paid off. Our legs
S3: are sort of tangled. And the next thing you know,
S3: Brian's doing CPR and I'm, like, going, what is. He
S3: had a heart attack because there's no wound. There's no
S3: visible injury whatsoever. Of course, you can look at it
S3: now and go, you just got stabbed. Well, but it
S3: was just a sheer lack of, um, any external visible indicator.
S3: That was, I suppose, through the confusion for me. And
S3: you're not thinking it your best.
S2: So Brian's obviously aware because he's doing CPR that, uh,
S2: Pete's in a bad way. And ambulances, the paramedics arrive.
S2: Ambulance is called. Who's first on scene at that point? Ah.
S3: You know, there's a lot of things that came together,
S3: you know, as with a lot of tragedy, there's all
S3: these little intricate nuances that sometimes come together that put
S3: someone somewhere that x, Y, and Z happens, you know,
S3: and you think it's incredibly unlucky that x, Y, and
S3: Z came together in that person. This has happened to them.
S3: That can work for you as well. Yes. So by
S3: Meg Gilchrist, God bless her. There was two ambulance buses
S3: if you want to call them, their crews from different
S3: areas catching up for a coffee, you know, Friday night,
S3: busy shift. You know, the type of work they do.
S3: It's incredible. So lucky for me, they were literally 60s away. So, yeah,
S3: I was really lucky. But you know, once again, the guilt,
S3: the guilt that I had to deal with later because
S3: when they arrived, they go straight to Pete and start
S3: trying to give lifesaving first aid. And I'm like going,
S3: what is going on with Pete? You know, like, is
S3: it very confused? And then I'm here by myself bleeding
S3: profusely and no one's with me, you know, I mean,
S3: like it was like it's almost a selfish self-preservation, um,
S3: you know, mentality gets in, but.
S2: You're also just dealing with the information that you're processing, and,
S2: and there's a lot of confusion there, and you're in
S2: shock and. Hold on. Yeah. It's it's not something you
S2: can prepare for.
S3: That period of time feels like I could talk about
S3: it in a detail that you would swear it went
S3: for 30 minutes, but it's only two minutes. Yes. You know. Yes.
S3: So obviously the second crew come over and start, you know,
S3: working on me. Um. Well, I don't think I was
S3: really one of their best patients. If you. You know,
S3: if you talk to VI. Mainly because I was just
S3: so hyper alert to the position I was in.
S2: So both you and Peter taken to local hospital, it
S2: would have been what, RPA close to there, I suppose. Yeah.
S3: So we're not far away, which is in my favor
S3: as well. Um. What I didn't realize is, you know,
S3: before I was getting transported, um, the commander who was
S3: from City Central when he arrived, he looked over at
S3: the two of us and go, someone go get a
S3: dying declaration of me. He was like, there is no
S3: way his surviving those injuries, and not with the amount
S3: of blood that was around. Um, you know, when I
S3: talked to him later, he was convinced in his mind,
S3: I was most at risk. But, you know, which is weird,
S3: because Pete had already passed realistically.
S2: So he. Peter passed at the scene.
S3: Yeah, he'd already at that point, um, that was still
S3: trying to stabilize me. And they and Pete had left
S3: in an ambulance. So that boss, obviously, if Pete had
S3: still been there, they were taking the hospital and still
S3: obviously performing CPR all the way there. When he saw
S3: me and the injuries and but, you know, he was
S3: obviously of that opinion that wasn't going to make it.
S2: You lost, like, five liters of blood or something? Yeah,
S2: just on five. How many do we have?
S3: I don't know, five liters. And you know the the
S3: circumstantial aspects again, you know. There was like a chief
S3: surgeon been doing some training at RPA that week. So
S3: in terms of the injury I had, he's delivering training
S3: to other surgeons on procedural, you know, improvements or whatever
S3: in that space. He's he was at RPA. So you know.
S3: You know, I roll up there and I've got this,
S3: this incredible, you know, surge in there.
S2: Any pain at that point because you've not mentioned it? No.
S2: And that's that's a bizarre thing too, isn't it? That's
S2: sort of a scene. That sort of incident should be
S2: connected to being an almost excruciating pain as you're clinging
S2: on literally for life on the footpath. But you've not
S2: mentioned it once. There was no no memory of any pain.
S3: No pain. No. Your body just diverts energy and attention elsewhere.
S3: There was a few times I felt things about it.
S3: I think it was just so there was the gravity
S3: of it was so immense that it overrode, you know,
S3: because at the end of the day, it's, you know,
S3: it's a cut through your skin. So it's not like
S3: I was broken leg or hanging off.
S2: So at what point did you become aware that Peter
S2: had gone?
S3: I asked quite a few times prior to going into surgery.
S3: It was like, oh, he's fine, um, he's fine. He's
S3: in the next room, you know, so there's a few
S3: little white lies, you know, said to me, probably hopefully
S3: calm me down. I was happy to know that. So
S3: I just basically stared at a, uh, one of the
S3: diagnostic machines and tried to control my blood pressure and
S3: my pulse, you know, trying to calm myself. And I
S3: can thank Mick Drury. Um, I don't know if you
S3: know who my crew is from the old Blue murder.
S3: He's an.
S2: Author now. Yeah.
S3: Yeah, yeah. And he's a is a Neddy Smith.
S2: Sort of.
S3: Yeah, yeah. Out of that era. Like one of the
S3: most talented undercover operatives that probably New South Wales had.
S3: But I'd been reading his book the night before, and
S3: I got to a point where there was assassination attempt
S3: on him at his home in North Sydney. So I
S3: got to that chapter where I knew this is a
S3: chapter who gets shot in. And I nearly didn't read it.
S3: And then I'll go, no, I have to read that
S3: before I go to sleep. So I read that chapter,
S3: and in that bit, Mick refers to the fact he's
S3: lying on his floor in his kitchen, bleeding profusely, even
S3: less understanding of first aid training back in those days.
S3: And he goes, he knew the only thing you could
S3: really do to give himself some level of hope was calm.
S3: If I stay calm, I don't go into shock and
S3: I don't bleed as much. You know, so I'm reading
S3: that night before, you know, a lot of people say
S3: when a certain incidents occur, you know, their life flashes
S3: before their eyes. Obviously, some degree people have different experiences,
S3: but I'd rather use the analogy. It's like your brain,
S3: you've now got an issue that you really don't have
S3: any expertise to fix, and your brain's just searching for
S3: a way like a like you've done a Google search.
S3: What do I do here? And so it's going to everything,
S3: every exposure you've ever had to trying to lock onto something.
S3: My brain locked onto what Mick had said in his book.
S3: And so that was I was like, um. Pathologically trying
S3: to remain calm. You know, even when people come up
S3: and ask me a question, I'd literally, probably rudely, a
S3: few times tell people to where to go because you're
S3: interrupting my my concentration on being calm, if that makes sense. Yeah.
S3: And you go back to your to answer your question,
S3: I woke up the next day. So Saturday morning and
S3: you know, it's like when you come out of anesthesia,
S3: I've got the police commissioner at the end of my
S3: bed and, you know, all these people and, um, I mean,
S3: I had this level of elation that you couldn't, you know,
S3: this almost the same gravity as what? The fear I'd
S3: had the night before. It's like, oh, I cannot believe it.
S3: I'm here. And then the the follow on questions on Pete,
S3: and you get told that he's actually passed away. So,
S3: you know, derails that, um, elation pretty quick.
S2: And that's there's another emotion that experience called what you
S2: will that you just can't prepare for. So there's, there's
S2: the elation of I've survived matched against the fact that
S2: you might your colleague who was trying to save you
S2: has passed away. Would it be fair to say, Jason,
S2: at that time you experienced almost a bit of guilt?
S2: Is that one of the emotions.
S3: Amount of guilt?
S2: Yeah. Yeah. Is that still with you today?
S3: Uh, no, because I've been able to process it, um,
S3: and put it in its true in its proper context. Yeah.
S3: Especially sort of really think about the true timelines of
S3: what was occurring at the time. Yes. Um, and there's
S3: no way to go back and change it.
S2: But it's something that you carry for, for a period
S2: of time as you're trying to, as you're trying to
S2: process it all.
S3: Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a tough one, but it's
S3: just one. You just got to process it. And um,
S3: I suppose learn to get to some point where you're
S3: at peace with any decisions you did or didn't make.
S2: So you eventually, of course, you know, there would have
S2: been quite a substantial period of hospitalization, rehabilitation, the whole
S2: nine yards. At some point you're back in that uniform.
S2: You're back out on the street. How does that look?
S2: How does that feel? 25 years of age, you've lost
S2: a colleague. You've come as close as anyone can ever
S2: come to losing their life. That's got to give you
S2: a different perspective. Things must change in your outlook. How
S2: does how does that work?
S3: It definitely matured me overnight. Yeah. And I suppose just
S3: my awareness of everything around me supercharged, you know, because
S3: you do get complacent. You do get comfortable in environments,
S3: and you're probably not overlaying the amount of, um, potential
S3: threat that you're going to every single time you go
S3: to a job. Yeah. It's just like, um, now I'm
S3: in uniform, and I know that the most innocuous job
S3: can go so badly.
S2: Ten years down the track, you take your career in
S2: a in a slightly different direction. You step across and
S2: join the Australian Federal Police in a very high level,
S2: highly trained environment. And that led to deployment in, amongst
S2: other places, the Solomon Islands. Can you just give us
S2: some background to that transition to the AFP and the
S2: path that that took you on?
S3: Yeah, that's a job on the brush over quickly. But
S3: the you know, so after the, you know, the stabbing,
S3: you know, if you fast forwarding I'd been selected, you know,
S3: done the selection program and trained up and operational uh
S3: member of the New South Wales Police tactical operations unit
S3: and I was one of their branches, explosive, very trained
S3: and a sniper in there. And, um, there was an
S3: opportunity to apply the same type of, um, tactical policing
S3: in a federal context with the federal police, with some
S3: deploy ability involved. So, you know, they wanted a TAC team,
S3: they could do domestic, um, whether it was counter-terrorism or
S3: serious crime, you know, serious organised crime and then also
S3: used as an asset for Australian government for overseas, whether it's, um,
S3: you know, a stabilisation in Timor or, um, Solomon Islands
S3: or whatever the role was. So referencing Solomon's, um, my
S3: role in that operational response group, it was called at
S3: the time, it's now the Sri. So basically the federal
S3: TAC teams, myself and other guy ran their sniper capability.
S3: Solomon Islands was um, part of the the Ramsi mission
S3: over there. So it was a stabilisation mission after the
S3: military had got it to a point where it's reasonably
S3: stable there. Then they transitioned over to a law enforcement
S3: led stabilisation program, which is actually lauded by a lot
S3: of overseas governments going what Australia did in that context
S3: was actually very unique and very successful.
S2: And any of those deployments over that time that that
S2: come to mind, any anyone that can give us a
S2: bit of a spotlight on. Yeah, what you were doing there.
S3: You know, obviously it's a very unique environment to, um,
S3: you're talking proper jungle. You know, it's the most likely
S3: place on the planet. You're going to get malaria out
S3: of anywhere on Earth. Solomon Islands is number one. There's crocodiles. There's, um,
S3: ex militia. We had a particular militia individual. And you've
S3: got to understand some of these. The Civil War they'd had,
S3: they're now over. So they weren't militia anymore. They were
S3: just militia. So we had our like our top ten
S3: that we were just sort of systematically hunting down and arresting.
S3: And there's a there's another layer of complexity when you're
S3: hunting down people who are armed overseas in the jungle,
S3: you know, if we killed them, that's a deemed a failure.
S3: If anyone, anyone, offender included, is harmed or killed. So
S3: with some information to come in for that particular militia individual,
S3: it actually come from a couple of our sources. And
S3: there reasoning was because they were terrorizing their village areas.
S3: I don't think that's sort of naturally inclined to dob
S3: on someone, but it was like, actually, we need this
S3: guy away from our kids and and our family environments. So,
S3: you know, we met with some guys, made sure that
S3: the information that they were giving us was credible, and
S3: then put together a mission plan that you would back
S3: here in, in Australia, likely from a in that smack format. Um,
S3: so very carefully planned out, you know, missions requirements and
S3: who was doing what. We were at um, JBR in Guadalcanal.
S3: We were going to motor five hours down the coast
S3: stage 2 or 3km offshore, and then covertly insert 1:00
S3: in the morning using, um, rubber inflatable boats. The sources,
S3: you know, that were going to be in situ. I'd
S3: given them some, um, like er asylum sticks and given
S3: them some direction. Say, I want you to put it like,
S3: you know, this many steps apart, 20m apart. And I
S3: want you to hang it up, you know, at least
S3: you know. So six, eight feet in the air off
S3: one of the trees. So when we're coming in, we're
S3: going to have reasonably pinpointed where we want to meet you.
S3: But that's our visual recognition because just in case it
S3: changes due to some sort of environmental, um, and.
S2: What you're talking about is, is these, um, sign points,
S2: if you will, that can only be picked up with not,
S2: not vision goggles. So but and you've got some folks,
S2: insiders in there that are almost guiding you into where
S2: you need to be.
S3: Yeah. And those locals did a great job, to be
S3: honest with you. Some of the the locals would walk
S3: in with you at nighttime. Are you going, how is
S3: this guy doing what he's doing? Like I'm struggling. It's
S3: stinking hot. And, um, I'm using the latest, you know,
S3: $30,000 MG systems. And I'm looking at this guy, and
S3: he's walking with no shoes on, and he's doing exactly
S3: the same job. Yeah. I was like, going, you know,
S3: we might think we're cool, but that guy's a little
S3: bit cooler, you know? Anyway, because we've got to be
S3: careful too, because the, um, as you'd expect, having some
S3: foreign team roll into your village, it's not going to
S3: be always, um, met with open arms, depending on where
S3: it was in the Solomon Islands. All in chain. So
S3: we need to do what we we do as quickly
S3: and efficiently and safely for everyone as we can. But
S3: we can't muck around either because, you know, then you
S3: sort of introduce a whole different level of complexity. In
S3: this occasion, our quarry had an attempt to flee, but
S3: the measures we'd put in place, he was sort of
S3: wrapped up pretty quickly and without any, um, significant injury.
S2: And then what happens? You take him back to Honiara
S2: or something like that, and it's. And he's handed over
S2: to local police. Yeah.
S3: I mean, we're still in the middle of nowhere. So
S3: it's like, yeah. Quick apologies to the, the chief of
S3: that village. So, you know, we're doing this for your
S3: benefit just as much as the rest of the country.
S3: And then we just got out of there as quick
S3: as we can as soon as we got to our shoreline,
S3: you know, vessel came in because obviously it didn't have
S3: to be covert anymore. Pick him up, and then, you know,
S3: they'd take him back to. Guadalcanal, Roosevelt Prison. And then
S3: we just, you know, make sure we got all our
S3: kit and get on their rubber. Yeah. Rubber inflatables. Get
S3: on the boat. Go back.
S2: Might there be a lot of people listening, myself included,
S2: who would be almost surprised to hear, you know, the
S2: federal police actually play? That's like a paramilitary type of
S2: an operation. And, um, people do have an awareness of
S2: peacekeeping groups that have dropped into as they have been
S2: into Vanuatu and, you know, Solomons over the years. But
S2: that's sort of next level. And that's, as you said before,
S2: that's one of countless operations that you're involved in of
S2: a similar nature. Some probably went as well, some went
S2: a bit pear shaped. And, you know, goodness me, what
S2: a what a what a period of your life that
S2: must have been. Yeah.
S3: It's like I said, it's very unique for law enforcement
S3: at you know, the AFP does a really good job
S3: at actually um, I suppose covering off on those requirements.
S3: But they, they don't chest beat about it. Uh, it's
S3: very low key and there's good reason for that. You know,
S3: we can talk about it now. It's it's quite historic.
S3: They just work in the background and they get the results.
S3: But like I pinch myself all the time going, you know,
S3: it's such a steep requirement on on us as police,
S3: you know, from um, even even the tactical work we're
S3: doing here in Australia. It's like another level above that.
S3: Yeah for.
S5: Sure.
S2: It's sort of up there almost with sort of SAS
S2: specialist services type of deployments for the military, isn't it.
S2: It's not. It's not too far removed from some of
S2: that gear.
S3: Definitely the application of methodology and tactics. Um, obviously it
S3: is different. Of course, no one's no one's ever going
S3: to say any different, but the level of complexity you're
S3: using similar tradecraft. But, you know, there's some of the
S3: expectations on us from a results perspective and strategic and,
S3: you know, very, very different.
S2: Mike, I know guys that have done peacekeeping deployments, you know,
S2: Zealand police like Australian police into Vanuatu and things like that.
S2: But it's mate, nothing like that. That's next. That's next level.
S2: And like you say it's it's covert for a reason.
S2: It's uh yeah. Yeah. So Jason, after close to ten years,
S2: New South Wales Police and you were deployed in a
S2: range of different high level units. You had a short
S2: time away from the job overseas, came back into New
S2: South Wales policing. As is often the case, the punishment,
S2: of course, for going away as you come back into
S2: general duties, they. Yeah, they like to remind you that, well,
S2: you know, you've had to step away and you've got
S2: to pay your penance, don't you.
S3: Yeah, yeah. It's so, um, I resigned for an opportunity
S3: working in Iraq, and I was comfier. I'd sort of
S3: ticked all the boxes with that activity. I actually rejoined
S3: New South Wales. It's like a two week rejoin program
S3: in New South Wales, as you were saying. And yeah,
S3: I found myself, um, in a temporary sort of holding
S3: pattern in general duties, you know, five minutes from home
S3: on the Central Coast. And, um, to be honest with you,
S3: as much as I was not a happy camper when
S3: I found out that was what I was going to
S3: be doing for six months, maybe it was fantastic because I,
S3: you know, back in uniform, that's a core policing sort of,
S3: you know, provision. Yeah. You know, so you're back at
S3: your ground roots. But I'm back now and I've got kids.
S3: So my whole perspective on everything has changed. And obviously
S3: I've got a lot more experience because I've done my
S3: tactical work and I'd been just come back from a
S3: war zone. So, um, yeah, it was a it was
S3: a really good, um, I really enjoyed it.
S2: That's interesting, isn't it? Because like you say initially when
S2: you're told, oh, yeah, welcome back and welcome again, but
S2: you're going to be on general duties and it's a
S2: bit of a comedown from where you've been. It's almost
S2: a circling back to sort of 1997, 98. But but
S2: the actual once you got in amongst that, you're going,
S2: actually this is, this is why I joined in the
S2: this is sort of what it's all about.
S3: And also coming back from a war zone, there was
S3: a level of, um, like peace, you know, being, you know,
S3: even in the frenetic world of general duties, which it
S3: is out of control. This is nice and calm. So yeah,
S3: I really enjoyed it and I enjoyed coming in with
S3: a renewed passion for it. Yes, and perspective. And I
S3: was very grateful for being there.
S2: Now, interestingly, just on that, as you've said, you've come
S2: back from, you know, one of the highest profile war
S2: zones in the world, absolute carnage. You've come back into
S2: general duties and there's a sort of a calming feeling there. Then, tragically,
S2: you're sent to a job. You know, general duties, we know.
S2: You just never know what's going to come through the radio,
S2: you know? And things can be going along. You're there,
S2: you're working, and then suddenly you attend a job. And
S2: it's a job that that can stay with you for
S2: all the wrong reasons for the rest of your life.
S2: And I think you might have attended one of those.
S3: I was working on a Saturday with one of my partners,
S3: female partner, and, um, there was a job came on, uh,
S3: F3 freeway down near Hawkesbury of a motor vehicle accident. So, yeah,
S3: we copied that and made our way there.
S2: From pretty rough weather.
S3: A really localized storm cell went through really quickly, so
S3: by the time we got there, it was sun's out. Everything's,
S3: you know, quite wet. And there was a lot of
S3: water on the side of the freeway. And what had
S3: happened is a female driver, 29 years of age, coming
S3: down the freeway and just hit, aquaplaning her vehicle, and
S3: it shot through the guardrail, which is unusual. And it's
S3: quite a steep, heavily pretty dense, decent sized trees. So
S3: the car's bounced its way down. So it's going to
S3: be quite a serious accident. Um, I parked up near
S3: where the, um, where obviously her vehicles pushed through the
S3: barrier and left my partner up there with the radio
S3: and everything and just said, listen, when everyone starts turning up,
S3: you know, you're up here. So I climbed down because
S3: it was really arduous getting through all the the bush. And, um,
S3: I get to the car and the paramedics are sort
S3: of trying to work. There's one paramedic there, and he's
S3: trying to work out how to get her out of
S3: the car. And so he goes, just come here, hold
S3: her hand. And he went around the other side. And
S3: he was, you know, just working on and ensuring that
S3: the vehicle because it was jammed between two trees, that
S3: it wasn't just going to actually let go. And then
S3: him and I would get injured as well anyway. So
S3: I'm holding her hand and she's sort of just like, um,
S3: you know, taking really shallow, fast breathing, you know, obviously
S3: very seriously injured internally, really pretty, you know, just like
S3: everything about her looked untouched, you know, um, so I'm
S3: holding her hand and just trying to comfort her. And
S3: it's like, um, it's a that's a lot. There's a
S3: gravity in that, you know, and there's a lot of
S3: responsibility in that where you're holding someone's hand. And basically
S3: she took a last breath and I. So as soon
S3: as soon as she passed away, um, I've sort of
S3: deferred to the paramedic. Hey, do we need to be doing,
S3: you know, compressions? And you know what? What did he
S3: want me to do? And he goes, no, no, like, mate,
S3: she's gone. And because he'd already made some assessments and obviously, um,
S3: you know, he was. He was quite, um, sure of
S3: how bad you know, she was. And, you know, I
S3: don't go into their world. So he came over and
S3: we you did another assessment, and he goes, no matches.
S3: Like there's absolutely nothing we can do. Plus she like
S3: she was sort of jammed in. So it's not as
S3: if we could pull her out and do CPR easily. Um.
S3: The anyway. So yeah, she passed away and you know,
S3: so yesterday morning where I was like half an hour earlier,
S3: I was just looking forward to going down and around
S3: local cafe to get a coffee and fly the, the
S3: New South Wales Police flag around and um, then you
S3: hear and he and then he was like, wow. And
S3: anyway I said to him, I'm going to get back
S3: up to the freeway. And we're just, you know, I'd
S3: have to make a few calls, crash investigation. And, um,
S3: and then we've got to obviously be able to recover
S3: everything as well. And her. And I started walking up.
S3: I got about halfway up between where this car was
S3: and the road, and you can imagine I literally grab
S3: and hold of things to climb, and I hear a
S3: phone ring in the middle of the bush. And I
S3: knew straight away. It's obviously a phone. You know, it's
S3: popped out of her car when it's been banging. Anyway, um,
S3: it rang long enough for me to actually find it,
S3: and I picked it up, and then obviously, I'm not
S3: going to answer it, because then I've got to, you know,
S3: someone's going to say, well, why is this dude, you know,
S3: answering her phone? So I let it ring out. But
S3: then and then the message bank pops up on it
S3: straight away and it wasn't locked. You know, I just
S3: pressed play and then made the final error of putting
S3: it up and listening to it. And then I hear
S3: this message come into the phone from her eight year
S3: old son, who's. She'd been away for a weekend with
S3: some girlfriends, and obviously she was on her way home,
S3: so he rang her and basically the message was, hey mummy,
S3: I cannot wait to see you. I've missed you so much.
S3: And then we're going to the movies tonight. And then
S3: basically every little trigger you could imagine like that would
S3: really cut you to the bone. This eight year old
S3: kid said it in this message, and I'm standing there
S3: in the middle of the bush, and then the message ends,
S3: and I'm just standing there going, and it literally just
S3: floored me. Like it literally just sucked every bit of.
S3: Like air out of my lungs. And even now, like,
S3: I can still, um. Actually. Take myself back to that emotion.
S3: So I'm standing there just going. What? And I'll listen
S3: to that message. And then, um, I walk up to
S3: the roadway and, and my partner comes over and she goes,
S3: are you okay? Because I was just like, you know,
S3: just in my own little world for a second. And
S3: then I just handed her the phone and pressed the
S3: press the message. Unfortunately, I had to share the pie.
S3: And I suppose, anyway, next thing I know, she's in tears.
S3: She's in the car. And, um, because, you know, I'd explained,
S3: you know, that, um, his mum has just passed away.
S3: I was holding her hand. Um, so. Yeah. Um. You know,
S3: I've been involved and seen so many things over the
S3: years and so much tragedy and just like shocking stuff.
S3: But it's funny, the ones that really get under your skin,
S3: that one got under my skin because it was like, um. Just,
S3: you know, I was walking up and I was processing
S3: the fact and the gravity of just holding someone's hand
S3: with their last breaths. And, you know, it's just been,
S3: you know, talking to us softly and saying, you're going
S3: to be okay. The same things that people had said
S3: to me, you know, ten years earlier or 11 years earlier,
S3: you know, where I'm laying on the street just to
S3: have the. The gravity of it, reinforced by that that
S3: woman's child. Um, and because of now I've got I'm
S3: placing I'm doing, um, uniform policing and I've got kids
S3: of my own. The reality of the of that area
S3: in police work just like, hit me like a, like
S3: a brick to the side of the head. So, um,
S3: you know, just really, um, just come from left field
S3: and it doesn't allow you to set up some of
S3: those bits of armor that you normally get to start
S3: placing in front of you mentally, just like straight through
S3: to the keeper and, you know, touches you.
S2: There's a real rawness about it, isn't there? And it's Jason.
S2: It's I just, you know, the honesty in which you're
S2: speaking about this because like you said, you know, coppers
S2: can sit around and you can tell all these war
S2: stories and all these things that that people who haven't
S2: been the job, people haven't experienced it, that almost disbelieving.
S2: And then it's something like that and then it's tragedy.
S2: It's just such a simple thing. It's it's, um, you know,
S2: you're holding a woman's hand at the time of her death,
S2: but then the tipping point when the little bloke leaves
S2: the message on mum's phone and it's like you say,
S2: it's all that stuff, and maybe, maybe for you to Jason,
S2: there's that, uh, there's an unmistakable connection back to when
S2: you yourself were on the other side, almost, of that situation.
S2: You know, it's it's it's all comes in together, doesn't it.
S6: Yeah, yeah.
S3: And if you, if there's any silver lining to it,
S3: it's just the, um. Exposure to that level of tragedy
S3: and grief. The, um, you know, you wouldn't wish it
S3: upon anyone, but the one thing that I do draw
S3: from it, it's just the how, you know, precious and
S3: fleeting life can be. Like I said it, you. There's
S3: a couple of pathways you can go after. You know,
S3: you can sort of suck on your thumb and sit
S3: in the corner. Not that not the best analogy, but
S3: I know what you mean. You know, or you can, um,
S3: you know, learn from it as much as best you
S3: can and, you know, try to pull some positive from it.
S3: And I suppose for me it's just like, you know,
S3: maintaining my empathy. Whilst wearing a uniform. Being grateful all
S3: the time because you're breathing. And, um, you know, just
S3: having a positive pathways to how you try to process it. Yeah.
S2: I just want to thank you so much. This has been, um.
S2: Goodness me. I've just such enjoyed both meeting you and
S2: hearing some of your experiences, and and I just know
S2: that so many that will listen to this will take
S2: so much from it. It's such a storied career, but
S2: such a tragic start to it and all of that.
S2: But you know, for your honesty and opening up about that, Jason,
S2: I really thank you for that. Um, I've read through
S2: so much of the stuff that you've done and the
S2: different environments that you've worked in, and we could do
S2: half a dozen of these and still only touch on
S2: the surface. And I say that because for you to
S2: have included that story about that tragic event with that
S2: woman passing in the driving, it just it just sort
S2: of shows to me the person that you are because
S2: you've come back to the humanity of what it is that, um,
S2: police officers do. And it's not it's not chest beating. It's, it's, it's.
S2: And you said that yourself, you know, this was just
S2: a job that you attended on a Saturday afternoon, a
S2: Saturday morning. And yet it's one of those ones for
S2: all these different reasons that will stay with you for
S2: the rest of your life. And, uh, Jason, just thank
S2: you so much for coming and thanks for your honesty
S2: and thanks for sharing this with us.
S3: Thank you very much for having me. And, um, there's
S3: a little bit of trauma in there, of course, but, um,
S3: you know, for any of the listeners, especially if there's
S3: anyone still within law enforcement, it's like, um, you know,
S3: if the only advice I would give is remember why
S3: you joined the police, you just be grateful all the
S3: time of, I suppose, the opportunity you have to help
S3: other people and never lose sight of that because it's
S3: easy to maintain empathy, but maintain that empathy for yourself
S3: as well. If you don't have empathy for yourself, yeah,
S3: it's going to be very hard to do so for others.
S3: So yeah, thank you so much for having me and
S3: I appreciate your time.
S2: Crime insiders. Detectives is a listener. Original production. It's hosted
S2: by me, Brent Sanders, produced by Ed Gordon and sound
S2: designed and imaged by Link Kelly.