1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:04,240 S1: A listener production. 2 00:00:08,730 --> 00:00:13,050 S2: G'day. I'm former police officer Brent Sanders, and for the 3 00:00:13,050 --> 00:00:17,189 S2: past 25 years, I've dedicated myself to sharing what I've 4 00:00:17,190 --> 00:00:20,130 S2: learned on the force to the Australian public so they 5 00:00:20,130 --> 00:00:24,299 S2: can better protect themselves from falling victim to crime. In 6 00:00:24,540 --> 00:00:28,200 S2: this episode, I'm going to take a slightly different approach 7 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,770 S2: with my guest. I'm going to probe into the personal 8 00:00:31,770 --> 00:00:36,390 S2: and emotional experience of policing and what it feels like 9 00:00:36,420 --> 00:00:40,470 S2: to be with people, be it victims or perpetrators, on 10 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:42,900 S2: the worst day of their lives. 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,440 S3: I was walking up and I was processing the fact 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,750 S3: and the gravity of just holding someone's hand with their 13 00:00:48,750 --> 00:00:49,739 S3: last breaths. 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,420 S2: Jason Semple started in general duties with the New South 15 00:00:54,420 --> 00:00:59,700 S2: Wales Police, before eventually joining the Australian Federal Police Specialist 16 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:03,660 S2: Response Group, where he was deployed on peacekeeping missions in 17 00:01:03,660 --> 00:01:09,150 S2: places like Afghanistan and the Solomon Islands. After nine years overseas, 18 00:01:09,150 --> 00:01:12,899 S2: Jason returned home and step back into his New South 19 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:18,509 S2: Wales Police uniform. To begin this chat, we're going back 20 00:01:18,510 --> 00:01:22,860 S2: to 1998. It's Jason's second week on the job as 21 00:01:22,860 --> 00:01:26,759 S2: a probationary constable with the New South Wales Police in Sydney. 22 00:01:27,300 --> 00:01:30,209 S2: He's off duty and walking home with a mate after 23 00:01:30,209 --> 00:01:31,800 S2: a few quiet drinks. 24 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:36,180 S4: Um. 25 00:01:36,630 --> 00:01:39,720 S3: It's something it did turn horribly wrong, and it, um. 26 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,830 S3: I suppose no one's ever prepared for it, especially in 27 00:01:43,830 --> 00:01:47,220 S3: law enforcement. You know, the risk is there. But, um, 28 00:01:47,490 --> 00:01:51,150 S3: it's always that old story. Won't happen to me. And 29 00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:54,090 S3: two weeks after coming out of the academy, I'm lying 30 00:01:54,090 --> 00:01:57,810 S3: in the gutter, you know, thinking I'm 100% convinced that 31 00:01:57,810 --> 00:02:00,900 S3: I'm going to die right there. Right then on a 32 00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:04,110 S3: Friday night and a wet, cold street in Sydney. So 33 00:02:04,110 --> 00:02:08,070 S3: it was, uh, not the, uh, start to law enforcement 34 00:02:08,070 --> 00:02:11,160 S3: that you're looking for, but we don't get to choose, 35 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,889 S3: you know, when these events occur. So two weeks earlier 36 00:02:13,889 --> 00:02:16,980 S3: at the police academy, it was Friday the 13th, and 37 00:02:16,980 --> 00:02:20,490 S3: I actually made a joke. Is anyone else not thinking 38 00:02:20,490 --> 00:02:22,620 S3: this is a really bad day to walk out on 39 00:02:22,620 --> 00:02:26,400 S3: our passing out parade? Been Friday the 13th. And so 40 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,760 S3: I suppose my joke on that occasion sort of came back. 41 00:02:29,910 --> 00:02:31,740 S2: Came back to bite me mate. I went into the 42 00:02:31,740 --> 00:02:34,110 S2: police academy on April Fool's Day, so maybe there's a 43 00:02:34,110 --> 00:02:38,580 S2: connection there now on this, on this night, 28th of February, 44 00:02:38,580 --> 00:02:41,970 S2: you're with Peter Forsyth. Uh, Brian Neville. You'd been just 45 00:02:41,970 --> 00:02:44,730 S2: out having a couple of social beers, and my understanding 46 00:02:44,730 --> 00:02:48,900 S2: is you're walking back through Ultimo, and this is pretty 47 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:52,260 S2: close to to Brian Forsyth's house. You're within 100m or so. 48 00:02:52,260 --> 00:02:53,820 S2: His wife, couple of kids. 49 00:02:53,820 --> 00:02:57,600 S3: Yeah. So, you know, we dropped Peter off earlier in 50 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,580 S3: his shift. In our shift, he had to do a 51 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:05,700 S3: prisoner escort flying a young offender interstate. And, um, I 52 00:03:05,700 --> 00:03:07,829 S3: was actually really well behaved. I was drinking mid strength, 53 00:03:08,250 --> 00:03:10,230 S3: you know, so no one was intoxicated. And, you know, 54 00:03:10,230 --> 00:03:12,030 S3: walking back down the street, you'd need to take into 55 00:03:12,030 --> 00:03:14,700 S3: account two that I was wearing my police uniform, but 56 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:16,470 S3: I had a t shirt on over the top, you 57 00:03:16,470 --> 00:03:20,550 S3: know quite clear to anyone in our business. You know, 58 00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:23,550 S3: the criminals obviously have just as good at recognizing us 59 00:03:23,550 --> 00:03:28,109 S3: as we are them. And a young bloke incredibly approached 60 00:03:28,110 --> 00:03:33,090 S3: and tried to sell us an ecstasy tablet. Um, and 61 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,110 S3: I was actually just gobsmacked. The, I suppose, the forwardness 62 00:03:37,110 --> 00:03:39,780 S3: of it. I think he was only about 15 or 16, 63 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,050 S3: and obviously because it was so close to Pete's house 64 00:03:43,050 --> 00:03:45,750 S3: and some sort of activity like that's occurring near where 65 00:03:45,750 --> 00:03:48,150 S3: you're where you live and where you've got young kids 66 00:03:48,150 --> 00:03:50,850 S3: and you're in the police. You don't turn a blind 67 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,730 S3: eye to it. So, you know, Pete, you may have 68 00:03:53,730 --> 00:03:57,360 S3: been a probationary constable at the time. I just basically 69 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,600 S3: kind of watch and listen. And, you know, he had 70 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,990 S3: a conversation with this young bloke and then who indicated 71 00:04:03,990 --> 00:04:07,890 S3: that the actual drugs were, um, with his brother across 72 00:04:07,890 --> 00:04:11,130 S3: the road, you know, so a quick conversation, he's gone 73 00:04:11,130 --> 00:04:16,170 S3: over and the offender has come over, obviously, to sell 74 00:04:16,170 --> 00:04:19,950 S3: us the tablet in his mind at that point, you know, 75 00:04:19,950 --> 00:04:24,150 S3: Pete and Brian really took charge. Um, he was under 76 00:04:24,150 --> 00:04:27,239 S3: no illusion that we were police and that he was 77 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:32,070 S3: being detained. And Pete and Brian were directing him to 78 00:04:32,070 --> 00:04:34,890 S3: get some identification out. He had a bum bag, you know, 79 00:04:34,890 --> 00:04:37,650 S3: zipper front bum bag on at the time, it sort 80 00:04:37,650 --> 00:04:39,270 S3: of sitting on his haunches and he was just taking 81 00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:41,970 S3: a little bit too much time, you know, rifling through 82 00:04:41,970 --> 00:04:45,180 S3: the bum bag at that point. Pete. So I get up, 83 00:04:45,180 --> 00:04:47,729 S3: you know, it's just taken too long. So if you're 84 00:04:47,730 --> 00:04:49,679 S3: not going to do it properly, we will at a 85 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,859 S3: certain point. Then he's basically said to the words, the 86 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:56,130 S3: fact I'm out of here, you know, and pushed off. 87 00:04:56,130 --> 00:04:58,860 S3: And at that point I was on the far left 88 00:04:58,860 --> 00:05:01,230 S3: and he pushed off. I pushed him back into against 89 00:05:01,230 --> 00:05:04,770 S3: the doors because obviously he's not going anywhere. And, um, 90 00:05:05,610 --> 00:05:08,760 S3: I felt a couple of like, punches, which I thought 91 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,830 S3: they were punches. So one to my chest and then 92 00:05:11,070 --> 00:05:15,450 S3: one of my abdominal area and um, thinking, is that 93 00:05:15,450 --> 00:05:19,250 S3: the best you got? But, um. From a psychology point 94 00:05:19,250 --> 00:05:22,160 S3: of view, my brain had not detected what was actually 95 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:27,560 S3: occurring and. Then I hear Bryan yell out, knife, knife, knife, 96 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,380 S3: you know? And he has actually pushed myself and Peter 97 00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:32,660 S3: out of the way because he could see what we 98 00:05:32,660 --> 00:05:36,350 S3: obviously we we didn't see. And as soon as Brian 99 00:05:36,350 --> 00:05:40,580 S3: said that this is all happening in microseconds, right. You 100 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:43,310 S3: wouldn't think it would occur. But I've actually even still 101 00:05:43,310 --> 00:05:46,370 S3: at that point in time, I actually my brain starts 102 00:05:46,370 --> 00:05:49,070 S3: putting two and two together and go, hang on is 103 00:05:49,070 --> 00:05:52,549 S3: a knife. I've definitely felt some impacts and looked down. 104 00:05:52,550 --> 00:05:56,270 S3: I pulled my shirt up and then, you know, literally 105 00:05:56,270 --> 00:06:00,650 S3: blood was spraying out of my abdominal wound. At that point, 106 00:06:00,650 --> 00:06:05,330 S3: the offender has run off with Brian in pursuit. Pete's 107 00:06:05,330 --> 00:06:09,320 S3: turned to me spawn a few times and basically laid 108 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,900 S3: me down into the gutter, and he's yelling at the 109 00:06:11,900 --> 00:06:15,320 S3: top of his voice, you know, trying to alert any 110 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,480 S3: of the locals that are because there's people living straight 111 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,720 S3: across the road in those dwellings. Um, so he's yelling 112 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,270 S3: at the top of his voice to get help, and 113 00:06:23,270 --> 00:06:25,160 S3: lights are turning on. So, you know, obviously there's a 114 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,280 S3: bit of activity. Then he's he's turned me sort of 115 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,470 S3: leaning over me. I'm sort of half in the gutter, 116 00:06:30,470 --> 00:06:33,680 S3: half on the pathway. And he goes, show me, because 117 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,279 S3: I've got my hand over my, my abdominal wound. So 118 00:06:37,370 --> 00:06:38,900 S3: just give me a look. And I took my hand 119 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:44,450 S3: off and it's like obviously bleeding profusely. And he's, you know, 120 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:46,790 S3: put my hand back on and he goes off, you know, 121 00:06:47,150 --> 00:06:49,520 S3: whatever you do like I'll say it how he said it. 122 00:06:49,550 --> 00:06:53,419 S3: He said, keep your hand on that. And I was like, no, 123 00:06:53,420 --> 00:06:59,690 S3: no problem. And um. It's the most surreal, life altering. 124 00:07:00,140 --> 00:07:03,710 S3: It's even to this day. The fear is tangible. You 125 00:07:03,710 --> 00:07:05,630 S3: could pick it up with a forklift and move it around. 126 00:07:05,630 --> 00:07:10,370 S3: It's a real entity anyway. A very short period of 127 00:07:10,370 --> 00:07:16,140 S3: time elapsed. And Pete collapsed on top of me. And 128 00:07:16,140 --> 00:07:19,440 S3: at that time I actually just thought, it's funny, you know, 129 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,240 S3: you're in shock and there's a lot of there's a 130 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,830 S3: lot going on. And I thought Pete had fainted because 131 00:07:25,950 --> 00:07:30,000 S3: he'd been talking to me. There is no external indication 132 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,150 S3: that he'd been injured. There's no blood on him. Except 133 00:07:33,540 --> 00:07:36,690 S3: for most likely mine. It was one of those moments 134 00:07:36,690 --> 00:07:41,130 S3: where it's a little bit confusing, but you become self-absorbed. 135 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,290 S3: I think it's the one time you can be narcissistic 136 00:07:43,290 --> 00:07:46,530 S3: and think about yourself because you're in this position and. 137 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:50,190 S3: And it's quite dire. Um, I actually struggled with this 138 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:56,160 S3: for a long time afterwards, not thinking towards him, maybe 139 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:57,900 S3: like I should have. Right. But at the end of 140 00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:00,210 S3: the day, you react in the way. You're only a 141 00:08:00,210 --> 00:08:01,080 S3: young fella. 142 00:08:01,410 --> 00:08:02,490 S2: How old were you? Just out of. 143 00:08:02,490 --> 00:08:03,720 S3: Interest. 25. 144 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,600 S2: And you had a second knife wound as well. Were 145 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:07,950 S2: you aware of that at the time. 146 00:08:07,950 --> 00:08:08,430 S3: Or at the time? 147 00:08:08,550 --> 00:08:09,390 S2: Not at the time. 148 00:08:09,390 --> 00:08:12,750 S3: So that one was directly over my heart, but the 149 00:08:12,750 --> 00:08:15,180 S3: rib caught it, so it split the rib. So it 150 00:08:15,180 --> 00:08:17,310 S3: did a bit of damage, but it never went through 151 00:08:17,310 --> 00:08:20,160 S3: the rib. So the rib did its job as a 152 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,030 S3: part of your anatomy. Even if five millimetres either side 153 00:08:24,030 --> 00:08:27,270 S3: of where that knife struck, it would have slid off 154 00:08:27,270 --> 00:08:29,280 S3: your rib and going straight in and wouldn't be talking 155 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,080 S3: to you. So it's like, yeah, that's uh, that's quite horrific. 156 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:38,380 S2: So Pete is lying on top of you. You're thinking yourself, 157 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,610 S2: I'm done here. I'm gone. Yeah. And you're thinking, I 158 00:08:42,610 --> 00:08:44,680 S2: don't know, but you're thinking, I don't know what's happened 159 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,780 S2: to Pete. But he. Maybe he's fainted because of all 160 00:08:46,780 --> 00:08:50,110 S2: the blood. Maybe something's happened. But you're not thinking. No, 161 00:08:50,110 --> 00:08:52,780 S2: I'm not thinking. He's been in any way injured. Stabbed 162 00:08:52,780 --> 00:08:55,329 S2: or anything. And then does Brian come back? 163 00:08:55,330 --> 00:09:00,040 S3: Yes. So during that period where Pete is, like, screaming 164 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,750 S3: to get people's attention. Yeah. That also triggered Brian as 165 00:09:04,750 --> 00:09:07,750 S3: he was in pursuit to sort of look back. You know, 166 00:09:07,750 --> 00:09:10,630 S3: Brian got down to there's a major intersection and the 167 00:09:10,630 --> 00:09:14,109 S3: offenders turned right to go into a very busy part 168 00:09:14,110 --> 00:09:17,770 S3: of Sydney and saw at that point saw that both 169 00:09:17,770 --> 00:09:20,710 S3: of us were on the ground and then realized that 170 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,459 S3: getting the offender isn't as important as potentially coming back 171 00:09:24,460 --> 00:09:25,900 S3: and looking after us. 172 00:09:26,770 --> 00:09:28,780 S2: When he took off after the offender, which is that 173 00:09:28,780 --> 00:09:31,510 S2: natural instinct to do that. He's seen the knife, but 174 00:09:31,510 --> 00:09:34,420 S2: he didn't see you or Peter gets up, so he 175 00:09:34,420 --> 00:09:37,660 S2: probably had no idea taking off that you'd been expecting. 176 00:09:37,660 --> 00:09:38,260 S3: Us to be right. 177 00:09:38,350 --> 00:09:39,220 S2: Right behind him. 178 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:41,350 S3: Yeah. And then when he's turned around and we're both 179 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,410 S3: lying on the ground. Yeah, he's obviously the enormity of 180 00:09:44,410 --> 00:09:46,929 S3: of that has hit him. And he's always come, come 181 00:09:46,929 --> 00:09:51,550 S3: back to us. Um, when he got up to me, um, 182 00:09:51,820 --> 00:09:54,520 S3: I was still cognizant of everything around me to a 183 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,569 S3: hyper level, actually, I remember I was focusing on, like, 184 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,500 S3: there was a river of my blood going down the pathway, and, 185 00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:05,260 S3: and I was watching it go over the, um, the 186 00:10:05,260 --> 00:10:08,439 S3: lip of the gutter. And that was, you know, one 187 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,440 S3: of those visuals where you go, well, there's no way 188 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,199 S3: in the world that I'm surviving this, you know? And 189 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,080 S3: it was just sheer like I said, it's a tangible 190 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:25,720 S3: entity of fear. It's a very overwhelming self-preservation. Um, period. Um, 191 00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:30,550 S3: when Brian came up, he's pulled, paid off. Our legs 192 00:10:30,550 --> 00:10:32,860 S3: are sort of tangled. And the next thing you know, 193 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,610 S3: Brian's doing CPR and I'm, like, going, what is. He 194 00:10:36,610 --> 00:10:39,310 S3: had a heart attack because there's no wound. There's no 195 00:10:39,309 --> 00:10:43,510 S3: visible injury whatsoever. Of course, you can look at it 196 00:10:43,510 --> 00:10:46,599 S3: now and go, you just got stabbed. Well, but it 197 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,760 S3: was just a sheer lack of, um, any external visible indicator. 198 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,940 S3: That was, I suppose, through the confusion for me. And 199 00:10:54,940 --> 00:10:56,290 S3: you're not thinking it your best. 200 00:10:56,970 --> 00:11:00,810 S2: So Brian's obviously aware because he's doing CPR that, uh, 201 00:11:00,809 --> 00:11:05,189 S2: Pete's in a bad way. And ambulances, the paramedics arrive. 202 00:11:05,190 --> 00:11:08,250 S2: Ambulance is called. Who's first on scene at that point? Ah. 203 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,770 S3: You know, there's a lot of things that came together, 204 00:11:10,860 --> 00:11:13,920 S3: you know, as with a lot of tragedy, there's all 205 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,040 S3: these little intricate nuances that sometimes come together that put 206 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,650 S3: someone somewhere that x, Y, and Z happens, you know, 207 00:11:19,890 --> 00:11:23,400 S3: and you think it's incredibly unlucky that x, Y, and 208 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,709 S3: Z came together in that person. This has happened to them. 209 00:11:25,710 --> 00:11:29,970 S3: That can work for you as well. Yes. So by 210 00:11:29,970 --> 00:11:33,570 S3: Meg Gilchrist, God bless her. There was two ambulance buses 211 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:36,510 S3: if you want to call them, their crews from different 212 00:11:36,510 --> 00:11:39,870 S3: areas catching up for a coffee, you know, Friday night, 213 00:11:39,870 --> 00:11:42,150 S3: busy shift. You know, the type of work they do. 214 00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:48,540 S3: It's incredible. So lucky for me, they were literally 60s away. So, yeah, 215 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:51,600 S3: I was really lucky. But you know, once again, the guilt, 216 00:11:51,809 --> 00:11:54,600 S3: the guilt that I had to deal with later because 217 00:11:54,780 --> 00:11:57,750 S3: when they arrived, they go straight to Pete and start 218 00:11:57,750 --> 00:12:01,860 S3: trying to give lifesaving first aid. And I'm like going, 219 00:12:02,220 --> 00:12:03,929 S3: what is going on with Pete? You know, like, is 220 00:12:03,929 --> 00:12:07,320 S3: it very confused? And then I'm here by myself bleeding 221 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,989 S3: profusely and no one's with me, you know, I mean, 222 00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:14,310 S3: like it was like it's almost a selfish self-preservation, um, 223 00:12:14,309 --> 00:12:15,959 S3: you know, mentality gets in, but. 224 00:12:16,260 --> 00:12:19,860 S2: You're also just dealing with the information that you're processing, and, 225 00:12:19,860 --> 00:12:22,260 S2: and there's a lot of confusion there, and you're in 226 00:12:22,260 --> 00:12:25,020 S2: shock and. Hold on. Yeah. It's it's not something you 227 00:12:25,020 --> 00:12:25,680 S2: can prepare for. 228 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,480 S3: That period of time feels like I could talk about 229 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,579 S3: it in a detail that you would swear it went 230 00:12:29,580 --> 00:12:33,180 S3: for 30 minutes, but it's only two minutes. Yes. You know. Yes. 231 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,050 S3: So obviously the second crew come over and start, you know, 232 00:12:37,050 --> 00:12:40,400 S3: working on me. Um. Well, I don't think I was 233 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,100 S3: really one of their best patients. If you. You know, 234 00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:46,069 S3: if you talk to VI. Mainly because I was just 235 00:12:46,070 --> 00:12:49,819 S3: so hyper alert to the position I was in. 236 00:12:49,940 --> 00:12:53,660 S2: So both you and Peter taken to local hospital, it 237 00:12:53,660 --> 00:12:56,930 S2: would have been what, RPA close to there, I suppose. Yeah. 238 00:12:56,929 --> 00:12:59,600 S3: So we're not far away, which is in my favor 239 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,650 S3: as well. Um. What I didn't realize is, you know, 240 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,790 S3: before I was getting transported, um, the commander who was 241 00:13:07,790 --> 00:13:12,260 S3: from City Central when he arrived, he looked over at 242 00:13:12,260 --> 00:13:14,570 S3: the two of us and go, someone go get a 243 00:13:14,570 --> 00:13:18,320 S3: dying declaration of me. He was like, there is no 244 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,220 S3: way his surviving those injuries, and not with the amount 245 00:13:22,220 --> 00:13:24,890 S3: of blood that was around. Um, you know, when I 246 00:13:24,890 --> 00:13:27,470 S3: talked to him later, he was convinced in his mind, 247 00:13:27,980 --> 00:13:30,710 S3: I was most at risk. But, you know, which is weird, 248 00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:33,110 S3: because Pete had already passed realistically. 249 00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:35,510 S2: So he. Peter passed at the scene. 250 00:13:35,929 --> 00:13:39,020 S3: Yeah, he'd already at that point, um, that was still 251 00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:41,420 S3: trying to stabilize me. And they and Pete had left 252 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:45,470 S3: in an ambulance. So that boss, obviously, if Pete had 253 00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:49,040 S3: still been there, they were taking the hospital and still 254 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,640 S3: obviously performing CPR all the way there. When he saw 255 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,040 S3: me and the injuries and but, you know, he was 256 00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:58,340 S3: obviously of that opinion that wasn't going to make it. 257 00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:02,490 S2: You lost, like, five liters of blood or something? Yeah, 258 00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:04,590 S2: just on five. How many do we have? 259 00:14:04,620 --> 00:14:09,000 S3: I don't know, five liters. And you know the the 260 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,470 S3: circumstantial aspects again, you know. There was like a chief 261 00:14:13,470 --> 00:14:16,770 S3: surgeon been doing some training at RPA that week. So 262 00:14:16,770 --> 00:14:20,760 S3: in terms of the injury I had, he's delivering training 263 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,570 S3: to other surgeons on procedural, you know, improvements or whatever 264 00:14:24,570 --> 00:14:27,660 S3: in that space. He's he was at RPA. So you know. 265 00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,330 S3: You know, I roll up there and I've got this, 266 00:14:30,330 --> 00:14:32,970 S3: this incredible, you know, surge in there. 267 00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:36,940 S2: Any pain at that point because you've not mentioned it? No. 268 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,030 S2: And that's that's a bizarre thing too, isn't it? That's 269 00:14:40,030 --> 00:14:42,730 S2: sort of a scene. That sort of incident should be 270 00:14:42,730 --> 00:14:46,930 S2: connected to being an almost excruciating pain as you're clinging 271 00:14:46,930 --> 00:14:49,360 S2: on literally for life on the footpath. But you've not 272 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,880 S2: mentioned it once. There was no no memory of any pain. 273 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:57,640 S3: No pain. No. Your body just diverts energy and attention elsewhere. 274 00:14:58,060 --> 00:15:00,970 S3: There was a few times I felt things about it. 275 00:15:00,970 --> 00:15:03,490 S3: I think it was just so there was the gravity 276 00:15:03,490 --> 00:15:07,300 S3: of it was so immense that it overrode, you know, 277 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:08,980 S3: because at the end of the day, it's, you know, 278 00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:11,350 S3: it's a cut through your skin. So it's not like 279 00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:13,240 S3: I was broken leg or hanging off. 280 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,530 S2: So at what point did you become aware that Peter 281 00:15:18,010 --> 00:15:18,550 S2: had gone? 282 00:15:18,580 --> 00:15:22,210 S3: I asked quite a few times prior to going into surgery. 283 00:15:22,780 --> 00:15:25,720 S3: It was like, oh, he's fine, um, he's fine. He's 284 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,670 S3: in the next room, you know, so there's a few 285 00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:31,270 S3: little white lies, you know, said to me, probably hopefully 286 00:15:31,270 --> 00:15:35,200 S3: calm me down. I was happy to know that. So 287 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,920 S3: I just basically stared at a, uh, one of the 288 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,580 S3: diagnostic machines and tried to control my blood pressure and 289 00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:46,450 S3: my pulse, you know, trying to calm myself. And I 290 00:15:46,450 --> 00:15:48,610 S3: can thank Mick Drury. Um, I don't know if you 291 00:15:48,610 --> 00:15:51,790 S3: know who my crew is from the old Blue murder. 292 00:15:51,970 --> 00:15:52,270 S3: He's an. 293 00:15:52,270 --> 00:15:53,200 S2: Author now. Yeah. 294 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,600 S3: Yeah, yeah. And he's a is a Neddy Smith. 295 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:55,930 S2: Sort of. 296 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,390 S3: Yeah, yeah. Out of that era. Like one of the 297 00:15:58,690 --> 00:16:02,560 S3: most talented undercover operatives that probably New South Wales had. 298 00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:05,650 S3: But I'd been reading his book the night before, and 299 00:16:05,650 --> 00:16:08,950 S3: I got to a point where there was assassination attempt 300 00:16:08,950 --> 00:16:11,470 S3: on him at his home in North Sydney. So I 301 00:16:11,470 --> 00:16:13,330 S3: got to that chapter where I knew this is a 302 00:16:13,330 --> 00:16:17,870 S3: chapter who gets shot in. And I nearly didn't read it. 303 00:16:17,870 --> 00:16:19,790 S3: And then I'll go, no, I have to read that 304 00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:22,040 S3: before I go to sleep. So I read that chapter, 305 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,460 S3: and in that bit, Mick refers to the fact he's 306 00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:29,090 S3: lying on his floor in his kitchen, bleeding profusely, even 307 00:16:29,090 --> 00:16:32,600 S3: less understanding of first aid training back in those days. 308 00:16:33,230 --> 00:16:35,120 S3: And he goes, he knew the only thing you could 309 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,860 S3: really do to give himself some level of hope was calm. 310 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,200 S3: If I stay calm, I don't go into shock and 311 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,170 S3: I don't bleed as much. You know, so I'm reading 312 00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:47,870 S3: that night before, you know, a lot of people say 313 00:16:47,870 --> 00:16:50,870 S3: when a certain incidents occur, you know, their life flashes 314 00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:56,360 S3: before their eyes. Obviously, some degree people have different experiences, 315 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,290 S3: but I'd rather use the analogy. It's like your brain, 316 00:17:00,290 --> 00:17:02,990 S3: you've now got an issue that you really don't have 317 00:17:02,990 --> 00:17:06,380 S3: any expertise to fix, and your brain's just searching for 318 00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:09,320 S3: a way like a like you've done a Google search. 319 00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:12,649 S3: What do I do here? And so it's going to everything, 320 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:16,100 S3: every exposure you've ever had to trying to lock onto something. 321 00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:19,640 S3: My brain locked onto what Mick had said in his book. 322 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,449 S3: And so that was I was like, um. Pathologically trying 323 00:17:24,450 --> 00:17:26,730 S3: to remain calm. You know, even when people come up 324 00:17:26,730 --> 00:17:29,879 S3: and ask me a question, I'd literally, probably rudely, a 325 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,550 S3: few times tell people to where to go because you're 326 00:17:32,550 --> 00:17:37,020 S3: interrupting my my concentration on being calm, if that makes sense. Yeah. 327 00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:40,080 S3: And you go back to your to answer your question, 328 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,430 S3: I woke up the next day. So Saturday morning and 329 00:17:45,060 --> 00:17:47,910 S3: you know, it's like when you come out of anesthesia, 330 00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:50,520 S3: I've got the police commissioner at the end of my 331 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,970 S3: bed and, you know, all these people and, um, I mean, 332 00:17:53,970 --> 00:17:57,419 S3: I had this level of elation that you couldn't, you know, 333 00:17:57,420 --> 00:18:01,020 S3: this almost the same gravity as what? The fear I'd 334 00:18:01,020 --> 00:18:03,330 S3: had the night before. It's like, oh, I cannot believe it. 335 00:18:03,330 --> 00:18:08,369 S3: I'm here. And then the the follow on questions on Pete, 336 00:18:08,369 --> 00:18:12,510 S3: and you get told that he's actually passed away. So, 337 00:18:12,510 --> 00:18:15,930 S3: you know, derails that, um, elation pretty quick. 338 00:18:16,170 --> 00:18:20,010 S2: And that's there's another emotion that experience called what you 339 00:18:20,010 --> 00:18:22,860 S2: will that you just can't prepare for. So there's, there's 340 00:18:22,859 --> 00:18:26,190 S2: the elation of I've survived matched against the fact that 341 00:18:26,190 --> 00:18:28,709 S2: you might your colleague who was trying to save you 342 00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:31,800 S2: has passed away. Would it be fair to say, Jason, 343 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,230 S2: at that time you experienced almost a bit of guilt? 344 00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:35,190 S2: Is that one of the emotions. 345 00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:36,060 S3: Amount of guilt? 346 00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:38,250 S2: Yeah. Yeah. Is that still with you today? 347 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,700 S3: Uh, no, because I've been able to process it, um, 348 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:44,909 S3: and put it in its true in its proper context. Yeah. 349 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:48,240 S3: Especially sort of really think about the true timelines of 350 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,270 S3: what was occurring at the time. Yes. Um, and there's 351 00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:52,980 S3: no way to go back and change it. 352 00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:55,169 S2: But it's something that you carry for, for a period 353 00:18:55,170 --> 00:18:56,909 S2: of time as you're trying to, as you're trying to 354 00:18:56,910 --> 00:18:57,960 S2: process it all. 355 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,869 S3: Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a tough one, but it's 356 00:19:00,869 --> 00:19:03,510 S3: just one. You just got to process it. And um, 357 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,190 S3: I suppose learn to get to some point where you're 358 00:19:08,190 --> 00:19:11,100 S3: at peace with any decisions you did or didn't make. 359 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,240 S2: So you eventually, of course, you know, there would have 360 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,409 S2: been quite a substantial period of hospitalization, rehabilitation, the whole 361 00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:23,040 S2: nine yards. At some point you're back in that uniform. 362 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,830 S2: You're back out on the street. How does that look? 363 00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:28,500 S2: How does that feel? 25 years of age, you've lost 364 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:30,840 S2: a colleague. You've come as close as anyone can ever 365 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,020 S2: come to losing their life. That's got to give you 366 00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:38,010 S2: a different perspective. Things must change in your outlook. How 367 00:19:38,010 --> 00:19:39,000 S2: does how does that work? 368 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:44,940 S3: It definitely matured me overnight. Yeah. And I suppose just 369 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:49,740 S3: my awareness of everything around me supercharged, you know, because 370 00:19:49,740 --> 00:19:53,310 S3: you do get complacent. You do get comfortable in environments, 371 00:19:53,310 --> 00:19:57,899 S3: and you're probably not overlaying the amount of, um, potential 372 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,270 S3: threat that you're going to every single time you go 373 00:20:00,270 --> 00:20:03,330 S3: to a job. Yeah. It's just like, um, now I'm 374 00:20:03,330 --> 00:20:07,350 S3: in uniform, and I know that the most innocuous job 375 00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:09,720 S3: can go so badly. 376 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:28,260 S2: Ten years down the track, you take your career in 377 00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:31,050 S2: a in a slightly different direction. You step across and 378 00:20:31,050 --> 00:20:34,260 S2: join the Australian Federal Police in a very high level, 379 00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:39,780 S2: highly trained environment. And that led to deployment in, amongst 380 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:43,889 S2: other places, the Solomon Islands. Can you just give us 381 00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:48,119 S2: some background to that transition to the AFP and the 382 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:49,290 S2: path that that took you on? 383 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,750 S3: Yeah, that's a job on the brush over quickly. But 384 00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:54,990 S3: the you know, so after the, you know, the stabbing, 385 00:20:54,990 --> 00:20:59,430 S3: you know, if you fast forwarding I'd been selected, you know, 386 00:20:59,430 --> 00:21:04,199 S3: done the selection program and trained up and operational uh 387 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,890 S3: member of the New South Wales Police tactical operations unit 388 00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:11,910 S3: and I was one of their branches, explosive, very trained 389 00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:15,630 S3: and a sniper in there. And, um, there was an 390 00:21:15,630 --> 00:21:21,030 S3: opportunity to apply the same type of, um, tactical policing 391 00:21:21,630 --> 00:21:25,139 S3: in a federal context with the federal police, with some 392 00:21:25,140 --> 00:21:29,010 S3: deploy ability involved. So, you know, they wanted a TAC team, 393 00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:32,820 S3: they could do domestic, um, whether it was counter-terrorism or 394 00:21:32,820 --> 00:21:36,930 S3: serious crime, you know, serious organised crime and then also 395 00:21:37,109 --> 00:21:42,300 S3: used as an asset for Australian government for overseas, whether it's, um, 396 00:21:42,660 --> 00:21:47,730 S3: you know, a stabilisation in Timor or, um, Solomon Islands 397 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:53,639 S3: or whatever the role was. So referencing Solomon's, um, my 398 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,880 S3: role in that operational response group, it was called at 399 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,840 S3: the time, it's now the Sri. So basically the federal 400 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,310 S3: TAC teams, myself and other guy ran their sniper capability. 401 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,350 S3: Solomon Islands was um, part of the the Ramsi mission 402 00:22:10,350 --> 00:22:14,010 S3: over there. So it was a stabilisation mission after the 403 00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:17,790 S3: military had got it to a point where it's reasonably 404 00:22:17,790 --> 00:22:21,000 S3: stable there. Then they transitioned over to a law enforcement 405 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,440 S3: led stabilisation program, which is actually lauded by a lot 406 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,490 S3: of overseas governments going what Australia did in that context 407 00:22:29,490 --> 00:22:32,129 S3: was actually very unique and very successful. 408 00:22:32,850 --> 00:22:35,880 S2: And any of those deployments over that time that that 409 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,340 S2: come to mind, any anyone that can give us a 410 00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:41,790 S2: bit of a spotlight on. Yeah, what you were doing there. 411 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,180 S3: You know, obviously it's a very unique environment to, um, 412 00:22:46,180 --> 00:22:50,200 S3: you're talking proper jungle. You know, it's the most likely 413 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,659 S3: place on the planet. You're going to get malaria out 414 00:22:52,660 --> 00:22:57,310 S3: of anywhere on Earth. Solomon Islands is number one. There's crocodiles. There's, um, 415 00:22:57,310 --> 00:23:02,830 S3: ex militia. We had a particular militia individual. And you've 416 00:23:02,830 --> 00:23:05,290 S3: got to understand some of these. The Civil War they'd had, 417 00:23:05,290 --> 00:23:09,489 S3: they're now over. So they weren't militia anymore. They were 418 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:12,760 S3: just militia. So we had our like our top ten 419 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,930 S3: that we were just sort of systematically hunting down and arresting. 420 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:19,960 S3: And there's a there's another layer of complexity when you're 421 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,380 S3: hunting down people who are armed overseas in the jungle, 422 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:26,410 S3: you know, if we killed them, that's a deemed a failure. 423 00:23:26,410 --> 00:23:31,660 S3: If anyone, anyone, offender included, is harmed or killed. So 424 00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:37,930 S3: with some information to come in for that particular militia individual, 425 00:23:38,290 --> 00:23:41,740 S3: it actually come from a couple of our sources. And 426 00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:46,480 S3: there reasoning was because they were terrorizing their village areas. 427 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,790 S3: I don't think that's sort of naturally inclined to dob 428 00:23:48,790 --> 00:23:52,180 S3: on someone, but it was like, actually, we need this 429 00:23:52,180 --> 00:23:57,040 S3: guy away from our kids and and our family environments. So, 430 00:23:57,310 --> 00:24:00,010 S3: you know, we met with some guys, made sure that 431 00:24:00,010 --> 00:24:02,650 S3: the information that they were giving us was credible, and 432 00:24:02,650 --> 00:24:04,720 S3: then put together a mission plan that you would back 433 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,070 S3: here in, in Australia, likely from a in that smack format. Um, 434 00:24:09,070 --> 00:24:13,300 S3: so very carefully planned out, you know, missions requirements and 435 00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:18,940 S3: who was doing what. We were at um, JBR in Guadalcanal. 436 00:24:18,940 --> 00:24:21,670 S3: We were going to motor five hours down the coast 437 00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:27,100 S3: stage 2 or 3km offshore, and then covertly insert 1:00 438 00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:32,470 S3: in the morning using, um, rubber inflatable boats. The sources, 439 00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:34,720 S3: you know, that were going to be in situ. I'd 440 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,280 S3: given them some, um, like er asylum sticks and given 441 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,590 S3: them some direction. Say, I want you to put it like, 442 00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:44,770 S3: you know, this many steps apart, 20m apart. And I 443 00:24:44,770 --> 00:24:47,200 S3: want you to hang it up, you know, at least 444 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,210 S3: you know. So six, eight feet in the air off 445 00:24:49,210 --> 00:24:51,790 S3: one of the trees. So when we're coming in, we're 446 00:24:51,790 --> 00:24:55,000 S3: going to have reasonably pinpointed where we want to meet you. 447 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,969 S3: But that's our visual recognition because just in case it 448 00:24:57,970 --> 00:25:01,390 S3: changes due to some sort of environmental, um, and. 449 00:25:01,390 --> 00:25:05,409 S2: What you're talking about is, is these, um, sign points, 450 00:25:05,410 --> 00:25:07,780 S2: if you will, that can only be picked up with not, 451 00:25:07,869 --> 00:25:10,720 S2: not vision goggles. So but and you've got some folks, 452 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,260 S2: insiders in there that are almost guiding you into where 453 00:25:14,260 --> 00:25:15,130 S2: you need to be. 454 00:25:15,130 --> 00:25:17,440 S3: Yeah. And those locals did a great job, to be 455 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,510 S3: honest with you. Some of the the locals would walk 456 00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:21,129 S3: in with you at nighttime. Are you going, how is 457 00:25:21,130 --> 00:25:24,700 S3: this guy doing what he's doing? Like I'm struggling. It's 458 00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:29,290 S3: stinking hot. And, um, I'm using the latest, you know, 459 00:25:29,290 --> 00:25:33,159 S3: $30,000 MG systems. And I'm looking at this guy, and 460 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,710 S3: he's walking with no shoes on, and he's doing exactly 461 00:25:35,710 --> 00:25:38,980 S3: the same job. Yeah. I was like, going, you know, 462 00:25:38,980 --> 00:25:41,050 S3: we might think we're cool, but that guy's a little 463 00:25:41,050 --> 00:25:43,330 S3: bit cooler, you know? Anyway, because we've got to be 464 00:25:43,330 --> 00:25:46,870 S3: careful too, because the, um, as you'd expect, having some 465 00:25:46,869 --> 00:25:49,780 S3: foreign team roll into your village, it's not going to 466 00:25:49,780 --> 00:25:52,990 S3: be always, um, met with open arms, depending on where 467 00:25:52,990 --> 00:25:56,920 S3: it was in the Solomon Islands. All in chain. So 468 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,530 S3: we need to do what we we do as quickly 469 00:25:59,530 --> 00:26:02,290 S3: and efficiently and safely for everyone as we can. But 470 00:26:02,290 --> 00:26:05,170 S3: we can't muck around either because, you know, then you 471 00:26:05,170 --> 00:26:08,710 S3: sort of introduce a whole different level of complexity. In 472 00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:13,150 S3: this occasion, our quarry had an attempt to flee, but 473 00:26:13,150 --> 00:26:15,010 S3: the measures we'd put in place, he was sort of 474 00:26:15,010 --> 00:26:19,090 S3: wrapped up pretty quickly and without any, um, significant injury. 475 00:26:19,420 --> 00:26:21,760 S2: And then what happens? You take him back to Honiara 476 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,680 S2: or something like that, and it's. And he's handed over 477 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:24,850 S2: to local police. Yeah. 478 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,680 S3: I mean, we're still in the middle of nowhere. So 479 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,379 S3: it's like, yeah. Quick apologies to the, the chief of 480 00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:32,350 S3: that village. So, you know, we're doing this for your 481 00:26:32,350 --> 00:26:35,170 S3: benefit just as much as the rest of the country. 482 00:26:35,260 --> 00:26:37,780 S3: And then we just got out of there as quick 483 00:26:37,780 --> 00:26:40,330 S3: as we can as soon as we got to our shoreline, 484 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,780 S3: you know, vessel came in because obviously it didn't have 485 00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:46,810 S3: to be covert anymore. Pick him up, and then, you know, 486 00:26:46,810 --> 00:26:51,200 S3: they'd take him back to. Guadalcanal, Roosevelt Prison. And then 487 00:26:51,350 --> 00:26:53,600 S3: we just, you know, make sure we got all our 488 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,870 S3: kit and get on their rubber. Yeah. Rubber inflatables. Get 489 00:26:56,869 --> 00:26:57,890 S3: on the boat. Go back. 490 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,410 S2: Might there be a lot of people listening, myself included, 491 00:27:00,410 --> 00:27:03,590 S2: who would be almost surprised to hear, you know, the 492 00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:07,040 S2: federal police actually play? That's like a paramilitary type of 493 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,070 S2: an operation. And, um, people do have an awareness of 494 00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:12,200 S2: peacekeeping groups that have dropped into as they have been 495 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,750 S2: into Vanuatu and, you know, Solomons over the years. But 496 00:27:14,750 --> 00:27:18,109 S2: that's sort of next level. And that's, as you said before, 497 00:27:18,109 --> 00:27:21,770 S2: that's one of countless operations that you're involved in of 498 00:27:21,770 --> 00:27:25,340 S2: a similar nature. Some probably went as well, some went 499 00:27:25,340 --> 00:27:28,190 S2: a bit pear shaped. And, you know, goodness me, what 500 00:27:28,190 --> 00:27:29,780 S2: a what a what a period of your life that 501 00:27:29,780 --> 00:27:30,770 S2: must have been. Yeah. 502 00:27:30,770 --> 00:27:33,230 S3: It's like I said, it's very unique for law enforcement 503 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,660 S3: at you know, the AFP does a really good job 504 00:27:35,660 --> 00:27:40,820 S3: at actually um, I suppose covering off on those requirements. 505 00:27:40,820 --> 00:27:43,760 S3: But they, they don't chest beat about it. Uh, it's 506 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,490 S3: very low key and there's good reason for that. You know, 507 00:27:46,490 --> 00:27:48,740 S3: we can talk about it now. It's it's quite historic. 508 00:27:48,740 --> 00:27:51,320 S3: They just work in the background and they get the results. 509 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,950 S3: But like I pinch myself all the time going, you know, 510 00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:58,879 S3: it's such a steep requirement on on us as police, 511 00:27:59,150 --> 00:28:01,790 S3: you know, from um, even even the tactical work we're 512 00:28:01,790 --> 00:28:04,189 S3: doing here in Australia. It's like another level above that. 513 00:28:04,190 --> 00:28:04,580 S3: Yeah for. 514 00:28:04,580 --> 00:28:05,090 S5: Sure. 515 00:28:05,090 --> 00:28:08,780 S2: It's sort of up there almost with sort of SAS 516 00:28:08,780 --> 00:28:12,020 S2: specialist services type of deployments for the military, isn't it. 517 00:28:12,020 --> 00:28:14,270 S2: It's not. It's not too far removed from some of 518 00:28:14,270 --> 00:28:14,870 S2: that gear. 519 00:28:14,869 --> 00:28:19,399 S3: Definitely the application of methodology and tactics. Um, obviously it 520 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,910 S3: is different. Of course, no one's no one's ever going 521 00:28:22,910 --> 00:28:26,419 S3: to say any different, but the level of complexity you're 522 00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:30,199 S3: using similar tradecraft. But, you know, there's some of the 523 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,970 S3: expectations on us from a results perspective and strategic and, 524 00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:37,010 S3: you know, very, very different. 525 00:28:37,550 --> 00:28:40,850 S2: Mike, I know guys that have done peacekeeping deployments, you know, 526 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,370 S2: Zealand police like Australian police into Vanuatu and things like that. 527 00:28:43,370 --> 00:28:46,400 S2: But it's mate, nothing like that. That's next. That's next level. 528 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,430 S2: And like you say it's it's covert for a reason. 529 00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:56,300 S2: It's uh yeah. Yeah. So Jason, after close to ten years, 530 00:28:56,300 --> 00:28:59,840 S2: New South Wales Police and you were deployed in a 531 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,250 S2: range of different high level units. You had a short 532 00:29:04,250 --> 00:29:08,690 S2: time away from the job overseas, came back into New 533 00:29:08,690 --> 00:29:11,660 S2: South Wales policing. As is often the case, the punishment, 534 00:29:11,660 --> 00:29:13,640 S2: of course, for going away as you come back into 535 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,940 S2: general duties, they. Yeah, they like to remind you that, well, 536 00:29:16,940 --> 00:29:18,920 S2: you know, you've had to step away and you've got 537 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,060 S2: to pay your penance, don't you. 538 00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:25,370 S3: Yeah, yeah. It's so, um, I resigned for an opportunity 539 00:29:25,370 --> 00:29:29,420 S3: working in Iraq, and I was comfier. I'd sort of 540 00:29:29,540 --> 00:29:32,690 S3: ticked all the boxes with that activity. I actually rejoined 541 00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:36,890 S3: New South Wales. It's like a two week rejoin program 542 00:29:37,130 --> 00:29:39,500 S3: in New South Wales, as you were saying. And yeah, 543 00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:43,160 S3: I found myself, um, in a temporary sort of holding 544 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,180 S3: pattern in general duties, you know, five minutes from home 545 00:29:47,180 --> 00:29:50,660 S3: on the Central Coast. And, um, to be honest with you, 546 00:29:50,660 --> 00:29:53,630 S3: as much as I was not a happy camper when 547 00:29:53,630 --> 00:29:55,190 S3: I found out that was what I was going to 548 00:29:55,190 --> 00:29:57,920 S3: be doing for six months, maybe it was fantastic because I, 549 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,750 S3: you know, back in uniform, that's a core policing sort of, 550 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,940 S3: you know, provision. Yeah. You know, so you're back at 551 00:30:04,940 --> 00:30:08,240 S3: your ground roots. But I'm back now and I've got kids. 552 00:30:08,420 --> 00:30:11,270 S3: So my whole perspective on everything has changed. And obviously 553 00:30:11,270 --> 00:30:14,240 S3: I've got a lot more experience because I've done my 554 00:30:14,690 --> 00:30:17,030 S3: tactical work and I'd been just come back from a 555 00:30:17,030 --> 00:30:19,760 S3: war zone. So, um, yeah, it was a it was 556 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,670 S3: a really good, um, I really enjoyed it. 557 00:30:22,910 --> 00:30:25,940 S2: That's interesting, isn't it? Because like you say initially when 558 00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:27,890 S2: you're told, oh, yeah, welcome back and welcome again, but 559 00:30:27,890 --> 00:30:30,110 S2: you're going to be on general duties and it's a 560 00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:32,180 S2: bit of a comedown from where you've been. It's almost 561 00:30:32,180 --> 00:30:35,990 S2: a circling back to sort of 1997, 98. But but 562 00:30:35,990 --> 00:30:38,330 S2: the actual once you got in amongst that, you're going, 563 00:30:38,330 --> 00:30:40,610 S2: actually this is, this is why I joined in the 564 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,980 S2: this is sort of what it's all about. 565 00:30:42,980 --> 00:30:45,680 S3: And also coming back from a war zone, there was 566 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,610 S3: a level of, um, like peace, you know, being, you know, 567 00:30:49,610 --> 00:30:52,730 S3: even in the frenetic world of general duties, which it 568 00:30:52,730 --> 00:30:57,080 S3: is out of control. This is nice and calm. So yeah, 569 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,360 S3: I really enjoyed it and I enjoyed coming in with 570 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,170 S3: a renewed passion for it. Yes, and perspective. And I 571 00:31:03,170 --> 00:31:04,520 S3: was very grateful for being there. 572 00:31:04,820 --> 00:31:08,180 S2: Now, interestingly, just on that, as you've said, you've come 573 00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:11,270 S2: back from, you know, one of the highest profile war 574 00:31:11,270 --> 00:31:13,700 S2: zones in the world, absolute carnage. You've come back into 575 00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:19,720 S2: general duties and there's a sort of a calming feeling there. Then, tragically, 576 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,480 S2: you're sent to a job. You know, general duties, we know. 577 00:31:22,510 --> 00:31:25,120 S2: You just never know what's going to come through the radio, 578 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,460 S2: you know? And things can be going along. You're there, 579 00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:30,160 S2: you're working, and then suddenly you attend a job. And 580 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,740 S2: it's a job that that can stay with you for 581 00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:34,870 S2: all the wrong reasons for the rest of your life. 582 00:31:34,870 --> 00:31:37,210 S2: And I think you might have attended one of those. 583 00:31:38,050 --> 00:31:41,560 S3: I was working on a Saturday with one of my partners, 584 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,600 S3: female partner, and, um, there was a job came on, uh, 585 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:53,110 S3: F3 freeway down near Hawkesbury of a motor vehicle accident. So, yeah, 586 00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:55,150 S3: we copied that and made our way there. 587 00:31:55,150 --> 00:31:56,530 S2: From pretty rough weather. 588 00:31:56,830 --> 00:32:01,060 S3: A really localized storm cell went through really quickly, so 589 00:32:01,060 --> 00:32:03,580 S3: by the time we got there, it was sun's out. Everything's, 590 00:32:03,580 --> 00:32:06,340 S3: you know, quite wet. And there was a lot of 591 00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:08,860 S3: water on the side of the freeway. And what had 592 00:32:08,860 --> 00:32:12,880 S3: happened is a female driver, 29 years of age, coming 593 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,480 S3: down the freeway and just hit, aquaplaning her vehicle, and 594 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,140 S3: it shot through the guardrail, which is unusual. And it's 595 00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:23,890 S3: quite a steep, heavily pretty dense, decent sized trees. So 596 00:32:23,890 --> 00:32:26,440 S3: the car's bounced its way down. So it's going to 597 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,390 S3: be quite a serious accident. Um, I parked up near 598 00:32:31,390 --> 00:32:35,470 S3: where the, um, where obviously her vehicles pushed through the 599 00:32:35,470 --> 00:32:38,800 S3: barrier and left my partner up there with the radio 600 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,980 S3: and everything and just said, listen, when everyone starts turning up, 601 00:32:42,250 --> 00:32:44,860 S3: you know, you're up here. So I climbed down because 602 00:32:44,860 --> 00:32:48,280 S3: it was really arduous getting through all the the bush. And, um, 603 00:32:48,490 --> 00:32:51,220 S3: I get to the car and the paramedics are sort 604 00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:53,410 S3: of trying to work. There's one paramedic there, and he's 605 00:32:53,410 --> 00:32:56,200 S3: trying to work out how to get her out of 606 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,050 S3: the car. And so he goes, just come here, hold 607 00:32:59,050 --> 00:33:01,720 S3: her hand. And he went around the other side. And 608 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,260 S3: he was, you know, just working on and ensuring that 609 00:33:05,260 --> 00:33:07,600 S3: the vehicle because it was jammed between two trees, that 610 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,600 S3: it wasn't just going to actually let go. And then 611 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,780 S3: him and I would get injured as well anyway. So 612 00:33:13,780 --> 00:33:16,300 S3: I'm holding her hand and she's sort of just like, um, 613 00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:21,340 S3: you know, taking really shallow, fast breathing, you know, obviously 614 00:33:21,340 --> 00:33:26,740 S3: very seriously injured internally, really pretty, you know, just like 615 00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:29,770 S3: everything about her looked untouched, you know, um, so I'm 616 00:33:29,770 --> 00:33:32,620 S3: holding her hand and just trying to comfort her. And 617 00:33:32,620 --> 00:33:35,080 S3: it's like, um, it's a that's a lot. There's a 618 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,570 S3: gravity in that, you know, and there's a lot of 619 00:33:37,570 --> 00:33:42,550 S3: responsibility in that where you're holding someone's hand. And basically 620 00:33:42,550 --> 00:33:46,810 S3: she took a last breath and I. So as soon 621 00:33:46,810 --> 00:33:50,620 S3: as soon as she passed away, um, I've sort of 622 00:33:50,620 --> 00:33:54,130 S3: deferred to the paramedic. Hey, do we need to be doing, 623 00:33:54,250 --> 00:33:57,280 S3: you know, compressions? And you know what? What did he 624 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,370 S3: want me to do? And he goes, no, no, like, mate, 625 00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:05,710 S3: she's gone. And because he'd already made some assessments and obviously, um, 626 00:34:05,710 --> 00:34:10,270 S3: you know, he was. He was quite, um, sure of 627 00:34:10,270 --> 00:34:13,390 S3: how bad you know, she was. And, you know, I 628 00:34:13,390 --> 00:34:16,180 S3: don't go into their world. So he came over and 629 00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:20,170 S3: we you did another assessment, and he goes, no matches. 630 00:34:20,170 --> 00:34:22,600 S3: Like there's absolutely nothing we can do. Plus she like 631 00:34:22,870 --> 00:34:25,720 S3: she was sort of jammed in. So it's not as 632 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,210 S3: if we could pull her out and do CPR easily. Um. 633 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,540 S3: The anyway. So yeah, she passed away and you know, 634 00:34:32,540 --> 00:34:35,630 S3: so yesterday morning where I was like half an hour earlier, 635 00:34:35,630 --> 00:34:37,610 S3: I was just looking forward to going down and around 636 00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:40,430 S3: local cafe to get a coffee and fly the, the 637 00:34:40,850 --> 00:34:43,969 S3: New South Wales Police flag around and um, then you 638 00:34:43,969 --> 00:34:46,460 S3: hear and he and then he was like, wow. And 639 00:34:46,580 --> 00:34:48,589 S3: anyway I said to him, I'm going to get back 640 00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:51,080 S3: up to the freeway. And we're just, you know, I'd 641 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,290 S3: have to make a few calls, crash investigation. And, um, 642 00:34:54,290 --> 00:34:57,290 S3: and then we've got to obviously be able to recover 643 00:34:57,290 --> 00:35:00,480 S3: everything as well. And her. And I started walking up. 644 00:35:00,540 --> 00:35:02,940 S3: I got about halfway up between where this car was 645 00:35:02,940 --> 00:35:05,549 S3: and the road, and you can imagine I literally grab 646 00:35:05,550 --> 00:35:08,040 S3: and hold of things to climb, and I hear a 647 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,370 S3: phone ring in the middle of the bush. And I 648 00:35:11,370 --> 00:35:14,490 S3: knew straight away. It's obviously a phone. You know, it's 649 00:35:14,670 --> 00:35:18,390 S3: popped out of her car when it's been banging. Anyway, um, 650 00:35:18,390 --> 00:35:20,910 S3: it rang long enough for me to actually find it, 651 00:35:20,910 --> 00:35:23,100 S3: and I picked it up, and then obviously, I'm not 652 00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:25,290 S3: going to answer it, because then I've got to, you know, 653 00:35:25,290 --> 00:35:27,509 S3: someone's going to say, well, why is this dude, you know, 654 00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:31,800 S3: answering her phone? So I let it ring out. But 655 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,380 S3: then and then the message bank pops up on it 656 00:35:34,380 --> 00:35:37,140 S3: straight away and it wasn't locked. You know, I just 657 00:35:37,140 --> 00:35:41,040 S3: pressed play and then made the final error of putting 658 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,219 S3: it up and listening to it. And then I hear 659 00:35:44,219 --> 00:35:47,640 S3: this message come into the phone from her eight year 660 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,290 S3: old son, who's. She'd been away for a weekend with 661 00:35:52,290 --> 00:35:55,410 S3: some girlfriends, and obviously she was on her way home, 662 00:35:55,650 --> 00:35:59,820 S3: so he rang her and basically the message was, hey mummy, 663 00:36:00,180 --> 00:36:03,210 S3: I cannot wait to see you. I've missed you so much. 664 00:36:03,210 --> 00:36:06,029 S3: And then we're going to the movies tonight. And then 665 00:36:06,510 --> 00:36:12,120 S3: basically every little trigger you could imagine like that would 666 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,850 S3: really cut you to the bone. This eight year old 667 00:36:14,850 --> 00:36:17,310 S3: kid said it in this message, and I'm standing there 668 00:36:17,310 --> 00:36:20,459 S3: in the middle of the bush, and then the message ends, 669 00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:22,979 S3: and I'm just standing there going, and it literally just 670 00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:27,270 S3: floored me. Like it literally just sucked every bit of. 671 00:36:27,930 --> 00:36:30,780 S3: Like air out of my lungs. And even now, like, 672 00:36:30,780 --> 00:36:35,370 S3: I can still, um. Actually. Take myself back to that emotion. 673 00:36:35,850 --> 00:36:39,660 S3: So I'm standing there just going. What? And I'll listen 674 00:36:39,660 --> 00:36:42,210 S3: to that message. And then, um, I walk up to 675 00:36:42,210 --> 00:36:46,080 S3: the roadway and, and my partner comes over and she goes, 676 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,880 S3: are you okay? Because I was just like, you know, 677 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,770 S3: just in my own little world for a second. And 678 00:36:49,770 --> 00:36:52,469 S3: then I just handed her the phone and pressed the 679 00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:56,520 S3: press the message. Unfortunately, I had to share the pie. 680 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,190 S3: And I suppose, anyway, next thing I know, she's in tears. 681 00:36:59,190 --> 00:37:02,190 S3: She's in the car. And, um, because, you know, I'd explained, 682 00:37:02,190 --> 00:37:04,890 S3: you know, that, um, his mum has just passed away. 683 00:37:04,890 --> 00:37:09,940 S3: I was holding her hand. Um, so. Yeah. Um. You know, 684 00:37:09,940 --> 00:37:13,810 S3: I've been involved and seen so many things over the 685 00:37:13,810 --> 00:37:16,810 S3: years and so much tragedy and just like shocking stuff. 686 00:37:16,810 --> 00:37:19,270 S3: But it's funny, the ones that really get under your skin, 687 00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:23,460 S3: that one got under my skin because it was like, um. Just, 688 00:37:23,610 --> 00:37:25,650 S3: you know, I was walking up and I was processing 689 00:37:25,650 --> 00:37:28,350 S3: the fact and the gravity of just holding someone's hand 690 00:37:28,350 --> 00:37:31,200 S3: with their last breaths. And, you know, it's just been, 691 00:37:31,590 --> 00:37:33,810 S3: you know, talking to us softly and saying, you're going 692 00:37:33,810 --> 00:37:36,569 S3: to be okay. The same things that people had said 693 00:37:36,570 --> 00:37:39,480 S3: to me, you know, ten years earlier or 11 years earlier, 694 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,180 S3: you know, where I'm laying on the street just to 695 00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:47,850 S3: have the. The gravity of it, reinforced by that that 696 00:37:47,850 --> 00:37:52,350 S3: woman's child. Um, and because of now I've got I'm 697 00:37:52,350 --> 00:37:55,710 S3: placing I'm doing, um, uniform policing and I've got kids 698 00:37:55,710 --> 00:38:00,000 S3: of my own. The reality of the of that area 699 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,600 S3: in police work just like, hit me like a, like 700 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,580 S3: a brick to the side of the head. So, um, 701 00:38:05,580 --> 00:38:09,540 S3: you know, just really, um, just come from left field 702 00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:12,930 S3: and it doesn't allow you to set up some of 703 00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:16,439 S3: those bits of armor that you normally get to start 704 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,620 S3: placing in front of you mentally, just like straight through 705 00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:21,930 S3: to the keeper and, you know, touches you. 706 00:38:22,170 --> 00:38:25,950 S2: There's a real rawness about it, isn't there? And it's Jason. 707 00:38:25,950 --> 00:38:28,379 S2: It's I just, you know, the honesty in which you're 708 00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:32,820 S2: speaking about this because like you said, you know, coppers 709 00:38:32,820 --> 00:38:34,680 S2: can sit around and you can tell all these war 710 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,410 S2: stories and all these things that that people who haven't 711 00:38:37,410 --> 00:38:40,410 S2: been the job, people haven't experienced it, that almost disbelieving. 712 00:38:40,410 --> 00:38:43,800 S2: And then it's something like that and then it's tragedy. 713 00:38:43,830 --> 00:38:46,860 S2: It's just such a simple thing. It's it's, um, you know, 714 00:38:46,860 --> 00:38:49,080 S2: you're holding a woman's hand at the time of her death, 715 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,050 S2: but then the tipping point when the little bloke leaves 716 00:38:52,050 --> 00:38:54,719 S2: the message on mum's phone and it's like you say, 717 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,560 S2: it's all that stuff, and maybe, maybe for you to Jason, 718 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,790 S2: there's that, uh, there's an unmistakable connection back to when 719 00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:05,880 S2: you yourself were on the other side, almost, of that situation. 720 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,220 S2: You know, it's it's it's all comes in together, doesn't it. 721 00:39:08,219 --> 00:39:08,969 S6: Yeah, yeah. 722 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,850 S3: And if you, if there's any silver lining to it, 723 00:39:11,850 --> 00:39:16,960 S3: it's just the, um. Exposure to that level of tragedy 724 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,840 S3: and grief. The, um, you know, you wouldn't wish it 725 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,900 S3: upon anyone, but the one thing that I do draw 726 00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:26,500 S3: from it, it's just the how, you know, precious and 727 00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:30,700 S3: fleeting life can be. Like I said it, you. There's 728 00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:33,730 S3: a couple of pathways you can go after. You know, 729 00:39:33,730 --> 00:39:35,980 S3: you can sort of suck on your thumb and sit 730 00:39:35,980 --> 00:39:38,920 S3: in the corner. Not that not the best analogy, but 731 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,160 S3: I know what you mean. You know, or you can, um, 732 00:39:42,610 --> 00:39:44,740 S3: you know, learn from it as much as best you 733 00:39:44,739 --> 00:39:49,420 S3: can and, you know, try to pull some positive from it. 734 00:39:49,420 --> 00:39:52,480 S3: And I suppose for me it's just like, you know, 735 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:59,739 S3: maintaining my empathy. Whilst wearing a uniform. Being grateful all 736 00:39:59,739 --> 00:40:04,700 S3: the time because you're breathing. And, um, you know, just 737 00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:08,390 S3: having a positive pathways to how you try to process it. Yeah. 738 00:40:09,870 --> 00:40:12,420 S2: I just want to thank you so much. This has been, um. 739 00:40:12,420 --> 00:40:16,950 S2: Goodness me. I've just such enjoyed both meeting you and 740 00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:19,530 S2: hearing some of your experiences, and and I just know 741 00:40:19,530 --> 00:40:21,930 S2: that so many that will listen to this will take 742 00:40:21,930 --> 00:40:25,380 S2: so much from it. It's such a storied career, but 743 00:40:25,380 --> 00:40:27,990 S2: such a tragic start to it and all of that. 744 00:40:27,989 --> 00:40:30,540 S2: But you know, for your honesty and opening up about that, Jason, 745 00:40:30,540 --> 00:40:33,569 S2: I really thank you for that. Um, I've read through 746 00:40:33,570 --> 00:40:35,280 S2: so much of the stuff that you've done and the 747 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,799 S2: different environments that you've worked in, and we could do 748 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,080 S2: half a dozen of these and still only touch on 749 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,190 S2: the surface. And I say that because for you to 750 00:40:44,190 --> 00:40:47,370 S2: have included that story about that tragic event with that 751 00:40:47,370 --> 00:40:49,560 S2: woman passing in the driving, it just it just sort 752 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,040 S2: of shows to me the person that you are because 753 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,310 S2: you've come back to the humanity of what it is that, um, 754 00:40:56,850 --> 00:41:00,060 S2: police officers do. And it's not it's not chest beating. It's, it's, it's. 755 00:41:00,060 --> 00:41:02,670 S2: And you said that yourself, you know, this was just 756 00:41:02,670 --> 00:41:05,070 S2: a job that you attended on a Saturday afternoon, a 757 00:41:05,070 --> 00:41:07,830 S2: Saturday morning. And yet it's one of those ones for 758 00:41:07,830 --> 00:41:10,169 S2: all these different reasons that will stay with you for 759 00:41:10,170 --> 00:41:13,110 S2: the rest of your life. And, uh, Jason, just thank 760 00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:15,480 S2: you so much for coming and thanks for your honesty 761 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,160 S2: and thanks for sharing this with us. 762 00:41:17,190 --> 00:41:19,950 S3: Thank you very much for having me. And, um, there's 763 00:41:19,950 --> 00:41:22,590 S3: a little bit of trauma in there, of course, but, um, 764 00:41:23,550 --> 00:41:25,710 S3: you know, for any of the listeners, especially if there's 765 00:41:25,710 --> 00:41:29,549 S3: anyone still within law enforcement, it's like, um, you know, 766 00:41:29,550 --> 00:41:32,279 S3: if the only advice I would give is remember why 767 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,490 S3: you joined the police, you just be grateful all the 768 00:41:35,489 --> 00:41:39,900 S3: time of, I suppose, the opportunity you have to help 769 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:42,570 S3: other people and never lose sight of that because it's 770 00:41:42,570 --> 00:41:47,700 S3: easy to maintain empathy, but maintain that empathy for yourself 771 00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:50,130 S3: as well. If you don't have empathy for yourself, yeah, 772 00:41:50,130 --> 00:41:52,200 S3: it's going to be very hard to do so for others. 773 00:41:52,350 --> 00:41:54,180 S3: So yeah, thank you so much for having me and 774 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:55,469 S3: I appreciate your time. 775 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,770 S2: Crime insiders. Detectives is a listener. Original production. It's hosted 776 00:42:04,770 --> 00:42:09,299 S2: by me, Brent Sanders, produced by Ed Gordon and sound 777 00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:11,879 S2: designed and imaged by Link Kelly.