S1: Listener.
S2: Seeqpod acknowledges the traditional owners and custodians of the land
S2: in which we are recording this podcast. The Yeolekar Woollen
S2: Clan of the Boomerang, who are a part of the
S2: Kulin nation. We pay our respects to our elders, past
S2: and present, and extend our respect to Aboriginal and Torres
S2: Strait Islander peoples today.
S3: Welcome to the Kick Pod, a.
S2: Dam with your besties on the stuff that matters.
S4: One. Two.
UU: Three. Four. One. Two. Three. Four.
S5: Hello, hello.
S2: Today team is a very, very good episode. You are
S2: going to want to stay tuned. I mean, obviously if
S2: you're already listening, it's likely you're here because you are
S2: ready to buckle in for this episode. Today we have
S2: got on the wonderful Janie Martino. Now, you might have
S2: heard Janie on the podcast before she came and spoke
S2: on the do I Want Kids mini series on the
S2: episode where we spoke about Korea. And then she also
S2: came and did a double episode. It was last year
S2: now because we were in 2025 where we spoke about
S2: navigating difficult conversations, not making assumptions and not taking things personally.
S2: So outside of being a very regular podcast guest, Janie
S2: actually does a lot of things she does. This is
S2: not really her main thing. So Janie is the co-founder
S2: of Smiling Mine and is also a amazing coach. Janie
S2: has a business called Kintsugi Way and she is also
S2: Steph and my personal coach as well. She just has
S2: so much wisdom and knowledge, which is why we're so
S2: excited about this. And she has also just published two books.
S2: So for anyone that has listened to episodes with Janie
S2: and wants to learn more. Work with her in some way.
S2: These books are a really, really good way to do that.
S2: The first one is called The Little Book of Keshiki.
S2: I think that's how you say it, which is rituals.
S2: And then the second one is the little Book of Goru,
S2: which is goals.
S3: And they're so good. And I saw that you and
S3: Dalton got started on them at the start of the year,
S3: and I ordered them right before the break. And so
S3: I quickly messaged her once I ordered it and I
S3: was like, I'm about to leave for the river. Maybe
S3: don't post it yet, otherwise it'll be sitting at my
S3: house for ages. Um, but basically the second I got home,
S3: I was like, okay, I'd like to come pick them
S3: up now because I was really excited to look at
S3: them and they're so amazing. I feel like nearly every
S3: year I've bought myself a new kind of daily journal
S3: or Morning Journal or something to kind of practice, and
S3: whether or not it's my ADHD, I've never really been
S3: able to stick to them. Or if I do, it's
S3: kind of like, I'll do it for a week and
S3: then I'll drop off for like three months and then
S3: I'll get back into it or whatever.
S2: I think that's very common sometimes with people with journaling 100%.
S2: Especially this time of year. Yeah.
S3: Yeah, totally. But I think what I love about these
S3: kind of journals and stuff like that and this the
S3: one that I'm speaking about right now is the rituals one,
S3: the keshiki, um, where it's kind of like a daily
S3: check in Am and PM. I love when it's really prompted.
S3: Really simple. Do do love that. Um, and that's what
S3: this is. But there's also so much information prior, um,
S3: in both the goals and Rituals book. Um, that really
S3: kind of sets you up for then what the book entails.
S3: So highly recommend both of them. They are incredible. I
S3: actually got a few DMs when I posted about it, um, asking.
S3: And one person was like, oh my gosh, I recognized
S3: Janie's name! I'm so excited for this book because I
S3: loved her podcast. So if that's you and you're listening again,
S3: you are going to absolutely love this one again. Um,
S3: we are talking about careers basically, because at this time
S3: of year and we've spoken about this with, um, these
S3: episodes to, to start the year is you kind of
S3: reflect and decide, I suppose, on what you're doing this
S3: year when it comes to comes to relationships, big life
S3: things and career is a massive part of that. And
S3: whether or not you feel like you're in the right
S3: career and the right job, is it fulfilling you, etc.
S3: we cover a lot of that and working out your
S3: strengths within a role is this job serving me? Is
S3: the job. Is it something else? And I think because
S3: of Janie's incredible, what she referred to as a yellow
S3: brick road of a career, um, she's had a lot
S3: of experience in trying different things, finding what feels right,
S3: and then moving on when it's not right, and that
S3: being totally okay. So I think you're going to get
S3: so much out of it, I certainly did. Um, and
S3: that's all because the rest of it's cold. So I'm
S3: going to go now, but here's our chat with the
S3: wonderful Janie Martineau.
S6: Hi, Janie. Hi. How are you? Very good. It's so
S6: nice to have you back. I love being here.
S2: And our listeners, the cloud links. They love you. Did
S2: you know we call them cloud links? No. Just in
S2: case you're looking at me like. What are you talking about? Yeah.
S2: Our listeners are our cloud links, and they love your episodes.
S2: They were some of our most downloaded. I think one
S2: of them actually was our in the top three of
S2: the whole year.
S6: Oh my goodness. Wow. Very excited. So thank you for that. No.
S6: Well thank you. I've got to work with you. And
S6: there are things that we all want to talk about
S6: and work through. So I'm glad they're resonating.
S2: And today we have you on to speak all things career.
S2: We could not think of a better person to talk to.
S2: So thank you for joining us. Sure. Now at this
S2: time of the year, it's the start of January. People
S2: are starting to think about their job, and maybe they've
S2: just had a bit of a break and they're going
S2: back and they're possibly thinking about like, am I doing
S2: the right job for me? How do we navigate that?
S2: And I suppose, how do you know if you are
S2: in the right industry or company? I know that's a
S2: very big question to start.
S6: With, coming out punching. I like it, I like it. Look,
S6: I think the number one thing is how you feel
S6: when you're there and it's really about checking in and
S6: all the work I've done this year. You know, my
S6: number one motto that I want to go into 2025
S6: with is think less, feel more. Because I just think
S6: we're so busy, uh, being busy and doing that, we
S6: really forget. Even just at moments throughout the day to
S6: tune in and and really check in with how we're
S6: feeling in our bodies and in our lives. Uh, and
S6: are we really in our lives? Um, so that's the
S6: first question I'd be asking. Like, am I really in
S6: my career and in my work? And when I'm there,
S6: am I being present? And when I'm being present, how
S6: do I feel? Does it light me up and in
S6: the moments it doesn't? Why is that? Then the other
S6: important question I think to ask is, is the reason
S6: that I mightn't be feeling good to do with the
S6: work itself, or is it actually something more to do
S6: with me? Because I think one thing I've noticed throughout
S6: my career is I often push, I don't like this,
S6: this job, or I'm not. I'm not really into this client.
S6: And a lot of the time, actually, when I step back,
S6: there were things going on for me and I needed
S6: to grow or improve in an area that I was
S6: actually finding really challenging. And perhaps I was getting negative
S6: feedback and I was feeling pretty defensive and down about it. Um,
S6: so then that what was actually about me became about
S6: the job or the work? Um, so, you know, is
S6: there an opportunity to say, is there something going on
S6: for me that this gives me the chance to unpack
S6: and improve upon, which will only help me across multiple
S6: areas of my life? Um, and then the other thing
S6: I'd say is, is it about the actual work itself?
S6: Is it playing to my strengths? Um, you know, are
S6: there is are there components of it doesn't have to
S6: be everything, but are there components of it that I
S6: really love or is it about the workplace, the environment? Um,
S6: and could I unpack the work? Yes, I am playing
S6: to my strengths. I am doing what I enjoy, I'm
S6: just not enjoying the environment. So they're probably the three
S6: things I'd say. Is it me? Is it the work
S6: that I'm doing and the tasks and the time? Or
S6: is it the environment?
S2: I think that's so powerful. And when when you talk
S2: about how do I feel? I mean, obviously that's something
S2: that we've worked on. I've been so lucky to work
S2: with you a lot on that this year, but it's
S2: really hard to do so for people listening and maybe
S2: in the day to day there's parts of their roles
S2: like I think for a lot of us that we
S2: really enjoy and like kind of light us up. And
S2: then there's maybe the more admin or whatever it might
S2: be stuff that just does not like. Well, for me,
S2: admin stuff doesn't light me up. For some people it does.
S2: Everyone's different, of course, if people are maybe working on
S2: a project that isn't there. Their biggest strength or something
S2: that they love. But it's not a huge part of
S2: their role. And when they're doing that, they don't feel motivated.
S2: How do you kind of which is probably normal. How
S2: do you decipher between the maybe the stuff you don't
S2: like so much that's just a part of the job?
S2: Because then you get to do the big, exciting stuff
S2: and that feeling. Yeah.
S6: Um, I would say the best analogy I could give
S6: for that is relationships, love. Um, I mean, at some point,
S6: once you're going through dating and you become partners and
S6: you live together, you're going to have to use the
S6: same toilet. Yeah, you're going to have to do jobs
S6: you don't like. And there will even be parts of
S6: that person that perhaps aren't as exciting or engaging and
S6: may borderline border on frustrating. Um, but overall, you feel
S6: good when you're with that person and you love that person.
S6: And you understand that that's that's part of it. So
S6: I think that's what probably what I would say is
S6: that what is the weighting in, you know, how much
S6: of it is part of the job and part of,
S6: you know, moving forward and, and building on skills and
S6: foundational and what is it? You know, what part of
S6: it is just pervasive? I don't enjoy this, and I'm
S6: not actually using my capacity and using my potential. And
S6: I think, yeah, it's exactly the same as relationships, you know,
S6: am I being my best self in this relationship, even
S6: though we have good times and bad times? Um, overall,
S6: if I step back, what is actually going on here?
S6: So I think, yeah, that's the best way to look
S6: at it in my opinion. I think that's the perfect analogy.
S3: As as soon as you said that, I was like,
S3: that makes so much sense. Um, and so what about
S3: if someone's worked out that maybe it's not the job itself, however,
S3: they want to get to get more out of it
S3: because they're not 100% happy in the job, but they
S3: don't want to quit their job and try and find
S3: another company, or try and find another direction. They're still
S3: working through that. How can they get more out of
S3: their role or the best out of their role?
S6: Yeah, I think that's about actually realizing that there's a
S6: lot you can control. Um, you can control how you
S6: show up and the attitude and the level of dedication
S6: to what you're doing, even if you know, it's not
S6: the ultimate dream for you. And doing that allows you
S6: to then I think, focus on some other things, which
S6: is is there something else in this role or in
S6: this company that I could do or work towards while
S6: I'm working out what else I want to do or
S6: where I exactly want to go? And it might not
S6: have to be a big stretch, but is there something
S6: I could identify? And maybe it's not advertised, and maybe
S6: it's not exactly on the job description, but gives you
S6: an opportunity to grow your skills or try something new,
S6: but also gives you an opportunity to do something great
S6: for the company and your manager, or the person you
S6: know and or team that you're working with. And that's
S6: great for two reasons. One is because you're being proactive
S6: in thinking about others or how you can contribute more
S6: to the company, which is always like teams that have
S6: worked for me, that have been proactive. I always think
S6: highly of them, and I'm always happy to coach because
S6: I think, wow, you've actually taken the time to identify like, yes,
S6: it's beneficial to you, but you've also told me why
S6: it's going to be beneficial to me and or the company. Um,
S6: and then I guess sitting down with the appropriate person
S6: and actually working out, okay, here's a bit of a
S6: plan and here's some goals that I've got and that
S6: potentially is out of a review process. Like you don't
S6: have to wait. The thing I would say about that
S6: is you don't have to wait for formal processes to
S6: make some of those moves as well. Um, so yeah,
S6: and then working out a bit of a plan and saying,
S6: what are the gaps that I have? And then workshopping
S6: that with the person and saying, okay, this is this
S6: might be a way that I can go and do that.
S6: And then it would be looking around and saying, who
S6: is someone either at that workplace or within my circle,
S6: who might do something similar or who I might be
S6: able to talk to? And it doesn't have to be
S6: a formal mentor, but talk to to actually find out more.
S6: And that even could be someone you don't know. Um,
S6: so I've got my middle son just finished year 12. Um,
S6: and obviously that's a time when, you know, he's looking
S6: for courses. So I had a similar discussion with him
S6: and said, what about finding out someone you admire. You
S6: don't have to know them or have any connection to them.
S6: And go onto their Wikipedia page and just find out
S6: what degree they did and what he found by doing
S6: that was that some of them did degrees that had
S6: nothing to do with what they were doing now. So
S6: that then gave him a feeling of hope and inspiration
S6: that it's not the end of the world. If you
S6: pick something and he doesn't love it, and it's similar.
S6: If you have those conversations or look at other people's
S6: LinkedIn or profiles outside and say, oh, okay, actually, if
S6: you go right back to just after they graduated from university,
S6: they might be doing something completely different. So I think
S6: that's a really important step to to also realise that
S6: the people you might look at and admire and what
S6: they're doing now is probably very different.
S2: Yeah, it's so true. And I think what's also so
S2: important within that is this the self-awareness, but also the
S2: control that that we have. So I think what often
S2: can happen in these situations if someone's not happy within
S2: their role, maybe because they want more of a challenge
S2: or they want other things within their role that they
S2: haven't done before, and they want to build on those strengths,
S2: but that technically isn't in their role. It can kind
S2: of sometimes go two ways. One way is that they
S2: leave the company. And then I think from like an
S2: employer's perspective, sometimes I think like, goodness me, I wish
S2: you spoke to me because we could have made something work.
S2: And it's that assumption that, oh, they won't be able
S2: to make something work, so I won't ask. But I
S2: think second of all is the awareness that you can't.
S2: I don't think you'll get a good outcome if you
S2: go to your employer and say, I don't know, just
S2: say you're currently working in, I'm going to use podcasting
S2: for an example. You're editing videos, but you want to
S2: become a producer, and you go to your boss and
S2: you say, okay, I want to be a producer now.
S2: So I don't want to do any video editing. That
S2: for a business is so difficult because they haven't budgeted
S2: for another producer role. They then need to backfill your role.
S2: And I think as if someone came to me with that,
S2: what would be difficult is that they've only considered themselves
S2: and they haven't considered the business, which is really important.
S2: You have to balance that. So I think that is
S2: such good advice and good advice. The easier you can
S2: make it for your employer to make those changes. So
S2: if you've acknowledged and I think as well, it's like
S2: if you're asking to be a producer when you've never
S2: done it before, it's very likely there's gaps in your
S2: skill set, right. So owning, owning that and saying, here's
S2: what I need to learn. I know what I need
S2: to learn, here's how I'm going to upskill, and here's
S2: how I'm going to be able to do my job
S2: and maybe get a little bit of experience in that.
S2: And that way, then I think it's really easy to
S2: come to a solution, and you're so much more likely
S2: to kind of move forward with your employer instead of
S2: kind of leaving them being like, oh, I don't know
S2: how I can, like, I really love I love you
S2: as a team member. I think you contribute to culture.
S2: You're fantastic at your job, but I don't know if
S2: I can just make you a new job on the
S2: spot because it's not in the business plan. And, you know,
S2: obviously we all have budgets and headcount allocation and things,
S2: and so that can sometimes make it harder.
S3: Oh yeah. For sure. I think that's a very good point.
S3: And I think I was going to go into the
S3: kind of opposite spectrum is in like the bit more
S3: extreme if someone's figured out, actually, you know, I want
S3: a complete career change. Where do we begin? But before
S3: we go there, I feel like what you've touched on earlier,
S3: even in like tuning into how you feel at work
S3: or doing certain tasks, etc., can be easier said than
S3: done in like working out what your strengths are, what
S3: brings you joy, that sort of stuff. So do you
S3: mind touching on that first? Because I think regardless of
S3: whether you just want a bit of a role change
S3: or some responsibility change, or you want to upskill and
S3: like work towards something, or you want to completely change
S3: your career path, you kind of got to really understand,
S3: like what it is you're actually going to enjoy and
S3: feel challenged and, um, you know, uh, want to do
S3: and feel motivated to do, um, if it is going
S3: to be a big change. So how do people figure
S3: that out?
S6: Yeah, I think strengths is something I work with people
S6: a lot on this and a lot of people find
S6: it hard. Haha. Um, the best way I always try
S6: and go back to when you're younger because generally those
S6: like base strengths and foundational strengths don't necessarily change. They
S6: will evolve and you'll you'll grow, you know, build on them.
S6: So that's one thing like, what did I love to
S6: do when I was younger and when I, you know,
S6: a lot of people say at uni or they might have,
S6: you know, contributed to the magazine or done really creative things.
S6: And so you start to tap into, okay, maybe actually,
S6: I am really creative and I've just that's been lost somewhere.
S6: And you know, I need to build that back in.
S6: So it it does also give you clues to what
S6: you used to love and what lit you up. And
S6: would that still light you up? Are you still doing it?
S6: Why not? So that's one part. Um, and the other
S6: part is, what are you doing when you're in flow?
S6: So when you're, you're at your most productive, but also like,
S6: you feel good and, and everything comes together. Um, and
S6: that's not to say that, you know, there's not speed bumps,
S6: but you know, when you're sitting at your desk or
S6: you're in a room doing an activity, it doesn't even
S6: have to be like formal work, office work. Um, and
S6: the time just passes. Yeah. And you don't even notice
S6: that's being in flow. I imagine that probably happens for
S6: you both here when you're having those conversations. And that's
S6: a really good clue. And then the third thing, which
S6: I've done this again recently, um, I love doing it
S6: every few years. But I asked a group of people
S6: close to me, um, as well as some that I
S6: work with, what my superpower was because I really wanted
S6: to hone in on. I believe I'm doing what I
S6: love and what I'm good at, but I also wanted
S6: other people's perspective. And I actually got some really insightful
S6: things that I hadn't necessarily been thinking about. Um, so
S6: that's the other thing I'd say is that obviously people
S6: you trust, people that are objective as well. Um, and
S6: not just going to tell you what you want to hear,
S6: but I think those three things pulled together. Yeah, are
S6: quite powerful.
S3: I love that idea because it's we can also be
S3: like our worst critic in that you can kind of
S3: focus more on what maybe you're not so good at
S3: and kind of forget about the strengths. So I think
S3: that's a fantastic exercise. Yeah.
S2: And it's I mean it's very it's so hard to do.
S2: I remember when I first came to you and I
S2: was like, I think I asked you to. I was like,
S2: I need to do a test and see if I'm
S2: good at my job so you can make me a test.
S2: You're like, wow, wow, we've got some work to do
S2: with this lady anyway. But it is. It's hard to do.
S6: It is. Yeah. I think the other thing is your
S6: strengths don't always bring you joy. Yeah. Yeah. So that's
S6: okay to acknowledge as well. And you know, our we
S6: shouldn't put all of our expectations on the job delivering
S6: us everything. No. Again, just like a relationship. Tube. Um,
S6: you know, my friends often say to me, it's not
S6: going to be perfect. There's always going to be something.
S6: And it's so true. Um, and that's part of it. Like,
S6: you know, it's actually weighing up what are the things
S6: that are most important. And I think that's where your
S6: values also come in and have an interplay with your strengths.
S6: Because your strengths are innate. They're things you're good at.
S6: Their skill based values are more around how you feel
S6: and how aligned what you're doing is with what you
S6: care deeply about. Uh, and so, yeah, you need to
S6: really use both of those things because joy will be
S6: inextricably linked to both like but but also I think
S6: values aligned work absolutely is where joy is to be found.
S2: How do we navigate that?
S3: Yeah.
S6: We don't have long enough to know. Um, there's a
S6: whole process I've got for going through values which I
S6: think you're familiar with. Um, yeah. So I think and
S6: a lot of them do require time and energy. And
S6: this is a great time of year to be doing
S6: this work. Um, it's a time to use breaks and
S6: holidays and sort of a bit of a slower time. Certainly,
S6: you know, in this part of the world to really reflect,
S6: but a lot of it is going back and identifying
S6: when you were younger and, you know, what did you
S6: really enjoy and what was important to you, but also
S6: through your life, when have you felt really good about
S6: something you've done or achieved and why? And what was
S6: it about that thing? And it doesn't have to be
S6: related to work or winning an award or anything like that.
S6: But what do you remember rushing home from school and
S6: telling your family about? And you know what's made you proud? Like,
S6: what makes you feel proud, you know, in connecting with
S6: all of those emotions. Um, and then I usually supply
S6: people with a big long list as well, so they
S6: can actually map out and just start circling, you know, um, trust, integrity, passion, love, joy,
S6: you know, and, and most people have big scribbles all
S6: over the page and there's lots, there's too many. Um,
S6: and then it's a matter of narrowing them down. And
S6: what you'll find through that process is that actually a
S6: lot of them, um, clump together, they group together. And
S6: so you start to get a thematic, um, and between
S6: some of those memories of, you know, feeling really good
S6: in yourself, um, and feeling really proud and digging into why, uh,
S6: also identifying, you know, words that really jump off a
S6: page to you as key drivers. Um, and your why,
S6: that's sort of I describe values as that's your why?
S6: That's your reason. You know of what lights you up.
S6: So yeah. And then it's narrowing them down to I
S6: like to try and get to between, well four and five,
S6: four and five sort of key values because otherwise I
S6: think and they just then can act as such an anchor. Um,
S6: you know, if one of my key values, for instance,
S6: is family, um, then do I want to say yes
S6: to that job which is going to cause me to
S6: travel and be away from the family two out of
S6: four weeks a month? You know, it really does help
S6: with decision making. Uh, and it does help sometimes, certainly
S6: for me to also realise why I'm not feeling great
S6: in a certain work environment.
S3: Yeah. I'm not. I'm nodding really strong because I think
S3: going through the values exercise with you earlier in the
S3: year certainly made me so much more aware of that
S3: sort of stuff, and it and it has made making
S3: decisions easier in a sense, because it's like I'm just
S3: trying to lean more into to me and like what
S3: I think is true to me. And when working through
S3: my values is one way of doing that. Um, but
S3: I think, like even with someone when we're thinking of,
S3: I think what you said before about your work doesn't
S3: necessarily have to be the thing that brings you all
S3: the joy in every parts of your job, just like
S3: it doesn't have to meet every value that you have. Um,
S3: what would you say? Like is the red flag, though,
S3: if none of your values are aligned with the work
S3: that you do?
S6: I think so.
S3: Yeah.
S6: I, I think, yeah, I mean, my, one of my
S6: values is courage, for instance. And so I spent some
S6: time at a big four bank when I sold a
S6: company there, and I wasn't able to exert as much
S6: courage and bring things into the world quick and fast.
S6: And and I totally respect that. And that was a
S6: brilliant environment to create other things, but for me, that's
S6: probably one of my most important values. And so it's
S6: also why it's important to have a small list and
S6: and know the ones that are really deal breakers. I guess, again,
S6: like a relationship. Like, what are your deal breakers? Uh,
S6: and I think that's really good to identify because then
S6: you'll also, uh, have more courage, I guess, to make
S6: hard decisions because sometimes it is really hard if it's
S6: a great job and it pays really well, but it
S6: actually doesn't tick any thing on your values list, even
S6: it might tick all your strengths or some of your strengths,
S6: but none of your values. Then it might be why
S6: you're not enjoying it as much as you potentially could
S6: if you went to another workplace that was really values aligned.
S4: One. Two three.
S2: What about patience? I think that's also something that kind
S2: of can can come into this because a lot of
S2: people I know, maybe it is because when you have
S2: a goal for a role that you want to work towards,
S2: or maybe as an example, you used to work in PR,
S2: that was your first business that you had. And when
S2: you come into a PR agency, it's very unlikely you
S2: will be emailing, you know, the Herald Sun, the age
S2: that the press contacts the day you walk in, because
S2: that's something I would say. You probably learn. You learn
S2: over time, right? There's other jobs that you do first.
S2: How important is patience? Because I think it can be.
S2: And I totally understand why. Why for a lot of people,
S2: especially if they're really driven, they want to just keep
S2: going and going and going and building because they've got
S2: this goal of where they want to get to. And
S2: sometimes it does take like if PR is your passion,
S2: it does take for you to get to that more
S2: senior role, to be able to have a role that's 100%
S2: PR or whatever that might be. So that could could
S2: be quite jarring for people if they're kind of thinking about, well,
S2: I'm doing all this other work that doesn't feel good,
S2: even though I'm on the path to, you know, what
S2: I want to do. How important is patience and how
S2: how do you kind of recommend people? And maybe it's
S2: maybe more common for entry level jobs, but also it's
S2: for people that might change career paths or whatever it
S2: might be. How important is patience and how how should
S2: we be thinking about it? Because we live in a
S2: world like we think of Uber Eats. Like we can
S2: get everything straight away this instant, like Instagram, instant validation.
S2: And at work. That's not always, um, or really very
S2: rarely the case.
S6: Yeah, I think so. My mum, when I was going
S6: through school, my mum worked at a university library, and
S6: the one observation she made throughout her career there, which
S6: was quite lengthy, was the change in the students willingness
S6: to wait for a book. Interesting. And she literally saw
S6: that happen before her own eyes, going from cohorts of
S6: students that were happy to wait days, weeks for a
S6: textbook and a book to ones that absolutely. Why isn't
S6: it available now? And if not now, tomorrow. And yeah,
S6: so it's I think it's so real, the fact that
S6: we are we just technology and we're so used to
S6: getting every single thing we want now that we're almost
S6: once we get things, we're not even as excited. And
S6: I think that's one thing that is so important is,
S6: is the process and the journey and working out actually
S6: how we can not only value it and and learn patience,
S6: which I do think is I love ambition like I,
S6: and I really relate to impatient people. I think it's great.
S6: It's that hunger, it's that hustle. But similarly, if we
S6: don't enjoy the process and also respect some of Some
S6: of the learnings and things that patients will grant us.
S6: We won't be as good at what we do anyway. Um,
S6: and that's not to say, you know, because there's also that,
S6: you know, you have to work your way up. Not necessarily. Like,
S6: I think there's absolutely opportunity for people to jump the
S6: queue if they have talent and they work really hard.
S6: And but part of that is also by doing the work,
S6: you're not going to get there without that. Um, and,
S6: and doing the work is learning. And learning is what
S6: makes us really, really good at what we do. Um,
S6: and you've seen it. Everyone's seen that play out. The
S6: difference when you're sitting around a table or interacting with
S6: people at work, people that really know their stuff and
S6: that have been patient and have really taken in every
S6: opportunity and throughout their process of progression Depression and those
S6: that you know that haven't. And it's you know, there's
S6: a far more think about the long game is what
S6: I would say, um, is sort of, you know, to
S6: relate it, I guess, to a marathon, you know, the
S6: people that put in the boring, probably more grueling parts
S6: of the training, which is just, you know, rather you
S6: just of course, everyone wants to get to the day. Yeah,
S6: but what are you like? And do you even cross
S6: the finish line if that's how you tackle a marathon
S6: and it's, you know, it's the same philosophy.
S2: It's. Yeah, that's such good advice. Now people might be
S2: sitting and thinking about how they feel in their jobs
S2: and maybe they're like, oh, I don't feel so good.
S2: But I think with the current kind of cost of
S2: living crisis we're in and the job market, and then
S2: also like for people that have, you know, kids, mortgage, etc.,
S2: it can be quite scary to think about changing Careers
S2: or not careers or even just roles. How do you
S2: recommend people kind of navigate that?
S6: Um, so there's a couple of things. One is I
S6: would love people to think about the philosophy of ikigai,
S6: which is I love my Japanese philosophies, as we know,
S6: but ikigai is all about purpose. And it's a way
S6: to actually map your purpose. Um, and to do that,
S6: you do a list of what you're good at. You
S6: do a list of what you can get paid for.
S6: You do a list of what you love to do,
S6: and then you do a list of what the world
S6: needs because it's all around purpose. Now there should be
S6: a few dot points, at least in each. And I
S6: think what people expect is that all of those things,
S6: you know, you should put them in a Venn diagram
S6: and then all of those things just cross over and
S6: you have your dream job. Amazing job. Life doesn't work
S6: like that. Just like we said around partners, you know? Now,
S6: if I use my career as an example, I have
S6: had smiling mind. Perfect example. I'm passionate about it. I
S6: love the work that we do. I can use things
S6: I'm good at. Never paid me a cent. Now, that
S6: doesn't mean that every everything I've done in my career
S6: isn't really valid, including that. It just means that I
S6: can't necessarily get everything out of the one thing. So
S6: if you're in a job and you're not in a
S6: position to move, there are other parts of your ikigai
S6: that you can embrace. Take charge of and enjoy. You know,
S6: while you work out either what else you want to
S6: do or while you work through what's going on for
S6: you in your personal life and in your financial life.
S6: So that's that's one thing. The other thing I would say,
S6: and this is more of a prod, which I love
S6: giving people, um, just to put a little question mark
S6: in their mind is what part of I can't because um, or. Yes,
S6: but is to do with construct and constructs that you
S6: have created for yourself and potentially your family. But I
S6: think then be real with yourself. So that's the one
S6: thing I would say. We there's a lot of stories
S6: that we tell ourselves, and there's a lot of ways
S6: that we justify not necessarily being as happy or engaged
S6: as we could be. And a lot of it is
S6: built on a construct that we've actually created for ourselves. Um,
S6: so it's just really that's the little prod New Year's
S6: prod that I give. Um, so ikigai gives us an
S6: opportunity to have breadth And engagement in other areas. If
S6: we want to, and really discover how to bring that
S6: into our lives, if it's not already, particularly what the
S6: world needs. There's so much to do out there that
S6: you don't get paid for, that you can use your strengths,
S6: you know, um, if you want to. That can really
S6: light you up. So it's not all about, um, money
S6: and climbing the ladder. Um, and also the last thing
S6: I would say is I think it's also potentially not
S6: focusing too much on what things look good.
S3: Um, like, externally, what other people might think on LinkedIn.
S6: Yeah. I'd be great for my profile. I've done it.
S6: I've done it. And they're always the things I've disliked
S6: the most. Yeah. By far. So a lot of people
S6: look at my LinkedIn and they're like, whoa, this is
S6: I just I just own it. I'm like, it's the
S6: yellow brick road. Bless. Bless you. Thank you. Double bless.
S6: Thank you. So dainty.
S3: I know it was a tiny little squeak.
S6: I, um, and. Yeah, but I just own it. And
S6: I said, yeah, now I call it my yellow brick
S6: road of a career. Because I have followed my curiosity,
S6: I have followed my passion, and I've worried less about
S6: the fact that I might not have been at a
S6: place for as long or, yeah, that I haven't stayed
S6: in a particular industry or I've. Yeah, I've not let
S6: that rule. Yeah. And when people look at my LinkedIn
S6: they'll know what I mean. But I think you also.
S2: Have the conviction in in why. Right. Because I think
S2: if I'm thinking if I'm interviewing someone and they've changed
S2: jobs like ten times in two years and I say why?
S2: And they're like, they don't have a like there's no
S2: conviction in it. That's when I'd be like, okay, well,
S2: I don't know if you'll be the right person, but
S2: I think that's I think there's an assumption that if
S2: you have, you know, changed career paths like you have,
S2: that it's always bad when it's not at all like
S2: there's so much more context that that matters around it.
S6: I also think, uh, people underestimate how much the truth works. Yes. So,
S6: like like I if someone said in an interview because
S6: a lot of people also say to me, I can't leave.
S6: I haven't even been there a year. Yeah, right. Yes.
S6: And again, like, well, you can you're choosing to stay
S6: because you want to stay longer than a year. Completely fine.
S6: But again that's a construct that says yeah, that looks
S6: better if I have, rather than sitting in front of
S6: a potential new employer and saying, do you know what
S6: I actually, rather than being somewhere that I just knew
S6: wasn't a values fit for me, I decided to get
S6: really proactive and make the change straight away, because I
S6: want to be in a workplace where I'm really contributing
S6: and really engaged. That's powerful. Potential manager is going to
S6: be unimpressed by that.
S2: One note there with the truth, because I felt this
S2: this has happened quite a few times when we've interviewed
S2: people is The truth is not good if you're going
S2: to trash an ex-employee. I feel like if you're going to.
S2: But it's talking about what you just said. But I've
S2: had I feel like just just a note. I feel
S2: like when that happens, I sit there like, I'll be next,
S2: you know, like you just I feel like it's not about.
S2: And then, you know, that's that's making it personal. But
S2: it's not personal. It's about what you just did, like
S2: it was about you and how you felt in that organization.
S2: That's right. You want values, land, work. And so I
S2: just want to call that out because I feel like
S2: when people do that, sometimes they want to email them afterwards.
S2: I have before actually and said, like, hey, this is
S2: maybe not the best thing to do in an interview.
S6: Definitely. Well, maybe they need to read The Four Agreements
S6: because then they'd be impeccable with their word.
S2: Exactly.
S3: Hopefully they have, because it was in our special shares episode.
S6: So exactly for the holidays. If not.
S2: Get it. Exactly. And I think the other thing, just
S2: to be really clear and I'd love to circle back
S2: on and you touched on it before is just around
S2: not putting. And I mean, it's very much in the
S2: what I think what you were talking about before, not
S2: putting it. I think Covid did this a little bit
S2: when we started working from home, and there wasn't as
S2: much of a divide between work and life. And yeah,
S2: the work started then, like during Covid, covering expenses for
S2: like at home stuff, because like, if you're working, like
S2: your desk or whatever. Yep. I think what that also
S2: meant was there became a bit more of a blurred
S2: line on the expectation on the workplace. And I think
S2: people expect more than ever from their work to and
S2: for their job to, like, solve everything in their life.
S2: You know, if they have bad mental health, it's like, oh,
S2: it's because they don't. It's because of my job or
S2: whatever it means. I think it's happening a little bit
S2: more than than before. And obviously, what the danger is,
S2: and it's like anything, if you put every expectation on
S2: any area in your life, if one thing goes wrong
S2: in that, like you will just be crushed. Like if
S2: your whole life is your relationship, like, that's super, super,
S2: super dangerous if your whole life is your career, etc..
S2: Do you mind talking to that a little bit more?
S2: Because I just think it's really important because sometimes people think, oh,
S2: I'll change your job and my whole everything will be solved,
S2: but it's not always the case, right?
S6: Yeah. Well, exactly. And that's why I think I said
S6: at the top of the episode is the most, I think,
S6: important question to ask, if not the first one, is,
S6: is this about work or is this about me? Yeah.
S6: And I actually love that question just outside of work. I,
S6: I've really learned and I often challenge and talk to
S6: people about resistance. So resistance is a gift if you
S6: choose to use it that way. So things you're like, oh,
S6: I can't stand that person or oh, I didn't like that.
S6: There will be something in there that is part of
S6: you that you don't like. Yeah. Or if it's a
S6: book that someone says, oh, you really should read this
S6: and you start reading, it's like, oh, this is crap.
S6: It will usually be because it's hit some kind of nerve.
S6: And that's exactly the same if if you're in a
S6: workplace and certain things are coming up for you there
S6: to be explored and not just explored. To blame the
S6: external circumstances, although that that may be valid and that
S6: that's okay, but also an opportunity to turn inward and say,
S6: how am I showing up? Yeah. How am I contributing
S6: to this feeling? And I think in life, not just
S6: in work, if you can do that and own your part,
S6: then life will be better. And then when everything isn't perfect,
S6: which it never is, and when you're only enjoying, you know,
S6: a smaller proportion of your work and you do need
S6: to continue there, then it is easier if you are
S6: still showing up and doing the work on yourself to
S6: make that optimal. I honestly believe that also you're just
S6: way more fun to be around. It's a pleasure to
S6: be around people who own their part and you know
S6: that take responsibility for themselves and the role that they're playing. Um,
S6: it's it's very refreshing. And it, it shows other people
S6: how to be as well. So yeah, I think it's
S6: that's a really great challenge to sort of take into
S6: a workplace. The other really good tip that I actually
S6: I'm going to credit her, but Debbie Lee, um, who
S6: is the careers counsellor where Henry goes to school, made
S6: a really good point talking about the 8020 rule. It
S6: was really around decision making and obviously, you know, year
S6: 12 making a decision. But I loved it more generally,
S6: which was you're never really going to be 100% on
S6: any decision you make or anything that you do like
S6: that is just unrealistic. But if you're 80%, it's bloody good. Yeah.
S6: And then see how the how the percentage changes over time.
S6: And I really I just love that. Yeah. The wisdom
S6: of Debbie Lee.
S2: I love that a lot of a lot of my
S2: girlfriends use that for relationships as well. And I think
S2: you never like, when has anyone been 100% sure to
S2: break up with someone? I mean, unless they did something
S2: like very, very, very bad, of course. But if there's no, like,
S2: wrongdoing and it's just not feeling right. That's right. The
S2: amount of doubt you have in yourself, like, oh, what
S2: if I you know, what if it's the only person
S2: I'm going to get? And that's a scarcity mindset of
S2: what if it's just a stage and a phase and
S2: blah blah, blah, etc. but I feel like that actually
S2: applies so well to like a lot of decisions we
S2: make in our lives outside of career too.
S3: Yeah, I think even when something drastic does happen, like terrible, terrible,
S3: something that really happened, you could still be 99% because
S3: that 1% is holding on to all the positive times
S3: you had with this person, and that maybe they'll learn
S3: from their mistake and you can flip it. And I
S3: think it's even the same in like making a big,
S3: big decision like having a kid or whatever. When I've
S3: said before, I 100% knew I was ready. I was
S3: definitely in the 90s. Like, I knew it was something
S3: that I like, definitely wanted, felt right at the time, etc.
S3: but there wasn't. Of course, there was other considerations that
S3: were going on in my mind, but it's so good
S3: and it's what you've spoken to a lot laws this year,
S3: and leaning into is like the decision you make is
S3: going to be the right one. And like not trying
S3: to pre-empt what that hindsight will be because hindsight only
S3: happens after the fact. Um, and just really leaning into
S3: that decision and being okay with the learnings that come
S3: from it, whether it's like you look back in hindsight
S3: and think, yeah, I'm so glad I did that, or okay,
S3: I'm glad I did that, but now I'm in another pickle.
S6: Yes. And just trusting that there's purpose in it as well.
S6: There's purpose in every decision and even the so-called wrong ones.
S6: There's sort of there isn't any such thing because that
S6: will place you somewhere else, which will lead to something else,
S6: like your yellow brick road. And that's exactly, exactly. And
S6: I think it makes it a much more refreshing way
S6: to live as well. Like, there are no wrong decisions.
S6: There are decisions that you may think, oh, that wasn't ideal.
S6: What is the next best decision? So I can take
S6: a different direction? Um, and it's really, you know, I
S6: think it's. Yeah, it's a great way to live.
S2: And trusting yourself. Right. Instead of and this is something
S2: we've worked on with me in that if I'm like,
S2: if I make I used, I used to think if
S2: I made a wrong decision that it would be like
S2: the end of the world, like literally that would Stuart
S2: Little no, not Stuart Little I got it wrong. Yeah
S2: Stuart little chicken little chicken little not Stuart Little he's the.
S6: He's the mouse.
S2: They're both cute. Chicken little that it's like it would
S2: be a disaster and everything will be over. But that's
S2: like there's not many decisions we can make in our
S2: lives like especially within career where we can never go
S2: back or it's going to be the end of the world.
S2: And there was an episode, actually on The diary of
S2: a CEO, and I remember we spoke about it and
S2: Steven Bartlett. Actually, no, it was on Mel Robbins podcast,
S2: and Steven was talking and he was he was talking
S2: about he used an example of someone in banking, and
S2: they've been in banking for like their whole career, 20
S2: or 30 years. And they weren't happy, but they wanted to.
S2: They were thinking about, oh, if I leave, like, well,
S2: what if I can't get another job in a totally
S2: different career? What if I do? Like, I don't make
S2: money from that. What if it's a disaster? And his
S2: kind of response back to that is like, well, that
S2: risk seems so small compared to spending another ten years
S2: in something that brings you no joy. And we so
S2: often don't think about that, but we just have to trust.
S2: And I think that's like what the biggest learning that
S2: I've had in, you know, having the pleasure of working
S2: with you this year is just trusting that things will
S2: be okay. And especially if you have a mindset like
S2: I did where I was like, no, things won't be okay.
S2: I have to control everything. Otherwise it'll be a disaster. Like,
S2: I know we have some cloud things that also think like, yes, yes,
S2: there's many. It's just letting go and and trusting that
S2: like it's, you know, there is a, you know, a
S2: zero point. It's like with anxiety there's always that always
S2: that 0.001% chance the worst thing will happen, but there's
S2: also 99.9% chance that it won't.
S6: Exactly. And also sometimes things that happen to you. So
S6: it's also not, um, like career wise. It's not always
S6: your decision either. And I think that's important to touch on,
S6: particularly when the economy, you know, is as it is. Uh, and,
S6: or you go for I remember the first job, um,
S6: or one of the second job I went for, it
S6: was junior fashion editor at the age. Shout out to
S6: Rachel Wells. We got down to the last two and
S6: she won. Um, I don't think I've ever been more
S6: devastated about missing out on a job. Ever. I could
S6: not stop crying. I mean, I was a lot younger,
S6: but also, I felt like everything I saw for myself
S6: was over. Now I look back on that now and
S6: think that would have taken me in a direction that
S6: I know would not have played to my all my strengths,
S6: particularly the the really big ones. Uh, and it wouldn't
S6: have been right for me at all. But at that
S6: moment I was devastated. Now that decision was made for me,
S6: and it took me a while to get over. But
S6: I can look back also in retrospect and see that
S6: was actually me being looked after and being taken in
S6: the direction I needed to go. So that might not
S6: happen in the moment, but I can guarantee as being
S6: a lot older than certainly both of you, and I'd
S6: say nearly all of the listeners that that will happen,
S6: that will happen all through your life, where a decision
S6: may have been made for you. And at the time, um,
S6: certainly in your career it felt devastating. But it will actually,
S6: in retrospect, have led to something else that I am
S6: sure will be bigger and better and more aligned.
S3: Yeah, that is so good. And I, I have to say,
S3: my mum listens to the podcast and she's definitely older
S3: than you, so I can already hear her in my
S3: text messages, being asked quickly if.
S2: By telling someone my mum's older than you, but she
S2: said she said.
S3: I'm sure I'm older than all of my all of
S3: the listeners. I know that our mothers will both be listening. Um,
S3: but speaking of age, because I think that's an important
S3: one to touch on, because it can be the excuse
S3: that a lot of people jump to before we finish up.
S3: Is it ever too late to change your career or
S3: your job?
S6: Definitely not. Definitely not. Um, firstly, our brain literally is plastic. Like,
S6: we we have neural pathways like we can if we
S6: can reshape our brain, we can reshape our careers. Um, so, yeah,
S6: I think it is all possible. It's just also what?
S6: I guess there'll be potential pay offs if it's a
S6: big pivot. Uh, I think, you know, that is a
S6: decision to make, probably as a, as a family or
S6: as a, you know, if you're in a relationship, but
S6: I Absolutely. I mean, I've changed careers completely, doing the coaching,
S6: you know, and have moved into that work and, and
S6: sort of away from more of that sort of straight
S6: sort of business work. And that does feel like a leap.
S6: I'm doing a hypnotherapy degree. I just I feel that
S6: we put barriers in front of ourselves that don't need
S6: to be there. But like I said before, a lot
S6: of it is stories that we're telling ourselves about why
S6: we can't do something and there's always something that's underneath that.
S6: And usually it will be fear. Or it could also
S6: be about like, what will people think? Like, does that
S6: seem weird or. Yeah, but what I would say is,
S6: and I've been cruel enough to one of my clients
S6: recently to she's a fantastic writer. And so I've made
S6: her do her eulogy as part of her homework. And. Wow. Yeah.
S6: But the reason is that I think when you consider
S6: what you might like yours to say, what would the
S6: content be?
S2: Mhm. It's not going to be about your job.
S6: Exactly. And it might be about someone who's 80 and
S6: went on an adventure when at 40 she realized she
S6: was a nurse and she actually wanted to train to
S6: be a pilot. Who knows. But how cool. I'd like
S6: to sit at that funeral and hear that story, you know?
S6: Because that was someone who really thought anything was possible.
S6: So I think it's also really cool to, you know,
S6: and that aligns with your values as well. Uh, and
S6: When I think about my career, it's the thing that
S6: I've never been paid for that I hope people speak
S6: about at my funeral, um, which is smiling mind and well,
S6: obviously also hopefully that I'm a good human, but but,
S6: you know, career wise, I'm saying what I would want
S6: to know is it was about that that had had
S6: impact and helped people. And so all of the other
S6: things I am proud of and I've had fun doing,
S6: but to me, yeah. So I think that's also a
S6: very cool exercise. If you're a bit on the fence
S6: or you're thinking, oh, but I can't because, you know,
S6: think about it like just own what you want and
S6: then write that out and be like, okay, now how
S6: do I get there? And make sure it's, you know,
S6: make sure your kids put it in, make sure they
S6: say it, make sure it happens.
S2: Um, what a way to finish. Thank you so much
S2: for joining us. It's been incredible. I've got so many.
S2: We've spent so much time together, but I've got so
S2: much more out of today as well. So thank you
S2: so much.
S6: Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank you.
S2: Thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed
S2: the episode. If you ever want to get involved in
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