1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:02,940 S1: Just a warning that the following episode contains details of 2 00:00:02,940 --> 00:00:05,220 S1: domestic violence, including sexual violence. 3 00:00:07,980 --> 00:00:09,660 S2: A Listener production. 4 00:00:13,890 --> 00:00:17,730 S3: Hello. It's Antoinette Lateef with you. Do you picture when 5 00:00:17,730 --> 00:00:20,520 S3: you think of domestic violence? I'll tell you what quickly 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,650 S3: comes to mind for me. It's a woman with black 7 00:00:22,650 --> 00:00:26,489 S3: eyes and she's probably cowering in the corner. And the perpetrator, 8 00:00:26,489 --> 00:00:28,740 S3: as I imagine it is likely to be a middle 9 00:00:28,740 --> 00:00:32,610 S3: aged man. What about you? Maybe it's the couple you 10 00:00:32,610 --> 00:00:35,760 S3: see in public. They might be drunk and his abuse 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,190 S3: is loud and aggressive and you get the sense that 12 00:00:38,190 --> 00:00:40,650 S3: this sort of thing happens a lot. This week on 13 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:45,170 S3: the briefing as part of a special investigation into domestic violence. 14 00:00:45,180 --> 00:00:48,240 S3: We're going to challenge a lot of these stereotypes. At 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,870 S3: the moment, all major crime trends are decreasing, which is 16 00:00:51,870 --> 00:00:56,520 S3: good news, except for domestic violence and sexual assault. Over 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,670 S3: the next few days, in a briefing special, you'll hear 18 00:00:59,670 --> 00:01:03,540 S3: from women who've never shared their stories, including a victim 19 00:01:03,540 --> 00:01:08,490 S3: survivor whose abuser was her husband and also a police officer. 20 00:01:08,490 --> 00:01:11,429 S4: I can imagine that a lot of members would think 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,090 S4: that they could get away with it. It's just the mentality. No. 22 00:01:15,090 --> 00:01:20,490 S4: One report me because I'm in a authoritative environment. 23 00:01:20,490 --> 00:01:23,910 S3: And there's also growing concern about how porn is influencing 24 00:01:23,910 --> 00:01:25,050 S3: domestic violence. 25 00:01:25,170 --> 00:01:27,270 S5: Where it became an issue was when it was crossing 26 00:01:27,270 --> 00:01:30,120 S5: over into the bedroom and made me feel uncomfortable. 27 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,149 S3: And I know this doesn't make for easy listening, but 28 00:01:33,150 --> 00:01:36,900 S3: I promise there'll be solutions and you'll walk away understanding 29 00:01:36,900 --> 00:01:38,850 S3: that we all have a role to play and you'll 30 00:01:38,850 --> 00:01:41,610 S3: be equipped with a few things you can do yourself. 31 00:01:41,610 --> 00:01:44,700 S3: But first, here are today's headlines with Tom and Jan. 32 00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:47,100 S3: It's Monday, the 28th of August. 33 00:01:50,110 --> 00:01:54,100 S6: Good morning, everyone. Three. US Marines have been killed in 34 00:01:54,100 --> 00:01:58,960 S6: an aircraft crash during a joint training exercise on Melville Island. 35 00:01:59,170 --> 00:02:02,410 S6: This is just off the coast of Darwin. So 23 36 00:02:02,410 --> 00:02:06,490 S6: Marines were on board the aircraft when it crashed. It 37 00:02:06,490 --> 00:02:13,359 S6: was during a routine exercise and happened around 9:30 a.m. yesterday. Now, 38 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,760 S6: this is still a developing story. And when asked if 39 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,940 S6: she knew why the aircraft had come down, the NT 40 00:02:18,940 --> 00:02:21,280 S6: Chief Minister Natasha Fyles, said this. 41 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,040 S5: No, we'd be unable to comment on that. Our focus 42 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,530 S5: right now is, is those patients and giving them the 43 00:02:26,530 --> 00:02:27,280 S5: care that they need. 44 00:02:27,460 --> 00:02:30,490 S6: Yeah. So there are at least five patients now in 45 00:02:30,490 --> 00:02:35,110 S6: Darwin Hospital with serious injuries. And sadly, this isn't the 46 00:02:35,110 --> 00:02:39,400 S6: only sort of training crash that's happened recently. Yeah, it's. 47 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,239 S7: So devastating when these troops die in training exercises. So 48 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,750 S7: this one over the weekend was a joint exercise involving 49 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:52,930 S7: 2000 troops, Australians, Americans, troops from the Philippines, Timor-Leste and Indonesia. 50 00:02:52,930 --> 00:02:56,380 S7: And last month, you might remember that training exercise where 51 00:02:56,380 --> 00:03:00,760 S7: for Australian Army air crew members died in a helicopter 52 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,660 S7: crash off the coast of Hamilton Island. So two crashes 53 00:03:04,660 --> 00:03:09,460 S7: within a month. And in Spain, FIFA has suspended the 54 00:03:09,460 --> 00:03:14,140 S7: Spanish Football Federation Luis Roubles. After that kiss, it's the 55 00:03:14,139 --> 00:03:17,290 S7: kiss where he kissed Jennifer Hermoso without her consent after 56 00:03:17,290 --> 00:03:21,040 S7: Spain's win at the World Cup final last weekend. So 57 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,350 S7: FIFA said that he's been removed from his duties for 58 00:03:23,350 --> 00:03:28,269 S7: 90 days pending the disciplinary proceedings opened against him. They've 59 00:03:28,270 --> 00:03:32,110 S7: also banned him from contacting Hermoso, as well as Royal 60 00:03:32,110 --> 00:03:35,860 S7: Spanish Football Federation and its officials or employees during that 61 00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:40,660 S7: 90 days. This comes after he refused to resign from 62 00:03:40,660 --> 00:03:45,430 S7: his presidency, despite being under intense pressure from the Spanish government, 63 00:03:45,430 --> 00:03:48,490 S7: The female players, the clubs and officials. 64 00:03:48,490 --> 00:03:53,110 S6: This story, I think, has really just captured Spain's imagination. 65 00:03:53,110 --> 00:03:57,100 S6: I've heard it reported as being Spain's MeToo moment. And 66 00:03:57,100 --> 00:04:00,430 S6: there was a cartoon in the paper that said, Grandma, 67 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,230 S6: tell us how you won the World Cup. And the 68 00:04:02,230 --> 00:04:04,270 S6: grandma says to the to the child, oh, we didn't 69 00:04:04,270 --> 00:04:07,450 S6: just win the World Cup. We won so much more. 70 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,080 S7: So they're calling it. Yeah, as you said, Spain's MeToo moment. 71 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,140 S7: So since the final remember, it's just a week ago, 72 00:04:14,230 --> 00:04:17,230 S7: the World Cup champion players said they would not play 73 00:04:17,230 --> 00:04:21,820 S7: for the national team until the federation's leadership was removed. 74 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,870 S7: More than 50 other top female players join them in 75 00:04:25,900 --> 00:04:28,900 S7: that move. Then on Saturday, nearly all of the coaching 76 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:32,590 S7: and technical staff of Spain's women's team resigned. So did 77 00:04:32,589 --> 00:04:36,610 S7: seven members of the Spanish Football Federation all over this incident. 78 00:04:36,610 --> 00:04:38,890 S7: And then at some of the games over the weekend, 79 00:04:38,890 --> 00:04:41,500 S7: people are turning up with t shirts saying si acabo, 80 00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:46,330 S7: which means it's over. So, so much anger, so much pressure. 81 00:04:46,330 --> 00:04:48,790 S7: And finally, some kind of result. 82 00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:52,779 S6: Yeah. And I think the anger comes from Ruby Ali's 83 00:04:52,779 --> 00:04:56,500 S6: reaction to all of this. He refused to stand down. 84 00:04:56,500 --> 00:05:00,220 S6: He said that the Football Federation was actually going to 85 00:05:00,220 --> 00:05:04,000 S6: sue Hermoso for comments that she made against him. He 86 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,900 S6: also said that he was being attacked by fake feminism. 87 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,140 S6: So really standing his ground in a way that's made 88 00:05:11,140 --> 00:05:14,620 S6: a lot of people in Spain, including the government, obviously, 89 00:05:14,620 --> 00:05:18,130 S6: including a lot of football players, very angry. 90 00:05:19,060 --> 00:05:23,710 S7: And Russian investigators have confirmed that the Wagner boss, Yevgeny Prigozhin, 91 00:05:23,710 --> 00:05:27,280 S7: is dead. That's after last week's plane crash. So they've 92 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,339 S7: released a report that says the genetic test for the 93 00:05:30,339 --> 00:05:33,580 S7: ten people on the passenger list match the remains they 94 00:05:33,580 --> 00:05:37,930 S7: recovered from the crash site, including Prigozhin. There are, of course, 95 00:05:37,930 --> 00:05:40,599 S7: still questions about whether the plane crash was ordered by 96 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,850 S7: the Kremlin after Prigozhin mutinied against Russia's army in June, 97 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:49,510 S7: leading Wagner troops on a march almost all the way 98 00:05:49,510 --> 00:05:50,500 S7: to Moscow. 99 00:05:50,620 --> 00:05:54,880 S6: Yeah, it's interesting to see what Yevgeny Prigozhin legacy is 100 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,630 S6: going to be. We heard last week Putin give him 101 00:05:58,630 --> 00:06:01,750 S6: a sort of a tepid eulogy, but a eulogy nonetheless. 102 00:06:01,750 --> 00:06:03,850 S6: You know, he said that he had he was a 103 00:06:03,850 --> 00:06:08,200 S6: talented businessman. He had made a significant contribution to the war. 104 00:06:08,410 --> 00:06:11,470 S6: So it'd be interesting to see how that sort of ends. 105 00:06:11,470 --> 00:06:13,089 S6: I guess a lot of that will depend on what 106 00:06:13,089 --> 00:06:15,970 S6: happens in the war in Ukraine and whether Putin really 107 00:06:15,970 --> 00:06:18,970 S6: changes that language and insists on calling him a traitor. 108 00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:24,479 S7: And the Trump campaign has raised 7 million USD since 109 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,040 S7: his police mugshot was taken at a prison in Atlanta, Georgia, 110 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,950 S7: last Thursday. So a lot of the money's coming from 111 00:06:31,950 --> 00:06:36,950 S7: selling merchandise like mugs, t shirts and drink coolers. So 112 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,610 S7: now if I'd want to drink from one of those. 113 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,640 S7: Trump has been released on bail, but he's charged with 114 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,570 S7: plotting to overturn the state's 2020 election results. This is 115 00:06:45,570 --> 00:06:49,620 S7: the fourth indictment he's facing and potentially the fourth trial 116 00:06:49,620 --> 00:06:52,020 S7: he'll face before next year's election. 117 00:06:52,140 --> 00:06:52,529 S5: Yeah, not. 118 00:06:52,529 --> 00:06:55,200 S6: Surprised they slap in that mug shot on some merchandise. 119 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,919 S6: This feels like, you know, the the test that psychiatrists 120 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,339 S6: give kids or people where they make them look at 121 00:07:02,339 --> 00:07:05,580 S6: a picture of just a blob. And they asked them, 122 00:07:05,580 --> 00:07:08,370 S6: what do you see in this picture? It feels like 123 00:07:08,370 --> 00:07:12,500 S6: the Trump mug shot. Is that in a weird way, 124 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:14,910 S6: if you're a fan of Trump, you look at that 125 00:07:14,910 --> 00:07:19,470 S6: and you see somebody who is defiant, who is a hero, 126 00:07:19,470 --> 00:07:22,830 S6: who is standing up to the liberal establishment. If you're 127 00:07:22,830 --> 00:07:25,020 S6: on the other side, you see it as a sign 128 00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:28,380 S6: of how far Trump has fallen. It's the same picture 129 00:07:28,380 --> 00:07:31,170 S6: at the end of the day. And so I'm not 130 00:07:31,170 --> 00:07:33,510 S6: surprised he sides put it on merchandise. I wouldn't be 131 00:07:33,510 --> 00:07:36,690 S6: surprised if his detractors put it on merchandise as well. 132 00:07:37,860 --> 00:07:39,570 S7: That is so true. I feel like the whole of 133 00:07:39,570 --> 00:07:42,180 S7: America is a little bit like that. One interesting other 134 00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:45,050 S7: note on this story, Jan, is that Donald Trump Jr 135 00:07:45,060 --> 00:07:48,120 S7: is still coming here for a speaking tour next month. 136 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,450 S7: So I imagine he might be talking about this as well. 137 00:07:50,460 --> 00:07:53,489 S6: Yeah, well, he was supposed to come I think it 138 00:07:53,490 --> 00:07:55,830 S6: was a month ago and the trip got canceled because 139 00:07:55,830 --> 00:07:57,660 S6: he said he wasn't given a visa by the Australian 140 00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:01,410 S6: Government in time. The Government's denied that. But either way, 141 00:08:02,250 --> 00:08:05,160 S6: you know, he's going to have a certainly and have 142 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:06,330 S6: a lot of things to talk about. 143 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,450 S7: Yeah, a bit of new material for his speeches. All right, 144 00:08:09,450 --> 00:08:12,060 S7: We'll catch you later. Antoinette is up next with part 145 00:08:12,060 --> 00:08:14,970 S7: one of her look at domestic violence. 146 00:08:24,430 --> 00:08:27,520 S3: So I'll start with a trigger warning. The stories you're 147 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,650 S3: about to hear detail domestic violence, including sexual violence. And 148 00:08:32,650 --> 00:08:36,910 S3: it's confronting you may find it disturbing or traumatizing. So 149 00:08:36,910 --> 00:08:39,430 S3: hit pause if you need to take a moment. But 150 00:08:39,429 --> 00:08:42,010 S3: I do implore you to stay with us if you can. 151 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,949 S3: When it comes to crime trends in Australia, domestic and 152 00:08:44,950 --> 00:08:49,480 S3: sexual violence bucks the trend. Claire Weaver is Listeners investigations 153 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,699 S3: editor and she has some I'm going to say it 154 00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:55,510 S3: peculiar hobbies because one of them is trawling through crime 155 00:08:55,510 --> 00:08:58,840 S3: data in her spare time. Claire, thanks for joining us. 156 00:08:58,929 --> 00:09:01,840 S3: Some people enjoy yoga or long walks on the beach 157 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,780 S3: in their spare time, but you're no cliche. So tell me, 158 00:09:04,780 --> 00:09:07,030 S3: what did you find in your crime trawl? 159 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,220 S5: Hi, Antoinette. Yes, I am a total nerd. 160 00:09:09,220 --> 00:09:11,380 S8: I will own that. So I was going through New 161 00:09:11,380 --> 00:09:15,010 S8: South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research data over 162 00:09:15,010 --> 00:09:17,350 S8: five years and it looked at all the major crimes 163 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:20,439 S8: and helpfully marked them in green and red. Now all 164 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,050 S8: the major crimes were marked in green and had dropped 165 00:09:23,050 --> 00:09:25,089 S8: except for two of them which stood out in red. 166 00:09:25,090 --> 00:09:28,330 S8: And they were domestic violence and sexual assaults. They were 167 00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:30,160 S8: bucking the trend and had increased. 168 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,380 S3: Yeah. Wow. And do you think this is an anomaly? 169 00:09:32,380 --> 00:09:34,120 S3: It's just a New South Wales experience. 170 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,460 S8: So to find that answer, I went looking in the 171 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:39,070 S8: ABS data for all the other states and territories and 172 00:09:39,070 --> 00:09:42,010 S8: I found the same thing. We're looking at victims of 173 00:09:42,010 --> 00:09:45,130 S8: domestic violence related sexual assaults and they had increased across 174 00:09:45,130 --> 00:09:49,150 S8: the board. So Queensland had a very substantial jump of 59% 175 00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:54,250 S8: over that same time period. New South Wales 35%. WA 20%. 176 00:09:54,250 --> 00:09:59,290 S8: Northern Territory 16%, Victoria 12% and South Australia 7% now 177 00:09:59,290 --> 00:10:02,230 S8: with the Act in Tasmania we're dealing with smaller populations 178 00:10:02,230 --> 00:10:05,680 S8: compared to other states, but they have each recorded huge jumps. 179 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,850 S8: In the Act it was 54% and in Tasmania 201%, 180 00:10:09,850 --> 00:10:11,380 S8: which is just huge. 181 00:10:11,380 --> 00:10:14,080 S3: And could this in part I wonder, be a good 182 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,780 S3: thing because it shows that there's more awareness, more people 183 00:10:16,780 --> 00:10:19,420 S3: are talking about it and as a result more people 184 00:10:19,420 --> 00:10:20,140 S3: are reporting it? 185 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,660 S8: Absolutely. And that's an important part of the picture. So 186 00:10:22,660 --> 00:10:24,670 S8: much work is being done in this space, so people 187 00:10:24,670 --> 00:10:27,160 S8: are more inclined to report, which is great, but it's 188 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,410 S8: not the whole picture. All the experts I've spoken to 189 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,750 S8: have said there is also an increase. 190 00:10:31,750 --> 00:10:34,270 S3: And I'm interested in particular how this may play out 191 00:10:34,270 --> 00:10:36,309 S3: among young people, because there are a lot of sort 192 00:10:36,309 --> 00:10:39,550 S3: of stereotypes about who the perpetrator and victim is of 193 00:10:39,550 --> 00:10:41,080 S3: domestic violence. Absolutely. 194 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,240 S8: And look, the data tells us that the highest rates 195 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,610 S8: are in young people and it's very young. It's under 196 00:10:45,610 --> 00:10:49,270 S8: 18 or early 20s. And what the frontline workers are 197 00:10:49,270 --> 00:10:52,030 S8: saying is that that young people today are exposed to 198 00:10:52,030 --> 00:10:55,300 S8: porn a lot more and at a younger age than ever. 199 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:58,270 S8: And that is actually shaping their expectations when it comes 200 00:10:58,270 --> 00:11:02,920 S8: to sex. Some of this porn is explicit, violent, misogynistic 201 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,950 S8: and aggressive. And young people report they feel pressure to 202 00:11:05,950 --> 00:11:08,770 S8: re-enact some of these acts when they get into a relationship, 203 00:11:08,770 --> 00:11:09,970 S8: even if they don't want to. 204 00:11:10,090 --> 00:11:12,070 S3: And I know often the research takes a while to 205 00:11:12,070 --> 00:11:14,500 S3: catch up, but there is a slowly a body of 206 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:18,250 S3: research that's growing, that's linking the role of porn and 207 00:11:18,250 --> 00:11:19,240 S3: domestic violence. 208 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,729 S8: Absolutely there is. And another thing I heard from frontline 209 00:11:21,730 --> 00:11:24,670 S8: workers was that they're seeing a rise in really disturbing injuries, 210 00:11:24,850 --> 00:11:28,569 S8: choking strangulation injuries, which can actually have long term impact 211 00:11:28,570 --> 00:11:32,230 S8: on your brain and also really distressing internal injuries that 212 00:11:32,230 --> 00:11:33,819 S8: end up in emergency departments. 213 00:11:33,970 --> 00:11:38,380 S3: Listeners, investigations editor Claire Weaver. They're two women have decided 214 00:11:38,380 --> 00:11:41,890 S3: to share their stories for the first time. Both experienced 215 00:11:41,890 --> 00:11:44,679 S3: years of violence at the hands of people they loved 216 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,429 S3: and trusted. And porn played a role. Monique, which is 217 00:11:48,429 --> 00:11:51,400 S3: not her real name, was just 14 when her then 218 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,240 S3: boyfriend started abusing her. Monique, thanks for your time and 219 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,440 S3: being so open about such a harrowing experience in your life. 220 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,860 S3: Can you describe the domestic violence you experienced? 221 00:12:03,490 --> 00:12:07,479 S9: Basically, it was a range of different things from like 222 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:13,600 S9: coercive control, emotional abuse and blackmail to sexual assault, rape 223 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,940 S9: and physical abuse. 224 00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:19,059 S3: Your boyfriend, as I understand, was about the same age 225 00:12:19,059 --> 00:12:22,270 S3: as you, and that was 14 or 15. And at 226 00:12:22,270 --> 00:12:24,550 S3: the time, he watched a lot of porn. How do 227 00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:27,340 S3: you think that impacted the abuse you suffered? 228 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,860 S9: I sort of wasn't completely aware of it at the time. 229 00:12:29,860 --> 00:12:31,989 S9: It's something that occurred to me later on. I mean, 230 00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:34,660 S9: when asked what he was doing, he said that he 231 00:12:34,660 --> 00:12:37,660 S9: was copying things that he'd seen in porn. So looking 232 00:12:37,660 --> 00:12:40,000 S9: back on that now as an adult, I can only 233 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,880 S9: imagine the kind of pornography that that he would have 234 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,210 S9: been copying to be doing that kind of behaviour. It 235 00:12:46,210 --> 00:12:49,300 S9: wouldn't have been like the main cause of the violence 236 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:53,590 S9: and the sexual abuse, but it was definitely influencing his actions. 237 00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:55,270 S3: And was it hard. 238 00:12:55,270 --> 00:12:55,990 S9: To accept. 239 00:12:55,990 --> 00:13:00,150 S3: That domestic violence could impact someone so young? I mean, 240 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,010 S3: you were 14 at the time and that it could 241 00:13:03,010 --> 00:13:09,160 S3: include sexual violence, given that you'd also had a consensual 242 00:13:09,460 --> 00:13:11,170 S3: sexual relationship with him? 243 00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:13,570 S9: Yeah, yeah, it was really difficult. I think at the 244 00:13:13,570 --> 00:13:16,480 S9: time I felt like because I had said yes to 245 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,270 S9: the relationship, that I had said yes to anything that 246 00:13:19,270 --> 00:13:22,989 S9: he would do within that relationship. Like I felt responsible 247 00:13:22,990 --> 00:13:24,679 S9: for that, like I had signed. Up for something that 248 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,650 S9: I didn't completely understand. There are a lot of times 249 00:13:27,650 --> 00:13:30,980 S9: when when I said that I wasn't comfortable with something 250 00:13:30,980 --> 00:13:33,470 S9: or if I said I tried to stop what was happening, 251 00:13:33,470 --> 00:13:36,740 S9: he would call me frigid or he would say that 252 00:13:37,010 --> 00:13:38,929 S9: I was I was supposed to like it, or that 253 00:13:38,929 --> 00:13:41,270 S9: if I loved him, I would do this. And and 254 00:13:41,270 --> 00:13:45,320 S9: then he would also have a lot of emotional problems 255 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,240 S9: as well and sort of say things like, if I 256 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,300 S9: left him, he would kill himself. And so I felt 257 00:13:50,300 --> 00:13:55,010 S9: very stuck and and really, really not understanding what was 258 00:13:55,010 --> 00:13:58,099 S9: going on. I sort of felt really responsible in the 259 00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:00,679 S9: relationship because it's what I had signed up for. And 260 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,810 S9: and I didn't want any of those horrible things to 261 00:14:02,809 --> 00:14:05,449 S9: happen to him. And, and yeah, it was just a 262 00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:07,970 S9: really difficult situation to be in, I think, and especially 263 00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:10,100 S9: at such a young age when I had no understanding 264 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:13,280 S9: of what a healthy relationship should really look like, as 265 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,920 S9: well as not feeling like I can really go to 266 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,900 S9: anyone to talk about it. Yes. 267 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:20,150 S3: So at the time, did you know what domestic violence 268 00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:23,510 S3: looked like or have much of a concept of it 269 00:14:23,510 --> 00:14:24,660 S3: to identify it? 270 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,500 S9: Not at all. I had no idea that abuse and 271 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:30,650 S9: violence could happen within a relationship and with someone you knew. 272 00:14:31,220 --> 00:14:34,580 S9: I think especially 20 years ago, we were sort of 273 00:14:34,580 --> 00:14:38,510 S9: taught stranger danger and, you know, don't get into bands 274 00:14:38,510 --> 00:14:41,210 S9: with old men and don't take candy from strangers and 275 00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:43,910 S9: that kind of thing. I really had no understanding that 276 00:14:43,910 --> 00:14:46,520 S9: that kind of thing can happen in a relationship or 277 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,490 S9: with someone that, you know. I knew him for a 278 00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:52,340 S9: year before any of this started. So yeah, I had 279 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:53,810 S9: no idea that that was possible. 280 00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:57,230 S3: And do you think there's much discussion about the role 281 00:14:57,230 --> 00:15:01,010 S3: sexual violence plays in domestic violence? Because it sounds as 282 00:15:01,010 --> 00:15:03,980 S3: though it took you several years until you reflected back 283 00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:06,710 S3: and realized, okay, that was a form of the violence, 284 00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:08,660 S3: and porn played a role in that too. 285 00:15:09,050 --> 00:15:12,860 S9: Yeah, I think people often see it as separate, but 286 00:15:12,860 --> 00:15:18,050 S9: I think they often coexist, unfortunately. And understanding of that 287 00:15:18,050 --> 00:15:22,160 S9: happening in between really young relationships as well. I think 288 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,590 S9: people when they think about domestic violence, they think about 289 00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:28,130 S9: married couples or when they think about sexual abuse or 290 00:15:28,130 --> 00:15:30,740 S9: sexual assault, they think about, you know, older men in 291 00:15:30,740 --> 00:15:34,550 S9: positions of authority taking advantage of children. And so even 292 00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:37,890 S9: even now, as I'm processing through all of this and 293 00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:40,520 S9: what I experienced, I find it really hard to find 294 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,270 S9: information about the kind of experience that I had. And 295 00:15:44,270 --> 00:15:47,960 S9: it really wasn't until Chanel Contos came out with her 296 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,470 S9: Teach Us Consent campaign that I realized that it had 297 00:15:51,470 --> 00:15:54,170 S9: happened to so many people and it makes me really angry. 298 00:15:54,170 --> 00:15:56,990 S9: But at least I sort of felt a little bit 299 00:15:56,990 --> 00:15:59,540 S9: more validated in what I experienced because up until then 300 00:15:59,540 --> 00:16:02,270 S9: I just thought like, you know, just something was wrong 301 00:16:02,270 --> 00:16:04,370 S9: with me and I just couldn't deal with handle the 302 00:16:04,370 --> 00:16:07,580 S9: situation properly. And, you know, I'd done something wrong. 303 00:16:07,820 --> 00:16:11,120 S3: That was a woman we're calling Monique. She's not the 304 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,320 S3: only one who's seen the accessibility and influence porn has 305 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,340 S3: had on sexual violence in relationships. Rachel is a victim 306 00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:22,340 S3: survivor advocate and runs a service for women and young 307 00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:26,360 S3: people called the Legacy Foundation. Rachel, thanks for sharing your 308 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,290 S3: experience with us, which I know included physical abuse, emotional abuse, 309 00:16:30,290 --> 00:16:34,070 S3: financial abuse. But it's the sexual violence and abuse that 310 00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:36,920 S3: in some ways impacted you the most. Can you tell 311 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:38,390 S3: me what it was like for you? 312 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,500 S5: We started off in our relationship with a pretty healthy 313 00:16:42,500 --> 00:16:46,610 S5: sexual relationship, But what I found quite early on was 314 00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:49,430 S5: that there were parts of that relationship that I didn't 315 00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:53,930 S5: feel comfortable with, things like being pinned down, things like 316 00:16:53,930 --> 00:16:57,950 S5: having hands around my throat and had to. Find the 317 00:16:57,950 --> 00:17:00,590 S5: strength to speak up about those. And I feel like 318 00:17:00,590 --> 00:17:03,620 S5: that was easier early on in that relationship before the 319 00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:08,929 S5: coercive control had really taken place. But certainly what I 320 00:17:08,930 --> 00:17:11,810 S5: realized was that a lot of those uncomfortable situations had 321 00:17:11,810 --> 00:17:13,399 S5: come from porn. 322 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,120 S3: How much porn was your then partner watching you, do 323 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:17,630 S3: you know? 324 00:17:17,810 --> 00:17:20,030 S5: I don't think I knew at the start how much 325 00:17:20,030 --> 00:17:24,080 S5: porn he had watched previously and did watch when? When 326 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,949 S5: I wasn't with him. Certainly it wasn't long before I 327 00:17:27,980 --> 00:17:31,460 S5: discovered that that was a regular part of his life 328 00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:35,419 S5: and sex life. And. And I didn't necessarily have a 329 00:17:35,420 --> 00:17:40,100 S5: huge issue with that. Everybody has different sexual tastes, and 330 00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:43,430 S5: that's fine. I think where it became an issue was 331 00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:45,800 S5: when it was crossing over into the bedroom and made 332 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,670 S5: me feel uncomfortable for the majority of the relationship. I 333 00:17:49,670 --> 00:17:53,630 S5: was expected to talk dirty and if I didn't do that, 334 00:17:53,630 --> 00:17:56,690 S5: there was either no sex or I was told that 335 00:17:56,690 --> 00:18:00,500 S5: I was really boring. And the more pressure somebody puts 336 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:02,810 S5: on you to talk dirty, the less you actually want 337 00:18:02,810 --> 00:18:05,420 S5: to do that. You feel this pressure to do those 338 00:18:05,420 --> 00:18:09,859 S5: things and it actually turns you off sexually. And it 339 00:18:09,859 --> 00:18:12,020 S5: got to the point in the last few years of 340 00:18:12,020 --> 00:18:16,159 S5: our relationship where our sex life was almost nonexistent. And 341 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,229 S5: what he did was use sex as a tool of 342 00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:22,310 S5: manipulation and control. So he would withhold sex as a 343 00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:26,180 S5: form of control and tell me that I was so unattractive, 344 00:18:26,180 --> 00:18:28,250 S5: I was so weak. And the only way he could 345 00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:30,590 S5: possibly find me attractive was to watch porn at the 346 00:18:30,590 --> 00:18:31,530 S5: same time. 347 00:18:31,550 --> 00:18:35,330 S3: So now in in the support work you do, are 348 00:18:35,330 --> 00:18:38,630 S3: people having these sorts of conversations about the way sexual 349 00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:41,420 S3: violence plays out within domestic violence? 350 00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:46,430 S5: Occasionally, but certainly not enough. And we know that we've 351 00:18:46,430 --> 00:18:49,609 S5: had clients with us for two and a half years 352 00:18:49,609 --> 00:18:51,949 S5: and only after a couple of years will they talk 353 00:18:51,950 --> 00:18:55,430 S5: about the sexual violence that occurred within their relationship. We 354 00:18:55,430 --> 00:18:58,129 S5: still feel that there's a huge taboo around that, a 355 00:18:58,130 --> 00:19:03,050 S5: huge taboo around talking about sexual abuse and violence at all. 356 00:19:03,050 --> 00:19:06,470 S5: But just in talking about sex in general, and they 357 00:19:06,470 --> 00:19:10,369 S5: just don't feel comfortable. And I don't think that most 358 00:19:10,369 --> 00:19:14,360 S5: people understand the level of sexual abuse and sexual violence 359 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,350 S5: that occurs within relationships. I think they are concerned to 360 00:19:18,350 --> 00:19:21,350 S5: call it out. If somebody you're in a relationship with 361 00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:24,560 S5: physically assaults, you, you know, and you can say they 362 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,230 S5: physically assaulted you, whether you choose to do anything about 363 00:19:27,230 --> 00:19:30,350 S5: that or leave is is totally different. But you know 364 00:19:30,350 --> 00:19:32,750 S5: what it is And you call it out with sexual 365 00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:35,660 S5: violence in relationships, I think we're much less keen to 366 00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:38,600 S5: call it out. We just we feel ashamed. 367 00:19:39,020 --> 00:19:41,630 S3: And so many of the limited conversations that we are 368 00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:48,410 S3: hearing around this is generally around heterosexual relationships with male perpetrators. 369 00:19:48,650 --> 00:19:51,109 S3: What's your understanding of how this may play out in 370 00:19:51,109 --> 00:19:52,429 S3: in queer relationships? 371 00:19:52,580 --> 00:19:56,480 S5: I actually believe that it's it's far worse in queer relationships, 372 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:01,699 S5: much more likely to have sexual abuse and violence occurring 373 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:06,110 S5: and much more likely to put their partners under pressure 374 00:20:06,109 --> 00:20:08,840 S5: to be using porn and also to bring in third 375 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:14,420 S5: parties and really putting pressure to accept the third party 376 00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:16,040 S5: without that consent. 377 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,399 S3: What can we do to help young people in particular 378 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,379 S3: navigate sexual relationship and identify when it is domestic violence? 379 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,100 S5: I think it's got to start and end with education. 380 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:30,679 S5: I think we have to start educating our young ones 381 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,949 S5: about sex. What it is. I really feel that we 382 00:20:33,950 --> 00:20:36,770 S5: need to be starting that education from early ages of 383 00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:39,350 S5: primary school. And, you know, we don't have to talk 384 00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:43,160 S5: about sex in when we're talking to kindergarten children, but 385 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,490 S5: we have to start talking about respectful relationships and consent. 386 00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:49,700 S5: And I think that's where it starts. And then building 387 00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:53,119 S5: on that year after year, these aren't conversations that should 388 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,600 S5: be happening in year 5 or 6 as a one off, 389 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,840 S5: and that's it. It's never touched on again, these things 390 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,990 S5: change and I think certainly by the time our children 391 00:21:02,990 --> 00:21:04,940 S5: are in high school, this is something that we should 392 00:21:04,940 --> 00:21:07,700 S5: be building on every year, checking in with the children, 393 00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:10,160 S5: making sure they're safe, people for them to talk to 394 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,430 S5: if they do have any issues, but really making them 395 00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:17,960 S5: understand that, you know, pornography can be okay to watch, 396 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,950 S5: but it doesn't necessarily portray what a healthy sexual relationship 397 00:21:21,950 --> 00:21:24,740 S5: looks like. And if that's what you're forming your basis 398 00:21:24,740 --> 00:21:26,600 S5: of sex on, you're going to end up in a 399 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,400 S5: really awful situation. 400 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,480 S3: Victim survivor advocate Rachel sharing her story with you there 401 00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:36,620 S3: tomorrow on the Briefing. How can police protect domestic violence 402 00:21:36,619 --> 00:21:40,250 S3: victims when there's a perpetrator in their ranks? You'll hear 403 00:21:40,250 --> 00:21:44,359 S3: from an extraordinary woman who speaks out for the first time. 404 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,390 S3: She details what happens when she tried to report the 405 00:21:47,390 --> 00:21:51,290 S3: abuse she suffered for years at the hands of her husband, 406 00:21:51,290 --> 00:21:53,480 S3: who was a cop. And when she reported it to 407 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,210 S3: his colleagues in the police force. If you or. Someone 408 00:21:57,210 --> 00:22:01,920 S3: you know is experiencing family violence. Phone one 800 Respect, 409 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,000 S3: which is available 24 over seven for counselling and support 410 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,560 S3: for men who have anger, relationship or parenting issues. There's 411 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:23,060 S3: the men's referral service on one 307 6491. Listener.