WEBVTT - Supporting Friends Through the Shit with Mitch Wallis 0:00:02.570 --> 0:00:13.160 Listener. We're. Always here for you. 0:00:14.930 --> 0:00:18.500 You're listening to Darling Shine, a podcast by myself, LED 0:00:18.500 --> 0:00:22.640 Zeppelin and me. Chloe Fisher. A place where we ground womanhood. 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:27.170 Unspoken experiences. From grief to fertility and everything in between. 0:00:27.170 --> 0:00:30.770 Join us while we transform our pain into power. Encompassing 0:00:30.770 --> 0:00:34.340 all emotions, ugly and beautiful. Darlene shine is your chosen 0:00:34.340 --> 0:00:37.670 family and your survival kit for the unexpected shit life 0:00:37.700 --> 0:00:41.150 throws at you. Hey darlings. So today we're talking about 0:00:41.150 --> 0:00:43.910 mental health. So if you're struggling with your own mental health, 0:00:43.909 --> 0:00:47.330 there'll be some resources available in the show notes. So 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.450 Mitch Wallis is not just a mental health expert. He's 0:00:50.450 --> 0:00:54.140 a passionate advocate, speaker, and the founder of Heart on 0:00:54.140 --> 0:00:57.440 My Sleeve, which is a global movement that encourages open 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.300 and honest conversations about mental health. Mitch's journey began with 0:01:01.300 --> 0:01:04.179 his own struggles with anxiety and depression, and it led 0:01:04.180 --> 0:01:07.360 him to share his story and inspire millions around the world. 0:01:07.690 --> 0:01:10.780 With a background in psychology and a personal mission to 0:01:10.810 --> 0:01:13.510 change the way we talk about mental health, Mitch has 0:01:13.510 --> 0:01:15.789 become a leading voice in the field, known for his 0:01:15.790 --> 0:01:20.260 raw authenticity and deep compassion. In today's episode, we will 0:01:20.290 --> 0:01:23.440 be exploring some strategies in which you can help friends 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.970 struggling with miscarriage who are grieving some strategies in how 0:01:27.970 --> 0:01:31.330 to help yourself. We're going to be talking about postpartum 0:01:31.330 --> 0:01:36.340 depression baby blues. So whether you're seeking advice for yourself 0:01:36.340 --> 0:01:39.070 or someone that you love, this conversation is one that 0:01:39.069 --> 0:01:42.760 you definitely don't want to miss. So without further ado, 0:01:42.790 --> 0:01:46.539 let's welcome Mitch Wallace to the show. Welcome, Mitch. 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.320 Chloe, you're a legend. I'm so stoked to be here. 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.760 I'm a massive fan of your family. Coop's a good 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.980 mate of mine, and I just respect his whole demeanor. 0:01:58.010 --> 0:02:01.670 Every time I see him, I leave feeling lighter and brighter, 0:02:01.670 --> 0:02:03.980 which I just think is such a rare, rare attribute 0:02:03.980 --> 0:02:06.830 in people these days. And I followed you and your 0:02:06.830 --> 0:02:09.380 journey for a long time. I think your honesty and 0:02:09.380 --> 0:02:14.450 vulnerability through your pregnancy journey was inspiring to say the least. Um, 0:02:14.450 --> 0:02:17.960 and big fan of Phish's music and him representing us 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.830 from Down Under here, so it's an absolute pleasure to 0:02:21.860 --> 0:02:22.639 be here. 0:02:23.090 --> 0:02:27.200 Oh, yay! I'm very excited for this chat. Thanks so much, Mitch. 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.100 So someone's lost their loved one and you're feeling like 0:02:31.130 --> 0:02:32.750 you need to speak to them about it. You need 0:02:32.750 --> 0:02:35.660 to ask if they're okay. What is some of the 0:02:35.660 --> 0:02:38.330 ways that you can speak to this person without, you know, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.840 that just being that texting them saying, are you okay? Or, 0:02:41.870 --> 0:02:43.910 you know, how do we delve deeper into that conversation 0:02:43.910 --> 0:02:44.870 with these people? 0:02:44.900 --> 0:02:48.260 Yeah. Good question. So I've kind of devoted the last 0:02:48.260 --> 0:02:52.190 six years of my life to answering that ideally in 0:02:52.190 --> 0:02:55.489 the best way possible outside of someone getting a psychology 0:02:55.490 --> 0:03:02.500 College degree so that non-clinicians i.e. mums, dads, brothers, sisters, co-workers, people, 0:03:02.500 --> 0:03:07.450 managers can be there for important people in moments that 0:03:07.450 --> 0:03:11.140 matter most when they're in emotional pain. Shameless plug wrote 0:03:11.139 --> 0:03:14.080 a book called Real Conversations A five step Framework to 0:03:14.110 --> 0:03:17.200 Connect with confidence, coming out September 3rd in Australia. So 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:19.480 get a copy. But I'm going to touch on some 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:21.970 of the key concepts from that book in this talk 0:03:21.970 --> 0:03:23.770 so that if you can't be bothered reading it, you'll 0:03:23.770 --> 0:03:27.160 have what you need to still create actionable difference. So 0:03:27.190 --> 0:03:29.890 we're spending more money on mental health services. Charities are 0:03:29.889 --> 0:03:32.830 getting more visibility, stigma is reducing, blah blah blah. But 0:03:32.830 --> 0:03:37.390 loneliness has never been higher. Suicide stats are soaring and 0:03:37.390 --> 0:03:40.990 mental illness is rampant. So there has to be a disconnect. 0:03:41.350 --> 0:03:44.230 And I've been lucky enough to study under some of 0:03:44.230 --> 0:03:47.950 the leading thought leaders globally who have literally written the 0:03:47.950 --> 0:03:52.630 book on attachment style and parenting. Like Harvard professors, psychiatrists. 0:03:52.630 --> 0:03:55.460 I as well have a master's degree in clinical psychology 0:03:55.460 --> 0:03:58.250 from Columbia. And I've struggled with this for 20 years, 0:03:58.250 --> 0:04:02.540 and I kind of went back and thought to myself, well, 0:04:02.540 --> 0:04:05.690 what has been pivotal in my journey? And then what 0:04:05.690 --> 0:04:08.870 does the research say? And without a doubt, the single 0:04:08.870 --> 0:04:12.350 greatest influence to my own well-being and the reason that 0:04:12.350 --> 0:04:15.410 I chose to stay here on earth was because of 0:04:15.410 --> 0:04:20.240 my mum. My mum is my guardian angel. Such a 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.240 rock solid human. And I tried to work out well. 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.839 What was she doing so well that potentially other people 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:31.940 don't have a natural inclination for? Not by virtue of malice, 0:04:31.940 --> 0:04:34.880 but by just a lack of education. And what did 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:39.380 she happen to get lucky with and do right? And 0:04:39.380 --> 0:04:42.590 it turns out that what she did well is also 0:04:42.620 --> 0:04:46.190 what the research says works the most, and that is 0:04:46.190 --> 0:04:50.960 that human relationships are without a doubt the single greatest 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.820 influence to our wellbeing Being outside of genetics, who you 0:04:54.820 --> 0:04:57.099 have in your life is the number one predictor of 0:04:57.100 --> 0:05:00.969 happiness and the number one predictor of unhappiness. Harvard did 0:05:00.970 --> 0:05:04.510 a longitudinal study, and they looked at tons of people 0:05:04.510 --> 0:05:07.450 across the lifespan, 85 years plus. And they tried to 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:13.120 boil down the most impactful variable to when someone's on 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.820 their deathbed. They said, I've lived a good life. And 0:05:15.820 --> 0:05:18.520 it was the quality of their relationships more than their 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.210 socioeconomic status and everything else that was the driver of happiness. 0:05:22.510 --> 0:05:25.030 On the other side of the coin, when they tried 0:05:25.029 --> 0:05:27.339 to look at, well, what is the best thing that 0:05:27.339 --> 0:05:30.400 we can do to buffer against the inevitable shit that 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:34.480 life is going to throw us? And it was supportive relationships. 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:38.350 It literally was the difference between two people seeing this 0:05:38.350 --> 0:05:42.880 same traumatic event, one person being highly symptomatic later in 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.210 life and others not being so badly affected was how 0:05:46.210 --> 0:05:52.100 connected they felt through it. There's no doubt That humans 0:05:52.130 --> 0:05:55.760 need each other more than anything else, and our longevity 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.270 as a species and our ability to reverse this worrying 0:05:59.270 --> 0:06:02.900 mental illness trend is going to be made or broken 0:06:02.930 --> 0:06:08.750 on our ability to have real conversations. However, the biggest 0:06:08.750 --> 0:06:12.170 thing I've found is that people have the wrong definition 0:06:12.170 --> 0:06:16.580 of helpful when they're trying to support someone in emotional pain. 0:06:16.610 --> 0:06:20.960 Up until now, we've walked around with kind of one 0:06:20.990 --> 0:06:24.589 hammer in our tool belt, expecting that that's going to 0:06:24.589 --> 0:06:27.830 be the solve for every conversation that we have. And 0:06:27.830 --> 0:06:32.479 I call that a transactional conversation whereby our intention is 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.320 to fix and solve. And it makes sense. Right? Because 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:40.220 all of school, we are incentivized for how good we 0:06:40.220 --> 0:06:42.169 can be at solving problems. And then we're going to 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:47.570 university and the workplace, and we're promoted and compensated on 0:06:47.570 --> 0:06:51.170 how smart we are at making problems go away. So 0:06:51.170 --> 0:06:53.690 that's all well and good. But the problem is, is 0:06:53.690 --> 0:06:56.960 that thinking one tool will handle every situation is like 0:06:56.990 --> 0:06:59.840 expecting that you can assemble a house with just that instrument. 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:03.350 It's not going to happen. If something is practical, it's 0:07:03.350 --> 0:07:06.680 fine to fix the problem. If something is emotional, your 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.820 goal is to understand the person. Now that might seem 0:07:10.820 --> 0:07:15.410 very small, but in practice it has massive consequences. 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.500 It's so interesting that you say that because I remember 0:07:18.500 --> 0:07:21.980 back maybe two years ago when I was really struggling 0:07:21.980 --> 0:07:25.340 and we did a podcast episode on like Helping Friends. 0:07:25.340 --> 0:07:28.310 What to say when your friend is going through like 0:07:28.340 --> 0:07:31.490 fertility struggles. And the number one thing that I said 0:07:31.490 --> 0:07:36.560 was educate yourself. Actually going away and educating yourself on 0:07:36.590 --> 0:07:40.340 that topic or educating yourself around miscarriages, for example. And 0:07:40.340 --> 0:07:43.340 for that person who is struggling to listen to the 0:07:43.340 --> 0:07:45.980 friend that's gone out of their way, given their time 0:07:45.980 --> 0:07:50.270 to try and understand and educate themselves around that. It's 0:07:50.270 --> 0:07:53.030 so touching. Even though it's not going to help really 0:07:53.030 --> 0:07:56.990 fix your problem, to have an understanding of your friend 0:07:56.990 --> 0:07:59.930 that's trying to do help outside of just like I'm 0:07:59.930 --> 0:08:02.630 thinking of you or are you okay? It's like it's 0:08:02.630 --> 0:08:03.830 so special. 0:08:03.980 --> 0:08:07.580 And what you're touching on there, Clay, is that what 0:08:07.580 --> 0:08:11.929 that symbolizes is that they care, right? And so, so care. 0:08:11.930 --> 0:08:15.980 It's the active ingredient in a real conversation. It's advice 0:08:15.980 --> 0:08:18.800 is not the thing that gets people better. So I'll 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.140 use one more bit of research, and then I'll stop 0:08:21.140 --> 0:08:23.840 being a nerd and talk from the heart. But um, 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.190 different people have different learning styles on listening to pods, 0:08:28.190 --> 0:08:32.000 so if you're data driven, then geek out for one 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.000 more minute before I switch gears. But when I was 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.850 writing the book, I tried to find in the literature, 0:08:37.850 --> 0:08:41.840 why does psychotherapy work? Like when you go to a 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.420 counselor and you talk about your feelings and stuff, why 0:08:44.420 --> 0:08:48.250 do some people get better and others don't. And what 0:08:48.250 --> 0:08:51.850 was proven in a meta analysis, which means basically studies 0:08:51.850 --> 0:08:57.640 of studies was it didn't really matter whether someone did 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:02.800 cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavioral therapy or whatever intervention 0:09:02.830 --> 0:09:07.360 a therapist uses. The main predictor of a therapeutic outcome 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.860 was the quality of the relationship formed, i.e. how seen, heard, understood, 0:09:11.860 --> 0:09:16.360 and cared about. Because the patient has a natural healing 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:20.410 mechanism inside themselves, the therapist's job is not to fix 0:09:20.410 --> 0:09:25.360 something that's broken, but to enable the self-healing capacity to 0:09:25.390 --> 0:09:31.360 come back online. And that most pain emotionally is not 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:35.140 the problem. It's the shame. It's the shame, loneliness, frustration 0:09:35.140 --> 0:09:39.040 and guilt. It's not the problem itself when you're having 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.729 a real conversation, if all you do is hold back 0:09:42.730 --> 0:09:46.440 on giving advice and you what we call in in 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.930 our world. Sit in the mud with someone instead of 0:09:48.929 --> 0:09:52.860 trying to drag them out of it. They will feel better. 0:09:52.890 --> 0:09:53.280 That's so. 0:09:53.309 --> 0:09:54.930 True. Yes. So? 0:09:54.929 --> 0:09:58.620 So what is understanding a person and sitting in the 0:09:58.620 --> 0:10:02.880 mud actually look like in practice, versus trying to fix 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.220 their problem and take them out of the mud. So 0:10:05.250 --> 0:10:08.160 there's there's five things to avoid. And I'm going to 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.439 put a character name on them. Right. So let's assume 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.650 that someone's just had a miscarriage. The first mistake to 0:10:13.650 --> 0:10:17.640 avoid is being a magician. So that is thinking that 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.400 you can wave a magic wand and just take someone's 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.450 problem away. A magician would say something like, you should 0:10:24.450 --> 0:10:28.709 talk to Monash IVF. They're an amazing fertility vendor and 0:10:28.710 --> 0:10:30.900 they'll be able to get you back on track. And 0:10:30.900 --> 0:10:33.479 you just need to use an embryo instead of an egg. 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.700 And has Paul gone and got tests to make sure 0:10:35.700 --> 0:10:39.270 that he's fertile? All this stuff, when you're actually just 0:10:39.270 --> 0:10:41.520 grieving the loss of a life and you do not 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.690 want to hear that shit right now, There is a 0:10:43.690 --> 0:10:46.990 time and a place to pick up and move forward. Absolutely. 0:10:46.990 --> 0:10:50.949 We're not talking about wallowing, but if the first thing 0:10:50.950 --> 0:10:54.250 you do is jump straight to a solution, that person 0:10:54.250 --> 0:10:57.820 will feel like something that's broken in need of repair. 0:10:57.820 --> 0:11:02.140 And you won't actually attend to the swelling, which is 0:11:02.140 --> 0:11:06.280 a broken heart. So it doesn't mean you can't give advice. 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.559 It just cannot be straight off the bat that you 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:12.849 try and wave this magic wand and clue. People all day, 0:11:12.850 --> 0:11:17.620 every day don't even realize they've switched from a practical 0:11:17.620 --> 0:11:23.170 conversation to an emotional one. Like, for example, your partner 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.290 gets home from work and says, I'm feeling really distant 0:11:26.290 --> 0:11:28.870 from you at the moment. And you go, oh, this 0:11:28.870 --> 0:11:32.020 is a practical conversation. Okay, well, let's go for dinner 0:11:32.020 --> 0:11:36.610 on Saturday night, when actually, that was an emotional conversation. 0:11:36.610 --> 0:11:39.609 And what they wanted to hear was, shit, how long 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.540 have you felt that? What do you think's is driving that? 0:11:42.660 --> 0:11:46.679 And getting curious around the person? Not the problem. 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.319 You're just banging on everything right now. That makes so 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.980 much sense. I think I'm getting better at asking the, 0:11:53.010 --> 0:11:57.750 you know, diving deeper into the conversations. But naturally, as humans, 0:11:57.750 --> 0:12:00.180 I feel like we just try and mask the problem 0:12:00.179 --> 0:12:03.120 and sort of like divert the attention to something else. 0:12:03.150 --> 0:12:07.080 Yeah, yeah. And as I said, it's really natural because 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.630 that's the way our society is structured. That's the way 0:12:09.660 --> 0:12:12.569 our brains are hardwired. We've kind of part of the 0:12:12.570 --> 0:12:15.270 reason we're in such a shit show mentally, is that 0:12:15.270 --> 0:12:17.670 we've lost a lot of heart. We've just we operate 0:12:17.670 --> 0:12:21.090 so much from the head nowadays, but we are a social, 0:12:21.090 --> 0:12:23.760 emotional species that has learned how to think, not the 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.059 other way around. And we've forgotten a big part of 0:12:27.059 --> 0:12:30.600 who we are, and we don't like seeing people in pain. 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.849 So we go back to our traditional tool, a hammer, 0:12:32.850 --> 0:12:35.910 and we try and exchange information. But what people are 0:12:35.910 --> 0:12:39.700 looking for is, is connection, which is to feel understood. stood. 0:12:39.700 --> 0:12:44.320 So mistake number one, don't offer a solution straight away 0:12:44.620 --> 0:12:46.720 and let them ask for it as an adult if 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.439 they want your input and advice. Second mistake people make 0:12:50.470 --> 0:12:54.640 is being a thief. Again, no shame around these mistakes. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.540 I do them all the time. So the thief jumps 0:12:58.540 --> 0:13:03.069 in with a same or a me too and steals 0:13:03.070 --> 0:13:06.640 the focus. So let's say you approached a friend and 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.110 said I just had a miscarriage and they go, oh 0:13:08.140 --> 0:13:12.130 my God, I had a miscarriage three years ago. Bless, right? 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.680 They want to be like, no, you don't need to 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.859 feel alone or exposed or vulnerable. I'm right there with you. 0:13:17.860 --> 0:13:21.220 I get it so much because I it happened to me. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.720 The problem, though, when that happens again straight off the bat, 0:13:25.750 --> 0:13:30.429 is you steal that person's opportunity to be validated for 0:13:30.429 --> 0:13:34.000 their pain, and then it becomes a competitive bidding war 0:13:34.030 --> 0:13:37.930 around who's felt worse. And the person in pain now 0:13:37.929 --> 0:13:41.130 feels like they need to support you when they don't 0:13:41.130 --> 0:13:44.280 have any capacity right now to even support themselves. 0:13:44.309 --> 0:13:45.990 I feel like this is the biggest one. 0:13:46.020 --> 0:13:49.710 It's it's a big one for sure. It's a silent 0:13:49.710 --> 0:13:57.030 connection killer because we forget that people do genuinely want 0:13:57.030 --> 0:14:00.870 that moment to be understood before we make it about 0:14:00.870 --> 0:14:04.620 someone else. Just to reiterate, as you said, Chlo, we 0:14:04.620 --> 0:14:07.380 can see ourselves in a lot of these. And it's 0:14:07.380 --> 0:14:10.950 not to shame. It's just not helpful when you're having 0:14:10.950 --> 0:14:16.200 an emotional conversation because it's most helpful for them to 0:14:16.230 --> 0:14:19.950 feel understood. Have you had instances where someone has shifted 0:14:19.950 --> 0:14:22.440 the focus away from you during your hardest times? 0:14:22.470 --> 0:14:25.350 Oh, definitely. And I think as well I can take 0:14:25.350 --> 0:14:27.540 a note out of this book too, because I think 0:14:27.570 --> 0:14:30.239 even sometimes when I'm talking to Paul about things like, 0:14:30.270 --> 0:14:32.850 I'll say something to him or he'll say something to me, 0:14:32.850 --> 0:14:36.330 and then you immediately talk about yourself or give an 0:14:36.340 --> 0:14:40.210 example of. Oh yeah, well, yesterday I wanted to get 0:14:40.210 --> 0:14:41.740 this done, but I didn't get to get it done 0:14:41.740 --> 0:14:44.050 because you were doing it and they're like, well, why 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:45.670 are you flipping this on you? I'm trying to tell 0:14:45.670 --> 0:14:48.610 you that I'm struggling with this, but now you're making 0:14:48.610 --> 0:14:51.370 me feel bad because you didn't get to do it yesterday. Yeah, yeah. 0:14:51.370 --> 0:14:52.780 We're in a comparison war. 0:14:52.810 --> 0:14:55.150 It's really difficult. And I and I think as well, 0:14:55.150 --> 0:14:58.420 for exactly the example that you just made in the 0:14:58.450 --> 0:15:03.310 miscarriage world, it's so common for people to they think 0:15:03.310 --> 0:15:06.520 that you're helping them out by telling them that you've 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.370 had a miscarriage and, and then all of a sudden 0:15:09.430 --> 0:15:11.950 the roles flipped and you're trying to help this person, 0:15:11.950 --> 0:15:14.020 but you're deep in it, and often it's actually quite 0:15:14.050 --> 0:15:17.950 triggering to I find sometimes. Yeah, don't take this the 0:15:17.950 --> 0:15:21.370 wrong way. Anyone and I don't want to sound like rude, but, 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.590 you know, I might be in these scenarios where I'm 0:15:23.590 --> 0:15:27.460 at a nightclub trying to enjoy myself. And I've had 0:15:27.460 --> 0:15:30.490 this when I've had a miscarriage previously and I've just 0:15:30.490 --> 0:15:33.700 had it. I've spoken about it on the podcast. I'm 0:15:33.700 --> 0:15:36.490 out having a good time trying to take my mind 0:15:36.490 --> 0:15:39.130 off things and some will come straight up to me. 0:15:39.220 --> 0:15:42.730 Trauma dump on you. And it's. I find I feel 0:15:42.730 --> 0:15:46.870 so selfish saying that. But that is so difficult when 0:15:46.870 --> 0:15:50.500 someone comes up to you, like this whole conversation that 0:15:50.500 --> 0:15:53.950 we're having right now. I'm kind of like shooting myself 0:15:53.950 --> 0:15:55.570 in the foot here because it's very much like, how 0:15:55.570 --> 0:15:57.220 can you talk to these people and how can you 0:15:57.220 --> 0:15:59.650 start these conversations? And that is a way that people 0:15:59.650 --> 0:16:04.450 do start these conversations. But it often upsets you even 0:16:04.450 --> 0:16:07.270 more because then you feel like you need to comfort them. 0:16:07.270 --> 0:16:11.080 And it's like this whole cycle and I struggle. I 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.480 actually struggle with that really hard. And I still struggle 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.790 with that. And I know I'm a massive advocate in 0:16:15.790 --> 0:16:19.150 the miscarriage space. I'm the member, like on the board 0:16:19.150 --> 0:16:22.720 of the Pink Elephant Support Network. And you'd think that 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.230 that I would be a poster girl for people to 0:16:26.260 --> 0:16:28.600 come up to and talk to about that, but it 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.800 actually is really, really triggering still and really upsets me 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.380 when I do have to talk about these experiences. So 0:16:35.380 --> 0:16:36.970 I don't know. I'm actually stuck in a bit of 0:16:36.970 --> 0:16:39.490 a pickle there, but I feel that in so many 0:16:39.490 --> 0:16:41.830 levels on both sides as well. 0:16:41.860 --> 0:16:44.080 Can I just like, reflect back on that? Because I 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.380 think it's a really important point. And I want to say, 0:16:47.380 --> 0:16:49.900 which is a good segue to actually mistake number three. 0:16:49.930 --> 0:16:53.230 Don't be a blind optimist. You are a role model 0:16:53.230 --> 0:16:56.200 for so many people in a similar situation. And I 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.080 don't know about you, but at least in my life, 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.080 the answer is never found in black and white. It's 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:06.730 somewhere in the middle. So using this example, we're not 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.010 like I have a charity called Heart on My sleeve 0:17:09.010 --> 0:17:12.130 that I founded. I am the biggest advocate for people 0:17:12.130 --> 0:17:15.310 speaking up when they're not okay. But just like you, 0:17:15.340 --> 0:17:18.760 when I'm out getting coffee every morning or when I'm 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.520 just finished a massive keynote talk and walk off stage 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:23.590 in front of a thousand people where I've just told 0:17:23.590 --> 0:17:26.439 my demons, I have a line of people that are 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.780 waiting to come up to me and tell me their 0:17:28.780 --> 0:17:33.389 most traumatic moments. So you might say, well, you hypocrite, 0:17:33.390 --> 0:17:35.730 you started a charity and now I'm doing the thing 0:17:35.730 --> 0:17:39.990 you've asked me to do. Yes. With context though, right? 0:17:39.990 --> 0:17:42.060 We have to put a reasonable layer on some of 0:17:42.060 --> 0:17:45.420 this stuff. We don't want to swing too far either way. 0:17:45.420 --> 0:17:49.500 If everyone's talking vulnerably with no safety constraints at any 0:17:49.500 --> 0:17:53.219 point in time to anyone, in any environment, that's not good. 0:17:53.250 --> 0:17:56.190 But we also don't want people to walk around rigid 0:17:56.190 --> 0:18:00.720 and in silence either. We're looking for people to get 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:05.609 conscious around how to have conversations that are helpful. Again, 0:18:05.609 --> 0:18:07.950 the reason why I'm passionate about this work that I'm 0:18:07.950 --> 0:18:11.760 doing is it gives you the nuances to make sure 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.570 it's helpful and not hindering. Yeah, that person at the 0:18:15.570 --> 0:18:18.990 right time coming to you when you're in the headspace 0:18:18.990 --> 0:18:22.260 to be able to hold that space. What an incredible 0:18:22.260 --> 0:18:25.109 connection you guys would have had. But it's on them 0:18:25.109 --> 0:18:29.430 to also be conscientious of where you're at, too. Yes. 0:18:29.700 --> 0:18:34.210 Nailed it. It's hard. It's so hard to find that 0:18:34.210 --> 0:18:37.630 sweet spot and exactly what you just said. I am 0:18:37.630 --> 0:18:40.600 not great at it either. And I'm learning. And I 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:42.880 feel like that this podcast has been such a great 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.209 platform for myself and Elody to learn too, because there's 0:18:46.210 --> 0:18:48.910 so much that we go through and there's so much 0:18:48.910 --> 0:18:51.129 that we put out there and we try and help 0:18:51.130 --> 0:18:54.910 so many people, but often we're actually making the mistakes 0:18:54.910 --> 0:18:58.180 first to come and bring it out to you guys 0:18:58.180 --> 0:19:01.990 to find answers and solutions to better help not just us, but, well, 0:19:02.020 --> 0:19:04.900 not just you guys, but actually ourselves. 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.500 Correct. I think the best type of expert is an explorer, 0:19:08.530 --> 0:19:11.860 not an authority figure. You know, it's someone who's like, 0:19:11.859 --> 0:19:14.560 I'm fucking rolling around here figuring it out as I go. 0:19:14.590 --> 0:19:18.730 You're welcome to come along versus I have all the answers, 0:19:18.730 --> 0:19:21.730 even the things I'm talking about. Now. This is stuff 0:19:21.730 --> 0:19:24.639 I've learned in my own life. I've then validated in research, 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:26.770 and I try and do my best every day. Totally. 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.160 But perfection is not the way to go. 0:19:29.190 --> 0:19:30.930 I love that even in the lead up to this chat, 0:19:30.930 --> 0:19:33.960 I'm like, oh my God, I'm so nervous. Like every chat, 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.270 I get so nervous. And you know, some people I've 0:19:36.270 --> 0:19:38.430 they've written reviews. A few people have come like, you 0:19:38.430 --> 0:19:41.100 guys are shit podcasters. And I'm like, oh my God, 0:19:41.100 --> 0:19:43.980 I am not a professional speaker. I am not really 0:19:43.980 --> 0:19:47.010 a public speaker. I'm just getting on here and I'm 0:19:47.010 --> 0:19:50.129 doing my best. I'm trying to ask the questions that 0:19:50.130 --> 0:19:51.719 I want to know, and that you guys are going 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.870 to get helpful. And we don't have to be perfect. Like, 0:19:54.869 --> 0:19:57.480 let's get on there. Let's get on here and make 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.900 a mess of this because no one is perfect. And 0:20:00.900 --> 0:20:03.000 if you were perfect, it would actually probably be pretty 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:04.230 boring to listen to. 0:20:04.260 --> 0:20:07.830 Amen. And I think that's such a good metaphor for 0:20:07.859 --> 0:20:10.710 having these real conversations. Let's get in there and make 0:20:10.710 --> 0:20:13.260 a mess of it. I couldn't have said it better myself. 0:20:13.590 --> 0:20:16.380 Where things go wrong is where you come into these 0:20:16.380 --> 0:20:19.379 scenarios thinking that you need to solve it. For someone 0:20:19.410 --> 0:20:22.109 thinking that the grief of a miscarriage is now on 0:20:22.140 --> 0:20:25.860 you as a supporter to extract from their soul. Of course, 0:20:25.859 --> 0:20:29.450 that's an overwhelming and impossible task if it's framed like that. 0:20:29.450 --> 0:20:32.419 But really all people are asking you to do is 0:20:32.420 --> 0:20:34.160 to sit in the mess with them for a little 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:38.119 bit so that they feel like they're going through it together. 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.090 We can get through anything so long as we go 0:20:41.090 --> 0:20:44.750 through it together. They're looking for your ear, not your advice. 0:20:44.780 --> 0:20:45.470 Yes. 0:20:45.470 --> 0:20:49.760 So mistake three is what we call the blind optimist, 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:54.320 where we overly sugarcoat it and silver line it to 0:20:54.350 --> 0:21:00.140 avoid going toward the hard, dark, uncomfortable truth. And you 0:21:00.140 --> 0:21:02.689 know that you're you know, you're a magician if you 0:21:02.690 --> 0:21:04.970 say should or shouldn't too much, you know you're a 0:21:04.970 --> 0:21:07.250 thief if you say same or me too, too much. 0:21:07.250 --> 0:21:09.560 And you know that you're a blind optimist if you 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.770 say at least so a textbook one. 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:13.460 At least a. 0:21:13.460 --> 0:21:18.080 Textbook one in your space is at least you know 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.260 you can get pregnant. Yes. And isn't that a dagger 0:21:21.260 --> 0:21:23.720 to the heart when you're like, I just lost a 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.910 fucking life. Stop trying to tell me to see the 0:21:26.910 --> 0:21:29.129 fucking bright side. Fuck. 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:33.180 You are just all over this chat, I swear to God. You, like, 0:21:33.210 --> 0:21:36.420 take the words straight out of my mouth. Like everything 0:21:36.420 --> 0:21:40.800 that you're saying, it's like, aha! Yes. The words at 0:21:40.830 --> 0:21:44.100 least are so bad. I mean, it's not. It doesn't 0:21:44.100 --> 0:21:47.340 even relate to miscarriage. Yes, it absolutely sucks. That one 0:21:47.340 --> 0:21:50.280 sentence is probably the worst sentence you can say to 0:21:50.310 --> 0:21:55.859 anyone when they've gone through a miscarriage, but in Lee's case, 0:21:55.859 --> 0:21:58.710 for example, she's lost the love of her life and 0:21:58.710 --> 0:22:02.670 she was able to retrieve Champy's sperm. And then someone's like, 0:22:02.700 --> 0:22:04.320 you know, at least you got mini out of it. 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.170 It's like, no, no, no, no, I lost the love 0:22:07.170 --> 0:22:10.230 of my life, I love Minnie. Minnie is the best 0:22:10.230 --> 0:22:13.890 thing that's ever happened to me. But I would take my, my, 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.200 the love of my life back at any point. So, like, 0:22:16.230 --> 0:22:19.440 just don't ever let those words come out of your 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.320 mouth in any situation. I just think that they need 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.850 to be removed from the dictionary because they actually make 0:22:25.850 --> 0:22:29.750 you feel much, much, much worse. They're never good. They're 0:22:29.750 --> 0:22:35.930 never good. I don't think we've here, I mean. 0:22:42.500 --> 0:22:44.840 Here's a real clue. I don't know if this resonates 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:46.460 with you, but I try and live by it. And 0:22:46.460 --> 0:22:50.090 that's I will only ever help someone see the bright side. 0:22:50.090 --> 0:22:53.000 When I've earned the right first by sitting with them 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:56.840 in the darkness. Yes. So unless I fully fucking know 0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:01.280 their pain, unless I have gone to extreme lengths to 0:23:01.310 --> 0:23:03.680 meet them where they are, I'm not going to tell 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.830 them where they should be. Again, not putting a black 0:23:06.830 --> 0:23:09.170 and white approach here, looking at the grey because life 0:23:09.170 --> 0:23:13.760 is grey. That doesn't mean that you should or can 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:18.860 never prompt people to see different perspectives in life. But 0:23:18.859 --> 0:23:23.040 it does mean when you contrast what could be against 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:26.670 the direct pain that they need to grieve and feel. 0:23:26.700 --> 0:23:29.340 You're going to get them to deny and avoid their 0:23:29.340 --> 0:23:32.160 own pain if you just keep getting them to go 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:35.639 elsewhere internally. Coming back to your original point, when we 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:39.840 started this pod, it's not about you getting them to 0:23:39.869 --> 0:23:42.690 see the bright side is often not for them. It's 0:23:42.690 --> 0:23:44.550 that you don't want to sit in the mud right now. 0:23:44.550 --> 0:23:47.310 It's fucking awkward hanging around in this negativity. Let's change 0:23:47.310 --> 0:23:49.530 the vibe. So let's look at all this stuff and 0:23:49.530 --> 0:23:52.500 it's like, no, as a supporter, that's your shit. I'm 0:23:52.500 --> 0:23:55.440 actually okay here. I need to be here right now, 0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:59.399 in Elodie's case, remembering my the love of my life. 0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.680 But if you don't want to be in this, then 0:24:01.710 --> 0:24:03.240 you can go elsewhere. 0:24:03.510 --> 0:24:05.580 I think as well. That's like a really good point. 0:24:05.580 --> 0:24:07.800 And I was thinking about that and it might come 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:10.380 across as quite selfish, but you know, everyone's going through 0:24:10.410 --> 0:24:13.710 shit at different times in their life. The shit pile 0:24:13.710 --> 0:24:17.610 is bigger and sometimes the shit pile is not so big. 0:24:17.609 --> 0:24:21.320 But you know, if your head deep in shit, for example, 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.650 and your friend is also head deep in shit. It's 0:24:24.650 --> 0:24:27.709 quite hard for yourself to be like, how can I 0:24:27.740 --> 0:24:31.550 give myself to that person when I'm actually really, really 0:24:31.550 --> 0:24:35.840 struggling myself? Because often you do have to peel back 0:24:35.869 --> 0:24:38.300 the like the layers of the onion with them, and 0:24:38.300 --> 0:24:40.100 you have to sit in their shit and you have 0:24:40.100 --> 0:24:42.649 to go through it with them. But sometimes you don't 0:24:42.650 --> 0:24:46.280 want to make that move because you're like, where do 0:24:46.280 --> 0:24:49.580 I even find the capacity to help them when I'm 0:24:49.580 --> 0:24:53.030 really struggling to help myself? And I mean, for us, 0:24:53.030 --> 0:24:55.280 for L and I, often we it's a bit of 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:58.220 a clusterfuck all over and we're all we're both going through. 0:24:58.250 --> 0:25:00.379 We I mean, we're pretty good at that where we 0:25:00.380 --> 0:25:04.340 just sit in each other's, like, craziness. Like we're like, 0:25:04.369 --> 0:25:06.830 oh my God, if we only had a TV show 0:25:06.859 --> 0:25:10.220 on this, it would be like a number one viewed 0:25:10.220 --> 0:25:12.920 show because there's just so much shit going on constantly. 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:16.580 But I find that really hard. And we're probably I've 0:25:16.580 --> 0:25:18.620 probably taken a bit of a left turn here, but 0:25:18.660 --> 0:25:22.710 I think that that is like probably a reason why 0:25:22.740 --> 0:25:26.010 people don't sit in other people's shit because they're going 0:25:26.010 --> 0:25:28.590 through their own. Is that do you think that that's true? 0:25:28.619 --> 0:25:31.230 100%. You know, you said the word capacity. It's a 0:25:31.230 --> 0:25:34.560 really good word in that, in that instance. So it's 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:37.050 just being honest in those moments. I think with people 0:25:37.050 --> 0:25:39.719 when it's really hard and you're like, right now I 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:43.080 can't get right down into the pit because I'll lose 0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:45.690 my footing to, are you okay? If you're patient with 0:25:45.690 --> 0:25:48.360 me as I go on a process of supporting you, 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:50.729 and I'm going to be trying my best to to 0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:53.310 understand with the capacity that I have right now. 0:25:53.340 --> 0:25:55.170 Yeah, it's a hard one. 0:25:55.170 --> 0:25:58.860 It is a hard one. Which leads us to number four, 0:25:58.890 --> 0:26:04.260 the helicopter. The helicopter freaks out or freezes up when 0:26:04.260 --> 0:26:08.190 someone brings them any type of emotional distress and kind 0:26:08.190 --> 0:26:13.710 of loses themself in that person. Often correlated with an anxious, 0:26:13.710 --> 0:26:17.159 preoccupied attachment style, which a lot of people have. And 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:19.280 there's no shame in that. You don't. You didn't get 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:22.310 a choice over it. It's from our parents anyway. Um, 0:26:22.310 --> 0:26:27.740 and it's hardest when we care the most. So, parent 0:26:27.770 --> 0:26:30.590 to child, when your child is not okay and they 0:26:30.590 --> 0:26:35.869 bring you some pain, you almost don't separate that as theirs. 0:26:35.869 --> 0:26:40.490 It's now ours. And, um, but there is a reason 0:26:40.490 --> 0:26:45.290 why yin and yang are separate but together. An adult 0:26:45.290 --> 0:26:49.760 always needs to remain in their sovereignty in order for 0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:51.920 other people to be able to hang on to them 0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:56.150 as a stable object. Emotions are scientifically proven to be 0:26:56.150 --> 0:27:01.460 contagious up to like three degrees of separation. So if 0:27:01.490 --> 0:27:05.659 you imagine when someone's presenting their heart to you and 0:27:05.660 --> 0:27:10.399 it's ripped apart, you, you're standing there with a glass 0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:14.060 of water and a glass of gasoline. Like choose wisely. 0:27:14.330 --> 0:27:18.480 You can add to the contagion of pain by becoming 0:27:18.480 --> 0:27:21.660 a tornado of their pain and not staying in that 0:27:21.660 --> 0:27:25.800 really anchored position. Now people mishear me on this one 0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:28.500 and they think, what? So I just have to be 0:27:28.500 --> 0:27:31.050 strong all the time. And the answer is absolutely fucking 0:27:31.050 --> 0:27:36.420 not again. I created a charity of being vulnerable. But 0:27:36.450 --> 0:27:41.400 if you want to be helpful in that conversation as 0:27:41.400 --> 0:27:45.869 a supporter while you're wearing that hat in that moment, yes, 0:27:45.869 --> 0:27:48.960 you need to fucking anchor down. If that's what you 0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:51.780 want to be is helpful. You need to find something 0:27:51.780 --> 0:27:54.659 in you that you can stay stable on so that 0:27:54.660 --> 0:27:56.850 other people can come to shore using you as a 0:27:56.850 --> 0:28:00.420 life raft. Then if five minutes after that conversation ends, 0:28:00.420 --> 0:28:04.950 you need to fall apart. Fall apart? This whole system 0:28:04.950 --> 0:28:07.530 is just a series of dominoes where we're falling apart 0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:11.159 on each other. But like, you know, you travel a 0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:14.929 lot with with what you and Paul do and the 0:28:14.930 --> 0:28:17.750 lifestyle you lead. I don't know about you, but when 0:28:17.780 --> 0:28:21.440 the when the planes got turbulence, I look to the 0:28:21.440 --> 0:28:24.320 flight attendant to see if they're relaxed or not. That's 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:27.619 how I know whether I should be scared. Mhm. Is 0:28:27.650 --> 0:28:31.040 like what's their reaction? Humans are doing that all day, 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:33.649 every day with their emotions. They're like, I'm feeling anxious. 0:28:33.650 --> 0:28:36.080 Should I be feeling anxious? I'm going to check the 0:28:36.080 --> 0:28:39.590 emotional regulation of everyone else. So one of the greatest 0:28:39.590 --> 0:28:42.110 gifts you can give to other people you're trying to 0:28:42.110 --> 0:28:46.460 support is work on your own shit so that the 0:28:46.490 --> 0:28:50.719 washing machine is relatively clean, by no means perfect or fixed, 0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:54.410 but relatively clean, so that when they bring you dirty laundry, 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:56.540 you don't give them dirty clothes back. 0:28:56.660 --> 0:29:00.020 I'm loving the analogies. It's so it's. Yeah, we love 0:29:00.020 --> 0:29:04.460 a metaphor. It's so it's so, so true. And as 0:29:04.460 --> 0:29:07.280 well for on the other hand, I when I was 0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:10.550 just recently in hospital trying to ask for help to 0:29:10.580 --> 0:29:13.060 it's like, actually let me get you, let me, let 0:29:13.060 --> 0:29:15.700 me get let you get the last. The last tip out. 0:29:15.730 --> 0:29:17.020 Last one. Let me get the last one out. And 0:29:17.020 --> 0:29:18.310 then I'm going to flip it. I'm going to flip 0:29:18.310 --> 0:29:19.570 the conversation. Yeah. 0:29:19.600 --> 0:29:24.910 So last one is the ostrich. The ostrich is kind 0:29:24.910 --> 0:29:28.090 of the opposite of the helicopter. The. Oh no, it's 0:29:28.090 --> 0:29:31.270 the I'm going to pretend that I didn't even see that. 0:29:31.300 --> 0:29:36.490 I assume that person's not okay. But this isn't my bag. 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:38.710 You know, this isn't my jam. The whole emotional thing. 0:29:38.710 --> 0:29:42.880 It's usually from a dismissive attachment style. Again, no shame 0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:46.270 in that we probably weren't modeled healthy vulnerability as a child, 0:29:46.270 --> 0:29:49.150 if that's the way we're operating as an adult. And 0:29:49.180 --> 0:29:53.590 ostriches usually doubt their own ability to be helpful in 0:29:53.590 --> 0:29:59.560 those moments, or they're phobic and petrified of feeling any 0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:03.730 type of awkwardness. Now, the reality is, you got to 0:30:03.730 --> 0:30:07.780 get better at sitting in uncomfortable shit and feeling awkward. 0:30:07.780 --> 0:30:11.050 If you want to be a human being that is 0:30:11.060 --> 0:30:14.720 in any way, shape or form emotionally helpful and supportive, 0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:20.240 and that the first sign of tension or when someone's crying. 0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:23.810 For example, when I did my master's degree, I was 0:30:23.810 --> 0:30:27.380 so fascinated to learn that the worst thing you can 0:30:27.380 --> 0:30:31.250 do when someone's crying other than like, you know, be 0:30:31.250 --> 0:30:35.480 abusive is hand them a tissue. Because what it signals 0:30:35.510 --> 0:30:39.830 is clean yourself up and hurry up. So the best 0:30:39.830 --> 0:30:44.150 tissue in the world is three words take your time 0:30:44.150 --> 0:30:48.740 and then shut up. Then just stop. Do less. Let 0:30:48.740 --> 0:30:52.400 them paint the walls with their pain. Because crying is 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:56.540 the nervous system's way of purging. It's trying to heal 0:30:56.540 --> 0:30:58.640 and you're trying to stop the healing. 0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:00.080 I just got goosebumps. 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:02.270 And I'm going to link it back to your beautiful 0:31:02.270 --> 0:31:04.790 comment at the start. It's not about you. That tissue 0:31:04.790 --> 0:31:08.810 is about the supporter. I'm uncomfortable. I need a prop. 0:31:08.890 --> 0:31:14.230 Now lean in, say take your time and then be 0:31:14.230 --> 0:31:17.020 in what it is to be human. Which is it's 0:31:17.020 --> 0:31:19.150 fucking shit right now. Mhm. 0:31:20.260 --> 0:31:23.050 And even if you just sit and say nothing. Is 0:31:23.050 --> 0:31:24.100 that helping? 0:31:24.250 --> 0:31:29.110 Abso fucking lutely. It is like there's so much I 0:31:29.110 --> 0:31:31.150 posted about this on Instagram the other day. I was like, 0:31:31.150 --> 0:31:35.050 when did care become negligent? And what I mean by 0:31:35.050 --> 0:31:37.540 that is in so many conversations, we walk away and 0:31:37.540 --> 0:31:39.820 we're like, I wish I could have helped. I had 0:31:39.820 --> 0:31:43.150 no advice to give. And I was like, but you 0:31:43.150 --> 0:31:47.200 loved them just then, right? You loved them hard. And 0:31:47.200 --> 0:31:49.390 you got in there and you listened and you tried 0:31:49.390 --> 0:31:53.230 to understand them. That was your only job. If you're 0:31:53.230 --> 0:31:57.490 having a real conversation, you must get better at leaving 0:31:57.490 --> 0:32:02.920 that conversation knowing that you scored 100% success. And the 0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:07.840 problem is still 100% the same if that person feels 0:32:07.850 --> 0:32:12.920 totally fucking heard and supported. Yeah. So the equivalent in 0:32:12.920 --> 0:32:15.290 the grief, just to round out that analogy that we've 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:18.620 kind of flushed through all the mistakes, um, a helicopter 0:32:18.620 --> 0:32:21.200 in the grief is like, well, I don't even know 0:32:21.200 --> 0:32:22.910 how you're dealing with this right now. I would be 0:32:22.910 --> 0:32:27.800 such a mess. And you and the ostrich would cross 0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:29.750 the other side of the road when they saw you 0:32:29.780 --> 0:32:33.080 walking toward them, because they wouldn't even know how to 0:32:33.110 --> 0:32:39.200 ask about your miscarriage. So this is the best summary 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:41.390 of everything we've spoken about on how to make the 0:32:41.390 --> 0:32:49.220 transition toward a real conversationalist. The single most helpful thing 0:32:49.280 --> 0:32:53.840 you can do with someone experiencing grief is to say, 0:32:53.840 --> 0:32:57.410 what do you miss about that person the most? Um, 0:32:57.440 --> 0:33:01.490 or if they're not earthside say, what does this loss 0:33:01.490 --> 0:33:07.210 mean and represent to you? I.e., you go Directly toward 0:33:07.210 --> 0:33:10.510 the eye of the storm. That's so scary. Is there 0:33:10.510 --> 0:33:11.890 that we get better. 0:33:11.980 --> 0:33:15.280 Even you just saying that just then. I'm just thinking. Shit, 0:33:15.310 --> 0:33:17.410 how do you even. How do you even do that? 0:33:17.410 --> 0:33:21.100 That's such a scary thought to to go straight towards 0:33:21.100 --> 0:33:22.600 the eye of the storm of the problem. 0:33:23.380 --> 0:33:25.480 It is. Huh? It is. 0:33:25.480 --> 0:33:30.400 So in like context of talking miscarriage. I've just had 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:33.220 a miscarriage. What? What? And you've just found out. What 0:33:33.220 --> 0:33:34.600 are you going to what? How are you going to 0:33:34.630 --> 0:33:35.650 approach this? 0:33:35.920 --> 0:33:39.070 So. So some of your listeners right now might be thinking, 0:33:39.070 --> 0:33:42.340 God right after a miscarriage, saying, what does that represent 0:33:42.340 --> 0:33:45.340 to you might be too hard, and you should use 0:33:45.340 --> 0:33:49.450 your own discretion and put relationship context, you know, into 0:33:49.450 --> 0:33:54.040 the mix here. But a principle that might help guide 0:33:54.040 --> 0:33:58.750 your sequencing is the bigger the bomb, the bigger the 0:33:58.750 --> 0:34:03.370 paddock it needs to explode. So what I mean by 0:34:03.370 --> 0:34:06.890 that is like the the heaviest something is, the less 0:34:06.890 --> 0:34:09.620 you should try and fix it or even be involved 0:34:09.620 --> 0:34:13.640 verbally or like brainstorming it out or any of that shit. 0:34:13.670 --> 0:34:16.310 Like I had a friend the other day just tell 0:34:16.340 --> 0:34:21.500 me that they have been diagnosed with cancer. Nothing I 0:34:21.500 --> 0:34:24.739 can say next is going to make that better. I 0:34:24.739 --> 0:34:28.250 just hugged them and I just breathed and we sat 0:34:28.250 --> 0:34:31.460 there for a few minutes, just in silence. And that 0:34:31.460 --> 0:34:35.330 silence was doing so much heavy lifting. We didn't get 0:34:35.330 --> 0:34:36.979 to do it at the top of this segment, but 0:34:36.980 --> 0:34:40.400 usually you start this with a shine and a shit, right? 0:34:40.790 --> 0:34:44.960 I think that's the name of the segment. And my dad. 0:34:44.989 --> 0:34:47.930 I just got home from America to to my dad 0:34:47.960 --> 0:34:54.080 being hospitalized for suicidal ideation last Sunday. And that's a 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:56.270 lot for, you know, it's the first time this has 0:34:56.270 --> 0:34:59.210 ever happened. And I went in to the clinic and 0:34:59.210 --> 0:35:00.800 I saw him and he looked me in the eyes 0:35:00.800 --> 0:35:02.930 and said, the only reason I'm not taking my own 0:35:02.930 --> 0:35:07.750 life is because of you. That is awesome. As a son, 0:35:07.750 --> 0:35:11.290 that is the shine. But it's also shit to have 0:35:11.290 --> 0:35:15.520 your hero at his knees wanting to take that away 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:19.180 from them. But I knew that all I could do 0:35:19.180 --> 0:35:22.090 is just sit there with him. There is a time 0:35:22.090 --> 0:35:24.580 and a place for us to talk about medication change 0:35:24.580 --> 0:35:26.620 and his sleep apnea, and the effect that that's having 0:35:26.620 --> 0:35:29.830 on his ability to self-regulate and all this other shit. 0:35:29.830 --> 0:35:33.040 But in that moment, he just needed to know I 0:35:33.040 --> 0:35:34.899 love him. And I held his hands and I looked 0:35:34.900 --> 0:35:37.060 him in the eye and said, I love you, and 0:35:37.060 --> 0:35:41.890 just stopped. And there was a turning point in his 0:35:41.890 --> 0:35:45.550 eyes there. He knew I had his back. He trusted that. 0:35:45.550 --> 0:35:47.290 I know he's going to get through this and will 0:35:47.290 --> 0:35:49.479 work out the details later, but that was a big 0:35:49.480 --> 0:35:51.850 bomb and I'm going to let that land. So if 0:35:51.850 --> 0:35:54.520 someone's just had a miscarriage, you might not go straight 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:57.009 to what did that represent. But I'm sure if someone 0:35:57.010 --> 0:36:00.219 like Elodie said that to you, even the day of. 0:36:00.250 --> 0:36:02.690 What does this mean to you, Chlo? What's the hardest part? 0:36:02.719 --> 0:36:06.500 Right now, someone that safe. It's actually probably relieving to 0:36:06.530 --> 0:36:10.640 put some of that really, really deep emotional baggage somewhere else. 0:36:10.670 --> 0:36:11.090 Mhm. 0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:16.069 Yeah. Totally. And I there, there is like I guess 0:36:16.070 --> 0:36:18.800 like we've just gone kind of gone through and firstly 0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:21.650 I'm actually really sorry to hear about your dad. Um, 0:36:21.650 --> 0:36:23.720 and that's probably the wrong thing to say. 0:36:24.110 --> 0:36:26.960 No I don't want you to be petrified now to 0:36:26.989 --> 0:36:31.190 say the wrong thing either. The care translated right. And 0:36:31.190 --> 0:36:34.190 I think what a perfect thing for us to, to 0:36:34.219 --> 0:36:38.120 to dance on right now. After all that, it really 0:36:38.120 --> 0:36:41.030 doesn't matter what you say, so long as you just 0:36:41.030 --> 0:36:45.950 deeply fucking care. And you just you acknowledged it. First 0:36:45.950 --> 0:36:47.420 of all, you're not going to be like, at least 0:36:47.420 --> 0:36:50.359 he's in getting treatment or. Yeah, you just went there. 0:36:50.360 --> 0:36:53.089 I'm sorry for the pain. You acknowledge the pain and 0:36:53.090 --> 0:36:54.230 that's all that matters. 0:36:54.260 --> 0:36:57.169 And I think as well, with you saying that with 0:36:57.170 --> 0:36:59.000 what Elody is saying, what does this mean to you 0:36:59.000 --> 0:37:02.020 and exactly it needs to be context like in context 0:37:02.050 --> 0:37:05.080 with the person and how deep, how well you know them. 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:08.500 But I think that that question as well, if that 0:37:08.500 --> 0:37:12.730 was being asked to me, that's actually really touching, because 0:37:12.730 --> 0:37:15.730 you then get to talk about your experience and, you know, 0:37:15.760 --> 0:37:18.370 what does this mean to you? It's like that baby 0:37:18.370 --> 0:37:20.859 meant everything to me. I've worked so hard, and it 0:37:20.860 --> 0:37:25.360 really triggers that conversation for the person who's suffering to 0:37:25.390 --> 0:37:28.660 be able to share as little or as as much 0:37:28.660 --> 0:37:30.489 as they would like. And that's what I love about 0:37:30.489 --> 0:37:34.120 this podcast. We get in here and it's almost therapeutic. 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:37.270 And do you get up there and everything that you've 0:37:37.270 --> 0:37:40.239 been through, do you find it therapeutic to talk about things? 0:37:40.270 --> 0:37:42.910 Yeah for sure. I mean, this space gives back more 0:37:42.940 --> 0:37:46.000 than it takes, but it's a lot, right. And I yeah, 0:37:46.030 --> 0:37:53.110 I've had to build incredibly, um, present boundaries, knowing how 0:37:53.110 --> 0:37:55.570 far to lean in and when to to lean out, 0:37:55.570 --> 0:37:58.950 as I'm sure you have to navigating your journey now 0:37:58.950 --> 0:38:02.220 as a mama and a podcaster and a wife and 0:38:02.219 --> 0:38:03.870 all the other hats that you wear. 0:38:03.900 --> 0:38:08.040 Yeah, we've spoken a lot in this chat about helping 0:38:08.040 --> 0:38:10.650 others go through their struggles and how to kind of 0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:13.410 dive deeper into those conversations, but I want to kind 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:15.629 of put the shoe on the other foot. And yeah, 0:38:15.660 --> 0:38:20.310 as an example, I've just had a baby. Obviously, it's 0:38:20.310 --> 0:38:23.520 something that I've wanted for my whole life. We've tried 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:27.330 for five years, and I went through a fairly traumatic 0:38:27.330 --> 0:38:30.300 experience post birth with a lot of blood loss, and 0:38:30.450 --> 0:38:35.310 I remember getting back to my hospital room after being 0:38:35.310 --> 0:38:38.250 released from ICU and getting in there with Paul and 0:38:38.280 --> 0:38:41.790 like looking at my baby and just literally bawling my 0:38:41.790 --> 0:38:44.550 eyes out. Like it actually makes me like teary thinking 0:38:44.550 --> 0:38:51.180 about it. And I spent like the first week of post-birth, 0:38:51.210 --> 0:38:55.200 swear to God, like crying and crying and crying and crying. 0:38:55.200 --> 0:38:57.219 And I would speak to people on the phone and 0:38:57.219 --> 0:39:00.700 family and friends, and I would be like, oh my God, 0:39:00.700 --> 0:39:02.860 I am so obsessed with my baby. She's the best 0:39:02.860 --> 0:39:05.560 thing in the world. But I literally cannot stop crying. 0:39:05.560 --> 0:39:09.400 And I think, obviously there's this whole massive hormonal shift 0:39:09.400 --> 0:39:14.980 that women go through post-birth. But I felt like this weird. 0:39:15.219 --> 0:39:18.190 In my mind. I was just thinking, this is all 0:39:18.190 --> 0:39:21.940 you've ever wanted. Like, you should be so freaking happy 0:39:21.940 --> 0:39:25.030 right now. Why am I so sad? Like, why can't 0:39:25.030 --> 0:39:28.240 I stop crying? And you know, everyone wants to help. 0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:31.000 And everyone was there to put their hand out and say, 0:39:31.030 --> 0:39:33.640 you know, let's talk about this. But from my point 0:39:33.640 --> 0:39:36.100 of view, I was like, yes, I knew I needed 0:39:36.100 --> 0:39:38.080 to speak about it, and yes, I knew I needed 0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:42.669 to get help. But when you're in that moment, you're like, 0:39:42.670 --> 0:39:46.960 I couldn't fucking think of anything worse than having to 0:39:46.989 --> 0:39:49.930 deal with other people right now when you're so deep 0:39:49.930 --> 0:39:52.240 in that yourself. I don't know if that makes any 0:39:52.239 --> 0:39:54.130 sense at all, but I guess it was. 0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:54.640 Like a ton of. 0:39:54.640 --> 0:39:56.580 Sense. I guess it was like I was going through 0:39:56.580 --> 0:39:58.530 a bit of a bout of baby blues, and I 0:39:58.530 --> 0:40:03.330 completely empathise with people that suffer from postnatal depression, because 0:40:03.540 --> 0:40:06.480 I never really understood it when I didn't have a baby, 0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:11.250 because I was always like, you've got the baby. So like, 0:40:11.250 --> 0:40:14.670 how could you have depression? Or how could you be 0:40:14.670 --> 0:40:18.150 sad when you've got this miracle? And it fricking happened 0:40:18.150 --> 0:40:21.780 to me and you know it. I even said to Elody, 0:40:21.780 --> 0:40:24.090 I was like, I think I'm depressed. Like, I think 0:40:24.090 --> 0:40:27.750 I'm actually depressed. I'm going through this. I don't I 0:40:27.750 --> 0:40:31.290 actually don't know what's wrong with me. Um, and I 0:40:31.290 --> 0:40:34.350 think from understanding, when I put out saying that I 0:40:34.350 --> 0:40:36.030 was going to talk to you and, and I was 0:40:36.030 --> 0:40:38.819 saying to people, have you got any questions in the 0:40:38.820 --> 0:40:45.029 mental health space? And I am so sad looking at 0:40:45.030 --> 0:40:48.930 how many women have come to me to ask questions 0:40:48.930 --> 0:40:53.130 about postnatal. Not even it's not actually the person trying 0:40:53.160 --> 0:40:55.780 to what we've just spoken about trying to help someone 0:40:55.780 --> 0:40:58.750 with postnatal depression or baby blues or any of that. 0:40:58.780 --> 0:41:03.729 It's actually women asking, how the fuck do I help myself? 0:41:03.850 --> 0:41:06.220 And like, can we talk about this? 0:41:06.310 --> 0:41:09.160 Well, first of all, what came up for me as 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:13.150 you were sharing that experience was when you said, crying, crying, crying. 0:41:13.150 --> 0:41:15.460 I heard grieving, grieving, grieving. 0:41:15.610 --> 0:41:15.850 Mhm. 0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:23.500 I heard your nervous system crying out with relief that 0:41:23.500 --> 0:41:28.300 this fear, this battle, this nightmare is over. Right. When 0:41:28.450 --> 0:41:31.870 my friends and Olympian and I said, what emotion occurred 0:41:31.870 --> 0:41:33.970 when you crossed the line and you won gold. And 0:41:33.969 --> 0:41:36.760 I was expecting it was to be like ecstasy, joy, elation. 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:40.360 And it was relief. It was the removal of negative, 0:41:40.390 --> 0:41:45.310 not the presence of positive that shone brightly in that moment. Right. 0:41:45.310 --> 0:41:49.089 So what? Before your body and your brain and your 0:41:49.090 --> 0:41:53.939 heart can be happy, it first needs to celebrate the 0:41:53.940 --> 0:41:58.320 pain that's been removed. So what? That those tears were 0:41:58.350 --> 0:42:02.130 was like a someone winning Olympics. This is my whole 0:42:02.130 --> 0:42:05.640 life has been geared. The sacrifice that you did with the, 0:42:05.670 --> 0:42:08.160 you know, leading up to that, the hormones, the tension 0:42:08.160 --> 0:42:11.040 that put on the relationship with Paul, I imagine, and 0:42:11.040 --> 0:42:14.910 your family and your career planning and your future and 0:42:14.940 --> 0:42:18.210 all that shit culminates when you hold this child and 0:42:18.210 --> 0:42:21.000 you say, finally, I am blessed with this miracle, and 0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:24.840 it was worth it. But there's still so many parts inside, 0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:29.880 you know, that were holding the fucking tent together with 0:42:29.910 --> 0:42:34.740 fucking elastic bands and band aids, whilst you had to 0:42:34.770 --> 0:42:37.109 go and be an adult and deliver this baby. And 0:42:37.110 --> 0:42:39.450 it's like, okay, now we can fall apart. 0:42:39.480 --> 0:42:41.820 Yeah. And I think that's just that it being an 0:42:41.820 --> 0:42:43.860 adult and delivering this baby, and then all of a 0:42:43.860 --> 0:42:49.050 sudden you're just so broken and so like exactly what 0:42:49.050 --> 0:42:51.220 you just said. Relieved. But then you're like trying to 0:42:51.250 --> 0:42:55.720 care for this newborn. But there's still so much going on, 0:42:55.719 --> 0:42:58.420 and I think I even am getting teary talking to 0:42:58.420 --> 0:43:00.640 you about it because, like, it's bringing back so many emotions, 0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:03.879 just going, why was I like that? And I still 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:07.900 it must be that I still have so much underlying 0:43:07.900 --> 0:43:12.879 grief from the miscarriages and from like, I don't know, 0:43:12.910 --> 0:43:16.120 I just just like exactly what we were just saying, 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:17.799 how it's like created a bit of a mess. And 0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:20.500 I think that like, it's this whole conversation is like 0:43:20.530 --> 0:43:23.319 muddled my waters a little bit because I'm like, fuck, 0:43:23.350 --> 0:43:25.600 I have really just like pushed this all down and 0:43:25.600 --> 0:43:28.390 you don't really have time to, like, let this stuff surface. 0:43:28.390 --> 0:43:31.150 As a mother, when you are caring for a newborn 0:43:31.150 --> 0:43:33.580 because it really is full time. But you do have 0:43:33.580 --> 0:43:36.100 these moments in these conversations and like what I'm having 0:43:36.100 --> 0:43:39.009 with you right now, just going, nah, fuck. I have 0:43:39.010 --> 0:43:42.400 gone through a lot, actually. And you have. There's so 0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:45.310 much still. And do you think it's important for people 0:43:45.310 --> 0:43:48.100 like myself or not even just people that haven't gone 0:43:48.100 --> 0:43:50.700 through a lot? Do you think that it's important to 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:57.660 put everything aside sometimes and do some work on yourself constantly? Like, 0:43:57.690 --> 0:43:59.430 do you think that that's important? 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:03.660 Look, I this is going to be the lamest answer 0:44:03.660 --> 0:44:05.430 because I'm going to keep coming back to the answer 0:44:05.430 --> 0:44:07.350 is going to be somewhere in the middle. I think 0:44:07.350 --> 0:44:09.990 there's a time in life where you need to compartmentalize, 0:44:09.989 --> 0:44:13.049 put shit aside and press on. Yeah. Um, like as 0:44:13.050 --> 0:44:15.120 much as I'm a fan of, like, I'm the heart 0:44:15.150 --> 0:44:19.230 on my sleeve guy, I'm fucking more emotions based than 0:44:19.230 --> 0:44:22.380 most dudes I know. But still, I'm also one of 0:44:22.380 --> 0:44:24.360 the most resilient people I know. And when I need 0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:27.000 to drive, I'll drive hard. I also think there's a 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:29.700 time when you need to put reality, and all the 0:44:29.700 --> 0:44:33.720 practical shit and the job and everything aside, and heal 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:36.210 so that you don't bleed on people that didn't cut you. 0:44:36.239 --> 0:44:41.910 First and foremost, and for yourself and your own worthiness 0:44:41.910 --> 0:44:45.120 to feel happy, you need to do some deep healing 0:44:45.120 --> 0:44:47.650 at times. And I think it's knowing which season am 0:44:47.650 --> 0:44:49.900 I in? Am I in like get shit done season 0:44:49.900 --> 0:44:53.530 right now or am I in like slowing down and 0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:57.790 like tying some loose ends? It's not summer always. You know, 0:44:57.820 --> 0:45:01.420 there's reasons why the universe goes through four different cycles, 0:45:01.450 --> 0:45:03.730 like so much of life is a rhythm, and it's 0:45:03.730 --> 0:45:07.510 about finding equilibrium between two sides. And what I think 0:45:07.510 --> 0:45:10.930 is coming up for you now is you've had the baby. 0:45:10.960 --> 0:45:13.510 A lot's happen. The pod, you're still traveling, you're in 0:45:13.510 --> 0:45:17.950 another country right now and and your nervous system is like, cool, 0:45:17.950 --> 0:45:20.860 we can do that. We can push. So long as 0:45:20.860 --> 0:45:24.490 you also give me time to feel and grieve. And 0:45:24.489 --> 0:45:27.790 it doesn't mean that that that moment says that you're 0:45:27.790 --> 0:45:31.600 now in a sad chapter again, it's just releasing some 0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:37.569 of those stored memories and and heartaches that parts of 0:45:37.570 --> 0:45:40.719 you are still holding to be true. And it's kind 0:45:40.719 --> 0:45:43.870 of like updating the software to say it's time to 0:45:43.900 --> 0:45:46.469 let go now, because we've been blessed with a new 0:45:46.469 --> 0:45:48.000 reality that we can live in. 0:45:48.030 --> 0:45:48.480 Mhm. 0:45:48.510 --> 0:45:50.640 Yeah. It's because I think I used to be so 0:45:50.640 --> 0:45:55.200 good at it. I really prided myself in helping myself, 0:45:55.230 --> 0:46:00.330 you know, in after, before Bobby came along. That's what 0:46:00.330 --> 0:46:02.880 I really, you know, I want to get out there 0:46:02.880 --> 0:46:05.550 to help people. I want to have these hard conversations. 0:46:05.550 --> 0:46:08.430 I'm going I'm doing a lot of self-care. I'm meditating, 0:46:08.430 --> 0:46:11.940 which I haven't meditated once since Bobby was born, and 0:46:11.940 --> 0:46:15.480 I was. So he'd be stoked. He would be. He 0:46:15.480 --> 0:46:18.210 wouldn't be. He would not be happy with me saying that. 0:46:18.210 --> 0:46:21.450 But yeah, I was like that. I was so good 0:46:21.450 --> 0:46:24.120 at that in the past. And I feel like now 0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:26.700 that I've got Bobby and I feel like a lot 0:46:26.700 --> 0:46:30.239 of other women out there could probably resonate. Your whole 0:46:30.239 --> 0:46:33.300 life is just like dedicated to them in a way, 0:46:33.300 --> 0:46:36.150 and you've really put yourself aside. And I, I genuinely 0:46:36.180 --> 0:46:39.780 hand to my heart, don't know where right now I 0:46:39.780 --> 0:46:44.750 would find the time to do me if I was real. Like, 0:46:44.900 --> 0:46:47.570 I feel like I've evolved and I've, like, grown a 0:46:47.570 --> 0:46:50.600 lot and I've. And I'm so much better than I 0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:55.160 was immediately post-birth right now. So I'm actually feeling okay. 0:46:55.190 --> 0:46:56.570 I think that I was just had a little bit 0:46:56.570 --> 0:47:01.250 of a moment just then, but, um, yeah. Where like 0:47:02.510 --> 0:47:05.390 if I was still in those trenches where I was 0:47:05.390 --> 0:47:08.270 a few weeks ago, and you do have this newborn 0:47:08.270 --> 0:47:10.760 and you do have a chaotic life, and I'm trying 0:47:10.790 --> 0:47:12.529 to slow down a bit now that I'm here in 0:47:12.530 --> 0:47:15.380 Ibiza and I do have time to slow down, but 0:47:15.380 --> 0:47:19.759 some women don't have that. And I'm like, how? How 0:47:19.760 --> 0:47:22.520 do these women, what are some ways that these women 0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:26.300 can help themselves in amongst this chaos? Like, you know, 0:47:26.330 --> 0:47:30.020 you talk about human connection and having these conversations like 0:47:30.050 --> 0:47:33.140 who are they going to? I actually had this conversation 0:47:33.140 --> 0:47:36.890 with a girlfriend the other day who had had a 0:47:36.890 --> 0:47:38.810 baby a few weeks before me, and I said, you know, 0:47:38.840 --> 0:47:40.969 how are you going? And I'd only just had the 0:47:40.969 --> 0:47:44.160 capacity to even ask her how she was going, because 0:47:44.160 --> 0:47:47.790 I was just in this like, trench and she was 0:47:47.790 --> 0:47:50.220 just boundaries. She was just like, oh my God, it 0:47:50.219 --> 0:47:54.089 was so hard. My partner wasn't even able to take 0:47:54.120 --> 0:47:57.120 time off work. I didn't have any family or friends around. 0:47:57.120 --> 0:47:59.489 And I was just thinking, oh my God, I'm the 0:47:59.489 --> 0:48:03.569 worst fucking friend for a start. How lucky am I 0:48:03.600 --> 0:48:05.910 that I did have family and friends around me? How 0:48:05.910 --> 0:48:08.879 the fuck would I have coped without my tribe around me? 0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:11.370 And this poor friend did that all alone. And I'm 0:48:11.370 --> 0:48:15.240 just thinking, oh my God, that is just it is 0:48:15.239 --> 0:48:20.190 so sad and I just have so much like, I 0:48:20.219 --> 0:48:22.920 guess empathy is the word for women and families that 0:48:22.920 --> 0:48:26.040 go through this without the help. But I guess where 0:48:26.040 --> 0:48:28.020 I was going with that question at the start, like 0:48:28.020 --> 0:48:30.780 how do women, where do they go for help? How 0:48:30.780 --> 0:48:32.580 do they ask for help? Who are they going to 0:48:32.610 --> 0:48:36.210 for help? Like help me help them right now? 0:48:37.440 --> 0:48:40.680 Yeah. Well, seeing as you asked, I will give advice 0:48:40.700 --> 0:48:45.110 because usually I would just land that and say, yes, 0:48:45.110 --> 0:48:47.509 you are. You have a lot on and that's that's 0:48:47.510 --> 0:48:50.360 a lot. And I can see that you're feeling confused 0:48:50.360 --> 0:48:53.390 and you're working through it. And that would be enough, 0:48:53.390 --> 0:48:57.259 because I trust in your ability to know that you 0:48:57.260 --> 0:48:59.479 will work through this. This is a new thing. Just 0:48:59.480 --> 0:49:01.759 like any new thing, you will find your feet. I 0:49:01.760 --> 0:49:05.270 have absolutely no doubt. And given the values of and 0:49:05.270 --> 0:49:10.310 the behaviors you've demonstrated previously of tenacity and perseverance and care, 0:49:10.340 --> 0:49:15.110 you will thrive in terms of how other people do that. Look, 0:49:15.140 --> 0:49:17.510 my my heart bleeds for them as well. I think 0:49:17.510 --> 0:49:23.480 sometimes I get in a loop around how is life fair? Like, 0:49:23.510 --> 0:49:28.069 I still keep in touch with my ex-girlfriend and something 0:49:28.070 --> 0:49:31.400 happened with her recently that was just so unfair, and 0:49:31.400 --> 0:49:34.130 watching my dad be brought to his knees when he's 0:49:34.130 --> 0:49:37.940 a good guy and doesn't deserve that. It's unfair. And and, 0:49:37.969 --> 0:49:41.280 you know, watching the wars break out. And there are 0:49:41.280 --> 0:49:47.100 times when I personally struggle with the existential acceptance that 0:49:47.100 --> 0:49:50.820 life can be fucking cruel sometimes. I deal with that 0:49:50.820 --> 0:49:53.730 by trying to turn as much pain into meaning and purpose, 0:49:53.730 --> 0:49:56.520 by giving back to others as I can. But there 0:49:56.520 --> 0:50:00.120 are some things that are just shit, and so I 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:04.350 think it's first, if you are in that position, letting 0:50:04.350 --> 0:50:08.490 yourself feel whatever you need to feel about that, whether 0:50:08.489 --> 0:50:11.820 that's I'm angry that I'm doing this on my own. 0:50:11.910 --> 0:50:14.279 You don't have to be in your full, rational mind 0:50:14.310 --> 0:50:16.680 all the time to be like, no, but I'm also 0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:19.350 grateful for this. That's going to come next. Right. You 0:50:19.350 --> 0:50:22.170 can go tidy up the mess in a second. I 0:50:22.170 --> 0:50:25.110 had a friend to use a story. She had such 0:50:25.110 --> 0:50:30.090 bad autoimmune issue that she would spend six plus months 0:50:30.090 --> 0:50:33.330 a year in hospital, and this has been happening since 0:50:33.330 --> 0:50:37.320 she was a teenager. She's unfortunately no longer with us, 0:50:37.350 --> 0:50:39.210 but I would go in to visit her in hospital 0:50:39.210 --> 0:50:44.130 and I'd ask like, how do you fight? Aren't you tired? 0:50:44.160 --> 0:50:47.729 And she's like, yeah, I'm fucking tired. But I have 0:50:47.730 --> 0:50:50.910 a pity party. Every so often I'll throw my fucking 0:50:50.940 --> 0:50:53.280 toys out of the cart. I'll look up at God 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:55.050 and be like, you're not fucking real, because no one 0:50:55.050 --> 0:50:57.450 would let this happen. Because I'm actually an ambulance driver 0:50:57.480 --> 0:50:59.850 outside of this, and I'm sitting here in a hospital. 0:50:59.850 --> 0:51:03.719 This is just not okay. And then I once I 0:51:03.719 --> 0:51:06.960 felt it, I get up in bed again and I 0:51:06.960 --> 0:51:09.330 push on and I take an inventory of what strengths 0:51:09.330 --> 0:51:11.190 I do have, and I focus on the positive and 0:51:11.190 --> 0:51:13.140 I go, that's the yin to the yang. You know, 0:51:13.170 --> 0:51:17.190 you allow yourself to have a moment of whatever that 0:51:17.190 --> 0:51:20.730 moment looks like so that your nervous system can purge. 0:51:20.730 --> 0:51:23.489 Then you have space and capacity to come back into 0:51:23.489 --> 0:51:26.940 the wise mind and kind of pave a way forward. 0:51:26.940 --> 0:51:30.510 So don't deny yourself of what's true, I think, is 0:51:30.510 --> 0:51:34.350 the first step. Second step is reaching out to people 0:51:34.350 --> 0:51:36.660 who you trust, and that can have a real conversation 0:51:36.660 --> 0:51:39.239 with you and hold that space. And they're not scared 0:51:39.239 --> 0:51:43.500 of hearing the darkness and that they'll sit with you 0:51:43.500 --> 0:51:45.930 in it. And if you don't have one of those people, 0:51:45.930 --> 0:51:49.710 then thankfully there are resources like lifeline and and therapy 0:51:49.710 --> 0:51:53.190 that can help you work through that. The third thing 0:51:53.190 --> 0:51:57.390 I would say is be patient, especially in that example 0:51:57.390 --> 0:52:01.469 of of postnatal, as someone who's researched it and, and 0:52:01.500 --> 0:52:03.779 has have friends in it, by no means is this 0:52:03.810 --> 0:52:07.890 my specialty, but chemistry is going to have a massive 0:52:07.890 --> 0:52:12.360 part to play here that will normalize with time, and 0:52:12.360 --> 0:52:16.259 it may or may not also require medical interventions and help. 0:52:16.260 --> 0:52:20.310 But I'm sure you can relate to you know, you 0:52:20.310 --> 0:52:23.550 alluded to perhaps a mild version of it when you're 0:52:23.550 --> 0:52:26.910 in it, whether it's this or something else, you swear 0:52:26.910 --> 0:52:29.580 it's going to last forever and that you can't see 0:52:29.580 --> 0:52:32.400 the clouds for the sky. You know, it now feels 0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:34.520 like the clouds have always been the sky. And now 0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:36.860 it's forever going to be like this. And I think, 0:52:36.860 --> 0:52:40.940 if nothing else, just know this too shall pass. 0:52:40.969 --> 0:52:43.550 I say that a lot. I say that a lot. 0:52:43.550 --> 0:52:46.279 And it's really it was really hard to be in 0:52:46.280 --> 0:52:48.980 that position because I did. I have known a few 0:52:48.980 --> 0:52:52.160 people with postnatal depression when I was trying to conceive, 0:52:52.160 --> 0:52:54.410 and I was always just like, I just don't get it. 0:52:54.410 --> 0:52:58.340 Like how you've got you've got everything, you've got your baby, 0:52:58.370 --> 0:53:00.950 you've got a home, you travel like I've known a 0:53:00.950 --> 0:53:02.509 few people that are like that. And I'm like, how 0:53:02.510 --> 0:53:06.350 can you actually be depressed right now? But it's so 0:53:06.380 --> 0:53:11.029 weird when you say it. That's a chemical situation happening. 0:53:11.030 --> 0:53:14.660 I fully believe that now because like, I essentially was 0:53:14.660 --> 0:53:17.420 that person. And I also am finding it really difficult 0:53:17.420 --> 0:53:20.089 to have these chats on this podcast because a lot 0:53:20.090 --> 0:53:24.650 of our listeners are trying to conceive and I feel like, yeah, 0:53:24.680 --> 0:53:30.680 I feel so guilty talking about being so sad post 0:53:30.710 --> 0:53:34.590 having a baby when I was always like, I would 0:53:34.590 --> 0:53:38.130 always see people online, you know? And I'd be like, 0:53:38.130 --> 0:53:40.680 don't ever complain. Don't ever complain about having the baby 0:53:40.680 --> 0:53:43.350 because there's so many people out there that are, um, 0:53:43.380 --> 0:53:48.450 trying to conceive. And I just feel like the biggest hypocrite. Like, literally, 0:53:48.450 --> 0:53:52.380 I it breaks my fucking heart. No, it doesn't break. Well, 0:53:52.380 --> 0:53:54.450 it does break my heart, but it also, I feel 0:53:54.450 --> 0:53:59.069 so fucking guilty saying this in this space when I 0:53:59.070 --> 0:54:02.580 know there's so many of you out there that are like, own, 0:54:02.610 --> 0:54:05.280 that listen to us because they're struggling. And then here 0:54:05.280 --> 0:54:08.790 I am. I've struggled, I've done this struggle, I've had 0:54:08.790 --> 0:54:11.160 the baby and now I'm on the other side going, 0:54:11.340 --> 0:54:16.110 this is really hard. And I'm I'm not coping that well. 0:54:16.110 --> 0:54:19.650 And I've got the baby. I don't know, it's so weird. 0:54:19.650 --> 0:54:22.020 It's and I yeah. And I am so sorry to 0:54:22.050 --> 0:54:24.420 those people out there listening just going, you're a fucking 0:54:24.630 --> 0:54:28.050 you're shit. I can't believe you're doing this because it's. 0:54:28.050 --> 0:54:29.879 I don't think anyone's thinking that. 0:54:29.880 --> 0:54:32.780 I'm just trying to be honest and try to be like, 0:54:32.810 --> 0:54:36.469 this happens like, fuck, it's wild. 0:54:36.500 --> 0:54:39.830 Look, it makes sense that you're that you're feeling guilty, right? 0:54:39.860 --> 0:54:43.070 Because you were in those shoes for so long and 0:54:43.070 --> 0:54:45.020 and you would have given anything to be there. And 0:54:45.020 --> 0:54:47.630 now that you are here and you're feeling what you 0:54:47.630 --> 0:54:51.259 didn't expect to, you're coming to terms with how you 0:54:51.260 --> 0:54:55.340 reconcile being honest with also being grateful in a role 0:54:55.340 --> 0:54:59.210 model for what you needed at the time. Full stop. 0:54:59.210 --> 0:55:00.950 We're on a podcast, so I'll go on to give 0:55:00.980 --> 0:55:05.690 advice like my $0.02. Um, my $0.02 there is that like, 0:55:06.080 --> 0:55:08.930 you know, Brene Brown, who's someone I respect a lot. 0:55:08.930 --> 0:55:12.200 She talks about comparative suffering and how it doesn't serve anyone. 0:55:12.230 --> 0:55:15.620 You know, you're allowed to feel whatever you have and 0:55:15.620 --> 0:55:19.250 also be grateful for what you know. They don't have 0:55:19.250 --> 0:55:22.190 to cancel out each other. There's not this like, you know, 0:55:22.219 --> 0:55:25.070 zero sum equation where I can only feel that or 0:55:25.100 --> 0:55:27.740 that if someone else is happy, therefore I can't be 0:55:27.739 --> 0:55:31.410 as happy or no, fuck that. It can all be true. 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:39.060 You can feel different to how you expected. Happy, sometimes. Sad, guilty. 0:55:39.060 --> 0:55:42.810 And all those things at the same time. And I 0:55:42.810 --> 0:55:46.140 think what people value the most is honesty around integrating 0:55:46.140 --> 0:55:48.060 all those different perspectives. 0:55:48.840 --> 0:55:51.780 Yeah, it's so hard. It's so hard to try to 0:55:51.810 --> 0:55:56.670 learn that juggle and. Yeah, and I do. I probably 0:55:56.670 --> 0:55:59.219 shouldn't apologise, but I do apologise for all those women 0:55:59.219 --> 0:56:01.830 out there because I definitely I know that I was 0:56:01.830 --> 0:56:04.710 always saying so much stuff about don't ever complain and 0:56:04.710 --> 0:56:08.549 here I am, so here we are. But that this 0:56:08.550 --> 0:56:12.240 chat has been so amazing and I think it's helped. 0:56:12.270 --> 0:56:14.910 So it's going to help so, so many people because 0:56:15.120 --> 0:56:19.290 this chat and from opening up the the chats on 0:56:19.320 --> 0:56:23.520 our socials last night, I've really become aware of you 0:56:23.550 --> 0:56:25.380 kind of just get lost in your own world for 0:56:25.380 --> 0:56:27.629 a second and you forget about other people and other 0:56:27.630 --> 0:56:31.400 people's struggles. And I did want to close this podcast 0:56:31.400 --> 0:56:36.230 out by answering a dear darlings for you all. And 0:56:36.680 --> 0:56:43.160 there are so many really important questions and topics that 0:56:43.160 --> 0:56:45.319 have been asked, and I think that we might do 0:56:45.320 --> 0:56:49.910 a bit of a part two bonus episode, um, for 0:56:49.910 --> 0:56:52.700 you guys at a later date, but let's just. Are 0:56:52.700 --> 0:56:55.790 you okay to answer two questions right now? Absolutely. That 0:56:55.790 --> 0:57:00.319 I think this one actually stood out to me the most. 0:57:00.320 --> 0:57:04.580 And and this person has said, what do you do 0:57:04.580 --> 0:57:08.509 when you're going through something really big, like cancer and 0:57:08.510 --> 0:57:11.030 a lot of friends disappear or don't acknowledge what you're 0:57:11.030 --> 0:57:11.930 going through? 0:57:12.980 --> 0:57:17.810 Yeah. Gosh, isn't that like a poetic place to, um, 0:57:17.840 --> 0:57:21.230 start to journey into the end of this, um, this 0:57:21.230 --> 0:57:23.930 chat because it picks up on so many threads that 0:57:23.930 --> 0:57:26.890 we've hit on. Right? It's not about you like that? 0:57:26.920 --> 0:57:30.669 If you're ghosting someone for a cancer diagnosis, you need 0:57:30.700 --> 0:57:36.160 to look in the mirror. Because we must be able 0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:38.500 to build the capacity to be there for people in 0:57:38.500 --> 0:57:40.900 moments where no one deserves to be alone. And if 0:57:40.900 --> 0:57:45.730 we can't, then we've got to go figure out how. Like, 0:57:45.760 --> 0:57:48.100 of course, there are times in our life where we 0:57:48.130 --> 0:57:52.600 are absolutely maxed out. And you mentioned one before. I'm 0:57:52.630 --> 0:57:56.410 kind of constantly ebbing and flowing between being like, if 0:57:56.410 --> 0:57:59.620 I go and help another person, I'm going to go 0:57:59.620 --> 0:58:02.710 off the deep end, so I need to pull back. 0:58:02.710 --> 0:58:06.430 But if if someone feels ghosted, whereby a whole network 0:58:06.430 --> 0:58:10.690 of people are opting out, that's like if that's considering 0:58:10.690 --> 0:58:13.000 that some people are having a bad day, everyone's not 0:58:13.000 --> 0:58:15.130 having a bad day and is at full max capacity. 0:58:15.160 --> 0:58:18.280 It means that their network is being really rigid and 0:58:18.280 --> 0:58:21.880 closed down, and so walk up to the mate with 0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:24.890 cancer and say, I don't know what to say, I'm 0:58:24.890 --> 0:58:28.940 fucking sorry this has happened. Here's a bench. I'm here 0:58:28.940 --> 0:58:31.760 to listen, and I won't say a word if you 0:58:31.760 --> 0:58:35.270 don't want me to. That's like. That's fucking courage. And 0:58:35.270 --> 0:58:38.720 that person would respect that 100 times more than you 0:58:38.750 --> 0:58:42.020 not having the perfect thing to say. Just be honest 0:58:42.020 --> 0:58:44.540 and say I give a fuck and you're not alone. 0:58:44.570 --> 0:58:48.080 Like ghosting someone because of your own insecurities when you 0:58:48.080 --> 0:58:51.680 have capacity to give is not acceptable in my opinion. 0:58:51.980 --> 0:58:55.460 And being the person with cancer, how do they go 0:58:55.460 --> 0:58:58.430 about this when their friends are kind of ghosting? Do 0:58:58.430 --> 0:59:01.880 you think that they should reach out to them, or 0:59:01.880 --> 0:59:05.630 should they look elsewhere? And you know, they've got their 0:59:05.630 --> 0:59:07.790 core friendship group? I mean, I'm just making this as 0:59:07.790 --> 0:59:10.130 an example, but if they've got their core friendship group 0:59:10.130 --> 0:59:12.530 that aren't serving them, where else do they go when 0:59:12.530 --> 0:59:15.080 they really fucking need someone to talk to or a 0:59:15.080 --> 0:59:16.160 shoulder to cry on? 0:59:16.190 --> 0:59:20.300 Yeah, I think then if I was in that situation, 0:59:20.300 --> 0:59:24.250 I would go to specific support groups for that issue, 0:59:24.250 --> 0:59:28.840 because if you're feeling that isolated, alone and misunderstood, you 0:59:28.840 --> 0:59:33.340 need to quickly remedy that and overcorrect to like hyper understanding. 0:59:33.340 --> 0:59:36.850 So I would go then to a cancer support group. 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:37.300 Yeah. 0:59:37.330 --> 0:59:39.550 Yeah, I actually leant on a lot of that when 0:59:39.550 --> 0:59:42.910 I was going through my fertility struggles going. There's so 0:59:42.910 --> 0:59:46.690 many Facebook groups out there that they get it and 0:59:46.690 --> 0:59:49.390 they talk about it 24 over seven. And even if 0:59:49.420 --> 0:59:51.760 you don't want to be asking the questions, I can 0:59:51.760 --> 0:59:54.700 guarantee you someone else is going to ask the question 0:59:54.700 --> 0:59:57.970 very quickly on there because it constantly they're evolving. And 0:59:57.970 --> 1:00:01.120 then there's so many comments and people trying to, you know, 1:00:01.150 --> 1:00:04.060 help and offer advice. And yeah, I think that that's 1:00:04.060 --> 1:00:07.510 a really good one as well. Okay. The last question 1:00:07.510 --> 1:00:11.170 that someone's written in was how do I answer the question, 1:00:11.170 --> 1:00:14.320 how are you? When I'm struggling with my mental health. 1:00:14.350 --> 1:00:16.390 I'm in the fertility trenches, but I don't want to 1:00:16.390 --> 1:00:18.910 burden my friends and family. I really want to be 1:00:18.910 --> 1:00:22.640 honest with the struggle and explain why I've been so withdrawn, 1:00:22.640 --> 1:00:24.440 but I'm not sure how. 1:00:24.470 --> 1:00:27.650 Yeah. Great question. So for this one I'd say person, 1:00:27.650 --> 1:00:31.010 place and time. So check in with yourself and be like, 1:00:31.040 --> 1:00:35.060 is this someone person wise that can genuinely hold space 1:00:35.060 --> 1:00:38.660 for more than just a tick the box answer? Can 1:00:38.690 --> 1:00:43.670 I truly get real? Second is, is this the right place? 1:00:44.030 --> 1:00:46.939 Third is is this the right time? And you need 1:00:46.970 --> 1:00:50.420 three of three. And in those moments, if someone says, 1:00:50.420 --> 1:00:53.450 how are you and you feel fraudulent, saying, I'm good 1:00:53.450 --> 1:00:57.110 if you're not. Say, there's some stuff going on, now 1:00:57.140 --> 1:01:01.040 is probably not the right time. If you are interested 1:01:01.310 --> 1:01:04.190 and you have capacity, then we'd love to check in 1:01:04.190 --> 1:01:06.560 with you. When we both have some headspace to be 1:01:06.560 --> 1:01:10.760 able to get into it properly. But I'm, I'm I'm 1:01:10.760 --> 1:01:12.890 seeking support and I'm doing okay for now. 1:01:13.730 --> 1:01:15.590 And then what happens if they do want to talk 1:01:15.590 --> 1:01:16.580 about it though? 1:01:16.610 --> 1:01:19.190 And if you are also happy to talk about it 1:01:19.190 --> 1:01:22.420 with them and you consent to that, then allow them 1:01:22.420 --> 1:01:26.080 to organize that time and place, and you be an 1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:28.360 active member in participating in that. Yeah. 1:01:28.390 --> 1:01:31.960 Oh, yeah. The questions are so hard. But like you said, 1:01:31.960 --> 1:01:35.230 you've got to be a big boy and just go 1:01:35.260 --> 1:01:39.520 go in for the the eye of the storm. It's scary. 1:01:40.510 --> 1:01:43.570 And I think as well, in answer to this person's question, 1:01:43.570 --> 1:01:47.620 just from my experience, how they're saying, how do you 1:01:47.620 --> 1:01:49.990 answer that question? How are you when you are struggling? 1:01:49.990 --> 1:01:53.650 I think you don't actually have to be strong, like 1:01:53.680 --> 1:01:56.080 you don't have to be withdrawn. And I think I 1:01:56.080 --> 1:01:59.320 know that naturally you want to be away. It's super important. 1:01:59.320 --> 1:02:01.450 And from my experience and like, I don't want to 1:02:01.450 --> 1:02:03.490 be flipping this on me, but I'm just trying to 1:02:03.520 --> 1:02:06.190 give an example like, yeah, please, you do need to 1:02:06.190 --> 1:02:09.700 find that person. And for that person for me is 1:02:09.700 --> 1:02:13.840 generally elody sometimes it's not even Paul. Elody is like 1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:18.710 my rock. She's like my emotional support animal. Vice versa. 1:02:19.160 --> 1:02:23.900 We we definitely deal with things completely differently like she will. 1:02:24.020 --> 1:02:28.010 A lot of the time, bottle things up and keep 1:02:28.010 --> 1:02:31.130 things internal because that's how she copes and that's her 1:02:31.130 --> 1:02:34.820 coping mechanism and sometimes her bucket. And like what Cooper 1:02:34.820 --> 1:02:37.670 likes to say, he's your bucket gets full and full 1:02:37.670 --> 1:02:39.650 and full and full until it to the point where 1:02:39.650 --> 1:02:42.050 you do need to sit down with someone and you 1:02:42.050 --> 1:02:46.190 are at the verge of breaking. Whereas me personally, I 1:02:46.190 --> 1:02:49.490 like to get it out straight away and she's my person. 1:02:49.490 --> 1:02:51.530 That if I'm not doing well, I don't even need 1:02:51.530 --> 1:02:53.540 to say anything to her. Like I'll pick up the 1:02:53.540 --> 1:02:56.630 phone and I'll just end up in tears. And she's like, okay, 1:02:56.630 --> 1:02:59.360 let's sit down what's going on? And I'll let her 1:02:59.390 --> 1:03:05.090 know straight away. So it's it's all relative to the 1:03:05.090 --> 1:03:09.050 context and how you're feeling at the time and finding 1:03:09.050 --> 1:03:11.600 that one person. And like you said earlier, like if 1:03:11.600 --> 1:03:14.510 you don't have that one person, there are so many 1:03:14.510 --> 1:03:17.770 places that you can go for help. There's help lines 1:03:17.770 --> 1:03:20.860 will actually list. I'll list a bunch of them in 1:03:20.860 --> 1:03:22.870 the show notes. So if you are listening and you 1:03:22.870 --> 1:03:26.830 don't have your person, please reach out and get help 1:03:26.830 --> 1:03:30.460 from these different. There's hotlines, there's chats. If you don't 1:03:30.460 --> 1:03:32.620 want to speak to someone on the phone, there's there's 1:03:32.620 --> 1:03:35.110 so many different ways that you can get help and 1:03:35.110 --> 1:03:39.460 feel heard and people with experience to help you back. Um, 1:03:39.460 --> 1:03:43.990 so I just really want to say thank you so much, Mitch, for, 1:03:44.020 --> 1:03:45.520 by the way, I'm going to get your book. I 1:03:45.520 --> 1:03:48.280 haven't read it, but I would love to read your book. 1:03:48.310 --> 1:03:49.390 We'll get you a copy for sure. 1:03:49.510 --> 1:03:50.440 To get it on my Kindle. 1:03:50.470 --> 1:03:51.220 Absolutely. 1:03:51.340 --> 1:03:53.050 Um, I will also put a link in our show 1:03:53.080 --> 1:03:56.260 notes as well. For anyone that wants to read Mitch's book, 1:03:56.290 --> 1:03:59.440 you can follow him on Instagram. We'll link his Instagram. 1:03:59.440 --> 1:04:04.030 It's at Mitch Dot Wallace w a l l I s. 1:04:04.060 --> 1:04:07.390 He's also got a podcast. You can listen to his podcast, 1:04:07.390 --> 1:04:10.360 but I've linked everything in the show notes and I really, 1:04:10.360 --> 1:04:13.630 honestly appreciate you so much. Mitch. And I knew this 1:04:13.630 --> 1:04:17.030 conversation was going to be great, but I think it's 1:04:17.030 --> 1:04:22.160 it's over exceeded my expectations. And yeah, I really appreciate 1:04:22.160 --> 1:04:24.320 you coming on here. So thanks so much. 1:04:24.350 --> 1:04:28.460 My absolute pleasure. And thanks for being such a authentic 1:04:28.460 --> 1:04:31.670 and bright spirit in the world. I think we need 1:04:31.670 --> 1:04:33.919 more people like you, and it's been an honor to 1:04:33.950 --> 1:04:35.720 to hang out with you for an hour or so. 1:04:35.750 --> 1:04:40.490 Oh, you're amazing. And I will definitely come back to this, everyone. 1:04:40.490 --> 1:04:42.290 And if you have any other questions that you would 1:04:42.290 --> 1:04:45.860 like us to touch on, please email us. Probably get 1:04:45.860 --> 1:04:50.120 lost on Instagram. So email me at hello darling Shine.com 1:04:50.120 --> 1:04:51.860 and we'll make sure we add that to our list. 1:04:51.860 --> 1:04:54.860 And thank you guys or thank you Mitch and we 1:04:54.890 --> 1:04:56.750 hope you guys really enjoyed that chat. 1:04:58.280 --> 1:05:03.140 Oh we're always.