UU: Listener. We're. Always here for you.
S1: You're listening to Darling Shine, a podcast by myself, LED
S1: Zeppelin and me. Chloe Fisher. A place where we ground womanhood.
S1: Unspoken experiences. From grief to fertility and everything in between.
S1: Join us while we transform our pain into power. Encompassing
S1: all emotions, ugly and beautiful. Darlene shine is your chosen
S1: family and your survival kit for the unexpected shit life
S1: throws at you. Hey darlings. So today we're talking about
S1: mental health. So if you're struggling with your own mental health,
S1: there'll be some resources available in the show notes. So
S1: Mitch Wallis is not just a mental health expert. He's
S1: a passionate advocate, speaker, and the founder of Heart on
S1: My Sleeve, which is a global movement that encourages open
S1: and honest conversations about mental health. Mitch's journey began with
S1: his own struggles with anxiety and depression, and it led
S1: him to share his story and inspire millions around the world.
S1: With a background in psychology and a personal mission to
S1: change the way we talk about mental health, Mitch has
S1: become a leading voice in the field, known for his
S1: raw authenticity and deep compassion. In today's episode, we will
S1: be exploring some strategies in which you can help friends
S1: struggling with miscarriage who are grieving some strategies in how
S1: to help yourself. We're going to be talking about postpartum
S1: depression baby blues. So whether you're seeking advice for yourself
S1: or someone that you love, this conversation is one that
S1: you definitely don't want to miss. So without further ado,
S1: let's welcome Mitch Wallace to the show. Welcome, Mitch.
S2: Chloe, you're a legend. I'm so stoked to be here.
S2: I'm a massive fan of your family. Coop's a good
S2: mate of mine, and I just respect his whole demeanor.
S2: Every time I see him, I leave feeling lighter and brighter,
S2: which I just think is such a rare, rare attribute
S2: in people these days. And I followed you and your
S2: journey for a long time. I think your honesty and
S2: vulnerability through your pregnancy journey was inspiring to say the least. Um,
S2: and big fan of Phish's music and him representing us
S2: from Down Under here, so it's an absolute pleasure to
S2: be here.
S1: Oh, yay! I'm very excited for this chat. Thanks so much, Mitch.
S1: So someone's lost their loved one and you're feeling like
S1: you need to speak to them about it. You need
S1: to ask if they're okay. What is some of the
S1: ways that you can speak to this person without, you know,
S1: that just being that texting them saying, are you okay? Or,
S1: you know, how do we delve deeper into that conversation
S1: with these people?
S2: Yeah. Good question. So I've kind of devoted the last
S2: six years of my life to answering that ideally in
S2: the best way possible outside of someone getting a psychology
S2: College degree so that non-clinicians i.e. mums, dads, brothers, sisters, co-workers, people,
S2: managers can be there for important people in moments that
S2: matter most when they're in emotional pain. Shameless plug wrote
S2: a book called Real Conversations A five step Framework to
S2: Connect with confidence, coming out September 3rd in Australia. So
S2: get a copy. But I'm going to touch on some
S2: of the key concepts from that book in this talk
S2: so that if you can't be bothered reading it, you'll
S2: have what you need to still create actionable difference. So
S2: we're spending more money on mental health services. Charities are
S2: getting more visibility, stigma is reducing, blah blah blah. But
S2: loneliness has never been higher. Suicide stats are soaring and
S2: mental illness is rampant. So there has to be a disconnect.
S2: And I've been lucky enough to study under some of
S2: the leading thought leaders globally who have literally written the
S2: book on attachment style and parenting. Like Harvard professors, psychiatrists.
S2: I as well have a master's degree in clinical psychology
S2: from Columbia. And I've struggled with this for 20 years,
S2: and I kind of went back and thought to myself, well,
S2: what has been pivotal in my journey? And then what
S2: does the research say? And without a doubt, the single
S2: greatest influence to my own well-being and the reason that
S2: I chose to stay here on earth was because of
S2: my mum. My mum is my guardian angel. Such a
S2: rock solid human. And I tried to work out well.
S2: What was she doing so well that potentially other people
S2: don't have a natural inclination for? Not by virtue of malice,
S2: but by just a lack of education. And what did
S2: she happen to get lucky with and do right? And
S2: it turns out that what she did well is also
S2: what the research says works the most, and that is
S2: that human relationships are without a doubt the single greatest
S2: influence to our wellbeing Being outside of genetics, who you
S2: have in your life is the number one predictor of
S2: happiness and the number one predictor of unhappiness. Harvard did
S2: a longitudinal study, and they looked at tons of people
S2: across the lifespan, 85 years plus. And they tried to
S2: boil down the most impactful variable to when someone's on
S2: their deathbed. They said, I've lived a good life. And
S2: it was the quality of their relationships more than their
S2: socioeconomic status and everything else that was the driver of happiness.
S2: On the other side of the coin, when they tried
S2: to look at, well, what is the best thing that
S2: we can do to buffer against the inevitable shit that
S2: life is going to throw us? And it was supportive relationships.
S2: It literally was the difference between two people seeing this
S2: same traumatic event, one person being highly symptomatic later in
S2: life and others not being so badly affected was how
S2: connected they felt through it. There's no doubt That humans
S2: need each other more than anything else, and our longevity
S2: as a species and our ability to reverse this worrying
S2: mental illness trend is going to be made or broken
S2: on our ability to have real conversations. However, the biggest
S2: thing I've found is that people have the wrong definition
S2: of helpful when they're trying to support someone in emotional pain.
S2: Up until now, we've walked around with kind of one
S2: hammer in our tool belt, expecting that that's going to
S2: be the solve for every conversation that we have. And
S2: I call that a transactional conversation whereby our intention is
S2: to fix and solve. And it makes sense. Right? Because
S2: all of school, we are incentivized for how good we
S2: can be at solving problems. And then we're going to
S2: university and the workplace, and we're promoted and compensated on
S2: how smart we are at making problems go away. So
S2: that's all well and good. But the problem is, is
S2: that thinking one tool will handle every situation is like
S2: expecting that you can assemble a house with just that instrument.
S2: It's not going to happen. If something is practical, it's
S2: fine to fix the problem. If something is emotional, your
S2: goal is to understand the person. Now that might seem
S2: very small, but in practice it has massive consequences.
S1: It's so interesting that you say that because I remember
S1: back maybe two years ago when I was really struggling
S1: and we did a podcast episode on like Helping Friends.
S1: What to say when your friend is going through like
S1: fertility struggles. And the number one thing that I said
S1: was educate yourself. Actually going away and educating yourself on
S1: that topic or educating yourself around miscarriages, for example. And
S1: for that person who is struggling to listen to the
S1: friend that's gone out of their way, given their time
S1: to try and understand and educate themselves around that. It's
S1: so touching. Even though it's not going to help really
S1: fix your problem, to have an understanding of your friend
S1: that's trying to do help outside of just like I'm
S1: thinking of you or are you okay? It's like it's
S1: so special.
S2: And what you're touching on there, Clay, is that what
S2: that symbolizes is that they care, right? And so, so care.
S2: It's the active ingredient in a real conversation. It's advice
S2: is not the thing that gets people better. So I'll
S2: use one more bit of research, and then I'll stop
S2: being a nerd and talk from the heart. But um,
S2: different people have different learning styles on listening to pods,
S2: so if you're data driven, then geek out for one
S2: more minute before I switch gears. But when I was
S2: writing the book, I tried to find in the literature,
S2: why does psychotherapy work? Like when you go to a
S2: counselor and you talk about your feelings and stuff, why
S2: do some people get better and others don't. And what
S2: was proven in a meta analysis, which means basically studies
S2: of studies was it didn't really matter whether someone did
S2: cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavioral therapy or whatever intervention
S2: a therapist uses. The main predictor of a therapeutic outcome
S2: was the quality of the relationship formed, i.e. how seen, heard, understood,
S2: and cared about. Because the patient has a natural healing
S2: mechanism inside themselves, the therapist's job is not to fix
S2: something that's broken, but to enable the self-healing capacity to
S2: come back online. And that most pain emotionally is not
S2: the problem. It's the shame. It's the shame, loneliness, frustration
S2: and guilt. It's not the problem itself when you're having
S2: a real conversation, if all you do is hold back
S2: on giving advice and you what we call in in
S2: our world. Sit in the mud with someone instead of
S2: trying to drag them out of it. They will feel better.
S2: That's so.
S1: True. Yes. So?
S2: So what is understanding a person and sitting in the
S2: mud actually look like in practice, versus trying to fix
S2: their problem and take them out of the mud. So
S2: there's there's five things to avoid. And I'm going to
S2: put a character name on them. Right. So let's assume
S2: that someone's just had a miscarriage. The first mistake to
S2: avoid is being a magician. So that is thinking that
S2: you can wave a magic wand and just take someone's
S2: problem away. A magician would say something like, you should
S2: talk to Monash IVF. They're an amazing fertility vendor and
S2: they'll be able to get you back on track. And
S2: you just need to use an embryo instead of an egg.
S2: And has Paul gone and got tests to make sure
S2: that he's fertile? All this stuff, when you're actually just
S2: grieving the loss of a life and you do not
S2: want to hear that shit right now, There is a
S2: time and a place to pick up and move forward. Absolutely.
S2: We're not talking about wallowing, but if the first thing
S2: you do is jump straight to a solution, that person
S2: will feel like something that's broken in need of repair.
S2: And you won't actually attend to the swelling, which is
S2: a broken heart. So it doesn't mean you can't give advice.
S2: It just cannot be straight off the bat that you
S2: try and wave this magic wand and clue. People all day,
S2: every day don't even realize they've switched from a practical
S2: conversation to an emotional one. Like, for example, your partner
S2: gets home from work and says, I'm feeling really distant
S2: from you at the moment. And you go, oh, this
S2: is a practical conversation. Okay, well, let's go for dinner
S2: on Saturday night, when actually, that was an emotional conversation.
S2: And what they wanted to hear was, shit, how long
S2: have you felt that? What do you think's is driving that?
S2: And getting curious around the person? Not the problem.
S1: You're just banging on everything right now. That makes so
S1: much sense. I think I'm getting better at asking the,
S1: you know, diving deeper into the conversations. But naturally, as humans,
S1: I feel like we just try and mask the problem
S1: and sort of like divert the attention to something else.
S2: Yeah, yeah. And as I said, it's really natural because
S2: that's the way our society is structured. That's the way
S2: our brains are hardwired. We've kind of part of the
S2: reason we're in such a shit show mentally, is that
S2: we've lost a lot of heart. We've just we operate
S2: so much from the head nowadays, but we are a social,
S2: emotional species that has learned how to think, not the
S2: other way around. And we've forgotten a big part of
S2: who we are, and we don't like seeing people in pain.
S2: So we go back to our traditional tool, a hammer,
S2: and we try and exchange information. But what people are
S2: looking for is, is connection, which is to feel understood. stood.
S2: So mistake number one, don't offer a solution straight away
S2: and let them ask for it as an adult if
S2: they want your input and advice. Second mistake people make
S2: is being a thief. Again, no shame around these mistakes.
S2: I do them all the time. So the thief jumps
S2: in with a same or a me too and steals
S2: the focus. So let's say you approached a friend and
S2: said I just had a miscarriage and they go, oh
S2: my God, I had a miscarriage three years ago. Bless, right?
S2: They want to be like, no, you don't need to
S2: feel alone or exposed or vulnerable. I'm right there with you.
S2: I get it so much because I it happened to me.
S2: The problem, though, when that happens again straight off the bat,
S2: is you steal that person's opportunity to be validated for
S2: their pain, and then it becomes a competitive bidding war
S2: around who's felt worse. And the person in pain now
S2: feels like they need to support you when they don't
S2: have any capacity right now to even support themselves.
S1: I feel like this is the biggest one.
S2: It's it's a big one for sure. It's a silent
S2: connection killer because we forget that people do genuinely want
S2: that moment to be understood before we make it about
S2: someone else. Just to reiterate, as you said, Chlo, we
S2: can see ourselves in a lot of these. And it's
S2: not to shame. It's just not helpful when you're having
S2: an emotional conversation because it's most helpful for them to
S2: feel understood. Have you had instances where someone has shifted
S2: the focus away from you during your hardest times?
S1: Oh, definitely. And I think as well I can take
S1: a note out of this book too, because I think
S1: even sometimes when I'm talking to Paul about things like,
S1: I'll say something to him or he'll say something to me,
S1: and then you immediately talk about yourself or give an
S1: example of. Oh yeah, well, yesterday I wanted to get
S1: this done, but I didn't get to get it done
S1: because you were doing it and they're like, well, why
S1: are you flipping this on you? I'm trying to tell
S1: you that I'm struggling with this, but now you're making
S1: me feel bad because you didn't get to do it yesterday. Yeah, yeah.
S2: We're in a comparison war.
S1: It's really difficult. And I and I think as well,
S1: for exactly the example that you just made in the
S1: miscarriage world, it's so common for people to they think
S1: that you're helping them out by telling them that you've
S1: had a miscarriage and, and then all of a sudden
S1: the roles flipped and you're trying to help this person,
S1: but you're deep in it, and often it's actually quite
S1: triggering to I find sometimes. Yeah, don't take this the
S1: wrong way. Anyone and I don't want to sound like rude, but,
S1: you know, I might be in these scenarios where I'm
S1: at a nightclub trying to enjoy myself. And I've had
S1: this when I've had a miscarriage previously and I've just
S1: had it. I've spoken about it on the podcast. I'm
S1: out having a good time trying to take my mind
S1: off things and some will come straight up to me.
S1: Trauma dump on you. And it's. I find I feel
S1: so selfish saying that. But that is so difficult when
S1: someone comes up to you, like this whole conversation that
S1: we're having right now. I'm kind of like shooting myself
S1: in the foot here because it's very much like, how
S1: can you talk to these people and how can you
S1: start these conversations? And that is a way that people
S1: do start these conversations. But it often upsets you even
S1: more because then you feel like you need to comfort them.
S1: And it's like this whole cycle and I struggle. I
S1: actually struggle with that really hard. And I still struggle
S1: with that. And I know I'm a massive advocate in
S1: the miscarriage space. I'm the member, like on the board
S1: of the Pink Elephant Support Network. And you'd think that
S1: that I would be a poster girl for people to
S1: come up to and talk to about that, but it
S1: actually is really, really triggering still and really upsets me
S1: when I do have to talk about these experiences. So
S1: I don't know. I'm actually stuck in a bit of
S1: a pickle there, but I feel that in so many
S1: levels on both sides as well.
S2: Can I just like, reflect back on that? Because I
S2: think it's a really important point. And I want to say,
S2: which is a good segue to actually mistake number three.
S2: Don't be a blind optimist. You are a role model
S2: for so many people in a similar situation. And I
S2: don't know about you, but at least in my life,
S2: the answer is never found in black and white. It's
S2: somewhere in the middle. So using this example, we're not
S2: like I have a charity called Heart on My sleeve
S2: that I founded. I am the biggest advocate for people
S2: speaking up when they're not okay. But just like you,
S2: when I'm out getting coffee every morning or when I'm
S2: just finished a massive keynote talk and walk off stage
S2: in front of a thousand people where I've just told
S2: my demons, I have a line of people that are
S2: waiting to come up to me and tell me their
S2: most traumatic moments. So you might say, well, you hypocrite,
S2: you started a charity and now I'm doing the thing
S2: you've asked me to do. Yes. With context though, right?
S2: We have to put a reasonable layer on some of
S2: this stuff. We don't want to swing too far either way.
S2: If everyone's talking vulnerably with no safety constraints at any
S2: point in time to anyone, in any environment, that's not good.
S2: But we also don't want people to walk around rigid
S2: and in silence either. We're looking for people to get
S2: conscious around how to have conversations that are helpful. Again,
S2: the reason why I'm passionate about this work that I'm
S2: doing is it gives you the nuances to make sure
S2: it's helpful and not hindering. Yeah, that person at the
S2: right time coming to you when you're in the headspace
S2: to be able to hold that space. What an incredible
S2: connection you guys would have had. But it's on them
S2: to also be conscientious of where you're at, too. Yes.
S1: Nailed it. It's hard. It's so hard to find that
S1: sweet spot and exactly what you just said. I am
S1: not great at it either. And I'm learning. And I
S1: feel like that this podcast has been such a great
S1: platform for myself and Elody to learn too, because there's
S1: so much that we go through and there's so much
S1: that we put out there and we try and help
S1: so many people, but often we're actually making the mistakes
S1: first to come and bring it out to you guys
S1: to find answers and solutions to better help not just us, but, well,
S1: not just you guys, but actually ourselves.
S2: Correct. I think the best type of expert is an explorer,
S2: not an authority figure. You know, it's someone who's like,
S2: I'm fucking rolling around here figuring it out as I go.
S2: You're welcome to come along versus I have all the answers,
S2: even the things I'm talking about. Now. This is stuff
S2: I've learned in my own life. I've then validated in research,
S2: and I try and do my best every day. Totally.
S2: But perfection is not the way to go.
S1: I love that even in the lead up to this chat,
S1: I'm like, oh my God, I'm so nervous. Like every chat,
S1: I get so nervous. And you know, some people I've
S1: they've written reviews. A few people have come like, you
S1: guys are shit podcasters. And I'm like, oh my God,
S1: I am not a professional speaker. I am not really
S1: a public speaker. I'm just getting on here and I'm
S1: doing my best. I'm trying to ask the questions that
S1: I want to know, and that you guys are going
S1: to get helpful. And we don't have to be perfect. Like,
S1: let's get on there. Let's get on here and make
S1: a mess of this because no one is perfect. And
S1: if you were perfect, it would actually probably be pretty
S1: boring to listen to.
S2: Amen. And I think that's such a good metaphor for
S2: having these real conversations. Let's get in there and make
S2: a mess of it. I couldn't have said it better myself.
S2: Where things go wrong is where you come into these
S2: scenarios thinking that you need to solve it. For someone
S2: thinking that the grief of a miscarriage is now on
S2: you as a supporter to extract from their soul. Of course,
S2: that's an overwhelming and impossible task if it's framed like that.
S2: But really all people are asking you to do is
S2: to sit in the mess with them for a little
S2: bit so that they feel like they're going through it together.
S2: We can get through anything so long as we go
S2: through it together. They're looking for your ear, not your advice.
S1: Yes.
S2: So mistake three is what we call the blind optimist,
S2: where we overly sugarcoat it and silver line it to
S2: avoid going toward the hard, dark, uncomfortable truth. And you
S2: know that you're you know, you're a magician if you
S2: say should or shouldn't too much, you know you're a
S2: thief if you say same or me too, too much.
S2: And you know that you're a blind optimist if you
S2: say at least so a textbook one.
S1: At least a.
S2: Textbook one in your space is at least you know
S2: you can get pregnant. Yes. And isn't that a dagger
S2: to the heart when you're like, I just lost a
S2: fucking life. Stop trying to tell me to see the
S2: fucking bright side. Fuck.
S1: You are just all over this chat, I swear to God. You, like,
S1: take the words straight out of my mouth. Like everything
S1: that you're saying, it's like, aha! Yes. The words at
S1: least are so bad. I mean, it's not. It doesn't
S1: even relate to miscarriage. Yes, it absolutely sucks. That one
S1: sentence is probably the worst sentence you can say to
S1: anyone when they've gone through a miscarriage, but in Lee's case,
S1: for example, she's lost the love of her life and
S1: she was able to retrieve Champy's sperm. And then someone's like,
S1: you know, at least you got mini out of it.
S1: It's like, no, no, no, no, I lost the love
S1: of my life, I love Minnie. Minnie is the best
S1: thing that's ever happened to me. But I would take my, my,
S1: the love of my life back at any point. So, like,
S1: just don't ever let those words come out of your
S1: mouth in any situation. I just think that they need
S1: to be removed from the dictionary because they actually make
S1: you feel much, much, much worse. They're never good. They're
S1: never good. I don't think we've here, I mean.
S2: Here's a real clue. I don't know if this resonates
S2: with you, but I try and live by it. And
S2: that's I will only ever help someone see the bright side.
S2: When I've earned the right first by sitting with them
S2: in the darkness. Yes. So unless I fully fucking know
S2: their pain, unless I have gone to extreme lengths to
S2: meet them where they are, I'm not going to tell
S2: them where they should be. Again, not putting a black
S2: and white approach here, looking at the grey because life
S2: is grey. That doesn't mean that you should or can
S2: never prompt people to see different perspectives in life. But
S2: it does mean when you contrast what could be against
S2: the direct pain that they need to grieve and feel.
S2: You're going to get them to deny and avoid their
S2: own pain if you just keep getting them to go
S2: elsewhere internally. Coming back to your original point, when we
S2: started this pod, it's not about you getting them to
S2: see the bright side is often not for them. It's
S2: that you don't want to sit in the mud right now.
S2: It's fucking awkward hanging around in this negativity. Let's change
S2: the vibe. So let's look at all this stuff and
S2: it's like, no, as a supporter, that's your shit. I'm
S2: actually okay here. I need to be here right now,
S2: in Elodie's case, remembering my the love of my life.
S2: But if you don't want to be in this, then
S2: you can go elsewhere.
S1: I think as well. That's like a really good point.
S1: And I was thinking about that and it might come
S1: across as quite selfish, but you know, everyone's going through
S1: shit at different times in their life. The shit pile
S1: is bigger and sometimes the shit pile is not so big.
S1: But you know, if your head deep in shit, for example,
S1: and your friend is also head deep in shit. It's
S1: quite hard for yourself to be like, how can I
S1: give myself to that person when I'm actually really, really
S1: struggling myself? Because often you do have to peel back
S1: the like the layers of the onion with them, and
S1: you have to sit in their shit and you have
S1: to go through it with them. But sometimes you don't
S1: want to make that move because you're like, where do
S1: I even find the capacity to help them when I'm
S1: really struggling to help myself? And I mean, for us,
S1: for L and I, often we it's a bit of
S1: a clusterfuck all over and we're all we're both going through.
S1: We I mean, we're pretty good at that where we
S1: just sit in each other's, like, craziness. Like we're like,
S1: oh my God, if we only had a TV show
S1: on this, it would be like a number one viewed
S1: show because there's just so much shit going on constantly.
S1: But I find that really hard. And we're probably I've
S1: probably taken a bit of a left turn here, but
S1: I think that that is like probably a reason why
S1: people don't sit in other people's shit because they're going
S1: through their own. Is that do you think that that's true?
S2: 100%. You know, you said the word capacity. It's a
S2: really good word in that, in that instance. So it's
S2: just being honest in those moments. I think with people
S2: when it's really hard and you're like, right now I
S2: can't get right down into the pit because I'll lose
S2: my footing to, are you okay? If you're patient with
S2: me as I go on a process of supporting you,
S2: and I'm going to be trying my best to to
S2: understand with the capacity that I have right now.
S1: Yeah, it's a hard one.
S2: It is a hard one. Which leads us to number four,
S2: the helicopter. The helicopter freaks out or freezes up when
S2: someone brings them any type of emotional distress and kind
S2: of loses themself in that person. Often correlated with an anxious,
S2: preoccupied attachment style, which a lot of people have. And
S2: there's no shame in that. You don't. You didn't get
S2: a choice over it. It's from our parents anyway. Um,
S2: and it's hardest when we care the most. So, parent
S2: to child, when your child is not okay and they
S2: bring you some pain, you almost don't separate that as theirs.
S2: It's now ours. And, um, but there is a reason
S2: why yin and yang are separate but together. An adult
S2: always needs to remain in their sovereignty in order for
S2: other people to be able to hang on to them
S2: as a stable object. Emotions are scientifically proven to be
S2: contagious up to like three degrees of separation. So if
S2: you imagine when someone's presenting their heart to you and
S2: it's ripped apart, you, you're standing there with a glass
S2: of water and a glass of gasoline. Like choose wisely.
S2: You can add to the contagion of pain by becoming
S2: a tornado of their pain and not staying in that
S2: really anchored position. Now people mishear me on this one
S2: and they think, what? So I just have to be
S2: strong all the time. And the answer is absolutely fucking
S2: not again. I created a charity of being vulnerable. But
S2: if you want to be helpful in that conversation as
S2: a supporter while you're wearing that hat in that moment, yes,
S2: you need to fucking anchor down. If that's what you
S2: want to be is helpful. You need to find something
S2: in you that you can stay stable on so that
S2: other people can come to shore using you as a
S2: life raft. Then if five minutes after that conversation ends,
S2: you need to fall apart. Fall apart? This whole system
S2: is just a series of dominoes where we're falling apart
S2: on each other. But like, you know, you travel a
S2: lot with with what you and Paul do and the
S2: lifestyle you lead. I don't know about you, but when
S2: the when the planes got turbulence, I look to the
S2: flight attendant to see if they're relaxed or not. That's
S2: how I know whether I should be scared. Mhm. Is
S2: like what's their reaction? Humans are doing that all day,
S2: every day with their emotions. They're like, I'm feeling anxious.
S2: Should I be feeling anxious? I'm going to check the
S2: emotional regulation of everyone else. So one of the greatest
S2: gifts you can give to other people you're trying to
S2: support is work on your own shit so that the
S2: washing machine is relatively clean, by no means perfect or fixed,
S2: but relatively clean, so that when they bring you dirty laundry,
S2: you don't give them dirty clothes back.
S1: I'm loving the analogies. It's so it's. Yeah, we love
S1: a metaphor. It's so it's so, so true. And as
S1: well for on the other hand, I when I was
S1: just recently in hospital trying to ask for help to
S1: it's like, actually let me get you, let me, let
S1: me get let you get the last. The last tip out.
S1: Last one. Let me get the last one out. And
S1: then I'm going to flip it. I'm going to flip
S1: the conversation. Yeah.
S2: So last one is the ostrich. The ostrich is kind
S2: of the opposite of the helicopter. The. Oh no, it's
S2: the I'm going to pretend that I didn't even see that.
S2: I assume that person's not okay. But this isn't my bag.
S2: You know, this isn't my jam. The whole emotional thing.
S2: It's usually from a dismissive attachment style. Again, no shame
S2: in that we probably weren't modeled healthy vulnerability as a child,
S2: if that's the way we're operating as an adult. And
S2: ostriches usually doubt their own ability to be helpful in
S2: those moments, or they're phobic and petrified of feeling any
S2: type of awkwardness. Now, the reality is, you got to
S2: get better at sitting in uncomfortable shit and feeling awkward.
S2: If you want to be a human being that is
S2: in any way, shape or form emotionally helpful and supportive,
S2: and that the first sign of tension or when someone's crying.
S2: For example, when I did my master's degree, I was
S2: so fascinated to learn that the worst thing you can
S2: do when someone's crying other than like, you know, be
S2: abusive is hand them a tissue. Because what it signals
S2: is clean yourself up and hurry up. So the best
S2: tissue in the world is three words take your time
S2: and then shut up. Then just stop. Do less. Let
S2: them paint the walls with their pain. Because crying is
S2: the nervous system's way of purging. It's trying to heal
S2: and you're trying to stop the healing.
S1: I just got goosebumps.
S2: And I'm going to link it back to your beautiful
S2: comment at the start. It's not about you. That tissue
S2: is about the supporter. I'm uncomfortable. I need a prop.
S2: Now lean in, say take your time and then be
S2: in what it is to be human. Which is it's
S2: fucking shit right now. Mhm.
S1: And even if you just sit and say nothing. Is
S1: that helping?
S2: Abso fucking lutely. It is like there's so much I
S2: posted about this on Instagram the other day. I was like,
S2: when did care become negligent? And what I mean by
S2: that is in so many conversations, we walk away and
S2: we're like, I wish I could have helped. I had
S2: no advice to give. And I was like, but you
S2: loved them just then, right? You loved them hard. And
S2: you got in there and you listened and you tried
S2: to understand them. That was your only job. If you're
S2: having a real conversation, you must get better at leaving
S2: that conversation knowing that you scored 100% success. And the
S2: problem is still 100% the same if that person feels
S2: totally fucking heard and supported. Yeah. So the equivalent in
S2: the grief, just to round out that analogy that we've
S2: kind of flushed through all the mistakes, um, a helicopter
S2: in the grief is like, well, I don't even know
S2: how you're dealing with this right now. I would be
S2: such a mess. And you and the ostrich would cross
S2: the other side of the road when they saw you
S2: walking toward them, because they wouldn't even know how to
S2: ask about your miscarriage. So this is the best summary
S2: of everything we've spoken about on how to make the
S2: transition toward a real conversationalist. The single most helpful thing
S2: you can do with someone experiencing grief is to say,
S2: what do you miss about that person the most? Um,
S2: or if they're not earthside say, what does this loss
S2: mean and represent to you? I.e., you go Directly toward
S2: the eye of the storm. That's so scary. Is there
S2: that we get better.
S1: Even you just saying that just then. I'm just thinking. Shit,
S1: how do you even. How do you even do that?
S1: That's such a scary thought to to go straight towards
S1: the eye of the storm of the problem.
S2: It is. Huh? It is.
S1: So in like context of talking miscarriage. I've just had
S1: a miscarriage. What? What? And you've just found out. What
S1: are you going to what? How are you going to
S1: approach this?
S2: So. So some of your listeners right now might be thinking,
S2: God right after a miscarriage, saying, what does that represent
S2: to you might be too hard, and you should use
S2: your own discretion and put relationship context, you know, into
S2: the mix here. But a principle that might help guide
S2: your sequencing is the bigger the bomb, the bigger the
S2: paddock it needs to explode. So what I mean by
S2: that is like the the heaviest something is, the less
S2: you should try and fix it or even be involved
S2: verbally or like brainstorming it out or any of that shit.
S2: Like I had a friend the other day just tell
S2: me that they have been diagnosed with cancer. Nothing I
S2: can say next is going to make that better. I
S2: just hugged them and I just breathed and we sat
S2: there for a few minutes, just in silence. And that
S2: silence was doing so much heavy lifting. We didn't get
S2: to do it at the top of this segment, but
S2: usually you start this with a shine and a shit, right?
S2: I think that's the name of the segment. And my dad.
S2: I just got home from America to to my dad
S2: being hospitalized for suicidal ideation last Sunday. And that's a
S2: lot for, you know, it's the first time this has
S2: ever happened. And I went in to the clinic and
S2: I saw him and he looked me in the eyes
S2: and said, the only reason I'm not taking my own
S2: life is because of you. That is awesome. As a son,
S2: that is the shine. But it's also shit to have
S2: your hero at his knees wanting to take that away
S2: from them. But I knew that all I could do
S2: is just sit there with him. There is a time
S2: and a place for us to talk about medication change
S2: and his sleep apnea, and the effect that that's having
S2: on his ability to self-regulate and all this other shit.
S2: But in that moment, he just needed to know I
S2: love him. And I held his hands and I looked
S2: him in the eye and said, I love you, and
S2: just stopped. And there was a turning point in his
S2: eyes there. He knew I had his back. He trusted that.
S2: I know he's going to get through this and will
S2: work out the details later, but that was a big
S2: bomb and I'm going to let that land. So if
S2: someone's just had a miscarriage, you might not go straight
S2: to what did that represent. But I'm sure if someone
S2: like Elodie said that to you, even the day of.
S2: What does this mean to you, Chlo? What's the hardest part?
S2: Right now, someone that safe. It's actually probably relieving to
S2: put some of that really, really deep emotional baggage somewhere else.
S3: Mhm.
S1: Yeah. Totally. And I there, there is like I guess
S1: like we've just gone kind of gone through and firstly
S1: I'm actually really sorry to hear about your dad. Um,
S1: and that's probably the wrong thing to say.
S2: No I don't want you to be petrified now to
S2: say the wrong thing either. The care translated right. And
S2: I think what a perfect thing for us to, to
S2: to dance on right now. After all that, it really
S2: doesn't matter what you say, so long as you just
S2: deeply fucking care. And you just you acknowledged it. First
S2: of all, you're not going to be like, at least
S2: he's in getting treatment or. Yeah, you just went there.
S2: I'm sorry for the pain. You acknowledge the pain and
S2: that's all that matters.
S1: And I think as well, with you saying that with
S1: what Elody is saying, what does this mean to you
S1: and exactly it needs to be context like in context
S1: with the person and how deep, how well you know them.
S1: But I think that that question as well, if that
S1: was being asked to me, that's actually really touching, because
S1: you then get to talk about your experience and, you know,
S1: what does this mean to you? It's like that baby
S1: meant everything to me. I've worked so hard, and it
S1: really triggers that conversation for the person who's suffering to
S1: be able to share as little or as as much
S1: as they would like. And that's what I love about
S1: this podcast. We get in here and it's almost therapeutic.
S1: And do you get up there and everything that you've
S1: been through, do you find it therapeutic to talk about things?
S2: Yeah for sure. I mean, this space gives back more
S2: than it takes, but it's a lot, right. And I yeah,
S2: I've had to build incredibly, um, present boundaries, knowing how
S2: far to lean in and when to to lean out,
S2: as I'm sure you have to navigating your journey now
S2: as a mama and a podcaster and a wife and
S2: all the other hats that you wear.
S1: Yeah, we've spoken a lot in this chat about helping
S1: others go through their struggles and how to kind of
S1: dive deeper into those conversations, but I want to kind
S1: of put the shoe on the other foot. And yeah,
S1: as an example, I've just had a baby. Obviously, it's
S1: something that I've wanted for my whole life. We've tried
S1: for five years, and I went through a fairly traumatic
S1: experience post birth with a lot of blood loss, and
S1: I remember getting back to my hospital room after being
S1: released from ICU and getting in there with Paul and
S1: like looking at my baby and just literally bawling my
S1: eyes out. Like it actually makes me like teary thinking
S1: about it. And I spent like the first week of post-birth,
S1: swear to God, like crying and crying and crying and crying.
S1: And I would speak to people on the phone and
S1: family and friends, and I would be like, oh my God,
S1: I am so obsessed with my baby. She's the best
S1: thing in the world. But I literally cannot stop crying.
S1: And I think, obviously there's this whole massive hormonal shift
S1: that women go through post-birth. But I felt like this weird.
S1: In my mind. I was just thinking, this is all
S1: you've ever wanted. Like, you should be so freaking happy
S1: right now. Why am I so sad? Like, why can't
S1: I stop crying? And you know, everyone wants to help.
S1: And everyone was there to put their hand out and say,
S1: you know, let's talk about this. But from my point
S1: of view, I was like, yes, I knew I needed
S1: to speak about it, and yes, I knew I needed
S1: to get help. But when you're in that moment, you're like,
S1: I couldn't fucking think of anything worse than having to
S1: deal with other people right now when you're so deep
S1: in that yourself. I don't know if that makes any
S1: sense at all, but I guess it was.
S2: Like a ton of.
S1: Sense. I guess it was like I was going through
S1: a bit of a bout of baby blues, and I
S1: completely empathise with people that suffer from postnatal depression, because
S1: I never really understood it when I didn't have a baby,
S1: because I was always like, you've got the baby. So like,
S1: how could you have depression? Or how could you be
S1: sad when you've got this miracle? And it fricking happened
S1: to me and you know it. I even said to Elody,
S1: I was like, I think I'm depressed. Like, I think
S1: I'm actually depressed. I'm going through this. I don't I
S1: actually don't know what's wrong with me. Um, and I
S1: think from understanding, when I put out saying that I
S1: was going to talk to you and, and I was
S1: saying to people, have you got any questions in the
S1: mental health space? And I am so sad looking at
S1: how many women have come to me to ask questions
S1: about postnatal. Not even it's not actually the person trying
S1: to what we've just spoken about trying to help someone
S1: with postnatal depression or baby blues or any of that.
S1: It's actually women asking, how the fuck do I help myself?
S1: And like, can we talk about this?
S2: Well, first of all, what came up for me as
S2: you were sharing that experience was when you said, crying, crying, crying.
S2: I heard grieving, grieving, grieving.
S3: Mhm.
S2: I heard your nervous system crying out with relief that
S2: this fear, this battle, this nightmare is over. Right. When
S2: my friends and Olympian and I said, what emotion occurred
S2: when you crossed the line and you won gold. And
S2: I was expecting it was to be like ecstasy, joy, elation.
S2: And it was relief. It was the removal of negative,
S2: not the presence of positive that shone brightly in that moment. Right.
S2: So what? Before your body and your brain and your
S2: heart can be happy, it first needs to celebrate the
S2: pain that's been removed. So what? That those tears were
S2: was like a someone winning Olympics. This is my whole
S2: life has been geared. The sacrifice that you did with the,
S2: you know, leading up to that, the hormones, the tension
S2: that put on the relationship with Paul, I imagine, and
S2: your family and your career planning and your future and
S2: all that shit culminates when you hold this child and
S2: you say, finally, I am blessed with this miracle, and
S2: it was worth it. But there's still so many parts inside,
S2: you know, that were holding the fucking tent together with
S2: fucking elastic bands and band aids, whilst you had to
S2: go and be an adult and deliver this baby. And
S2: it's like, okay, now we can fall apart.
S1: Yeah. And I think that's just that it being an
S1: adult and delivering this baby, and then all of a
S1: sudden you're just so broken and so like exactly what
S1: you just said. Relieved. But then you're like trying to
S1: care for this newborn. But there's still so much going on,
S1: and I think I even am getting teary talking to
S1: you about it because, like, it's bringing back so many emotions,
S1: just going, why was I like that? And I still
S1: it must be that I still have so much underlying
S1: grief from the miscarriages and from like, I don't know,
S1: I just just like exactly what we were just saying,
S1: how it's like created a bit of a mess. And
S1: I think that like, it's this whole conversation is like
S1: muddled my waters a little bit because I'm like, fuck,
S1: I have really just like pushed this all down and
S1: you don't really have time to, like, let this stuff surface.
S1: As a mother, when you are caring for a newborn
S1: because it really is full time. But you do have
S1: these moments in these conversations and like what I'm having
S1: with you right now, just going, nah, fuck. I have
S1: gone through a lot, actually. And you have. There's so
S1: much still. And do you think it's important for people
S1: like myself or not even just people that haven't gone
S1: through a lot? Do you think that it's important to
S1: put everything aside sometimes and do some work on yourself constantly? Like,
S1: do you think that that's important?
S2: Look, I this is going to be the lamest answer
S2: because I'm going to keep coming back to the answer
S2: is going to be somewhere in the middle. I think
S2: there's a time in life where you need to compartmentalize,
S2: put shit aside and press on. Yeah. Um, like as
S2: much as I'm a fan of, like, I'm the heart
S2: on my sleeve guy, I'm fucking more emotions based than
S2: most dudes I know. But still, I'm also one of
S2: the most resilient people I know. And when I need
S2: to drive, I'll drive hard. I also think there's a
S2: time when you need to put reality, and all the
S2: practical shit and the job and everything aside, and heal
S2: so that you don't bleed on people that didn't cut you.
S2: First and foremost, and for yourself and your own worthiness
S2: to feel happy, you need to do some deep healing
S2: at times. And I think it's knowing which season am
S2: I in? Am I in like get shit done season
S2: right now or am I in like slowing down and
S2: like tying some loose ends? It's not summer always. You know,
S2: there's reasons why the universe goes through four different cycles,
S2: like so much of life is a rhythm, and it's
S2: about finding equilibrium between two sides. And what I think
S2: is coming up for you now is you've had the baby.
S2: A lot's happen. The pod, you're still traveling, you're in
S2: another country right now and and your nervous system is like, cool,
S2: we can do that. We can push. So long as
S2: you also give me time to feel and grieve. And
S2: it doesn't mean that that that moment says that you're
S2: now in a sad chapter again, it's just releasing some
S2: of those stored memories and and heartaches that parts of
S2: you are still holding to be true. And it's kind
S2: of like updating the software to say it's time to
S2: let go now, because we've been blessed with a new
S2: reality that we can live in.
S3: Mhm.
S1: Yeah. It's because I think I used to be so
S1: good at it. I really prided myself in helping myself,
S1: you know, in after, before Bobby came along. That's what
S1: I really, you know, I want to get out there
S1: to help people. I want to have these hard conversations.
S1: I'm going I'm doing a lot of self-care. I'm meditating,
S1: which I haven't meditated once since Bobby was born, and
S1: I was. So he'd be stoked. He would be. He
S1: wouldn't be. He would not be happy with me saying that.
S1: But yeah, I was like that. I was so good
S1: at that in the past. And I feel like now
S1: that I've got Bobby and I feel like a lot
S1: of other women out there could probably resonate. Your whole
S1: life is just like dedicated to them in a way,
S1: and you've really put yourself aside. And I, I genuinely
S1: hand to my heart, don't know where right now I
S1: would find the time to do me if I was real. Like,
S1: I feel like I've evolved and I've, like, grown a
S1: lot and I've. And I'm so much better than I
S1: was immediately post-birth right now. So I'm actually feeling okay.
S1: I think that I was just had a little bit
S1: of a moment just then, but, um, yeah. Where like
S1: if I was still in those trenches where I was
S1: a few weeks ago, and you do have this newborn
S1: and you do have a chaotic life, and I'm trying
S1: to slow down a bit now that I'm here in
S1: Ibiza and I do have time to slow down, but
S1: some women don't have that. And I'm like, how? How
S1: do these women, what are some ways that these women
S1: can help themselves in amongst this chaos? Like, you know,
S1: you talk about human connection and having these conversations like
S1: who are they going to? I actually had this conversation
S1: with a girlfriend the other day who had had a
S1: baby a few weeks before me, and I said, you know,
S1: how are you going? And I'd only just had the
S1: capacity to even ask her how she was going, because
S1: I was just in this like, trench and she was
S1: just boundaries. She was just like, oh my God, it
S1: was so hard. My partner wasn't even able to take
S1: time off work. I didn't have any family or friends around.
S1: And I was just thinking, oh my God, I'm the
S1: worst fucking friend for a start. How lucky am I
S1: that I did have family and friends around me? How
S1: the fuck would I have coped without my tribe around me?
S1: And this poor friend did that all alone. And I'm
S1: just thinking, oh my God, that is just it is
S1: so sad and I just have so much like, I
S1: guess empathy is the word for women and families that
S1: go through this without the help. But I guess where
S1: I was going with that question at the start, like
S1: how do women, where do they go for help? How
S1: do they ask for help? Who are they going to
S1: for help? Like help me help them right now?
S2: Yeah. Well, seeing as you asked, I will give advice
S2: because usually I would just land that and say, yes,
S2: you are. You have a lot on and that's that's
S2: a lot. And I can see that you're feeling confused
S2: and you're working through it. And that would be enough,
S2: because I trust in your ability to know that you
S2: will work through this. This is a new thing. Just
S2: like any new thing, you will find your feet. I
S2: have absolutely no doubt. And given the values of and
S2: the behaviors you've demonstrated previously of tenacity and perseverance and care,
S2: you will thrive in terms of how other people do that. Look,
S2: my my heart bleeds for them as well. I think
S2: sometimes I get in a loop around how is life fair? Like,
S2: I still keep in touch with my ex-girlfriend and something
S2: happened with her recently that was just so unfair, and
S2: watching my dad be brought to his knees when he's
S2: a good guy and doesn't deserve that. It's unfair. And and,
S2: you know, watching the wars break out. And there are
S2: times when I personally struggle with the existential acceptance that
S2: life can be fucking cruel sometimes. I deal with that
S2: by trying to turn as much pain into meaning and purpose,
S2: by giving back to others as I can. But there
S2: are some things that are just shit, and so I
S2: think it's first, if you are in that position, letting
S2: yourself feel whatever you need to feel about that, whether
S2: that's I'm angry that I'm doing this on my own.
S2: You don't have to be in your full, rational mind
S2: all the time to be like, no, but I'm also
S2: grateful for this. That's going to come next. Right. You
S2: can go tidy up the mess in a second. I
S2: had a friend to use a story. She had such
S2: bad autoimmune issue that she would spend six plus months
S2: a year in hospital, and this has been happening since
S2: she was a teenager. She's unfortunately no longer with us,
S2: but I would go in to visit her in hospital
S2: and I'd ask like, how do you fight? Aren't you tired?
S2: And she's like, yeah, I'm fucking tired. But I have
S2: a pity party. Every so often I'll throw my fucking
S2: toys out of the cart. I'll look up at God
S2: and be like, you're not fucking real, because no one
S2: would let this happen. Because I'm actually an ambulance driver
S2: outside of this, and I'm sitting here in a hospital.
S2: This is just not okay. And then I once I
S2: felt it, I get up in bed again and I
S2: push on and I take an inventory of what strengths
S2: I do have, and I focus on the positive and
S2: I go, that's the yin to the yang. You know,
S2: you allow yourself to have a moment of whatever that
S2: moment looks like so that your nervous system can purge.
S2: Then you have space and capacity to come back into
S2: the wise mind and kind of pave a way forward.
S2: So don't deny yourself of what's true, I think, is
S2: the first step. Second step is reaching out to people
S2: who you trust, and that can have a real conversation
S2: with you and hold that space. And they're not scared
S2: of hearing the darkness and that they'll sit with you
S2: in it. And if you don't have one of those people,
S2: then thankfully there are resources like lifeline and and therapy
S2: that can help you work through that. The third thing
S2: I would say is be patient, especially in that example
S2: of of postnatal, as someone who's researched it and, and
S2: has have friends in it, by no means is this
S2: my specialty, but chemistry is going to have a massive
S2: part to play here that will normalize with time, and
S2: it may or may not also require medical interventions and help.
S2: But I'm sure you can relate to you know, you
S2: alluded to perhaps a mild version of it when you're
S2: in it, whether it's this or something else, you swear
S2: it's going to last forever and that you can't see
S2: the clouds for the sky. You know, it now feels
S2: like the clouds have always been the sky. And now
S2: it's forever going to be like this. And I think,
S2: if nothing else, just know this too shall pass.
S1: I say that a lot. I say that a lot.
S1: And it's really it was really hard to be in
S1: that position because I did. I have known a few
S1: people with postnatal depression when I was trying to conceive,
S1: and I was always just like, I just don't get it.
S1: Like how you've got you've got everything, you've got your baby,
S1: you've got a home, you travel like I've known a
S1: few people that are like that. And I'm like, how
S1: can you actually be depressed right now? But it's so
S1: weird when you say it. That's a chemical situation happening.
S1: I fully believe that now because like, I essentially was
S1: that person. And I also am finding it really difficult
S1: to have these chats on this podcast because a lot
S1: of our listeners are trying to conceive and I feel like, yeah,
S1: I feel so guilty talking about being so sad post
S1: having a baby when I was always like, I would
S1: always see people online, you know? And I'd be like,
S1: don't ever complain. Don't ever complain about having the baby
S1: because there's so many people out there that are, um,
S1: trying to conceive. And I just feel like the biggest hypocrite. Like, literally,
S1: I it breaks my fucking heart. No, it doesn't break. Well,
S1: it does break my heart, but it also, I feel
S1: so fucking guilty saying this in this space when I
S1: know there's so many of you out there that are like, own,
S1: that listen to us because they're struggling. And then here
S1: I am. I've struggled, I've done this struggle, I've had
S1: the baby and now I'm on the other side going,
S1: this is really hard. And I'm I'm not coping that well.
S1: And I've got the baby. I don't know, it's so weird.
S1: It's and I yeah. And I am so sorry to
S1: those people out there listening just going, you're a fucking
S1: you're shit. I can't believe you're doing this because it's.
S2: I don't think anyone's thinking that.
S1: I'm just trying to be honest and try to be like,
S1: this happens like, fuck, it's wild.
S2: Look, it makes sense that you're that you're feeling guilty, right?
S2: Because you were in those shoes for so long and
S2: and you would have given anything to be there. And
S2: now that you are here and you're feeling what you
S2: didn't expect to, you're coming to terms with how you
S2: reconcile being honest with also being grateful in a role
S2: model for what you needed at the time. Full stop.
S2: We're on a podcast, so I'll go on to give
S2: advice like my $0.02. Um, my $0.02 there is that like,
S2: you know, Brene Brown, who's someone I respect a lot.
S2: She talks about comparative suffering and how it doesn't serve anyone.
S2: You know, you're allowed to feel whatever you have and
S2: also be grateful for what you know. They don't have
S2: to cancel out each other. There's not this like, you know,
S2: zero sum equation where I can only feel that or
S2: that if someone else is happy, therefore I can't be
S2: as happy or no, fuck that. It can all be true.
S2: You can feel different to how you expected. Happy, sometimes. Sad, guilty.
S2: And all those things at the same time. And I
S2: think what people value the most is honesty around integrating
S2: all those different perspectives.
S1: Yeah, it's so hard. It's so hard to try to
S1: learn that juggle and. Yeah, and I do. I probably
S1: shouldn't apologise, but I do apologise for all those women
S1: out there because I definitely I know that I was
S1: always saying so much stuff about don't ever complain and
S1: here I am, so here we are. But that this
S1: chat has been so amazing and I think it's helped.
S1: So it's going to help so, so many people because
S1: this chat and from opening up the the chats on
S1: our socials last night, I've really become aware of you
S1: kind of just get lost in your own world for
S1: a second and you forget about other people and other
S1: people's struggles. And I did want to close this podcast
S1: out by answering a dear darlings for you all. And
S1: there are so many really important questions and topics that
S1: have been asked, and I think that we might do
S1: a bit of a part two bonus episode, um, for
S1: you guys at a later date, but let's just. Are
S1: you okay to answer two questions right now? Absolutely. That
S1: I think this one actually stood out to me the most.
S1: And and this person has said, what do you do
S1: when you're going through something really big, like cancer and
S1: a lot of friends disappear or don't acknowledge what you're
S1: going through?
S2: Yeah. Gosh, isn't that like a poetic place to, um,
S2: start to journey into the end of this, um, this
S2: chat because it picks up on so many threads that
S2: we've hit on. Right? It's not about you like that?
S2: If you're ghosting someone for a cancer diagnosis, you need
S2: to look in the mirror. Because we must be able
S2: to build the capacity to be there for people in
S2: moments where no one deserves to be alone. And if
S2: we can't, then we've got to go figure out how. Like,
S2: of course, there are times in our life where we
S2: are absolutely maxed out. And you mentioned one before. I'm
S2: kind of constantly ebbing and flowing between being like, if
S2: I go and help another person, I'm going to go
S2: off the deep end, so I need to pull back.
S2: But if if someone feels ghosted, whereby a whole network
S2: of people are opting out, that's like if that's considering
S2: that some people are having a bad day, everyone's not
S2: having a bad day and is at full max capacity.
S2: It means that their network is being really rigid and
S2: closed down, and so walk up to the mate with
S2: cancer and say, I don't know what to say, I'm
S2: fucking sorry this has happened. Here's a bench. I'm here
S2: to listen, and I won't say a word if you
S2: don't want me to. That's like. That's fucking courage. And
S2: that person would respect that 100 times more than you
S2: not having the perfect thing to say. Just be honest
S2: and say I give a fuck and you're not alone.
S2: Like ghosting someone because of your own insecurities when you
S2: have capacity to give is not acceptable in my opinion.
S1: And being the person with cancer, how do they go
S1: about this when their friends are kind of ghosting? Do
S1: you think that they should reach out to them, or
S1: should they look elsewhere? And you know, they've got their
S1: core friendship group? I mean, I'm just making this as
S1: an example, but if they've got their core friendship group
S1: that aren't serving them, where else do they go when
S1: they really fucking need someone to talk to or a
S1: shoulder to cry on?
S2: Yeah, I think then if I was in that situation,
S2: I would go to specific support groups for that issue,
S2: because if you're feeling that isolated, alone and misunderstood, you
S2: need to quickly remedy that and overcorrect to like hyper understanding.
S2: So I would go then to a cancer support group.
S3: Yeah.
S1: Yeah, I actually leant on a lot of that when
S1: I was going through my fertility struggles going. There's so
S1: many Facebook groups out there that they get it and
S1: they talk about it 24 over seven. And even if
S1: you don't want to be asking the questions, I can
S1: guarantee you someone else is going to ask the question
S1: very quickly on there because it constantly they're evolving. And
S1: then there's so many comments and people trying to, you know,
S1: help and offer advice. And yeah, I think that that's
S1: a really good one as well. Okay. The last question
S1: that someone's written in was how do I answer the question,
S1: how are you? When I'm struggling with my mental health.
S1: I'm in the fertility trenches, but I don't want to
S1: burden my friends and family. I really want to be
S1: honest with the struggle and explain why I've been so withdrawn,
S1: but I'm not sure how.
S2: Yeah. Great question. So for this one I'd say person,
S2: place and time. So check in with yourself and be like,
S2: is this someone person wise that can genuinely hold space
S2: for more than just a tick the box answer? Can
S2: I truly get real? Second is, is this the right place?
S2: Third is is this the right time? And you need
S2: three of three. And in those moments, if someone says,
S2: how are you and you feel fraudulent, saying, I'm good
S2: if you're not. Say, there's some stuff going on, now
S2: is probably not the right time. If you are interested
S2: and you have capacity, then we'd love to check in
S2: with you. When we both have some headspace to be
S2: able to get into it properly. But I'm, I'm I'm
S2: seeking support and I'm doing okay for now.
S1: And then what happens if they do want to talk
S1: about it though?
S2: And if you are also happy to talk about it
S2: with them and you consent to that, then allow them
S2: to organize that time and place, and you be an
S2: active member in participating in that. Yeah.
S1: Oh, yeah. The questions are so hard. But like you said,
S1: you've got to be a big boy and just go
S1: go in for the the eye of the storm. It's scary.
S1: And I think as well, in answer to this person's question,
S1: just from my experience, how they're saying, how do you
S1: answer that question? How are you when you are struggling?
S1: I think you don't actually have to be strong, like
S1: you don't have to be withdrawn. And I think I
S1: know that naturally you want to be away. It's super important.
S1: And from my experience and like, I don't want to
S1: be flipping this on me, but I'm just trying to
S1: give an example like, yeah, please, you do need to
S1: find that person. And for that person for me is
S1: generally elody sometimes it's not even Paul. Elody is like
S1: my rock. She's like my emotional support animal. Vice versa.
S1: We we definitely deal with things completely differently like she will.
S1: A lot of the time, bottle things up and keep
S1: things internal because that's how she copes and that's her
S1: coping mechanism and sometimes her bucket. And like what Cooper
S1: likes to say, he's your bucket gets full and full
S1: and full and full until it to the point where
S1: you do need to sit down with someone and you
S1: are at the verge of breaking. Whereas me personally, I
S1: like to get it out straight away and she's my person.
S1: That if I'm not doing well, I don't even need
S1: to say anything to her. Like I'll pick up the
S1: phone and I'll just end up in tears. And she's like, okay,
S1: let's sit down what's going on? And I'll let her
S1: know straight away. So it's it's all relative to the
S1: context and how you're feeling at the time and finding
S1: that one person. And like you said earlier, like if
S1: you don't have that one person, there are so many
S1: places that you can go for help. There's help lines
S1: will actually list. I'll list a bunch of them in
S1: the show notes. So if you are listening and you
S1: don't have your person, please reach out and get help
S1: from these different. There's hotlines, there's chats. If you don't
S1: want to speak to someone on the phone, there's there's
S1: so many different ways that you can get help and
S1: feel heard and people with experience to help you back. Um,
S1: so I just really want to say thank you so much, Mitch, for,
S1: by the way, I'm going to get your book. I
S1: haven't read it, but I would love to read your book.
S3: We'll get you a copy for sure.
S1: To get it on my Kindle.
S3: Absolutely.
S1: Um, I will also put a link in our show
S1: notes as well. For anyone that wants to read Mitch's book,
S1: you can follow him on Instagram. We'll link his Instagram.
S1: It's at Mitch Dot Wallace w a l l I s.
S1: He's also got a podcast. You can listen to his podcast,
S1: but I've linked everything in the show notes and I really,
S1: honestly appreciate you so much. Mitch. And I knew this
S1: conversation was going to be great, but I think it's
S1: it's over exceeded my expectations. And yeah, I really appreciate
S1: you coming on here. So thanks so much.
S2: My absolute pleasure. And thanks for being such a authentic
S2: and bright spirit in the world. I think we need
S2: more people like you, and it's been an honor to
S2: to hang out with you for an hour or so.
S1: Oh, you're amazing. And I will definitely come back to this, everyone.
S1: And if you have any other questions that you would
S1: like us to touch on, please email us. Probably get
S1: lost on Instagram. So email me at hello darling Shine.com
S1: and we'll make sure we add that to our list.
S1: And thank you guys or thank you Mitch and we
S1: hope you guys really enjoyed that chat.
UU: Oh we're always.