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UU: Listener. We're. Always here for you.

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S1: You're listening to Darling Shine, a podcast by myself, LED

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S1: Zeppelin and me. Chloe Fisher. A place where we ground womanhood.

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S1: Unspoken experiences. From grief to fertility and everything in between.

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S1: Join us while we transform our pain into power. Encompassing

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S1: all emotions, ugly and beautiful. Darlene shine is your chosen

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S1: family and your survival kit for the unexpected shit life

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S1: throws at you. Hey darlings. So today we're talking about

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S1: mental health. So if you're struggling with your own mental health,

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S1: there'll be some resources available in the show notes. So

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S1: Mitch Wallis is not just a mental health expert. He's

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S1: a passionate advocate, speaker, and the founder of Heart on

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S1: My Sleeve, which is a global movement that encourages open

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S1: and honest conversations about mental health. Mitch's journey began with

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S1: his own struggles with anxiety and depression, and it led

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S1: him to share his story and inspire millions around the world.

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S1: With a background in psychology and a personal mission to

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S1: change the way we talk about mental health, Mitch has

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S1: become a leading voice in the field, known for his

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S1: raw authenticity and deep compassion. In today's episode, we will

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S1: be exploring some strategies in which you can help friends

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S1: struggling with miscarriage who are grieving some strategies in how

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S1: to help yourself. We're going to be talking about postpartum

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S1: depression baby blues. So whether you're seeking advice for yourself

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S1: or someone that you love, this conversation is one that

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S1: you definitely don't want to miss. So without further ado,

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S1: let's welcome Mitch Wallace to the show. Welcome, Mitch.

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S2: Chloe, you're a legend. I'm so stoked to be here.

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S2: I'm a massive fan of your family. Coop's a good

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S2: mate of mine, and I just respect his whole demeanor.

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S2: Every time I see him, I leave feeling lighter and brighter,

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S2: which I just think is such a rare, rare attribute

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S2: in people these days. And I followed you and your

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S2: journey for a long time. I think your honesty and

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S2: vulnerability through your pregnancy journey was inspiring to say the least. Um,

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S2: and big fan of Phish's music and him representing us

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S2: from Down Under here, so it's an absolute pleasure to

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S2: be here.

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S1: Oh, yay! I'm very excited for this chat. Thanks so much, Mitch.

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S1: So someone's lost their loved one and you're feeling like

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S1: you need to speak to them about it. You need

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S1: to ask if they're okay. What is some of the

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S1: ways that you can speak to this person without, you know,

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S1: that just being that texting them saying, are you okay? Or,

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S1: you know, how do we delve deeper into that conversation

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S1: with these people?

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S2: Yeah. Good question. So I've kind of devoted the last

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S2: six years of my life to answering that ideally in

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S2: the best way possible outside of someone getting a psychology

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S2: College degree so that non-clinicians i.e. mums, dads, brothers, sisters, co-workers, people,

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S2: managers can be there for important people in moments that

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S2: matter most when they're in emotional pain. Shameless plug wrote

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S2: a book called Real Conversations A five step Framework to

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S2: Connect with confidence, coming out September 3rd in Australia. So

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S2: get a copy. But I'm going to touch on some

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S2: of the key concepts from that book in this talk

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S2: so that if you can't be bothered reading it, you'll

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S2: have what you need to still create actionable difference. So

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S2: we're spending more money on mental health services. Charities are

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S2: getting more visibility, stigma is reducing, blah blah blah. But

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S2: loneliness has never been higher. Suicide stats are soaring and

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S2: mental illness is rampant. So there has to be a disconnect.

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S2: And I've been lucky enough to study under some of

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S2: the leading thought leaders globally who have literally written the

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S2: book on attachment style and parenting. Like Harvard professors, psychiatrists.

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S2: I as well have a master's degree in clinical psychology

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S2: from Columbia. And I've struggled with this for 20 years,

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S2: and I kind of went back and thought to myself, well,

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S2: what has been pivotal in my journey? And then what

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S2: does the research say? And without a doubt, the single

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S2: greatest influence to my own well-being and the reason that

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S2: I chose to stay here on earth was because of

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S2: my mum. My mum is my guardian angel. Such a

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S2: rock solid human. And I tried to work out well.

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S2: What was she doing so well that potentially other people

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S2: don't have a natural inclination for? Not by virtue of malice,

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S2: but by just a lack of education. And what did

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S2: she happen to get lucky with and do right? And

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S2: it turns out that what she did well is also

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S2: what the research says works the most, and that is

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S2: that human relationships are without a doubt the single greatest

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S2: influence to our wellbeing Being outside of genetics, who you

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S2: have in your life is the number one predictor of

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S2: happiness and the number one predictor of unhappiness. Harvard did

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S2: a longitudinal study, and they looked at tons of people

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S2: across the lifespan, 85 years plus. And they tried to

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S2: boil down the most impactful variable to when someone's on

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S2: their deathbed. They said, I've lived a good life. And

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S2: it was the quality of their relationships more than their

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S2: socioeconomic status and everything else that was the driver of happiness.

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S2: On the other side of the coin, when they tried

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S2: to look at, well, what is the best thing that

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S2: we can do to buffer against the inevitable shit that

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S2: life is going to throw us? And it was supportive relationships.

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S2: It literally was the difference between two people seeing this

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S2: same traumatic event, one person being highly symptomatic later in

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S2: life and others not being so badly affected was how

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S2: connected they felt through it. There's no doubt That humans

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S2: need each other more than anything else, and our longevity

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S2: as a species and our ability to reverse this worrying

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S2: mental illness trend is going to be made or broken

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S2: on our ability to have real conversations. However, the biggest

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S2: thing I've found is that people have the wrong definition

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S2: of helpful when they're trying to support someone in emotional pain.

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S2: Up until now, we've walked around with kind of one

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S2: hammer in our tool belt, expecting that that's going to

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S2: be the solve for every conversation that we have. And

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S2: I call that a transactional conversation whereby our intention is

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S2: to fix and solve. And it makes sense. Right? Because

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S2: all of school, we are incentivized for how good we

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S2: can be at solving problems. And then we're going to

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S2: university and the workplace, and we're promoted and compensated on

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S2: how smart we are at making problems go away. So

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S2: that's all well and good. But the problem is, is

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S2: that thinking one tool will handle every situation is like

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S2: expecting that you can assemble a house with just that instrument.

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S2: It's not going to happen. If something is practical, it's

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S2: fine to fix the problem. If something is emotional, your

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S2: goal is to understand the person. Now that might seem

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S2: very small, but in practice it has massive consequences.

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S1: It's so interesting that you say that because I remember

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S1: back maybe two years ago when I was really struggling

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S1: and we did a podcast episode on like Helping Friends.

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S1: What to say when your friend is going through like

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S1: fertility struggles. And the number one thing that I said

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S1: was educate yourself. Actually going away and educating yourself on

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S1: that topic or educating yourself around miscarriages, for example. And

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S1: for that person who is struggling to listen to the

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S1: friend that's gone out of their way, given their time

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S1: to try and understand and educate themselves around that. It's

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S1: so touching. Even though it's not going to help really

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S1: fix your problem, to have an understanding of your friend

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S1: that's trying to do help outside of just like I'm

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S1: thinking of you or are you okay? It's like it's

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S1: so special.

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S2: And what you're touching on there, Clay, is that what

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S2: that symbolizes is that they care, right? And so, so care.

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S2: It's the active ingredient in a real conversation. It's advice

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S2: is not the thing that gets people better. So I'll

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S2: use one more bit of research, and then I'll stop

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S2: being a nerd and talk from the heart. But um,

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S2: different people have different learning styles on listening to pods,

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S2: so if you're data driven, then geek out for one

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S2: more minute before I switch gears. But when I was

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S2: writing the book, I tried to find in the literature,

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S2: why does psychotherapy work? Like when you go to a

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S2: counselor and you talk about your feelings and stuff, why

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S2: do some people get better and others don't. And what

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S2: was proven in a meta analysis, which means basically studies

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S2: of studies was it didn't really matter whether someone did

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S2: cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavioral therapy or whatever intervention

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S2: a therapist uses. The main predictor of a therapeutic outcome

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S2: was the quality of the relationship formed, i.e. how seen, heard, understood,

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S2: and cared about. Because the patient has a natural healing

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S2: mechanism inside themselves, the therapist's job is not to fix

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S2: something that's broken, but to enable the self-healing capacity to

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S2: come back online. And that most pain emotionally is not

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S2: the problem. It's the shame. It's the shame, loneliness, frustration

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S2: and guilt. It's not the problem itself when you're having

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S2: a real conversation, if all you do is hold back

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S2: on giving advice and you what we call in in

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S2: our world. Sit in the mud with someone instead of

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S2: trying to drag them out of it. They will feel better.

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S2: That's so.

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S1: True. Yes. So?

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S2: So what is understanding a person and sitting in the

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S2: mud actually look like in practice, versus trying to fix

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S2: their problem and take them out of the mud. So

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S2: there's there's five things to avoid. And I'm going to

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S2: put a character name on them. Right. So let's assume

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S2: that someone's just had a miscarriage. The first mistake to

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S2: avoid is being a magician. So that is thinking that

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S2: you can wave a magic wand and just take someone's

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S2: problem away. A magician would say something like, you should

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S2: talk to Monash IVF. They're an amazing fertility vendor and

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S2: they'll be able to get you back on track. And

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S2: you just need to use an embryo instead of an egg.

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S2: And has Paul gone and got tests to make sure

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S2: that he's fertile? All this stuff, when you're actually just

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S2: grieving the loss of a life and you do not

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S2: want to hear that shit right now, There is a

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S2: time and a place to pick up and move forward. Absolutely.

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S2: We're not talking about wallowing, but if the first thing

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S2: you do is jump straight to a solution, that person

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S2: will feel like something that's broken in need of repair.

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S2: And you won't actually attend to the swelling, which is

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S2: a broken heart. So it doesn't mean you can't give advice.

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S2: It just cannot be straight off the bat that you

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S2: try and wave this magic wand and clue. People all day,

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S2: every day don't even realize they've switched from a practical

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S2: conversation to an emotional one. Like, for example, your partner

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S2: gets home from work and says, I'm feeling really distant

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S2: from you at the moment. And you go, oh, this

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S2: is a practical conversation. Okay, well, let's go for dinner

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S2: on Saturday night, when actually, that was an emotional conversation.

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S2: And what they wanted to hear was, shit, how long

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S2: have you felt that? What do you think's is driving that?

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S2: And getting curious around the person? Not the problem.

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S1: You're just banging on everything right now. That makes so

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S1: much sense. I think I'm getting better at asking the,

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S1: you know, diving deeper into the conversations. But naturally, as humans,

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S1: I feel like we just try and mask the problem

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S1: and sort of like divert the attention to something else.

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S2: Yeah, yeah. And as I said, it's really natural because

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S2: that's the way our society is structured. That's the way

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S2: our brains are hardwired. We've kind of part of the

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S2: reason we're in such a shit show mentally, is that

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S2: we've lost a lot of heart. We've just we operate

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S2: so much from the head nowadays, but we are a social,

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S2: emotional species that has learned how to think, not the

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S2: other way around. And we've forgotten a big part of

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S2: who we are, and we don't like seeing people in pain.

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S2: So we go back to our traditional tool, a hammer,

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S2: and we try and exchange information. But what people are

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S2: looking for is, is connection, which is to feel understood. stood.

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S2: So mistake number one, don't offer a solution straight away

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S2: and let them ask for it as an adult if

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S2: they want your input and advice. Second mistake people make

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S2: is being a thief. Again, no shame around these mistakes.

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S2: I do them all the time. So the thief jumps

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S2: in with a same or a me too and steals

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S2: the focus. So let's say you approached a friend and

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S2: said I just had a miscarriage and they go, oh

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S2: my God, I had a miscarriage three years ago. Bless, right?

225
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S2: They want to be like, no, you don't need to

226
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S2: feel alone or exposed or vulnerable. I'm right there with you.

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S2: I get it so much because I it happened to me.

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S2: The problem, though, when that happens again straight off the bat,

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S2: is you steal that person's opportunity to be validated for

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S2: their pain, and then it becomes a competitive bidding war

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S2: around who's felt worse. And the person in pain now

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S2: feels like they need to support you when they don't

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S2: have any capacity right now to even support themselves.

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S1: I feel like this is the biggest one.

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S2: It's it's a big one for sure. It's a silent

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S2: connection killer because we forget that people do genuinely want

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S2: that moment to be understood before we make it about

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S2: someone else. Just to reiterate, as you said, Chlo, we

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S2: can see ourselves in a lot of these. And it's

240
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S2: not to shame. It's just not helpful when you're having

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S2: an emotional conversation because it's most helpful for them to

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S2: feel understood. Have you had instances where someone has shifted

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S2: the focus away from you during your hardest times?

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S1: Oh, definitely. And I think as well I can take

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S1: a note out of this book too, because I think

246
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S1: even sometimes when I'm talking to Paul about things like,

247
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S1: I'll say something to him or he'll say something to me,

248
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S1: and then you immediately talk about yourself or give an

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S1: example of. Oh yeah, well, yesterday I wanted to get

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S1: this done, but I didn't get to get it done

251
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S1: because you were doing it and they're like, well, why

252
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S1: are you flipping this on you? I'm trying to tell

253
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S1: you that I'm struggling with this, but now you're making

254
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S1: me feel bad because you didn't get to do it yesterday. Yeah, yeah.

255
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S2: We're in a comparison war.

256
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S1: It's really difficult. And I and I think as well,

257
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S1: for exactly the example that you just made in the

258
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S1: miscarriage world, it's so common for people to they think

259
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S1: that you're helping them out by telling them that you've

260
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S1: had a miscarriage and, and then all of a sudden

261
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S1: the roles flipped and you're trying to help this person,

262
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S1: but you're deep in it, and often it's actually quite

263
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S1: triggering to I find sometimes. Yeah, don't take this the

264
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S1: wrong way. Anyone and I don't want to sound like rude, but,

265
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S1: you know, I might be in these scenarios where I'm

266
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S1: at a nightclub trying to enjoy myself. And I've had

267
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S1: this when I've had a miscarriage previously and I've just

268
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S1: had it. I've spoken about it on the podcast. I'm

269
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S1: out having a good time trying to take my mind

270
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S1: off things and some will come straight up to me.

271
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S1: Trauma dump on you. And it's. I find I feel

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S1: so selfish saying that. But that is so difficult when

273
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S1: someone comes up to you, like this whole conversation that

274
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S1: we're having right now. I'm kind of like shooting myself

275
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S1: in the foot here because it's very much like, how

276
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S1: can you talk to these people and how can you

277
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S1: start these conversations? And that is a way that people

278
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S1: do start these conversations. But it often upsets you even

279
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S1: more because then you feel like you need to comfort them.

280
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S1: And it's like this whole cycle and I struggle. I

281
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S1: actually struggle with that really hard. And I still struggle

282
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S1: with that. And I know I'm a massive advocate in

283
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S1: the miscarriage space. I'm the member, like on the board

284
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S1: of the Pink Elephant Support Network. And you'd think that

285
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S1: that I would be a poster girl for people to

286
00:16:26,260 --> 00:16:28,600
S1: come up to and talk to about that, but it

287
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S1: actually is really, really triggering still and really upsets me

288
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S1: when I do have to talk about these experiences. So

289
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S1: I don't know. I'm actually stuck in a bit of

290
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S1: a pickle there, but I feel that in so many

291
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S1: levels on both sides as well.

292
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S2: Can I just like, reflect back on that? Because I

293
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S2: think it's a really important point. And I want to say,

294
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S2: which is a good segue to actually mistake number three.

295
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S2: Don't be a blind optimist. You are a role model

296
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S2: for so many people in a similar situation. And I

297
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,080
S2: don't know about you, but at least in my life,

298
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,080
S2: the answer is never found in black and white. It's

299
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S2: somewhere in the middle. So using this example, we're not

300
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S2: like I have a charity called Heart on My sleeve

301
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S2: that I founded. I am the biggest advocate for people

302
00:17:12,130 --> 00:17:15,310
S2: speaking up when they're not okay. But just like you,

303
00:17:15,340 --> 00:17:18,760
S2: when I'm out getting coffee every morning or when I'm

304
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S2: just finished a massive keynote talk and walk off stage

305
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S2: in front of a thousand people where I've just told

306
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:26,439
S2: my demons, I have a line of people that are

307
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,780
S2: waiting to come up to me and tell me their

308
00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:33,389
S2: most traumatic moments. So you might say, well, you hypocrite,

309
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S2: you started a charity and now I'm doing the thing

310
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S2: you've asked me to do. Yes. With context though, right?

311
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S2: We have to put a reasonable layer on some of

312
00:17:42,060 --> 00:17:45,420
S2: this stuff. We don't want to swing too far either way.

313
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S2: If everyone's talking vulnerably with no safety constraints at any

314
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S2: point in time to anyone, in any environment, that's not good.

315
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S2: But we also don't want people to walk around rigid

316
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S2: and in silence either. We're looking for people to get

317
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S2: conscious around how to have conversations that are helpful. Again,

318
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S2: the reason why I'm passionate about this work that I'm

319
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S2: doing is it gives you the nuances to make sure

320
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S2: it's helpful and not hindering. Yeah, that person at the

321
00:18:15,570 --> 00:18:18,990
S2: right time coming to you when you're in the headspace

322
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S2: to be able to hold that space. What an incredible

323
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S2: connection you guys would have had. But it's on them

324
00:18:25,109 --> 00:18:29,430
S2: to also be conscientious of where you're at, too. Yes.

325
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S1: Nailed it. It's hard. It's so hard to find that

326
00:18:34,210 --> 00:18:37,630
S1: sweet spot and exactly what you just said. I am

327
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S1: not great at it either. And I'm learning. And I

328
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,880
S1: feel like that this podcast has been such a great

329
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S1: platform for myself and Elody to learn too, because there's

330
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S1: so much that we go through and there's so much

331
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S1: that we put out there and we try and help

332
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S1: so many people, but often we're actually making the mistakes

333
00:18:54,910 --> 00:18:58,180
S1: first to come and bring it out to you guys

334
00:18:58,180 --> 00:19:01,990
S1: to find answers and solutions to better help not just us, but, well,

335
00:19:02,020 --> 00:19:04,900
S1: not just you guys, but actually ourselves.

336
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,500
S2: Correct. I think the best type of expert is an explorer,

337
00:19:08,530 --> 00:19:11,860
S2: not an authority figure. You know, it's someone who's like,

338
00:19:11,859 --> 00:19:14,560
S2: I'm fucking rolling around here figuring it out as I go.

339
00:19:14,590 --> 00:19:18,730
S2: You're welcome to come along versus I have all the answers,

340
00:19:18,730 --> 00:19:21,730
S2: even the things I'm talking about. Now. This is stuff

341
00:19:21,730 --> 00:19:24,639
S2: I've learned in my own life. I've then validated in research,

342
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,770
S2: and I try and do my best every day. Totally.

343
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,160
S2: But perfection is not the way to go.

344
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S1: I love that even in the lead up to this chat,

345
00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:33,960
S1: I'm like, oh my God, I'm so nervous. Like every chat,

346
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,270
S1: I get so nervous. And you know, some people I've

347
00:19:36,270 --> 00:19:38,430
S1: they've written reviews. A few people have come like, you

348
00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:41,100
S1: guys are shit podcasters. And I'm like, oh my God,

349
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:43,980
S1: I am not a professional speaker. I am not really

350
00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:47,010
S1: a public speaker. I'm just getting on here and I'm

351
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S1: doing my best. I'm trying to ask the questions that

352
00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:51,719
S1: I want to know, and that you guys are going

353
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,870
S1: to get helpful. And we don't have to be perfect. Like,

354
00:19:54,869 --> 00:19:57,480
S1: let's get on there. Let's get on here and make

355
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,900
S1: a mess of this because no one is perfect. And

356
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:03,000
S1: if you were perfect, it would actually probably be pretty

357
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,230
S1: boring to listen to.

358
00:20:04,260 --> 00:20:07,830
S2: Amen. And I think that's such a good metaphor for

359
00:20:07,859 --> 00:20:10,710
S2: having these real conversations. Let's get in there and make

360
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:13,260
S2: a mess of it. I couldn't have said it better myself.

361
00:20:13,590 --> 00:20:16,380
S2: Where things go wrong is where you come into these

362
00:20:16,380 --> 00:20:19,379
S2: scenarios thinking that you need to solve it. For someone

363
00:20:19,410 --> 00:20:22,109
S2: thinking that the grief of a miscarriage is now on

364
00:20:22,140 --> 00:20:25,860
S2: you as a supporter to extract from their soul. Of course,

365
00:20:25,859 --> 00:20:29,450
S2: that's an overwhelming and impossible task if it's framed like that.

366
00:20:29,450 --> 00:20:32,419
S2: But really all people are asking you to do is

367
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S2: to sit in the mess with them for a little

368
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,119
S2: bit so that they feel like they're going through it together.

369
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,090
S2: We can get through anything so long as we go

370
00:20:41,090 --> 00:20:44,750
S2: through it together. They're looking for your ear, not your advice.

371
00:20:44,780 --> 00:20:45,470
S1: Yes.

372
00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:49,760
S2: So mistake three is what we call the blind optimist,

373
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:54,320
S2: where we overly sugarcoat it and silver line it to

374
00:20:54,350 --> 00:21:00,140
S2: avoid going toward the hard, dark, uncomfortable truth. And you

375
00:21:00,140 --> 00:21:02,689
S2: know that you're you know, you're a magician if you

376
00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:04,970
S2: say should or shouldn't too much, you know you're a

377
00:21:04,970 --> 00:21:07,250
S2: thief if you say same or me too, too much.

378
00:21:07,250 --> 00:21:09,560
S2: And you know that you're a blind optimist if you

379
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,770
S2: say at least so a textbook one.

380
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:13,460
S1: At least a.

381
00:21:13,460 --> 00:21:18,080
S2: Textbook one in your space is at least you know

382
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,260
S2: you can get pregnant. Yes. And isn't that a dagger

383
00:21:21,260 --> 00:21:23,720
S2: to the heart when you're like, I just lost a

384
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,910
S2: fucking life. Stop trying to tell me to see the

385
00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:29,129
S2: fucking bright side. Fuck.

386
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,180
S1: You are just all over this chat, I swear to God. You, like,

387
00:21:33,210 --> 00:21:36,420
S1: take the words straight out of my mouth. Like everything

388
00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:40,800
S1: that you're saying, it's like, aha! Yes. The words at

389
00:21:40,830 --> 00:21:44,100
S1: least are so bad. I mean, it's not. It doesn't

390
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:47,340
S1: even relate to miscarriage. Yes, it absolutely sucks. That one

391
00:21:47,340 --> 00:21:50,280
S1: sentence is probably the worst sentence you can say to

392
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:55,859
S1: anyone when they've gone through a miscarriage, but in Lee's case,

393
00:21:55,859 --> 00:21:58,710
S1: for example, she's lost the love of her life and

394
00:21:58,710 --> 00:22:02,670
S1: she was able to retrieve Champy's sperm. And then someone's like,

395
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:04,320
S1: you know, at least you got mini out of it.

396
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,170
S1: It's like, no, no, no, no, I lost the love

397
00:22:07,170 --> 00:22:10,230
S1: of my life, I love Minnie. Minnie is the best

398
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:13,890
S1: thing that's ever happened to me. But I would take my, my,

399
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,200
S1: the love of my life back at any point. So, like,

400
00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:19,440
S1: just don't ever let those words come out of your

401
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,320
S1: mouth in any situation. I just think that they need

402
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,850
S1: to be removed from the dictionary because they actually make

403
00:22:25,850 --> 00:22:29,750
S1: you feel much, much, much worse. They're never good. They're

404
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:35,930
S1: never good. I don't think we've here, I mean.

405
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:44,840
S2: Here's a real clue. I don't know if this resonates

406
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,460
S2: with you, but I try and live by it. And

407
00:22:46,460 --> 00:22:50,090
S2: that's I will only ever help someone see the bright side.

408
00:22:50,090 --> 00:22:53,000
S2: When I've earned the right first by sitting with them

409
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,840
S2: in the darkness. Yes. So unless I fully fucking know

410
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,280
S2: their pain, unless I have gone to extreme lengths to

411
00:23:01,310 --> 00:23:03,680
S2: meet them where they are, I'm not going to tell

412
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,830
S2: them where they should be. Again, not putting a black

413
00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:09,170
S2: and white approach here, looking at the grey because life

414
00:23:09,170 --> 00:23:13,760
S2: is grey. That doesn't mean that you should or can

415
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:18,860
S2: never prompt people to see different perspectives in life. But

416
00:23:18,859 --> 00:23:23,040
S2: it does mean when you contrast what could be against

417
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,670
S2: the direct pain that they need to grieve and feel.

418
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:29,340
S2: You're going to get them to deny and avoid their

419
00:23:29,340 --> 00:23:32,160
S2: own pain if you just keep getting them to go

420
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,639
S2: elsewhere internally. Coming back to your original point, when we

421
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,840
S2: started this pod, it's not about you getting them to

422
00:23:39,869 --> 00:23:42,690
S2: see the bright side is often not for them. It's

423
00:23:42,690 --> 00:23:44,550
S2: that you don't want to sit in the mud right now.

424
00:23:44,550 --> 00:23:47,310
S2: It's fucking awkward hanging around in this negativity. Let's change

425
00:23:47,310 --> 00:23:49,530
S2: the vibe. So let's look at all this stuff and

426
00:23:49,530 --> 00:23:52,500
S2: it's like, no, as a supporter, that's your shit. I'm

427
00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:55,440
S2: actually okay here. I need to be here right now,

428
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,399
S2: in Elodie's case, remembering my the love of my life.

429
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,680
S2: But if you don't want to be in this, then

430
00:24:01,710 --> 00:24:03,240
S2: you can go elsewhere.

431
00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:05,580
S1: I think as well. That's like a really good point.

432
00:24:05,580 --> 00:24:07,800
S1: And I was thinking about that and it might come

433
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,380
S1: across as quite selfish, but you know, everyone's going through

434
00:24:10,410 --> 00:24:13,710
S1: shit at different times in their life. The shit pile

435
00:24:13,710 --> 00:24:17,610
S1: is bigger and sometimes the shit pile is not so big.

436
00:24:17,609 --> 00:24:21,320
S1: But you know, if your head deep in shit, for example,

437
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,650
S1: and your friend is also head deep in shit. It's

438
00:24:24,650 --> 00:24:27,709
S1: quite hard for yourself to be like, how can I

439
00:24:27,740 --> 00:24:31,550
S1: give myself to that person when I'm actually really, really

440
00:24:31,550 --> 00:24:35,840
S1: struggling myself? Because often you do have to peel back

441
00:24:35,869 --> 00:24:38,300
S1: the like the layers of the onion with them, and

442
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:40,100
S1: you have to sit in their shit and you have

443
00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:42,649
S1: to go through it with them. But sometimes you don't

444
00:24:42,650 --> 00:24:46,280
S1: want to make that move because you're like, where do

445
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,580
S1: I even find the capacity to help them when I'm

446
00:24:49,580 --> 00:24:53,030
S1: really struggling to help myself? And I mean, for us,

447
00:24:53,030 --> 00:24:55,280
S1: for L and I, often we it's a bit of

448
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,220
S1: a clusterfuck all over and we're all we're both going through.

449
00:24:58,250 --> 00:25:00,379
S1: We I mean, we're pretty good at that where we

450
00:25:00,380 --> 00:25:04,340
S1: just sit in each other's, like, craziness. Like we're like,

451
00:25:04,369 --> 00:25:06,830
S1: oh my God, if we only had a TV show

452
00:25:06,859 --> 00:25:10,220
S1: on this, it would be like a number one viewed

453
00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:12,920
S1: show because there's just so much shit going on constantly.

454
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,580
S1: But I find that really hard. And we're probably I've

455
00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:18,620
S1: probably taken a bit of a left turn here, but

456
00:25:18,660 --> 00:25:22,710
S1: I think that that is like probably a reason why

457
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:26,010
S1: people don't sit in other people's shit because they're going

458
00:25:26,010 --> 00:25:28,590
S1: through their own. Is that do you think that that's true?

459
00:25:28,619 --> 00:25:31,230
S2: 100%. You know, you said the word capacity. It's a

460
00:25:31,230 --> 00:25:34,560
S2: really good word in that, in that instance. So it's

461
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,050
S2: just being honest in those moments. I think with people

462
00:25:37,050 --> 00:25:39,719
S2: when it's really hard and you're like, right now I

463
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,080
S2: can't get right down into the pit because I'll lose

464
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,690
S2: my footing to, are you okay? If you're patient with

465
00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:48,360
S2: me as I go on a process of supporting you,

466
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,729
S2: and I'm going to be trying my best to to

467
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,310
S2: understand with the capacity that I have right now.

468
00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:55,170
S1: Yeah, it's a hard one.

469
00:25:55,170 --> 00:25:58,860
S2: It is a hard one. Which leads us to number four,

470
00:25:58,890 --> 00:26:04,260
S2: the helicopter. The helicopter freaks out or freezes up when

471
00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:08,190
S2: someone brings them any type of emotional distress and kind

472
00:26:08,190 --> 00:26:13,710
S2: of loses themself in that person. Often correlated with an anxious,

473
00:26:13,710 --> 00:26:17,159
S2: preoccupied attachment style, which a lot of people have. And

474
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,280
S2: there's no shame in that. You don't. You didn't get

475
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,310
S2: a choice over it. It's from our parents anyway. Um,

476
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:27,740
S2: and it's hardest when we care the most. So, parent

477
00:26:27,770 --> 00:26:30,590
S2: to child, when your child is not okay and they

478
00:26:30,590 --> 00:26:35,869
S2: bring you some pain, you almost don't separate that as theirs.

479
00:26:35,869 --> 00:26:40,490
S2: It's now ours. And, um, but there is a reason

480
00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:45,290
S2: why yin and yang are separate but together. An adult

481
00:26:45,290 --> 00:26:49,760
S2: always needs to remain in their sovereignty in order for

482
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,920
S2: other people to be able to hang on to them

483
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,150
S2: as a stable object. Emotions are scientifically proven to be

484
00:26:56,150 --> 00:27:01,460
S2: contagious up to like three degrees of separation. So if

485
00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:05,659
S2: you imagine when someone's presenting their heart to you and

486
00:27:05,660 --> 00:27:10,399
S2: it's ripped apart, you, you're standing there with a glass

487
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,060
S2: of water and a glass of gasoline. Like choose wisely.

488
00:27:14,330 --> 00:27:18,480
S2: You can add to the contagion of pain by becoming

489
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,660
S2: a tornado of their pain and not staying in that

490
00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:25,800
S2: really anchored position. Now people mishear me on this one

491
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,500
S2: and they think, what? So I just have to be

492
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:31,050
S2: strong all the time. And the answer is absolutely fucking

493
00:27:31,050 --> 00:27:36,420
S2: not again. I created a charity of being vulnerable. But

494
00:27:36,450 --> 00:27:41,400
S2: if you want to be helpful in that conversation as

495
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,869
S2: a supporter while you're wearing that hat in that moment, yes,

496
00:27:45,869 --> 00:27:48,960
S2: you need to fucking anchor down. If that's what you

497
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,780
S2: want to be is helpful. You need to find something

498
00:27:51,780 --> 00:27:54,659
S2: in you that you can stay stable on so that

499
00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:56,850
S2: other people can come to shore using you as a

500
00:27:56,850 --> 00:28:00,420
S2: life raft. Then if five minutes after that conversation ends,

501
00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:04,950
S2: you need to fall apart. Fall apart? This whole system

502
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:07,530
S2: is just a series of dominoes where we're falling apart

503
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,159
S2: on each other. But like, you know, you travel a

504
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,929
S2: lot with with what you and Paul do and the

505
00:28:14,930 --> 00:28:17,750
S2: lifestyle you lead. I don't know about you, but when

506
00:28:17,780 --> 00:28:21,440
S2: the when the planes got turbulence, I look to the

507
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,320
S2: flight attendant to see if they're relaxed or not. That's

508
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,619
S2: how I know whether I should be scared. Mhm. Is

509
00:28:27,650 --> 00:28:31,040
S2: like what's their reaction? Humans are doing that all day,

510
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,649
S2: every day with their emotions. They're like, I'm feeling anxious.

511
00:28:33,650 --> 00:28:36,080
S2: Should I be feeling anxious? I'm going to check the

512
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,590
S2: emotional regulation of everyone else. So one of the greatest

513
00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:42,110
S2: gifts you can give to other people you're trying to

514
00:28:42,110 --> 00:28:46,460
S2: support is work on your own shit so that the

515
00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:50,719
S2: washing machine is relatively clean, by no means perfect or fixed,

516
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,410
S2: but relatively clean, so that when they bring you dirty laundry,

517
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,540
S2: you don't give them dirty clothes back.

518
00:28:56,660 --> 00:29:00,020
S1: I'm loving the analogies. It's so it's. Yeah, we love

519
00:29:00,020 --> 00:29:04,460
S1: a metaphor. It's so it's so, so true. And as

520
00:29:04,460 --> 00:29:07,280
S1: well for on the other hand, I when I was

521
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,550
S1: just recently in hospital trying to ask for help to

522
00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:13,060
S1: it's like, actually let me get you, let me, let

523
00:29:13,060 --> 00:29:15,700
S1: me get let you get the last. The last tip out.

524
00:29:15,730 --> 00:29:17,020
S1: Last one. Let me get the last one out. And

525
00:29:17,020 --> 00:29:18,310
S1: then I'm going to flip it. I'm going to flip

526
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:19,570
S1: the conversation. Yeah.

527
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,910
S2: So last one is the ostrich. The ostrich is kind

528
00:29:24,910 --> 00:29:28,090
S2: of the opposite of the helicopter. The. Oh no, it's

529
00:29:28,090 --> 00:29:31,270
S2: the I'm going to pretend that I didn't even see that.

530
00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:36,490
S2: I assume that person's not okay. But this isn't my bag.

531
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,710
S2: You know, this isn't my jam. The whole emotional thing.

532
00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:42,880
S2: It's usually from a dismissive attachment style. Again, no shame

533
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,270
S2: in that we probably weren't modeled healthy vulnerability as a child,

534
00:29:46,270 --> 00:29:49,150
S2: if that's the way we're operating as an adult. And

535
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:53,590
S2: ostriches usually doubt their own ability to be helpful in

536
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:59,560
S2: those moments, or they're phobic and petrified of feeling any

537
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,730
S2: type of awkwardness. Now, the reality is, you got to

538
00:30:03,730 --> 00:30:07,780
S2: get better at sitting in uncomfortable shit and feeling awkward.

539
00:30:07,780 --> 00:30:11,050
S2: If you want to be a human being that is

540
00:30:11,060 --> 00:30:14,720
S2: in any way, shape or form emotionally helpful and supportive,

541
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,240
S2: and that the first sign of tension or when someone's crying.

542
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,810
S2: For example, when I did my master's degree, I was

543
00:30:23,810 --> 00:30:27,380
S2: so fascinated to learn that the worst thing you can

544
00:30:27,380 --> 00:30:31,250
S2: do when someone's crying other than like, you know, be

545
00:30:31,250 --> 00:30:35,480
S2: abusive is hand them a tissue. Because what it signals

546
00:30:35,510 --> 00:30:39,830
S2: is clean yourself up and hurry up. So the best

547
00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:44,150
S2: tissue in the world is three words take your time

548
00:30:44,150 --> 00:30:48,740
S2: and then shut up. Then just stop. Do less. Let

549
00:30:48,740 --> 00:30:52,400
S2: them paint the walls with their pain. Because crying is

550
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,540
S2: the nervous system's way of purging. It's trying to heal

551
00:30:56,540 --> 00:30:58,640
S2: and you're trying to stop the healing.

552
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:00,080
S1: I just got goosebumps.

553
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,270
S2: And I'm going to link it back to your beautiful

554
00:31:02,270 --> 00:31:04,790
S2: comment at the start. It's not about you. That tissue

555
00:31:04,790 --> 00:31:08,810
S2: is about the supporter. I'm uncomfortable. I need a prop.

556
00:31:08,890 --> 00:31:14,230
S2: Now lean in, say take your time and then be

557
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:17,020
S2: in what it is to be human. Which is it's

558
00:31:17,020 --> 00:31:19,150
S2: fucking shit right now. Mhm.

559
00:31:20,260 --> 00:31:23,050
S1: And even if you just sit and say nothing. Is

560
00:31:23,050 --> 00:31:24,100
S1: that helping?

561
00:31:24,250 --> 00:31:29,110
S2: Abso fucking lutely. It is like there's so much I

562
00:31:29,110 --> 00:31:31,150
S2: posted about this on Instagram the other day. I was like,

563
00:31:31,150 --> 00:31:35,050
S2: when did care become negligent? And what I mean by

564
00:31:35,050 --> 00:31:37,540
S2: that is in so many conversations, we walk away and

565
00:31:37,540 --> 00:31:39,820
S2: we're like, I wish I could have helped. I had

566
00:31:39,820 --> 00:31:43,150
S2: no advice to give. And I was like, but you

567
00:31:43,150 --> 00:31:47,200
S2: loved them just then, right? You loved them hard. And

568
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,390
S2: you got in there and you listened and you tried

569
00:31:49,390 --> 00:31:53,230
S2: to understand them. That was your only job. If you're

570
00:31:53,230 --> 00:31:57,490
S2: having a real conversation, you must get better at leaving

571
00:31:57,490 --> 00:32:02,920
S2: that conversation knowing that you scored 100% success. And the

572
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,840
S2: problem is still 100% the same if that person feels

573
00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:12,920
S2: totally fucking heard and supported. Yeah. So the equivalent in

574
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,290
S2: the grief, just to round out that analogy that we've

575
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,620
S2: kind of flushed through all the mistakes, um, a helicopter

576
00:32:18,620 --> 00:32:21,200
S2: in the grief is like, well, I don't even know

577
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,910
S2: how you're dealing with this right now. I would be

578
00:32:22,910 --> 00:32:27,800
S2: such a mess. And you and the ostrich would cross

579
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,750
S2: the other side of the road when they saw you

580
00:32:29,780 --> 00:32:33,080
S2: walking toward them, because they wouldn't even know how to

581
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:39,200
S2: ask about your miscarriage. So this is the best summary

582
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,390
S2: of everything we've spoken about on how to make the

583
00:32:41,390 --> 00:32:49,220
S2: transition toward a real conversationalist. The single most helpful thing

584
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,840
S2: you can do with someone experiencing grief is to say,

585
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,410
S2: what do you miss about that person the most? Um,

586
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,490
S2: or if they're not earthside say, what does this loss

587
00:33:01,490 --> 00:33:07,210
S2: mean and represent to you? I.e., you go Directly toward

588
00:33:07,210 --> 00:33:10,510
S2: the eye of the storm. That's so scary. Is there

589
00:33:10,510 --> 00:33:11,890
S2: that we get better.

590
00:33:11,980 --> 00:33:15,280
S1: Even you just saying that just then. I'm just thinking. Shit,

591
00:33:15,310 --> 00:33:17,410
S1: how do you even. How do you even do that?

592
00:33:17,410 --> 00:33:21,100
S1: That's such a scary thought to to go straight towards

593
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:22,600
S1: the eye of the storm of the problem.

594
00:33:23,380 --> 00:33:25,480
S2: It is. Huh? It is.

595
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,400
S1: So in like context of talking miscarriage. I've just had

596
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,220
S1: a miscarriage. What? What? And you've just found out. What

597
00:33:33,220 --> 00:33:34,600
S1: are you going to what? How are you going to

598
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:35,650
S1: approach this?

599
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,070
S2: So. So some of your listeners right now might be thinking,

600
00:33:39,070 --> 00:33:42,340
S2: God right after a miscarriage, saying, what does that represent

601
00:33:42,340 --> 00:33:45,340
S2: to you might be too hard, and you should use

602
00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:49,450
S2: your own discretion and put relationship context, you know, into

603
00:33:49,450 --> 00:33:54,040
S2: the mix here. But a principle that might help guide

604
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,750
S2: your sequencing is the bigger the bomb, the bigger the

605
00:33:58,750 --> 00:34:03,370
S2: paddock it needs to explode. So what I mean by

606
00:34:03,370 --> 00:34:06,890
S2: that is like the the heaviest something is, the less

607
00:34:06,890 --> 00:34:09,620
S2: you should try and fix it or even be involved

608
00:34:09,620 --> 00:34:13,640
S2: verbally or like brainstorming it out or any of that shit.

609
00:34:13,670 --> 00:34:16,310
S2: Like I had a friend the other day just tell

610
00:34:16,340 --> 00:34:21,500
S2: me that they have been diagnosed with cancer. Nothing I

611
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:24,739
S2: can say next is going to make that better. I

612
00:34:24,739 --> 00:34:28,250
S2: just hugged them and I just breathed and we sat

613
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:31,460
S2: there for a few minutes, just in silence. And that

614
00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:35,330
S2: silence was doing so much heavy lifting. We didn't get

615
00:34:35,330 --> 00:34:36,979
S2: to do it at the top of this segment, but

616
00:34:36,980 --> 00:34:40,400
S2: usually you start this with a shine and a shit, right?

617
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:44,960
S2: I think that's the name of the segment. And my dad.

618
00:34:44,989 --> 00:34:47,930
S2: I just got home from America to to my dad

619
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:54,080
S2: being hospitalized for suicidal ideation last Sunday. And that's a

620
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,270
S2: lot for, you know, it's the first time this has

621
00:34:56,270 --> 00:34:59,210
S2: ever happened. And I went in to the clinic and

622
00:34:59,210 --> 00:35:00,800
S2: I saw him and he looked me in the eyes

623
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,930
S2: and said, the only reason I'm not taking my own

624
00:35:02,930 --> 00:35:07,750
S2: life is because of you. That is awesome. As a son,

625
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:11,290
S2: that is the shine. But it's also shit to have

626
00:35:11,290 --> 00:35:15,520
S2: your hero at his knees wanting to take that away

627
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,180
S2: from them. But I knew that all I could do

628
00:35:19,180 --> 00:35:22,090
S2: is just sit there with him. There is a time

629
00:35:22,090 --> 00:35:24,580
S2: and a place for us to talk about medication change

630
00:35:24,580 --> 00:35:26,620
S2: and his sleep apnea, and the effect that that's having

631
00:35:26,620 --> 00:35:29,830
S2: on his ability to self-regulate and all this other shit.

632
00:35:29,830 --> 00:35:33,040
S2: But in that moment, he just needed to know I

633
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,899
S2: love him. And I held his hands and I looked

634
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:37,060
S2: him in the eye and said, I love you, and

635
00:35:37,060 --> 00:35:41,890
S2: just stopped. And there was a turning point in his

636
00:35:41,890 --> 00:35:45,550
S2: eyes there. He knew I had his back. He trusted that.

637
00:35:45,550 --> 00:35:47,290
S2: I know he's going to get through this and will

638
00:35:47,290 --> 00:35:49,479
S2: work out the details later, but that was a big

639
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,850
S2: bomb and I'm going to let that land. So if

640
00:35:51,850 --> 00:35:54,520
S2: someone's just had a miscarriage, you might not go straight

641
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,009
S2: to what did that represent. But I'm sure if someone

642
00:35:57,010 --> 00:36:00,219
S2: like Elodie said that to you, even the day of.

643
00:36:00,250 --> 00:36:02,690
S2: What does this mean to you, Chlo? What's the hardest part?

644
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,500
S2: Right now, someone that safe. It's actually probably relieving to

645
00:36:06,530 --> 00:36:10,640
S2: put some of that really, really deep emotional baggage somewhere else.

646
00:36:10,670 --> 00:36:11,090
S3: Mhm.

647
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,069
S1: Yeah. Totally. And I there, there is like I guess

648
00:36:16,070 --> 00:36:18,800
S1: like we've just gone kind of gone through and firstly

649
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,650
S1: I'm actually really sorry to hear about your dad. Um,

650
00:36:21,650 --> 00:36:23,720
S1: and that's probably the wrong thing to say.

651
00:36:24,110 --> 00:36:26,960
S2: No I don't want you to be petrified now to

652
00:36:26,989 --> 00:36:31,190
S2: say the wrong thing either. The care translated right. And

653
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:34,190
S2: I think what a perfect thing for us to, to

654
00:36:34,219 --> 00:36:38,120
S2: to dance on right now. After all that, it really

655
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,030
S2: doesn't matter what you say, so long as you just

656
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:45,950
S2: deeply fucking care. And you just you acknowledged it. First

657
00:36:45,950 --> 00:36:47,420
S2: of all, you're not going to be like, at least

658
00:36:47,420 --> 00:36:50,359
S2: he's in getting treatment or. Yeah, you just went there.

659
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,089
S2: I'm sorry for the pain. You acknowledge the pain and

660
00:36:53,090 --> 00:36:54,230
S2: that's all that matters.

661
00:36:54,260 --> 00:36:57,169
S1: And I think as well, with you saying that with

662
00:36:57,170 --> 00:36:59,000
S1: what Elody is saying, what does this mean to you

663
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,020
S1: and exactly it needs to be context like in context

664
00:37:02,050 --> 00:37:05,080
S1: with the person and how deep, how well you know them.

665
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,500
S1: But I think that that question as well, if that

666
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:12,730
S1: was being asked to me, that's actually really touching, because

667
00:37:12,730 --> 00:37:15,730
S1: you then get to talk about your experience and, you know,

668
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,370
S1: what does this mean to you? It's like that baby

669
00:37:18,370 --> 00:37:20,859
S1: meant everything to me. I've worked so hard, and it

670
00:37:20,860 --> 00:37:25,360
S1: really triggers that conversation for the person who's suffering to

671
00:37:25,390 --> 00:37:28,660
S1: be able to share as little or as as much

672
00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:30,489
S1: as they would like. And that's what I love about

673
00:37:30,489 --> 00:37:34,120
S1: this podcast. We get in here and it's almost therapeutic.

674
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,270
S1: And do you get up there and everything that you've

675
00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:40,239
S1: been through, do you find it therapeutic to talk about things?

676
00:37:40,270 --> 00:37:42,910
S2: Yeah for sure. I mean, this space gives back more

677
00:37:42,940 --> 00:37:46,000
S2: than it takes, but it's a lot, right. And I yeah,

678
00:37:46,030 --> 00:37:53,110
S2: I've had to build incredibly, um, present boundaries, knowing how

679
00:37:53,110 --> 00:37:55,570
S2: far to lean in and when to to lean out,

680
00:37:55,570 --> 00:37:58,950
S2: as I'm sure you have to navigating your journey now

681
00:37:58,950 --> 00:38:02,220
S2: as a mama and a podcaster and a wife and

682
00:38:02,219 --> 00:38:03,870
S2: all the other hats that you wear.

683
00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:08,040
S1: Yeah, we've spoken a lot in this chat about helping

684
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,650
S1: others go through their struggles and how to kind of

685
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,410
S1: dive deeper into those conversations, but I want to kind

686
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,629
S1: of put the shoe on the other foot. And yeah,

687
00:38:15,660 --> 00:38:20,310
S1: as an example, I've just had a baby. Obviously, it's

688
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:23,520
S1: something that I've wanted for my whole life. We've tried

689
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,330
S1: for five years, and I went through a fairly traumatic

690
00:38:27,330 --> 00:38:30,300
S1: experience post birth with a lot of blood loss, and

691
00:38:30,450 --> 00:38:35,310
S1: I remember getting back to my hospital room after being

692
00:38:35,310 --> 00:38:38,250
S1: released from ICU and getting in there with Paul and

693
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,790
S1: like looking at my baby and just literally bawling my

694
00:38:41,790 --> 00:38:44,550
S1: eyes out. Like it actually makes me like teary thinking

695
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:51,180
S1: about it. And I spent like the first week of post-birth,

696
00:38:51,210 --> 00:38:55,200
S1: swear to God, like crying and crying and crying and crying.

697
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,219
S1: And I would speak to people on the phone and

698
00:38:57,219 --> 00:39:00,700
S1: family and friends, and I would be like, oh my God,

699
00:39:00,700 --> 00:39:02,860
S1: I am so obsessed with my baby. She's the best

700
00:39:02,860 --> 00:39:05,560
S1: thing in the world. But I literally cannot stop crying.

701
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,400
S1: And I think, obviously there's this whole massive hormonal shift

702
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,980
S1: that women go through post-birth. But I felt like this weird.

703
00:39:15,219 --> 00:39:18,190
S1: In my mind. I was just thinking, this is all

704
00:39:18,190 --> 00:39:21,940
S1: you've ever wanted. Like, you should be so freaking happy

705
00:39:21,940 --> 00:39:25,030
S1: right now. Why am I so sad? Like, why can't

706
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:28,240
S1: I stop crying? And you know, everyone wants to help.

707
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,000
S1: And everyone was there to put their hand out and say,

708
00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:33,640
S1: you know, let's talk about this. But from my point

709
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,100
S1: of view, I was like, yes, I knew I needed

710
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:38,080
S1: to speak about it, and yes, I knew I needed

711
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,669
S1: to get help. But when you're in that moment, you're like,

712
00:39:42,670 --> 00:39:46,960
S1: I couldn't fucking think of anything worse than having to

713
00:39:46,989 --> 00:39:49,930
S1: deal with other people right now when you're so deep

714
00:39:49,930 --> 00:39:52,240
S1: in that yourself. I don't know if that makes any

715
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,130
S1: sense at all, but I guess it was.

716
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:54,640
S2: Like a ton of.

717
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,580
S1: Sense. I guess it was like I was going through

718
00:39:56,580 --> 00:39:58,530
S1: a bit of a bout of baby blues, and I

719
00:39:58,530 --> 00:40:03,330
S1: completely empathise with people that suffer from postnatal depression, because

720
00:40:03,540 --> 00:40:06,480
S1: I never really understood it when I didn't have a baby,

721
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,250
S1: because I was always like, you've got the baby. So like,

722
00:40:11,250 --> 00:40:14,670
S1: how could you have depression? Or how could you be

723
00:40:14,670 --> 00:40:18,150
S1: sad when you've got this miracle? And it fricking happened

724
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:21,780
S1: to me and you know it. I even said to Elody,

725
00:40:21,780 --> 00:40:24,090
S1: I was like, I think I'm depressed. Like, I think

726
00:40:24,090 --> 00:40:27,750
S1: I'm actually depressed. I'm going through this. I don't I

727
00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:31,290
S1: actually don't know what's wrong with me. Um, and I

728
00:40:31,290 --> 00:40:34,350
S1: think from understanding, when I put out saying that I

729
00:40:34,350 --> 00:40:36,030
S1: was going to talk to you and, and I was

730
00:40:36,030 --> 00:40:38,819
S1: saying to people, have you got any questions in the

731
00:40:38,820 --> 00:40:45,029
S1: mental health space? And I am so sad looking at

732
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:48,930
S1: how many women have come to me to ask questions

733
00:40:48,930 --> 00:40:53,130
S1: about postnatal. Not even it's not actually the person trying

734
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,780
S1: to what we've just spoken about trying to help someone

735
00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:58,750
S1: with postnatal depression or baby blues or any of that.

736
00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:03,729
S1: It's actually women asking, how the fuck do I help myself?

737
00:41:03,850 --> 00:41:06,220
S1: And like, can we talk about this?

738
00:41:06,310 --> 00:41:09,160
S2: Well, first of all, what came up for me as

739
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,150
S2: you were sharing that experience was when you said, crying, crying, crying.

740
00:41:13,150 --> 00:41:15,460
S2: I heard grieving, grieving, grieving.

741
00:41:15,610 --> 00:41:15,850
S3: Mhm.

742
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:23,500
S2: I heard your nervous system crying out with relief that

743
00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:28,300
S2: this fear, this battle, this nightmare is over. Right. When

744
00:41:28,450 --> 00:41:31,870
S2: my friends and Olympian and I said, what emotion occurred

745
00:41:31,870 --> 00:41:33,970
S2: when you crossed the line and you won gold. And

746
00:41:33,969 --> 00:41:36,760
S2: I was expecting it was to be like ecstasy, joy, elation.

747
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,360
S2: And it was relief. It was the removal of negative,

748
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:45,310
S2: not the presence of positive that shone brightly in that moment. Right.

749
00:41:45,310 --> 00:41:49,089
S2: So what? Before your body and your brain and your

750
00:41:49,090 --> 00:41:53,939
S2: heart can be happy, it first needs to celebrate the

751
00:41:53,940 --> 00:41:58,320
S2: pain that's been removed. So what? That those tears were

752
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:02,130
S2: was like a someone winning Olympics. This is my whole

753
00:42:02,130 --> 00:42:05,640
S2: life has been geared. The sacrifice that you did with the,

754
00:42:05,670 --> 00:42:08,160
S2: you know, leading up to that, the hormones, the tension

755
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,040
S2: that put on the relationship with Paul, I imagine, and

756
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,910
S2: your family and your career planning and your future and

757
00:42:14,940 --> 00:42:18,210
S2: all that shit culminates when you hold this child and

758
00:42:18,210 --> 00:42:21,000
S2: you say, finally, I am blessed with this miracle, and

759
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,840
S2: it was worth it. But there's still so many parts inside,

760
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,880
S2: you know, that were holding the fucking tent together with

761
00:42:29,910 --> 00:42:34,740
S2: fucking elastic bands and band aids, whilst you had to

762
00:42:34,770 --> 00:42:37,109
S2: go and be an adult and deliver this baby. And

763
00:42:37,110 --> 00:42:39,450
S2: it's like, okay, now we can fall apart.

764
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,820
S1: Yeah. And I think that's just that it being an

765
00:42:41,820 --> 00:42:43,860
S1: adult and delivering this baby, and then all of a

766
00:42:43,860 --> 00:42:49,050
S1: sudden you're just so broken and so like exactly what

767
00:42:49,050 --> 00:42:51,220
S1: you just said. Relieved. But then you're like trying to

768
00:42:51,250 --> 00:42:55,720
S1: care for this newborn. But there's still so much going on,

769
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,420
S1: and I think I even am getting teary talking to

770
00:42:58,420 --> 00:43:00,640
S1: you about it because, like, it's bringing back so many emotions,

771
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,879
S1: just going, why was I like that? And I still

772
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,900
S1: it must be that I still have so much underlying

773
00:43:07,900 --> 00:43:12,879
S1: grief from the miscarriages and from like, I don't know,

774
00:43:12,910 --> 00:43:16,120
S1: I just just like exactly what we were just saying,

775
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,799
S1: how it's like created a bit of a mess. And

776
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,500
S1: I think that like, it's this whole conversation is like

777
00:43:20,530 --> 00:43:23,319
S1: muddled my waters a little bit because I'm like, fuck,

778
00:43:23,350 --> 00:43:25,600
S1: I have really just like pushed this all down and

779
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,390
S1: you don't really have time to, like, let this stuff surface.

780
00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:31,150
S1: As a mother, when you are caring for a newborn

781
00:43:31,150 --> 00:43:33,580
S1: because it really is full time. But you do have

782
00:43:33,580 --> 00:43:36,100
S1: these moments in these conversations and like what I'm having

783
00:43:36,100 --> 00:43:39,009
S1: with you right now, just going, nah, fuck. I have

784
00:43:39,010 --> 00:43:42,400
S1: gone through a lot, actually. And you have. There's so

785
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,310
S1: much still. And do you think it's important for people

786
00:43:45,310 --> 00:43:48,100
S1: like myself or not even just people that haven't gone

787
00:43:48,100 --> 00:43:50,700
S1: through a lot? Do you think that it's important to

788
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:57,660
S1: put everything aside sometimes and do some work on yourself constantly? Like,

789
00:43:57,690 --> 00:43:59,430
S1: do you think that that's important?

790
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,660
S2: Look, I this is going to be the lamest answer

791
00:44:03,660 --> 00:44:05,430
S2: because I'm going to keep coming back to the answer

792
00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:07,350
S2: is going to be somewhere in the middle. I think

793
00:44:07,350 --> 00:44:09,990
S2: there's a time in life where you need to compartmentalize,

794
00:44:09,989 --> 00:44:13,049
S2: put shit aside and press on. Yeah. Um, like as

795
00:44:13,050 --> 00:44:15,120
S2: much as I'm a fan of, like, I'm the heart

796
00:44:15,150 --> 00:44:19,230
S2: on my sleeve guy, I'm fucking more emotions based than

797
00:44:19,230 --> 00:44:22,380
S2: most dudes I know. But still, I'm also one of

798
00:44:22,380 --> 00:44:24,360
S2: the most resilient people I know. And when I need

799
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,000
S2: to drive, I'll drive hard. I also think there's a

800
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,700
S2: time when you need to put reality, and all the

801
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:33,720
S2: practical shit and the job and everything aside, and heal

802
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,210
S2: so that you don't bleed on people that didn't cut you.

803
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:41,910
S2: First and foremost, and for yourself and your own worthiness

804
00:44:41,910 --> 00:44:45,120
S2: to feel happy, you need to do some deep healing

805
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,650
S2: at times. And I think it's knowing which season am

806
00:44:47,650 --> 00:44:49,900
S2: I in? Am I in like get shit done season

807
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:53,530
S2: right now or am I in like slowing down and

808
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,790
S2: like tying some loose ends? It's not summer always. You know,

809
00:44:57,820 --> 00:45:01,420
S2: there's reasons why the universe goes through four different cycles,

810
00:45:01,450 --> 00:45:03,730
S2: like so much of life is a rhythm, and it's

811
00:45:03,730 --> 00:45:07,510
S2: about finding equilibrium between two sides. And what I think

812
00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:10,930
S2: is coming up for you now is you've had the baby.

813
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,510
S2: A lot's happen. The pod, you're still traveling, you're in

814
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:17,950
S2: another country right now and and your nervous system is like, cool,

815
00:45:17,950 --> 00:45:20,860
S2: we can do that. We can push. So long as

816
00:45:20,860 --> 00:45:24,490
S2: you also give me time to feel and grieve. And

817
00:45:24,489 --> 00:45:27,790
S2: it doesn't mean that that that moment says that you're

818
00:45:27,790 --> 00:45:31,600
S2: now in a sad chapter again, it's just releasing some

819
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:37,569
S2: of those stored memories and and heartaches that parts of

820
00:45:37,570 --> 00:45:40,719
S2: you are still holding to be true. And it's kind

821
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,870
S2: of like updating the software to say it's time to

822
00:45:43,900 --> 00:45:46,469
S2: let go now, because we've been blessed with a new

823
00:45:46,469 --> 00:45:48,000
S2: reality that we can live in.

824
00:45:48,030 --> 00:45:48,480
S3: Mhm.

825
00:45:48,510 --> 00:45:50,640
S1: Yeah. It's because I think I used to be so

826
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,200
S1: good at it. I really prided myself in helping myself,

827
00:45:55,230 --> 00:46:00,330
S1: you know, in after, before Bobby came along. That's what

828
00:46:00,330 --> 00:46:02,880
S1: I really, you know, I want to get out there

829
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,550
S1: to help people. I want to have these hard conversations.

830
00:46:05,550 --> 00:46:08,430
S1: I'm going I'm doing a lot of self-care. I'm meditating,

831
00:46:08,430 --> 00:46:11,940
S1: which I haven't meditated once since Bobby was born, and

832
00:46:11,940 --> 00:46:15,480
S1: I was. So he'd be stoked. He would be. He

833
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,210
S1: wouldn't be. He would not be happy with me saying that.

834
00:46:18,210 --> 00:46:21,450
S1: But yeah, I was like that. I was so good

835
00:46:21,450 --> 00:46:24,120
S1: at that in the past. And I feel like now

836
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,700
S1: that I've got Bobby and I feel like a lot

837
00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:30,239
S1: of other women out there could probably resonate. Your whole

838
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,300
S1: life is just like dedicated to them in a way,

839
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:36,150
S1: and you've really put yourself aside. And I, I genuinely

840
00:46:36,180 --> 00:46:39,780
S1: hand to my heart, don't know where right now I

841
00:46:39,780 --> 00:46:44,750
S1: would find the time to do me if I was real. Like,

842
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:47,570
S1: I feel like I've evolved and I've, like, grown a

843
00:46:47,570 --> 00:46:50,600
S1: lot and I've. And I'm so much better than I

844
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:55,160
S1: was immediately post-birth right now. So I'm actually feeling okay.

845
00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:56,570
S1: I think that I was just had a little bit

846
00:46:56,570 --> 00:47:01,250
S1: of a moment just then, but, um, yeah. Where like

847
00:47:02,510 --> 00:47:05,390
S1: if I was still in those trenches where I was

848
00:47:05,390 --> 00:47:08,270
S1: a few weeks ago, and you do have this newborn

849
00:47:08,270 --> 00:47:10,760
S1: and you do have a chaotic life, and I'm trying

850
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:12,529
S1: to slow down a bit now that I'm here in

851
00:47:12,530 --> 00:47:15,380
S1: Ibiza and I do have time to slow down, but

852
00:47:15,380 --> 00:47:19,759
S1: some women don't have that. And I'm like, how? How

853
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,520
S1: do these women, what are some ways that these women

854
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,300
S1: can help themselves in amongst this chaos? Like, you know,

855
00:47:26,330 --> 00:47:30,020
S1: you talk about human connection and having these conversations like

856
00:47:30,050 --> 00:47:33,140
S1: who are they going to? I actually had this conversation

857
00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:36,890
S1: with a girlfriend the other day who had had a

858
00:47:36,890 --> 00:47:38,810
S1: baby a few weeks before me, and I said, you know,

859
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,969
S1: how are you going? And I'd only just had the

860
00:47:40,969 --> 00:47:44,160
S1: capacity to even ask her how she was going, because

861
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,790
S1: I was just in this like, trench and she was

862
00:47:47,790 --> 00:47:50,220
S1: just boundaries. She was just like, oh my God, it

863
00:47:50,219 --> 00:47:54,089
S1: was so hard. My partner wasn't even able to take

864
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,120
S1: time off work. I didn't have any family or friends around.

865
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,489
S1: And I was just thinking, oh my God, I'm the

866
00:47:59,489 --> 00:48:03,569
S1: worst fucking friend for a start. How lucky am I

867
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,910
S1: that I did have family and friends around me? How

868
00:48:05,910 --> 00:48:08,879
S1: the fuck would I have coped without my tribe around me?

869
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,370
S1: And this poor friend did that all alone. And I'm

870
00:48:11,370 --> 00:48:15,240
S1: just thinking, oh my God, that is just it is

871
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:20,190
S1: so sad and I just have so much like, I

872
00:48:20,219 --> 00:48:22,920
S1: guess empathy is the word for women and families that

873
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,040
S1: go through this without the help. But I guess where

874
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,020
S1: I was going with that question at the start, like

875
00:48:28,020 --> 00:48:30,780
S1: how do women, where do they go for help? How

876
00:48:30,780 --> 00:48:32,580
S1: do they ask for help? Who are they going to

877
00:48:32,610 --> 00:48:36,210
S1: for help? Like help me help them right now?

878
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,680
S2: Yeah. Well, seeing as you asked, I will give advice

879
00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:45,110
S2: because usually I would just land that and say, yes,

880
00:48:45,110 --> 00:48:47,509
S2: you are. You have a lot on and that's that's

881
00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:50,360
S2: a lot. And I can see that you're feeling confused

882
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,390
S2: and you're working through it. And that would be enough,

883
00:48:53,390 --> 00:48:57,259
S2: because I trust in your ability to know that you

884
00:48:57,260 --> 00:48:59,479
S2: will work through this. This is a new thing. Just

885
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,759
S2: like any new thing, you will find your feet. I

886
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,270
S2: have absolutely no doubt. And given the values of and

887
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:10,310
S2: the behaviors you've demonstrated previously of tenacity and perseverance and care,

888
00:49:10,340 --> 00:49:15,110
S2: you will thrive in terms of how other people do that. Look,

889
00:49:15,140 --> 00:49:17,510
S2: my my heart bleeds for them as well. I think

890
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:23,480
S2: sometimes I get in a loop around how is life fair? Like,

891
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:28,069
S2: I still keep in touch with my ex-girlfriend and something

892
00:49:28,070 --> 00:49:31,400
S2: happened with her recently that was just so unfair, and

893
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,130
S2: watching my dad be brought to his knees when he's

894
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:37,940
S2: a good guy and doesn't deserve that. It's unfair. And and,

895
00:49:37,969 --> 00:49:41,280
S2: you know, watching the wars break out. And there are

896
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:47,100
S2: times when I personally struggle with the existential acceptance that

897
00:49:47,100 --> 00:49:50,820
S2: life can be fucking cruel sometimes. I deal with that

898
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:53,730
S2: by trying to turn as much pain into meaning and purpose,

899
00:49:53,730 --> 00:49:56,520
S2: by giving back to others as I can. But there

900
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:00,120
S2: are some things that are just shit, and so I

901
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,350
S2: think it's first, if you are in that position, letting

902
00:50:04,350 --> 00:50:08,490
S2: yourself feel whatever you need to feel about that, whether

903
00:50:08,489 --> 00:50:11,820
S2: that's I'm angry that I'm doing this on my own.

904
00:50:11,910 --> 00:50:14,279
S2: You don't have to be in your full, rational mind

905
00:50:14,310 --> 00:50:16,680
S2: all the time to be like, no, but I'm also

906
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,350
S2: grateful for this. That's going to come next. Right. You

907
00:50:19,350 --> 00:50:22,170
S2: can go tidy up the mess in a second. I

908
00:50:22,170 --> 00:50:25,110
S2: had a friend to use a story. She had such

909
00:50:25,110 --> 00:50:30,090
S2: bad autoimmune issue that she would spend six plus months

910
00:50:30,090 --> 00:50:33,330
S2: a year in hospital, and this has been happening since

911
00:50:33,330 --> 00:50:37,320
S2: she was a teenager. She's unfortunately no longer with us,

912
00:50:37,350 --> 00:50:39,210
S2: but I would go in to visit her in hospital

913
00:50:39,210 --> 00:50:44,130
S2: and I'd ask like, how do you fight? Aren't you tired?

914
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,729
S2: And she's like, yeah, I'm fucking tired. But I have

915
00:50:47,730 --> 00:50:50,910
S2: a pity party. Every so often I'll throw my fucking

916
00:50:50,940 --> 00:50:53,280
S2: toys out of the cart. I'll look up at God

917
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,050
S2: and be like, you're not fucking real, because no one

918
00:50:55,050 --> 00:50:57,450
S2: would let this happen. Because I'm actually an ambulance driver

919
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,850
S2: outside of this, and I'm sitting here in a hospital.

920
00:50:59,850 --> 00:51:03,719
S2: This is just not okay. And then I once I

921
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,960
S2: felt it, I get up in bed again and I

922
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,330
S2: push on and I take an inventory of what strengths

923
00:51:09,330 --> 00:51:11,190
S2: I do have, and I focus on the positive and

924
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:13,140
S2: I go, that's the yin to the yang. You know,

925
00:51:13,170 --> 00:51:17,190
S2: you allow yourself to have a moment of whatever that

926
00:51:17,190 --> 00:51:20,730
S2: moment looks like so that your nervous system can purge.

927
00:51:20,730 --> 00:51:23,489
S2: Then you have space and capacity to come back into

928
00:51:23,489 --> 00:51:26,940
S2: the wise mind and kind of pave a way forward.

929
00:51:26,940 --> 00:51:30,510
S2: So don't deny yourself of what's true, I think, is

930
00:51:30,510 --> 00:51:34,350
S2: the first step. Second step is reaching out to people

931
00:51:34,350 --> 00:51:36,660
S2: who you trust, and that can have a real conversation

932
00:51:36,660 --> 00:51:39,239
S2: with you and hold that space. And they're not scared

933
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,500
S2: of hearing the darkness and that they'll sit with you

934
00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:45,930
S2: in it. And if you don't have one of those people,

935
00:51:45,930 --> 00:51:49,710
S2: then thankfully there are resources like lifeline and and therapy

936
00:51:49,710 --> 00:51:53,190
S2: that can help you work through that. The third thing

937
00:51:53,190 --> 00:51:57,390
S2: I would say is be patient, especially in that example

938
00:51:57,390 --> 00:52:01,469
S2: of of postnatal, as someone who's researched it and, and

939
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:03,779
S2: has have friends in it, by no means is this

940
00:52:03,810 --> 00:52:07,890
S2: my specialty, but chemistry is going to have a massive

941
00:52:07,890 --> 00:52:12,360
S2: part to play here that will normalize with time, and

942
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,259
S2: it may or may not also require medical interventions and help.

943
00:52:16,260 --> 00:52:20,310
S2: But I'm sure you can relate to you know, you

944
00:52:20,310 --> 00:52:23,550
S2: alluded to perhaps a mild version of it when you're

945
00:52:23,550 --> 00:52:26,910
S2: in it, whether it's this or something else, you swear

946
00:52:26,910 --> 00:52:29,580
S2: it's going to last forever and that you can't see

947
00:52:29,580 --> 00:52:32,400
S2: the clouds for the sky. You know, it now feels

948
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,520
S2: like the clouds have always been the sky. And now

949
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,860
S2: it's forever going to be like this. And I think,

950
00:52:36,860 --> 00:52:40,940
S2: if nothing else, just know this too shall pass.

951
00:52:40,969 --> 00:52:43,550
S1: I say that a lot. I say that a lot.

952
00:52:43,550 --> 00:52:46,279
S1: And it's really it was really hard to be in

953
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,980
S1: that position because I did. I have known a few

954
00:52:48,980 --> 00:52:52,160
S1: people with postnatal depression when I was trying to conceive,

955
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,410
S1: and I was always just like, I just don't get it.

956
00:52:54,410 --> 00:52:58,340
S1: Like how you've got you've got everything, you've got your baby,

957
00:52:58,370 --> 00:53:00,950
S1: you've got a home, you travel like I've known a

958
00:53:00,950 --> 00:53:02,509
S1: few people that are like that. And I'm like, how

959
00:53:02,510 --> 00:53:06,350
S1: can you actually be depressed right now? But it's so

960
00:53:06,380 --> 00:53:11,029
S1: weird when you say it. That's a chemical situation happening.

961
00:53:11,030 --> 00:53:14,660
S1: I fully believe that now because like, I essentially was

962
00:53:14,660 --> 00:53:17,420
S1: that person. And I also am finding it really difficult

963
00:53:17,420 --> 00:53:20,089
S1: to have these chats on this podcast because a lot

964
00:53:20,090 --> 00:53:24,650
S1: of our listeners are trying to conceive and I feel like, yeah,

965
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:30,680
S1: I feel so guilty talking about being so sad post

966
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:34,590
S1: having a baby when I was always like, I would

967
00:53:34,590 --> 00:53:38,130
S1: always see people online, you know? And I'd be like,

968
00:53:38,130 --> 00:53:40,680
S1: don't ever complain. Don't ever complain about having the baby

969
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,350
S1: because there's so many people out there that are, um,

970
00:53:43,380 --> 00:53:48,450
S1: trying to conceive. And I just feel like the biggest hypocrite. Like, literally,

971
00:53:48,450 --> 00:53:52,380
S1: I it breaks my fucking heart. No, it doesn't break. Well,

972
00:53:52,380 --> 00:53:54,450
S1: it does break my heart, but it also, I feel

973
00:53:54,450 --> 00:53:59,069
S1: so fucking guilty saying this in this space when I

974
00:53:59,070 --> 00:54:02,580
S1: know there's so many of you out there that are like, own,

975
00:54:02,610 --> 00:54:05,280
S1: that listen to us because they're struggling. And then here

976
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,790
S1: I am. I've struggled, I've done this struggle, I've had

977
00:54:08,790 --> 00:54:11,160
S1: the baby and now I'm on the other side going,

978
00:54:11,340 --> 00:54:16,110
S1: this is really hard. And I'm I'm not coping that well.

979
00:54:16,110 --> 00:54:19,650
S1: And I've got the baby. I don't know, it's so weird.

980
00:54:19,650 --> 00:54:22,020
S1: It's and I yeah. And I am so sorry to

981
00:54:22,050 --> 00:54:24,420
S1: those people out there listening just going, you're a fucking

982
00:54:24,630 --> 00:54:28,050
S1: you're shit. I can't believe you're doing this because it's.

983
00:54:28,050 --> 00:54:29,879
S2: I don't think anyone's thinking that.

984
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,780
S1: I'm just trying to be honest and try to be like,

985
00:54:32,810 --> 00:54:36,469
S1: this happens like, fuck, it's wild.

986
00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:39,830
S2: Look, it makes sense that you're that you're feeling guilty, right?

987
00:54:39,860 --> 00:54:43,070
S2: Because you were in those shoes for so long and

988
00:54:43,070 --> 00:54:45,020
S2: and you would have given anything to be there. And

989
00:54:45,020 --> 00:54:47,630
S2: now that you are here and you're feeling what you

990
00:54:47,630 --> 00:54:51,259
S2: didn't expect to, you're coming to terms with how you

991
00:54:51,260 --> 00:54:55,340
S2: reconcile being honest with also being grateful in a role

992
00:54:55,340 --> 00:54:59,210
S2: model for what you needed at the time. Full stop.

993
00:54:59,210 --> 00:55:00,950
S2: We're on a podcast, so I'll go on to give

994
00:55:00,980 --> 00:55:05,690
S2: advice like my $0.02. Um, my $0.02 there is that like,

995
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,930
S2: you know, Brene Brown, who's someone I respect a lot.

996
00:55:08,930 --> 00:55:12,200
S2: She talks about comparative suffering and how it doesn't serve anyone.

997
00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:15,620
S2: You know, you're allowed to feel whatever you have and

998
00:55:15,620 --> 00:55:19,250
S2: also be grateful for what you know. They don't have

999
00:55:19,250 --> 00:55:22,190
S2: to cancel out each other. There's not this like, you know,

1000
00:55:22,219 --> 00:55:25,070
S2: zero sum equation where I can only feel that or

1001
00:55:25,100 --> 00:55:27,740
S2: that if someone else is happy, therefore I can't be

1002
00:55:27,739 --> 00:55:31,410
S2: as happy or no, fuck that. It can all be true.

1003
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:39,060
S2: You can feel different to how you expected. Happy, sometimes. Sad, guilty.

1004
00:55:39,060 --> 00:55:42,810
S2: And all those things at the same time. And I

1005
00:55:42,810 --> 00:55:46,140
S2: think what people value the most is honesty around integrating

1006
00:55:46,140 --> 00:55:48,060
S2: all those different perspectives.

1007
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,780
S1: Yeah, it's so hard. It's so hard to try to

1008
00:55:51,810 --> 00:55:56,670
S1: learn that juggle and. Yeah, and I do. I probably

1009
00:55:56,670 --> 00:55:59,219
S1: shouldn't apologise, but I do apologise for all those women

1010
00:55:59,219 --> 00:56:01,830
S1: out there because I definitely I know that I was

1011
00:56:01,830 --> 00:56:04,710
S1: always saying so much stuff about don't ever complain and

1012
00:56:04,710 --> 00:56:08,549
S1: here I am, so here we are. But that this

1013
00:56:08,550 --> 00:56:12,240
S1: chat has been so amazing and I think it's helped.

1014
00:56:12,270 --> 00:56:14,910
S1: So it's going to help so, so many people because

1015
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:19,290
S1: this chat and from opening up the the chats on

1016
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,520
S1: our socials last night, I've really become aware of you

1017
00:56:23,550 --> 00:56:25,380
S1: kind of just get lost in your own world for

1018
00:56:25,380 --> 00:56:27,629
S1: a second and you forget about other people and other

1019
00:56:27,630 --> 00:56:31,400
S1: people's struggles. And I did want to close this podcast

1020
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:36,230
S1: out by answering a dear darlings for you all. And

1021
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:43,160
S1: there are so many really important questions and topics that

1022
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,319
S1: have been asked, and I think that we might do

1023
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,910
S1: a bit of a part two bonus episode, um, for

1024
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:52,700
S1: you guys at a later date, but let's just. Are

1025
00:56:52,700 --> 00:56:55,790
S1: you okay to answer two questions right now? Absolutely. That

1026
00:56:55,790 --> 00:57:00,319
S1: I think this one actually stood out to me the most.

1027
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,580
S1: And and this person has said, what do you do

1028
00:57:04,580 --> 00:57:08,509
S1: when you're going through something really big, like cancer and

1029
00:57:08,510 --> 00:57:11,030
S1: a lot of friends disappear or don't acknowledge what you're

1030
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:11,930
S1: going through?

1031
00:57:12,980 --> 00:57:17,810
S2: Yeah. Gosh, isn't that like a poetic place to, um,

1032
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,230
S2: start to journey into the end of this, um, this

1033
00:57:21,230 --> 00:57:23,930
S2: chat because it picks up on so many threads that

1034
00:57:23,930 --> 00:57:26,890
S2: we've hit on. Right? It's not about you like that?

1035
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:30,669
S2: If you're ghosting someone for a cancer diagnosis, you need

1036
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:36,160
S2: to look in the mirror. Because we must be able

1037
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,500
S2: to build the capacity to be there for people in

1038
00:57:38,500 --> 00:57:40,900
S2: moments where no one deserves to be alone. And if

1039
00:57:40,900 --> 00:57:45,730
S2: we can't, then we've got to go figure out how. Like,

1040
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,100
S2: of course, there are times in our life where we

1041
00:57:48,130 --> 00:57:52,600
S2: are absolutely maxed out. And you mentioned one before. I'm

1042
00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:56,410
S2: kind of constantly ebbing and flowing between being like, if

1043
00:57:56,410 --> 00:57:59,620
S2: I go and help another person, I'm going to go

1044
00:57:59,620 --> 00:58:02,710
S2: off the deep end, so I need to pull back.

1045
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:06,430
S2: But if if someone feels ghosted, whereby a whole network

1046
00:58:06,430 --> 00:58:10,690
S2: of people are opting out, that's like if that's considering

1047
00:58:10,690 --> 00:58:13,000
S2: that some people are having a bad day, everyone's not

1048
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,130
S2: having a bad day and is at full max capacity.

1049
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,280
S2: It means that their network is being really rigid and

1050
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,880
S2: closed down, and so walk up to the mate with

1051
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,890
S2: cancer and say, I don't know what to say, I'm

1052
00:58:24,890 --> 00:58:28,940
S2: fucking sorry this has happened. Here's a bench. I'm here

1053
00:58:28,940 --> 00:58:31,760
S2: to listen, and I won't say a word if you

1054
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,270
S2: don't want me to. That's like. That's fucking courage. And

1055
00:58:35,270 --> 00:58:38,720
S2: that person would respect that 100 times more than you

1056
00:58:38,750 --> 00:58:42,020
S2: not having the perfect thing to say. Just be honest

1057
00:58:42,020 --> 00:58:44,540
S2: and say I give a fuck and you're not alone.

1058
00:58:44,570 --> 00:58:48,080
S2: Like ghosting someone because of your own insecurities when you

1059
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,680
S2: have capacity to give is not acceptable in my opinion.

1060
00:58:51,980 --> 00:58:55,460
S1: And being the person with cancer, how do they go

1061
00:58:55,460 --> 00:58:58,430
S1: about this when their friends are kind of ghosting? Do

1062
00:58:58,430 --> 00:59:01,880
S1: you think that they should reach out to them, or

1063
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,630
S1: should they look elsewhere? And you know, they've got their

1064
00:59:05,630 --> 00:59:07,790
S1: core friendship group? I mean, I'm just making this as

1065
00:59:07,790 --> 00:59:10,130
S1: an example, but if they've got their core friendship group

1066
00:59:10,130 --> 00:59:12,530
S1: that aren't serving them, where else do they go when

1067
00:59:12,530 --> 00:59:15,080
S1: they really fucking need someone to talk to or a

1068
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:16,160
S1: shoulder to cry on?

1069
00:59:16,190 --> 00:59:20,300
S2: Yeah, I think then if I was in that situation,

1070
00:59:20,300 --> 00:59:24,250
S2: I would go to specific support groups for that issue,

1071
00:59:24,250 --> 00:59:28,840
S2: because if you're feeling that isolated, alone and misunderstood, you

1072
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:33,340
S2: need to quickly remedy that and overcorrect to like hyper understanding.

1073
00:59:33,340 --> 00:59:36,850
S2: So I would go then to a cancer support group.

1074
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:37,300
S3: Yeah.

1075
00:59:37,330 --> 00:59:39,550
S1: Yeah, I actually leant on a lot of that when

1076
00:59:39,550 --> 00:59:42,910
S1: I was going through my fertility struggles going. There's so

1077
00:59:42,910 --> 00:59:46,690
S1: many Facebook groups out there that they get it and

1078
00:59:46,690 --> 00:59:49,390
S1: they talk about it 24 over seven. And even if

1079
00:59:49,420 --> 00:59:51,760
S1: you don't want to be asking the questions, I can

1080
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,700
S1: guarantee you someone else is going to ask the question

1081
00:59:54,700 --> 00:59:57,970
S1: very quickly on there because it constantly they're evolving. And

1082
00:59:57,970 --> 01:00:01,120
S1: then there's so many comments and people trying to, you know,

1083
01:00:01,150 --> 01:00:04,060
S1: help and offer advice. And yeah, I think that that's

1084
01:00:04,060 --> 01:00:07,510
S1: a really good one as well. Okay. The last question

1085
01:00:07,510 --> 01:00:11,170
S1: that someone's written in was how do I answer the question,

1086
01:00:11,170 --> 01:00:14,320
S1: how are you? When I'm struggling with my mental health.

1087
01:00:14,350 --> 01:00:16,390
S1: I'm in the fertility trenches, but I don't want to

1088
01:00:16,390 --> 01:00:18,910
S1: burden my friends and family. I really want to be

1089
01:00:18,910 --> 01:00:22,640
S1: honest with the struggle and explain why I've been so withdrawn,

1090
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,440
S1: but I'm not sure how.

1091
01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:27,650
S2: Yeah. Great question. So for this one I'd say person,

1092
01:00:27,650 --> 01:00:31,010
S2: place and time. So check in with yourself and be like,

1093
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:35,060
S2: is this someone person wise that can genuinely hold space

1094
01:00:35,060 --> 01:00:38,660
S2: for more than just a tick the box answer? Can

1095
01:00:38,690 --> 01:00:43,670
S2: I truly get real? Second is, is this the right place?

1096
01:00:44,030 --> 01:00:46,939
S2: Third is is this the right time? And you need

1097
01:00:46,970 --> 01:00:50,420
S2: three of three. And in those moments, if someone says,

1098
01:00:50,420 --> 01:00:53,450
S2: how are you and you feel fraudulent, saying, I'm good

1099
01:00:53,450 --> 01:00:57,110
S2: if you're not. Say, there's some stuff going on, now

1100
01:00:57,140 --> 01:01:01,040
S2: is probably not the right time. If you are interested

1101
01:01:01,310 --> 01:01:04,190
S2: and you have capacity, then we'd love to check in

1102
01:01:04,190 --> 01:01:06,560
S2: with you. When we both have some headspace to be

1103
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,760
S2: able to get into it properly. But I'm, I'm I'm

1104
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,890
S2: seeking support and I'm doing okay for now.

1105
01:01:13,730 --> 01:01:15,590
S1: And then what happens if they do want to talk

1106
01:01:15,590 --> 01:01:16,580
S1: about it though?

1107
01:01:16,610 --> 01:01:19,190
S2: And if you are also happy to talk about it

1108
01:01:19,190 --> 01:01:22,420
S2: with them and you consent to that, then allow them

1109
01:01:22,420 --> 01:01:26,080
S2: to organize that time and place, and you be an

1110
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,360
S2: active member in participating in that. Yeah.

1111
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:31,960
S1: Oh, yeah. The questions are so hard. But like you said,

1112
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,230
S1: you've got to be a big boy and just go

1113
01:01:35,260 --> 01:01:39,520
S1: go in for the the eye of the storm. It's scary.

1114
01:01:40,510 --> 01:01:43,570
S1: And I think as well, in answer to this person's question,

1115
01:01:43,570 --> 01:01:47,620
S1: just from my experience, how they're saying, how do you

1116
01:01:47,620 --> 01:01:49,990
S1: answer that question? How are you when you are struggling?

1117
01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:53,650
S1: I think you don't actually have to be strong, like

1118
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:56,080
S1: you don't have to be withdrawn. And I think I

1119
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,320
S1: know that naturally you want to be away. It's super important.

1120
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:01,450
S1: And from my experience and like, I don't want to

1121
01:02:01,450 --> 01:02:03,490
S1: be flipping this on me, but I'm just trying to

1122
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,190
S1: give an example like, yeah, please, you do need to

1123
01:02:06,190 --> 01:02:09,700
S1: find that person. And for that person for me is

1124
01:02:09,700 --> 01:02:13,840
S1: generally elody sometimes it's not even Paul. Elody is like

1125
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:18,710
S1: my rock. She's like my emotional support animal. Vice versa.

1126
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,900
S1: We we definitely deal with things completely differently like she will.

1127
01:02:24,020 --> 01:02:28,010
S1: A lot of the time, bottle things up and keep

1128
01:02:28,010 --> 01:02:31,130
S1: things internal because that's how she copes and that's her

1129
01:02:31,130 --> 01:02:34,820
S1: coping mechanism and sometimes her bucket. And like what Cooper

1130
01:02:34,820 --> 01:02:37,670
S1: likes to say, he's your bucket gets full and full

1131
01:02:37,670 --> 01:02:39,650
S1: and full and full until it to the point where

1132
01:02:39,650 --> 01:02:42,050
S1: you do need to sit down with someone and you

1133
01:02:42,050 --> 01:02:46,190
S1: are at the verge of breaking. Whereas me personally, I

1134
01:02:46,190 --> 01:02:49,490
S1: like to get it out straight away and she's my person.

1135
01:02:49,490 --> 01:02:51,530
S1: That if I'm not doing well, I don't even need

1136
01:02:51,530 --> 01:02:53,540
S1: to say anything to her. Like I'll pick up the

1137
01:02:53,540 --> 01:02:56,630
S1: phone and I'll just end up in tears. And she's like, okay,

1138
01:02:56,630 --> 01:02:59,360
S1: let's sit down what's going on? And I'll let her

1139
01:02:59,390 --> 01:03:05,090
S1: know straight away. So it's it's all relative to the

1140
01:03:05,090 --> 01:03:09,050
S1: context and how you're feeling at the time and finding

1141
01:03:09,050 --> 01:03:11,600
S1: that one person. And like you said earlier, like if

1142
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,510
S1: you don't have that one person, there are so many

1143
01:03:14,510 --> 01:03:17,770
S1: places that you can go for help. There's help lines

1144
01:03:17,770 --> 01:03:20,860
S1: will actually list. I'll list a bunch of them in

1145
01:03:20,860 --> 01:03:22,870
S1: the show notes. So if you are listening and you

1146
01:03:22,870 --> 01:03:26,830
S1: don't have your person, please reach out and get help

1147
01:03:26,830 --> 01:03:30,460
S1: from these different. There's hotlines, there's chats. If you don't

1148
01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:32,620
S1: want to speak to someone on the phone, there's there's

1149
01:03:32,620 --> 01:03:35,110
S1: so many different ways that you can get help and

1150
01:03:35,110 --> 01:03:39,460
S1: feel heard and people with experience to help you back. Um,

1151
01:03:39,460 --> 01:03:43,990
S1: so I just really want to say thank you so much, Mitch, for,

1152
01:03:44,020 --> 01:03:45,520
S1: by the way, I'm going to get your book. I

1153
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,280
S1: haven't read it, but I would love to read your book.

1154
01:03:48,310 --> 01:03:49,390
S3: We'll get you a copy for sure.

1155
01:03:49,510 --> 01:03:50,440
S1: To get it on my Kindle.

1156
01:03:50,470 --> 01:03:51,220
S3: Absolutely.

1157
01:03:51,340 --> 01:03:53,050
S1: Um, I will also put a link in our show

1158
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,260
S1: notes as well. For anyone that wants to read Mitch's book,

1159
01:03:56,290 --> 01:03:59,440
S1: you can follow him on Instagram. We'll link his Instagram.

1160
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:04,030
S1: It's at Mitch Dot Wallace w a l l I s.

1161
01:04:04,060 --> 01:04:07,390
S1: He's also got a podcast. You can listen to his podcast,

1162
01:04:07,390 --> 01:04:10,360
S1: but I've linked everything in the show notes and I really,

1163
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,630
S1: honestly appreciate you so much. Mitch. And I knew this

1164
01:04:13,630 --> 01:04:17,030
S1: conversation was going to be great, but I think it's

1165
01:04:17,030 --> 01:04:22,160
S1: it's over exceeded my expectations. And yeah, I really appreciate

1166
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,320
S1: you coming on here. So thanks so much.

1167
01:04:24,350 --> 01:04:28,460
S2: My absolute pleasure. And thanks for being such a authentic

1168
01:04:28,460 --> 01:04:31,670
S2: and bright spirit in the world. I think we need

1169
01:04:31,670 --> 01:04:33,919
S2: more people like you, and it's been an honor to

1170
01:04:33,950 --> 01:04:35,720
S2: to hang out with you for an hour or so.

1171
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:40,490
S1: Oh, you're amazing. And I will definitely come back to this, everyone.

1172
01:04:40,490 --> 01:04:42,290
S1: And if you have any other questions that you would

1173
01:04:42,290 --> 01:04:45,860
S1: like us to touch on, please email us. Probably get

1174
01:04:45,860 --> 01:04:50,120
S1: lost on Instagram. So email me at hello darling Shine.com

1175
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:51,860
S1: and we'll make sure we add that to our list.

1176
01:04:51,860 --> 01:04:54,860
S1: And thank you guys or thank you Mitch and we

1177
01:04:54,890 --> 01:04:56,750
S1: hope you guys really enjoyed that chat.

1178
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:03,140
UU: Oh we're always.