1 00:00:02,710 --> 00:00:14,830 S1: Listener Late last year, shortly after the 2022 midterms, retiring 2 00:00:14,830 --> 00:00:18,700 S1: Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger and I got together to talk 3 00:00:18,700 --> 00:00:22,720 S1: about the future of American politics in the wake of 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,200 S1: Donald Trump in the wake of January the 6th. 5 00:00:25,210 --> 00:00:27,340 S2: It's not the time for any of us to rest, 6 00:00:27,340 --> 00:00:29,770 S2: because this is the time where you may be laid 7 00:00:29,770 --> 00:00:32,200 S2: a good punch in the boxing match, but you've got 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,120 S2: to come back with a couple more hooks to knock 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,370 S2: them down or else he's just going to stumble and recover. 10 00:00:36,370 --> 00:00:37,730 S2: And that's kind of the moment we're at. 11 00:00:37,750 --> 00:00:41,559 S1: Adam was pretty upbeat. He saw the midterms as having 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,150 S1: demonstrated that Trump's type of politics was being rejected by Americans, 13 00:00:46,150 --> 00:00:50,229 S1: and he saw the glimmerings of a return to political 14 00:00:50,229 --> 00:00:55,690 S1: normalcy more than six months later. He's not optimistic anymore. 15 00:00:56,260 --> 00:00:58,720 S1: Trump is resurgent in the polls. 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,830 S3: The latest polling shows the former president maintaining his stranglehold 17 00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:04,120 S3: over the GOP, his. 18 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,740 S1: Legal woes of multiplied. But his political support has only 19 00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:09,789 S1: increased and there's. 20 00:01:09,790 --> 00:01:12,910 S3: Scant evidence that any of his challengers will be able 21 00:01:12,910 --> 00:01:15,640 S3: to loosen his grip on the nomination, even as he 22 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,040 S3: faces criminal charges. 23 00:01:17,050 --> 00:01:21,729 S1: What does a Trumpian America mark to look like, and 24 00:01:21,730 --> 00:01:33,640 S1: what does it mean for the rest of the world? So, Adam, 25 00:01:33,730 --> 00:01:36,490 S1: great to see you again. What's it like not being 26 00:01:36,490 --> 00:01:38,830 S1: a member of Congress? And what are you doing nowadays? 27 00:01:38,860 --> 00:01:43,959 S2: Well, first off, it's great. You know, I always wondered, like, 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,760 S2: is there going to be moments where you kind of 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:50,320 S2: miss it and. No, no, there's not. It's I've enjoyed it. 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,830 S2: And and, you know, I still obviously stay very interested 31 00:01:53,830 --> 00:01:56,290 S2: in what's going on. And I stay very active with 32 00:01:56,290 --> 00:01:57,130 S2: country first. 33 00:01:57,130 --> 00:02:00,040 S1: And so what country first. So so what what is 34 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,030 S1: country first? 35 00:02:01,030 --> 00:02:05,140 S2: So basically after January 6th, I started this. I didn't 36 00:02:05,140 --> 00:02:06,700 S2: know it was going to be a movement. I actually 37 00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:08,710 S2: just did this video. It's like a kind of tell 38 00:02:08,710 --> 00:02:11,680 S2: the Truth video, like, hey, you know, here's what's going on. 39 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,430 S2: And and it ended up with a ton of people joining, 40 00:02:15,430 --> 00:02:17,380 S2: you know, and it created this real energy. And I 41 00:02:17,380 --> 00:02:19,150 S2: initially thought this was just going to be like a 42 00:02:19,150 --> 00:02:22,510 S2: save the GOP kind of thing. And but it turned 43 00:02:22,510 --> 00:02:24,820 S2: into really, you know, a lot of members of Democrats, 44 00:02:24,820 --> 00:02:27,519 S2: a lot of members of Republicans and independents. And so 45 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,280 S2: it's basically we want to help people that want to 46 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,519 S2: put the country above their party at country first. We 47 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,769 S2: know that many of us are tired of the mudslinging, 48 00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:39,610 S2: name calling and self-serving action from leaders, sometimes even those 49 00:02:39,610 --> 00:02:43,420 S2: we love. So we're asking reasonable Americans to leave the 50 00:02:43,419 --> 00:02:46,450 S2: extremists to themselves and come together. Honestly, I don't care 51 00:02:46,450 --> 00:02:49,150 S2: if you're a liberal Democrat or a conservative Republican or 52 00:02:49,150 --> 00:02:53,500 S2: anywhere in between. If your commitment is to the country 53 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:55,990 S2: over your party, you're the kind of people we want 54 00:02:55,990 --> 00:02:58,119 S2: to help. And we just started an academy, for instance, 55 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,670 S2: where we're kind of helping candidates that want to run 56 00:03:00,669 --> 00:03:04,150 S2: for office and learn about that process. And so it's 57 00:03:04,150 --> 00:03:06,850 S2: been fun. It's been for me, it's been fun. It's 58 00:03:06,850 --> 00:03:09,130 S2: it's exciting to see. And we have, I don't know 59 00:03:09,130 --> 00:03:11,830 S2: now a couple hundred thousand members to just see this 60 00:03:11,830 --> 00:03:18,490 S2: energy of people that frankly want to actually disagree agreeably. 61 00:03:18,490 --> 00:03:21,280 S2: And so that part's been really enjoyable for me. And then, 62 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,170 S2: of course, just doing some speaking, I got a book 63 00:03:23,169 --> 00:03:26,230 S2: coming out in October and and now I actually have 64 00:03:26,230 --> 00:03:28,690 S2: time to spend with my family. I'm sure you understand, 65 00:03:28,690 --> 00:03:31,359 S2: you know, those sacrifices that go into public service. 66 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:36,280 S1: Yes. Shortly after the 2022 midterms, you know, we sat 67 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,279 S1: down and had our first chat on this podcast. And 68 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,020 S1: you suggested a few more legal setbacks could knock Donald 69 00:03:44,020 --> 00:03:49,090 S1: Trump out. However, since then, his legal woes have multiplied. 70 00:03:49,390 --> 00:03:53,350 S1: The cases against him have increased. And they're they're much 71 00:03:53,350 --> 00:03:57,250 S1: more formidable, particularly the documents case. But his lead in 72 00:03:57,250 --> 00:04:00,910 S1: the polls has only increased. He's as of today, he's 73 00:04:00,910 --> 00:04:06,430 S1: a full 37 points ahead of his closest rival, Florida 74 00:04:06,430 --> 00:04:10,780 S1: Governor Ron DeSantis. I mean, is is Trump unstoppable? 75 00:04:11,350 --> 00:04:14,470 S2: Yeah. I mean, I think I was the only time 76 00:04:14,470 --> 00:04:16,690 S2: in my life I was wrong. Just kidding. I've been 77 00:04:16,690 --> 00:04:22,420 S2: wrong many times. But he I think, you know, I 78 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:27,460 S2: underestimated the party base was faced with Donald Trump can't win. 79 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:30,490 S2: I thought that some of this rationalization would be, okay, 80 00:04:30,490 --> 00:04:33,220 S2: we can put Ron DeSantis in. He's kind of like 81 00:04:33,220 --> 00:04:37,239 S2: Donald Trump, but he can win. But what I underestimated 82 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,600 S2: is the extent to which and this is just the 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,089 S2: party base, I'll tell you about the rest of America, 84 00:04:43,420 --> 00:04:47,770 S2: but the extent to which owning the libs kind of 85 00:04:47,770 --> 00:04:52,000 S2: pissing people off, showing your toughness by saying, I don't 86 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,190 S2: care about this and this, I'm going to still vote 87 00:04:54,190 --> 00:04:56,860 S2: for Donald Trump, I underestimated the power that has over people. 88 00:04:56,860 --> 00:05:03,110 S2: I underestimated the cowardice quote. Quite honestly, of other leaders 89 00:05:03,110 --> 00:05:06,350 S2: in the party. I mean, it's one thing I've been 90 00:05:06,350 --> 00:05:08,450 S2: shocked and I'm still shocked every day at the number 91 00:05:08,450 --> 00:05:11,510 S2: of people that are tolerant of January. Six other members 92 00:05:11,510 --> 00:05:15,109 S2: of Congress, for instance. I thought that when it came 93 00:05:15,110 --> 00:05:18,800 S2: to facing potential losses, maybe that would spur them. It didn't. 94 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,990 S2: They're just scared to death. You know, Donald Trump has 95 00:05:20,990 --> 00:05:25,880 S2: created this fear culture among Republican leaders. And so I 96 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,940 S2: think he's unstoppable in the primary. I mean, it's possible 97 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:32,630 S2: that he ends up getting not just indicted, he's been indicted, 98 00:05:32,630 --> 00:05:35,180 S2: but then he ends up getting convicted, which I think 99 00:05:35,180 --> 00:05:38,029 S2: would have an impact. But each one of these, while 100 00:05:38,029 --> 00:05:40,970 S2: it's not necessarily hurting them in the Republican Party, I 101 00:05:40,970 --> 00:05:43,940 S2: think it's making it far less likely that he can 102 00:05:43,940 --> 00:05:47,240 S2: win the general election. That said, we have to be 103 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,230 S2: very careful in this country to not assume that Donald 104 00:05:51,230 --> 00:05:54,529 S2: Trump can't win that general election. We made that mistake once. 105 00:05:54,529 --> 00:05:58,040 S2: And personally, I think Joe Biden's been an okay president. 106 00:05:58,040 --> 00:05:59,929 S2: I don't agree with a lot of his policies, but 107 00:05:59,930 --> 00:06:02,870 S2: he's gotten a lot done. He's been okay on Ukraine, 108 00:06:02,870 --> 00:06:06,110 S2: but he's older and there is a lot of concern 109 00:06:06,110 --> 00:06:10,849 S2: about that. And so I'm very worried that people may 110 00:06:10,850 --> 00:06:13,820 S2: just hold their nose and vote for Donald Trump because 111 00:06:13,820 --> 00:06:15,830 S2: he seems to have more energy than Joe Biden. I 112 00:06:15,830 --> 00:06:17,960 S2: hope I'm wrong. But anyway, I think it's going to 113 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,240 S2: be hard for Donald Trump to win a general election. 114 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,589 S2: But I do think I sort of literally got himself 115 00:06:24,589 --> 00:06:26,599 S2: coming down and maybe that wouldn't even be enough to 116 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,330 S2: do it with these people and endorsing somebody else. I 117 00:06:29,330 --> 00:06:31,250 S2: think he wins the Republican primary. 118 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,150 S1: Well, I mean, in a two horse race, both horses 119 00:06:35,150 --> 00:06:38,779 S1: have got to have always got a chance. And as 120 00:06:38,779 --> 00:06:42,410 S1: we both know, Biden could, you know, could have a 121 00:06:42,410 --> 00:06:46,430 S1: health incident. You're right. He does look very old. You're 122 00:06:46,430 --> 00:06:49,279 S1: also right. I agree from this distance, Adam, that I 123 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,969 S1: think he's done, you know, a very good job. But nonetheless, 124 00:06:52,970 --> 00:06:56,510 S1: it isn't a great look. And the idea that Donald 125 00:06:56,510 --> 00:06:59,420 S1: Trump would be seen and is seen as the more 126 00:06:59,420 --> 00:07:02,930 S1: energetic and alternative is incredible. It is. But you must 127 00:07:03,290 --> 00:07:06,260 S1: as a young man, you must be just must blow 128 00:07:06,260 --> 00:07:08,870 S1: your mind to see that you're going to have an election, 129 00:07:08,870 --> 00:07:11,120 S1: you know, with one guy in his late 70s and 130 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,090 S1: another guy in his early 80s running for president. It's 131 00:07:14,090 --> 00:07:15,170 S1: it's wild. 132 00:07:15,170 --> 00:07:18,320 S2: Yeah, it's amazing because it's like with Barack Obama, we 133 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,230 S2: kind of advanced a generation or I guess fell back 134 00:07:21,410 --> 00:07:23,960 S2: or whatever, you know, got a younger generation. And then 135 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,740 S2: we basically it was like the revenge of the baby boomers. 136 00:07:27,740 --> 00:07:30,200 S2: They're like, no, no, we want another, you know, a 137 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,900 S2: couple of years of power here. And so Donald Trump wins, 138 00:07:32,900 --> 00:07:35,780 S2: Joe Biden wins Biden or Trump is going to win. 139 00:07:35,990 --> 00:07:39,740 S2: I think, though, and I'm sure in Australia, you know, 140 00:07:39,740 --> 00:07:44,060 S2: your folks are looking around going, how how did we 141 00:07:44,060 --> 00:07:45,920 S2: get here? How are we here again? And there's a 142 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,030 S2: lot of Americans that are saying, look, I mean, America 143 00:07:50,030 --> 00:07:53,270 S2: is a great country with great people. Are we really, 144 00:07:53,510 --> 00:07:57,170 S2: really going to do this again? And the answer is probably. 145 00:07:57,170 --> 00:08:00,860 S2: And the reason is because of the primary system, because 146 00:08:00,860 --> 00:08:04,520 S2: it's all about turning out the base. And so, yeah, 147 00:08:04,610 --> 00:08:07,160 S2: I mean to say Donald Trump has energy as a joke. 148 00:08:12,730 --> 00:08:16,090 S1: It gets back to that that great Australian export, Rupert 149 00:08:16,090 --> 00:08:20,830 S1: Murdoch and what he's done you know through thanks for him. Yeah. Yeah. 150 00:08:20,830 --> 00:08:25,060 S1: To create this this sort of anchor tainment complex that, 151 00:08:26,140 --> 00:08:28,929 S1: you know has produced this environment that enables all this 152 00:08:28,930 --> 00:08:32,470 S1: to happen. The big question is, I guess, what do 153 00:08:32,470 --> 00:08:36,370 S1: you think a second Trump presidency would look like, assuming 154 00:08:36,370 --> 00:08:37,750 S1: it happened? Very. 155 00:08:38,260 --> 00:08:43,809 S2: Very frightening. So one of the sad realities I've I've 156 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,150 S2: been able to kind of grip a little now and 157 00:08:46,150 --> 00:08:50,140 S2: I think people are coming to understand is American democracy 158 00:08:50,140 --> 00:08:54,520 S2: felt invulnerable. You know, we have these institutions, you have 159 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,410 S2: the Supreme Court, You've got you know, you have all 160 00:08:56,410 --> 00:09:00,910 S2: these like checks and balances. But what was driven home 161 00:09:00,910 --> 00:09:05,950 S2: is the realization that, for instance, the Supreme Court, with 162 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,370 S2: its ability to basically declare anything unconstitutional or whatever, it's 163 00:09:09,370 --> 00:09:13,150 S2: got a legitimate purpose. In theory, if the Supreme Court 164 00:09:13,150 --> 00:09:15,640 S2: makes a decision, there is nothing that can force that 165 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,580 S2: decision to happen. That's because it is the role of 166 00:09:18,580 --> 00:09:23,980 S2: the executive branch execute to execute that decision. If Joe 167 00:09:23,980 --> 00:09:28,510 S2: Biden or Donald Trump and Trump 2.0 decides the Supreme 168 00:09:28,510 --> 00:09:31,089 S2: Court made a decision, they said what I did was unconstitutional, 169 00:09:31,090 --> 00:09:33,550 S2: or they said, you know, we couldn't recount the votes 170 00:09:33,550 --> 00:09:36,310 S2: or whatever. And what's the old saying? It's like the 171 00:09:36,309 --> 00:09:39,310 S2: chief justice has made his decision. Now let him enforce it. 172 00:09:39,309 --> 00:09:42,490 S2: And that's the frightening thing, is the only thing that 173 00:09:42,490 --> 00:09:46,570 S2: keeps democracy together is this understanding and contract among Americans 174 00:09:46,570 --> 00:09:48,670 S2: that we're going to play by the rules. When you 175 00:09:48,670 --> 00:09:52,450 S2: start playing outside of the rules and you're convincing, it's 176 00:09:52,450 --> 00:09:55,390 S2: not like, you know, Donald Trump would only then have 5% 177 00:09:55,390 --> 00:09:58,420 S2: of support. He's convincing almost half of the country to agree. 178 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:01,209 S2: It's hard to see what that, you know, man on 179 00:10:01,210 --> 00:10:03,250 S2: a white horse to come and save the day is 180 00:10:03,250 --> 00:10:08,320 S2: because all those institutions, that's those and he's breaking them. 181 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,079 S2: And so I think at Trump 2.0 it's I think 182 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,320 S2: it's frightening for the world because he's made it clear 183 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,900 S2: his affection for strongmen. I have sat in a meeting 184 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:21,219 S2: with Donald Trump where he asked us to what was 185 00:10:21,220 --> 00:10:24,339 S2: it wasn't Huawei, but it was China's ZTE. We were 186 00:10:24,340 --> 00:10:28,480 S2: putting a ban on ZTE equipment and the National Defense 187 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,720 S2: Authorization Act. And he asked me and about four other 188 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,809 S2: House members and about ten US senators, he asked us 189 00:10:34,809 --> 00:10:37,870 S2: to pull that out so that we wouldn't ban that equipment. 190 00:10:37,870 --> 00:10:40,360 S2: And his answer was when we said why? His answer 191 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,329 S2: was because I made Xi a promise. He called and 192 00:10:43,330 --> 00:10:45,790 S2: asked me and I promised him so it would just 193 00:10:45,790 --> 00:10:47,920 S2: be a favor to me. Now, this is a very 194 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,090 S2: important issue, you know, Chinese telecom equipment and US defense stuff. 195 00:10:52,090 --> 00:10:55,630 S2: And his thing was he likes President Xi and he 196 00:10:55,630 --> 00:10:58,000 S2: made an agreement to him. He made a commitment to him. 197 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,580 S2: You look at his obviously great words, he says about 198 00:11:00,580 --> 00:11:04,030 S2: Vladimir Putin, about Kim Jong un. I mean, he will 199 00:11:04,030 --> 00:11:06,400 S2: turn the world order on its head. And the reason 200 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,910 S2: it'll be easier to do is because the first time 201 00:11:09,910 --> 00:11:12,819 S2: there were a lot of good people that surrounded him. 202 00:11:12,910 --> 00:11:15,910 S2: But now he knows the game. Now he can put 203 00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:20,050 S2: only sycophants around him and he knows when people are 204 00:11:20,050 --> 00:11:22,990 S2: going to play the we can't do this now game. 205 00:11:23,500 --> 00:11:27,880 S1: Adam, you were a Republican congressman when Trump was elected 206 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:35,750 S1: in 2016. How has the Republican Party changed between 2016 207 00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:39,520 S1: and 2024, what it will look like in the next 208 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:40,780 S1: presidential election? 209 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:44,410 S2: So it has changed drastically in a couple of ways. 210 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,530 S2: First off, in 2016, I felt like there was still 211 00:11:50,530 --> 00:11:54,250 S2: some kind of moral and I'm not talking about family issues, 212 00:11:54,250 --> 00:11:58,719 S2: but moral, just like lines that people wouldn't cross personally or, 213 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,010 S2: you know, things they wouldn't do. And this is how 214 00:12:03,010 --> 00:12:07,300 S2: authoritarianism works. It's also how it's like the sunken cost fallacy. 215 00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:12,160 S2: When you start lying for somebody or you start compromising 216 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:17,080 S2: your values, eventually you have to keep doing that because 217 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,720 S2: to stop doing that, you're in essence admitting that you've 218 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,080 S2: been compromising your values the whole time. It's the sunken 219 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,300 S2: cost fallacy. You know, why is it that we stayed 220 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:27,550 S2: in Vietnam longer than we should have? Because we lost 221 00:12:27,550 --> 00:12:31,180 S2: so many people there that were like, We can't leave now. 222 00:12:31,179 --> 00:12:33,640 S2: And it's kind of the same thing here. So you 223 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,220 S2: have members of Congress now. Let's take the ones that 224 00:12:36,220 --> 00:12:38,560 S2: have been in in 16 and are still in. They 225 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,930 S2: have had to compromise what they believe to the point 226 00:12:40,929 --> 00:12:43,360 S2: where it is much easier. I've been I've been tempted 227 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,580 S2: with this so I can speak personally of it. It's 228 00:12:45,580 --> 00:12:48,280 S2: much easier to just put all your beliefs aside and 229 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,410 S2: just come to the understanding that I'm going to be 230 00:12:50,410 --> 00:12:52,630 S2: with our tribe because the other tribe is so bad. 231 00:12:52,630 --> 00:12:54,970 S2: And so I'm just going to play this game for 232 00:12:54,970 --> 00:12:57,490 S2: those that are coming in now that have come in 233 00:12:57,490 --> 00:13:02,530 S2: six since 2016, they actually believe this stuff. And I 234 00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:05,020 S2: think this kind of latest class of Republican members of 235 00:13:05,020 --> 00:13:08,500 S2: Congress and senators, they're not just acting anymore. They're not 236 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:10,970 S2: just saying what they need to say. A lot of 237 00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:14,719 S2: them truly believe this garbage. And that's concerning to me. 238 00:13:18,170 --> 00:13:21,230 S2: When you have a significant amount of Republicans out there 239 00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:25,520 S2: standing for for Putin, standing for the Russian invasion. 240 00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:29,209 S1: It's idolizing Viktor Orban, idolizing Orban. 241 00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:32,540 S2: I mean, CPAC goes and does like a worship service 242 00:13:32,540 --> 00:13:37,100 S2: of him now every year. This was unthinkable in 2016. Unthinkable. 243 00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:43,610 S1: And now is the Republican Party any longer committed to 244 00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:49,040 S1: democracy as we both understand it, rule of law, independent judiciary, 245 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,080 S1: the restraint, the restraint and balances that you have in 246 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,079 S1: the design of American democracy. Is the Republican Party still 247 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:57,800 S1: committed to that? 248 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,490 S2: No, No. And I think if you put certain members 249 00:14:01,490 --> 00:14:04,340 S2: of Congress on truth serum, you know, you had the 250 00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:06,620 S2: CIA shoot them up. And I think some of them 251 00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:09,650 S2: would believe that they're committed to that. But it's gotten 252 00:14:09,650 --> 00:14:12,080 S2: to the point where it's like the Democrats would be 253 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,230 S2: the enemy and they're so bad that we now I mean, 254 00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:17,510 S2: I've heard people say, and this is, you see this 255 00:14:17,510 --> 00:14:21,470 S2: on the Internet where people are saying the Democrats were 256 00:14:21,470 --> 00:14:26,240 S2: so long used the institution of government to silence conservatives, 257 00:14:26,420 --> 00:14:30,020 S2: which isn't true. And they say now it's time for 258 00:14:30,020 --> 00:14:32,660 S2: us to do the same thing. And there is a 259 00:14:32,660 --> 00:14:34,910 S2: truly belief now that we have to use the institution 260 00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:38,690 S2: of the state to basically win those values. So, no, 261 00:14:38,690 --> 00:14:40,880 S2: I don't think the party there are Republicans that are 262 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,280 S2: committed to it, but I don't think the party, by 263 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,290 S2: and large, at this point is committed to that. Now, 264 00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:48,290 S2: that could turn on a dime when you get the 265 00:14:48,290 --> 00:14:50,960 S2: right candidate, the right leader of the GOP. 266 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,320 S1: So, Adam, what do you think a Trump presidency would 267 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,400 S1: mean for America's allies? I mean, do you think, for example, 268 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,270 S1: Trump would could do a deal with Xi Jinping to say, look, 269 00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:05,450 S1: you have Taiwan. Let's not let's stop arguing about it? 270 00:15:05,450 --> 00:15:08,300 S2: Boy, you know, that's a tough thing. I think I 271 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:11,240 S2: think what it means for the allies is, I mean, obviously, 272 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,550 S2: the allies would be very concerned, as they should be. 273 00:15:13,550 --> 00:15:15,500 S2: I think it does potentially lead. 274 00:15:15,530 --> 00:15:17,840 S1: They will he will he will he walk out of NATO? 275 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:18,990 S1: I mean, he threatened to do that? 276 00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:22,550 S2: I think so. But according to, you know, John Bolton, 277 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,010 S2: he wanted to leave and he was ready to leave. And, 278 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:27,770 S2: you know, people stopped him. So I think that's possible. 279 00:15:27,770 --> 00:15:31,040 S2: I think it's it's he will certainly try to end 280 00:15:31,070 --> 00:15:33,800 S2: the war in Russia or the war in Ukraine, but 281 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,370 S2: not on Ukraine's terms. He will probably withhold the funding 282 00:15:37,370 --> 00:15:39,800 S2: from Ukraine and in essence, cause Ukraine to have to 283 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,380 S2: go to the table for unfavorable deal. You know, I 284 00:15:42,380 --> 00:15:45,530 S2: think Australia will always be an ally. New Zealand will 285 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,890 S2: be an ally. But is it like, how strong is 286 00:15:48,890 --> 00:15:52,190 S2: that alliance? And obviously there be concern on your guys's 287 00:15:52,190 --> 00:15:54,380 S2: ends and and what does it mean for China? He 288 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,530 S2: former president talks very tough on China. He doesn't act 289 00:15:57,530 --> 00:16:00,290 S2: tough on China. And the problem is when you try 290 00:16:00,290 --> 00:16:03,380 S2: to explain to people those details, they just don't understand it. 291 00:16:03,380 --> 00:16:07,310 S1: No. Well, he he he definitely likes dealing with strong men. 292 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,260 S1: I mean, I've seen him with both Putin and Xi 293 00:16:12,260 --> 00:16:17,240 S1: Jinping close up. And he was incredibly deferential to both 294 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,850 S1: of them. And in particular, Putin, who I think he 295 00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:23,000 S1: had a sort of almost a bromance with. Whether he 296 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,370 S1: still feels the same way about Putin, I don't know. 297 00:16:25,370 --> 00:16:29,240 S1: But but he treated Putin with or there's no it 298 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,250 S1: was it was quite, quite eerie, actually. 299 00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:35,420 S2: Yeah, that's interesting. And you got to see that, like firsthand. 300 00:16:35,420 --> 00:16:38,060 S2: And I think the thing that I wish people understood 301 00:16:38,060 --> 00:16:42,470 S2: about Donald Trump, which you do, is okay, anybody that 302 00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:44,660 S2: has ever been a strong ally of Donald Trump that's 303 00:16:44,660 --> 00:16:48,260 S2: defended him, they always end up getting thrown under the bus. Always. 304 00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:52,370 S2: Anybody that's would be seen as kind of like tough 305 00:16:52,370 --> 00:16:57,140 S2: or a competitor. He's always trying to win them over. So, 306 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,750 S2: for instance, I had a meeting, my very first meeting 307 00:16:59,750 --> 00:17:01,520 S2: with Donald Trump right after he was elected. I go 308 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,440 S2: into the Oval Office and I didn't support him in 309 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,230 S2: the 2016 election. I didn't support Hillary, but I just 310 00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:08,210 S2: kind of stayed out of it and he knew that. 311 00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:10,850 S2: So I went into the Oval Office fully expecting he 312 00:17:10,850 --> 00:17:13,310 S2: was going to chew me out. You know, you're you're 313 00:17:13,310 --> 00:17:15,710 S2: disloyal to the party or whatever. And I was ready 314 00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:17,870 S2: for it. He's the new president. He can have a shot. 315 00:17:18,140 --> 00:17:20,320 S2: I go in and the thing he says to me, 316 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:21,650 S2: he looks at me and he goes, Adam, you are 317 00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:26,540 S2: great on television. And it caught me off guard. I'm like, Oh, thanks, Mr. President. 318 00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:29,360 S2: And literally in this meeting with ten people or so, 319 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,720 S2: he just kept telling everybody how good I was on TV. 320 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,880 S2: And about half of the time in that meeting, he's 321 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,600 S2: looking at me. Okay, now I can see how that works. 322 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,659 S2: Then for on people like Lindsey Graham, who all of 323 00:17:41,660 --> 00:17:44,960 S2: a sudden now say, I've got the president's attention. He's watching, 324 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,600 S2: he's paying attention. I have an opportunity to get close 325 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:48,590 S2: to power here. 326 00:17:48,590 --> 00:17:50,810 S1: Well, look at the way he pursued Kim Jong un, 327 00:17:50,810 --> 00:17:54,350 S1: which was I mean, just just surreal. 328 00:17:54,350 --> 00:17:57,139 S2: And he keeps these I mean, from what I've heard, 329 00:17:57,140 --> 00:17:59,240 S2: he keeps some of the letters with Kim Jong un 330 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,540 S2: and loves to talk, if they call him his love letters. No, really, 331 00:18:02,540 --> 00:18:03,620 S2: He wrote me beautiful. 332 00:18:03,619 --> 00:18:08,719 S4: Letters and they're great letters. We fell in love. But 333 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,150 S4: you know what? Now they'll make they'll say, Donald Trump 334 00:18:11,150 --> 00:18:18,160 S4: said they fell in love. How horrible. How horrible. Is that? So. Oh, unpresidential. 335 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,200 S1: Adam, good luck with country first. It's absolutely what's absolutely 336 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,409 S1: vital that you succeed in that the fate of the 337 00:18:32,410 --> 00:18:36,369 S1: democratic world swings on what happens in Washington. 338 00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:38,980 S2: Yeah. And thanks for your leadership in the past and 339 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:41,710 S2: in the present. And I'll tell you, I don't care 340 00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:44,709 S2: if you're left or right out there or something else 341 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:48,310 S2: we have got to have, and not just in the US, 342 00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:52,210 S2: but across the seas, too. Together, we've got to have 343 00:18:52,210 --> 00:18:57,220 S2: an uneasy, sometimes unnatural or tentative alliance between people that 344 00:18:57,220 --> 00:18:59,950 S2: think differently but do believe in one thing, and that 345 00:18:59,950 --> 00:19:02,169 S2: is democracy, because we are in that fight now to 346 00:19:02,170 --> 00:19:03,790 S2: defend democracy around the world. 347 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,980 S1: We are. Thank you very much. 348 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:07,450 S2: You bet. Great to see you. 349 00:19:19,330 --> 00:19:22,690 S1: The podcast was written and produced by myself and Lisa Main. 350 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,300 S1: Music was composed by Helena Chaika.