1 00:00:02,590 --> 00:00:04,300 S1: A listener production. 2 00:00:09,100 --> 00:00:13,750 S2: Welcome to Crime Insider's forensics. For those joining us for 3 00:00:13,750 --> 00:00:17,830 S2: the first time. My name's Catherine Fox. I'm a former GP, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:23,410 S2: crime author and screenwriter. I'm enthralled by forensics and have 5 00:00:23,410 --> 00:00:27,730 S2: spent thousands of hours researching for books and screenplays. So 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,350 S2: I thought, why not turn my research into a podcast? 7 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,820 S2: Every week you'll be joining me in discovering how forensic 8 00:00:36,820 --> 00:00:40,750 S2: science is helping solve high profile crimes in Australia and 9 00:00:40,750 --> 00:00:45,729 S2: around the world. This week, the fingerprint science behind one 10 00:00:45,729 --> 00:00:49,120 S2: of the world's most contentious homicide investigations. 11 00:00:51,460 --> 00:00:54,040 S3: It was just that one fingerprint and how it was 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,640 S3: used in this particular case that created enough doubt in 13 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,340 S3: the jury's mind that the only outcome that they could 14 00:01:00,340 --> 00:01:02,590 S3: proceed with was an acquittal. 15 00:01:03,490 --> 00:01:07,120 S2: Doctor Scott Chadwick is an expert in finger mark detection 16 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,529 S2: at the UTS centre for Forensic Science. His research focuses 17 00:01:11,530 --> 00:01:15,580 S2: on pushing the boundaries of fingerprint analysis, from improving conventional 18 00:01:15,580 --> 00:01:20,320 S2: fingerprint detection methods to producing prints on challenging surfaces. 19 00:01:20,350 --> 00:01:24,340 S3: We're actually able to recover fingerprints from documents for up 20 00:01:24,340 --> 00:01:25,539 S3: to 70 years. 21 00:01:26,650 --> 00:01:31,660 S2: Our conversation begins with the officially closed but unsolved Engelbart's 22 00:01:31,660 --> 00:01:36,790 S2: murder investigation. It's a story where a single fingerprint affected 23 00:01:36,790 --> 00:01:41,470 S2: the outcome and determined whether the suspected killer was acquitted 24 00:01:41,470 --> 00:01:51,120 S2: or convicted. Ingle Lotz was a 22 year old master's student. 25 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,200 S2: She was studying mathematics in University town of Stellenbosch in 26 00:01:55,200 --> 00:02:01,280 S2: South Africa. She was found in her very secure apartment block, 27 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,880 S2: sitting on her lounge cross-legged with a magazine in front 28 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,690 S2: of her in a very relaxed position. But the tragedy 29 00:02:08,690 --> 00:02:12,020 S2: of this is that she was bludgeoned and stabbed multiple 30 00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:17,660 S2: times in what seems like a very violent, very targeted attack. 31 00:02:17,990 --> 00:02:23,900 S2: And police automatically looked, as they usually do, to the 32 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:27,650 S2: people who were closest to her. And as it transpires, 33 00:02:27,650 --> 00:02:33,350 S2: her boyfriend, Fred VanDerveer, had a fight with her that morning. 34 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,650 S2: She'd written a note to him and told someone she'd 35 00:02:36,650 --> 00:02:39,770 S2: met at lunch that their relationship was over, so police 36 00:02:39,770 --> 00:02:44,900 S2: automatically targeted him as the most likely suspect. But can 37 00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:48,109 S2: you please talk about why that was not the wisest 38 00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:50,419 S2: move for the police to make at the time? 39 00:02:51,470 --> 00:02:56,270 S3: Yeah. So a key part of this particular case was 40 00:02:56,270 --> 00:03:00,350 S3: that they recovered a fingerprint on a DVD case. So 41 00:03:00,350 --> 00:03:03,260 S3: the events leading up to her murder in the morning, 42 00:03:03,260 --> 00:03:05,570 S3: she went to university. And as you said, she had 43 00:03:05,570 --> 00:03:08,810 S3: her lunch with a friend. And then on her way home, 44 00:03:08,810 --> 00:03:12,500 S3: she went to a video store and picked up a 45 00:03:12,500 --> 00:03:17,419 S3: DVD to watch that evening. And when she came home 46 00:03:17,419 --> 00:03:22,010 S3: where she was living, it was a secure compound. There 47 00:03:22,010 --> 00:03:25,400 S3: wasn't any signs of forced entry. You needed a. 48 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,310 S2: Remote control to enter and exit the compound. Yes. 49 00:03:28,790 --> 00:03:32,299 S3: It wasn't CCTV cameras at that particular time. It was 50 00:03:32,570 --> 00:03:37,880 S3: in the early 2000. But whoever committed the crime, it's 51 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:39,890 S3: believed that Inga knew that person. 52 00:03:39,890 --> 00:03:42,320 S2: So they had access to this community? 53 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,710 S3: Yes. Or Inga recognized that person and then let them 54 00:03:45,710 --> 00:03:47,180 S3: into her house. 55 00:03:47,270 --> 00:03:50,390 S2: We should probably say, too, that she was wearing pajamas, 56 00:03:50,750 --> 00:03:54,740 S2: and she was apparently a devoted Christian and very modest, 57 00:03:54,740 --> 00:03:59,180 S2: and her boyfriend was even more conservative and didn't approve 58 00:03:59,180 --> 00:04:02,600 S2: of her wearing, um, thin straps. And unless he was 59 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,660 S2: with her. So to be in a position where she 60 00:04:05,660 --> 00:04:11,210 S2: was wearing very casual pajamas. Given the context that she 61 00:04:11,210 --> 00:04:14,600 S2: and her partner also allegedly had no physical contact because 62 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,870 S2: he believed that any physical contact could lead to sexual 63 00:04:17,870 --> 00:04:22,880 S2: activity in a relationship, she therefore, in that context, it 64 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,970 S2: wasn't just like anybody sitting there in their pajamas. For her, 65 00:04:25,970 --> 00:04:30,290 S2: this was an intimate situation. So I think that's easier 66 00:04:30,290 --> 00:04:34,070 S2: to assume that someone who was in her apartment was 67 00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:36,229 S2: let in. And to be in that casual position, sitting, 68 00:04:36,230 --> 00:04:40,580 S2: reading a magazine. She obviously didn't suspect anything. 69 00:04:40,940 --> 00:04:45,020 S3: Yeah, absolutely. She was obviously very comfortable in the person 70 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:48,710 S3: that she invited in. If you're in your pajamas, you're 71 00:04:48,710 --> 00:04:51,890 S3: in a state of relative undress, but you would be 72 00:04:51,890 --> 00:04:54,620 S3: comfortable with the person. Otherwise you put a jacket on 73 00:04:54,620 --> 00:04:58,520 S3: or you'd want to cover yourself and the other side 74 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,539 S3: to interpret it is that perhaps she wasn't expecting a 75 00:05:02,540 --> 00:05:05,750 S3: visitor that evening, in that she was in her pajamas 76 00:05:05,750 --> 00:05:07,729 S3: to watch a movie at home and then go to 77 00:05:07,730 --> 00:05:10,550 S3: bed and not expecting someone to come over. 78 00:05:11,650 --> 00:05:14,680 S2: From what I've read at the scene, there were seven 79 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:20,380 S2: police plodding through the crime scene, and they weren't necessarily experienced, 80 00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:24,580 S2: but obviously they had to try and find evidence, and 81 00:05:24,580 --> 00:05:27,070 S2: fingerprints were one of the first things they started with. 82 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,339 S2: So can you talk about the fingerprints that were taken, 83 00:05:30,339 --> 00:05:33,250 S2: how they were identified and where they were taken from? 84 00:05:33,870 --> 00:05:37,049 S3: The fingerprints that were taken, or a key fingerprint that 85 00:05:37,050 --> 00:05:40,710 S3: was recovered from the crime scene, according to police, was 86 00:05:40,710 --> 00:05:45,179 S3: that there was a fingerprint that was linked to Fred, 87 00:05:45,450 --> 00:05:49,230 S3: her then boyfriend found on the DVD case. So it's 88 00:05:49,230 --> 00:05:52,350 S3: important when we think about this type of evidence, is 89 00:05:52,350 --> 00:05:57,480 S3: that we can't specifically date when a fingerprint is deposited. 90 00:05:57,930 --> 00:06:00,599 S3: We don't have that technology to be able to do that. 91 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,710 S3: So sometimes we need to use additional information around the 92 00:06:04,710 --> 00:06:09,210 S3: context of the case to help us recreate events or 93 00:06:09,210 --> 00:06:13,320 S3: understand what happened during the events of a crime. And so, 94 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,060 S3: because he had been there earlier that day, recovering a 95 00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:21,659 S3: fingerprint at the house could be explained away, is that 96 00:06:21,660 --> 00:06:26,070 S3: it was deposited before the crime. Uh, it was just 97 00:06:26,070 --> 00:06:29,220 S3: their usual, you know, activities that they were doing together. 98 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:31,560 S2: You expect to find them on the bathroom door or 99 00:06:31,650 --> 00:06:32,910 S2: a sink, maybe? 100 00:06:32,910 --> 00:06:35,580 S3: Yeah. Just. I mean, we touch a whole bunch of 101 00:06:35,580 --> 00:06:39,029 S3: things when we enter rooms. If we see that tables, 102 00:06:39,180 --> 00:06:42,360 S3: we do it completely unconsciously. So the key part here 103 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,140 S3: was that because she had gone to the video store 104 00:06:46,140 --> 00:06:50,550 S3: that afternoon and rented that specific DVD, recovering a fingerprint 105 00:06:50,550 --> 00:06:54,719 S3: that matched Fred on the DVD case, put him in 106 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,969 S3: that apartment in that afternoon, and it was indicating that 107 00:06:59,970 --> 00:07:05,549 S3: he was there after the initial fight and disagreement in 108 00:07:05,550 --> 00:07:09,150 S3: the morning, and then also her day at university at lunchtime. 109 00:07:09,150 --> 00:07:11,970 S2: And he'd been denying being in the house since then. 110 00:07:11,970 --> 00:07:14,970 S3: Yes, absolutely. So it was, uh, was putting him in 111 00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:18,600 S3: her apartment that afternoon and it went against what his 112 00:07:18,690 --> 00:07:19,620 S3: story was. 113 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,239 S2: So when the fingerprint is go in, what is their 114 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,540 S2: process to take fingerprints and what do they target. 115 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:30,600 S3: With any sort of examination? The first thing that we 116 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,870 S3: would always do is do an optical examination. So we 117 00:07:33,870 --> 00:07:38,580 S3: will do a light search. So using very basic colored torches, 118 00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:41,280 S3: the crime scene investigators will do a search. Now the 119 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,040 S3: areas that they're going to focus on usually are around 120 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,760 S3: points of entry or places where it's likely that there's 121 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,570 S3: been contact with someone's hand. So door frames not so 122 00:07:51,570 --> 00:07:55,740 S3: much door handles just because they tend to be curved 123 00:07:55,740 --> 00:07:59,940 S3: and really tightly curved surfaces are hard for us to 124 00:07:59,940 --> 00:08:00,360 S3: image and. 125 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:01,860 S2: Recover even though they're metal. 126 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:04,590 S3: Yeah, even though they're metal. Whereas if you open a door, 127 00:08:04,590 --> 00:08:06,960 S3: you'll often push the handle down and then use your 128 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,630 S3: other hand to to push the door open. So usually 129 00:08:09,630 --> 00:08:14,580 S3: around shoulder height is where they'll they'll focus specifically around 130 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:18,150 S3: window frames, particularly at the base of the frame. If 131 00:08:18,150 --> 00:08:21,240 S3: somebody is climbing through a window, they'll put their hands 132 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,270 S3: on the frame and then lift themselves up to get 133 00:08:24,270 --> 00:08:28,140 S3: inside or to exit. And it's usually just those places 134 00:08:28,140 --> 00:08:32,370 S3: where it's suspected of high touch. But then where the 135 00:08:32,370 --> 00:08:38,309 S3: likelihood of recovering a usable fingerprint is going to be high. And. 136 00:08:39,050 --> 00:08:43,370 S3: Focusing also on items of interest when they do their 137 00:08:43,370 --> 00:08:46,370 S3: initial examination. There is if we go and try to 138 00:08:46,550 --> 00:08:51,290 S3: develop everything, we're going to create a big mess, but 139 00:08:51,290 --> 00:08:55,040 S3: we're also going to create, if there are fingerprints that 140 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,910 S3: we recover, is it going to be useful? So there 141 00:08:58,910 --> 00:09:02,179 S3: is a bit of hypothesis formation that the crime scene 142 00:09:02,179 --> 00:09:06,470 S3: examiners will do, and asking questions of where looking at 143 00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:09,500 S3: the scene, looking at the the type of crime that occurred, 144 00:09:09,500 --> 00:09:13,850 S3: where is the most likely place to recover a usable fingerprint. 145 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:18,120 S2: So what are you actually using to recover the fingerprints? 146 00:09:18,390 --> 00:09:21,750 S3: So at a crime scene, the most common development method 147 00:09:21,750 --> 00:09:25,980 S3: that we will use is powdering. And powdering is where 148 00:09:25,980 --> 00:09:28,890 S3: we would use a very fine powder. In a lot 149 00:09:28,890 --> 00:09:32,340 S3: of cases we have black fingerprint powder, which is a 150 00:09:32,340 --> 00:09:36,390 S3: form of activated charcoal which is really useful for surfaces 151 00:09:36,390 --> 00:09:40,770 S3: like metal, like glass, anything that's light in color. 152 00:09:41,190 --> 00:09:42,240 S2: Because you get a contrast. 153 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,790 S3: Yeah, you can image it. You have your your white 154 00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:48,300 S3: light and you can image it with your digital cameras very, 155 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:53,760 S3: very easily. If the surface is dark or it's reflective, 156 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,900 S3: if it's got background, we might use other more specialized powders. Um, 157 00:09:57,900 --> 00:09:59,670 S3: they might just be a white powder. So one we 158 00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:04,230 S3: use is titanium dioxide. Or we will use what we 159 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:09,089 S3: call fluorescent or luminescent powders. And this is where using 160 00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:12,900 S3: the colored lights and special filters on the camera, we'll 161 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:17,309 S3: be able to remove any interference from the surface to 162 00:10:17,309 --> 00:10:18,750 S3: enhance the contrast. 163 00:10:19,170 --> 00:10:22,860 S2: So you remove reflection and other confounding variables. 164 00:10:22,860 --> 00:10:26,040 S3: Yeah. So if something is very highly patterned or textured, 165 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,880 S3: if you have a regular black or white powder, the 166 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,260 S3: background that that finger mark was deposited on can sometimes interfere. 167 00:10:34,410 --> 00:10:36,360 S3: And the goal here is to try and get the 168 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,329 S3: highest quality finger mark so that we have the best 169 00:10:39,330 --> 00:10:43,980 S3: chances of making an identification. And so by using fluorescent 170 00:10:43,980 --> 00:10:48,120 S3: or luminescent powders, we can reduce the interference from the 171 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:53,220 S3: background and then produce a mark of hopefully identifiable quality. 172 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,730 S2: Do any of those techniques ruin the items? 173 00:10:57,270 --> 00:10:59,880 S3: The ones that we use at the crime scene can 174 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,540 S3: be cleaned very easily. There are usually just wiped down 175 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:07,680 S3: with some disinfectant and spray and wipe. But if we're 176 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,210 S3: collecting samples to then analyze at the laboratory. So certain 177 00:11:12,210 --> 00:11:15,420 S3: types of evidence we can't develop with powders. So we 178 00:11:15,420 --> 00:11:17,880 S3: would have to collect it and take it to the laboratory. 179 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,939 S3: And in a lot of the cases for the laboratory 180 00:11:20,940 --> 00:11:26,130 S3: development methods, they're damaged beyond repair or they're exposed to 181 00:11:26,130 --> 00:11:30,449 S3: chemicals which are hazardous, that we wouldn't feel comfortable returning 182 00:11:30,450 --> 00:11:33,900 S3: back to individuals because it may not be safe for 183 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:35,130 S3: them to to use them. 184 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:38,130 S2: So in this scene, I mean, the first thought I 185 00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:41,309 S2: had for a DVD case is they're generally generic. This 186 00:11:41,309 --> 00:11:43,950 S2: was a generic DVD case, so the person at the 187 00:11:43,950 --> 00:11:46,829 S2: store just grabs the next one that's empty. So it's 188 00:11:46,830 --> 00:11:49,410 S2: not specific. So you can't then go back. Who who 189 00:11:49,410 --> 00:11:53,670 S2: borrowed that DVD before you, and how many fingerprints on 190 00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:56,189 S2: earth would be on a DVD case that had been 191 00:11:56,190 --> 00:12:00,930 S2: hired out repeatedly, and chances are not wiped down very frequently? 192 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,660 S2: I just thought it was interesting that they targeted a 193 00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:06,960 S2: DVD case, and they may not have known necessarily when 194 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,300 S2: that was rented. 195 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,970 S3: Yeah, it definitely raised some questions, but it helped the 196 00:12:14,970 --> 00:12:17,730 S3: story that the police were wanting to. 197 00:12:18,330 --> 00:12:19,349 S2: Fit it. 198 00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:23,309 S3: Exactly because it put Fred in that location in that 199 00:12:23,309 --> 00:12:27,330 S3: afternoon where he didn't have an alibi or his story 200 00:12:27,330 --> 00:12:30,570 S3: didn't match up. So it was very much a gotcha 201 00:12:30,570 --> 00:12:34,020 S3: type piece. It was what they would call a smoking gun, 202 00:12:34,020 --> 00:12:37,500 S3: I guess, because it it put him in that apartment 203 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:41,010 S3: that afternoon and it could not be explained. He'd already 204 00:12:41,010 --> 00:12:43,290 S3: given his story and said he wasn't there, but this 205 00:12:43,290 --> 00:12:46,710 S3: was seen as well. According to the evidence that we've recovered, 206 00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:50,220 S3: you were there. You're lying. That implies some level of guilt. 207 00:12:51,090 --> 00:12:55,770 S2: So you'd like DNA. People assume that that's, um, incontrovertible 208 00:12:55,770 --> 00:13:00,660 S2: that that that is the absolute gotcha moment. So why 209 00:13:00,660 --> 00:13:02,910 S2: was that challenged in this case? 210 00:13:03,540 --> 00:13:07,590 S3: Yeah. So there was a few interesting things with this 211 00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:11,790 S3: particular fingerprint. So the first one was that the evidence 212 00:13:11,790 --> 00:13:16,350 S3: that the police submitted, there was no recorded image of 213 00:13:16,350 --> 00:13:21,360 S3: the fingerprint on the DVD case. So when we would 214 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,550 S3: go to a crime scene, if we develop a fingerprint 215 00:13:23,550 --> 00:13:26,849 S3: at the crime scene, we will always take an image 216 00:13:26,850 --> 00:13:30,300 S3: of that fingerprint, because that is a direct indication that 217 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:34,350 S3: we have recovered and developed that fingerprint on that particular surface. 218 00:13:34,350 --> 00:13:36,390 S2: It's shareable, it's reproducible. 219 00:13:36,390 --> 00:13:40,380 S3: It's it's trackable. It's it's will have an individual number. 220 00:13:40,380 --> 00:13:42,750 S3: And we can then add that into any sort of 221 00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:46,470 S3: crime scene reconstructions that we do. It helps us understand 222 00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:47,280 S3: what happened. 223 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:48,780 S2: And you have a fixed chain of evidence. 224 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:51,810 S3: Exactly. We have a chain of custody and the image 225 00:13:51,809 --> 00:13:56,280 S3: is recorded. It's linked to that particular evidence item. Timed times. Yep. 226 00:13:56,309 --> 00:14:01,890 S3: Time stamped everything. So it's trackable. Essentially, once we image 227 00:14:01,890 --> 00:14:05,400 S3: that fingerprint at the scene, what would happen is in 228 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,510 S3: some cases they might take a lift. So using either 229 00:14:09,510 --> 00:14:13,920 S3: a gelatin lift or a special type of of tape adhesive, they. 230 00:14:14,010 --> 00:14:18,090 S3: It will take that powdered finger mark or fingerprint and 231 00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:20,850 S3: lift it off the surface to then take back to 232 00:14:20,850 --> 00:14:23,460 S3: the laboratory if they wanted to do any further imaging 233 00:14:23,460 --> 00:14:27,900 S3: or analysis in case there was, you know, an issue 234 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:31,680 S3: at the crime scene with the photography. So in this 235 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,010 S3: particular case, there was no recorded image of the developed 236 00:14:35,010 --> 00:14:38,220 S3: fingerprint at the crime scene. There was only an image 237 00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:44,270 S3: of the tape lift. And that in itself introduced some 238 00:14:44,270 --> 00:14:47,060 S3: doubt into that piece of evidence. 239 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:51,410 S2: Questioning from what? Was that actual fingerprint lifted? Yeah. 240 00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:53,870 S3: So the police were reporting that it was recovered from 241 00:14:53,870 --> 00:14:57,080 S3: the DVD case, but without an actual image of that 242 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,840 S3: develop marked on the DVD case, it could have come 243 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:00,770 S3: from anywhere. 244 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,450 S2: Is there a way of differentiating whether this was taken 245 00:15:05,450 --> 00:15:10,730 S2: from a DVD case versus another item in the apartment? 246 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,260 S3: Yeah. So in this particular case, because of that initial doubt, 247 00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:19,970 S3: Fred's defense team reached out to a range of international 248 00:15:19,970 --> 00:15:26,090 S3: fingerprint experts because there were some interesting artifacts that couldn't 249 00:15:26,090 --> 00:15:30,740 S3: be clearly explained by police on the on the lift. 250 00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:35,570 S3: In those particular cases, the lifted print had a thin 251 00:15:35,570 --> 00:15:40,400 S3: white line at the top and a smudging that occurred 252 00:15:40,490 --> 00:15:44,390 S3: on that same line. The other point that was curious, 253 00:15:44,390 --> 00:15:50,480 S3: but could potentially be explained, was the fingerprint orientation was 254 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:55,940 S3: slightly curved, and there were just some questions about how 255 00:15:55,940 --> 00:15:58,340 S3: this could have happened or how this could have been 256 00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:01,910 S3: recovered from a DVD case. So the fingerprint experts went 257 00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:06,170 S3: about and conducted a series of experiments using a range 258 00:16:06,170 --> 00:16:10,610 S3: of DVD cases, different types of plastics, different types of shapes. 259 00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:12,620 S2: Which are flat DVD cases. 260 00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:15,920 S3: Which which are flat, and then try different orientations of 261 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,800 S3: how they held the DVD case, the positions that they 262 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:19,340 S3: held it in. 263 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:20,330 S4: Yeah. 264 00:16:20,390 --> 00:16:23,660 S3: And did an experiment and did a scientific experiment to 265 00:16:23,660 --> 00:16:27,680 S3: try and reproduce those three factors. The thin white line, 266 00:16:27,830 --> 00:16:31,460 S3: the smudge that occurred on the white line and the 267 00:16:31,460 --> 00:16:35,060 S3: curvature of the finger. And throughout all of their experiments, 268 00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:40,280 S3: they were not able to reproduce those three artifacts in 269 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,930 S3: a repeatable and consistent manner in any of the circumstances 270 00:16:44,930 --> 00:16:49,430 S3: that they conducted the experiment. And it wasn't until they 271 00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:53,090 S3: trialed other types of surfaces that they were able to 272 00:16:53,090 --> 00:16:57,260 S3: reproduce some of those characteristics, and the one where they 273 00:16:57,260 --> 00:17:01,460 S3: were able to successfully reproduce those characteristics was by lifting 274 00:17:01,460 --> 00:17:04,190 S3: a fingerprint off a glass. 275 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,470 S2: A rounded glass, a. 276 00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:07,910 S3: Drinking glass, yes. 277 00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:12,709 S2: So why is a fingerprint on a rounded glass so 278 00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:13,700 S2: very different? 279 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,110 S3: Well, it's to do with the characteristics of the surface 280 00:17:18,109 --> 00:17:21,350 S3: that we deposit the fingerprint on. So as you mentioned earlier, 281 00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:25,400 S3: a DVD case is a very flat and smooth surface. 282 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,369 S3: There is the, the edges of the of the case, 283 00:17:28,369 --> 00:17:31,490 S3: but then the edges are also quite rounded and they're 284 00:17:31,490 --> 00:17:35,630 S3: not a thin sort of edge. It's more yeah, just 285 00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:39,139 S3: a bit more of a curved edge. Whereas the drinking 286 00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:43,010 S3: glasses that we have, well, they're quite curved in their nature. 287 00:17:43,010 --> 00:17:46,850 S3: And the lip of the glass is also quite thin. 288 00:17:46,850 --> 00:17:51,020 S3: So the structure of these items are very, very different. 289 00:17:51,020 --> 00:17:54,740 S3: And how we handle them, how we use them will 290 00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:57,500 S3: leave different types of impressions when we touch them. 291 00:17:58,270 --> 00:18:01,480 S2: And from different parts of the fingers as well. 292 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,510 S3: Yeah, if we think about how we hold certain items. 293 00:18:04,510 --> 00:18:07,420 S3: So if we're holding a DVD case, we might put 294 00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:09,670 S3: our thumb on the front and have our four fingers 295 00:18:09,670 --> 00:18:12,399 S3: at the back and our fingers will be quite straight 296 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,220 S3: along the straight edge. Whereas if we think about how 297 00:18:15,220 --> 00:18:17,800 S3: we hold a glass again, we might have that same 298 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,409 S3: position where our thumb is at the front, but the 299 00:18:20,410 --> 00:18:23,199 S3: curvature of our fingers as it wraps around the glass 300 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,680 S3: is going to be different. The parts of our finger 301 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,050 S3: that are in contact with the glass will also be 302 00:18:29,050 --> 00:18:32,770 S3: slightly different. Our fingers tend to curve slightly upwards when 303 00:18:32,770 --> 00:18:37,119 S3: we have curved surfaces, particularly the the index finger compared 304 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:42,179 S3: to the other fingers that we have and. If we 305 00:18:42,180 --> 00:18:46,320 S3: take it off, we'll see more of the towards the palm. 306 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,030 S2: Because that's what we we don't normally trust for the 307 00:18:50,030 --> 00:18:54,649 S2: drinking vessel. If it's glass. We normally take the weight 308 00:18:54,650 --> 00:18:56,960 S2: in our palm. Yeah. Rather than rely on a couple 309 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,340 S2: of fingers to hold it. 310 00:18:58,340 --> 00:19:02,149 S3: Yeah, exactly. So when they did this experiment, they lift, 311 00:19:02,150 --> 00:19:06,619 S3: they powdered the fingerprint off the glass. Uh, they then 312 00:19:06,619 --> 00:19:09,590 S3: lifted it. And what they found was the thin white 313 00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:13,400 S3: line at the top was actually the lip of the glass, 314 00:19:13,550 --> 00:19:16,790 S3: because there would be some powder developing, just sort of 315 00:19:16,790 --> 00:19:19,160 S3: sticking to the edge. Usually when we drink, there's some 316 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,810 S3: moisture there. And powder fingerprint powders are adhering to moisture. 317 00:19:23,810 --> 00:19:27,890 S3: It's not a chemical reaction that's occurring specifically with the fingerprint. 318 00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:31,550 S3: It's just sticking to the sweat and oils or just 319 00:19:31,550 --> 00:19:35,480 S3: any moisture that it can get into contact with. So 320 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:39,320 S3: there was some thin powder being developed on the lip 321 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,500 S3: of the glass. And then that that smudge that was 322 00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:46,100 S3: occurring across the thin white line was actually a lip 323 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:50,180 S3: print that had been developed because as you drink a glass, 324 00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:53,900 S3: you take your lip to the edge and you're leaving behind, 325 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:59,150 S3: not as identifiable as a fingerprint, but still able to 326 00:19:59,150 --> 00:20:00,770 S3: be developed with with powder. 327 00:20:01,790 --> 00:20:03,859 S2: So if that was found in the apartment and the 328 00:20:03,859 --> 00:20:06,770 S2: police allegedly took it from a glass, not from the 329 00:20:06,770 --> 00:20:10,100 S2: DVD case, then that blows a massive hole in their 330 00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:14,750 S2: prosecutors and story. In terms of glasses in houses, does 331 00:20:14,750 --> 00:20:18,590 S2: a dishwasher remove every fingerprint? Does rinsing remove fingerprints? What 332 00:20:18,590 --> 00:20:22,280 S2: is likely to be still there after things have been washed. 333 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,540 S3: In fingerprint science? There's there's two sort of divisions. There's 334 00:20:26,660 --> 00:20:31,790 S3: what we call non-porous surfaces. So these are things like metal, glass, uh, 335 00:20:31,790 --> 00:20:35,540 S3: ceramic tiles where when we touch that surface, the sweats 336 00:20:35,540 --> 00:20:39,320 S3: and oils from our fingerprints will just sit on the 337 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,939 S3: surface and it won't seep into that surface, so they're 338 00:20:43,940 --> 00:20:48,679 S3: not well protected. So if we wash that glass or 339 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,920 S3: that item, we would not be able to recover a 340 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,850 S3: fingerprint afterwards because the sweats and oils have been washed 341 00:20:55,850 --> 00:20:56,869 S3: away completely. 342 00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:59,030 S2: Unless that person puts it in the draining tray or 343 00:20:59,030 --> 00:21:00,770 S2: puts it in the cupboard again. So then you've got 344 00:21:00,770 --> 00:21:01,220 S2: contact again. 345 00:21:01,220 --> 00:21:04,189 S3: Yeah, since the last contact. And then the other area 346 00:21:04,190 --> 00:21:08,359 S3: of fingerprints is looking at the other area of surfaces 347 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,290 S3: is the porous. And this is things like paper and cardboard. 348 00:21:12,290 --> 00:21:16,580 S3: Now in these particular surfaces the sweats and oils will 349 00:21:16,580 --> 00:21:20,600 S3: seep into the surface and get trapped in the paper 350 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,130 S3: or cardboard fibers. And in those instances they're protected. So 351 00:21:25,130 --> 00:21:30,020 S3: we're actually able to recover fingerprints from documents for up 352 00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:35,270 S3: to 70 years using specialized chemical detection techniques. So in 353 00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:38,300 S3: those instances, if you wash it in water, if you 354 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:40,490 S3: throw it in a sink and try and wash it 355 00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:42,950 S3: up and then dry it later, some of the components 356 00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:46,460 S3: of the fingerprint will be washed away, but some components 357 00:21:46,460 --> 00:21:50,630 S3: will still remain, and we can choose different development techniques 358 00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:52,550 S3: to target specific components. 359 00:21:53,530 --> 00:21:56,889 S2: This was a big, big trial with lots of international 360 00:21:56,890 --> 00:21:58,810 S2: experts involved, which is unusual. 361 00:21:58,869 --> 00:21:59,679 S3: Absolutely. 362 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:06,190 S2: So what happened when these international experts reproduced and challenged 363 00:22:06,190 --> 00:22:08,710 S2: whether or not that fingerprint was on the DVD? 364 00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:13,540 S3: Yeah. So it created enough doubt in the case for 365 00:22:13,540 --> 00:22:18,200 S3: a mistrial to proceed because. The police were not able 366 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,460 S3: to produce that image of the fingerprint being recovered or 367 00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:25,520 S3: the fingerprint being developed on the DVD case. And so 368 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,219 S3: when the police were asked to provide this piece of 369 00:22:28,220 --> 00:22:32,959 S3: evidence and they were not able to that particular evidence, 370 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:38,179 S3: the fingerprints was stricken from the the proceedings and could 371 00:22:38,180 --> 00:22:42,290 S3: not be considered in the judgment. And without that timing 372 00:22:42,290 --> 00:22:45,020 S3: of the fingerprint being on the DVD case in that 373 00:22:45,020 --> 00:22:49,370 S3: particular afternoon, other elements became a little bit more circumstantial. 374 00:22:49,369 --> 00:22:52,820 S3: It could be explained away. And so it created enough 375 00:22:52,820 --> 00:22:55,850 S3: doubt in the minds of the judge and the jury 376 00:22:55,850 --> 00:22:59,060 S3: that it was not able to move to a conviction. 377 00:22:59,420 --> 00:23:01,910 S2: We should probably mention what happened to the DVD case. 378 00:23:01,910 --> 00:23:03,740 S2: Why was that not held in evidence? 379 00:23:04,580 --> 00:23:09,770 S3: So there's two minds here in that the DVD case 380 00:23:09,770 --> 00:23:15,440 S3: in question either wasn't initially powdered and there wasn't any 381 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,939 S3: finger mark recovered on there, or it was powdered and 382 00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:22,520 S3: followed the particular proceedings, but there was no usable or 383 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,230 S3: identifiable fingerprints developed. And that couldn't specifically link to Fred because, 384 00:23:27,230 --> 00:23:30,109 S3: as you've mentioned, if you pick up a DVD from 385 00:23:30,109 --> 00:23:33,710 S3: a video store, it's very unlikely to have been cleaned earlier. 386 00:23:33,710 --> 00:23:37,879 S3: So there may be a lot of background fingerprints on there. 387 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,459 S3: So there may have been evidence that he touched it, 388 00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:45,350 S3: but it wasn't enough. There wasn't enough identifiable information to 389 00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:48,410 S3: confirm that it was Fred's. So this was seen as 390 00:23:48,410 --> 00:23:52,610 S3: a way to assure an outcome by having an identifiable 391 00:23:52,609 --> 00:23:56,120 S3: fingerprint that they said came from the DVD case, which 392 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,170 S3: would then corroborate the story that the prosecution were wanting 393 00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:00,980 S3: to put forward. 394 00:24:01,130 --> 00:24:04,610 S2: One of the things that I found incomprehensible in this 395 00:24:04,609 --> 00:24:08,990 S2: case was that apparently the police handed back the DVD 396 00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:11,810 S2: case to the DVD shop. 397 00:24:12,950 --> 00:24:18,320 S3: Yeah. We talked earlier about evidence integrity and chain of custody. Yes. 398 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,470 S3: And that's obviously an example of what not to do. 399 00:24:21,470 --> 00:24:25,639 S3: And in particular, it's probably because just to speculate that 400 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,580 S3: they didn't think it was important or it didn't have 401 00:24:28,580 --> 00:24:30,920 S3: value at that particular point in time. 402 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,890 S2: Presumably if they had dusted it, they would have had 403 00:24:33,890 --> 00:24:37,520 S2: to have cleaned it before returning it to the DVD store. Yeah. 404 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:42,410 S2: So the whole story really does fall apart, doesn't it? 405 00:24:42,410 --> 00:24:47,030 S2: In terms of credibility and plausibility on the part of 406 00:24:47,030 --> 00:24:48,409 S2: the police's behaviour? 407 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:52,730 S3: Yeah, absolutely. It really put a spotlight on the police 408 00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:57,530 S3: conducting that investigation and for good reason, because fingerprints are 409 00:24:57,530 --> 00:25:00,710 S3: an important piece of evidence in a lot of criminal investigations, 410 00:25:00,710 --> 00:25:04,640 S3: and they carry a significant amount of weight because they 411 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,820 S3: can be used to identify an individual when we use 412 00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:11,030 S3: it appropriately and for the purposes that they are intended. 413 00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:15,900 S3: They are an incredible, useful tool. But they can be 414 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:22,350 S3: manipulated or used inappropriately to achieve a particular outcome that 415 00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:28,170 S3: benefits a party. And when we use science in that way, 416 00:25:28,170 --> 00:25:32,100 S3: or use evidence like fingerprints or DNA, it's where we 417 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:36,270 S3: get cases like this and it brings the entire forensic 418 00:25:36,270 --> 00:25:41,250 S3: discipline into disrepute and dis, you know, disregard. So it 419 00:25:41,250 --> 00:25:44,790 S3: just really highlights the value that forensic science is an 420 00:25:44,790 --> 00:25:48,900 S3: important tool in criminal investigation, but it always comes down 421 00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:51,900 S3: to who wields it and what their intentions are. And 422 00:25:52,020 --> 00:25:55,770 S3: as a forensic scientist, you need to be unbiased in 423 00:25:55,770 --> 00:25:59,310 S3: what you do. And while in some cases you assist 424 00:25:59,490 --> 00:26:04,080 S3: police in investigations, you're not there to achieve a particular 425 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,130 S3: outcome or get a specific conviction. That's not not our role. 426 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,840 S2: It seems to me it's a lot in some way. 427 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,080 S2: There are parallels with the OJ Simpson case in that 428 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,390 S2: part of the evidence found, as I understand it in 429 00:26:30,390 --> 00:26:35,399 S2: OJ's trial, was that someone had deposited a bit of blood, 430 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,960 S2: but it actually had the preservative from a blood tube taken, 431 00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:44,820 S2: and to have done that is beyond my comprehension. But 432 00:26:44,820 --> 00:26:48,840 S2: it then absolutely tainted all of the evidence, because if 433 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,520 S2: one bit of evidence was fraudulently placed, what else was 434 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,510 S2: rigged and and incorrect and inaccurate and what else was 435 00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:59,940 S2: a fed up? So you can see why a jury 436 00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:02,280 S2: would suddenly doubt the science. 437 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,100 S3: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the parallel to the OJ 438 00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:08,340 S3: Simpson case is is accurate. It's important. And it raises 439 00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:12,870 S3: another point in that the crime scene is an important 440 00:27:12,869 --> 00:27:17,570 S3: part of the investigations that we do. And. It's not 441 00:27:17,570 --> 00:27:21,410 S3: something that we can go back to and retrial or 442 00:27:21,410 --> 00:27:23,900 S3: re if we make a mistake at the crime scene, 443 00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:27,409 S3: that mistake carries all the way through the investigation, and 444 00:27:27,410 --> 00:27:30,530 S3: we will only get one shot to do things appropriately. 445 00:27:30,530 --> 00:27:33,650 S3: And by, uh, you know, by the standards that we 446 00:27:33,650 --> 00:27:37,460 S3: have and in the OJ Simpson case as well, there 447 00:27:37,460 --> 00:27:40,730 S3: was quite a lot of issues around the crime scene 448 00:27:40,730 --> 00:27:45,080 S3: investigation and how that was investigated. And once you make 449 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,050 S3: those mistakes, the genie's out of the bottle. You can't 450 00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:50,960 S3: put it back in. And it's the same in the 451 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:56,659 S3: Engelhardt case where. That initial crime scene was questionable in 452 00:27:56,660 --> 00:28:01,250 S3: that investigation. And while it may be that Fred was 453 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,149 S3: guilty of that particular crime because they didn't follow the 454 00:28:05,150 --> 00:28:08,090 S3: right procedures, didn't do as they should have, they wanted 455 00:28:08,090 --> 00:28:12,020 S3: a particular outcome or a focused decision. They've messed up 456 00:28:12,020 --> 00:28:15,170 S3: their chance to now go back and give justice. 457 00:28:15,650 --> 00:28:18,590 S2: He was acquitted. So he can never be tried again. 458 00:28:18,619 --> 00:28:22,250 S3: Yes, absolutely. And to this day, it's still it's an 459 00:28:22,250 --> 00:28:24,080 S3: unsolved case. And there's no. 460 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,590 S2: But it's closed. Yeah, it's a closed case, but it's unsolved. 461 00:28:27,619 --> 00:28:30,320 S2: I find that really sad for the family. And apparently 462 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,990 S2: the family did try to sue Fred VanDerveer in civil court, 463 00:28:36,290 --> 00:28:40,160 S2: but it just became too traumatic for the parents. 464 00:28:40,940 --> 00:28:44,450 S3: Yeah, it's absolutely heartbreaking that all of the other evidence 465 00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:47,600 S3: that you've mentioned indicate that it was Fred. There's no 466 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,200 S3: other suspects in this particular case, but it was just 467 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,750 S3: that one fingerprint and how it was used in this 468 00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:58,130 S3: particular case that created enough doubt in the judge and 469 00:28:58,130 --> 00:29:01,280 S3: jury's mind that the only outcome that they could proceed 470 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,250 S3: with through the legal system was an acquittal, because of 471 00:29:04,250 --> 00:29:07,190 S3: the misuse of that particular piece of evidence. 472 00:29:07,580 --> 00:29:10,850 S2: And the defense's job is really to just raise reasonable doubt, 473 00:29:11,270 --> 00:29:16,100 S2: but the prosecutor has to prove beyond reasonable doubt. So 474 00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:19,040 S2: if you muck up any of the forensic science, you've 475 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:24,500 S2: left this gaping hole in the entire case, and intelligent 476 00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:29,330 S2: defense and objective scientists hopefully will be able to raise 477 00:29:29,330 --> 00:29:32,270 S2: those questions that should have been asked initially. 478 00:29:32,300 --> 00:29:36,800 S3: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the importance of science 479 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,000 S3: in in the courtroom and being objective, because if we 480 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,020 S3: flip it in an instance where an individual may have 481 00:29:45,020 --> 00:29:49,040 S3: been innocent and that particular item is misused and we 482 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,459 S3: don't cast a reasonable doubt, that item remains, then we 483 00:29:52,460 --> 00:29:57,170 S3: have instances where people are imprisoned unjustly. Exactly. 484 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,650 S2: In terms of other ways of getting fingerprints in a 485 00:30:00,650 --> 00:30:04,490 S2: crime scene like that. Having lots. Could there have been 486 00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:07,969 S2: any fingerprints on her? On her body, on her throat. 487 00:30:07,970 --> 00:30:09,800 S2: Neck where she was assaulted? 488 00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:13,310 S3: Um, so it is possible the challenge for us, from 489 00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:17,390 S3: a forensic science perspective, is there is no reliable method 490 00:30:17,390 --> 00:30:21,260 S3: for us to recover fingerprints on the surface of other 491 00:30:21,260 --> 00:30:25,370 S3: people's skin. And the reason is, is that the components 492 00:30:25,370 --> 00:30:29,030 S3: that we target, whether it's just general moisture with powdering 493 00:30:29,030 --> 00:30:32,180 S3: or whether it's the sweats and oils from our skin, 494 00:30:32,180 --> 00:30:34,700 S3: where they're going to be present on other people's skin 495 00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:38,719 S3: as well. And so when we try to use those 496 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,530 S3: same methods and techniques, we we are going to be 497 00:30:42,530 --> 00:30:46,970 S3: more developing that individual's sweats and oils as opposed to 498 00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:50,510 S3: the person who might have touched them that have had 499 00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:53,510 S3: done it. So that's always a challenge for us. And 500 00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:56,090 S3: that recovering fingerprints from the surface of someone's skin is 501 00:30:56,090 --> 00:30:58,550 S3: something that we're just not able to do at this 502 00:30:58,550 --> 00:31:00,050 S3: point in time, reliably. 503 00:31:00,050 --> 00:31:02,660 S2: Yeah, exactly. And even a fingerprint on blood is more 504 00:31:02,660 --> 00:31:06,560 S2: likely to be smeared, or certainly not a definite definitive. 505 00:31:06,890 --> 00:31:10,100 S2: There's my fingerprint. I've put it down and lifted it up. 506 00:31:10,130 --> 00:31:13,130 S3: Yeah. And even a fingerprint in blood is an example. 507 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,500 S3: There are different types of ways that that can happen. 508 00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:18,320 S3: You can have a fingerprint in blood where there's a 509 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,830 S3: blood puddle on a surface and you put it in there, 510 00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:24,710 S3: depending on whether it's dry, whether it's still wet, that 511 00:31:25,010 --> 00:31:28,160 S3: fingerprint might be removed. We can have it where we 512 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,980 S3: deposit something and we deposit our finger first and then 513 00:31:30,980 --> 00:31:36,140 S3: blood goes through that. So that's a fingerprint under blood. 514 00:31:36,290 --> 00:31:41,780 S3: And then there's fingerprints in blood where we touch a surface. 515 00:31:41,780 --> 00:31:43,910 S3: Get some blood transfer to the surface of our fingers 516 00:31:43,910 --> 00:31:46,460 S3: and then touch another surface on top. 517 00:31:46,670 --> 00:31:48,560 S2: That would be the most ideal I think. 518 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:48,860 S4: Yeah. 519 00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:52,310 S3: And because and then they become visible prints for us 520 00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:54,470 S3: because we would be able to see them with the 521 00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:58,100 S3: naked eye. We're not we don't need to use methods 522 00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:01,910 S3: like powdering to see them. If we want to enhance contrast, 523 00:32:01,910 --> 00:32:06,979 S3: we might use special blood enhancing reagents that will again 524 00:32:06,980 --> 00:32:11,090 S3: give us a better chance at recovering an identifiable finger mark. 525 00:32:11,180 --> 00:32:13,430 S3: But we should be able to see them. And again, 526 00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:16,459 S3: that helps us understand the events that led up to 527 00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:20,420 S3: the crime, because in that particular instance, somebody has touched blood. 528 00:32:20,420 --> 00:32:22,430 S3: There has to have been blood there for them to. 529 00:32:22,430 --> 00:32:23,240 S4: Touch and. 530 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:24,740 S2: Identify whose blood that was. 531 00:32:24,740 --> 00:32:27,260 S3: Yep. And we can do, you know, DNA or blood 532 00:32:27,260 --> 00:32:30,140 S3: screening to find out whose blood that was. Is it 533 00:32:30,140 --> 00:32:32,720 S3: the victim? Is it the suspect? And then we can 534 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,190 S3: use those traces to recreate or understand the events that occurred. 535 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,140 S2: So what is new in fingerprint analysis? Do you see 536 00:32:42,140 --> 00:32:44,570 S2: it as something that's stagnant, or is there something that 537 00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:49,730 S2: is evolving scientifically to improve, being able to detect and 538 00:32:49,730 --> 00:32:53,510 S2: lift and collect evidence that's of value? 539 00:32:53,660 --> 00:32:56,870 S3: Um, so while we might think that it's an old 540 00:32:56,870 --> 00:33:00,320 S3: school technique, it has been around since the early 1900s. 541 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,469 S3: In fact, in New South Wales in 1904, we were 542 00:33:03,470 --> 00:33:07,700 S3: one of the first police jurisdictions to use fingerprint identification. 543 00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:11,150 S3: So it's very well established how a lot of our 544 00:33:11,150 --> 00:33:14,840 S3: methods have come about is through other fields of science 545 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,810 S3: or other avenues. So in fact, one of the methods 546 00:33:17,810 --> 00:33:21,500 S3: that we use. It's called physical developer actually came out 547 00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:25,670 S3: of photographic development. So when the police were developing their 548 00:33:25,670 --> 00:33:28,790 S3: crime scene photos in the dark rooms, they were finding 549 00:33:28,790 --> 00:33:32,270 S3: that if they handled certain pieces of paper that they 550 00:33:32,270 --> 00:33:35,180 S3: were using to develop the photos, they would also recover 551 00:33:35,180 --> 00:33:38,480 S3: their fingerprints as well as develop the photo. So a 552 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,280 S3: lot of our methods have come out of, you know, either. Biology, 553 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:46,650 S3: chemistry or other areas. And because we we found that 554 00:33:46,650 --> 00:33:50,430 S3: they work we we will use them. So fingerprint research 555 00:33:50,430 --> 00:33:54,240 S3: now it's moved into two main areas. So the first 556 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,750 S3: area is around identification. So this is where we will 557 00:33:57,750 --> 00:34:03,500 S3: have trained fingerprint experts trying to understand. How they identify 558 00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:07,100 S3: an individual, what's their thought processes, as well as the 559 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:10,640 S3: algorithms that we use. When we recover a print we 560 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,489 S3: might upload it to, we would call it an alias. 561 00:34:13,489 --> 00:34:18,020 S3: So the Australian Fingerprint Identification System, to work on better algorithms, 562 00:34:18,020 --> 00:34:20,060 S3: to be more confident with. 563 00:34:20,150 --> 00:34:23,779 S2: How many points of identification, things like how many similarities. 564 00:34:23,780 --> 00:34:24,140 S4: Yeah. 565 00:34:24,140 --> 00:34:27,890 S3: Yeah. So and also what are the elements that factor 566 00:34:27,890 --> 00:34:30,740 S3: into an expert making a decision as to whether it's 567 00:34:30,739 --> 00:34:35,149 S3: identifiable or not? So you mentioned the number of points 568 00:34:35,150 --> 00:34:37,820 S3: in a fingerprint. A lot of countries have moved away 569 00:34:37,820 --> 00:34:40,940 S3: from trying to reach. So in some jurisdictions they will 570 00:34:40,940 --> 00:34:45,290 S3: say if there are 12 points of identification then that's 571 00:34:45,290 --> 00:34:48,200 S3: a they're fairly confident that that is a match. But 572 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:53,629 S3: now most countries in the world try to contextualize that information. 573 00:34:53,630 --> 00:34:57,560 S3: Or just because we if you try to get 12, 574 00:34:57,590 --> 00:35:00,080 S3: you're trying to assure an outcome when that outcome may 575 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,460 S3: not be. Accurate or appropriate given the evidence that you. 576 00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:05,359 S4: Have on. 577 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,430 S2: CSI. We've always seen them superimpose. 578 00:35:07,820 --> 00:35:10,730 S4: That classic one. Yeah. And then the. 579 00:35:10,730 --> 00:35:14,510 S3: Green matches up and yeah, it looks great for TV, 580 00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:19,100 S3: but not necessarily a good outcome for us. So the 581 00:35:19,100 --> 00:35:22,100 S3: identification side is one side and then the other side 582 00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:25,910 S3: is around detection. So ultimately the goal when we are 583 00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:30,259 S3: trying to develop or detect a fingerprint, we are trying 584 00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:33,830 S3: to get the best possible image or the best possible 585 00:35:33,830 --> 00:35:37,250 S3: developed mark, because the better the mark that we have developed, 586 00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:39,890 S3: the more likely that we'll be able to more accurately 587 00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:45,379 S3: and confidently identify a person based on their fingerprint. And 588 00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:48,200 S3: so the way that we do that is through new 589 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,319 S3: techniques or new methods. Um, so this might be using 590 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,030 S3: new technologies or new types of fluorescent powders, uh, new 591 00:35:56,030 --> 00:35:59,810 S3: types of chemical detection methods. But then the other side 592 00:35:59,810 --> 00:36:05,089 S3: is trying to understand and the fingerprint chemistry itself, so 593 00:36:05,090 --> 00:36:06,560 S3: that when we do want to come up with a 594 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,710 S3: new method, what are we actually targeting? How does it 595 00:36:09,710 --> 00:36:14,420 S3: work and how can we inform better practice moving forward 596 00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:16,670 S3: by understanding what we're trying to detect. 597 00:36:17,210 --> 00:36:19,700 S2: And then to use that you need to do multiple 598 00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:24,320 S2: studies have peer review. It's not just a eureka moment. 599 00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:29,030 S3: No. Exactly. Uh, quite a while ago, forensic science was 600 00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:33,500 S3: brought into put under the spotlight through two reports from 601 00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:36,290 S3: the US. So there was the National Academy of Sciences 602 00:36:36,290 --> 00:36:41,990 S3: report in 2009 and the Pcast report in 2016. And 603 00:36:41,989 --> 00:36:45,680 S3: in both of those reports, it really highlighted that in 604 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,799 S3: a number of forensic disciplines, there was a lack of 605 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,489 S3: scientific underpinning to the work that was going on, and 606 00:36:52,489 --> 00:36:56,480 S3: that particular types of evidence should not be used in 607 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,860 S3: a court of law without fundamental studies to underpin the 608 00:37:00,860 --> 00:37:03,710 S3: decisions or the outcomes that they were making. So an 609 00:37:03,710 --> 00:37:07,669 S3: area was in bite marks, for instance, so that one, 610 00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:10,460 S3: as a forensic discipline, has been told to go back 611 00:37:10,460 --> 00:37:15,050 S3: to the lab and confirm what you've said is gospel 612 00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:19,279 S3: is is appropriate and with some scientific studies. And so 613 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,549 S3: fingerprints didn't have the same degree of spotlight on them. 614 00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:26,270 S3: But it's always important that we are able to stand 615 00:37:26,270 --> 00:37:29,030 S3: by what we do, how we do it, and why 616 00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:31,520 S3: we do it. And the way that we do that 617 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,960 S3: is through scientific research and peer reviewed studies. 618 00:37:37,070 --> 00:37:40,100 S2: In terms of fingerprints, it's the biggest thing that people 619 00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:42,140 S2: talk about. No one has the same two fingerprints. And 620 00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:45,410 S2: I'm always asked by people, but what about identical twins? 621 00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:48,020 S2: Would you like to finally address that one, please? 622 00:37:48,020 --> 00:37:48,500 S4: I would. 623 00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:53,089 S3: Love to. Um, so identical twins, when we talk about fingerprints, 624 00:37:53,090 --> 00:37:56,630 S3: there are two levels of how we would identify somebody. 625 00:37:56,810 --> 00:37:59,390 S3: The first is what we would call the general pattern. 626 00:37:59,390 --> 00:38:01,580 S3: So this is the pattern that we can see on 627 00:38:01,580 --> 00:38:05,720 S3: the surface of our fingers. And there are three main 628 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,259 S3: types of these general patterns. There are what we call whorls. 629 00:38:09,260 --> 00:38:12,680 S3: And these look like little circles with larger circles coming 630 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,890 S3: from the center. There are loops where we have the 631 00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:19,009 S3: fingerprint ridges coming from one side of our finger. They 632 00:38:19,010 --> 00:38:22,130 S3: get close to the center, do a U-turn and come 633 00:38:22,130 --> 00:38:25,070 S3: out the same side. And then we have arches, and 634 00:38:25,070 --> 00:38:27,140 S3: this is where the ridges will start. On one side 635 00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:29,480 S3: of our finger, hit a little bit of a speed 636 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,110 S3: bump and continue out to the opposite side of the finger. 637 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,880 S3: Now these general fingerprint patterns are passed down by genetics, 638 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,010 S3: so identical twins may have the same type of pattern 639 00:38:43,010 --> 00:38:45,860 S3: on the same fingers as each other. It's the same 640 00:38:45,860 --> 00:38:48,080 S3: as if your brother and sister. You might also find 641 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,820 S3: if you look at your your fingers, you might have 642 00:38:49,820 --> 00:38:51,860 S3: the same. I've got a loop on my thumb, you've 643 00:38:51,860 --> 00:38:54,350 S3: got a loop on your thumb. And so that's a 644 00:38:54,350 --> 00:38:58,130 S3: way that we can classify people or group people into 645 00:38:58,130 --> 00:39:02,480 S3: certain areas and exclude people from investigations. If we recover 646 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,810 S3: a well at a crime scene and our particular suspect 647 00:39:05,810 --> 00:39:09,500 S3: only has loops, well, we can exclude them from further 648 00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:13,850 S3: investigation without going through a full identification process. But what 649 00:39:13,850 --> 00:39:16,580 S3: we use to identify people is that while that general 650 00:39:16,580 --> 00:39:21,980 S3: pattern is one of those three categories, there's actually smaller 651 00:39:21,980 --> 00:39:25,850 S3: minute details that make up this fingerprint pattern. And we 652 00:39:25,850 --> 00:39:31,730 S3: call it fingerprint minutiae. Now, why these are very individualizing 653 00:39:31,730 --> 00:39:34,610 S3: or why we can say with some degree of confidence 654 00:39:34,610 --> 00:39:37,460 S3: that we can identify a person with them, is that 655 00:39:37,460 --> 00:39:41,629 S3: they're actually form randomly. So at the ninth to 10th 656 00:39:41,630 --> 00:39:45,620 S3: week of gestation, as our fingers begin to form at 657 00:39:45,620 --> 00:39:49,010 S3: that point, they're not fingers, they're the shoulder pads. And. 658 00:39:49,739 --> 00:39:53,310 S3: When I begin to form, we will be moving around 659 00:39:53,310 --> 00:39:56,340 S3: in the womb and there will be some random interactions 660 00:39:56,340 --> 00:39:59,009 S3: with the inside of the womb with ourselves. Or if 661 00:39:59,010 --> 00:40:01,740 S3: you have an identical twin, your twin next to you. 662 00:40:01,830 --> 00:40:06,540 S3: And it's the random pressures as your fingers are developing 663 00:40:06,540 --> 00:40:10,830 S3: that create these imperfections on the surface of the volar pads. 664 00:40:10,830 --> 00:40:12,450 S2: So it's not blood supply. 665 00:40:12,780 --> 00:40:15,510 S3: Yeah, no, it's to do with how they move around. 666 00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:19,680 S3: And and it's these random imperfections that create these minutia 667 00:40:19,770 --> 00:40:23,190 S3: that make people, for want of a better term, unique. 668 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,009 S3: Even if we cut ourselves or if we, you know, 669 00:40:26,010 --> 00:40:28,950 S3: fall over and scrape our hands, the fingerprint ridges will 670 00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:32,010 S3: grow back in their original, original patterns if we want 671 00:40:32,010 --> 00:40:35,340 S3: to cause permanent damage. We've got to cut several millimeters 672 00:40:35,340 --> 00:40:36,540 S3: deep into the skin. 673 00:40:36,540 --> 00:40:39,630 S2: That's incredible. So in terms of gestation, a premature bulb 674 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:41,880 S2: may not have fingerprints evident. 675 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,979 S3: It's very early on. So around that ninth to 10th 676 00:40:43,980 --> 00:40:46,410 S3: week of gestation is when that's starting to form. Yeah. 677 00:40:46,410 --> 00:40:49,469 S3: And so the information will be there by about week 12. 678 00:40:49,469 --> 00:40:51,780 S3: And then it stays that way. And so your fingerprints 679 00:40:51,780 --> 00:40:54,690 S3: will stay the same from when you are born all 680 00:40:54,690 --> 00:40:58,050 S3: the way until you pass away. They'll get bigger because 681 00:40:58,050 --> 00:41:00,420 S3: your fingers will grow over time, but the pattern will 682 00:41:00,420 --> 00:41:01,469 S3: remain the same. 683 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,820 S2: So if you have familial patterns, we've heard about familial 684 00:41:05,820 --> 00:41:10,200 S2: DNA linking people to crime scenes. Is it possible in 685 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,140 S2: the future that you could actually link familial fingerprints? 686 00:41:13,350 --> 00:41:16,590 S3: Uh, so that's not necessarily something that you could do. 687 00:41:16,590 --> 00:41:20,400 S3: So while the genetic information will give you that general pattern, 688 00:41:20,730 --> 00:41:23,969 S3: as I mentioned, there's only at most eight of these 689 00:41:23,969 --> 00:41:27,870 S3: general patterns. And so it's not enough information to say 690 00:41:27,870 --> 00:41:31,050 S3: with confidence that we could identify a particular person or 691 00:41:31,050 --> 00:41:35,580 S3: even group them into a familial sort of similarities. Yeah, 692 00:41:35,580 --> 00:41:38,520 S3: there are similarities, but yeah, there just isn't enough information 693 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,210 S3: at that general level to say with a degree of 694 00:41:42,210 --> 00:41:46,140 S3: confidence that that person belongs to that family, because you 695 00:41:46,140 --> 00:41:48,330 S3: can go down the street and there'll be people with 696 00:41:48,330 --> 00:41:51,330 S3: loops and whorls all on the same fingers that you have, 697 00:41:51,330 --> 00:41:52,859 S3: and they won't be related to you. 698 00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:58,380 S2: Does hand sanitizer remove fingerprints of objects? 699 00:41:58,590 --> 00:42:01,020 S3: Uh, yeah, that's a very interesting question. And in a 700 00:42:01,020 --> 00:42:03,750 S3: post-Covid world, it was part of our daily life, always 701 00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:04,620 S3: hand sanitizing. 702 00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:06,960 S4: And it was it is for some of us. Exactly. 703 00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:11,340 S3: Uh, it's a question that we had actually before the pandemic. Uh, 704 00:42:11,340 --> 00:42:15,390 S3: and so we conducted an experiment to see whether different 705 00:42:15,390 --> 00:42:21,270 S3: types of hand sanitizers would impact the developed fingerprint, because 706 00:42:21,420 --> 00:42:25,680 S3: what we're targeting is often chemical residues. And depending if 707 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,430 S3: we have a alcoholic non-alcoholic, the techniques we use can 708 00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:33,780 S3: be quite sensitive. So introducing something else might dilute or 709 00:42:33,780 --> 00:42:38,160 S3: potentially damage the fingerprint. So through our work, we took 710 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:43,950 S3: some non-alcoholic hand sanitizers and some alcoholic hand sanitizers and 711 00:42:43,950 --> 00:42:48,420 S3: compared uh, we got them to apply the hand sanitizer 712 00:42:48,570 --> 00:42:53,040 S3: deposit fingerprints after a certain period of time and then 713 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,020 S3: develop them with a range of techniques. And what we 714 00:42:55,020 --> 00:43:00,600 S3: actually found was that hand sanitizer has no negative impact 715 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,729 S3: on developed fingerprints. And in fact, non-alcoholic hand sanitizers will 716 00:43:05,730 --> 00:43:09,930 S3: actually improve the development for a number of the techniques 717 00:43:09,930 --> 00:43:11,940 S3: that we have, and it will actually make it easier 718 00:43:11,940 --> 00:43:15,390 S3: for us to recover fingerprints on certain surfaces. 719 00:43:16,730 --> 00:43:18,500 S2: Well. That solved. Yeah. 720 00:43:19,370 --> 00:43:20,330 S3: Myth. Busted. 721 00:43:20,420 --> 00:43:24,170 S2: Myth. Busted. Awesome. Thank you, Scott, so much for joining 722 00:43:24,170 --> 00:43:28,700 S2: us today. This has been so fascinating. And fingerprints, everybody 723 00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:30,320 S2: seems they know everything about them because I've seen a 724 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,529 S2: crime show once and they know they go back to 725 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,270 S2: another century. But I just think applying them and learning 726 00:43:38,270 --> 00:43:42,680 S2: how you further researching and the science is evolving is fascinating. 727 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,690 S2: So thank you so much for joining us today. 728 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,580 S3: My pleasure. It was great to be here. Thank you. 729 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,230 S2: Crime Insider's Forensics is a listener. Original production. It's hosted 730 00:43:59,230 --> 00:44:02,530 S2: by me, Catherine Fox, and is produced by Ed Gordon. 731 00:44:02,980 --> 00:44:05,650 S2: Sound Design and imaging is by Link Kelly.