1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: The only way to bag a classy lady is to 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: give her two tickets to the gun show. 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 2: Monday Gun Day with the guy. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: Swatch up with the guns. 5 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 3: They'll get you. 6 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: Guy, stop calling your arms gun. 7 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 3: Shown his idel Jasonhammer right over there with a very 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 3: special guest on the hot line. 9 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: He is a to a attorney, a firearms instructor, He's 10 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: helped make laws in the state of Indiana, and of 11 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: moving to bet he probably stayed up late watching football 12 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: last night. Thank Guy, Relfer joins us. Guy, how are you? 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: I am great and thanks as always our sponsor for 14 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: Monday Gundas Premiere Arms in Brownsburg, the largest selection of 15 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: New Houston historic firearms in the Midwest, and Paige Jewlers 16 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 2: located in the farmhouse right out front. Check him out 17 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: at thirty seven and fifty four South Green Street in 18 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 2: Brownsburg or Premiere Arms dot com. 19 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: So, Guy, as a former college football player here in 20 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: the state of NA, what did you think of the 21 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: game last night? 22 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: You know, it just still seems surreal to me, And 23 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 2: I know that's how awful lot of Indiana fans steal 24 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: all across the state, across the country, with the largest 25 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: alumni group in anywhere in the country. But it just 26 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: seems surreal to me. I mean the fact that you know, 27 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 2: you're watching those announcers saying, hey, we're here for the 28 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: National Championship between the Indiana Hoosias and Miami Hurricanes, and 29 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: you're just still I mean, we've watched it happen all season, right, 30 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: but it's still you just shake your head and go, 31 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 2: what what am I watching again? I mean, it's just 32 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: it is just surreal. But then to watch them pull 33 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: it out, which you know they were favored to do, 34 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 2: but still a lot of us and a lot of 35 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: the you know, the guest pickers out there and so 36 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: called experts talking heads, seemed like the majority we're still 37 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: picking Miami. Nobody really wanted to believe in the Hoosiers, 38 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: but hey, they pulled it off, and it was a 39 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 2: great game and got got a little bit too interesting 40 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: there in the fourth quarter, but man, it was fun. 41 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: It really reminds me the feeling I have. I'm not 42 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: so sure it's not even a little better than when 43 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: the Colts won the Super Bowl in Super Bowl forty one, 44 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: just because the Cults have been good for a long 45 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: time and is almost like they were underperforming not having 46 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: achieved more Super Bowls both up to and including that 47 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: point and after. But for just this team to accomplish 48 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: this in only two years, I don't know. I'm not 49 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 2: sure I'll see something as special as this in the 50 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: sports world in my lifetime anyway. 51 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: All right, So guy, let's pivot to some more serious topics, 52 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: if you will. And the church storming of these quote 53 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: unquote protesters mob mob in Minnesota I thought was absolutely sickening. 54 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: But one of the things we like to do when 55 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: we have you on the phone or in studio is 56 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: apply that to what would happened here in Indiana. So guy, 57 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: let's say that I'm with my family at church service 58 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: on Sunday and I hear the back door kick open, 59 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: and a bunch of lunatics run in and they start 60 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: cheering and chanting and booing and calling us every name 61 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: under the sun, yelling at my kids, yelling at my kids, 62 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: and I don't know what's going on here, Like, what 63 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: would you advise we do, like in order to protect ourselves. 64 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting is, you know, I spoke at a 65 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: church security conference just on Saturday, and so it was 66 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: the next day that all this happened. And believe it 67 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: or not, I got a question from the audience in 68 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: that conference of exactly this. He goes, what if we 69 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: get protesters or just you know, a big group of 70 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: people that come in, they're screaming and they're yelling, or 71 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: even if they're vandalizing, you know, part of the sanctuary 72 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: or other parts of the church. And the answer isn't 73 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: very satisfying, because in order to put your hands on somebody, 74 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: you know, then physically restrain them in some way or 75 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: hurt them in some way, you really have to be 76 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: protecting yourself or another in this in person from the 77 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: unlawful use of harm against you or another person. And 78 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: these people being lunatics and an unruly mob, that doesn't 79 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: really justify, it doesn't justify legally here in Indiana, actually 80 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 2: using physical force against them. So unfortunately, we're relegated to 81 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: a situation where you'd have to be good witnesses, you know, 82 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: get it on video, get faces recorded, make sure nine 83 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: one one's called as soon as possible, be good witnesses 84 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: for the police. But unfortunately, as satisfying as it might 85 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: be to just start kicking some butts, it wouldn't be 86 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: legally justified in this instance. 87 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's do a hypothetical here, and I'm willing 88 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: to bet there are a lot of people in our 89 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: audience that are thinking this. Maybe they've been afraid to ask. 90 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: Same situation. Somebody's in a church service, they hear the 91 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: door kick open, and lunatics start coming in, screaming and yelling. 92 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: Somebody fires a shot because they've seen news coverage of 93 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: churches being soft targets in the past. Yes, somebody has 94 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: got the legal firearm on them. The minute that church 95 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: door kicks in and somebody starts yelling profanities or something, 96 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: they fire a shot at that person. 97 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 2: What then, Well, in this case, it all comes down 98 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: to a reasonable belief. In other words, you can use 99 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: deadly force if you have a reasonable belief that that 100 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to you 101 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: or another person. So the door kicks in, you say, aha, 102 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: this is another church attack, a mass shooting in a church. 103 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: And so I responded to stop that mass shooting because 104 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 2: I had a reasonable belief that I was preventing serious 105 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: bodily injury to all of my fellow worshippers with me 106 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: in that church. You can be wrong let's say that 107 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: the police respond, you kill or wound someone. Police respond, 108 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: they don't find any weapons among any of those people, 109 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: And then it comes down to you were wrong. There 110 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 2: wasn't a threat of serious body injury. They them in 111 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: coming in to be an unruly mob in the protest. 112 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: But were you reasonable in that belief even though you 113 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: were wrong? In other words, did somebody have something else 114 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: in their hand, like a phone or anything else that 115 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: could have been confused with a firearm. Is there some 116 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: basis for you to believe they were coming in to 117 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: do something more nefarious than just protests. If you can 118 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: establish that reasonable belief, then you may be justified. And 119 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: keep in mind, in Indiana, the prosecution has to disprove 120 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: self defense beyond a reasonable doubt. You don't have to 121 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: prove it. So in this case, it come down to 122 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: whether you had that reasonable belief. But man, if there 123 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: were no weapons found, and if somebody just kicks the 124 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: door open and you start shooting shots, that would be 125 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: a tough case to defend. It's possible to defend it, 126 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: but all comes down to that reasonable belief. 127 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 3: I'm ready to go to jail. I'll be honest with you. 128 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: If some beatingn it like that bearded psycho starts screaming 129 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 3: at my kids and intimidating them and making them cry. 130 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 3: What would be the punishment here, indian If I just 131 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 3: throwt punch the guy seriously, like these cowards would never 132 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 3: do that in a mosque. I'd like to see you 133 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: do it in a church like the one I go to. 134 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 3: It's a problem. And if somebody gets in my kid's 135 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 3: face and starts screaming at them, I don't know what 136 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 3: they're liable to do next. They're getting a throat punch, Lindsey, 137 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 3: get the bail money ready? What is the penalty? What 138 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 3: you know, I'm assuming if it happens in Indianapolis, I'm 139 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 3: automatically going to go to jail and Meters is going 140 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 3: to throw the book at me. What is What are 141 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: the possible consequences of just you know, a basic simple 142 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 3: punch to the face to get my kids safe and 143 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 3: out of harm's way. 144 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, battery without any injury is just is just 145 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: a be misdemeanor. So that's you know, that'd be like 146 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: one hundred eighty days of probation. You can theoretically do 147 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: jail time, but if no criminal history you wouldn't do 148 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: any jail time, so be misdemeaning. Now battery with injury. 149 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: If the cop says to the quote unquote victim, did 150 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: it hurt when Nigel you know shoved you in the face? 151 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it hurt. Now you got an a misdemeanor 152 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,559 Speaker 2: because it's battery with injury. Let's say you go ahead 153 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: and and put the you know, put a nice punch 154 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: into this guy's face and knocked a couple of teeth out. Well, 155 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: now you've got battery with serious bodily injury. Potentially, Now 156 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: you're getting up into the felonies where you could do 157 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: some gaale time and you know, lose your two A 158 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: rights and have the other ramifications associated with a felony. 159 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 3: I'd like to think cooler heads would prevail on my part. 160 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 3: I just don't know. I've never been in that situation. 161 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would bail you out if you did that, 162 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: like you, I've got bail money set aside for myself. 163 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: But if you throw punch that hippie, I'm in. I 164 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 1: got you my friend. 165 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: Hey. No, and when and when and when people are 166 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: screaming and yelling and making your kid cry? I mean, 167 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: how unreasonable are you in thinking they're about to go 168 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: to the next step that are physically injuring people. And 169 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: if so, if you again have that reasonable belief that 170 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 2: you're preventing unlawful injury uh to someone else or physical harm. 171 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: Now okay, now punches are justified, but that comes down 172 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: to that reasonable belief, just like the he's a deadly force, 173 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 2: reasonable for us to prevent some other level of harm 174 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: below serious bodily injury. Just comes down to that reasonable belief. 175 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: And you know, a group of people come in, they're threatening, 176 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: they're loud, your kids crying. I got to believe that 177 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: a lot of jurors would have would have a pretty 178 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: easy time finding that you were justified and knocking a 179 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: tooth out or two. 180 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: Guy, we got about one minute left here. I want 181 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: to get your opinion on this Supreme Court nine to 182 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: zero ruling in regards to police and how they handle 183 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: red flag cases. 184 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: Yes, his case versus Montana, And it's interesting it wasn't 185 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: necessarily a red flagcase that in Montana. It was just a 186 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: welfare check. A girlfriend ex girlfriend called police and said, 187 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: I think my ex boyfriend suicidal. He has guns, he's 188 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 2: in his house. Police go to his house without a warrant. 189 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: They ended up going into his house without a warrant. 190 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: They see him in a closet, they think he may 191 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: have a gun, They shoot him, wound him, kill him, 192 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: and later on he's arrested for battery on an officer. 193 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: And the question came down to whether the entry into 194 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: the house was constitutional because they did not have a warrant, 195 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 2: And in a nine to nothing decision, and this surprised me, 196 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: this was nine to nothing, the Supreme Court said, well, 197 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: to do a welfare check if you have simply an 198 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: objectively reasonable basis to believe. That's the standard that they 199 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: threw out there. If police have an objectively reasonable basis 200 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: to believe that you're either in need of assistance immediately 201 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: or that you're about to hurt yourself and commit suicide 202 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: in this case, then they can go into your house 203 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: without a warrant. And a lot of us looked at 204 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: that and said, WHOA. The Fourth Amendment just took a 205 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: hit here, because that's a fair for instance, that's not 206 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: probable cause it's a lower standard, objectively reasonable basis to 207 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: believe that you're in danger or in need of a 208 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 2: media assistance. Now suddenly they can kick my door in 209 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 2: without a warrant. That makes a lot of us nervous, 210 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 2: but that's exactly what the Supreme Court ruled. 211 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: Guy. If somebody wants to reach out to you, if 212 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: they've got a question, if they want to hire you, 213 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: how can they find you? 214 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 2: Boy? The website is relfredlaw dot com. There's a way 215 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: to contact us. The phone numbers right there. It's relfred 216 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: law dot com. 217 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: Guy, you're the best. My friends, Safe travels. We'll do 218 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: it again next week. 219 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: Thanks guys. 220 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: It's the Hammer and Nigel Show.