1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: So the big story today, of course, is the return 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: of the hostages twenty alive back in Israel, back with 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: their families, back with their loved ones, the remains of 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 1: twenty eight. Still we wonder whether all the remains are 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: going to get back. And some people have brought up 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: a very fascinating point regarding the fact that there are 7 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: no female hostages alive, and is there something to that 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: that we really need to focus on. 9 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 2: And before we. 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,279 Speaker 1: Got to this day, there was a madness that took 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: place last week regarding the bigot canda O And then 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: for the record, I said bigot, I meant bigot. I'm 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: not apologizing for it in any way, shape or form. 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: Tony Katz, Tony Katz today, good to be with you. 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: Josh Hammer joins me right now. Josh Hammer is the 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: senior editor at large at Newsweek, and he is the 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: home of the Josh Hammer Show. He's also the author 18 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: of Israel and Civilization, The Fate of the Jewish Nation, 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: and the Destiny of the West. I bring up candae 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: O and specifically in your article, because she is coming 21 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: at you engaging this idea of complicity in the assassination 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 1: of Charlie Kirk. 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 2: I want to get to that, but I'm going to 24 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: start where I start with today. 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: These hostages are home three hundred, I'm sorry, seven hundred, 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: and was it sixty seven days? 27 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 2: Seven and thirty seven days. 28 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: In captivity, in the conditions, in conditions you could not 29 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: dream of in terms of their hardness. Talk to me 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: about the Israeli take on this day and how it 31 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: is that you think foreign policy under Trump will be 32 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: looked at going forward. 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: Well, Tony, great to join you. As always. Look, I 34 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 3: think that these. 35 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 4: Really perspective and the American perspective, at least my perspective, 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 4: are slightly different when it comes to this, but generally speaking, 37 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 4: certainly very similar. I say all that time because as 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 4: an American citizen, my number one, my number one wished 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 4: goal of the war in Gaza has been all along 40 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 4: the complete obliteration of Hamas. 41 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 3: I care about the hostages. 42 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 4: I don't want to sound callous, but to me, as 43 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 4: an American thinking about American geopolitics and strategy, Hamas and 44 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 4: getting rid of them has always been the number one objective. 45 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 4: This is, after all, a US foreign terrorist organization. I 46 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 4: think is really perspective is slightly more more nuanced because 47 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 4: at the beginning there were a dozens of American hostages. 48 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 4: There were hostages from various other countries as well, European 49 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 4: countries and so forth. But the overlaly majority of the 50 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 4: hostages are and up until today, were Israeli citizens. So 51 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 4: the emotional calculus I think for the Israelitis is slightly different. 52 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 4: And when I was there Tony most recently, I was 53 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 4: just there in June. We were actually there right when 54 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 4: the war with the Ron started. That's whole nother story 55 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 4: for a different day. 56 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 3: Perhaps. 57 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 4: Let me tell you that the posters of the hostages 58 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 4: are ubiquitous. 59 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 3: They are all throughout the country. 60 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 4: They are on the highway overpasses, they are on the 61 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 4: lamp posts, they are truly, truly everywhere. This is a 62 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 4: country that has been has been yearning, that's been thirsting 63 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 4: to get its hostages back, and I think from that perspective, 64 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 4: this is a pretty much unambiguously good day in Israel. Now, 65 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 4: there is a slight caveat or two. The biggest caveat 66 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 4: is that if you look at some of the horrific 67 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 4: individuals that Israel is giving up at the price have 68 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 4: getten these hostages back, These are some really really bad people, 69 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 4: and this is how this always goes, Tony. I mean, 70 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 4: you and I have been around the block a little bit. 71 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 4: We've seen these deals over the years, going back at 72 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 4: least as far as the Geeludgelite Prisoners swap back in 73 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 4: twenty eleven, whereas we'll exchange over one thousand died in 74 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 4: the Woldgie hobbies just to get one captured soldier back. 75 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 4: This ratio is slightly less insane, but there are still 76 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 4: a lot of really bad Jihadis who are being released 77 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 4: in this deal. And in the twenty eleven swap, it 78 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 4: was actually ya Ya Sinwar was one of the Gigihatis 79 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 4: who was released into Gaza. Ya Ya Sinwar, of course, 80 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,839 Speaker 4: infamously ends up becoming the masterminds of October seven, twenty 81 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 4: twenty three. 82 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: So that's that's the question that I think I and. 83 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 4: Many others have is God forbid, is the next ya 84 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 4: Ya Sinwar, the next Ismel Hania is that person in 85 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 4: this deal? It's it's pretty much impossible to know. But 86 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 4: I think rather than focus on the negatives, that we 87 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 4: really should focus on the positives, which is that this 88 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 4: is a beautiful day. Donald Trump gave a very funny, 89 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 4: a very emotional speech in the Knesset. He was clearly 90 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 4: enjoying himself. There are a lot of genuinely kind of 91 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 4: slapstick comedy lines. The whole knets that the legislature was 92 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 4: really laughing there and overall kind of zumiya a little 93 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 4: bit and focused on on the bigger picture, Tony, this 94 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 4: is a really, really fantastic day for Usser relations. 95 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: The speech that he gave certainly was it was a 96 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: little bit you know, classic Trump. 97 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: There's a little bit all over the place. It was certainly. 98 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: Funny and trying to be a little bit light, like, hey, 99 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: this is celebration. I sometimes think in those moments that 100 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: Trump is so Trump that he misses moments that could 101 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: be better for him in their pronunciations. But in one 102 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: of his statements, for everything he has ever said, he 103 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: was very clear, Israel remains. He was very clear, and 104 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: that as he heads to Egypt for this other meaning this, 105 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: whether you call it a security meeting, whatever the case 106 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: may be, once you're sitting in front of the Canassa 107 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: and saying Israel remains, Israel's going to be here. 108 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: This anti semitism doesn't work. 109 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: He's setting up the story for how other things are 110 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: going to be presented. This clearly was the very fundamentals 111 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: of the Abraham Accords, which is to say, Okay, you've 112 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: got a problem with Israel regarding the Palestinians, but it 113 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense that you're not making money over here 114 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: or creating some peace over here. So do that and 115 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: then we'll get to the other stuff later. It was 116 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: a reversing of the concepts. Is Trump's speech today the 117 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: final word on that this is the way it is, 118 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: and everybody better get on board or your life is 119 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: going to stink. 120 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 3: Well, you're right that, especially in his first term, but 121 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 3: certainly to. 122 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 4: No small extent in this second term as well. I 123 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 4: think Trump's approach to the Israeli Palestinian conflict more generally 124 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 4: has been to essentially invert the bipartisan scripts for the 125 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 4: past fifty sixty years or so. For decades and decades, 126 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 4: you had this bipartisan two state solution cartel, the professional 127 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 4: peace profsers, these are the various terms that I've kind 128 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 4: of used over the years, and you basically have folks 129 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 4: from all the cross the spectrum who decided that the 130 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 4: only way to get a full and lasting piece in 131 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 4: the Middle East was to create to get another Muslim 132 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 4: majority states, which rachel to create a new Arab states 133 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 4: right in the heart of the Holy Land, states that 134 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 4: would be inevitably overrun by a Jihadis that would probably 135 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 4: become an Iranian say tropy overnight. 136 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 3: And the thinking goes that this was the. 137 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 4: One destabilizing issue in the region. But the beauty of 138 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 4: Donald Trump's vision for the Middle East, his vision for 139 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 4: foreign policy, I would argue more generally, is that he 140 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 4: doesn't view foreign policy through an ideological prism. He doesn't 141 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 4: view it through the same prism that someone like a 142 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 4: Barack Obama or even a George W. Bush would have 143 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 4: viewed it, whereby it's kind of an over an, over 144 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 4: emphasis on self determination, over emphasis that all cultures are alike, 145 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,679 Speaker 4: that we all have the same inevitable yearning for human freedom, 146 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 4: and so forth. 147 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 3: Theair No, Donald Trump used foreign policy not through. 148 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 4: Any of those ideological abstractions. He'd used foreign policy and 149 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 4: certainly the Middle East, through a hard hitted, hard headed, 150 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 4: excuse me, prism of American national interests, which is to 151 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 4: say that he is a foreign policy realist. And what 152 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 4: he showed in his first term and again I would 153 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 4: argue thus for on a second term, is that American 154 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 4: national interests and our security interests in the Middle East 155 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 4: are are strengthened, are not undermined, but our strengthen when 156 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 4: we go all in to bolster US Israel relations, when 157 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 4: we ensure that the rest of the region knows full 158 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 4: well where exactly the United States stands. The United States 159 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 4: stands unequivocally with Israel, and you have the more moderate, 160 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 4: non Islamist Arab states that get in line. That's how 161 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 4: you got the Abraham Accords with the uae Bahrain, Morocco 162 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 4: and so forth there. And I think you're seeing much 163 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 4: of the same here the twenty point plan that Donald 164 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 4: Trump has laid out, and we can, you know, we 165 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 4: can have a conversation as to whether or not that's 166 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 4: all going to happen. I have my suspicions. I think 167 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 4: will be a play way of saying it. But in theory, 168 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 4: what he's laying out for. 169 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 3: The rest of this plan after the hostages. 170 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 4: Have now been released, is that you're going to have 171 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 4: non Islamist actors. You're going to have moderate actors, God 172 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 4: willing that would come. 173 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 3: In and rule Gaza. 174 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 4: So it is it is a sober view of the 175 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 4: of the Israeli Palestinian conflict there. 176 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 3: And I certainly hope. 177 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 4: Tony, that this has got another dagger in the hearts 178 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 4: of the professortional two state solution cartel, because whatever may 179 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 4: happen in Gaza over the next five ten years, there's 180 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 4: a lot of questions remain about that there. 181 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: It's certainly not going. 182 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 4: To be a brand new nation state in the United 183 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 4: Nations or anything like that. 184 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: Or with Josh Hammer coming up, including what Candace Owens 185 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: said about him and the assassination of Charlie Kirk. 186 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: It's nuts. You won't believe it. Keep it here. I'm 187 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: Tony Katz and this is Tony kats Today. 188 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: Find everything at Tony Katz dot com. So what in 189 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: the world did Candace Owens say about our guest Josh 190 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: Hammer engaging this idea of somehow he's connected to the 191 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk assassination and is it actually grifft on the 192 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: part of Candace Owens, Does she believe anything she says 193 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: or does that part even matter when you hear what 194 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: it is that she's saying. Tony Katz, Tony Katz Today, 195 00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: great to be with you guys as always. 196 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: Talk to Josh Hammer. 197 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: You catch his work over at Newsweek, Senior editor at large, 198 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: host of The Josh Hammer Show. His book Israel and Civilization, 199 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: The Fate of the Jewish Nation and the Destiny of 200 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,839 Speaker 1: the West that's available at Amazon dot com wherever fine 201 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,719 Speaker 1: books are sold. The reason I had reached out and 202 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: said we need to get you back on the show, 203 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: it's what Candace Owens has been saying. 204 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: Now. 205 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: I have spoken to Kira Davis about this, who has 206 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,479 Speaker 1: long written about Candace Owens and seeing a specific issue. 207 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: Some may say that she's. 208 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: I've heard people discuss the fact that she's a grifter, 209 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: that she is somebody who sees an opportunity and takes 210 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: an opportunity. I would would definitely let people say that. 211 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: Some people say that she simply has always had these 212 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: very bigoted views, anti Semitic views, and has now built 213 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: up a platform large enough to be able to espouse 214 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: them without any level of fear. There is a supporter 215 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: for this content which we see on the what you 216 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: call it, the woke right, the new right, whatever the 217 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: case may be. I have never been a fan. I've 218 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: never had her on the show. I was once at 219 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: an event where she was speaking. I was part of 220 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: the little VIP meet and greet section. Didn't go for 221 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: the photograph I'm on record. But here is a different 222 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: conversation where she is accusing I'm utilizing the word accusing 223 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: my word. 224 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 2: You, who is friends with Charlie kirkr. 225 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: With being basically, in your own words, ludicrously accuse me 226 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: of fore knowledge or perhaps complicity in the murder of 227 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: my own friend Charlie Kirk. 228 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: What is happening here? 229 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, sony are there really are not enough adgitives in 230 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 4: any English language to describe what Kenneth Owens is accusing 231 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 4: me of here. I mean we can call it insane, deranged, evil, twisted, apathic, psychopathic, demonic, satanic. 232 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 4: I mean, those are just a few of the words 233 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 4: that jump immediately to mine. I mean, this is a 234 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 4: sick individual. I mean, this is a truly, truly sick individual. 235 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 4: And by the way, I like you. I actually was 236 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 4: never a fan either. I never fully understood exactly why 237 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 4: why she was being faded and kind of groomed as 238 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: an up and coming conservative star by many venerable conservative 239 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 4: organizations on. 240 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: The right eye. I never understood that in myself. 241 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 4: But whatever there may or may not have been as 242 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 4: far as merit to Candice Owns many many years ago. 243 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 4: This is a woman who has just been completely unhinged 244 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 4: off the rails. I would argue at least as far 245 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 4: going back as her defense of Kanye West three years ago, 246 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 4: back when he was going down his pro Hitler Nazi 247 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 4: apology a rabbit hole, but certainly even holding that aside, 248 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 4: at least since October seven, twenty twenty three, this is 249 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 4: a woman who it does not DeFi to merely call 250 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,599 Speaker 4: her anti Israel and anti Zionist, I mean she is 251 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 4: now spewing medieval style blood libels against the Jewish people. 252 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 4: She speaks of Jewish people in not the esque dehumanizing language, 253 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 4: calling me subhuman and filth. And she's literally doing this, Tony, 254 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 4: for one reason and one reason only, which is that 255 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 4: I am Jewish. I am an observant Jew. I wear 256 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 4: a kipa. I wrote a book about the Jews and 257 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 4: Western civilization earlier this year. And she can't stand the facts, 258 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 4: and people like her and Tucker Carlson that that whole cabal. 259 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: They can't stand the fact that. 260 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 4: Charlie Kirk had Jews like me in his inner circle, 261 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 4: because it complicates their narrative. It complicates their narrative that 262 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 4: Charlie was actively seeking friendships and alliances with individual Jews 263 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 4: like me, with the Jewish people more collectively, that he 264 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 4: believes strongly in us IS relations and in ecumenical Jewish 265 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 4: Christian Biblical alliance. All of this is completely contrary to 266 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 4: their narrative. I mean, I darely even purport to understand 267 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 4: the various things that Cannice is trying to string together 268 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 4: to insanely accuse me of this. She seems to be 269 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 4: relying upon this call well tweets a day or two 270 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 4: before Charlie's assassination. So's tonny. I mean, you know, you 271 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 4: and I both spend a lot of time on x 272 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 4: formally known as Twitter, and you. 273 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 3: Know there's this thing on Twitter where there's there's always 274 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: an old Donald Trump tweet. Right. People like to say 275 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: there's always. 276 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: A tweets tweet for everything, right, exactly. 277 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, the. 278 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 4: Day or two before charlie assassination, where the conservative conversation 279 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 4: was primarily about the horrific murder of Irena Zarutska, the 280 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 4: Ukrainian refugee in the Charlotte. 281 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 3: Light Rail and someone I don't know who it was. 282 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 4: I think I saw Sean Davis of the Federalist tweeting 283 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 4: about it. I can't I can't even remember. It doesn't 284 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 4: really matter. I saw a lot of folks for tweeting 285 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 4: this old Donald Trump tweet. I think it was from 286 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 4: twenty thirteen in the context of the Boston marathon bombing, 287 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 4: calling for a public execution for the bomber for the 288 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 4: Jihadis show carz Arnaev, and I quote tweeted that as 289 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 4: a lot of people on my feed were doing that day, 290 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 4: and I said based as in, like, I support this 291 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 4: when it comes to the killer of Arena Zarutska. 292 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 3: So Candice looked. 293 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 4: At the timeline and says, oh my god, Josh Hammer 294 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 4: was talking about the assassination. 295 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 3: Of Charlie Kirk. 296 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 4: I mean, he's just so stupid that. I mean, it 297 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 4: genuinely makes you wonder whether or not she's actually this 298 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 4: low IQ or whether or not she's actually evil. I 299 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 4: think it's probably a combination of both those things. What's 300 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 4: worth there. What I do know, Tony is that once 301 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 4: upon a time before this nation in the United States 302 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 4: unfortunately liberalized, it's involuntary commitment law. Someone like Kenneth Ollenes 303 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 4: would have been in the ku crazy world of a 304 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 4: mental asylum at this point. 305 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: There. 306 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 4: I believe that I have likely been defamed. I am 307 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 4: a lawyer. I first for a federal appeals judge. I've 308 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 4: spoken at all the top law schools in America. I 309 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 4: know a thing or two about the law. Here I'm 310 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 4: speaking with other lawyers. I think that I would likely 311 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 4: have a very serious case of defamation. I've not decided 312 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 4: yet whether to pull the trigger and actually proceed with that, 313 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 4: but we have a real vible shot if I do 314 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 4: decide to go for. 315 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: He seems that she's got a couple of people the 316 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: whole Bridget Mark Cone Macron conversation. But I think that 317 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: the question before many people is okay. So let's say 318 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: she she's got some issue with Jews. 319 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: Let's say. 320 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: This is an audience that she found and she just 321 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: wants to make it. I don't know if that part 322 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: is true or not. By the way, I would have 323 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: no idea if she believes it or doesn't. That part 324 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: doesn't even register with me. But it's a far cry 325 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: from oh yeah, that guy, he's complicit. 326 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: He might as well have just pulled the trigger. 327 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: That's a real chasm, that's a that's a massive, massive divide. 328 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: So let me get into now the. 329 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: First part of my question, which is what specific Is 330 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: there a specific issue that Candace has with you from 331 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: something in history, some moment together or or or statement 332 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: made that created this this level of animals Tony, it's. 333 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 4: Literally just a fact that I'm Jewish, that that that is, 334 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 4: That is literally all that. 335 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 3: Is happening here. 336 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 4: I I've actually never even met Kenness Owens. 337 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: I don't believe it. 338 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm sure we've been in the same room 339 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 4: at some party or gallo or something. 340 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 3: I don't really know. 341 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 4: But we've never had a conversation face to face. It's 342 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 4: literally just just something that that has never happened. 343 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 3: Now. 344 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 4: I think she's been a longstanding skeptic of mine, going 345 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 4: back at least as far as as when I mentioned 346 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 4: the Kanye weston a few years ago. Because I was 347 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 4: one of the I was one of the first ones 348 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 4: to call her. 349 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 3: Out for that. 350 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 4: There were there are actually very few people at that 351 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 4: time who were really kind of from day one calling 352 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 4: out Candid for going down this movie. Sara Khan, Nation 353 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 4: of Visil On rabbit hole, and I did a lot 354 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 4: of tweeting and podcasting and so forth about that at 355 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 4: the time, and she was probably not happy about me 356 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 4: back back then as well. 357 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 3: But I call out her grift, Tony. I mean that 358 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 3: kind of my emo. 359 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 4: Anyone who follows me, follows my show, follows my column, 360 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 4: or you read my book, whatever, if you know anything 361 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 4: about what I do on a data basis, I call 362 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 4: it like I see it. I'm not there to try 363 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 4: and get the invitor to try and get in some 364 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 4: sort of cool kids club there. Look, I mentioned I 365 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 4: was a lawyer. I worked at Kirklanellis. I worked at 366 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 4: a major, major law from years ago. If I want 367 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 4: to pursue that career path, I. 368 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 3: Would have been just fine. The reason that I decided 369 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 3: to kind of shove all that to the side and 370 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 3: get involved in. 371 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 4: This space in the commentary, opining, business and so forth 372 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 4: there is because I care and because I actually want 373 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 4: to call it like I see it. I have no 374 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 4: interest in doing this for the sake of just going 375 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 4: along to get along. So Candice owns a fraud. She 376 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 4: is a fraud, she is a grifter, and she is 377 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 4: just a horrific, horrific human being who frankly desperately needs help. 378 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 4: She is profoundly unwell, and I don't know exactly what 379 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 4: that help entails, but she desperately desperately needs it. And 380 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 4: I think that that alone, come out of the fact 381 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 4: that I am publicly and conspicuously Jewish, really is what 382 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 4: It throws her off so much. But again, it complicates 383 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 4: her narrative as well as telling me. It really complicates 384 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 4: her narrative. When it comes to trying to define Charlie 385 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 4: Church's legacy. There's been all this insane debate after Charlie's 386 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 4: horrific assassination about his legacy when it comes to the 387 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 4: Jewish people and the Jewish. 388 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 3: State of Israel, which is disturbing in and of. 389 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 4: Itself, right, I mean, Charlie was murdered by a left 390 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 4: wing fanatic, someone who was in a romantic relationship with 391 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 4: a transgender individual. He had this bizarre fetish for free 392 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 4: culture online. I mean, he had the lyrics to the 393 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 4: Italian Marxist song Bella Chao, you know, on the bullets. So, 394 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 4: I mean, this is a guy whose left wing bona 395 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 4: fittees are not in doubt. The fact that we're having 396 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 4: a conversation at all about the Jews is disturbing. But 397 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 4: Candice w was partaking in that sort of conversation and 398 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 4: she just can't stand the fact that I was a 399 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 4: Jew who was in Charlie's inner circle. It complicates her narrative. Therefore, 400 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 4: the narrative must be undermined by any means necessary. 401 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: So now that leads to the part too right. So 402 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: the first part was the idea of animus. The second 403 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: part is I must say I should have seen it coming, 404 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: the idea of well, it must have been a conspiracy 405 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: that brings about the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And then 406 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: I've said this before. We were not friends, we weren't enemies. 407 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: We just didn't know each other, right, followed each other 408 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: on social media. That was the very extent of it, 409 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: which is completely fine. The idea of oh, it must 410 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: be a conspiracy. That's this part of the political right. 411 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: And listen, I'm not a populist by any stretch of 412 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: the imagination. I am a conservative based on the value system. 413 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: This thing that is happening is not healthy, it's not good. 414 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: This desire to it had to have been something more 415 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: nefarious than it is. I don't know how you get 416 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: more nefarious than progressives genning people up so believing that 417 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: if someone says something you don't like, you should hurt 418 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: them to stop them from speaking. 419 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: I don't. 420 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: It can't get more nefarious than that. So where does 421 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: this part come from, this desire for this to be 422 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: some part great of a great cabal, of a great conspiracy, 423 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: as opposed to the one we're staring at every single 424 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: day that we can clearly prove. 425 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 3: It's a good question. 426 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 4: I mean, Tony, we live in somewhat conspiratorial times, right, 427 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 4: I mean, I mean, here's the paradox, as far as 428 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 4: I see it. We live in times where the American 429 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 4: people's ability to believe and trust narratives and elites and 430 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 4: authorities has declined. And I've been part of that, to 431 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 4: be clear, because I also, like many other my fellow Americans, 432 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 4: do not trust societal elites nearly as much as I 433 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 4: think they would like to be believed. And I actually 434 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 4: date this personally going back to Russiagate. In my mind, 435 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 4: the Rushiagate scandal, I can draw direct line from russia 436 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 4: Gate and the Moler probe to the twenty twenty COVID 437 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 4: nineteen lockdowns. The two tier lockdowns when it came to 438 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 4: the Black Lives Matter and TIVA folks getting out of 439 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 4: Scott's Free while all sorts of religious Christians and Jews 440 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 4: are not allowed to go pray together. To that, to 441 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 4: the twenty twenty election in the hunter Byden Laptop, to 442 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 4: the prosecution of Donald Trump and all the various Biden, 443 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 4: Merrick Garland, DOJ lawair and on and on. It's been 444 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 4: a series of events that I think have really torn 445 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 4: the mask off when it comes to the American people's 446 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 4: ability to trust, to side to elite private and public 447 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 4: sector elise and so forth. And again, much of that 448 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 4: is valid and legitimate, but the unfortunate downside is that 449 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 4: when society goes down an ultra conspiratorial path and you 450 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 4: truly lose the ability to distinguish fast from fiction and 451 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 4: right from wrong, good from evil, etc. Historically, Tony, there 452 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 4: is one group of people that are on the wrong 453 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 4: end of the inevitable sentiments that flow out the beck 454 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 4: of spiritual mentality, and that people is, as you and 455 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 4: I both know, the Jewish people going back. 456 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: Many thousands of years. 457 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 4: So I think one of the easiest ways to try 458 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 4: to not put the genie back in the bottle. But 459 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 4: it tries to really just diminish, to diminish the clouts 460 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 4: or the perceived clouds or whatever it may be. A 461 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 4: people like Candade's owned and talk Carlson is we have 462 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 4: to try to foster a new counter elite, an actually authentic, 463 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 4: reputable It's a lead group that is on team Civilizational Sanity, 464 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 4: that is not part of the team Civilizational Arson. 465 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: I've seen my friend Chris Rufo of. 466 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 4: The Manhattanitute and tweet about this and write many articles 467 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 4: about this. Chris is big on the notion of forming 468 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 4: some sort of counter elite. It's a long standing product. 469 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 4: It's not the kind thing that happens overnight. But we 470 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 4: can try and orient a lot of conserve institutions towards 471 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,360 Speaker 4: trying to do that. That should, in the mid to long term, 472 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 4: try to restore more credibility to the American ruling class, 473 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 4: and that, in turn, I think would have a positive 474 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 4: effect when it comes to ltimately trying to get rid 475 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 4: of some of this anti Semita grifter. 476 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: Nonsense, which then you have to start with what's the 477 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: purpose of an elite? 478 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 2: But we'll get to that another day. 479 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: Josh Hammer I appreciate you taking the time in explaining 480 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: what's what the article Operation Divide Maga, which is an 481 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: interesting way to understand what it is believed Candice Owns 482 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: is trying to do here or a lot of this 483 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: woke right that's available at newsweek dot com Operation Divide Maga, 484 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: and the book Israel on Civilization, The Fate of the 485 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: Jewish Nation and the Destiny of the West is at 486 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: Amazon dot com wherever fine books are sold. 487 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: Josh, thank you. More to get to I'm Tony Katz.