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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of concern about data centers. Kind

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Speaker 1: of thought that the city video dopples had got the memo,

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Speaker 1: but according to our next guest, maybe not. It's kittle

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Speaker 1: a Casey Show. Join in studio our old pal, Jesse Brown,

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Speaker 1: Member the Indianapolis City County Council.

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Speaker 2: Jesse Brown, Hello, good morning, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now, people are very mad that you and I

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Speaker 1: are friends because you and I are like the bizarro

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Speaker 1: world people. It's true, you are the left version of

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Speaker 1: what I am on the right. And I say I

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Speaker 1: like Jesse Brown because he's honest.

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Speaker 2: And you're entertaining. And look, I think you.

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Speaker 1: Do things quite a bit that are far more in

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Speaker 1: touch with the people than the rank and file Democrats

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Speaker 1: and even the Republicans.

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Speaker 2: And this next topic is just that.

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Speaker 1: So obviously, there was this huge issue with data centers

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Speaker 1: with Google this past year in the City of Indianapolis.

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Speaker 1: It ultimately gets sort of tabled and pushed to and

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Speaker 1: you came out and said, Okay, why don't we pass

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Speaker 1: some common sense things to put some parameters around these

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Speaker 1: data centers. And the other night your fellow council member said.

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Speaker 2: Now, we're not doing that.

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Speaker 3: That's a pretty good summary. Yeah, hells, tell us about

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Speaker 3: what you put for sure. Well, just a little bit

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Speaker 3: more background of context. Yes, there was the huge I

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Speaker 3: mean it made national news, the Franklin Township data center.

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Speaker 3: My couple of heart did an admirable job kind of

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Speaker 3: leading community resistance against it. Bernie Sanders tweeted about it

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Speaker 3: because it was such a big populist issue, right left

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Speaker 3: and right, I think both agreed for once.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but that wasn't the only one. Right.

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Speaker 3: So we've got this metro blocks data center in Martin Dell, Brightwood,

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Speaker 3: We've got Decatur. I think you know, three hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty people couldn't fit in the door the last time

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Speaker 3: they had a big public meeting about it. Pike Township

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Speaker 3: has another one. There was one week in mid November

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Speaker 3: when by my count, there were over eight hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty different people in Indianapolis who were at some different

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Speaker 3: anti data center meeting or another.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question real quick, because you've

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Speaker 1: obviously now gotten to learn about these and shit. And

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Speaker 1: I had a very high profile media person that called

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Speaker 1: me the other day and was asking how do we

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Speaker 1: sell the data centers? And I said, you don't until

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Speaker 1: they're honest about what's going on. And so much both

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Speaker 1: at the state level with the IDC and at with

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Speaker 1: these the companies themselves, is people don't see the perceived value.

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Speaker 3: Right, exactly right. And I want to get to that

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Speaker 3: in a second. But yeah, let's just put up in

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Speaker 3: what I was saying, because I want to hit that

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Speaker 3: really hard. At the end of the day, as a city,

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Speaker 3: county councilor my job is to represent my constituents, right,

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Speaker 3: And so I've talked to some of my peers it's like, well, really,

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Speaker 3: people are just misinformed and they just don't understand data centers,

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Speaker 3: and it's they're just uneducated about this. I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: first off, I disagree, but let's say that's true. Let's

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Speaker 3: say it's just a bunch of Yogles who just have

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Speaker 3: no idea what they're talking about. We still work for them.

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Speaker 3: We don't work for Google, we don't work for Meta,

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Speaker 3: we don't work for Amazon. Right, we are supposed to

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Speaker 3: be representing our constituents, and if they want to hold

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Speaker 3: out for a better explanation among the other benefits, then

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Speaker 3: that's part of what we should be demanding.

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Speaker 2: So tell me a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit about well, let's go to this because what

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Speaker 1: value do the data centers bring that you can see?

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Speaker 1: Then I want to get to you or Bill, because look,

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Speaker 1: I told this media person the other day about this.

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Speaker 1: He said, Look, I feel like I understand local government

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Speaker 1: better than ninety nine and a half percent of the populace.

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Speaker 1: And I've tried to study this and I don't see it.

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Speaker 1: Between the abatements, the ITDC giveaways, the lack of employees, Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't see it.

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Speaker 2: Do you see it?

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Speaker 3: I don't, And I mean, let me just preach to

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Speaker 3: the bishop here for a secon because I know you

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Speaker 3: know this stuff better than I do. Even but any development,

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Speaker 3: the benefit to the local community is they pay more

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Speaker 3: in tax dollars than what they take out, right, and

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Speaker 3: so data centers you see these giant price tags, right,

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Speaker 3: like five hundred million dollar data center, and you think

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Speaker 3: about all the tax dollars that come with that, and

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Speaker 3: it's like, well, of course, no brainer. That's what my

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Speaker 3: other counselors are seeing, right. They don't want to lose

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Speaker 3: out on these big quote unquote investments into the community.

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Speaker 3: I get that, but like you said, they're having giant

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Speaker 3: fifty year sales tax abatements on the property they purchased inside.

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Speaker 3: Then they're asking for local property tax abatements. So at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day, we're almost paying them to

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Speaker 3: build this giant are unpopular, noisy thing in the middle

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Speaker 3: of community.

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Speaker 2: Why does nobody see this though?

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Speaker 1: Because to me, it's basic math, right, Like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: when I was elected person, you would always look at

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Speaker 1: and we did abatements. I'm not opposed to abatements, but

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Speaker 1: you can't throw in all these financial incentives and cash giveaways.

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Speaker 1: And like, are your colleagues, because we're seeing this in

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Speaker 1: Shelbyville going on now, right, are these local government people

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Speaker 1: just not capable of doing math or reading or what's

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Speaker 1: going on?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, if you look at some really really

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Speaker 3: rosy projections, it can look really good. But I used

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Speaker 3: to work in big tech before I dropped out to

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Speaker 3: be a broke city councilor, and most of my former

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Speaker 3: colleagues are saying, you know, these AI HYPERSCALA data centers.

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Speaker 3: It's a bubble, right, So you look at the stock market,

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Speaker 3: it's Nvidia investig in itself, their shell companies, and at

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Speaker 3: some point the bubble's going to burst if We've given

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Speaker 3: away the farm to let them build what turns into

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Speaker 3: an empty box where nothing's being generated. All the tax

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Speaker 3: dollars go away with it, and now we're sitting on

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Speaker 3: something that's really difficult to redevelop.

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Speaker 1: Jesse Brown from the Indianapolis City County Council is our guest.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about data centers. So you came out and said, okay,

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Speaker 1: we want to avoid the Google debacle again. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of like, help me, help you, right, if we set

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Speaker 1: these parameters, we can maybe cut some things off before

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Speaker 1: they get so far down and people get hard feelings.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about the bill you'd put forward.

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Speaker 3: Sure, So in November I said, hey, look at this point,

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Speaker 3: I want a total moratorium. I want to take a

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Speaker 3: one year pause button while we just figure out the

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Speaker 3: best policy to move forward immediately. Some of my fellow

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Speaker 3: councilors said, whoa, that's way too far. We don't want

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Speaker 3: to do that, even though three counties in Indiana did

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Speaker 3: it before us. Sure, okay, So I'm nothing if not

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Speaker 3: a reasonable guy, and real quick.

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Speaker 1: Every the local governments have the ability to do this, right, three.

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Speaker 2: Counties already have, so Rich County could do it. Hamilton

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Speaker 2: County could do it.

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Speaker 1: If the people are actually against the data centers, they

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Speaker 1: could just stop it right.

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Speaker 3: Now, that's right. I mean, the Statehouse could intervene. We

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Speaker 3: know that they loved a pre imp local rule, right

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Speaker 3: but as of right now, that's still possible. They've done

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Speaker 3: it for solar farms, they could do it for data centers,

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Speaker 3: and they've started to. So I said, let's start there.

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Speaker 3: My peers pushed back. I knew I'm one out of

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Speaker 3: twenty five votes. I can't just get something rammed through

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Speaker 3: if I want, So I decided to bed they hate you. Yes, yes, oh, yes,

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Speaker 3: no question.

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Speaker 2: That's what I like you, because they hate you.

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Speaker 3: Not every single counselor, but many of them won't look

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Speaker 3: me in the eye, won't respond to my text.

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Speaker 2: It's me and girls at middle school. It seriously is.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like in a professional setting. But

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Speaker 3: so I decided to try to get a middle of

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Speaker 3: the road proposal. So what I asked for actually for

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Speaker 3: the December meeting, which President Opposi refused to put on

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Speaker 3: the agenda, I missed an arbitrary deadline that he had

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Speaker 3: every ability to waive.

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Speaker 2: He chose not to allow it on the agenda.

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Speaker 3: So it went up in January something I wrote in November,

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Speaker 3: and all it was, it was just basically a piece

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Speaker 3: of paper, no real enforcement mechanism, but it was a

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Speaker 3: starting point for the conversation. And what I said is

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Speaker 3: ban NDA is at the very least not disclosure agreements.

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Speaker 1: Right, because the thing that came out in the Google deal,

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Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, is they were like cutting

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Speaker 1: deals with the school system, right, but nobody could reveal

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Speaker 1: this because of these NDAs that they signed exactly, which

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Speaker 1: and ridiculous because that's a public government entd. We have

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Speaker 1: the right to know what deals they're cutting with private developers. Right.

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Speaker 3: Even Michael Paul Hart signed an NDA, otherwise he was

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Speaker 3: going to be cut out altogether from the process. So

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Speaker 3: for months he knew what was going on. It was

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Speaker 3: not allowed to tell his concents who he's supposed to

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Speaker 3: be working for. So he brought up the problems with

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Speaker 3: that Google also came under a fake name, right, They

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Speaker 3: came under Deep Meadow Ventures so that people wouldn't get

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Speaker 3: to know that it was this giant billionaire tech company.

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Speaker 2: And this is so people need to know. This is

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Speaker 2: how the I E.

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Speaker 1: Anything iedc operates is because it's happened in Brownsburg, where

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Speaker 1: I live. They give these code names and the governments

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Speaker 1: are passing all of this stuff and the public has

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Speaker 1: no idea who they are or what giveaways are happening.

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Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right that should not happen. If you're

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Speaker 1: going to come to a community, you walk through the

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Speaker 1: front door. If you're taking our money, we have the

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Speaker 1: right to know who you are exactly.

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Speaker 3: And the reason Google and the Googles of the world

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Speaker 3: don't want to do that is because it's like, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: they'll know our pockets are so deep, so they're demanding

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Speaker 3: more in negotiations, like yes, and we should. Right, if

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Speaker 3: you're already successful, you can afford to pay a little

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Speaker 3: bit more, right right, Okay, Jesse Brown, our guest, remember

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Speaker 3: the Indianapos City County Council a couple of minutes left

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Speaker 3: with him. We're talking about this Billy put forward which

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Speaker 3: was voted down, which would have put some guard rails,

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Speaker 3: for lack of a better term, on how data centers

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Speaker 3: are done.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you had the no no NDA deal. What

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Speaker 1: else was a part of this?

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Speaker 3: We encourage people to use community benefit agreements, so that's

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Speaker 3: again those negotiations with the community. You know, that's kind

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Speaker 3: of what Google was trying to do using little side

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Speaker 3: deals of township schools. We just wanted them to be

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Speaker 3: written in stone so that we can enforce them moving forward,

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Speaker 3: and so the community gets to participate in that negotiation,

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Speaker 3: and we asked for them to avoid using local property

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Speaker 3: tax abatements as well, so we can't unfortunately, I mean

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Speaker 3: I can't just say hey, Joe Hogs that you have

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Speaker 3: to stop doing this. So the administration does have some rights.

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Speaker 3: This would at least say we hear from our constituents,

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Speaker 3: we don't want property tax abatements for these given the

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Speaker 3: fifty year sales tax that the state's already given them.

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Speaker 1: And I've said that this, and you're spotting with these

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Speaker 1: data centers. They need us more than we need them.

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Speaker 1: That's why they're getting any abatement whatsoever is beyond me. Look,

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Speaker 1: people get come at you for being a socialist, but

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Speaker 1: those all seem.

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Speaker 2: Very moderate, right, like middle of the road, like common

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Speaker 2: sense things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and your counselor said, ah right, I mean I

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Speaker 3: could get into more socialists ra ra rhetoric about it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, big tech is controlling greater and

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Speaker 3: greater portions of people's lives, and I think we need

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Speaker 3: to resist that and bring it back to the people

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Speaker 3: and away from these corporate overlords.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: And I could go off all day, but I know

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Speaker 3: what show I'm on, right, So, hey, look, you and

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Speaker 3: i've had this conversation before.

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Speaker 1: I think you and I feel the same way about

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Speaker 1: the corporations, which is I want people to make as

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Speaker 1: much money legal as they possibly can. But when we

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Speaker 1: stack the deck in favor of one group or one

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Speaker 1: team or whatever, which we keep doing in this state,

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Speaker 1: I'm wholeheartedly against that. And so so it was thirteen

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Speaker 1: to eleven was the final vote, and the Republicans sank

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Speaker 1: the thing.

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Speaker 2: That's right. That's crazy. So they're repul including Michael Paul Hart,

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Speaker 2: that's right. So they're all in on the data center.

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Speaker 1: You can't say I'm against the data center if they

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Speaker 1: voted against this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was pretty shocked, you know.

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Speaker 3: Conselhart told me afterwards, he's like, well, the thing is,

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Speaker 3: I just can't support a total moratorium. And I looked

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Speaker 3: at him because the belly introduced said we don't want

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Speaker 3: a total moratorium, and so I was like, well, that's

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Speaker 3: exactly why I wrote it this way and not the

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Speaker 3: way I wanted to write it original account Slor And

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Speaker 3: he's like, oh, I guess maybe I misread it.

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Speaker 2: Are you gonna run from air? I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, still waiting on that five million dollar track.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, look, you gotta look at Mom Donnie,

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Speaker 3: and look, I don't.

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Speaker 1: Think you're I've always I've always said you're you're a

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Speaker 1: less extreme socialist.

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Speaker 2: I think you're a little more lovable socialist.

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Speaker 1: But you gotta look at guys like Mom Donnie and go, hey,

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Speaker 1: people are people are sick of the crap, and.

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Speaker 2: You know you're the most honest guy up there. Maybe

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Speaker 2: you got a shot. Hey.

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Speaker 3: I mean I think I could do okay, but what

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Speaker 3: I don't want to do is spoil the race and

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Speaker 3: let another Joe hawks that type get ends.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Jesse Brown, thank you, my friend, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's kentll Casey Show ninety three WIBC.