1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: There is a new documentary out on Netflix. It's a 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: three part series, Conversations with the Killer, The Son of 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Sam Tapes, and it is fascinating. It's Kennell and Casey Show, 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: and Rob Casey's here joining us now in the WIBC hotline. 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Joe Berlinger. He is the Emmy Award winning, an OSCAR 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: nominated filmmaker who put it together. Joe. 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 2: Hello, Hey, nice to talk to you guys. How you 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: doing great? 9 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: So tell us about this three part docuseries, Conversations with 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: the Killer, The Son of Sam Tapes. Tell us what 11 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: it's all about. 12 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I have an ongoing series at Netflix called 13 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: Conversations with the Killer. Previous seasons have been Ted Bundy, 14 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 2: John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer. This season, season four is 15 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: David Berkowitz, The Son of Sam. The series revolves around 16 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: recordings by the serial killer around the commission of the crime. 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: So these were. 18 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: Tapes that were we've discovered that were recorded in nineteen 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: eighty and so we tell the whole story of Son 20 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: of Sam, and young people may not Younger people may 21 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: not remember the story or you know, or the condition 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: of New York City at the time. But New York 23 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: City in the mid seventies was just an utter wreck. 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: It was going through a financial crisis. Half the police 25 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 2: force was laid off. There was ramp and crime like 26 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: you can't imagine. The city was in a state of disrepair. 27 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 2: And into this healthscape walked a random shooter, David Berkowitz, 28 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: who called himself the Son of Sam. And he would 29 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 2: stick a gun into the car window of young couples, 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: you know, making out in a lover's lane, you know, 31 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: very very random shootings. And he ended up killing six 32 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: Injuring seven and it took a year for him to 33 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: be caught, and New York was gripped in fear like 34 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: it never has been, you know, people, even though statistically 35 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: the chance of getting you know, in the city of 36 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 2: seven million people was low. Literally the city was paralyzed. 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: Hey Joe, Joe the Hey Joe, real quick. I was 38 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 1: just gonna ask you. I just want to introduce you again. 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: Our guests were just shooting at Joe Burlinger. He's the 40 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning an OSCAR nominated filmmaker. His brand new docuseries, 41 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: Conversations with the Killer The Son of Sam tapes available 42 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: on Netflix. How do you get these tapes, because every 43 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: one of these series you've done on the aforementioned famous 44 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: serial killers is fascinating. How do you come into these tapes? 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: You know a lot. I have to be honest. I 46 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: wish I could say that I'm some amazing detective who's 47 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: dug up amazing material. But the first time we did 48 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 2: this for Ted Bundy, an author named Stephen Michaux who 49 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 2: wrote a book that came out in nineteen eighty nine, 50 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: you know, called Ted Bundy Conversations with a Killer, reached 51 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: out to me because he had for this book that 52 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: came out in nineteen eighty nine, he had audio recordings 53 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: of Bundy that he used for his research. He interviewed 54 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: Bundy on. 55 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: Death Row before shortly before his. 56 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: Execution, and turned it into a book. And in twenty eighteen, 57 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: so decades later, he was a fan of my film 58 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: Paradise Lost, and he reached out and he said, hey, 59 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 2: I found these tapes in my closet cleaning out my office. 60 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: You know, they were my research tapes from my book. 61 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: Do you think there'd be an interesting documentary there? And 62 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: I said, well, you know, Ted Bundy has been told 63 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: many times, but you know, let me take a listen 64 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: to the tapes, and I was fascinated with the point 65 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: of view and the perspective that the tapes provide. So 66 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: I pitched it to Netflix, not even sure that they 67 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: would want to do something like this, and it ended 68 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 2: up being the number one show on Netflix that year, 69 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: number one documentary show, and so they've asked for more 70 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: and once once that show hit, like, you can't believe 71 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: how many people reach out to me and say, hey, 72 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: I have these tapes of the serial killer, you know, 73 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: and some of the tapes are just not worth you know, 74 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: I don't find that I've turned some people down because 75 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: the tapes aren't that revealing, But the ones that I 76 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: say yes to are these incredibly revealing recordings. You know, 77 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: Generally speaking, serial killers are unreliable narrators and they like 78 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: to be in a good tale. But in each of 79 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: these instances, the tapes are pretty are pretty compelling, and 80 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 2: you know, we only include material that we can corroborate. Joe, Obviously, 81 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: they're fairly. 82 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 3: I was gonna say truth. 83 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 2: There, they're fairly truthful, but go ahead. 84 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 3: True true crime is obviously very popular, but there's also 85 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 3: people who are critical of it, saying that it does 86 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 3: give these serial killers a platform. So how do you 87 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: balance the storytelling with the investigation. 88 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, look, there's a lot of irresponsible true crime 89 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: that while is in the misery of others, without any 90 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 2: larger social context or social justice. There's a lot of 91 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 2: shows that don't take the victims into account because of 92 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: an irreverent tone, things like that. So I think these 93 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: are very important stories to tell, especially for a younger 94 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: audience as a cautionary tale. You know, when I was 95 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: doing the Bundy tapes, both of my daughters were college aged, 96 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: prototypical Bundy victims, collegiate women with long hair. And at 97 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: the Thanksgiving table, I asked both of my daughters, who 98 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 2: are home from college, do you know who Ted Bundy is? 99 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: And neither one of them did, And I said, hey, 100 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: text your friends, and no one knew who Ted Bundy was. 101 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: And of course, the lesson of Ted Bundy is that 102 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 2: just because somebody is charming and good looking, it doesn't 103 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: mean you should trust them, because a lot of young 104 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: collegiate women women trusted Bundy only to be murdered by him. 105 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: Joe, Joe, Joe, can you say that again? That just 106 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: what did you say just because someone's charming and good 107 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: looking doesn't mean you should trust him. That's the greatest 108 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: life advice I've ever heard. 109 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: Well, that's the lesson of That's the lesson of Bundy, 110 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: and I wanted to put that out for my daughter's generation. 111 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: So true crime. You know, a lot of people do 112 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: criticize people for there's a knee jerk reaction about about 113 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: crime storytelling. But you know, human beings are the only 114 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: entities on this planet that kill for any other reason 115 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: than survival or for eating, and so it's part of 116 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: the human condition, and we certainly don't tell people, don't 117 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: make stories about greed, don't make stories about adultery, you know, 118 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 2: making stories about murder is sadly, it's part of the 119 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: human condition and there's things to learn from it. So 120 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 2: I reject this idea that just any show about a 121 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: serial killer is giving them a platform. It's lessons we 122 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: have to learn, Guest, I do agree. You have to 123 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: do it responsibly, definitely. You know there are very irresponsible 124 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 2: versions of true crime out there. 125 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: He's got a brand new three part Netflix Docusaries Conversations 126 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: with the Killer, The Son of Sam tapes before I 127 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: Let You Go. I'm fascinating how long does it take 128 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: you to put this together? 129 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 2: It's about a year process. You know. We researched for 130 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: a couple of months, we filmed for a couple of months, 131 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 2: and then we edit for about six months. It takes 132 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: it takes about a year to put it all together. 133 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: What's the big reveal? Why should people watch this three 134 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: part docu series? What's something you think they're going to 135 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: learn or see that makes it worth the time? 136 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's excellent storytelling, of course, so that's 137 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: that's fun, that's worth it. But I look at this, 138 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: I look at this case as kind of the foundational 139 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 2: case to why we are all obsessed with crime now. 140 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: You know, true crime programming has never been more popular. 141 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: And because David Berkowitz in an era without social media, 142 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 2: in an era before the big twenty four hour cable 143 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: news cycle that just blew up you know, news, before 144 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: all of this, Berkowitz had the city gripped in fear 145 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: because of how we interacted with the media, and the 146 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: media was only too willing to comply. And so out 147 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: of this, I think grew this codependency of media and 148 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: true crime fans, you know, never being satisfied with enough 149 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: and wanting more and more, and that's kind of where 150 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: we are today. I've never seen so much interest in 151 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,239 Speaker 2: true crime, and I trace it back to this case. 152 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: All right, Joe, the other three that you mentioned are phenomenal. 153 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to see this when you guys do 154 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: great work with this. The Conversations with the Killer, The 155 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: Son of Sam tapes on Netflix. Thank you for your 156 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: time and great work that you guys do here. 157 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 2: Appreciate it. 158 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,599 Speaker 3: You're listening to Kenvil and Casey. It's ninety three WIBC.