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Speaker 1: Monday, worriam mean means ride Denise Dumbsol, you mean me Rye.

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Speaker 2: Good morning.

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Speaker 3: It is Casey and Jim AT's ninety three WIBC joining

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Speaker 3: us in the WIBC studios now former FBI special Agent

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Speaker 3: Corey Grass who spent twenty years in counter terrorism. And

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Speaker 3: we've got some questions for you today. But first you,

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Speaker 3: how is it that we were both in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 3: On the same weekend and we didn't know? Thanks for

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Speaker 3: the text.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys didn't coordinate. You left me behind just Wednesdays,

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Speaker 1: my only day with you guys.

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Speaker 2: Whatever, you should have let us know. We could have

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Speaker 2: hooked up.

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Speaker 3: Of course you were at the egg roll at the

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Speaker 3: White House. I was tell us all about it.

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Speaker 1: I got a call last week from Center Banks' staff,

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Speaker 1: so big things to him and his staff are reached

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Speaker 1: out to my family. I got to take my daughter,

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Speaker 1: my wife out. It was Monday morning. I was really

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Speaker 1: hoping to cross paths with the President, but didn't quite

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Speaker 1: work out that way. He was there a little before me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they frown upon when you start stalking

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Speaker 3: or seeking him out at public events.

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Speaker 1: Now you're trying to get me in trouble because I

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Speaker 1: told you off the airs exactly what I did.

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Speaker 3: I heard that that's the largest event that the United

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Speaker 3: States Secret Service puts together at the White House.

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Speaker 1: I believe that people a lot of different movements, a

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Speaker 1: lot of different gates you had to go through, obviously security,

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Speaker 1: but also just put you on corrals almost like Disney

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Speaker 1: World in a lot of ways. So many different events

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Speaker 1: you could do there inside the facility. It was. It

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Speaker 1: was pretty amazing.

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Speaker 2: So you had a good time. The weather was beautiful,

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Speaker 2: it was.

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Speaker 1: Almost perfect like that. Yeah, sunny, relatively warm, flags blowing,

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Speaker 1: kids running around, people in beautiful outfits. A lot of

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Speaker 1: people from Indiana. I ran across there. I made sure

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Speaker 1: to wear a hoo'sier gear.

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Speaker 3: So what do you have to do now for Indiana

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Speaker 3: Senator Jim Banks?

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Speaker 2: Because he got you like, what's the trade off? What

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Speaker 2: do you got to do?

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Speaker 1: As Jim could attest, I've been a big fant of

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Speaker 1: Center Banks for a long time, so I don't have

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Speaker 1: to do anything for Centator Banks, but I choose to

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Speaker 1: say his wise decisions.

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Speaker 4: And that in a firm handshake, thank you.

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Speaker 2: He just says nice things about him on the radio.

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Speaker 1: And it's and Chris Crabtree. By the way, if if

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Speaker 1: they're Chris and there, Chris is actually want to reach out.

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Speaker 1: He's Bloomtin guy as well, so I appreciate. I Actually

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Speaker 1: I have a really good relationship with all team Banks.

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Speaker 1: He's got some great guys on his team.

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's talk about the FBI Most Wanted List.

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Speaker 1: We're going to transition.

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Speaker 3: Sounds good, iconic, right, tell us how do they make

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Speaker 3: that list?

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Speaker 1: You mentioned iconic. It's about seventy five years old and

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Speaker 1: it came around back in the nineteen fifty is forty nine.

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Speaker 1: A newspaper reached out to ask about the toughest Future.

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Speaker 1: There's the worst people they wanted to get in. The

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Speaker 1: FBI came up with the idea to have the top ten.

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Speaker 1: All fifty six officers around the country can nominate people

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Speaker 1: for that list, and it goes through the Criminal Investigative Division.

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Speaker 1: Executive Management approves those people, and obviously the most heinous,

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Speaker 1: most wanted people that the FBI has to feel like

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Speaker 1: giving them attention will help get them caught. They prioritize

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Speaker 1: it that way. The top ten people on the list

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Speaker 1: are not prioritized one through ten. It's just a ten

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Speaker 1: most to want it, So what you're kidding me?

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Speaker 4: So if you're if you whoever is like number one

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Speaker 4: on the top ten most wanted list, that's just a coincidence.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't mean they are literally the most wanted person.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mentioned to you guys off the air that

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Speaker 1: there's also a top ten terrorist wanted list, and I

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Speaker 1: guarantee you saw we've been a lot was number on

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Speaker 1: that list for a long time. Whether they numerate that

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Speaker 1: or not, I guarantee he was number one for a

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Speaker 1: long long time.

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Speaker 4: That's fascinating. I had no idea that they weren't in

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Speaker 4: rank order on the list. It's just ten. These are

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Speaker 4: the ten most wanted. Number one isn't any more of

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Speaker 4: the most wanted than ten.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me that when this came around

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Speaker 1: seventy five years ago, how different times were with technology

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Speaker 1: and information sharing and getting publicity out there super important.

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Speaker 1: I remember being a younger guy sitting at the post

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Speaker 1: office the top ten and stuff. Now with the internet

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Speaker 1: and technology and social media, I mean we could have

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Speaker 1: top thousand probably get those names out all the time.

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Speaker 1: So it's an interesting how it's changed over the years.

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Speaker 4: Oh, so you're saying it was it was created really

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Speaker 4: as a marketing piece to sit here and say, hey,

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Speaker 4: we need to get this information out there about these

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Speaker 4: bad guys and how these are the ones we want.

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Speaker 4: But obviously communication changed dramatically since then, and so yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the key things publicity, getting their name out, highlighting them.

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Speaker 1: Occasional you'll see that they'll update any with more, a

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Speaker 1: bigger bounty. I think recently they changed the minimum bounty

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Speaker 1: from fifty fifty thousand up to a million dollars each

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Speaker 1: on the on the criminal side, and those kind of

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Speaker 1: things draw attention, and that's what they want. They want

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Speaker 1: people to put their eyes on there and recognize these

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Speaker 1: people and share information.

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Speaker 3: Corey Grass is joining us. He's a former FBI special agent.

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Speaker 3: There was recently a story just a few weeks ago

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Speaker 3: that a fugitive was captured only seventy three minutes after

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Speaker 3: being added to the FBI's ten.

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Speaker 2: Most wanted fugitive list. How common is that?

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Speaker 3: I mean that that actually was a record seventy three minutes.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure this administration clearly seems to be putting a

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Speaker 1: focus on fugitives, manhunt things like that, apprehending criminals seventy

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Speaker 1: three minutes. Unheard of, unprecedented, And again I think I

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Speaker 1: met you guys off the year. I'm all for questioning

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Speaker 1: the government. I'm all for, you know, asking questions. But

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Speaker 1: at the White House on Monday with the President was

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Speaker 1: trash talking Iran with an Easter bunny on the stage.

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Speaker 1: It was an Eastern bunny on the stage next to him.

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Speaker 1: So it's probably not unheard of that somebody might get

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Speaker 1: placed on the list right before they get captured for

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Speaker 1: good notoriety.

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Speaker 3: So do you think that that was partially due to

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Speaker 3: for publicity, Like they knew they were zeroing in on him,

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Speaker 3: and so they said, hey, let's put him on the

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Speaker 3: list so that we can come out and say we

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Speaker 3: caught somebody on the list.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any inside information, but I don't believe

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Speaker 1: in coincidences either. That very coincidental that a guy is

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Speaker 1: the most wanted in the world, top ten wanted in

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Speaker 1: the world, and we couldn't find him in an hour

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Speaker 1: later we had them.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So as somebody who kind of was like on

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Speaker 4: the ground as an FBI special agent was was the

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Speaker 4: top ten FBI Top Town most Wanted list. Was that

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Speaker 4: something you ever thought about or is that really just

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Speaker 4: for the public, but the agents, you know, you really

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Speaker 4: don't need that information.

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Speaker 1: Well, you said kind of like an agent on the ground.

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Speaker 1: Somebody accused me recently of not being an agent. I've

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Speaker 1: been accused of not being a retired agent. They're questioning

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Speaker 1: my mindset and then calling me a liar. So thank

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Speaker 1: you Jeff for reinforcing that I was kind of like

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Speaker 1: an agent. You were my retirement check says I was,

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Speaker 1: So I appreciate that, you know. The Yeah, each office

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Speaker 1: has the top ten listed when you walk in, have

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Speaker 1: the wall of honor and martyrs and things like that,

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Speaker 1: and they do have the top ten there. But no

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Speaker 1: as a street level agent, at least in my divisions.

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Speaker 1: I was in in Miami, Indianapolis, different places. I never

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Speaker 1: ran across a lead, never got sent my way to

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Speaker 1: go FOLLO up on somebody. Again, it's pretty unique, very

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Speaker 1: unique case.

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Speaker 3: Corey Grass is with US former FBI special agent. So

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Speaker 3: this one that was caught in seventy three minutes, he

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Speaker 3: had been tracked as a fugitive for three years, and

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Speaker 3: I'm curious what are the different challenges when tracking a

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Speaker 3: known fugitives like that.

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Speaker 1: I don't know the specific details about him, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of times, I mean use a drug cartel as

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Speaker 1: an example. Look at their resources financially they have available

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Speaker 1: and the reasons they wouldn't want to stay hidden, and

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Speaker 1: they don't have the rules the government has. Same with terrorists.

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Speaker 1: So it's if they're wanting to be hidden and they

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Speaker 1: have the finances to change their appearance, change their cell phones,

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Speaker 1: use apps that hide where they are, have a network

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Speaker 1: of people to help hide them, threatened people that would

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Speaker 1: give them up. Makes it very challenging. Again, they're not

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Speaker 1: following rules. They're criminals, so we follow the rules chasing them,

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Speaker 1: and that makes us a step behind usually.

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Speaker 3: So you had mentioned that there's a most wanted fugitive list,

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Speaker 3: there's also a most Wanted Terrorist list.

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Speaker 2: A big difference between the two, clearly.

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Speaker 3: Is there a difference of importance placed on the different

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Speaker 3: lists or are they next to each other when you

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Speaker 3: walk in the lobby.

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Speaker 1: I'm fairly certain the If I would love to get

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Speaker 1: any of those top twenty people any time, obviously that'd

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Speaker 1: be huge. Of the millions of fugitives, those twenty would

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Speaker 1: be highly solid after and I don't think there's priority. Again,

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Speaker 1: if they had information that comes in on a terrorist,

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Speaker 1: I think they would love to chase them and catch them.

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Speaker 1: And if they have it on a bank robber or again,

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Speaker 1: bank robbers kind of antiquated thing. If you think about

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Speaker 1: the top ten back in nineteen fifty, it was probably

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Speaker 1: people like bank croppers. In these days, I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: we've had a bank rubber on that list in a

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Speaker 1: long long time.

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Speaker 2: So they had.

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Speaker 3: Recently made a change to the list and it's now

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Speaker 3: going to encl cyber criminals. Do you think that they

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Speaker 3: need to have just a separate list for that, so

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Speaker 3: they could have a fugitive, a terrorism, and then cyber criminal,

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Speaker 3: because right now it's all in one big soup.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think so. I think we get deluded

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Speaker 1: at that point if we started creating for each thing.

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Speaker 1: If a cyber criminal is big enough to make the

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Speaker 1: list or to affect that many people or that much commerce,

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Speaker 1: then it makes sense to me to put them on there.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know if I would do a separate list,

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Speaker 1: because again, it gets very diluted once you start doing

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Speaker 1: separate violations.

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Speaker 2: Right because you could have dozens of different lists then.

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Speaker 1: And the FBI is I mean, if you break it

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Speaker 1: down the simplest terms, The FBI is broken down to

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Speaker 1: the national security and criminal invest you know, major criminal stuff,

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Speaker 1: so it makes sense to have a list for each side.

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Speaker 1: They don't have a specific entirely. They have a division

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Speaker 1: that does cyber issues, but they don't have one half

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Speaker 1: the FBI doesn't work just cyber.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because you could put the cyber criminal on

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Speaker 2: both lists because it's.

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Speaker 1: Actually the one that went on the list was being

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Speaker 1: used to fund a terrorist group and somewhere in South

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Speaker 1: America that you sent me out, so it would be

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Speaker 1: cyber and tear related.

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Speaker 2: Right, they could qualify for both lists.

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Speaker 3: We've got Corey Grass, he's joining us. He's a former

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Speaker 3: FBI special agent. And you wanted to talk about this

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Speaker 3: other thing that came.

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Speaker 2: Out, and that was the fact that.

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Speaker 3: The rescue of the airmen was leaked and Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: has now threatened jail for somebody putting that operation in peril.

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Speaker 3: And you had texted me and you said, this makes

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Speaker 3: my blood boil. And I didn't ask you any questions

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Speaker 3: like which part which made you upset? Was it that

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Speaker 3: Trump said he wanted to put a journalist in jail?

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Speaker 3: Or was it the fact that it was leaked, So

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Speaker 3: I'm curious which part made.

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Speaker 1: You mad, the fact that it was leaked. Again. I'm

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Speaker 1: all for information sharing, I'm all for questioning our government,

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Speaker 1: but I also understand there has to be certain things

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Speaker 1: that are kept secret, and I personally don't see any

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Speaker 1: upside to sharing that information. There was no reason for anyone,

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Speaker 1: if it's a journalist or anybody else, a government employee,

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Speaker 1: military person, a FBI person by the way, anybody sharing

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Speaker 1: the information. There's no upside to that, and nothing's gained

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Speaker 1: except for saying I got it first and got it

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Speaker 1: out there. The downside is we put his life in

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Speaker 1: danger very much so, and then also the hundreds, if

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Speaker 1: not thousands of people that were supporting that mission to

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Speaker 1: try and catch him because we told the bad guys, hey,

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Speaker 1: we know he's there. You know he's there, so now

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Speaker 1: they can focus their attention on fighting us to try

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Speaker 1: and get him first.

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Speaker 4: You know, when we think about leaks, we always think

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Speaker 4: about it at the national level. As you worked at

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Speaker 4: the FBI, you know here in Central Indiana, did that

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Speaker 4: happen very often? How much was you know, kind of

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Speaker 4: information security question seriously or did you have issues where

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Speaker 4: people leaked links to the media. How much did you

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Speaker 4: deal with that in your time at the FBI.

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Speaker 1: I was trying to process that very quickly. How much

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Speaker 1: attention I want from my former employer when I answered

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Speaker 1: this question. So, I had suspicions very strongly about someone

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Speaker 1: and something that would happen on a regular basis, and

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Speaker 1: just that little light bulb was going off. We'd be

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Speaker 1: bringing fugues at six am. Hit the bad guys. We

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Speaker 1: do big sweeps, bringing the entire state of Indiana, or

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Speaker 1: other SWAT teams around the Midwest or the country or whatever,

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Speaker 1: how big the operation is. I always wondered how one

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Speaker 1: certain news person was always standing up in Castleton on

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Speaker 1: the berm in front of our office. I always wondered,

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Speaker 1: how when I'm bringing my future at six fifteen am,

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Speaker 1: how was that same person as was there. I think

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Speaker 1: I figured out later. I think I had it figured

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Speaker 1: it out again. I couldn't prove anything, but yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if it's the smallest police department by

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Speaker 1: the way, city water sanitation, I don't care who it is.

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Speaker 1: If people think they have good dirt and they want

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Speaker 1: to share it, they will, And that's I will say

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Speaker 1: this after dabbling in politics. Now, I took for granted

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Speaker 1: how air tight information is in the FBI. I just

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Speaker 1: I just assumed that was the norm being in politics

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Speaker 1: a little bit. As Jim can attest to Pain.

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Speaker 2: You went from one spectrum to the other.

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Speaker 4: Right exactly, from airtight to just the leaking sieve.

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Speaker 1: I was very naive about how that worked. And I

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Speaker 1: understand using information to your advantage, but it just feels

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Speaker 1: like in the world of politics, you can't I can't

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Speaker 1: tell Ji something right now. And then five minutes later

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Speaker 1: that person I talked about comes right back to me

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Speaker 1: and says, hey, Jim told me you just mentioned this.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, that's I really took for great Because

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Speaker 1: the FBI has some super sensitive classified information. Obviously I

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Speaker 1: mentioned you before that ghost murmur you're talking about earlier

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Speaker 1: in the show when I was driving up. Obviously fantastic technology.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying it was developed at Crane Naval Base,

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Speaker 1: but similar to that, I did a lot of work

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Speaker 1: at counterintelligence at Crane Naval Base. The information they are

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Speaker 1: developing there, the technology for the war fighter is insane.

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Speaker 1: In our backyard right down the road.

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Speaker 3: Here, you know, along those lines, how much trepidation do

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Speaker 3: you have coming in here talking to us, because unless

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Speaker 3: you're I guess wanting to get your security clearance back,

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Speaker 3: is it's okay, it doesn't matter to you or like.

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Speaker 1: In typical government fashion. I'm not sure I ever lost it.

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Speaker 1: I think it might hasn't expired yet I don't believe

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Speaker 1: to me, but I I haven't followed up on that. Again.

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Speaker 1: I did have some inquiries about coming back to join

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Speaker 1: the government last year twice, but I didn't take them

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Speaker 1: real seriously. So I'm generally not a social media kind

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Speaker 1: of guy. Until I retired, I didn't have any social

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Speaker 1: media to I retired, and now it helped me my

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Speaker 1: business sense and also things like this and politics. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's concerning. It's always concerning, But it was concerning when

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Speaker 1: I was in the Bureau and Al Qaeda was putting

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Speaker 1: on information to tell their followers to hunt down US

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Speaker 1: government officials, FBI military and slaughter their families by using

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Speaker 1: social media. That kind of stuff bothered me more so then.

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Speaker 3: But it is a fine line that you have to

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Speaker 3: walk between being transparent and let the American people know

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Speaker 3: what's going on, but also not giving away resources or operations.

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Speaker 1: Almost definitely, And that's it's the same thing when you're

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Speaker 1: work in source development. Human intelligence is why I worked

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Speaker 1: the end of my career, which is what I guarantee you,

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Speaker 1: The CIA, the military, any government agents was using to

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Speaker 1: try and find that down pilot in Iran was that

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Speaker 1: you're gathering intel, ghost murmur helps. But if that hadn't worked,

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Speaker 1: you're still trying to get local village people to tell

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Speaker 1: you where he's at, how they're protecting him. Hopefully they

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Speaker 1: do that stuff in advance. By the way, laid the

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Speaker 1: groundwork with will be in your country soon. If you

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Speaker 1: have a chance to help our government, we will help you.

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Speaker 1: So start thinking about those kinds of things. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: same thing when you're working with sources, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: drug source, a terrorist source, motorcycle gangs, it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: You can't trust them.

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Speaker 3: So what is the standard process for determining if something

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Speaker 3: is classified versus publicly accessible information?

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Speaker 2: Somebody tells you no classified.

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Speaker 1: I would say I was guilty of this as well,

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Speaker 1: but overclassifying, Like when I was working sensitive stuff, I

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Speaker 1: overclassified because I had classification authority. I think most agents do,

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Speaker 1: all agents do. But then it goes through your chin

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Speaker 1: of command, and they they could question why you did it.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of times I think I aired the

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Speaker 1: side of caution, which is probably not the best policy,

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Speaker 1: but I figured I'd rather err on that side than

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Speaker 1: the other side and let something be out.

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Speaker 3: And the reason that you were upset about the leaker

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Speaker 3: was because they were potentially putting lives in danger.

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Speaker 1: Particularly our people. But yes, again, I had information and

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Speaker 1: terrorism when I worked that for many years. That I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can get people to give up information that are

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Speaker 1: here in our country, visiting or living now, but you

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Speaker 1: can get people to give up information about their not

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Speaker 1: only their country, their military secrets. It's amazing what they'll share,

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Speaker 1: even their family. And I had I shared that with

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Speaker 1: somebody else outside of there, if i'd come home to

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Speaker 1: know what happened worth today? Honey, Oh well, let me

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Speaker 1: tell you. This guy's diving out his military and here's

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Speaker 1: what's going to happen next. And here's what I sent

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Speaker 1: somebody back to his military to take it over. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't it makes you feel good, you both, I was great,

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Speaker 1: I had a great day. On the flip side, it

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Speaker 1: ruins everything and then he turn it back against us

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Speaker 1: and gets people hurt.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and people will do it for money or to

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Speaker 3: leave the country.

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Speaker 2: They're currently in a lot of different reasons.

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Speaker 1: I always told new police officers don't always use logic.

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Speaker 1: You think there's no way somebody would tell you this

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Speaker 1: or act that way, or again, Hey I'll give you money,

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Speaker 1: no thanks, Hey i'll give you a authority to be here. No,

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Speaker 1: and then there's some weird thing in their minds. FBI

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Speaker 1: people have been arrested for that. I still can't figureut

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Speaker 1: a lot of the leakers, the major ones in the FBI,

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Speaker 1: what they did it for. It wasn't money, it wasn't retaliation.

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Speaker 1: Their CIA guys got in trouble in the past because

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Speaker 1: they turned into a spy because they were mad about

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Speaker 1: their office assignment. There's other people you just can't figure

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Speaker 1: out why they even did it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I you just don't know what motivates somebody.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't have to make sense. You just did it for

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Speaker 1: their reasons.

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Speaker 3: Yep, we appreciate you. Where can people find you?

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Speaker 1: The easiest place is on Facebook. Corey Grass C O

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Speaker 1: R O Y G R A S s C. Where

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Speaker 1: I do have a consulting company at apexdefend dot com.

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Speaker 3: All right, thank you, that is Corey Grass, former FBI

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Speaker 3: special agent, and you're listening to Casey and Jim.

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Speaker 2: It is ninety three w ib C