1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,480
Speaker 1: Casey. There is a new documentary out on Hulu about

2
00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,720
Speaker 1: the Delphi murders. I know you have watched it, three

3
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,040
Speaker 1: part docuseries. That's right by the way. It's Kenell and

4
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,920
Speaker 1: Casey showing Rob Casey's here. I have now watched it.

5
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,720
Speaker 1: I did in part because we have a fabulous guest

6
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,440
Speaker 1: with us who knows that case very well. He is

7
00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,640
Speaker 1: all over that that documentary and he is the former

8
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,000
Speaker 1: police superintendent for the state of Indiana. Doug Carter joins us. Now, Doug, Hello, Hey,

9
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 1: good morning to you. So have you seen the documentary?

10
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:31,720
Speaker 2: I did. I watched it over the weekend.

11
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,880
Speaker 1: Is it weird to watch a documentary on a case

12
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,479
Speaker 1: that you basically knew from start to finish? Like I

13
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,400
Speaker 1: think if somebody did a documentary or radio show or

14
00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,920
Speaker 1: our radio program, Like, what is that like to see

15
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,159
Speaker 1: a documentary? I'm sure you you just pick things apart

16
00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:50,920
Speaker 1: the whole time.

17
00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 2: Well, it was quite frankly, it was difficult.

18
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:53,840
Speaker 1: Rob.

19
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,320
Speaker 2: It was. It took me back in time almost nine

20
00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,160
Speaker 2: years ago, at least in February. That's what it will be.

21
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: Do you remember all the stuff well? Or is it

22
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,040
Speaker 1: where things jogging your memory?

23
00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,440
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, jogging my memory. There was so much to it.

24
00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,800
Speaker 2: There were just so much From the very beginning, I

25
00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 2: captivated little literally captivated the planet. I mean, they were

26
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 2: inquiry from all over the world, so it was it

27
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:17,919
Speaker 2: was quite an experience.

28
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,760
Speaker 1: All right. So I think one of the problems with

29
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 1: the Delphi case is that we didn't get to see

30
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,479
Speaker 1: what went on in the courtroom, and so we were

31
00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:35,520
Speaker 1: limited to the descriptions of the people who were there

32
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 1: a very select amount of media. Do you think that

33
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 1: was a major issue And do you think if there

34
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,400
Speaker 1: have been cameras in the courtroom people would have felt

35
00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:44,959
Speaker 1: differently about the trial?

36
00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,920
Speaker 2: I do, I do. I look back on that time, though, Robbit,

37
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 2: I think Judge gall was dealing with enormous an enormous

38
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,400
Speaker 2: amount of pressure to make sure that that Richard Allen's

39
00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 2: rights were protected, that the that the state was doing

40
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 2: the right thing, that the defense was going to do

41
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,360
Speaker 2: the right thing, all the while there's an enormous amount

42
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,960
Speaker 2: of noise around it, around the entire case. So I understand,

43
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,480
Speaker 2: I understood then why she made that decision to maintain

44
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 2: some civility and control of the courtroom. But I think

45
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 2: probably looking back now again Hindsight's twenty twenty that single

46
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,080
Speaker 2: camera in the courtroom probably would have told a different story,

47
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:27,040
Speaker 2: at least to the public.

48
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 1: What do you think, and you know this case as

49
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 1: well as just about anybody, what do you think was

50
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,560
Speaker 1: the biggest thing that didn't get relayed to the public

51
00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,080
Speaker 1: from that trial? What do you think if there had

52
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,840
Speaker 1: been cameras in the courtroom that the public didn't see

53
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,000
Speaker 1: or didn't get relayed to them by the media, that

54
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,000
Speaker 1: would have maybe changed some much great question.

55
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,800
Speaker 2: There was a It seems seemed to be that most

56
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,320
Speaker 2: of the people that were reporting about this clickcase had

57
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 2: a singular focus. It wasn't necessarily objective reporting. It was

58
00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,600
Speaker 2: and I don't know if it was intentional. I think

59
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,240
Speaker 2: with some it was, but.

60
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 1: Mean like they had an opinion on what happened.

61
00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,560
Speaker 2: They did, they formed an opinion, but they didn't talk

62
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,360
Speaker 2: about the other side. That's interesting, it really was. It

63
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,320
Speaker 2: was fascinating because I would sit and listen, and then

64
00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 2: I would watch the news later they were totally different.

65
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 2: It was totally totally different.

66
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 1: Based Okay, so you're saying based on what was going

67
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,440
Speaker 1: on in the courtroom and then the way it was

68
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,160
Speaker 1: being presented which that doesn't make sense because you got

69
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,079
Speaker 1: a day's worth of testimony and then you got these

70
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:31,920
Speaker 1: news guys that got to do their news hits or

71
00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 1: their stories or whatever in you know, at best five

72
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 1: to ten minutes, right.

73
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, And I'm not casting blame on them. It

74
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,280
Speaker 2: was a very difficult period of time for everybody involved.

75
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 2: I mean many of them were there all night long

76
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,320
Speaker 2: to get a seat in the courtroom. Yeah, so there

77
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,440
Speaker 2: was it was a magic balance there, and it was

78
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 2: out of balance a little bit.

79
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 3: I watched the docuseries and I went through Richard Allen

80
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,400
Speaker 3: was guilty, you know, he was innocent. No, he was guilty.

81
00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,440
Speaker 3: And there was one moment for me this sealed the deal.

82
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 3: And I can tell you what that is. But I

83
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,520
Speaker 3: want to know about your opinion the one thing that

84
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,920
Speaker 3: you hang your hat on that says, yeah, that's the bullet.

85
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,960
Speaker 1: Yeah all right, can you explain the bullet because even

86
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,200
Speaker 1: the expert on the docuent series was like, look, this

87
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,120
Speaker 1: isn't iron clad stuff. You need multiple people can give

88
00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 1: you multiple different opinions on it. You and I have

89
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 1: talked before about this offline. What about the bullets sealed

90
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:29,560
Speaker 1: it for you?

91
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 4: And let's be specific. You're talking about the bullet that

92
00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 4: was found.

93
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 2: At the crime scene. Yes, yes, it's obviously it was

94
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,200
Speaker 2: presented in the courtroom. So I'm not talking about anything

95
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,720
Speaker 2: I can't. But what I explained to people now is

96
00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,560
Speaker 2: if you found something in your room in your home

97
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,320
Speaker 2: where a crime was committed that belonged to a certain

98
00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,760
Speaker 2: individual that you didn't know, is it more likely than

99
00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 2: not that that person was in your room? Right? Yeah,

100
00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,360
Speaker 2: the answer is yes. I would think to most people,

101
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,080
Speaker 2: would that quarter be there, why would that dime be there?

102
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,000
Speaker 2: Why would that gun be there? Why would that bullet

103
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,360
Speaker 2: be there? And it was more likely than not his.

104
00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 2: So that was a big deal to me. And again

105
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,200
Speaker 2: I've never investigated a crime like this. Yeah, but I

106
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,120
Speaker 2: felt my responsibility was to protect those that were and

107
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,360
Speaker 2: let them do their job objectively. And that was a

108
00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,039
Speaker 2: really really big moment for me.

109
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,160
Speaker 1: Did you ever did you ever sway on this? Okay?

110
00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 1: I guess. First of all, let's go back because the

111
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,640
Speaker 1: documentary and they got three hours, right, so they can't

112
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 1: get to everything. But it's sort of like there's this

113
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,920
Speaker 1: giant time hop in the documentary to where now he's

114
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,440
Speaker 1: just a suspect, Like we just fast forward through basically

115
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,680
Speaker 1: years of stuff. Was he always a suspect? Was he

116
00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 1: always somebody that was being looked at? What put him

117
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,480
Speaker 1: back on a radar? I don't think that. I think

118
00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,360
Speaker 1: people still are confused about Well.

119
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 2: I think the documentary by Hulu did a really nice

120
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,720
Speaker 2: job of explaining how all that happened, because, as you know,

121
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 2: there was contact with Richard Allen early on, and as

122
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:11,480
Speaker 2: simplistic as this is, it was missed. It was just simply.

123
00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 4: Missed putting a file and getting a drawer.

124
00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,040
Speaker 2: And they did and they said their job.

125
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,400
Speaker 1: Theirs being Richard Allens, like, well, this guy was here

126
00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,119
Speaker 1: the whole time, and you know, so what you're basically

127
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 1: saying is, yeah, that was just a mistake. It was

128
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:26,719
Speaker 1: the logical was.

129
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 2: There's no other I'm not going to spin that into

130
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,640
Speaker 2: something that's not. That's just the reality. And I know

131
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 2: we took a lot of heat over this from you Rob.

132
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,359
Speaker 1: People. Now we talk like does he know all the things?

133
00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,719
Speaker 2: Yes, And that's one that's one of the reasons that

134
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 2: I felt like I had to be as involved as

135
00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,960
Speaker 2: I was, and and and my job was to take

136
00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,640
Speaker 2: the not that it was I'm not being disrespectful. Rob.

137
00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,440
Speaker 2: The noise everybody else is jo noise of coming, you know,

138
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,839
Speaker 2: of coming and everybody. But I understood it. I understood

139
00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: your position. I did it. I wish I could have

140
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 2: come on and yeah and calmed it all down, but

141
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,960
Speaker 2: I just couldn't do that at the time. I just

142
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,720
Speaker 2: couldn't do that. And and it was, it was. It

143
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:12,840
Speaker 2: was an amazing experience.

144
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 1: There's Doug Carter's I guess, former state police superintendent. We're

145
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,680
Speaker 1: talking about the Delphi murders. There's this very interesting new

146
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,840
Speaker 1: documentary on Hulu. Is there any has there ever been

147
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 1: any doubt in your mind that this is the guy?

148
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 2: No?

149
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:27,880
Speaker 1: Ever?

150
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 2: Well, once he was identified.

151
00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,320
Speaker 1: Right right right? Never, You've never waivered, never any not?

152
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:37,760
Speaker 1: Is there any Is there any truth to if the

153
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,080
Speaker 1: judge had allowed the because a lot of people feel

154
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 1: like they there was. The rulings were very one sided

155
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,560
Speaker 1: in favor of the prosecution. If they'd have allowed the

156
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,480
Speaker 1: defense to present the odinism stuff. Do you think the

157
00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,440
Speaker 1: jury's mind would have been changed or would have changed

158
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 1: more people in the public. Should the judges said, look,

159
00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,320
Speaker 1: this is such a big case, let's just err on

160
00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 1: the side of caution, let you have everything at your disposal.

161
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,720
Speaker 2: Well, what Judge Gould did and what I would do

162
00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,720
Speaker 2: really aren't comparable because I didn't sit in her seat.

163
00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 2: I think she did what she thought was right at

164
00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 2: the time. I think if if that whole odinism issue

165
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:11,640
Speaker 2: was presented, the outcome would have been to say.

166
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,280
Speaker 1: You don't think it would have swayed the jury at all.

167
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:15,640
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't.

168
00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,880
Speaker 3: You said you watched the docu series. What was your

169
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 3: impression of it, because for many people it was the

170
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 3: first time hearing from Richard Allen's wife.

171
00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:27,840
Speaker 2: Again, I thought they did a really nice job. I

172
00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,960
Speaker 2: thought it was I thought it was fair and balanced.

173
00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,559
Speaker 2: I thought they presented both sides. I found it very

174
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,720
Speaker 2: interesting that that Andrew bald When indicated after his first

175
00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,080
Speaker 2: meeting with Richard Allen that he was innocent. Remember he

176
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 2: said that after the very first meeting when he went outside.

177
00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:46,960
Speaker 2: And again I don't hate him for that. I mean,

178
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,400
Speaker 2: I think he tried to do what he tried to do,

179
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,240
Speaker 2: and he tried to do it with as much vigor

180
00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,680
Speaker 2: and passion and empathy and as he could. But we

181
00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,880
Speaker 2: couldn't jump to those conclusions like that, and we dang

182
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 2: sure didn't jump to those conclusions. So the defense was

183
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 2: able to get information out there in the public that

184
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 2: we were not able to respond to. And again I'm

185
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,120
Speaker 2: not complaining about that. I guess I kind of am,

186
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,840
Speaker 2: because the one hundred and thirty six page document that

187
00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:14,000
Speaker 2: was released early on was was full of mischaracterizations about

188
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,840
Speaker 2: the process and about impressions and what's factual and what's not,

189
00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,319
Speaker 2: and we couldn't respond to that.

190
00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they go in a little bit in the documentary.

191
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 2: They do, and there's a gag order at the time.

192
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,040
Speaker 1: What wester Fell or whatever his name was, you know,

193
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,720
Speaker 1: he's all over that that. He's like, well, I don't

194
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 1: get that back now, Like you know, right, my name

195
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,120
Speaker 1: is forever linked into this thing.

196
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,200
Speaker 2: Everybody that is mentioned was investigated. It was there terabytes

197
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,440
Speaker 2: of information. I think they talked about millions of pages

198
00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 2: of documents in the documentary.

199
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

200
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,560
Speaker 4: Was there anything missing from the documentary?

201
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,319
Speaker 2: Oh? I think the documentary could have been eight hours

202
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,959
Speaker 2: long or maybe ten hours long. But again, they found

203
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,079
Speaker 2: a real magic balance there, and I hope people watch it.

204
00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,560
Speaker 2: I do. I listened to you, to Casey. I listened

205
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,680
Speaker 2: to you that day last week, so I kind of

206
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,800
Speaker 2: had an idea of what your thought was about the bullet.

207
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was exactly what you said. That's what Oh

208
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 4: it was.

209
00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,760
Speaker 1: It was people breaking news. You're in, you're in on

210
00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:12,560
Speaker 1: the jury, got it right?

211
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:14,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I said that the day.

212
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,560
Speaker 1: Watching the let's talk about it.

213
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,600
Speaker 3: Was it was the bullet just like Doug Carter said,

214
00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 3: that's what's solidified.

215
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,040
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that guy Relford, who's here all the time. Yes,

216
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,360
Speaker 2: and I remember Guy Reliford. You might have hearved me

217
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,280
Speaker 2: to say this before, but it's really, really, really important.

218
00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,320
Speaker 2: No one really understands the jury, like the jury. Yeah,

219
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,319
Speaker 2: I sat in the jury box the day after or

220
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 2: the day of the guilty here the guilty verdict. They're

221
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,079
Speaker 2: the ones that see the courtroom. They see the state,

222
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 2: they see the defense, they see they they watched Richard

223
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:52,600
Speaker 2: Allen for seventeen days, a totally different perspective than everybody else. Right,

224
00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 2: we all have kind of even me, I had a

225
00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:59,520
Speaker 2: singular focus, right, and all your listeners did had that

226
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,199
Speaker 2: exact focused. So our system of justice says, if that

227
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,240
Speaker 2: this would be tried by jury of your peers, yeah,

228
00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 2: that happened. So either you agree with our system of

229
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,280
Speaker 2: justice or you don't as imperfect as it is.

230
00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,720
Speaker 1: Okay, let's take a break. Doug Carter is our guest,

231
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 1: former superintendent of the Indiana State Police. We're talking about

232
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 1: all things Delphi. This new documentary, three part documentary out

233
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,199
Speaker 1: on Hulu. We're getting Doug's perspective on the Delphi murder

234
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:38,679
Speaker 1: investigation and trial. It's Kenill Casey Show ninety three WIBCNE.

235
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,120
Speaker 1: It's Kenel Casey Show on Robin Casey.

236
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 5: Here, our guest is our former stately superintendent Doug Carter.

237
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,760
Speaker 5: There is a new documentary out on Hulu, three part

238
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,839
Speaker 5: documentary on the Delphi murders. Doug has been kind enough

239
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,480
Speaker 5: to come in obviously say, nobody knows this investigation, perhaps

240
00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,199
Speaker 5: better than Doug Carter. Doug has been kind enough to

241
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,920
Speaker 5: give us some of his insights into the investmentation, into

242
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,040
Speaker 5: the trial. So let's get back to Richard Allen, the

243
00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 5: convicted murderer. One of the things that people will say

244
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,400
Speaker 5: is this guy because the confessions were such a major

245
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,600
Speaker 5: part and this guy was basically tortured in prison, he

246
00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 5: wasn't himself. Was he treated fairly in prison? Should something

247
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,440
Speaker 5: have been done differently?

248
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,040
Speaker 1: And is there a legitimate case to say, hey, the

249
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,200
Speaker 1: guy was clearly going through a lot of stuff. You

250
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,720
Speaker 1: can't take a lot of weight in what he said

251
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:26,200
Speaker 1: in prison.

252
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:35,160
Speaker 2: Well, remember this the probable cause beyond a reasonable doubt.

253
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 2: It can be built over time. Yeah, it's not one

254
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,000
Speaker 2: thing that he said, it's not one event that he talked.

255
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:42,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

256
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,640
Speaker 2: I think the ward and I don't remember his name

257
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,240
Speaker 2: in the in the in the series, talked about how

258
00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,360
Speaker 2: he was treated there. I don't think DOC has ever

259
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,920
Speaker 2: had an inmate quite like this before, particularly a pre

260
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 2: adjudicated inmate.

261
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,760
Speaker 1: And for those who may not know what you just said,

262
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,560
Speaker 1: that's for someone who has not been convicted, that's right, Yeah,

263
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,600
Speaker 1: that is going to trial, that's right. Yeah.

264
00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,400
Speaker 2: I had a detective that listened to every single com

265
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,160
Speaker 2: voice or every single phone conversation that Richard Allen had

266
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 2: outside of the prison system, every single one, for years.

267
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 2: That was his job. And again, those admissions came over time.

268
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,240
Speaker 1: So it wasn't that every you're saying, And that's interesting

269
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,319
Speaker 1: you're saying, it wasn't every day that he was some

270
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:29,680
Speaker 1: rambling incoherent madness.

271
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,880
Speaker 2: Oh no, not at all, No, not at all, not

272
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:34,280
Speaker 2: at all.

273
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,960
Speaker 1: I think the wife is do you think the wife

274
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,400
Speaker 1: is just naive? Do you think I don't know? Rob?

275
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,079
Speaker 2: You know Cathy is, she's a very kind person. She's

276
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,160
Speaker 2: she has never caused any problem for anybody. Yeah, and

277
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,160
Speaker 2: there's some empathy for her. I have empathy for her

278
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,439
Speaker 2: because remember I said in twenty nineteen, the killer could

279
00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,560
Speaker 2: be in this room.

280
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you said that, you didn't know it was

281
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 1: him though, right, Gosh no, because people thought that. That

282
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,120
Speaker 1: is very and that's of course the famous one of

283
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,199
Speaker 1: the most famous parts of this whole investigation is your

284
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 1: your press conference that day. You didn't know it was

285
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,400
Speaker 1: him at that point.

286
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,120
Speaker 2: Rob, I walked across that bridge a couple of times.

287
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,160
Speaker 2: There is no way it was anybody that hadn't been

288
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:20,680
Speaker 2: there before.

289
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

290
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 2: Now the bridge is totally different. And I was up

291
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:25,960
Speaker 2: there now long ago, and I periodically and then that area.

292
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,720
Speaker 2: I just go up there and walk that bridge. But

293
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,040
Speaker 2: it's very different now than it.

294
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:30,760
Speaker 1: Was creepy to do, like for you to go up

295
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:31,480
Speaker 1: and just wow.

296
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,760
Speaker 2: It's actually pretty therapeutic again, really, yeah, tell me about that.

297
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,000
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be like a psychiatrist here, but

298
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,400
Speaker 1: tell me about that. People will find that fascinating.

299
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've I've lost track of the number of times

300
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 2: I was up there over since February of twenty seventeen,

301
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 2: and there's there's a certain place up there that that

302
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 2: frankly i'd like to I like to go up and

303
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,680
Speaker 2: sit and and just think about what occurred to those

304
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,480
Speaker 2: two little girls that day and how it was literally

305
00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,160
Speaker 2: captivated the world. And I got to say, there were

306
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 2: there were times throughout this that eight year period that

307
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,280
Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself, I'm going to fail. I'm

308
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,120
Speaker 2: going to fail those two little girls in this community

309
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 2: and all these people that have so much there's so

310
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,160
Speaker 2: much relying on this, and not just me personally, but

311
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,040
Speaker 2: I got to watch people just give their entire lives

312
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,160
Speaker 2: to something other than themselves, and that was Abby and Libby,

313
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,880
Speaker 2: and it was so amazing to watch. So to walk

314
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 2: where they walked is very therapeutic to me.

315
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,200
Speaker 1: Case, I have two questions I want to make sure

316
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,080
Speaker 1: we get before read along those lines.

317
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 3: You've been doing this for quite a long time. Was

318
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 3: this the most pressure you ever felt in your career?

319
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,360
Speaker 2: Yes, Carroll County, Indiana was the most. The most pressure.

320
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,760
Speaker 2: The floor fires haunt me to this day and that's

321
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,960
Speaker 2: that's that. That's one small community has really really, really

322
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 2: enveloped my career, at least in my own mind.

323
00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 1: Okay, two things I want to make sure we get

324
00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,680
Speaker 1: to it. One is do you believe firmly Alan acted alone?

325
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,280
Speaker 1: Have you ever thought there was somebody else involved with him?

326
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's a good question right now that that

327
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 2: information is not out there that that someone else did.

328
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 2: But as with any other capital crime, any other murder investigation,

329
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:18,960
Speaker 2: they never close. So you know, the the truth will

330
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,280
Speaker 2: set you free. I think the truth comes out over

331
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 2: time and we'll see. I hope one data sit down

332
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,080
Speaker 2: with Richard Allen. I know I can't do that right

333
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 2: now because of the appeal, and I don't blame him

334
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 2: for the appeal.

335
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:30,480
Speaker 1: You would go meet with him.

336
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,160
Speaker 2: I want to go meet with him, I do, but

337
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,000
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't even reach out. I know I can't.

338
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 4: Would you ask what would you say to him?

339
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,200
Speaker 2: Well, I have lots of questions I would ask him.

340
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,280
Speaker 1: That would be like, like, not that there's anything lighthearted

341
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:50,080
Speaker 1: about any of this, but from a pure consumption by

342
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,560
Speaker 1: the public, I mean you would you would to put

343
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 1: that on That would be the most fascinating conversation ever.

344
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 1: Even see you guys sit in a room and talk with.

345
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 2: Each other that one day we can and he didn't

346
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 2: have to say one word to me, and I have

347
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,720
Speaker 2: I would have plenty to say to him, And I

348
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 2: think I could be that voice for a lot of

349
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 2: people because I have. I would really like to sit

350
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 2: with him. I would really like to sit with Kathy

351
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 2: and talk about our perspectives in the last you know,

352
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 2: nearly a decade.

353
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,320
Speaker 1: Okay, And obviously I don't want you to go in

354
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,880
Speaker 1: too much detail on this, but I think people will

355
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 1: be fascinating to get your perspective on how this actually occurred,

356
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,240
Speaker 1: because it's one guy with two girls, and how you

357
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,840
Speaker 1: think in a radio friendly format, you think that he

358
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 1: was able to pull this off?

359
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,640
Speaker 2: Evil lives amongst us, Rob and I do. I think

360
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,440
Speaker 2: that he do. But I personally think that he had

361
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:51,560
Speaker 2: he was going to do a B.

362
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,600
Speaker 1: C, D and E. But you don't think he was

363
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 1: plotting that out that day when he.

364
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,240
Speaker 2: Went plotting something out?

365
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,919
Speaker 1: But I'm not sure you think when he went that

366
00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 1: day he was It was not a spur of the

367
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 1: moment sort of thing.

368
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,120
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, I don't think so I don't

369
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 2: think so.

370
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,600
Speaker 1: Do you. Okay, I don't mean to veer off this.

371
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 1: I think people are gonna find this very interesting, Like

372
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,639
Speaker 1: because he doesn't have a criminal history, so you think

373
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 1: there's always just like this thing inside of him and

374
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:16,760
Speaker 1: it just snapped that day.

375
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 2: I do.

376
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:25,159
Speaker 4: Do you feel like Kathy was manipulated their entire marriage?

377
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, because they ever talked to her. I

378
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,000
Speaker 2: don't know, but it does. It does seem unusual. They

379
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,120
Speaker 2: talked about the blue jacket in the documentary. They talked

380
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 2: about the blue jeans. In the documentary, Richard Allen talked

381
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,800
Speaker 2: about the blue blue jacket car jacket he had when

382
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 2: he said that it gave me chills.

383
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,320
Speaker 1: They did that? Had I assume you had obviously seen

384
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,359
Speaker 1: all that before. I mean that, Oh yeah, that was fast.

385
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:46,440
Speaker 1: That was fascinating.

386
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 4: Yeh.

387
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 1: Where he basically stooge done himself, which is amazing, by

388
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,760
Speaker 1: the way, when he went and agreed to talk to

389
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:59,200
Speaker 1: the investigators without an attorney or you guys just like, oh,

390
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 1: I mean, what was your I cannot.

391
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,879
Speaker 2: No, not really surprised by that, No, not really.

392
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: I mean, if you did it, wouldn't you be like,

393
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,160
Speaker 1: oh heck, no, I'm getting, you know, the best attorney

394
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 1: known to man, and and you.

395
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 2: Know, look at it from the different perspective. I'm gonna

396
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,639
Speaker 2: I'm gonna sit somewhere neutral. If I don't want an attorney,

397
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 2: they're gonna assume that I didn't do this.

398
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,879
Speaker 1: In the So in the mind of the criminal, they

399
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 1: always think they can outsmart the cops. Is that the deal? Oh?

400
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 2: I think that's for general generally that's accurate rule.

401
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, how often does that happen? A little life

402
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 1: advice from state former State Police of verintended Dug Carter.

403
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:32,959
Speaker 1: How many of the criminals out smart the cops?

404
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 2: Not very often.

405
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 4: It's got to be that element of narcissism. Yeah, that

406
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,680
Speaker 4: things they can get away with the evil. But also

407
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,840
Speaker 4: he worked.

408
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 2: At the CVS in downtown Delphi. Yeah, there probably wasn't

409
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 2: a person in Delphi that didn't have some level of

410
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 2: interaction with you. So those are the kinds of things

411
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 2: I'd love to talk with him.

412
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 1: So before I let you go get out of here

413
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 1: with this, because obviously there are people like me who

414
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,679
Speaker 1: still have doubts. Soough since I've talked to you, and

415
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: and one of the things I appreciate you is how

416
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,640
Speaker 1: forthcoming you've been about this. You said, look, we made

417
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,000
Speaker 1: the mistakes, We screwed this up. There should have been

418
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: cameras in the courtroom. You're not absolute on Oh this

419
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 1: was so easy and so obvious.

420
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:11,879
Speaker 2: But you know, Rob, one of the things that's important.

421
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 2: I think also, you just struck a bit of a

422
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 2: chord with me. It's easy for the defense to talk

423
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 2: about what we did wrong. Yeah, and they did again.

424
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 2: I don't blame Baldwin and Rossie for doing that, but

425
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 2: this was a case of lifetime of a lifetime. How

426
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,639
Speaker 2: we manage that kind of information then versus now is

427
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 2: totally different.

428
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,879
Speaker 1: Really, Oh absolutely changes because of this.

429
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,600
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, we understood what our deltas are.

430
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

431
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 2: So fortunately the FBI in the Orion system, which isn't

432
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 2: available anymore, they were able to bring that to us,

433
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 2: to be able to collate and keep all the information

434
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,239
Speaker 2: that we got. Was it perfect, No, But we were

435
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 2: receiving thousands of tips a day for a while. So anyway, Yeah,

436
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 2: you know, those are the kinds of things that they

437
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,959
Speaker 2: can talk about them all they want. I'll debate them

438
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 2: anytime they want to. This is about human beings. This

439
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 2: is not about intention mistakes and doing things intentionally wrong.

440
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 3: So you were in the documentary, but it was news clips.

441
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 3: Did the producers approach you to be on camera?

442
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, they reached out to both Jerry Holman and I

443
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: and we did they because they they wanted to restrict

444
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 2: what we could say after the documentary, so I guess

445
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 2: they wanted to own it, and again that's just all

446
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 2: part of it and we so we declined. But they

447
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 2: did a really nice job, even though they didn't weren't

448
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,239
Speaker 2: able to interview us like they like like they wanted to.

449
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 2: But Holman, I mean, Jerry Holman is just the guy's

450
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 2: just a star.

451
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,159
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Man. Well, you know, I just appreciate you

452
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: being with us today. Obviously, this is a case that

453
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 1: changed the state. It shouldn't be forgotten how it and

454
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: I thought the documented a good job of capturing how

455
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: those families were impacted. I think they sometimes get lost

456
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: in this when there's media covers that there's these families

457
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 1: that lost these two little girls. And I just appreciate

458
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: you coming in and shedding some light on this because

459
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 1: it will always captivate the public. You know, fifty years

460
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: from now, people will still be talking about the Delphi case,

461
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 1: and I think that's why it's great to get someone

462
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 1: like you. The record will now be preserved in interviews

463
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: like this on things that the public maybe didn't see

464
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: or know about and.

465
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 2: Those that are listening. I also that Florifire is a

466
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 2: really big deal and that's still unfinished. Yeah, so even

467
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: while I'm not still there, those detectives are. And if

468
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: you know some say something.

469
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 4: Please all right. It is Kendilly Casey. It's ninety three

470
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 4: WYBC