1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: Line from vall Heartland and the Crossroads of America. 2 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 2: It's Tony Cats today. 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: I have no issue with Maduro being removed from power, 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: absolutely none. This entire move done by the US military, 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: we can argue was unbelievably successful and well planned, well 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: thought out, well prepared. I think that is a very 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: very defensible thing, that oil would now be sold and 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: benefiting the Venezuelan people. 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: I'm also okay with taking a look at the. 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: Oil that's been sanctioned and how we keep it out 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: of the hands of the Russians and the Chinese. 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 2: I'm down with that. 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: And of course this very idea of a rethink, if 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: not just a re implementation of the Monroe Doctrine and 15 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: the protection of the United States and of the Western hemisphere. 16 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: Is this what our new world requires? 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: These, I think are good things, smart things, and worthy things. 18 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: Tony Kats, Tony Kats today, Good to be here, Good 19 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: to be with you. But how does one think that 20 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: there is success in Venezuela when Delsea Rodriguez is still there, 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: that's Maduro's vice president. Everybody else is still in place, 22 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: And is the argument being made from the administration that 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: they're going to stay Noah Rofman joins me. Right now, 24 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: you know his work from National Review, National Review dot com. 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: His latest piece at National Review. Trump's approach to Venezuela 26 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: lives down to the left's caricature of the Iraq War, 27 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: which is which is a perfectly Noah Rothman thing to 28 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: write now, because it's it's it's not only you saying 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: we're handling something wrong, but we all we in your view, 30 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: we all misunderstood what happened in the Iraq War, and 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: there was more good there than not. 32 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: It's the caricature that we're fighting. 33 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: Now. You're gonna get disagreement, maybe on both parts. But 34 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: let's start where we start. The taking out of Madureau 35 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: as it was done by the United States a military 36 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: your thoughts on that mission, and it's quote unquote success. 37 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 3: Incredibly successful, I mean not just successful, tactically successful, strategically 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 3: certainly warranted literally by an American court. Madurea went through 39 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: the justice system, was sought by the US justice system. 40 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 3: Could not be a more legitimate exercise of law enforcement. 41 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: The legality of the strikes is a little bit of 42 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: a self looking ice cream cone. In the Trump administration's estimation, 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: they were serving this warrant. Therefore, those who were serving 44 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: the warrant were under threat. Therefore offensive operations had to 45 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 3: be taken. Therefore those offensive operations were defensive in nature. 46 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 3: It's a theory, but it's not one that I think 47 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 3: would hold up under any scrutiny. But that doesn't mean 48 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 3: I don't like the results. I certainly think that the 49 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: operation itself was justified, even though the regime is in place. 50 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 3: It communicated to our adversaries abroad Russia, China, Iran, Cube, 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 3: et cetera, the efficacy of US special forces in combination 52 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 3: with combined arms and our air assets. It was a 53 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: spectacularly successful operation. Even China's you know, propaganda's mouthpeet the 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: Global Times, you know, and its piece covering this was said, oh, 55 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 3: this is horrible as the violation of international law, but 56 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 3: subtextually it read. 57 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 4: You gotta hand it to them. It was a heck 58 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 4: of an operation. 59 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 3: So it's the sort of thing that conveys to our 60 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 3: adversaries that we are a potent force not to be 61 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 3: messed with, contrary to a lot of the dower conversations 62 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 3: inside the United States. 63 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: And I think that matters. 64 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: I think that that is that is a piece of 65 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: this that is left out when when the Israelis hit 66 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: has blowed with the pag or attack. Certainly for the 67 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: Israelis one could argue, you never want to let your 68 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: adversary know what exactly are capable of what it is 69 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: that you can do. And then the other side of it, 70 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, look at what the Israelis just did here. 71 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: It kind of sets hey, maybe I don't want to 72 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: mess with them? 73 00:03:58,400 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: Is there in your view? 74 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: Was a little bit or a lot of bit of 75 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,119 Speaker 1: that that this was we really can get anywhere, anytime, 76 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: and you're not even going to see us coming. 77 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 3: A lot of it not just our capabilities when it 78 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 3: comes to hard power assets, traditional hard power assets things 79 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: that blow stuff up, but our cyber elements were at 80 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: play here. We shut off the electricity in Venezuela via 81 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 3: cyber operations in ways that we're pretty impressive, and our 82 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 3: clandestine assets, I think was actually something that also communicated 83 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 3: to our adversaries a very important message. There's been a 84 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 3: lot of reporting inside the United States that while American 85 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 3: signals intelligence intercepts are bar none the world standard, we 86 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 3: can intercept communications electronically wherever and anywhere we want. And 87 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: a lot of our allies depend on our signals intercepts capabilities, 88 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 3: but our human intelligence capabilities, our capacity to develop clandestine assets, 89 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 3: flit assets on the ground in places where we need 90 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: human intelligence, that has been in doubt for some time. 91 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 3: We have been can We are considered an unreliable friend 92 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 3: for many reasons that are perfectly valid. But we have 93 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 3: information that's publicly reported now that we were developing intelligence 94 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 3: sources close to, indeed inside Cuban intelligence which had surrounded 95 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 3: Madurea with his security team and amateur security team and 96 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 3: generally penetrated the people very as close as possible to 97 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 3: the regime here, which sends a signal to other anti 98 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 3: American regimes out there that we can get close to 99 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 3: you too. 100 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 4: All very very valuable. 101 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 3: However, good and how we get to the however, Yeah, 102 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: there's this very bizarre conspiracy of shared interests abroad between 103 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: Trump's critics and the president's allies and the president himself, 104 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: all of whom are devoted to calling this operation a 105 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 3: regime change operation. 106 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 4: It was not. 107 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: And that's what we need to get into. Talking to 108 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: Noah Roffman of National Review, and this is the point 109 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: of your piece, and I had discussed this on my 110 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: morning show, and I bring it here. If you still 111 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: have Delsea Rodriguez, the vice president, now running the show, 112 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: if you still have the rest of the Madua regime 113 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: in place, it's just like Nicholas Maduro is on some 114 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: kind of extended vacation, but he's still the CEO. I mean, 115 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: that's even we're taking the oil, we're selling the oil. 116 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,239 Speaker 1: We're going to give the profits part of the prophets, 117 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: if not half the profits of not more than that 118 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: to the Venezuelans. Well, it only matters if the Venezuelan 119 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: people could stop eating pigeons and actually. 120 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: Turn on the lights in their house. 121 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a there's a real disconnect between this unbelievable 122 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: operation and the result that one would think, or at 123 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: least the Venezuelan people, from their celebration would think, which 124 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: is the better day? 125 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: Is ahead? Trump saying it's not. This is just we 126 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: just got rid of a guy. 127 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, my wife, you know, just as a personal note, 128 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: my wife's dear friend is a Venezuelan ex pat. She 129 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: grew up with her and her mother was, you know, 130 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: in the very celebratory mood, was making tentative plans to 131 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 3: move back, and I had to say, why the regime 132 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 3: is in place. Nothing has changed. This was never the 133 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 3: Nicholas Maduro regime. It was the Hugo Chavez regime, establishing 134 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety nine, survived the two thousand and two 135 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: coup in which it purged all dissenting elements and really 136 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 3: established the socialist despotism that it became. Nicholas Maduro was 137 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: like Brezhnev. He was in the right place at the 138 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: right time when Hugo Chavez died in twenty thirteen. He 139 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: was a bus driver, He was a union thug. He 140 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: was not never the power behind this regime. He was 141 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: an avatar of it. And the regime, as you said, 142 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 3: is largely in place. Delza Rodriguez, one of Maduro's deputies, 143 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: has blood on her hands, as implicated in the regime's 144 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 3: worst crimes. More than that, the ostado called Cabello, who 145 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: was in charge of the military and in political apparatus. 146 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: The intelligence apparatus is still in place. The regime is 147 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: still as dependent as ever on the militias, the collectivos, 148 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: as well as the drug cartels for domestic legitimacy. It 149 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: is as dependent as ever on anti American powers abroad 150 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 3: for support overseas Iran, Cuba, Russia, China. It hasn't changed 151 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: its character in any appreciable way, save for the fact 152 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 3: that it's surrendered to the United States one tanker which 153 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: has thirty to fifty I think, yeah, billion million barres 154 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 3: of crude sour crude, which is by no means the 155 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 3: highest quighest quality, and that's approximately what the United States 156 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: produces domestically in about three days of production. And they've 157 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 3: released a couple of political prisoners five last I checked, 158 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 3: which is great, which is good, and the Trump administration 159 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 3: serves credit for leaning on Karakas to do that. But 160 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 3: that's just a drop in the barrel, and it's not 161 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 3: a chape and change in the character of the regime. 162 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 3: It's a sap with a gun pointed to their head again, 163 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 3: which is great. And the administration's work is not over. 164 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 3: It hasn't been ongoing and attempts to seize these, for example, 165 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 3: the ghost fleet ships that are transporting illicit weapons and 166 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 3: oil to and from Russia and Iran. That's all valuable, 167 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 3: but it does it does demonstrate why the venezhuonlands are 168 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 3: correct in public reports to temper their enthusiasm, their initial 169 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: enthusiasm for what they believed because everybody was telling them 170 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 3: that it was regime change. When it turns out that 171 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 3: it's not that we could just be in the Trump administrations. 172 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 3: Who knows where the Trump administration is going with this. 173 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,599 Speaker 3: Their statements are so conflicting. I don't think they have 174 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 3: a strategy. So let's could end up with something akin 175 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 3: to a Turkey or a Saudi Arabian the Western Hemisphere 176 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 3: and authoritarian regime that we can nevertheless work with. 177 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: So first, there's a piece in the Wall Street Journal 178 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: about the ghost ships and how this oil is maneuvered. 179 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: It's a very interesting piece, is a kind of a 180 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: primer for exactly what's going on and how many of 181 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: these ships that are out there, and you can find 182 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: that at Tony Kats dot com. 183 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: But it isn't regime change. 184 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: And so now you have these two very unique conversations, 185 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: which is the no More Forever Wars Donald Trump and 186 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: the donro doctrine Trump and the Monroe doctrine. The Western 187 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: Hemisphere belongs to us, and we're going to protect it. 188 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: Right now, as you have now laid this out, these 189 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: two things cannot exist. A George divided against itself cannot stand, 190 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: said Seinfeld. 191 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: That's but I'm not I don't think I'm wrong. 192 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: I think I'm staring at this properly. These two things 193 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: are in conflict. What wins out, what should win that? 194 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 3: Well, it's just not the nineteenth century anymore. There's no 195 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 3: way for you to execute the kind of hemispheric operation 196 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 3: in which you're attempting to area deny our adversaries abroad 197 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 3: without conflicting conflicting with our adversaries abroad in their hemisphere, 198 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 3: in part because the United States is positioned all over 199 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: the planet Earth and has been since World War Two, 200 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: and rolling that back is not something that you can 201 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 3: simply decree. And if you were to try to actually 202 00:10:54,040 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: actively withdraw retrench from our interests abroad, you would create 203 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 3: a lot more chaos than we've seen so far because 204 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: they're not actually doing that. 205 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 4: They talk a big game, but they're not actually doing that. 206 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 3: And to get to the peace about Iraq, the extent 207 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 3: to which the President seems inclined, in my view, to 208 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 3: live down to the left smiths about the Iraq War, 209 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 3: it's because he talks about this again sort of in 210 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 3: a delusional way as though we've executed regime change. He says, 211 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 3: we're there, We're going to run the country. We are 212 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 3: in charge now. These are quotes that he has said. 213 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 3: And in New York Times he was asked how long 214 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 3: we are going to be the political overlords of Venezuela, 215 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: and he says pretty much indefinitely for a very long time, 216 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 3: which is just an outlook divorced from reality, but it 217 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 3: does convey an element of imperialism, a semi colonialist enterprise 218 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 3: that he's trying to incept here, and it is entirely 219 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: for in his estimation, commercial benefits that we are going 220 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 3: to take the oil, he says this very plainly, will 221 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 3: take the commodities that Venezuela very has mismanaged. It used 222 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: to produce more than two thirds the amount of oil 223 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 3: that it produces today. Its oil industry essentially exists to 224 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: keep the regime in a stasis level state of comfort, 225 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 3: not for the Venezuelan people, and it would take a 226 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: lot to redevelop that industry. But it's sort of like 227 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 3: it kind of sounds exactly like how the left characterized 228 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 3: the Iraq War, which was always wrong. 229 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 4: The left characterization of. 230 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 3: The Iraq war was that it was a war for oil, 231 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: blood for oil, it was an imperialist, colonialist enterprise, and 232 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 3: it was never those things. 233 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 4: It was just the opposite of those things. 234 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 3: In fact, the Bush administration was so self conscious over 235 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 3: the administrator or his left wing critics attacks on that 236 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 3: enterprise that it actually kind of hindered the operation because 237 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 3: he would play into that. We didn't follow the Powell 238 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 3: doctrine deploying overwhelming force because the Bush administration was afraid 239 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 3: that the footprint would look so large that it would 240 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: look like an imperialist enterprise. He got a lot of 241 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,599 Speaker 3: criticism for pushing to have national elections in Iraq in 242 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 3: January two thousand and five. It was not ready. The 243 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: insurgency was already blooming. Fallujah had just fallen. So he 244 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 3: was getting a ton of criticism for that. But the 245 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: Bush administration forged ahead. Why because he wanted to assuage 246 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: those who were concerned that the United States was running 247 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 3: Iraq like it was a sattrap and Paul Bremmers. In 248 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 3: two September two thousand and three, Paul Bremmer's Occupational Authority 249 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 3: privatized the Soviet style oil industry in Iraq, not so 250 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 3: that we could pilfer it and take the proceeds so 251 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 3: that Iraq could stand up its own oil industry and 252 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 3: fund of government, which by two thousand and five funded 253 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: the government to the tune of ninety four percent. It 254 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: was basically the sole revenue source on which the Iraq 255 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 3: regime managed to survive. The Iraqi government survived so and 256 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: by the way, I linked to this piece, which is 257 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: very funny and Jacob Inns as Far Left magazine. So 258 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: by the time it was clear that the United States 259 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 3: was not actually pilfering Iraqi oil this piece rather than 260 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 3: confront its own misleading priors, A well, it's clear that 261 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 3: this was a war for oil. 262 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 4: But Bush just messed it up. Not that I was 263 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 4: wrong all along, right. 264 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 3: But that Bush probably just screwed it up, like he 265 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: screws up everything. 266 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: By the way, great words satrap, which is about having 267 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: like a subordinate ruler. I mean, you're the sometimes I 268 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: just enjoy your vocabulary. Talking to Noah Rothman from National 269 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: Review before I let you go. So, what we're looking 270 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: at from Trump's as a guy who sees things as 271 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: transactional in almost all regards, as long as we can 272 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: get the oil Whatever happens there, happens there. As long 273 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: as we can keep China and Russia out, that's enough 274 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: a Monroe doctrine for us. 275 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: We don't need to do anything else. 276 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: The problem there is that it doesn't satisfy I think 277 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: in American populace that would say out loud. 278 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: Wait, we're gonna leave that regime in control. 279 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it also sacrifices our interests. I mean, if you can't. 280 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: There's sort of a Turing test thing here. The international 281 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: environment is anarchic hard power. Military power is what moves 282 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: the wheels of history. Granted, I've been saying that since 283 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: I've been talking to about international affairs, since I was 284 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 3: a graduate student, arguing with people about the nature of 285 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: soft power. Soft power, diplomatic power, international institutions are really 286 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 3: fictions that are buttressed by hard power. 287 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 4: This has been my position forever. 288 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 3: But I also understand that soft power exists, and if 289 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 3: you can't tell me what soft power is and what 290 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 3: it does or what it's supposed to do, I don't 291 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 3: trust you to actually navigate the environment. And soft power 292 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 3: does matter insofar as it contributes to the desire of 293 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 3: people who are living in captive nations to yearn for freedom, 294 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 3: to celebrate liberty an individual and individual agency. 295 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 4: And that's a story. 296 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: And the United States is predicated on the notion that 297 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 3: power is justly derived from the consent of the governed, 298 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 3: and that does provide us with some benefits. And the 299 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 3: President himself acknowledges that from time to time, as we 300 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: have seen in Iran, the President has adopted some thing 301 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 3: like a neo con position on steroids. When it comes 302 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: to the Iranian protests, he is now saying, and has 303 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: and seems really inclined to follow through with it, that 304 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 3: if the Iranian regime were to violently suppress the demonstrations 305 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 3: that are represent at this point in existential threat to 306 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 3: the stability of that regime, that he would intervene in 307 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: a humanitarian way on their behalf. I don't think there's 308 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: a lot of neocons back in the even in two 309 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 3: thousand and five who would have agreed with that position. 310 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 3: It's essentially it's akin to a Samantha Power right to 311 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: protect doctrine, which would. 312 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 4: Get the UNITEDS to which I oppose because it would 313 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 4: get the. 314 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 3: United States involved in conflicts where it didn't have any 315 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 3: material or strategic interests. But we certainly do have material 316 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 3: and strategic interests in Iran, in the Middle East in particular. 317 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: This is the most evil regime on the planet Earth 318 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 3: in my view. It has fueled conflicts for the better 319 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: part of a half century. It has killed and targeted 320 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: Americans on American soil. It's an enemy of the United States, 321 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 3: and the day that it has gone will be a 322 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 3: better day for the United States and the world. Great 323 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: like that, But the administration and the President doesn't really 324 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 3: want to make the case for it. They're sort of 325 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 3: back to Iraq. They're sort of predicated on this origin 326 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 3: myth that the Maga movement exists in opposition to the 327 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 3: Bush administration's foreign policy, and yet it is executing in 328 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 3: Venezuela again a cartoonish, caricatured left wing vision of what 329 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 3: George W. Bush's foreign policy was, while at the same 330 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 3: time rehabilitating the instincts, at least in Iran and perhaps 331 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 3: nowhere else, but at least in Iran, that the world 332 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 3: will be a better place when Iranians managed to achieve 333 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: the full flourishing of their human desire for liberty and freedom. 334 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: That could not be a more Bushian. It belongs in 335 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 3: the two thousand and five inaugural address. It is as 336 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 3: a Bushy and a foreign policy approach as you can get. 337 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: His name is Noah Rothman. Find his work at Nationalreview 338 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: dot com. Noah, I appreciate you taking the time to 339 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: be with us. More is coming up on Tony Katz. 340 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: This is Tony Katz today.