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Speaker 1: I am trying my best to make sense of this economy,

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Speaker 1: and I can't do it. Listen, I don't claim any

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Speaker 1: level of economic expertise.

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Speaker 2: What I do claim is that I look at this

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Speaker 2: stuff every day.

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Speaker 1: And I could take a look at a GDP of

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Speaker 1: three point three percent, and I can look at retail

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Speaker 1: sales up point nine percent was it. I could take

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Speaker 1: a look at a real wages up point seven percent

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Speaker 1: and annualized out a basically five percent growth and say,

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Speaker 1: dear Lord, that's really really good. And if everything is

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Speaker 1: so good, why is everything so damn expensive? Because the

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Speaker 1: inflation has not gone anywhere. Tony Katz, Tony Katz today,

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Speaker 1: good to be with you. I can take a look

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Speaker 1: at Salesforce bragging about the fact that AI has allowed

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Speaker 1: them to shed four thousand employees, and no one's talking

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Speaker 1: about the.

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Speaker 2: Fact that we're losing jobs.

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Speaker 1: And then I could take a look at job opening data,

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Speaker 1: which is at an outrageous low. Charles Payne joins me

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Speaker 1: right now, you know him from Fox Business making money

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Speaker 1: with Charles pay every single Monday through Friday at Fox Business.

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Speaker 1: You should be getting that on your cable channel or

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Speaker 1: subscribing to it. He is also the man behind W

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Speaker 1: Street like Wall Street Letter, w W Street dot Com.

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Speaker 1: I want to discuss inflation. I want to discuss what

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Speaker 1: we're going to see with interest rates. But first things first,

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Speaker 1: is this economy greater? Is this economy terrible? Because I

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Speaker 1: have no idea.

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Speaker 3: It's somewhere in the middle, because you know what, it's

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Speaker 3: so likely you hear on TV and people say the

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Speaker 3: consumer there's no such thing, and there's no such thing

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Speaker 3: as the economy, and I think, listen, I don't. I

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Speaker 3: haven't gone through everything you know, throughout the history of time,

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Speaker 3: but I certainly feel like my time working on Wall

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Speaker 3: Street and being involved in the stock market, this is

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Speaker 3: one of the most biprecated situations we've ever seen, where

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Speaker 3: just the folks at the top have so much tony,

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Speaker 3: they're doing so well. They are carrying the aggregated numbers.

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Speaker 3: So like you know, when you mentioned retail, sales in

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Speaker 3: retail are up, but if you adjust for inflation or

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Speaker 3: you know, they're they're flat for the almost five years.

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Speaker 3: You know, wages the same sort of thing. You go

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Speaker 3: down the line. Then you had the CEO of McDonald

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Speaker 3: yesterday saying a lark swapped to the customers it skipping

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Speaker 3: a meal, So you know, it's it's just so bifrecated.

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Speaker 3: Where you know, the stock markets at all time high,

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Speaker 3: bitcoins at all time high, goals at all time high,

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Speaker 3: houses are at all time highs, and if you own

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Speaker 3: assets are doing extraordinarily well. If you don't, you are struggling.

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Speaker 3: And both of those come through periodically in the data.

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Speaker 3: But that's the reality.

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Speaker 1: So the reality says that it's it's a mix. What

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Speaker 1: I hear from the Trump administration, of course, is that

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Speaker 1: everything is great, and everything is perfect, and everything is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: And yet I'm left with I don't think everything is wonderful.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with at least a couple of these numbers.

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Speaker 1: The real wages being up as you see it, is

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Speaker 1: that accurate?

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Speaker 2: And where does that come from?

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Speaker 3: I think what we're seeing is blue collar wages are

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Speaker 3: improved or have improved. And you know, it's it's sort

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Speaker 3: of ironic for everyone who's spent the last ten twelve

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Speaker 3: years telling their daughters to learn how to code, and

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Speaker 3: that it's sort of coming. You know that those folks

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Speaker 3: aren't getting jobs, whereas blue collar workers are are getting raises.

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Speaker 3: But and again, you know, it's it's and lot of

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Speaker 3: that stuff you've got to be really careful with on

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Speaker 3: a month to month basis. This year we've come out

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Speaker 3: to get pretty good. Blue collar wages are doing well,

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Speaker 3: but you already mentioned how many people are being laid

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Speaker 3: off at salesforce dot Com. Lots of people have been

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Speaker 3: laid off in the high paying tech area, and that's

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Speaker 3: not necessarily reflected. They're really the jobs and wages. There

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Speaker 3: are two things right the front, the one end where

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Speaker 3: you have layoffs today, I mean tomorrow will be initial

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Speaker 3: job was claims, and everyone kind of looks at that.

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Speaker 3: But I think the real pain and agony is on

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Speaker 3: the other side of it, the attrition side, when people

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Speaker 3: have been laid off and they can't find a job

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Speaker 3: that continuing claims almost two million. You know, the job

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Speaker 3: support this morning, the Jolt support the lowest jobs opening

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Speaker 3: numbers since December of twenty twenty. So you know, it's

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Speaker 3: again it's a bifurcated situation where some people are doing well.

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Speaker 3: And I had a plumber, two plumbers come over on

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Speaker 3: Monday and they were there for less than an hour

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Speaker 3: when it was six hundred and fifty bucks. So you know,

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Speaker 3: some people are doing well, but the masses are really

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Speaker 3: really struggling. And it's and you know, when you mentioned wages,

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Speaker 3: I also want to bring up the FED because one

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Speaker 3: of the things that's always bugged me, and I posted

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Speaker 3: it on X the other day on Labor Day, is

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Speaker 3: when we look at at the share of GDP, wages

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Speaker 3: have tumbled, have crashed since really since two thousand and nine, dramatically,

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Speaker 3: and so the average person out there is not keeping

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Speaker 3: up with the overall prosperity of the country. So when

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Speaker 3: I see people finally getting a raised and the FED

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Speaker 3: wants to tamp down on that, it drives me nuts.

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Speaker 3: You know, Americans should get a raised and should be

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Speaker 3: getting raises for a long time, just to sort of

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Speaker 3: catch up with the natural curve of prosperity that the

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Speaker 3: overall nation is enjoying. But it's things like AI and

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Speaker 3: data centers.

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Speaker 1: Talking to Charles pain a Fox Business catch them every

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Speaker 1: Monday through Friday over there on Fox businesses show Making Money,

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Speaker 1: and the website w street dot com. Checking out your

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Speaker 1: Twitter feed, X feed, CV pain Payne time to rebuild

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Speaker 1: the labor force and allow wages to grow. You have

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Speaker 1: been one of the peoples you bring up the FED

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Speaker 1: discussing how interest rates should come down, that this has

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Speaker 1: been nutty, this has been unnecessary, and what is Jerome

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Speaker 1: Powell doing?

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Speaker 2: Do you still feel that way?

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Speaker 3: I do. I do because I think that people are

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Speaker 3: looking at the FED through the same lens, and that's

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Speaker 3: the lens at Wall Street sold to America, and that's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, well, the stock market's up, you know, prosperity

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Speaker 3: is nice. The Fed shouldn't intervene. But again, there's a

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Speaker 3: certain group of people who've made money. Think about where

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Speaker 3: money market phones were about five years ago. You know,

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Speaker 3: there was a time where I never even heard the

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Speaker 3: term faded, like you know, I'm going to open a

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Speaker 3: CD or a money market, right, I just no one

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Speaker 3: talked about it. And then you had this abrupt, strong

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Speaker 3: hiking of rates. All of a sudden, you can get

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Speaker 3: four and a half five percent in the money market,

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Speaker 3: and so it went from zero to seven trillion dollars.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, people who could afford to put

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Speaker 3: money in, those that don't extraordinarily, well, they're there billions,

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Speaker 3: one hundreds of billions. Think about warm buppets sitting on

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Speaker 3: a record amount of four undred billion dollars in cash.

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Speaker 3: But then think about the folks who's you know, credit

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Speaker 3: card bill was sixteen percent and now it's twenty two percent,

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Speaker 3: and the same thing for an auto loan, and forget

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Speaker 3: about how many people have been shut out a housing market.

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Speaker 3: So you know, tomorrow I think they begin a confirmation

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Speaker 3: process for Steve Myron and I really hope that he

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Speaker 3: can get in there and some other folks, and they

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Speaker 3: really retool the FED so that it's not just you know,

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Speaker 3: it's just not a tool of keeping it wealthy wealthy,

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Speaker 3: and I just I hate to say it, but that's

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Speaker 3: all it is. And you know, if you tell Pole, hey,

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Speaker 3: you know, or Bostic who spoke today, you know that

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Speaker 3: the CEO McDonald's is saying a lartswath of Americans are

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Speaker 3: skipping meals. They're going to look at the aggregod data

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Speaker 3: and say we don't see it.

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Speaker 1: While McDonald's now adds the extra value meal because they're

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Speaker 1: trying to get even more people through the door. Talking

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Speaker 1: to Charles pain a Fox Business CV pain p A

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Speaker 1: y n E on the Twitter, actually should follow him there.

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Speaker 1: This is not the first time I've heard you discuss

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Speaker 1: and we've had plenty of conversations, and I always appreciate it,

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Speaker 1: and I appreciate you taking the time.

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Speaker 2: This is not the.

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Speaker 1: First time you've really gotten into and it seems to

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Speaker 1: very much bother you in a visceral way. What I

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Speaker 1: would describe as if I was hearing it from a progressive,

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Speaker 1: this idea of classist that the rich are and here's

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Speaker 1: how it affecting the rest of us. It's a it's

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Speaker 1: a it's odd to hear you playing almost in a

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Speaker 1: proletariat bourgeoisie conversation.

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Speaker 2: I'd like for you to get a little more detailed.

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Speaker 2: What is it that you're seeing as the issue.

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Speaker 3: It's not it's not the blame game per se. You know.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying that we have to retool the way

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Speaker 3: that that right now. Sadly, we all live for the

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Speaker 3: stock market, and most people don't realize that, but that's

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Speaker 3: what they're doing when they walk outside. They have been

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Speaker 3: retoold to live for the stock market. And listen, I'm

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Speaker 3: a champion of the summer stock market. I want people

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Speaker 3: to invest, and I've urged people to invest, and I

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Speaker 3: started when I was seventeen, but the scales of tip

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Speaker 3: too far and it's going to end up where not

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Speaker 3: just New York City elections a socialists, but you know,

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Speaker 3: the moin may elect a socialists at some point. So

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm just saying that the people who pull

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Speaker 3: the power, who have the levers, need to understand that

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Speaker 3: when when gains from wages collapse, but asset holders are

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Speaker 3: living their best life, people watch now. The thing is,

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Speaker 3: the top ten percent only get one vote. And so

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Speaker 3: while the top ten percent maybe doing fifty per cent

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Speaker 3: of the purchases, and that's fine with Wall Street as

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Speaker 3: long as the bottom line looks juicy. They don't care

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Speaker 3: how it got there. Those other ninety percent will have

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Speaker 3: a vote in essay, and at some point they may

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Speaker 3: give up on the system. And you know, one of

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Speaker 3: the most brilliant politicians in history was Auto von Bismarck.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things he did when he saw

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Speaker 3: on the spread of socialism in Europe is he said, listen,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to fight it. I'm going to use judo.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to persuade, you know, the emperor to implement

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Speaker 3: social security, you know, as a socialist kind of thing,

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Speaker 3: an offering. And of course it was brilliant because at

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Speaker 3: the time, you know, again sixty five years old. Back then,

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Speaker 3: the average person was living to like forty f fifty,

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Speaker 3: so it was sort of it was a promise. It

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Speaker 3: was an empty promise, but it was something to sort

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Speaker 3: of feed the masses so that they wouldn't completely absorb

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Speaker 3: or embrace socialism. And so what I'm saying is that

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Speaker 3: you have a system where I read an article today

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Speaker 3: Oracle is going to lay off a bunch of people.

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Speaker 3: That's good and fine and dandy. You know, it's it's

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Speaker 3: they've had a hell of a year. The stock is

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Speaker 3: up huge. Larry Ellison's not a second richest person in

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Speaker 3: the world, and I'm really happy for him. One of

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Speaker 3: his things was, you know, he always wanted to take

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Speaker 3: down Bill Gates. You know, it's just that we're not

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Speaker 3: careful as a nation. You know, it's it's it's it's

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Speaker 3: gonna tilt over in the wrong way. So I love

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Speaker 3: I'm a big believer in hard work. I urge people

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Speaker 3: to work hard. I'm a I'm a big believer that,

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Speaker 3: you know, don't give people thinks so they can earn

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Speaker 3: it themselves. And by the same token, make sure that

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Speaker 3: there's something they can earn.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Charles of FoxBusiness dot Com before I let

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Speaker 2: you go.

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Speaker 1: As we we engage these conversations about the economy, and

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Speaker 1: maybe it's it is a little bit as a concept

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Speaker 1: in the ether, we continue to see something in reality,

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Speaker 1: which is tariffs.

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Speaker 2: And I have never been a big tariff guy.

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Speaker 1: If I'm going to see deals, I want to actually

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Speaker 1: see the effect of the deal, not just the announcement

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Speaker 1: of the deal. If if a market's going to open

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Speaker 1: up to US in agriculture and they're gonna buy five

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Speaker 1: billion dollars, let's say the UK is of agriculture or

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Speaker 1: or meat products, livestock products, I want to see the

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Speaker 1: actual buying, not just the conversation of it happening. But

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Speaker 1: the White House talks clearly about how this is working in.

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Speaker 1: President Trump the other's day said without tariffs, the country

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Speaker 1: would fall apart. That seems to be a bit of

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Speaker 1: hyperbole that we would fall apart without tariffs. Do you

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Speaker 1: feel that the US is winning any level of trade

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Speaker 1: war or maybe evening the play.

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Speaker 3: I feel like we're we've won about eighty five percent

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Speaker 3: of it, with just a couple more to win. You know.

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Speaker 3: It's I thought it was interesting. I had ed Yardeni

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Speaker 3: as one of the most respected guys in the street yesterday,

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Speaker 3: and he pointed to yesterday's market turmoil as a street

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Speaker 3: being worried that the tariffs will go away, you know,

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Speaker 3: because Wall Street, and It's infinite wisdom, always at some

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Speaker 3: point figures it out, digest it, and then actually starts

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Speaker 3: to model around it. Right, And you know, I think

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Speaker 3: we just brought it thirty one billion dollars in August,

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Speaker 3: So if you had like three hundred billion a year,

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Speaker 3: three trillion dollars in a decade, you know, that's that's

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Speaker 3: that's pretty good, pretty good money right there. So no,

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Speaker 3: we wouldn't fall apart. Per se. I'm with you in

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Speaker 3: the sense that you know it serves many purposes, and

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Speaker 3: you know, one could be revenue for the economy, for

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Speaker 3: the government. But I'd like the other idea of of

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Speaker 3: bringing jobs back, bringing manufacturing back. But I think you

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Speaker 3: can't think We've got to give it time to work.

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Speaker 3: I really think this is one of these policies. If

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Speaker 3: it goes through, and it's allowed to go through, we

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Speaker 3: need to judge it in like two years from now.

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Speaker 3: You know, the myopic need to say, oh well, there

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Speaker 3: wasn't a factory. When I woke up this morning, it's

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Speaker 3: you know, or you know, they didn't buy the UK,

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Speaker 3: didn't buy any cattle last night. It's got to work.

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Speaker 3: The paperwork's got to be done. All this stuff has

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Speaker 3: got to be done, all the all the dots and

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Speaker 3: x's and o's and all that other stuff behind the scenes.

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Speaker 3: But I say, give it a chance to work. Allowed

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Speaker 3: to work, because we have seen the opposite effect. We

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Speaker 3: have seen a hollowing out of our nation. We've seen

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Speaker 3: the hollowing out of our industrial base. And it's so

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Speaker 3: amazing to me. Every day I wake up and there's

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Speaker 3: these amazing stories about how great China is, whether it's

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Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal or anybody else. And yet this

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Speaker 3: was their model, right They gargantua and tariffs. You know,

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Speaker 3: no one could buy do anything in their business. They

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Speaker 3: took every industry from US gladly and Europe by the way,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and and and now they have the momentum,

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Speaker 3: the wind in their sales, and so trying to reverse

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Speaker 3: that as a noble gesture. For me, it's a necessary gesture.

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Speaker 2: Also necessary.

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Speaker 1: I'm down with Charles Payn Fox Business, go to Wstreet

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Speaker 1: dot Com and get all the information. Be a part

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Speaker 1: of what he's building over there. Charles Payn, appreciate you

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Speaker 1: taking the time.

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Speaker 3: More thige man every time. Love the conversation every time.

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Speaker 2: Man, Thank you. I'm Tony Karatt.