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Speaker 1: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of

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Speaker 1: a free state, the right of the people to keep

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Speaker 1: in their arms shall not be infringed. This is the

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Speaker 1: Second Amendment, and this is the Gun Guy a boom.

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Speaker 2: Boom boom boom bang bang bang bang boom, boom, boom,

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Speaker 2: boom bang bang bom.

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Speaker 3: Guy Ralford on ninety three WYBC.

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Speaker 4: And good afternoon, and welcome to the Gun Guy Show

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Speaker 4: here on ninety three WYBC. Thrilled to have you with us.

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Speaker 4: A lot to talk about, lot, lot lot going on

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Speaker 4: on the two way landscape that I'm excited to get into.

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Speaker 4: Interesting case that just came out of Beach Grove, new

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Speaker 4: criminal case filed in Marion County. This got some publicity yesterday.

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Speaker 4: I posted about it on my Twitter or x account

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Speaker 4: and you can check that out at Guy Ralph. If

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Speaker 4: you haven't followed me there, please do. Trying to build

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Speaker 4: that following. But got a lot of attention in the media.

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Speaker 4: Hammer Nigel talked about it a little bit and I'm

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Speaker 4: sure we'll visit it on Monday Gunday on Hammer and

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Speaker 4: Nigel at three point thirty five on Monday. But this

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Speaker 4: is a case where a person has now been arrested

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Speaker 4: gentleman named Jonathan Moser of Beechgrove after a lady called

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Speaker 4: police called nine one one and reported that Moser, who

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Speaker 4: was somewhat of a neighbor lived there close to her

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Speaker 4: in Beech Grove, had shot her cat. And listen, when

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Speaker 4: I teach the Essentials of Indiana Gun Law class that

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Speaker 4: you hear me pitching off in here on the Gun

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Speaker 4: Guy Show. Whenever I get into the issue of defending

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Speaker 4: your animals or what force has justified, I'd say, if

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Speaker 4: someone's trying to hurt your animal and you want to

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Speaker 4: prevent it. If there's anything where people get upset about

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Speaker 4: the state of the law and often want to argue

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Speaker 4: with me understandably, is when I tell him what is

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Speaker 4: and isn't justified and legal when it comes to defending

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Speaker 4: your pets. And this is a little different issue here,

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Speaker 4: which is what crime is involved if someone else injures

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Speaker 4: or God forbid, has happened in this case Jonathan Moser

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Speaker 4: allegedly according to authorities, and he's now been booked and

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Speaker 4: is a criminal case pending in Mary County for actually

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Speaker 4: killing this cat. And it's a level sixth family. It's

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Speaker 4: killing a domestic animal. If you knowingly kill a domestic

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Speaker 4: animal without consent, I'm sure that rules out euthanasia and

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Speaker 4: whatnot of your animal, But you kill a domestic animal intentionally,

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Speaker 4: that's the level sixth family. And so what's interesting about

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Speaker 4: this case and probably why it got the amount of

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Speaker 4: attention that it did, is the Fox fifty nine headline

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Speaker 4: that a lot of us saw. And this is the

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Speaker 4: article that I posted on X. He's claiming self defense

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Speaker 4: against the cat. He said he was walking his dog.

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Speaker 4: And this is all according to the Fox fifty nine report,

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Speaker 4: which again you can find on my Twitter or X account.

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Speaker 4: I should do what Tony Cass does. He just always

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Speaker 4: says Twitter X. In that way, he's covered no matter

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Speaker 4: what people happen to be calling it these days. But

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Speaker 4: as posted on my Twitter X, I'll go with that.

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Speaker 4: The Fox fifty nine article says he was walking his dog.

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Speaker 4: He was reportedly walking his dog, according to mister Moser,

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Speaker 4: and the cat attacked them. And the initial report that

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Speaker 4: he gave to police after the cat owner found her

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Speaker 4: cat shot and dead and called nine one one, the

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Speaker 4: initial report that mister Moser gave was that the cat

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Speaker 4: had attacked him and his dog and he was acting

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Speaker 4: in self defense, and the article referred to the fact

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Speaker 4: that authorities saw that he had some scratches on one arm,

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Speaker 4: which would apparently support his claim of self defense. And

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Speaker 4: what I've mentioned in my class, my Essentials of Indiana

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Speaker 4: Gunglaw class, several times, and people never like hearing this

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Speaker 4: is that the law of self defense and the particular

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Speaker 4: justification for the use of force, including deadly force in

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Speaker 4: self defense the law of self defense in Indiana and

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Speaker 4: the Self Defense Statute. And if you want to read

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Speaker 4: it and pull it right up, just google it. It's

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Speaker 4: thirty five dash forty one dash three dash two and

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Speaker 4: there's several different subsections. One I call the General Self

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Speaker 4: Defense Statutes. In sub session C talks about what would

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Speaker 4: apply here outside your home, and it talks about using force,

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Speaker 4: including deadly force, to prevent serious bodily injury to you

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Speaker 4: or another person. But it says against another person. There's

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Speaker 4: no mention in the Self Defense Statute in terms of

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Speaker 4: justifying the use of deadly force or any force at all.

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Speaker 4: There's no mention of animals. It's just not in there.

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Speaker 4: And whenever I mentioned that to people, people tend to

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Speaker 4: get upset, saying hold on, and I've had a bunch

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Speaker 4: of cases. And I'll get into this here on the

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Speaker 4: show because it's a recurrent issue and a lot of

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Speaker 4: people in Indiana have faced this. People say, hold on,

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Speaker 4: I'm out walking my dog, or I'm on a walk

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Speaker 4: or a bicycle ride with my wife, and listen, I

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Speaker 4: get it. I have bicycled and walked a lot. My

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Speaker 4: wife and I will go out and will go on

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Speaker 4: long walks around our Zionsville neighborhood, and we have on

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Speaker 4: many occasions gone out bicycling and people then, either from

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Speaker 4: experience or hypothetically, say, hold on, an aggressive dog comes

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Speaker 4: at me, snarling and barking and rushing at me. Or

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Speaker 4: one gentleman called me and said he was out taking

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Speaker 4: a walk with his granddaughter. It's like four year old

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Speaker 4: granddaughter and they're just todd along along, minding their own business,

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Speaker 4: and a great, big, angry dog. I don't like to

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Speaker 4: name breeds, by the way. I'm a dog lover, and

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Speaker 4: as I may have mentioned over the years, and people

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Speaker 4: want to demonize certain breeds of dogs, I don't really

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Speaker 4: believe in that. I think there are many more, many,

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Speaker 4: many more bad dog owners than there are bad dog breeds,

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Speaker 4: but a big aggressive dog, typically associated with a trained

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Speaker 4: guard dog. It comes rushing at him and his granddaughter

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Speaker 4: from across someone's yard, slobbering and snarling and barking and

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Speaker 4: rushing straight at me. He says, are you telling me

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Speaker 4: I can't shoot that dog? And that's not what I'm saying.

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Speaker 4: And I'll get into more detail on this, because again,

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Speaker 4: it's a recurrent issue. I mean, how many of us,

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Speaker 4: especially at my advanced old age, haven't spent a lot

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Speaker 4: of time outdoors a lot of times walking around run.

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Speaker 4: I'm kind of past my running days. My knees don't

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Speaker 4: get real happy if I go out and try to jog.

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Speaker 4: I still try it on occasion and usually regret that

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Speaker 4: hell out of it. But having done that a lot

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Speaker 4: over the years as a recovering athlete from in my

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Speaker 4: younger days, hey, I've had a lot of aggressive I've

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Speaker 4: been bit by dogs on a couple of differentcasions. I

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Speaker 4: got one pretty decent scar on one calf when I

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Speaker 4: was a kid. Dog came up, got ahold of my calf,

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Speaker 4: wouldn't let go, tore me up pretty good. So it's

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Speaker 4: a recurrent issue. So what I'm saying is not so

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Speaker 4: much that there's nothing you can do. What I'm saying

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Speaker 4: is you can't claim self defense because self defense doesn't apply.

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Speaker 4: And so what happens if you, let's say, shoot an

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Speaker 4: aggressive dog, are you going to jail? Well, a case

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Speaker 4: that I've defended now multiple times, i'd have to add

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Speaker 4: them up going back through my files, I'd say probably

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Speaker 4: seven or eight times in my forty three years as

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Speaker 4: a lawyer. A case I've now repeatedly defended is someone

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Speaker 4: who shoots at or shoots an aggressive dog in a

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Speaker 4: residential area or at least somewhere where there are other

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Speaker 4: houses other people around, and they've been prosecuted. The cases

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Speaker 4: I've had been prosecuted for criminal recklessness of the deadly weapon.

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Speaker 4: Not so much for shooting the dog, which is the

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Speaker 4: issue in mister Moser's case in Beech Grove, which we'll

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Speaker 4: get back into, but because by shooting a gun in

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Speaker 4: a residential area where there are other people in the

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Speaker 4: immediate area, or in the direction of other people, or

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Speaker 4: in close proximity to another person, then that gunshot, even

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Speaker 4: though they were shooting or shooting at an aggressive animal,

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Speaker 4: actually endangered someone in the area, and for that reason,

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Speaker 4: constitutes criminal recklessness with a deadly weapon, which is a

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Speaker 4: level sixth felony. When they've said, hold on, I wasn't

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Speaker 4: shooting at or near any other person. I was shooting

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Speaker 4: the angry, snarling, barking, aggressive dog trying to maim me

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Speaker 4: or a loved one. I didn't endanger anyone. But they've

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Speaker 4: been prosecuted and they've had to hire a lawyer. That's

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Speaker 4: no fun and it can certainly be expensive. Does that

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Speaker 4: mean they're guilty? Oh hell no. In fact, i've never

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Speaker 4: seen one of those cases result in an actual criminal conviction,

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Speaker 4: and I can go into why that is. But then

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Speaker 4: there's a separate problem that mister Moser has in Beech Grove,

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Speaker 4: and I'm not saying he's guilty of anything. I think

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Speaker 4: the facts of that, especially since he had scratch is

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Speaker 4: on his arm. And hey, listen, I've been I hate

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Speaker 4: to admit it. Yes, I've been attacked by a cat before. Now.

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Speaker 4: It was my sister's cat and it leapt off the

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Speaker 4: top of the refrigerator late at night when I was

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Speaker 4: raiding the refrigerator for a snack, and I'm sure that

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Speaker 4: I had, as a young teenager at the time, inspired

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Speaker 4: the hostility displayed by that cat. Under the circumstances, I

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Speaker 4: didn't like the cat. I still don't like cats, and

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Speaker 4: I wasn't particularly friendly toward the cat. The cat didn't

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Speaker 4: like me. I didn't like the cat. And so one

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Speaker 4: night I was getting into the refrigerator and from on

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Speaker 4: top of the refrigerator it was a black cat. I

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Speaker 4: couldn't see it up there. All of a sudden, I

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Speaker 4: see this thing, all four legs extended and claws fully engaged.

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Speaker 4: This thing is descending on my head. And it was

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Speaker 4: not a pleasant experience. And it took quite a bit

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Speaker 4: of energy to get the thing off me and get

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Speaker 4: its of me. So are are Are you legally defenseless

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Speaker 4: if attacked by an animal, and in this case a cat,

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Speaker 4: not necessarily. That's what we'll go into, and as we

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Speaker 4: always do, take your calls with questions or comments. Three

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Speaker 4: one seven two three nine ninety three ninety three three

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Speaker 4: one seven two three nine ninety three ninety three. And

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Speaker 4: by the way, I'm just getting into the discussion. Don't

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Speaker 4: draw any conclusions. Don't send me angry messages, whether it's

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Speaker 4: on the YouTube feed or otherwise about I must be

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Speaker 4: an idiot because I'm saying you can't defend yourself. That's

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Speaker 4: not what I'm saying. And there's more to the discussion.

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Speaker 4: I'm just saying that self defense quote unquote in Indiana

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Speaker 4: does not include defending yourself against an animal because it's

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Speaker 4: simply not in the self defense Statute. But we'll get

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Speaker 4: into more of what alternative issues there are and another

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Speaker 4: argument that can certainly be made with success in Indiana

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Speaker 4: when we come back. Give us a call, join the discussion.

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Speaker 4: Three one seven two three nine ninety three, ninety three,

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Speaker 4: three one seven, ninety three, ninety three. This is Guy

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Speaker 4: Ralford on The Gun Guy Show on ninety three WIBC.

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Speaker 3: Second to nine on this second amendment.

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Speaker 1: This is the Gun Guy with Guy Ralford on ninety

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Speaker 1: three WYBC.

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Speaker 4: And welcome back. I'm Guy Ralford on the Gun Guy

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Speaker 4: Show on ninety three WYBC, and we're talking about the

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Speaker 4: case of Oreo was the name of the cat in

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Speaker 4: Beech Grove that was killed by a gentleman who's not

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Speaker 4: being charged with intentional killing of a domestic animal, which

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Speaker 4: is a felony. And I don't have any problem with that.

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Speaker 4: By the way, Like I said, I'm a I'm a

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Speaker 4: dog owner. Currently have two dogs in my house, beautiful

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Speaker 4: Golden Retriever that my son Craig actually owned. Love that dog.

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Speaker 4: And I have a totally unidentifiable mutt named Wrigley who's

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Speaker 4: also even though nobody can figure out what kind of

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Speaker 4: breed she is, is a fabulous dog as well. And listen,

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Speaker 4: somebody attempts to do harm to my dog, they're going

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Speaker 4: to have a problem if I'm anywhere in the area.

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Speaker 4: But what's the law around this area?

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Speaker 5: Now?

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Speaker 4: Again, the gentleman who's being charged with a crime, mister

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Speaker 4: Jonathan Moser, I believe it is in Beech Grove is

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Speaker 4: claiming self defense. Well, self defense, as I mentioned before,

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Speaker 4: the break isn't included in a self defense statute as

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Speaker 4: far as justifying the use of force or in this case,

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Speaker 4: deadly force against an animal, only force against another person.

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Speaker 4: So does that mean you're completely out of luck? I'm

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Speaker 4: walking along and an aggressive dog comes and tries to

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Speaker 4: attack me, attack my wife or another loved one. Again,

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Speaker 4: something tugs at my heart strings. I have five grandkids.

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Speaker 4: When my grandkids is with me, a snarling, slobbery and

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Speaker 4: marking aggressive odd christ to hurt one of my grandkids

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, the dog's gonna get hurt. It don't get

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Speaker 4: hurt every time. But what are the legal ramifications of that?

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Speaker 4: Self defense isn't really on the table, So am I

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Speaker 4: completely out of luck? Well the answers, No, Indiana has

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Speaker 4: another doctrine, and this is a matter of common law,

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Speaker 4: meaning it's not in the self defense statute, is created

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Speaker 4: by case law. But it makes all the sense in

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Speaker 4: the world, and it's called the doctrine of necessity. And

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Speaker 4: people don't hear a lot about this. In fact, I

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Speaker 4: just decided, after looking at this cat case in Beach

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Speaker 4: Grow it's violin Mary Counting. I thought, you know what,

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Speaker 4: I need to include this. And we always struggle to

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Speaker 4: get the course completely in in the time allotted for

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Speaker 4: essentials of Indiana gun law. But I think this is

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Speaker 4: an important point, and I think it's I think it

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Speaker 4: makes the grade for what I consider to be an

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Speaker 4: essential point of Indiana gun law. And it's the first

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Speaker 4: time I've discussed it here on the Gun Guy Show,

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Speaker 4: which is the Doctor of Necessity says you can do

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Speaker 4: something that would otherwise be illegal if it is necessary

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Speaker 4: under the circumstances and results in lesser harm. This is

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Speaker 4: lesser harm and a cosmic sense, lesser harm to everyone

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Speaker 4: involved than if you didn't do the illegal thing. So

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Speaker 4: it's a really common sense example because it's not self defense.

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Speaker 4: It's different than that. Let's say, let's say someone, an unarmed,

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Speaker 4: defenseless person is is being being attacked in a road

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Speaker 4: rage situation, and they're being pursued and they've done nothing

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Speaker 4: to instigate this. They're not the initial aggressor, but someone's

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Speaker 4: chasing them in a way that that that that that

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Speaker 4: puts them in fear of of dying, or let's go

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Speaker 4: to the next let's go to the next level. So

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Speaker 4: we're not just talking about classic road rage, which I've

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Speaker 4: talked about many times, but someone's actually, say, shooting at

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Speaker 4: them as they're driving around four to sixty five, and

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Speaker 4: that person then drives very very fast in a way

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Speaker 4: that could easily be called reckless driving, which is a crime,

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Speaker 4: but they're doing so simply to get away. It's not

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Speaker 4: self defense because it's not using force against another person.

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Speaker 4: But they meet the definition of criminal recklesses or it's

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Speaker 4: not pardon me not criminal recklessness, reckless driving because of

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Speaker 4: how fast they're driving and the manner in which they're

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Speaker 4: driving simply trying to get away because someone's shooting at them.

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Speaker 4: If they got prosecuted for reckless driving, they could say,

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Speaker 4: hold on, under the circumstances getting shot, dying from a

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Speaker 4: gunshot wound on the highway from someone actively shooting at me,

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Speaker 4: was the much greater harm was likely to result for

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Speaker 4: me driving too fast on the interstate. Now a jury

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Speaker 4: could look at that and say they'd reject that because

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Speaker 4: the greater harm could be causing a multi car pile

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Speaker 4: up and killing multiple people. And that's a greater harm

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Speaker 4: than would have resulted from you simply getting shot. So

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Speaker 4: the jury, if you were prosecuted and brought to trial,

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Speaker 4: would be free to reject that argument. But it's an

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Speaker 4: argument you can make. And an actual better argument is

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Speaker 4: in the context we're talking about, which is, yes, I'm

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Speaker 4: shooting at an animal. Now that is that intentional killing

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Speaker 4: of a domestic animal. Well, yeah, it's a domestic animal.

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Speaker 4: It's a dog, for instance, or in this case, cat

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Speaker 4: certainly appears to be a domestic animal, and I'm shooting

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Speaker 4: at it, so my intentionally trying to kill it. Well, yes,

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Speaker 4: I'm using a firearm to shoot a dog or a cat.

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Speaker 4: Logic would indicate that I'm likely to kill it if

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Speaker 4: I shoot it. But can I argue the necessity? Can

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Speaker 4: I argue necessity because that aggressive dog or Oreo, the

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Speaker 4: trained attack cat in Beech Grove, was trying to injure me,

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Speaker 4: and the greater harm would have been getting mauled or again,

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Speaker 4: very compelling argument, my young granddaughter getting malled by an

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Speaker 4: aggressive dog. It was it was the much greater harm

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Speaker 4: to allow her to be maled or killed, as opposed

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Speaker 4: to killing the dog which instigated the event, owned by

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Speaker 4: a person who didn't follow local ordinances by keeping the

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Speaker 4: dog contained in the yard or otherwise on a leash.

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Speaker 4: So the greater harm would have resulted from my granddaughter

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Speaker 4: getting mauled, which would allow me then to do something

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Speaker 4: that would otherwise be illegal under the doctrine of necessity.

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Speaker 4: That's how that works. Now, is that a lay down

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Speaker 4: defense in every case is a prosecutor like Ryan Muir

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Speaker 4: is going to buy that necessarily all open questions. It's

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Speaker 4: certainly not a lay down defense. It's gonna be a

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Speaker 4: fact question at the end of the day that a

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Speaker 4: prosecutor would have to decide whether that's something they really

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Speaker 4: want to pursue in terms of trying to get beyond

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Speaker 4: that defense and whether they be able to convince a

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Speaker 4: jury to convict. Notwithstanding the argument to what was done,

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Speaker 4: which would otherwise be illegal, is allowed under the doctrine

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Speaker 4: of necessity. But that's the argument. It's different than self defense.

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Speaker 4: But it's funny. I didn't answer my own question I

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Speaker 4: posted on Twitter X. I posted that, Well, what I

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Speaker 4: did is I shared the Fox fifty nine story about

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Speaker 4: the man of Beech Grove killing Oreo, the trained attack cat,

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Speaker 4: I say facetiously and claiming so defense, and I just said,

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Speaker 4: did you know? I love asking questions and just allowing

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Speaker 4: the comments to kind of take off from there on

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Speaker 4: social media, I just posted, did you know the Indiana

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Speaker 4: self defense statue does not justify the use of force

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Speaker 4: against an animal? Only quote another person? As I expected,

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Speaker 4: the comments got pretty entertaining from there. But that's a

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Speaker 4: doctrine of necessity, and it's something I haven't discussed before

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Speaker 4: here on the Gun Guy Show. And I do think

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Speaker 4: it warrants some discussion because it answers the question of

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Speaker 4: hold on, do I have to just get maulked? But

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Speaker 4: by the way, a topic that I do cover in

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Speaker 4: Essentials of Indiana gun Law, and I'll continue to do

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Speaker 4: that as well as as adding a brief discussion on

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Speaker 4: the doctrine of necessity, which we just talked about. So

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Speaker 4: in preparing, if you're going out on a walk in

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Speaker 4: your neighborhood, you're going on a bicycle ride, and you're

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Speaker 4: going on a jog on the the Monon Trail or

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Speaker 4: some other location where yes, there is a possibility that

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Speaker 4: some knucklehead pet owner doesn't have their pet under control

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Speaker 4: and you're going to get potentially attacked or threatened with

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Speaker 4: an attack by an aggressive animal, including an aggressive dog.

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Speaker 4: Does that mean there's there's nothing you can do to

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Speaker 4: prepare for that other than carrying your gun. No, not

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Speaker 4: at all. And it's something that I have talked about

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Speaker 4: in my classes, haven't addressed so much here on the show,

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Speaker 4: But given this case coming out of Beach Grove, I

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Speaker 4: think that's an appropriate discussion right now, though, we're going

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Speaker 4: to take a break and we'll go to the phone lines.

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Speaker 4: I think we've had a couple of people call. We'll

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Speaker 4: answer your questions and allow you to air your comments

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Speaker 4: here in just a bit. Give us a call. Three

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Speaker 4: one seven two three nine ninety three ninety three. By

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Speaker 4: the way, I understand the phone lines we're not working

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Speaker 4: during the Home and Garden Show this morning nine to one.

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Speaker 4: But apparently our our our, our our on call engineers

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Speaker 4: around here on WIBC have gotten that fixed, which I'm

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Speaker 4: glad to hear. So give us a call. Three one

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Speaker 4: seven two three nine ninety three ninety three. This is

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Speaker 4: Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy Show on ninety three

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Speaker 4: wib SUIT.

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Speaker 1: The show about gun rights, gun safety and responsible gun ownership.

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Speaker 1: This is the Gun Guy with Guy Ralford and on

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Speaker 1: ninety three WYDC.

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Speaker 4: And welcome back. I'm Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy

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Speaker 4: Show on ninety three WIBC. And so we've had a

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Speaker 4: couple of callers. Let's go to the phone lines, and

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Speaker 4: our pal Buzz has called in. Buzz, Welcome to the

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Speaker 4: Gun Guy Show.

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Speaker 6: A good afternoon, Thank you, sirredy Oh.

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Speaker 7: I live by a railroad track and I have seen

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Speaker 7: it with my own eyes.

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Speaker 8: But what about a wild coyote walk in.

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Speaker 6: The fence line and coming after mine little five pound

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Speaker 6: Heinz fifty seven dog.

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Speaker 4: Yeah right, I got one of those Henes fifty seven's myself. Well,

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Speaker 4: you say what about it. What can you do?

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Speaker 5: Good?

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Speaker 9: Well, I wanted I'm going to shoot it. It's understood.

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Speaker 9: Buzz well yeah, let me let me tell you what's

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Speaker 9: involved here. And I've had this case. And first of all,

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Speaker 9: d n R says that coyotes are considered a nuisance

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Speaker 9: animal and can be can be killed as nuisance animals

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Speaker 9: at at at any time of the year. There's not

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Speaker 9: a hunting season for instance, they're they're they're considered nuisance

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Speaker 9: and for that reason can be shot legally. However, the

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Speaker 9: separate problem that you potentially have is exactly what I

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Speaker 9: mentioned earlier in the show, which is the argument that

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Speaker 9: if it's railroad track, you know it runs alongside or

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Speaker 9: near a residential area, and somebody reports a gunshot, you

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Speaker 9: may have discharging a firearm within the city limits, which

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Speaker 9: typically just an ordnance violation that means it's just a fine.

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Speaker 9: But then separately, you've got potentially criminal recklessness with a

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Speaker 9: deadly weapon to the extent that your gun shot shooting

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Speaker 9: the coyote or at the coyote, especially if you miss,

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Speaker 9: and that bullet goes bouncing off the ground or a

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Speaker 9: railroad tire or whatever it might be, and travels some

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Speaker 9: other place. If that shot endangers a human being who's

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Speaker 9: in the area, then that's prosecutable as criminal recklessness with

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Speaker 9: a deadly weapon. And I've had that case in terms

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Speaker 9: of people actually having criminal charges filed against them. That's why,

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Speaker 9: for instance, it's the same discussion people talk about warning shots.

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Speaker 9: You know, there are people out there still not particularly

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Speaker 9: smart people, but there are people out there that talk about, oh, yeah, well,

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Speaker 9: you should always fire a warning shot. You know, if

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Speaker 9: there's someone who's potentially threatening you or you're scared of

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Speaker 9: a potential attack. Warning shots are a really really really

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Speaker 9: bad idea. And it's a different issue, but it's a

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Speaker 9: big overlap here, which is that I've seen now multiple

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Speaker 9: people I've defended the cases. I have a client right

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Speaker 9: now and appending case. Someone was trying to break into

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Speaker 9: his car. He saw him on a security camera. Car

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Speaker 9: was under a car port in a residential neighborhood. He

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Speaker 9: walked out there the guy was trying to get into

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Speaker 9: his car. He yelled at the guy, expecting him to

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Speaker 9: run away. The guy did not run away. He just

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Speaker 9: stood up and stared at the guy at my client.

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Speaker 9: My client then pointed the gun at the ground off

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Speaker 9: to the side of the driveway and shot around into

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Speaker 9: the soft dirt next to the driveway. That's when the

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Speaker 9: other guy took off running. My client called nine one

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Speaker 9: one said, want to let you know there was a

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Speaker 9: guy here. I've got him on my security camera. He

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Speaker 9: was trying to break into my car. He was acting

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Speaker 9: erratically in the sense that he essentially challenged me, didn't

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Speaker 9: run away, just stared at me when I told him

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Speaker 9: to get away from my car, and I fired a

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Speaker 9: warning shot, at which point he left.

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Speaker 4: They did. They charged my client with criminal recklessens with

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Speaker 4: the weapon for firing the shot, saying well, that shot

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Speaker 4: could have been dangered someone in the area. Is that

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Speaker 4: is that?

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Speaker 8: Is that?

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Speaker 4: Is that a good case? By the way, are they

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Speaker 4: gonna win that case? Get into that in just a

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Speaker 4: bit as a bit of a separate topic. But but

431
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 4: so there's a there's there's there's a risk there was

432
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 4: what I would be prepared to do now with a coyote,

433
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 4: And and and we've seen rabid coyotes certainly be aggressive.

434
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 4: The stories of that, I've certainly not observed that personally.

435
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 4: We've seen very very rare situations of coyotes being aggressive

436
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 4: toward towards human beings, many many more stories of dog bites,

437
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 4: but I would certainly be prepared because that's something I

438
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 4: think about. You know, my dog often wants to go

439
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 4: out at three or four in the morning. That's usually

440
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 4: because I've already gotten up in the middle of the night.

441
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 4: Being an old man, that tends to happen I get

442
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 4: up in the middle of the night. Well, then the

443
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 4: dog wants to go out, and I'll sit there, and

444
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 4: I've got a high lumin flashlight there on the night stand,

445
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 4: and and I have my master bedrooms that door that

446
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 4: leads right out onto the deck on the first floor,

447
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 4: and I tend to open the door, let the dog out,

448
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 4: and shine light in the backyard, just see if I

449
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 4: see any little eyes reflecting back at me, because I

450
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 4: certainly have heard coyotes in and around my neighborhood before,

451
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,679
Speaker 4: and I've thought about, all right, well, I let the

452
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 4: dog out. I don't see any coyotes. But then I

453
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 4: hear the dog yelping and barking, and in some indication

454
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 4: of its being attacked. I run out there, and I

455
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 4: have a suppressed firearm next to my bed. When I

456
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 4: go to sleep, I grab my suppressed firearm. I run

457
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 4: out there and there's a coyote that's got a hold

458
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 4: of my dogs trying to drag it off. Do I

459
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 4: run a risk of being prosecuted if I shoot that

460
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 4: coyote in my neighborhood. Yes, that's the whole point with

461
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 4: this discussion. I do bear that risk. So what I

462
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 4: would be absolutely prepared to do in that circumstance to

463
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 4: explain to any responding police officers exactly the angle of

464
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 4: my shot, what was beyond my shot. That's one of

465
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 4: the basic rules of gun safety, right know your target

466
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 4: and what's beyond. We actually rephrase that a little bit

467
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 4: to say anything aligned with your target in terms of

468
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 4: anything between you and your target, your target and anything

469
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 4: past it. And nicely, there's a nice, big privacy mound

470
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 4: behind my house that kind of separates my neighborhood from

471
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 4: the adjoining neighborhood, and it's kind of a nice natural berm.

472
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 4: Now I don't use it as a shooting berm. I

473
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 4: can't say I've never thought about it for obvious reasons

474
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 4: in a residential neighborhood, but I would be prepared to

475
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 4: say the direction of my shot I knew was absolutely safe.

476
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 4: I was confident in my shot. I've got a nice

477
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 4: firearm with a nice optic, I had a light on it,

478
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 4: I had my target illuminated. I knew there was a

479
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 4: very nice high mound behind my target, which was the coyote.

480
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 4: And I knew I was already shooting from an elevated position,

481
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 4: either off my deck or because I'm taller than the coyote.

482
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 4: I knew shooting down with a burn behind me, it

483
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 4: was one hundred percent safe. I didn't endanger anyone. I

484
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 4: would be prepared to make that statement if and when

485
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 4: I gave a statement to police, which is a whole

486
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: another discussion. We'll leave that perhaps for another day. But

487
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 4: you have to be prepared to say that what I

488
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 4: did was not only necessary under the circumstances, but did

489
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 4: not endanger any other human being. And so it's a

490
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 4: great question by Buzz. But again, and I tease this issue,

491
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 4: which I'll go into here after the break. What if

492
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 4: I'm just getting ready to go on a walk. I'm

493
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 4: gonna walk my dog, or I'm going on a walk

494
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 4: with my wife or my granddaughter. Like a lot of

495
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 4: people listen to this show, I'm going to be carrying

496
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 4: my handgun. Should I think about any other methods of

497
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 4: self defense, realizing anytime you're out walking or bicycling or

498
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 4: jogging or whatever it might be, Yes, there's a chance

499
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: running into an aggressive animal. I think much less than

500
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 4: when I was a kid. When I was a kid,

501
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 4: nobody much kept control of their dogs. The neighborhood dogs

502
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 4: just ran around, and some are more aggressive than others.

503
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 4: I think depends on I'm sure the area you live in,

504
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 4: but I think for the most part, people are much

505
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 4: more responsible in training and keeping control of their pets.

506
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 4: But it's still a risk. We all hear about it.

507
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 4: A lot of people discuss all the time, and then

508
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 4: you have the whole separate discussion of a wild animal

509
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 4: like buzz just mentioned a coyote, And coyotes are all

510
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 4: the time, are around all over the place. I see them,

511
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 4: I started to say, all the time, just driving from

512
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 4: Scienceville to Carmel to go from my house to my office,

513
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 4: I see them downtown Carmel. So it's not like you

514
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 4: have to live much of the country to have a

515
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 4: concern with coyote. Is there anything else you could do?

516
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 4: Should you give that some thought before you go on

517
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 4: your bicycle rider for your job? That's all we'll get

518
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 4: into as well as go back to the phone lines

519
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 4: when we come back, says Guy Ralford on The Gun

520
00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 4: Guy Show on ninety three.

521
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 10: WIBs, your rights, your responsibilities, your guns.

522
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: This is the Gun Guy, Guy Ralford on WYDC.

523
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 4: And welcome back. I'm Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy

524
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 4: Show on ninety three. WYBC started talking a little bit

525
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 4: about the case of Oreo, the assault cat. It was

526
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 4: I don't need to laugh about Oreo no longer being

527
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 4: with us. By the way, I'm even though I'm not

528
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 4: particularly a cat lover, I'm certainly a pet lover and

529
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 4: uh and I don't make light of anyone losing a

530
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 4: pat domestic animal, and it's certainly an animal they're close to.

531
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 4: But what started this discussion is the story coming out

532
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 4: of Beach Grove of an aggressive cat allegedly attacking a

533
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 4: gentleman in Beach Grove and him acting quote unquote in

534
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 4: self defense in shooting and killing that cat. And by

535
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 4: the way, I'm a little surprised that Jonathan Moser, who's

536
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 4: the person who's now being prosecuted for intentionally killing a

537
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 4: domestic animals, not also being charged with criminal recklessness with

538
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 4: a deadly weapon. That is very common in cases where

539
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 4: somebody shoots at or shoots a domestic animal or or

540
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 4: anything else frankly in a residential area, and it's early

541
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 4: in the case you may see amended charges. But on

542
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 4: the issue of being able to protect yourself from aggressive animals,

543
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 4: I mean that comes up and where I cover this

544
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 4: exact topic in my gun law class, and I talk

545
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 4: about how self defense doesn't actually apply defending yourself against

546
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 4: an aggresive animal. People say, well, what do you mean,

547
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 4: I just have to consit there and watch it while

548
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 4: a dog choos my leg off or attacks my granddaughter

549
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 4: or my wife. And I said, well no, I said,

550
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 4: you know, do what you need to do. And again

551
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 4: that's where the doctrine of necessity is such an important point.

552
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 4: But in addition to that, I always recommend, and something

553
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 4: I do personally is carry less lethal means of self

554
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 4: defense when you're going on that bike, ride, or walk

555
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 4: or jog or whatever it might be. And what am

556
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 4: I talking about there? I am a big fan of

557
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 4: a striking weapon like a collapsebule baton. I keep one

558
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 4: in the map. Well, I don't know if everybody still

559
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 4: calls those map wells. I grew up calling them that

560
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 4: the pocket on the inside of your your driver's side

561
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 4: door and a matching pocket on the other side. But

562
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 4: at my driver's side door we always called that a map. Well.

563
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 4: But anyway, I have two things in that I have

564
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 4: a canister of OC spray pepper spray, which is very

565
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:51,239
Speaker 4: very effective, And I have a collassful baton, and I

566
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 4: have a belly band holster, and separately I have a

567
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 4: something called a flister Enigma to carry a gun with.

568
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 4: But also I have the means to carry a classical

569
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 4: baton and some OC spray OC spray in my pocket.

570
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 4: Classical baton usually in a pocket in the holster when

571
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 4: I'm going on a walk or a bicycle ride. Doesn't

572
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 4: weigh much, not a problem having it in your pocket.

573
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 4: And let me tell you, OC spray is tough on dogs.

574
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 4: It is very very tough on dogs. And part of

575
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 4: the reason for that, and I've seen the after effects

576
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 4: of this, is it's bad enough in a human where

577
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 4: it gets in your eyes and you're breathing it. Now

578
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 4: you can't breathe, you can't see, your whole face is burning,

579
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 4: your nose is burning, your mouth burning, your lungs are

580
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 4: burning and you're salivating uncontrollably. It just shuts you down.

581
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,439
Speaker 4: In An animal with a coat with fur osprays gets

582
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 4: in their coat around their eyes and it lingers, it stays.

583
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 4: I've seen dogs with their entire face shaved off, has

584
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 4: got hit with oc spray and they couldn't adequately get

585
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 4: it out of its coat. Now, I've also heard stories

586
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 4: of animals, and I think some breeds tend to predominate

587
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 4: when you hear these stories. The roci spray's not effective.

588
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 4: That's where a striking weamon makes a lot of sense,

589
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 4: Like a colass baton across the bridge of the nose

590
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 4: going to be effective many more times than not. So

591
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 4: I'm a big fan of having alternative means of self defense,

592
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 4: less lethal means of self defense and advocate, especially if

593
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 4: you're going out in a residential area. And with that,

594
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 4: I'm all pass the time for a breakcare. It's time

595
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 4: to get out at the top of the hour. We'll

596
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 4: be back in just a bit. This is Guy Ralford

597
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 4: on The Gun Guy Show on ninety three WIBC.

598
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of

599
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: a free state, the right of the people to keep

600
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: in their arms shall not be infringed. This is the

601
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: second Amendment, and this is the gun.

602
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 2: Guy boom boom boom bang bang bang bang boom boom

603
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: boom boom bang.

604
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: Bang boo, Guy Ralford on ninety three WYPC.

605
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 4: And welcome back for hour number two The Gun Guys

606
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 4: Show here on ninety three WIVC. Glad that you're here.

607
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 4: Been talking about a shooting in Beach Grove and actually

608
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 4: spend a lot more time on it than i'd bland.

609
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 5: But it.

610
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 4: Raised the question of whether you can claim self defense

611
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 4: when you're attacked by an animal, and the answer is no,

612
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 4: Are there other legal defenses you have? Yes, That's what

613
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 4: we covered in the first hour, and as well as

614
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 4: go into the phone lines taking some questions, which we're

615
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 4: going to go right back to here in a minute.

616
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 4: Separate question though, and this always comes up in my

617
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 4: gun law class, and people never liked the answer, which

618
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 4: is all right, well, separate question. Now it's not someone

619
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 4: attacking me or a loved one.

620
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 5: And my need.

621
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 4: To defend ourselves. What if it's a neighbor or some

622
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 4: other person who's trying to kill Miami. This comes up

623
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 4: all the time. I get this question almost every single

624
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 4: time I teach my gun law class. I have a

625
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 4: neighbor who hates my dog. He threatens my dog. He

626
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 4: says he's going to shoot my dog. If he's trying

627
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 4: to shoot my dog, can I shoot my neighbor? Question

628
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 4: I get all the time, and people don't ever like

629
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 4: the answer, and people get upset with me, and people

630
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 4: without actually knowing the law would I argue with me

631
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 4: that I can't possibly be right. But in Indiana, like

632
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 4: most states, you're domestic animals, and by the way, your

633
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 4: live stock follow in the same category. And people get

634
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 4: upset about this, and it's completely understandable. I don't blame them.

635
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: People say, wait a minute, you know my livestock as

636
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 4: as a farmer or a rancher, that's my livelihood. My

637
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 4: family doesn't eat and I don't put food on the table.

638
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 4: They're my livelihood and how I sustain my family. But

639
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 4: your animals, including your domestic animals and your livestock, and

640
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 4: Indiana just just considered your property. And in Indiana you

641
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 4: can use reasonable force to defend your property. I'm not

642
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,479
Speaker 4: talking about your home. That's castle doctrine. That's a whole

643
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 4: different discussion. So take your home out of the discussion

644
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 4: for a moment. But your domestic animals and your livestock

645
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 4: are considered your personal property, like your wallet or your

646
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 4: jewelry or your car. Now that raises another question, because

647
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 4: you're occupied motor vehicles is included within the castle, doctor,

648
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 4: but we'll leave that aside. Somebody's just trying to steal

649
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 4: your car. Somebody's trying to shoot your dog. Somebody's trying

650
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 4: to to to break into your mailbox to steal your

651
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 4: mail because you've got Amazon packages in it or whatnot.

652
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 4: Can you shoot them? The answer is no. You can

653
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 4: use reasonable force to defend your property, but you cannot

654
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 4: use deadly forces. Again, I'm not talking about your home.

655
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 4: It's an important distinction. So people say, wait a minute,

656
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 4: my neighbor is actively taking shots at my dog. You

657
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 4: telling me I can't shoot my neighbor. The answer is no,

658
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 4: you cannot, and nobody likes hearing it, but they need

659
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 4: to hear it because what I don't want to get

660
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 4: is the call from you and from jail saying, well,

661
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 4: the neighbor took a shot at my dog, so I

662
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 4: shot him. He's dead. Now I'm being prosecuted for murder

663
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 4: or manslaughter, unfortunate circumstance all around. Do I empathize, of course,

664
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 4: As I've said more than once during this show, I'm

665
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 4: an animal lover and a dog owner myself, and I

666
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 4: feel strongly about it. But Indian law is clear on

667
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 4: the point. Right now, let's go to the phone lines.

668
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 4: I'll tell you what Keith has been on hold forever.

669
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 4: And Keith, thanks so much for your patience. Man, Welcome

670
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 4: to the Gun Guy Show.

671
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 6: Hey, thanks for taking my call. Sure, with all the

672
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 6: violence who've had downtown, it seems like, maybe not all

673
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 6: of it, but a lot of it is by underage

674
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 6: people caring weapons. Well, my question is how does the

675
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 6: police officer be proactive about that? Can he just come

676
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 6: up to somebody who he thinks is under eighteen and

677
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 6: asked you bardy and explaining how that works.

678
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's something that I both posted about on social media.

679
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 4: And Keith, again, thanks for your patients and thanks for

680
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 4: your question. I posted about this and also discussed it

681
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 4: last Monday. I was filling in for Hammer on The

682
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 4: Hammer and Nigel Show, and I was lucky enough while

683
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 4: I was co hosting to have both Chief Bailey from

684
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 4: IMPD on as a guest on the Hammer Nudgel Show,

685
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 4: and we had Rick Snyder from the FOP Fraternal Order

686
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,959
Speaker 4: or Police, who also was on it, and I asked

687
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 4: both of them about this and the way the law

688
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 4: works on this, and listen, there are Fourth Amendment protections

689
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 4: here to a little lesser degree. The Second Amendment it

690
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 4: certainly applies as well. But can the police just walk

691
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 4: up to somebody and ask them for ID for essentially

692
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 4: no purpose. No, that officer has to have a reasonable

693
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 4: suspicion that you're committing a crime or an ordnance violation

694
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 4: or an infraction. For instance, Indian has a failure to

695
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 4: identify law. If I get pulled over for speeding, Okay,

696
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 4: it was a valid stop because the officer saw me

697
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: doing seventy five and a fifty five, they walk up,

698
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 4: Can they ask for my ID? Yes? Do I have

699
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 4: to give it to them? Guess I don't have idaf

700
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 4: to give them my name? I believe it's name and address.

701
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 4: And there's a separate crime. It's called failure to identify

702
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 4: and that's just for that infraction of speeding. That's where

703
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 4: your failure to identify law comes in. And again, whenever

704
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 4: I mention this, and I listen, I get it, but

705
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 4: people come back and they want to argue with me

706
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 4: and say, oh yeah great. You know, now we're gonna

707
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 4: have police just randomly asking people for their papers, you know,

708
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 4: equating Nazi Germany out of the whole thing. Now, it

709
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 4: has to be based on a reasonable suspicion of committing

710
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 4: a crime, an ordnance violation or infraction. And what is

711
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 4: violation or curfew in downtown Indianapolis. It's an ordinance violation.

712
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 4: There's an ordinance in Indianapolis City kindt of council that

713
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 4: says after certain hours, you can't be downtown as a juvenile,

714
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 4: as a miner. Is someone under eighteen? If someone reasonably

715
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 4: appears to be under eighteen, can police officers detained them

716
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 4: and asked for ID. Yes, under the current state of

717
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 4: the law, they can. That's not a Fourth Amendment violation

718
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 4: because they have that reasonable suspicion of that ordinance violation

719
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 4: and as part of that they can ask for ID

720
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 4: and failure to provide ID is a separate is a

721
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 4: separate actual misdemeanor if they then are established to be

722
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 4: a juvenile in violation of the curfew. And I asked

723
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 4: Chief Bailey this directly, I said, is certainly my belief

724
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 4: that the law under the Fourth Amendment allows that juvenile

725
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 4: to be searched prior to them being taken in, and

726
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 4: Chief Bailey referred to them as safe and secure locations.

727
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 4: I'm not sure exactly what locations are talking about. Didn't

728
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 4: sound like necessarily the juvenile detention facility, but maybe it is,

729
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 4: or maybe they had some other locations all primed and

730
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 4: ready to take juveniles that they picked up. And this

731
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 4: was over the last weekend when we had the WNBA

732
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 4: All Star Game and we had Black Expo in town

733
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 4: and the police force in downtown Indy. I'll tell you what.

734
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 4: I went out walking around. I was downtown for another

735
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 4: two three hours after my show, and the police presence

736
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 4: in downtown Indy was like nothing I've ever seen. I've

737
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 4: been down here for the Super Bowl, I've been down

738
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 4: here for NCAA Championships multiple times. I've been down here

739
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 4: for a lot of big events, and I've never seen

740
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 4: a police presence like I saw this past weekend. Just

741
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 4: a week ago today, after my show, I went down

742
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 4: saw my friends at burn Cigar bar Uh and was

743
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 4: walking around the circle in between here and two three

744
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 4: blocks south of Meridian Street. I've never seen a police

745
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 4: presence like that, But I asked Chief Bailey because he said,

746
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 4: they have these secure and safe in secure locations he

747
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 4: called them they were going to take juveniles to after

748
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 4: you know, if they're in violation of the curfew. And

749
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 4: I said, when you take them to that safe in

750
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 4: secure location, do you search them first? He said absolutely,

751
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 4: My officers are never going to put someone in their

752
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 4: police are without having searched them. I said, okay, And

753
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 4: if they find a weapon of firearm on that juvenile

754
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 4: and you're under eighteen, you cannot carry a handgun or

755
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 4: otherwise possess a firearm. Outside certain exceptions. You can take

756
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 4: a class, you can be supervised by a parent, you

757
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 4: can be at an established shooting range. There are all

758
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 4: kinds of exceptions. But running around by yourself downtown or

759
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 4: with your buddies, you can't carry a firearm as a juvenile.

760
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 4: It's illegal. It's a separate it's a crime, and that's

761
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: not infraction. That's a crime. So I said, then if

762
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 4: you then are able to legally search them having been

763
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 4: stopped for the infraction, or excuse me, the ordinance violation

764
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 4: of a curfew violation, and you search them and find

765
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 4: a firearm. Isn't that a separate crime. Yes? Won't you

766
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 4: then arrest them for that crime. Yes, and that'll be

767
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 4: turned over to the Mary County Prosecutor's office for the

768
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 4: prosecution of that crime. Now, though in all likelihood go

769
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 4: through the juvenile justice system, you've all heard they go

770
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,959
Speaker 4: to JUVI quote unquote, and maybe they don't fear JIV.

771
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 4: That's a whole nother discussion. But in the meantime, you've

772
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 4: taken that kid and that gun off the streets of

773
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 4: downtown Indianapolis. And listen, nobody cares about constitutional rights more

774
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 4: than I do. I've got a big chuck of the

775
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 4: Constitution tattooed on my right arm. I defend constitutional rights

776
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 4: for a living. I don't take those rights lightly. And

777
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 4: I'm not advocating for walking around randomly throwing people up

778
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 4: against the wall and searching them and detaining them absent

779
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 4: the legal standard of reasonable suspicion of the commission of

780
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 4: a crime, an ordinance violation, or an infraction. That's the

781
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 4: current standard. And do I think that could and if enforced,

782
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 4: will result in kids who were violating curfew more Importantly,

783
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 4: kids were illegally armed and downtown with the intent to

784
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 4: commit violent crimes. Does have the potential to get them

785
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 4: off the streets. Yes. Now, separate question that I asked

786
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 4: Chief Bailey, and then Rick Snyder from FOP brought this

787
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 4: up immediately when we talked to him afterward because he

788
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,760
Speaker 4: was listening to Nigel and My interview of Chief Bailey.

789
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 4: I said, listen, the police presence was like nothing I've

790
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 4: ever seen in downtown Indianapolis last weekend. And he said,

791
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 4: oh my, yes, we canceled leave, we canceled time off,

792
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 4: and we had a presence that was intended to be

793
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 4: extreme in downtown Indianapolis. That wasn't his word, I'm paraphrasing.

794
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 4: And I said, okay, I said, is that sustainable? Is

795
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 4: that going to be a typical September Saturday night in

796
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 4: downtown Indianapolis? And Chief said, sustainable is exactly the issue.

797
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 4: And the answer to your question is no, it's not sustainable.

798
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 4: We can't have that kind of presence. We simply don't

799
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 4: have the resources and a man power for that kind

800
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 4: of presence. And then Rick Snyder sees on exactly that

801
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 4: issue that goes to by the way, the fact that

802
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 4: IMPD is and don't quote me on the number, I

803
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 4: believe I've heard Rick Nider say somewhere around four hundred

804
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 4: officers short on where they need to be from a

805
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 4: staffing perspective. And they have the budget, they have the spots.

806
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 4: They're having trouble filling them, is my understanding. But it's

807
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 4: not sustainable, and so will we see that as a resource?

808
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 4: Well do well we see more of these violent, armed

809
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 4: juveniles run around downtown Indy creating havoc and engaged in

810
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 4: more shootings after there's not that overwhelming police presence that

811
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 4: we saw last weekend. I certainly hope not if we

812
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 4: do enforcement of the curfew law curfew Ordinance more accurately said,

813
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 4: is certainly a weapon and a legitimate constitutional weapon the

814
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 4: police have. And that's exactly what we heard from Chief

815
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 4: Bailey and Rick Snyder as well last weekend. So that

816
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 4: was a long answer to Key's question. And we've gone

817
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 4: past the quarter hours time for a break. We'll go

818
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,359
Speaker 4: back to the phone lines when we come back. Mike

819
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 4: has called, Anthony's called, and we'll take other calls as well.

820
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 4: Three one seven two three nine ninety three ninety three

821
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 4: three one seven, ninety three, ninety three. This is Guy

822
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 4: Ralford on The Gun Guy Show on ninety three WIBC.

823
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 1: Well, he got a gun Guy, Guy Ralford on ninety

824
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: three WYBC.

825
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 4: And welcome back. I'm Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy

826
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 4: Show on ninety three WIBC. Tell you, Well, let's go

827
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 4: back to the phone lines. Mike's been on hold for

828
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 4: quite a while. Mike, Well, thanks for your patients as well. Man,

829
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 4: Welcome to the Gun Guy Show.

830
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 11: Hey guy, I have a Fourth Amendment question direct. Well,

831
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 11: you're relating to the second. If I'm driving in my

832
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 11: car and I get pulled over, if I have my

833
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 11: firearm walked and they walked compartment within my car, and

834
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 11: I tell the officer I'm not trying to be sneaky

835
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 11: or anything like that, can he get into my walcked compartment,

836
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 11: glove compartment or whatever without a warrant? And can he

837
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 11: use the reason I guess officers safety in order to

838
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 11: do that.

839
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,479
Speaker 4: It's a great question, Mike, and there was a little

840
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 4: bit of uncertainty about that until a case came down

841
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 4: I believe it was twenty ten called Melvin Washington v.

842
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 4: State in Indiana. You can just google this and read

843
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 4: the discussion from the Indiana Court of Appeals. But it's

844
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 4: Melvin Washington v. State and in that case decided by

845
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 4: the Indiana Court of Appeals, I think has changed the

846
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 4: way Indiana police officers are trained in the way they

847
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 4: approach firearms and vehicles. As well as the fact that

848
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 4: that firearms and vehicles are just so much more common

849
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 4: than they were even fifteen, twenty, thirty, forty years ago,

850
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 4: officers have had to be better trained in the law.

851
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 4: And what happened in the Melvin Washington case, and this

852
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 4: bears directly on your question, is that Melvin got pulled

853
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 4: over for something pretty minor, like a headlight being out

854
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 4: or something, and he had his license to carry, and

855
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 4: obviously this is before constitutional carry, but he volunteered to

856
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 4: the officer that he had his license to carry and

857
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,919
Speaker 4: had a handgun in the car, and in this case,

858
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 4: it was under his seat, and he told the officer that,

859
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,439
Speaker 4: and he produced his license to carry, and the officer said, well,

860
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 4: I'm going to have to take possession of that gun

861
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 4: from my safety and listen, I've heard a lot of

862
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 4: stories from a lot of people that have called my

863
00:51:54,560 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 4: office or sent me emails over the years, and that's

864
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 4: exactly the story I hear on the state police. I

865
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 4: think for a generation, I think they were trained to

866
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 4: do this. If they weren't trained to do this, then

867
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 4: it certainly became sop just in communication among the officers,

868
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 4: because I can't profess personal knowledge it's exactly how they

869
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 4: were trained. But I heard it all the time. State

870
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 4: police officer, I'm gonna to take possession of that firearm

871
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 4: from my safety. In this case, Melvin clearly said I

872
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 4: don't consent to that. When the officer said, well, I

873
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 4: don't need your consent, I can search the vehicle and

874
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 4: I can retrieve that firearm, take possession of that firearm

875
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 4: for officer safety, for my safety during the stop, and

876
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 4: that's what he did. He pulled Melvin out of the

877
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 4: car and I believe parked him on the curb or

878
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 4: back in his car, and then searched the vehicle and

879
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 4: found the gun, but also in the process, under the

880
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:54,399
Speaker 4: same seat, found drugs. And the question became, was that

881
00:52:54,520 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 4: search of Melvin's vehicle constitutional unto the Fourth Amendment and

882
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 4: the standard the legal standard that applies here, and it's

883
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 4: very similar to what we were just talking about as

884
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:12,359
Speaker 4: far as a detention on the streets. But in order

885
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 4: for an officer to search the area under the control

886
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 4: of the driver and the driver as part of a

887
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 4: traffic stop, the officer has to have a reasonable articulable suspicion.

888
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 4: That means they can articulate the basis for a reasonable

889
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 4: suspicion that that person is either a danger to the

890
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 4: officer or engaged in criminal activity. And that means criminal activity,

891
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 4: not in fraction or you know, something like your headlight

892
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 4: being out or speeding, it's actual criminal activity. So if

893
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 4: you roll the window down at a big old cloud

894
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 4: of marijuana, smoke rolls out, Okay, Now that officer has

895
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 4: that reasonable suspicion. You know, you pull over and there's

896
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 4: a there's a bag of cash with an exploded dipack

897
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 4: all over the back seat. Okay, now there's that reasonable

898
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 4: suspicion of criminal activity. But there has to be a

899
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 4: reasonable suspicion that either the person's a danger to the

900
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 4: officer or engaged in criminal activity. And here, yes, Melvin

901
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 4: had drugs in the car, but the officer didn't know

902
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 4: that and had no basis for a suspicion of that.

903
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 4: So what they relied upon, what the Attorney General's office

904
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 4: in the appeal relied upon was well, there's a gun

905
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 4: in the car. So as long as there's a gun

906
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 4: in the car, then officer has a reasonable suspicion that

907
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 4: the person is a danger to the officer simply because

908
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 4: of the gun. And that was the argument that police

909
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 4: officers made, for prosecutors made, or the state made in

910
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 4: appeals for the legitimacy of a search. When there's a

911
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 4: gun in the car, or someone reveals, either voluntarily or

912
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 4: an answer to a question, there's a gun in the car, well,

913
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 4: now there's a reasonable suspicion the person's a danger simply

914
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 4: because they have a gun. And the Court of Appeals

915
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 4: in the Melvin Washington case rejected that and said, no,

916
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 4: you know what, the logic really was, honest, law abiding,

917
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 4: non dangerous people carry guns too, and the mere possession

918
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 4: of a firearm alone doesn't establish any basis of danger,

919
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 4: a reasonable suspicion of danger. That a lot of people

920
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 4: who are no danger to an officer whatsoever can have

921
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 4: a gun in the car. And this is particularly true

922
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 4: or a person volunteers that there's a gun in the

923
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 4: car and produces a valid license to carry handgun, and this,

924
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 4: by the way, can be an advantage. I always say,

925
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 4: you know, I fought for ten years to get constitutional

926
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 4: carry passed, and the shouldn't have taken that damn long.

927
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 4: But I'm really proud of the effort that I and

928
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 4: a whole lot of other people put in on that,

929
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 4: including the legislators Bence Mass and Jim Lucas and Jerry Torr,

930
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 4: and many others, Aaron Freeman, It's a long list, Peggy Mayfield,

931
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,640
Speaker 4: there's a bunch and but a lot of folks, the

932
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 4: people at the Indiana State Rifle and Pistol Association, and

933
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 4: I'm very proud of the members of the two Way

934
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 4: Project that I founded in twenty twenty. We showed up

935
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 4: and we got it done. Shouldn't taken that long. But

936
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 4: even with constitutional carry having been passed, ILL always make

937
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 4: the point there's still a lot of good reasons to

938
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 4: have a license. The state shouldn't require you to have

939
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 4: one in order to exercise a constitutional right, but you,

940
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 4: of your own volition may wisely choose to have one

941
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 4: for a whole number of reasons that I also cover

942
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 4: in my Gunlall class, by the way, but one of

943
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 4: them is during a traffic stop being able to immediately

944
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 4: produce that license if you choose to tells that officer

945
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 4: you've passed the background check necessary to get that license,

946
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 4: which on its face establishes that your ownership of a

947
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 4: firearm or possession of a firearm that's in that car

948
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 4: is legal and no danger to that officer. And that's

949
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 4: exactly what the Court of Appeal said to the Melvin

950
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 4: Washington case. Is someone who has a license to carry

951
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 4: and volunteers the license to carry and voluntarily indicates to

952
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 4: that officer there's a gun in the car, that creates

953
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 4: no basis for a reasonable suspicion of danger to that officer.

954
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 4: So the search of Melvin's car was illegal and a

955
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 4: violation of the Fourth Amendment. That's why Mike was totally

956
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 4: smart to phrase his question that way, I have a

957
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 4: Fourth Amendment. Quite that's exactly the question. And so officers now,

958
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 4: I think are much better trained all across the state

959
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 4: to not demand taking possession of firearms. And by the way,

960
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 4: what if an officer doesn't know the law or knows

961
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 4: the law and doesn't care, let me say, well, officer,

962
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 4: I have a licensed to carry, or you have really

963
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 4: no reason to think I'm any sort of danger your officer,

964
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 4: My hands are at ten and two. I told you

965
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 4: about the gun. Oh I'm gonna to take possession of

966
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 4: that gun. First of all, you can always consent to

967
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 4: any violation of your constitutional rights, whether that's Second Amendment

968
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 4: or Fourth Amendment or any other And officers, and I've

969
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:27,440
Speaker 4: talked to a lot officer. I have a lot of

970
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 4: friends who are officers, and I always, I always give

971
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 4: them some grief over this point because I've seen officers

972
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 4: do this way too many times over the years. Officers

973
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 4: use the term i'm going to need to as a way,

974
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 4: I think, to not so honestly be able to say

975
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 4: that you consented to whatever it is they tell you

976
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 4: they're going to need to do. In other words, an

977
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 4: officer says I'm going to need to search your car,

978
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 4: and you say okay, not because you think your permission

979
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 4: is being requested, but because they just told you that's

980
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 4: what they're gonna do. And to the extent you say, oh,

981
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 4: hell no, you're not. Now you're resisting. The next thing

982
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 4: you know, you're getting taste or handcuffed or arrested for resisting.

983
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 4: So I'm gonna need to be careful of all I'm

984
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 4: going to need to I'm going to need to search

985
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 4: your car. I'm gonna need to take possession of that gun. Sir,

986
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 4: if you're acting asking my consent, or ma'am, if you're

987
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 4: asking my consent, the answer is no, I don't consent

988
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 4: to that. I don't need your consent. I'm gonna take

989
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 4: possession of that gun anyway, Sir. You might want to

990
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 4: talk to a supervisor about that. I don't believe that's

991
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 4: a lawful order. Now, is that an argument you're going

992
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 4: to win on the side of the road. No, No,

993
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 4: and hell no. And could you get arrested or taste

994
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 4: or handcuffed or some combination of all the above. If

995
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 4: you just say, oh, hell no, that's a violation of

996
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 4: my constitutional rights. You're not doing what you say you're

997
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 4: going to do. No, how, no way. Yes, could you

998
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 4: get a prosecutor for resisting? Yes? Would that be lawful?

999
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 4: In my mind? Absolutely not. But that's not an argument.

1000
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 4: You went on the side of the road. So I

1001
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 4: would ask the officer to please reconsider and perhaps consider

1002
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 4: calling a supervisor, because I don't believe that's a lawful

1003
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 4: order and I do not consent. Well, I don't need

1004
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 4: your consent. That's what I'm gonna do. Get out of

1005
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 4: the car. You have to sit in my car. Step

1006
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 4: out of the vehicle. I'm taking control of the gun

1007
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 4: that you just told me is on the holster on

1008
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 4: your hip or whatever it is. By the way, what

1009
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 4: if they just say, hand me the gun. Do I

1010
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 4: want to be handling a loaded gun on the side

1011
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 4: of the road with a police officer outside my car. No,

1012
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 4: I don't want to have a gun in my hand

1013
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 4: when the next police officer pulls up, but it's in

1014
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 4: a holster on my hip. Well, unholster and hand me

1015
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,200
Speaker 4: that gun, sir. I'd really prefer not to handle the

1016
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 4: gun here on the side of the road. I don't

1017
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 4: consent to you seizing my gun from me. I believe

1018
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 4: this is unconstitutional, but I would request man, I please

1019
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 4: get out of the vehicle and you can take the

1020
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 4: gun out of my holster. I don't want to handle

1021
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 4: it here on the side of the road. Hell no,

1022
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 4: do what I'm telling you to do. Tough spot. I

1023
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 4: don't want to handle that gun on side of the road.

1024
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 4: Say well, sir, May I clear it before I hand

1025
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 4: it to you? For safety sake? I don't know if

1026
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 4: that officer knows how to clear my gun or not

1027
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 4: here or she may be an expert in handling their

1028
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 4: glock seventeen, may not have any idea how to clear

1029
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 4: my twenty eleven or six two two nine. They may hold.

1030
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 4: They may be the armorer for their department. They may

1031
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 4: be the head of the swat team and teach firearms

1032
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 4: marksmanship and safety to every other officer on the force.

1033
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 4: I don't know, but I would ask if I could

1034
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 4: clear it. Not an optimal situation either. I don't want

1035
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 4: to be handling a damn gun in the car with

1036
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 4: officers around, but if that's a position they put you in.

1037
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 4: But what I would document throughout the process while not

1038
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 4: saying hell no at any point because that's not going

1039
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 4: to end well on the side of the road saying

1040
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 4: I don't consent to this or or ma'am, but I'm

1041
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 4: going to do what you tell me to do. At

1042
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 4: the end of the day, I believe what you're doing

1043
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 4: is unconstitutional and I'm reserving my rights. Now do I

1044
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 4: want to go into some big lecture on my rights

1045
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 4: on the side of the road. Now, it's not going

1046
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 4: to get you anywhere, and probably just piss them off.

1047
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 4: But that's the that's the that's the position that poorly

1048
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,919
Speaker 4: trained officers put you in if they're demanding to do something. Now,

1049
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 4: what if there's some reasonable suspicion that you're a danger

1050
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 4: to the officer, And they can talk about things like, well,

1051
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 4: you're sweating when it's forty degrees outside, and or you

1052
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 4: wouldn't show your hands, or you know the infamous furtive gestures. Furtive?

1053
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 4: What's furtive?

1054
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 5: Me?

1055
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 4: That means something indicating deception or guilt. What's a furtive

1056
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 4: facial expressions or furtive gestures? The officer can't just say that,

1057
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 4: he has to describe them, but it can put They

1058
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 4: can come up with some argument for why, separate from

1059
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 4: you simply having a gun, you constituted a danger to

1060
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 4: that officer. That's all things. Those are all things that

1061
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 4: can be tested in court. So that's a long damn

1062
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 4: answer to a really good question we got. But from

1063
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 4: the gentleman I believe was Keith, I'm way past the

1064
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 4: bottom of the air. We got to take a quick

1065
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:14,479
Speaker 4: break here for news and to pay the bills. We'll

1066
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 4: be back for what's probably gonna be a pretty short

1067
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 4: segment here in just a bit, and we'll get to

1068
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 4: the other folks who are still on the phone line

1069
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 4: when we come back. By the way, I think that

1070
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 4: was in fact Mike who had that awesome question. I'll

1071
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 4: go back to the phone lines when we come back.

1072
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 4: This is Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy Show on

1073
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 4: ninety three WIBC.

1074
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: He's a Second Amendment attorney, he's an NRA certified firearms instructor.

1075
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: He's the Gun Guy Guy Ralford on three WYPCY.

1076
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 4: Welcome back. I'm Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy Show

1077
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 4: on ninety three WIBC. I've kind of screwed up our

1078
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 4: timing here a little bit of a way long in

1079
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 4: that last segment, but I'll tell you what. Anthony's also

1080
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 4: been on hold forever. Let's go back to the phone

1081
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 4: lines Anthony again. Thanks for your patience too, man. Welcome

1082
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 4: to the Gun Guy Show.

1083
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, good evening, guy. Yes, your your Twitter posting on

1084
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 5: Oreo the cat certainly attracted some attention. Uh, some of

1085
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 5: it not necessarily desirable. Yeah, but you know, I've actually

1086
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 5: been attacked by some very large dogs before, most notably

1087
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 5: Wimerners can be rather aggressive, and uh I managed to

1088
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 5: handle managed to handle. One of them got got him

1089
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 5: off of my ankle, but you know, I had torn

1090
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 5: it open, and the dog owner was just absolutely livid

1091
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:42,600
Speaker 5: that he was going to have to have that dog

1092
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 5: caged up to make sure it didn't have didn't have rabies.

1093
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 5: He was He was absolutely livid with me anyway, he

1094
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,320
Speaker 5: threatened me as a matter of fact on that. But

1095
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 5: I've also had had dog. Uh some wimerners in her

1096
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 5: neighbor had fortunately no longer a neighbor kept on getting loose.

1097
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:06,160
Speaker 5: The kids lot them moose. She'd let them moose, and

1098
01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 5: they actually attacked the cocker spaniel that I had at

1099
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 5: the time and started ripping the cocker spaniel apart. And

1100
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 5: it took me with a tui for to finally get

1101
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 5: them away. And the cop when he showed up, said

1102
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 5: what on earth did you try to do? Try intervening

1103
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 5: with those dogs, And it was like, well, I wasn't

1104
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 5: gonna let them. I wan't gonna let him kill my

1105
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 5: cocker spaniel. And he said you were crazy, but basically

1106
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 5: gave her warning if they ever got loose again. They

1107
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 5: were I'm bounding them. They were really vicious, but you know,

1108
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 5: it's then I've been out in the county roads cycling

1109
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 5: on a road bike, you know where you're moving a

1110
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 5: pasteline with other cyclists at twenty to twenty five miles

1111
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 5: an hour. Carrying a firearm while doing that is not

1112
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 5: really feasible. So I do second the motion on carrying

1113
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 5: pepper spray, which some of us started doing. And we

1114
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 5: would encounter some very aggressive dogs out in the corn

1115
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 5: and bean seals out now in the middle of you know,

1116
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 5: the corns, corn and bean fialds, And every time you

1117
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 5: call the sheriff, they go, oh, they're not our dogs.

1118
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 5: We don't own any dogs. They're not our dogs. And

1119
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 5: you see them come right around from where their barn

1120
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 5: is every single time you rode by. So what we

1121
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 5: found out was that the fever spray or whatever it

1122
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 5: was it you call it, yeah, and you need one

1123
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 5: that can give you a stream, not just a big

1124
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 5: wide spray you want to give us.

1125
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you raised a good point about oc spray,

1126
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 4: which I call it. And I have some, uh that

1127
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 4: I have little pocket ones that are called pom pom,

1128
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 4: which I always laughably say stands for pocket full of misery.

1129
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 4: And those just can sit right there in your front

1130
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 4: pocket or your jeans or shorts or whatever it might be.

1131
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 4: And then I have a larger canister for the map

1132
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 4: level of my car from a company called Fox. And

1133
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 4: one thing I really like about each of those is

1134
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 4: they come out in a in a stream that projects

1135
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 4: some good distance. I mean, I'm talking, you know, fifteen

1136
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 4: feet or so that comes out in a steady stream,

1137
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 4: and that's exactly what you want one so you can

1138
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 4: aim it and so you're not just getting a light

1139
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 4: you know, light particles floating around in the air. You

1140
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 4: can aim it in some concentration. And by the way,

1141
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 4: you know, if you know how to do this, I've

1142
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:25,600
Speaker 4: taken some courses in the use of ice oc spray.

1143
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 4: You do it, it's called a Z pattern. You go

1144
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 4: right above the eyes here I'm talking mainly about a human,

1145
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 4: but I don't know why it would be different on

1146
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,640
Speaker 4: a dog above the eyes. So it drips down into

1147
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 4: the eyes, then down across the eyes on the down

1148
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 4: slash of the Z, and then right over across right

1149
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 4: across their nose essentially in that Z pattern, So across

1150
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 4: the top of the eyes, down across their eyes and

1151
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 4: lower and then back across their nose to right below

1152
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 4: their nose. Now they're breathing it through their nose. They've

1153
01:07:57,640 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 4: got it in their eyes. They can't see, we can't breathe.

1154
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:06,840
Speaker 4: They're salivating and tearing dramatically, and that's going to incapacitate

1155
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 4: most folks. I'll tell you what. Let's go ahead and

1156
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 4: take a break here. We'll be back and i'll tell

1157
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 4: you what Mike's been on hold too. We will make

1158
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 4: some time and get to Mike when we come back.

1159
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:17,559
Speaker 4: Let's take our last break here on The Gun Guy

1160
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 4: Show on ninety three WIBC.

1161
01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 3: Second to none on this second amendment.

1162
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 1: This is the Gun Guy with Guy Ralford on ninety

1163
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 1: three WYBC.

1164
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 4: And welcome back. I'm Guy Ralford on The Gun Guy

1165
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 4: Show on ninety three WIBC. A little bit of a

1166
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,839
Speaker 4: short segment here, but i'll tell you what we've had.

1167
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 4: Also Mike on the phone for quite some time. Mike,

1168
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 4: thank you as well for your patience. And you got

1169
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 4: a question for.

1170
01:08:50,280 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 7: Us, Hi do Thanks thanks for taking my call. Sure,

1171
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 7: this is probably an unusual question. I've been thinking wanting

1172
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 7: to buy a pistol or something for home defense for many,

1173
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 7: many years, but I just can't seem to bring myself

1174
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:08,440
Speaker 7: out to buy a nine milimeter.

1175
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 8: I think you know.

1176
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 7: My thought is I'd like to stop an intruder, make

1177
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 7: an intruder go away, But you know, the thought of

1178
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 7: killing an intruder, I don't know that bothers me. So

1179
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 7: I guess my question is, can a twenty two or

1180
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 7: something a little less than a nine.

1181
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 8: Milimeter be used for home defense? Would you recommend it?

1182
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 8: And you know what kind of gun and what kind

1183
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 8: of ammunition would make that effective?

1184
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, Mike, It's really not an unusual question at all.

1185
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 4: I get something similar all the time, and even more

1186
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 4: so when I was teaching my actual shooting classes a

1187
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:54,799
Speaker 4: lot more often. Can I twenty two be an effective

1188
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 4: home defense firearm? Well, listen, I mean the first rule

1189
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,600
Speaker 4: of of home defense with a firearm is to have

1190
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 4: a firearm. And there are people who have trouble firing

1191
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 4: or otherwise operating larger caliber firearms because of weight or

1192
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 4: recoil or whatever other whatever other issues, who are certainly

1193
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:21,639
Speaker 4: more comfortable shooting at twenty two. And at the same time,

1194
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:25,679
Speaker 4: would I recommend it. No, I wouldn't recommend it, only

1195
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 4: because what you want is something that's effective to stop

1196
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 4: the threat. And listen, twenty two's. I've seen many different

1197
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:39,599
Speaker 4: articles saying that twenty twos are actually responsible for killing

1198
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 4: more people than any other single caliber in the US.

1199
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's true or not. You know,

1200
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 4: there's a line from My Blue Heaven with Steve Martin

1201
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 4: where he talks about, oh yeah, you know, the mob

1202
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 4: uses them for assassinations. And I won't quote it. Maybe

1203
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:57,120
Speaker 4: people may find it a little off color, but essentially

1204
01:10:57,120 --> 01:10:59,599
Speaker 4: there's not much dry cleaning involved, was the quote from

1205
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 4: Steve mart In. A very good movie, by the way.

1206
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 4: But you want to stop the threat, and there are

1207
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 4: too many reported examples of people being shot with twenty

1208
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 4: two's a lot multiple times and still continuing to do

1209
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,639
Speaker 4: bad things for some period of time. And I understand

1210
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 4: you're reluctance to taking human life. Listen, I consider myself

1211
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:23,360
Speaker 4: a Christian. I don't want to take anybody's life. I

1212
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:25,200
Speaker 4: would pray I never have to do that. But if

1213
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 4: somebody breaks in my home, it is time to stop

1214
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 4: the threat. And I would not want I have to

1215
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 4: rely on a twenty two to stop a threat, and

1216
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:35,679
Speaker 4: that's why I would not recommend it. But that bears

1217
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,839
Speaker 4: more discussion than time we have. But that's my answer

1218
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,599
Speaker 4: to a very understandable question. That's it for this week's

1219
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 4: Gun Show, GUD and Guy Show. Hope you enjoyed it.

1220
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 4: We hope you come back. This is Guy Ralford on

1221
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 4: ninety three WIBC.