1 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: He is a lifelong who's your statesman and passionate steward 2 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: of Indiana's history. Born and raised in Indianapolis, and he 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: devoted more than three decades to public service as a 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: member of the Indiana State Senate until he stepped away 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: in November of twenty twenty. Joining us now in the 6 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: WIBC studio, we have Jim Merritt. Hey, it's nice to 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: see you again. 8 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 2: Very much appreciate being on the air with you today. 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk with you about this book that 10 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: you put out. It's called Lessons Learned? Are we ready 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: for the next pandemic? History says no, Okay, So what 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: inspired you to write the book? 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 3: Well, as you know, I was in the Indiana cent 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 3: for thirty years and my last year was twenty twenty. 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 3: And I remember on March third going to the microphone 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 3: in the Senate and talking about this flu or this 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 3: infection or something that's come to the fore and then 18 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 3: we signed. He died on March eleventh, and yeah, and 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 3: we were we didn't know what was coming and because 20 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 3: we being the federal government and state government, really were 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 3: flying blind because we never see him like that, like this, 22 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 3: that the governor was trying to get in front of it. 23 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 3: The president of the administration, the Trump administration at the time, 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 3: was trying to get in front of it. And there 25 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: were just way too many voices, way too many experts 26 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 3: out there, and it was difficult for the American public 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 3: to follow it. And so the reason why I wrote 28 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 3: the book is I saw that chaos in twenty twenty 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: and by no fault of any they were all struggling. 30 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 3: And I started to think about and watching the governor 31 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 3: executive order after executive order, having a legend slative mind 32 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: that I felt like I needed to start recording this. 33 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 3: And in twenty twenty two, when I saw there was 34 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 3: no after action report, there was no commission, nothing to 35 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 3: uh say, what the lessons learned available on Amazon dot com? 36 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: Uh? 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: What the what the lessons learned? And how we can 38 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: avoid it? How can we how can we guard against 39 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 3: the future and make our make our populace and our 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 3: Americans and the world safe coming And I don't I 41 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 3: still don't see it. 42 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: So you're saying that you've been writing this book for 43 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: four years. 44 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 2: Four years. 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 3: Four years, Yes, it took four years, and and uh uh. 46 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 3: The book starts out with studying and talking about the 47 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 3: the the pandemics from the beginning of time and and 48 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 3: what how we reacted, how the world reacted to it. 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 3: It goes through the Spanish flu, of which not many 50 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 3: people remember, and then America started with FBR started investing 51 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 3: in science, and so it goes through the twentieth century 52 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 3: to the twenty first century, and it seems as though 53 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 3: that every pandemic that we've had, no one really corrected 54 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 3: the record and protected us, and still it's not happening. 55 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: You had mentioned it was chaos when Holcombe was in office, 56 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: and that there were seventy different executive orders. Were you 57 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: surprised that there was never any discussion about removing his 58 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: emergency powers? 59 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 3: You know, if you recall, there was a lot of 60 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 3: discussion between the legislature and the governor's office on a 61 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 3: myriad of power issues, if you will, and the legislature 62 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 3: just does not have the leverage to do that. And 63 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 3: I came up with an idea that we know the 64 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 3: governor as an office is a week a governor position 65 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: where you can override the veto really really easily by 66 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: majority and not two thirds. And so what I would 67 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: have done is I would have traded that for the idea, 68 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 3: if you have an executive order, if you have an 69 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: executive order for thirty days, if it continues and he 70 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 3: wants to the governor, he or she in the future 71 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 3: wants to. 72 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: Re engage that. 73 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 3: Executive order, he has to call or she has to 74 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 3: call the legislature back into session. 75 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: Jim Merrit is joining us, and we're discussing his book 76 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: Lessons Learned. Are we ready for the next pandemic? History 77 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: says no. Before we get more into the book, I 78 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: wanted to ask you one question about that time seventy 79 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: different executive orders. Was there one that sticks out in 80 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: your mind as being the most ridiculous? 81 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: Well, I think the last one. 82 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 3: When twenty twenty one turned twenty twenty two. 83 00:04:58,640 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: There's a lot anngst in. 84 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 3: This world about about COVID, and there still were reported 85 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 3: cases and people were sick, and then all of a 86 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 3: sudden in February, woof, it was gone. The last It's 87 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 3: interesting to see the sixty ninth and seventieth where where 88 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: we had it was there, and then all of a 89 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 3: sudden on the seventieth they eliminated all the prerequisites and 90 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: all the protocols that had been established for the last 91 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: couple of years. 92 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: You were talking about one of the protocols that was 93 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: just ridiculous. If you're swimming, you have to swim six 94 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: feet apart. 95 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: Yes, there's the clause there. 96 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 3: And you know, and if you look if when you 97 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: read the book and you look around the world, they 98 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 3: had different countries. 99 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 2: South Korea did it. 100 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 3: Very well, by the way, but there were a lot 101 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 3: of countries that would allow women to come out out 102 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 3: in public one day and men the other people walking 103 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: on different sides of the. 104 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 2: Streets, you know. 105 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 3: And the crazy pictures that I saw of people having 106 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 3: athletic supporters on their face and and uh and water 107 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 3: cooler uh, you know, tanks on their face. 108 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 4: I read the famous pictures of people driving in their 109 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 4: cars with by themselves wearing. 110 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: Masks with bags on their faces, some plastic, I don't know, 111 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: baggage to you know, keep them. 112 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: Peace, you know. 113 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: Uh. 114 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: What I always say to people is that fear, fear 115 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: was present and and uh and the only way that 116 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 3: we're going to understand what happened is number one, have 117 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 3: a complete understanding of it. Bye by government and uh 118 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 3: mix some apologies because they scared the hell out of everybody, 119 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 3: and uh, and and two what we're going to do 120 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,119 Speaker 3: forward because this is going to happen again. And uh 121 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 3: and what you know the idea the autoimmune systems of 122 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,119 Speaker 3: of Americans and around the world, if you will, Uh, 123 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 3: what are we going to do about that? Because the 124 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: idea of COVID itself as well as the the onslaught 125 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: of how what that produced in your body? 126 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: You know it. 127 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 3: I'm very worried about the about society going forward because 128 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 3: if I told you, Jim, that you've got to go 129 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 3: home and you have to stay there, You're not going 130 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 3: to do it. 131 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: Not anymore, that's for sure. Yeah, fool me once. 132 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: Anybody listening to this, I think they would agree with me. 133 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 3: If government told you had to stay in place, nine 134 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: out of ten people would number one say why and 135 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: two they would say no, we're not ready. 136 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, Jim, I find it fascinating. I want to go 137 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 4: back to the dynamic between the legislature and Hulcombe and 138 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 4: the timing on all of it. You said that in 139 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 4: March of twenty twenty, March tenth was Sinnee Dice and 140 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 4: the legislators go home, and then it was really that 141 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 4: week that everything blew up and the whole world shut 142 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 4: down and former Governor Holcomb starts issuing all these executive orders. 143 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 4: You mentioned about how the legislature can't call themselves back 144 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 4: to an emergency session. That has to be done by 145 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 4: the governor. The governor didn't do that. So you've got 146 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 4: essentially nine months from March until January of next year. 147 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: Did the legislature try to do much once they went 148 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 4: back into session, I guess that would be in January 149 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 4: of twenty twenty one. 150 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 3: Well, they did to a certain extent, but just back 151 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,559 Speaker 3: up that when March eleventh came and then Trump shut 152 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 3: down the world right, and so the governor is following 153 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: the CDC, which should not be in charge next time, 154 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 3: by the way, And you just kind of look at this, 155 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 3: and I always thought that the legislature all one hundred 156 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 3: and fifty sets of boots on the ground, And if 157 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 3: I were in Governor Holcomb's spot, I would be out 158 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 3: talking by zoom or in person to every legislator, reading 159 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 3: by region, communicating because they are going to the gyms, 160 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 3: they are going to church, they're going to groceries, they're 161 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 3: going to the tire store, and and what the governor 162 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 3: was doing was and I can be critical of this 163 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 3: because I felt like this is what he had to do, 164 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: but I thought he should do more. If you recall 165 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 3: he had a one thirty Facebook live every day to 166 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 3: talk to citizens. Well, the state of Indiana is a 167 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: very rural place and about at that time, we were 168 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 3: about sixty five percent broadband covered. So his message wasn't 169 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 3: getting there. 170 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: And he had a built in, a built. 171 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: In communication channel with legislators and because we are there, 172 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 3: we are in our homes and and it wasn't utilized. 173 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: And so it's all about communication. It's all about fact, 174 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 3: and it's all about people speaking out of the same 175 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 3: out of the same wealth of knowledge that they have. 176 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: And we just got we were we as a as 177 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:06,359 Speaker 3: a world, we were blind. There were crisis communication experts 178 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 3: coming in and out the State House in the summer 179 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 3: of twenty twenty, going into Room two a six the 180 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 3: Governor's office. He was doing his very best to communicate, 181 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 3: and it was really difficult. I just believe that he 182 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 3: could have used the legislature as a friendly word, a tool. 183 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: As an arm of his message. 184 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, well I've got I want to go back 185 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 4: to something you said, because I found it really interesting. 186 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 4: You talked about how the CDC was in charge last 187 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 4: time and they shouldn't be in charge the next time. 188 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 4: Can you tell us who should without ruining the book, 189 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 4: who do you think should be in charge next time? 190 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 4: If it's not the Centers for Disease Control, Well, the 191 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 4: CDC looks back. It's a research It was put in 192 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 4: charge by default. And there is an arm. 193 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 3: Of the army that actually and there's a long acronym, 194 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: but they are in charge, if you can believe it, 195 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 3: and they've been there for a while. They are in 196 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 3: charge of infection and pandemic and and I believe if 197 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 3: if Trump had given this responsibility meaning uh, communicating and 198 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 3: and and the mask mandate if there was one, Uh, 199 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 3: they didn't even CDC didn't even test masks Japan test 200 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: mask and so they didn't even know what to suggest 201 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 3: to the American people. And you'll read that in the 202 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 3: book available on Amazon dot com, Casey Daniels. But but 203 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 3: bottom line is the the c d C was ill 204 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: equipped and and the and the support for them is 205 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 3: is not there is vacant and uh and just like 206 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 3: with Operation Warp Speed was done very very well, and 207 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: that was kind of an arm of the of the 208 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 3: army that did that, and it was, it was efficient, 209 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 3: and it was it did its shop. I think in 210 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 3: the future that arm of the army, army that actually 211 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 3: study infection and studies pandemics, should be the proper place. 212 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: To do so. 213 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: How much do you think political or media communication, or 214 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,599 Speaker 1: rather miscommunication shape the public response during the pandemic? 215 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think it was large. 216 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: However, I think they were They were given information by 217 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: all sorts of walks of life, and so they can only, 218 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 3: you know, everybody establish an opinion. But if we were 219 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 3: speaking with one voice in Washington, I think I think 220 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 3: a communication of safety and allaying fears and and and 221 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 3: spending the money that is necessary. It all comes down 222 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 3: to the credibility of the message and the credibility of government, 223 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 3: which is right now vacant. If we were if we 224 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: would have to shut down again. 225 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: Jimrit is joining us. We're talking about lessons learned. Are 226 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: we ready for the next pandemic? History says no. He's 227 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: going to stick around with us, and we're going to 228 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: ask the big question, what was this zingis big old, single, 229 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: biggest failure and what we need to know going forward 230 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: so that it doesn't happen again, you're listening to ninety 231 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: three WIBC. He is a fierce advocate for historic conservation 232 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: and education. Jim Merritt playing a pivotal role in some 233 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: of Indiana's most significant cultural projects, and he has a 234 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: new book out. It's called Lessons Learned. Are we ready 235 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: for the next pandemic? History? Says no? Jim Merritt joining 236 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: us in this studio before we get to the big 237 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: question about the biggest failure and what needs to change 238 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: moving forward, I'm wondering if you would share the story 239 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: you just told Jim and I off the air on 240 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: the air about how messaging can change and the effect 241 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: that it has on Hoosier's messages. 242 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: It's all about messaging and the confidence that comes from that, 243 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: or the lack of confidence and trust. 244 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:56,599 Speaker 2: Way back in July. 245 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 3: Of twenty twenty, you all recall that we had a 246 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 3: didn't have a mass mandate, that that the Governor Holcomb 247 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: had staved it off, had had said no, talked to 248 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 3: the hand everything and uh and and sometimes when you're 249 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 3: in leadership, you have to turn on a dime. 250 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 2: And uh. 251 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 3: I was caucus chairman of the Republican Caucus in the Indiana Senate, 252 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: we were having a caucus and uh. And and right 253 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: after that we we were we were going to be 254 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 3: talking with lieutenant governors Suzanne Crouch and uh, she hasn't 255 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 3: been going that long. Suzanne Crouch, my good friend Suzanne Crouch. 256 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 3: And it's well known that she was doing an interview 257 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: up and up in Fort Wayne, and it was it 258 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 3: was a tape recorded interview for a radio station. And 259 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 3: she in that interview, she was defending the governor on 260 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 3: on staving off the mass mandate. And then all of 261 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: a sudden, a tweet went out from the governor's office 262 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 3: and uh, they were calling for a mass mandate. 263 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: And uh. 264 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 3: And during that caucus that day in July mid I 265 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: think it was July twenty second, the governor had not 266 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 3: given any of us the inclinate or the message that 267 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 3: he was going to have a mass mandate. So he 268 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: took you know, forty members of the of the Senate 269 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: by surprise number one, but two he took his lieutenant 270 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: governor surprise. And so after she saw the tweet, they 271 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 3: re recorded the interview with Suzanne defending the mass mandate. 272 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: Wow. 273 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 3: And so you know, not only that members of the 274 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: Indiana Senate were in caucus on July twenty second, were 275 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 3: taken by surprise, so was lieutenant governor and and you know, 276 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: something happened quickly in the governor's office and he felt 277 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 3: like he had to he had to turn But the 278 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 3: bottom line is is communication is everything, and if you're 279 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 3: going to engender trust in society, you've got to speak truths, 280 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 3: and you've got to speak you know, you have to 281 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 3: be clear and and understand that you may scare people. 282 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: But really shows a lack of conviction. Though she recorded 283 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: an interview saying, no, masks don't work, It's not going 284 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: to happen here in Indiana. Tweet comes out mask mandate 285 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: re records the entire interview to defend that position. 286 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, she Susanne Crouch was a soldier and it was 287 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: the Holcome team. You don't see a whole lot of 288 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: that in the state House right now. And so she 289 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 3: she got her she got her orders, and lieutenant governors 290 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 3: are supposed to follow the team. 291 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: How much of that was because of federal funding? I 292 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: think I how much the change and mask mandates and 293 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: everything that went on in the state, Well, we were. 294 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 3: So discombobulated with masks. You know, I saw good friends 295 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 3: who had scarves on. I saw good friends who refused 296 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 3: to wear masks. And the whole mask mandate ended up 297 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 3: being just an incredible disaster because no one knew Japan, 298 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 3: like I said, had tested it, and they knew what 299 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 3: mask work and did not. 300 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: The CDC made an. 301 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: Incredible mistake on masks and it really set us back incredibly. Well. 302 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 4: I remember, specifically in the first month, so we're talking 303 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 4: about like March and April of twenty twenty, I remember 304 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 4: doctor Frauci's standing up there saying, look, masks do not work. 305 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 2: They will not protect you. 306 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 4: Because the concern at the time was having enough ppe 307 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 4: for our healthcare professionals, and they were worried that we 308 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 4: were going to run out of masks. So we don't 309 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 4: want the public to use masks and waste them when 310 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 4: the doctors could be using them. And then obviously as 311 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 4: time went on, all of a sudden that changed dramatically 312 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 4: and it was you know, you better wear a mask, 313 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 4: or you know you get a fine or thrown in 314 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 4: jail or worse. 315 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 3: Well, it goes back to the lesson learned is if 316 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 3: you're going to have a mask, it's got to be 317 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 3: it's got to be sturdy, and it's got to be effective. 318 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: And it goes back to the stockpile. We need to. 319 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 3: Make sure we're ready for any emergency in regards to 320 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 3: a pandemic. 321 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: And uh and and you. 322 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 3: Know you can't be ultra safe because you don't know 323 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 3: what that pandemic is going to be about. But you 324 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: look at history and and and find out exactly what 325 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 3: happened and uh and be ready. 326 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: Okay, Jim Merritt is joining us Lessons Learned? Are we 327 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: ready for the next pandemic? History? Says no. It's a 328 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: new book that he has out. You can find it 329 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: on Amazon. In your view, what was the singlest big 330 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: old biggest failure in the pandemic preparedness? 331 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: I think the single biggest. 332 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: I mean there were many. There's so many you could 333 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: choose to shoot. 334 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there were. 335 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 3: There were incredible failures and and I think from the 336 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 3: very beginning was was really the single biggest because we 337 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 3: didn't take it seriously and and our government leaders didn't 338 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 3: take it seriously. And I'm talking about early January twenty 339 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 3: twenty and and uh and and the clearing call did 340 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: not take effect. And I think you would share it 341 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 3: with me also that in January and February, we just thought, 342 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 3: you know, it just wasn't going to happen, and some 343 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 3: people get sick and whatnot. I think it just wasn't 344 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: a serious communication channel with facts, and I think that 345 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 3: led to so much lack of credibility by the government. 346 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people turned off a government 347 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 3: from the very beginning because they just didn't know how 348 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 3: to communicate the seriousness of the situation. 349 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: In your book, you take a look historically at past 350 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: pandemics and then you review what happened with COVID nineteen. 351 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: What is the big takeaway moving forward? What needs to change? 352 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: What are like the top things that should be done. 353 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 3: Well, if you look at the Spanish flu. In the 354 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: Spanish flu, there was a Philadelphia parade and they're raising 355 00:19:55,160 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 3: money for war bonds. And most people know, uh now 356 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 3: that more people died in World War One from the 357 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 3: Spanish Flu than they died in battle and uh, and 358 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 3: so uh the idea of of the Spanish flu and 359 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 3: and people and lack of knowledge. 360 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: Uh. 361 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 3: But but with this Philadelphia parade, Uh, people were falling 362 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: down dead and and uh the people in Saint Louis 363 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 3: heard about this. And so they they they shut down, 364 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: they didn't have any they they instructed not people not 365 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 3: to gather, and and they did not suffer the same 366 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 3: fate as Philadelphia. 367 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 2: And and you know, wood Wilson. 368 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 3: Was a a a stone that dragged everything down with 369 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 3: with the Spanish flu. And he he actually died from it. 370 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 3: And and uh when when the Spanish flu actually was 371 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 3: active in Washington, d C. Right under his knows and 372 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 3: he checked out. He was more worried about World War 373 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: what we call World War one now, and he left 374 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 3: it to people in the medicine and the science industry 375 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 3: to handle it. And so he worried about global but 376 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 3: forgot about people Americans suffering. 377 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: Jamared, it's nice to see you again. 378 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 2: Thank you. 379 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: The book has called lessons learned. Are we ready for 380 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,239 Speaker 1: the next pandemic? History says no. You can find out 381 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: wherever you buy your favorite books, including Amazon. 382 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 2: Thank you. 383 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: You're listening to ninety three WYBC.