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Speaker 1: There's no question that the shutdown affected everything everywhere. There's

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Speaker 1: no segment of society that didn't have some level of

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Speaker 1: effect of these shutdowns, which are now over. So we

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Speaker 1: got that going for us. Tony Katz Tony Kats Today,

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Speaker 1: great to be with. You find everything at tonycats dot com.

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Speaker 1: I admit what I said is still true. You didn't

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Speaker 1: feel the effects of the shutdown in your everyday life.

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Speaker 1: That isn't to say that there weren't things that were affected.

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Speaker 1: We saw how air traffic controllers were affected. We saw

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Speaker 1: how the military was affected. We saw how people getting

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Speaker 1: snap benefits were affected. And I still agree we need

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Speaker 1: to do a tremendous amount to reduce the number of

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Speaker 1: people getting these benefits because there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who do not deserve them.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't be helping single able bodied men.

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Speaker 1: They have to go get jobs, they have to go produce,

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Speaker 1: they have to go create. We are not going to

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Speaker 1: allow this taker society to take hold.

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Speaker 2: It's nonsense, it's madnesses.

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Speaker 1: But there were other things that took place, like if

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Speaker 1: you were taking some kind of family vacation, you didn't

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Speaker 1: get to go to a national park. If you were

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Speaker 1: trying to see DC and monuments. Sorry, that wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to happen. And so while you can argue, man, that's

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Speaker 1: really first world problem.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that the exact kind of problems we want to have?

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Speaker 1: I mean, after all, what's the value being a first

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Speaker 1: world nation if you can't have first world problems? I

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Speaker 1: say that not to be flipped, but rather to engage

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Speaker 1: a little with a little more focus. Well, these things

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Speaker 1: did affect parts of the country, and while it did,

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Speaker 1: there's also things going on within the country that need

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Speaker 1: to get our attention. And there's been a lot of

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Speaker 1: talk about data centers and the idea of whether or

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Speaker 1: not you want your city, your state, your municipality to

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Speaker 1: have these data centers and they take up all this

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Speaker 1: energy and how does one deal with it?

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Speaker 2: What is the future?

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Speaker 1: I had the chance to sit and talk with Doug Bergham,

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Speaker 1: the Secretary of the Interior, the former governor of North Dakota,

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Speaker 1: who has a very very.

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Speaker 2: Long history in tech.

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Speaker 1: I do have questions on the tech side and how

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Speaker 1: Interior plays a part in this.

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Speaker 2: But from your department, people wouldn't think.

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Speaker 1: The Secretary of the Interior dealing with land management across

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Speaker 1: the United states impacted by the shutdown.

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Speaker 2: How did the shutdown affect your world?

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Speaker 3: Well, Tony, great to be with you, and thanks for

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Speaker 3: drawing light on this. But this hurts every American and

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Speaker 3: across the interior. It's an incredible department. We've got all

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Speaker 3: the national parks, all the tribal relationships across the country,

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Speaker 3: four hundred and fifty four tribal nations. We deal with

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Speaker 3: over four hundred National park sites and historic sites, US

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Speaker 3: fish and wildlife, all of these things. When you shut

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Speaker 3: down the National park system, we fought to keep them open.

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Speaker 3: But when we had them open, there was nobody there

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Speaker 3: in the boot collecting revenue. We were losing revenue every day,

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Speaker 3: and you knew who was really hurting the entrance communities

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Speaker 3: to the national parks, those small businesses, particularly during the

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Speaker 3: you know, like fall leaf season, Great Smoky Mountains, some

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Speaker 3: of our most visited I think all of these losing

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Speaker 3: tens of millions of dollars of revenue a day for

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Speaker 3: small businesses for what I mean, for what? Because you

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Speaker 3: know there was nothing accomplished by the Democrats, only hurting Americans.

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Speaker 1: You and in your tenure as governor of North Dakota,

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Speaker 1: it's a very interesting story because I don't want to

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Speaker 1: call you the accidental.

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Speaker 2: Governor, but I think when you ran as being.

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Speaker 1: An executive with great Plain Software selling that to Microsoft

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Speaker 1: for one point one billion dollars, people didn't necessarily take

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Speaker 1: that too seriously. I think is an acceptable way to

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Speaker 1: say it. And then you want a second term by

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Speaker 1: an overwhelming margin. You've engaged the idea of beating the

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Speaker 1: odds and then working with people towards towards common goals.

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Speaker 1: Was there no conversation about how a common goal could

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Speaker 1: have been achieved except to wait out forty two days

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Speaker 1: of democrat and sanity.

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Speaker 3: Well, I, first of all had accidental governor is totally appropriate.

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Speaker 3: And when I was when I decided what I decided

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Speaker 3: to run and I told the Captain I was thinking

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Speaker 3: about running. She said, oh, my goodness, really, why we

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Speaker 3: have a great life and and why would you want

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Speaker 3: to get into this, you know, horrible world of you know, politics.

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Speaker 3: And I said, well, don't worry. I don't have a chance.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to worry about being first lady. So

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Speaker 3: that was my sales pitch. But she was an amazing

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Speaker 3: first lady as well. But we but yeah, there wasn't really,

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Speaker 3: I don't think in DC and Congress, you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: busy trying to keep the world's largest balance sheet going.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in tears, got five hundred million acres of

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Speaker 3: service land to manage, and Timberly's ENGRAZINGLYSS oil and gaslet

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Speaker 3: we're revenue generating agency and trying to keep that revenue up.

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Speaker 3: Under the Biden administration, the revenue went down every year.

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Speaker 2: And these assets, the the.

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Speaker 3: Underground assets, seven hundred million acres of where we've got minerals,

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Speaker 3: critical minerals, oil and gas, the timber and grazing on

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Speaker 3: the surface, and then offshore you know, rich with all

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Speaker 3: kinds of resources two point five billion acres stretching everywhere

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Speaker 3: from Pacific Islands to the Caribbean, because all of those

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Speaker 3: territories are part of the Department of the misnamed Department

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Speaker 3: of Interior. And of course everything up in Alaska which

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Speaker 3: was shut down into the Biden administration, that's got a resource.

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Speaker 3: But when we tell Americans here about, oh, we've got

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Speaker 3: this debt, we've got three six billion dollars of debt,

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Speaker 3: I'm a maginable number. Well, I want to let Americans

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Speaker 3: know it. You also if you own part of that debt.

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Speaker 3: You own part of these assets. These are public lands,

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Speaker 3: and in your assets, ownership in these fatheric lands could

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Speaker 3: be five times ten times greater than the debt because

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Speaker 3: we have hundreds of brillions of dollars of assets held

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Speaker 3: in these lands, minerals, timber, all these things that we

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Speaker 3: can generate revenue from. But we've got to get rever

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Speaker 3: When Theodore Roosevelt put these lands away, they weren't all

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Speaker 3: wilderness areas. They weren't all national and sacred areas. These

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Speaker 3: were for the benefit and the use of the American people.

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Speaker 3: That's what we're about in the shutdown. Hurt our ability,

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Speaker 3: hurt our revenue, and hurt the communities and the workers

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Speaker 3: and timber raising ranchers, oil and gas affects all of them.

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Speaker 1: Talking to the Secretary of the Interior, Doug Bergham, and

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Speaker 1: I do understand what you're saying there.

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Speaker 2: I agree, But.

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Speaker 1: Just before moving on, you talked about the amount of

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Speaker 1: land that is covered by the Secretary of the Interior,

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Speaker 1: by your department, by the Bureau of Land Management, especially

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Speaker 1: on the west of the United States.

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Speaker 2: Is it too much? Shall we be giving this land

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Speaker 2: back to the states?

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Speaker 3: There are specific instances where the answer that question is yes.

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Speaker 3: There's lands that were meant to go to Alaska when

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Speaker 3: it became a state in the late nineteen fifties that

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Speaker 3: still haven't been transferred. We're trying to get those back

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Speaker 3: out of the states. The states and many times can

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Speaker 3: manage these better they're closer to them. I know this

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Speaker 3: as a former governor. But there are other lands that

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Speaker 3: We've got a small amount of lands that are in

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Speaker 3: southern Nevada. There is a Southern Nevada Lands Act. Harry Reid, Democrat,

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Speaker 3: leader of the Senate twenty five years ago, came up

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Speaker 3: with a bill because you've got cities like Las Vegas

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Speaker 3: that are hemmed in by Bureau of Land Management. Land

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Speaker 3: that's not good for recreation, not good for grazing, but wow,

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Speaker 3: it's a valuable land. And when we sell one hundred

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Speaker 3: acres of land near Las Vegas, we the federal government,

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Speaker 3: you the people, and we get a big check. Then

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Speaker 3: we can turn that check and turn that into developing

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Speaker 3: real recreation land, real wilderness, real visitor centers. And that's

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Speaker 3: what we're doing right now. So there are some cases

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Speaker 3: where in the precise thing, and if you look out

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Speaker 3: west around fast growing cities Boise, Salt Lake, Las Vegas, Reno,

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Speaker 3: those are places. I mean, Nevada is eighty percent federal owned.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's just crazy. Indiana is a lucky state.

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Speaker 3: It's got very little federal ownership and doesn't have to

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Speaker 3: deal with this with having a bunch of federal bureaucracy

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Speaker 3: screwing up the you know, basically being the landlord for Indiana,

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Speaker 3: the governor of Indiana can manage the land with the

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Speaker 3: people of Indiana who care for it, live there, live

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Speaker 3: there for generations. I mean, nobody's going to care for

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Speaker 3: Indiana more than the people that are living there.

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Speaker 2: More than Hoosiers, that's true.

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Speaker 1: Talking to the Secretary of the Interior, Doug Bergham, you

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Speaker 1: bring up my state, Indiana, and being somebody who has

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Speaker 1: this long career in tech and tech growth, you also

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Speaker 1: play in the world of energy. In my state, data

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Speaker 1: centers have become a front and center subject.

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Speaker 2: Do we want to be the state of data centers?

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Speaker 1: They take up the land, they're not attractive, there's not

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Speaker 1: really a workforce. Is it actually throwing off a tax benefit?

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Speaker 1: And what of the energy usage, the power and the

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Speaker 1: water that's utilized in your view, as you are dealing

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Speaker 1: with us and seeing this and seeing of course questions about, hey,

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Speaker 1: can we use this land, can.

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Speaker 2: We use that land?

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Speaker 1: Should states be looking at being data center states or

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Speaker 1: is this a no win proposition?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think they should absolutely look at it, and

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Speaker 3: every state's got to make up their own decisions and

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Speaker 3: whether they get benefit or not spends a little bit

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Speaker 3: on their revenue generation. If they, you know, are generating

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Speaker 3: revenue through property taxes, these can be a huge lift

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Speaker 3: for some rural areas. But as a country, we're we're

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Speaker 3: in the AI arms race with China, and China didn't

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Speaker 3: take the last forty three days off. You know, they're

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Speaker 3: charging ahead. They're adding power at unbelievable levels. I Mean,

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Speaker 3: there's been a saying in every language and every culture

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Speaker 3: for a thousand years that knowledge is power, But now

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Speaker 3: it's actually flipped. It's power is knowledge because for the

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Speaker 3: first time in human history, we can take electricity, a

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Speaker 3: kill a lot of electricity, and we can convert it

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Speaker 3: directly into intelligence. So, Tony, I've even quit calling these

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Speaker 3: data centers. If you're manufacturing intelligence, these are manufacturing plants,

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Speaker 3: I mean a data center. Yeah, you've got to you know,

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Speaker 3: blue cross healthcare claim, and you've got a payer and

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Speaker 3: you've got a provider, and you have a patient. That's

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Speaker 3: a closed loops them that that's the data center that's

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Speaker 3: running you know some you know shopping orders. That's the

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Speaker 3: closed loop between the customer and the company. But these

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Speaker 3: these are GPT's general purpose technologies. If you're manufacturing intelligence,

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Speaker 3: it can be used by universities in Indiana, can be

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Speaker 3: used by by people that are trying to cure cancer

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Speaker 3: research institutes, it can be used by K twelve students.

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Speaker 3: It can be used by by anybody. And and you're

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Speaker 3: going to see capital flow to the states that have

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Speaker 3: low electricity prices, and you're going to see capital flow

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Speaker 3: away from states that have high electricity prices because electricity

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Speaker 3: is the primary ingredient into to UH to you know,

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Speaker 3: creating more intelligence. And and and we've got we've got

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Speaker 3: different policies. There are country places like New York and

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Speaker 3: California that have traditionally attracted capital are going to be

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Speaker 3: on the last of the list. I mean, there's there's

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Speaker 3: a close to four hundred billion dollars chasing chasing you know,

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Speaker 3: artificial intelligence factory locations right now.

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Speaker 1: The right. I don't say capital, I say yes talking

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Speaker 1: to the Secretary of the Interior, Doug Berghen. But this,

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Speaker 1: this energy conversation is exactly the one where states like

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Speaker 1: mine and other states end up seeing an issue and

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Speaker 1: the people say, hold up a second, we're the ones

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Speaker 1: who are going to pay the energy bill, or we're

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Speaker 1: going to pay the more expensive energy bill because the

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Speaker 1: data center is using.

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Speaker 2: All the energy.

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Speaker 1: So it's not that I don't disagree about where things

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Speaker 1: are going. How do you engage a conversation of convincing

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Speaker 1: local municipalities, no matter the state, when the realization is

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Speaker 1: these data centers suck up energy like it's their job.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the key here is there is no

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Speaker 3: energy transition. That was that was basically a misconception, a

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Speaker 3: framing that somehow that if you had a highly subsidized, intermittent,

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Speaker 3: weather dependent, you know, power, that you could transition away

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Speaker 3: from from you know, base loads seven by twenty four power.

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Speaker 3: But there is the energy addition. We need more electricity

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Speaker 3: in this country. We have not produced. We've never if

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Speaker 3: someone's running utility and they've been a CEO and they

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Speaker 3: grew up in that industry in their lifetime, they've never

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Speaker 3: seen a demand curve like we have not where we

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Speaker 3: just need more power. And what the this Trump administration

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Speaker 3: is doing is allowing these the hyperscalers, the people that

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Speaker 3: are building the AI factories to build them, you know,

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Speaker 3: off the meter behind the grid. But you've got to

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Speaker 3: bring your own power. You've got to build your own power.

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Speaker 3: You have to be your own you have to be

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Speaker 3: your own power generator. So you're not affecting the local pricing,

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Speaker 3: so you're not affecting the local grid. And the way

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Speaker 3: to you know, do that again, part of the cost

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Speaker 3: of electricity is cost of transmission. A lot of this

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Speaker 3: intermittent stuff that was built, you know, the weather dependent

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Speaker 3: wind and solar build it, you know, build a wind

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Speaker 3: farm in North Dakota. But then we need transmission from

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Speaker 3: North Dakota to California or North Kota to New York

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Speaker 3: or someplace, and that costs, you know, trillions of dollars

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Speaker 3: of infrastructure costs to move these electrons around where the

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Speaker 3: data center. Guys, the smart ones are going to a

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Speaker 3: place where we've got stranded power like the Permian, the

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Speaker 3: bak and the North Dakota. The marcellis in Pennsylvania. Go

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Speaker 3: to where the stranded natural gas is, build a power plan,

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Speaker 3: put a data center right next to it, and guess

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Speaker 3: what Your finished product goes out on a fiber optic cable.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, you don't need.

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Speaker 3: To be fighting all the landowner issues related to transmission

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Speaker 3: or pipelines.

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Speaker 1: By the way, the Buck and Marcelos, these are shale

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Speaker 1: fields that the secretary is talking about. Well, I've got

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Speaker 1: thirty seconds, Sar, and I appreciate you taking the time

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Speaker 1: before I let you go.

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Speaker 2: I've already run late, and it's been well worth it.

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Speaker 1: Has there ever been a conversation about the Interior Department

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Speaker 1: allowing certain land to be utilized for the building of

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Speaker 1: data centers, So it's not state a conversation, it's actually

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Speaker 1: a federal conversation. And then the states being able to

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Speaker 1: benefit from the federal government engaging and what can be

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Speaker 1: seen as a national security conquest.

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Speaker 2: Answer is yes.

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Speaker 3: And on the topic of affordability in North Kota, when

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Speaker 3: I was still governor, we you know I approved the

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Speaker 3: data center, but they actually did in a way where

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Speaker 3: the rates went down for the local farmers. You produce

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Speaker 3: extra energy, put it onto the grid, benefit everybody locally

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Speaker 3: and your data center. There's win win opportunities here. The

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Speaker 3: capital is there. People just have to.

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Speaker 2: Be absolutely creative.

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Speaker 3: And then again, my great partner Chris Wright leading the

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Speaker 3: Department of Energy. Department of Energy has got land. They're

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Speaker 3: fast tracking and co loating small, co locating small modular

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Speaker 3: nuclear in future of you know, future of electricity down

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Speaker 3: the road. We need more of that, but co locating

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Speaker 3: on their land to speed up the permitting process so

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Speaker 3: they can get it done in years not decades.

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Speaker 1: Secretary Doug Bergham, the Secretary of the Interior. Secretary Bergham

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Speaker 1: on the Twitter X b U R g U M.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you taking the time come visit us. Happy

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Speaker 1: to host you have an event, and if you're a

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Speaker 1: cigar smoker, well then my gosh, I'd be happy as

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Speaker 1: a clam. Keep it here. I'm Tony Katz. This is

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Speaker 1: Tony Katz today,