1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Allegations of public corruption with one of Mike Bron's political allies. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: It's Kennel and Casey Show. I'm Rob Casey's here. This 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: is an incredible story and we have an incredible guest 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: to help tell it. And the story involves Tom Kleinhelter. 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: He is the sheriff of du Bois County, a I 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: think what most people would say, a close political ally 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: of Governor Mike Braun and an investigation into public corruption 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: the state Police launched last year. That leadership at the 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: time felt was pretty strong. And then once Governor Braun 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: became the governor and a new state Police superintendent was named, 11 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 1: the case mysteriously went away. Who's fired up about it? 12 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: He's the former superintendent of Indiana State Police. You know him. 13 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: His name is Doug Carter. Doug joins us now Doug Carter. 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, Rob's good to be with you. 15 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 1: And this is the case that I've been aware of 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 1: for quite a while now, and it had been on 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: my radar and when I reached out to you and 18 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: we connected, you talked about the passion you had for 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: this and how important it was for the public to 20 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: know about it. And we'll get into the details of 21 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: it here in just a moment. But first of all, 22 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: it just kind of let her by know. Obviously, you're 23 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: not the superintendent of the Indiana State Police now, but 24 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: you were when this investigation was launched, and you felt 25 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: passionate enough about it. Now even though you got nothing 26 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: other than caring about the public involved in this, why 27 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: are you speaking out today. 28 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: Well, Robin's really pretty simple. I've always tried to live 29 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 2: my life above reproach and above even a perception of impropriety, 30 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: and a lot of things happened on my watch. I 31 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: was the superintendent for twelve years, the longest in the 32 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: history of the agency. I love the agency to this day, 33 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: and I love its people even more. And we always 34 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: tried to stand for what was right and do things 35 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: the correct way, no matter the outcome. So we didn't 36 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: have an anticipated outcome of almost anything. And we've talked 37 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: much about Delphi and about Flora, and about a lot 38 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: of high profile cases, and there was a lot of 39 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: criticism at the time about a lot of things, and 40 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: that was okay. I wasn't afraid of that. But even 41 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: though I'm retired now, and by the way I retired, 42 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: I wanted to it was a forty year career, long time. 43 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: You're one of the few goes by choice, not by force. 44 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, And as I watched a couple of 45 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: events that occurred, in cases that occurred on my watch, 46 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 2: I'm mortified at how they've been handled, and I'm not 47 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: going to let the right thing to do is what 48 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: I'm doing. The wrong thing would be to do nothing. 49 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's why I wanted to have Doug in today, Casey, 50 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: because obviously this involves the public interest, the public trust, 51 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: allegations of violation of that, but also because we always 52 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: talk about people step it up and the need for 53 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: people to speak out. And I think in the case 54 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: of you, Doug, you gain nothing by doing this. It'll 55 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: cause you more headaches. First of all, you're associating with us. 56 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,399 Speaker 1: That'll probably be a thing against your reputation. But you're 57 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: doing it because you're saying this is the right thing 58 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: to do, and you want to inspire others to do that. 59 00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 2: I do. I do. 60 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 3: Where we get into it, Rob, can we ask Doug Carter, 61 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 3: former superintendent of the ISP, what is the job of 62 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 3: the superintendent? 63 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, that would take an hour plus to talk at. 64 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 2: Essentially Essentially, that person runs a full service police agency 65 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: from north to southeast to west, seventeen eighteen hundred people, 66 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 2: bad things happening to good people every single day. The 67 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: legislative process, the political process, very complicated investigations, and then 68 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: the work behind the scenes to keep all that going, 69 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 2: keep it funded, and keep it trained, and make sure 70 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: those specialties are still there to support local agencies in 71 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: large part. But in rural Indiana we have an absolute presence. 72 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: So we have an urban model, a rural model, and 73 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: then a combination of the of those two. So it's 74 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: it's it's a it's a fast moving train every single day, 75 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: and it was. It was difficult, but also the highlight 76 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 2: of my life. 77 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So former State Police Superintendent Doug Carter 78 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: is our guest. Let's talk about the case. And this 79 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: is a case that has been somewhat in the public aisle, 80 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: although it seems there could be a lot more to 81 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: the story than what has been revealed. And that's what 82 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: you're here to talk about today. And this involves the 83 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: Dubois County Sheriff. His name is Tom klein Helter, and 84 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: an investigation that took place. By the way, he's somebody 85 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: that is very close to Governor Braun. If you google 86 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: those two names together, Tom klein Helter and Mike Braun, 87 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: you'll see you a big endorsement for Governor Braun. I 88 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: believe he was in Governor Braun's campaign commercials. He's the 89 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: sheriff of his home county. And this involves an investigation 90 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: that you helped launch back last year while you were 91 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: still superintendent, involving potential public corruption. 92 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: Tell us about it, Yeah, well, essentially, Rob to go 93 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: back even before that, just very briefly, this is on 94 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: the heels of the Jamie Nol investigation in Clark County, 95 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: which was the largest case of public corruption in our history. 96 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: Now he is the former Clark County sheriff. He has 97 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: a big power broker. He is currently in prison for 98 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: various crimes against humanity. And you, the state Police, helped 99 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: see that investigation through. 100 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: Yes, the same detective that ran that case was assigned 101 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 2: to this one. Hugely complicated, hugely layered, a lot of 102 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: money going back and forth in different places. So I 103 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 2: watched that case very carefully, and I watched it carefully 104 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 2: as a protective layer around those that were doing the 105 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: work because some of This work was not very popular, 106 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: but it was right. 107 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: How hard is a public corruption case, whether it was 108 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: what you guys did with Noel or whether this du 109 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: Bois County Sheriff Tom and Klein Helter. We're about to 110 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: talk about how hard is it to do a public 111 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: corruption case? For you guys the state police. 112 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: It's not hard if you do it the right way, 113 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 2: and you do it with one outcome, and that's the truth. 114 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: That you leave subjectivity out of it, you leave your 115 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 2: personal opinions out of it. And what you do is 116 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 2: through through a series of steps with a little bit 117 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: of technology, you find out the facts. We might exonerate 118 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: the individual, and we've done that before. 119 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: Your goal is to get the truth. You don't go 120 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: into like this investigation that you helped launch with the 121 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: client Helter or Noel or anyone wanting them to be guilty. 122 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you want to know the truth. Oh for sure, 123 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 2: for sure, you can't make it up. I've said said 124 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 2: many times, I don't say what happened Orf they did 125 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: what anymore, but we will always we always would have 126 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: done the right thing for the right reasons. And that's 127 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: maybe an altruistic approach, but it just the way we 128 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: have to do it without even the perception of impropriety. 129 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: But some of these cases are, up to your question, 130 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: lead to division, with political divide, with individuals not agreeing, 131 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: and that makes them a bit difficult. But we have 132 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 2: to stay above all that, and that's what the ice 133 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 2: piece should always stay above that. 134 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's let's talk about client Helter, because obviously 135 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: the over you know, the thing holding over all this 136 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: is he is very close to the governor. He had 137 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: a very close relationship with the governor. The public can 138 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: see it. You have to take our word for it. 139 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: But tell us about client Halter, what he's alleged to 140 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: have done, and how he got on your radar. 141 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, well he got on our radar because the State 142 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: Board of Accounts they do audits of units of government 143 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: all over Indiana. 144 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: And we talked about them the other day. Case they're 145 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: talking about them. Their job is to go in and 146 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: look at the finances of a local government entity. They 147 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: do them for school corporations, cities, towns, counties and make 148 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: sure to the best their ability, money is being spent properly. 149 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: Correct, that's right. And since they don't have law enforcement authority. 150 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: Now one of them is a retired trooper. One of 151 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: them is retired FBI agent. So these guys have extensive 152 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: knowledge and when they go in and do these audits, 153 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: it's not a source of intelligence. It's not a rumor, 154 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 2: it's not a conversation that occurred. They have articulable facts 155 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: that they believe leads to criminal behavior. 156 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: How are they received when they show up to do 157 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: an audit? 158 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: Generally pretty well. I was a sheriff, and I remember 159 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: when when they came in, and I was tried to 160 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: be as obviously as transparent as can be and that 161 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: there are no secrets here generally speaking. There they're very receptive. 162 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: Okay, so they got wind right or did they just 163 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: find this through their regular audit? 164 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: It was a regular audit, okay. Yes. 165 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: So Kleinhalter as the sheriff of du Bois County, he 166 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: controls what's called the commissary. Can you just very briefly 167 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: explain what that is. 168 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 2: It's explained in Title thirty six in Indiana Code in 169 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: ill law, and it gives nine reasons that the commissary 170 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: how the commissary funds can be used. What is commissary 171 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: funds are generated by the inmates purchasing tangible items in 172 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: the jail in the jail, in the jail, and it's 173 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: meant for operation of the of the agency essentially. 174 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: And the sheriff then, and this is true in what 175 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: every county they oversee that the money that comes in 176 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: from the commissary they do. 177 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 2: And there's also a requirement that they communicate twice a 178 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 2: year with data and documents to their county Council, the 179 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 2: fiscal body of the county, so that they can see 180 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: how those expenses are being made. 181 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So what did State Board of Accounts allegedly find 182 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: when it came to dealing with client Halter and and 183 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: the commissary specifically travel? There were some travel vouchers and 184 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: travel expenses that came up that drew significant attention by 185 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: the State Board Accounts. We knew nothing about this at 186 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: the time. State Police, the State Police, right, we get 187 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: wind of this when they reach out to us officially 188 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: and say we think there's a criminal predicate here, would 189 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: you look into it for us? Now, they have a 190 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: public document that's available to all of our citizens that 191 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: explains what they found during that audit. So that's all 192 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: public record. State former Police, State Superintendent Doug Carter is 193 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: our guest. We're talking about an investigation that he helped 194 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: oversee last year related to du Bois County Sheriff Tom Kleinhelter, 195 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: who is the sheriff du Bois County, appears to be 196 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: close associate of Governor Braun. The things that they the 197 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: state Police uncovered, the State Board of Accounts uncovered, and 198 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: then how this investigation kind of ultimately took a bizarre 199 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 1: turn at at the end. All right, so Clientholter was 200 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: allegedly doing what with the money with the commissary. 201 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: He was a bit free wheeling with it a bit. 202 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,239 Speaker 2: I mean, there was there were there were some questionable expenditures, 203 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: which is generally how this happens. And and by the way, 204 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: the vast majority of sheriff in Indiana are wonderful people. Yeah, 205 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: so I'm not categorizing everybody into this into this into 206 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: this same in the same category. But essentially was was 207 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: was purchasing travel, flights, hotels, uh for both he and 208 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: his wife, and and. 209 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: You just get it's a lot of money, right, I 210 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: Mean we're talking like trip to Arizona, Florida, Dubai, and 211 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: he was trying to crectly if wrong. He was trying 212 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: to say these are valid sheriff related type of that's 213 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: try spenses. Now, Dubai seems very far away to be sheriffing, 214 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: but agreed the real issue was that his wife was 215 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: involved in the travel correct. 216 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: Yes, and then how the money was moving out of 217 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,599 Speaker 2: commissary to personal accounts, personal accounts back to the commissary 218 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: personal credit cards, and that was all done through forensic 219 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: evaluation and through the process of the investigation, and it 220 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 2: was found that the money did not land where it 221 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: should have landed. 222 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: Now, according to fourteen news dot com who covered this, 223 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: they claimed nine thousand dollars of those funds that were 224 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: being investigated were travel expenses. As we said twenty twenty 225 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: one to twenty twenty three that it also showed that 226 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: the sheriff spent nearly eight thousand dollars on prepaid gift 227 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: cards and employee gift cards. These are all things that 228 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: the state Board of Accounts uncovered in their investigation. That's right, 229 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: And there was a way he was reporting it that 230 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: was also a red flag as well, because the county, 231 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: the county government is supposed to oversee this, and there 232 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: were ways he was allegedly reporting this that might have 233 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: been to evade detection and was a. 234 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 2: Bit obstinate throughout the course of the of the process 235 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: with the Council and the commission I personally, I've talked 236 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: to one of the commissioners down there by design for 237 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: no nefarious reason, of course, but you just let him 238 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 2: know what we would do and why we would do this, 239 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: and the common theme seemed to be that he was 240 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 2: being a bit optionate, not wanting to report. 241 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: Okay, let's take a break. Our guests. This hour special 242 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: guest former Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter, joining us, 243 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: talking about an investigation last year into a close political ally, 244 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: or what I think many people wouldink is a close 245 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: political ally of Governor Mike Brown, the sheriff of Dubois County, 246 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: Tom Kleinhelter, and allegations of misuse of money, an investigation 247 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: Sheriff Carter helped launch when he was a superintendent of 248 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: State Police, and an investigation that mysteriously went away. It's 249 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: Kenilla Casey Show, Naughty Three, WIBC, Miss Kenne mccasey Show. 250 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: Now if you're going to want WIBC, I'm Rob Casey's 251 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: their special hour of radio and special guest in studio. 252 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: He is the former superintendent of State Police here in Indiana, 253 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: Doug car and we are talking about this investigation that 254 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: he helped launch last year into allegations about misuse of 255 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: money by the du Boys County sheriff. His name is 256 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: Tom Kleinhelter, and he is I think what many people 257 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: would consider a close political ally of Governor Mike Brown. 258 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: State Police under Sheriff Carter felt like they had a 259 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: strong investigation, and once Governor Bron became the governor and 260 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: a new superintendent was in place, the investigation, the case 261 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 1: itself mysteriously went away. So if you are just joining us, 262 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: we'll pick up here with Sheriff Carter. This investigation that 263 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: you guys did as state police was triggered by an 264 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: investigation from the State Board of Accounts. The State Board 265 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: of Accounts then comes to you, the State Police, or 266 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: they come to you directly and say we've uncovered these things. 267 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: We think, because we don't have any arrest power things 268 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: of nature, you need to investigate this. 269 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: That's correct, then what so we did? We accepted it. 270 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: We assigned an organized crime corruption detective to this specific case, 271 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: and that was back in July twenty twenty four, just 272 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: last year. 273 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: Are there certain markers that you have to notice before 274 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 3: you'll say yes to doing it? 275 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: There are, there are a great question from the State 276 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: Board accounts. Is generally not, because we have that we 277 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 2: have such a relationship with them and with their past 278 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: of law enforcement experience, generally we take those every time. 279 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: But there are some if they're just speculative, if there's 280 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: a rumor, if we hear from just a single individual 281 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: that I think, hey, this is what's happening there, we 282 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: won't initially start that. We won't help local entities, agencies, 283 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: police agencies do these kinds of do this work with policy? 284 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: As an example, there's got to be a criminal predicate 285 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: before we do this, because we know it's very sensitive 286 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: and this is a big deal. 287 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: And obviously this guy deal, this guy was clearly tied 288 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: into the governor in terms of being friends and political allies. 289 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: And it's the home county of well. 290 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: Just the home county of course, right. 291 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: Sure, so at some point you guys launched the investigation. 292 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: A special prosecutor then becomes a part of this. How 293 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: does that work? 294 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: That's right? That the court will will the pressing and 295 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: trench council get gets involved in that, and there there 296 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: are certain attorneys that are willing to do this kind 297 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 2: of work. So through the court, through another group of prosecutors, 298 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: Holly Huntleston from Orange County was selected and she agreed 299 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: to take the case, which isn't by the way, it's 300 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: an adjoining county to do boys. 301 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so you uh, you assign a detective and 302 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: you weren't real happy with how you felt that investigation 303 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: was going. Is that correct? 304 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: Well, here's here's what happened, just very directly. Uh, when 305 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: that investigation was assigned, it's pretty clear generally and with 306 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: the report that I direct from the State Board accounts, 307 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: it's pretty clear what's happened here. 308 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: So you can you get to see it right opening 309 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: might be. 310 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: And especially on the heels of Clark County and Jamie Nole, 311 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: I wanted to make darn good and sure we were 312 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: doing everything absolutely correctly. Yeah, And so I would I 313 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: would periodically get updates about where it was, what was happening. 314 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: And it didn't happen very quickly. I think the initial 315 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: detective had it five or six weeks and hear he 316 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: decided to go to Holly Huddleston the prosecutor, and basically 317 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 2: say nothing here. But there was no one document created, 318 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: no case report, no probable cause AFFI David, there were 319 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 2: not interviews done, there was no forensic evaluation done, there 320 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: were no search warrants done. And come to find out, 321 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: I don't think his heart was in this. I'd like 322 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: to think that it wasn't capricious. And and and you. 323 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: Were and you were concerned enough about this. Former Indiana 324 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: State Superintendent Doug Carter is our guest if you're just 325 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: joining us, we're talking about this case involving the Dubois 326 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: County sheriff whose name is Tom Kleinhelter and allegations of 327 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: government corruption. Uh, and will take you through. I mean, 328 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: it's a very very odd story. And and Dougs and 329 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: Grace is enough to come in and phillis in on 330 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: this today and where this case is at now and 331 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: some of the crazy turns it's taken. So you were 332 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: not happy with the job this detective was doing. And 333 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: you said somebody else got to look at this because 334 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: I've seen this case. There's more than this here. 335 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 2: Well, and again I never thought there was anything that 336 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: faire us to it at all. At the time, I 337 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: just thought it's a long ways away. Jasper's a long 338 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: way some Innnianapolis. 339 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was. 340 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 2: He was complaining about some discomfort. 341 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: The detective that had the case. 342 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 2: I had the case initially, and and I can't ever 343 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: of the hundreds of these we did while I was 344 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: there for twelve years, none of them ended this way. 345 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: This process, the normal process that we that we took, 346 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: stopped on this day when when he went without any 347 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 2: documentation to sit down with a prosecutor and have that conversation. 348 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: I'd like to know who told him to do that. 349 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's not typical. 350 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: No, No, it's not typical at all. No, it's not 351 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: typical at all, especially with nothing in our evidence, in 352 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: our in our case reporting system, or in our evidence 353 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: system to come to that conclusion without any I've never 354 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 2: been a detective, but I have. I got to represent 355 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: some really good ones. Yeah, and without search warrants, without interviews. 356 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: Even though there were interviews done, they were at best cursory. 357 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: All right, So you say I've seen this, I think 358 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: there's more here. For whatever reason, this guy is not 359 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: doing his job. Let's send in someone with basically an 360 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: impeccable record to take a look at this. Who did 361 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: you send in? 362 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 2: His name is Jeff Herron. He's the very best of us. 363 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: He did the Jamie nol investigation. Did people may remember 364 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: his name because it was public that Deshaun Reid. 365 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: You think Jeff Herron was one of the ones that 366 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: kept the city of Indianapolis from completely imploding. 367 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you said, let's send the best of the 368 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: best down here. And what did he find? 369 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 2: Well, he started the He was first initially going introduce 370 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 2: a peer review of what the initial detective did or 371 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: didn't do. But when we realized that that that there 372 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 2: was really nothing done and the decision was made, he 373 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: started from scratch. So ten search warrts, they're all public 374 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 2: through the du Bois County court system. 375 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: So he basically found this initial detective wasn't doing much 376 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: of anything. 377 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 2: He didn't, That's correct, he didn't, and. 378 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: That detective had gone to the special prosecutor without doing 379 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: much of anything and basically saying that they she shouldn't 380 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: be filing charges, that she shouldn't be Yes, And again, look, 381 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: you can't say this. 382 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 2: I wasn't. I wasn't there during that conversation, right, Sure, 383 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: that was the outcome. 384 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: And just a timeline on this again for people, you 385 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: got to remember this is what like late summer, fall 386 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: of last year, heading towards fall of last year. 387 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 2: This was in September. 388 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Braun. Braun is the Republican nominee for governor. 389 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: All the poles show he's likely to be the next governor. 390 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: This guy clearly has a very public, high profile relationship 391 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: with the governor. I think you have to just keep 392 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 1: reiterating that as part of this. Okay, so you send 393 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: the pro down, right, you send Jeff here an impeccable reputation. 394 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: He finds, Hey, there's there's. 395 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: A lot here, There's a lot here. And again those 396 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: those charch warrants are all public documents, and I hope 397 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 2: people we'll take a chance to review them. But he 398 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 2: found a very strong likelihood probable cause to believe that yeah, 399 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: theft had theft, perjury, official misconduct, and conflict of interest. 400 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 2: And this was after a comprehensive three month interview again 401 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: with search warrants, data reviews, personal interviews with counsel commissioner, 402 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 2: the matron of the jail, with the sheriff himself, and 403 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 2: an eighty page probable cause AFFI David was established over 404 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 2: the course of this of the investigation itself. 405 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 3: Were you getting updates from Jeff Hearron throughout this process? 406 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: I was by design, Yeah, And again I was taking 407 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 2: a hit over that. People think that I had this 408 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: long standing friendship with Jeff hearn I did not. I've 409 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: known him for thirty five years, but I didn't have 410 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: a personal relationship with him, and frankly, I still don't. 411 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: But we have a in the structure that we have. 412 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 2: We're a pretty structured agency and the tiers of control 413 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 2: are pretty significant. So for a lieutenant to be calling 414 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: me as a superintendent directly is a bit unusual, but 415 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: I've done it many times before with high profile cases, homicides, 416 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: whatever that might be. So Jeff had access to me personally. 417 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure he was protected. Yeah. 418 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: And the other part of this, too is we all 419 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: the time look at stuff. We do this on our 420 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: show every single day. In fact, there's some pretty high 421 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: profile people we're talking about right now where we say 422 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: something appeal is very off with this government official. Can 423 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: someone please step up and look into this. You're doing it. 424 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: You being Doug Carter, the superintendent of State Police, you 425 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: know who this guy is connected to. You see the 426 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: initial investigation or lack thereof. You say, look, the public 427 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: needs to know if there's nothing here, we need to 428 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: send a pro in. This guy finds all sorts of 429 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: stuff and then he goes to the What does he 430 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: does then? Hearing the new investigator, does he go to 431 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: the special parts and go look, this guy wouldn't do 432 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: his job. Here's what we found. 433 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. I actually called the prosecutor and told her why 434 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: we were switching detectives. I called her and I told her, 435 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 2: I said, I'm sorry about this. This is not how 436 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: we do business right. So I'm going to sign a 437 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: guy that just got off the of the a very 438 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: high profile case in Clark County, and I'm gonna have 439 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 2: him take a peek at this. And I when I 440 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 2: talked to Jeff, I say, hey, this is going to 441 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 2: be easy. Boy. Was I wrong? 442 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: So what happens? What happens then? 443 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: So Jeff communicated with with with Holly Huddleston pretty routinely. 444 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: He's got all of the records of that communicate, whether 445 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: that be text messages, emails, uh, his conversations with her 446 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 2: personally always had He had another detective with him or two, 447 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,239 Speaker 2: and she was she was lovely. I mean, she was 448 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 2: very engaging, she was very respectful, very kind. 449 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: Did she give him the impression that at any point 450 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: was she like, well, you're just out in left field 451 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: on this Citi. 452 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 2: Oh No, absolutely not. 453 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 3: No. 454 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 2: Actually, and and maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here, 455 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 2: rob but but uh, Lieutenant Herron reached out to me 456 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: in in November after the primary, after the general election 457 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 2: when Braun becomes the gun he was a governor elect, 458 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: and Jeff said to me, there's much more higher probability 459 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 2: than not that criminal charges will be coming on this case. 460 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: Okay, so I want I want to make sure we 461 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: get through this in the hour. If you're just hitting in. 462 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: Former State Police Superintendent Doug Carter is our guest. We're 463 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: talking about this investigation last year into the du Bois 464 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: County Sheriff Tom Kleinhelter involving public corruption. And okay, so 465 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: you're your detective talks as special prosecutor's giving all signs 466 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 1: of yeah, boy, good job, you know, thanks for doing 467 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: all this, and then there's a period right after the 468 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: election where just nothing happens. 469 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but there's a couple of important details that 470 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 2: led up to nothing happening. And one of them is 471 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: that after this probable cause was established, the kind of 472 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 2: prosecutor read it and wanted Jeff to go back and 473 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,239 Speaker 2: do a little bit more work on the intent. So 474 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: he did. 475 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: Is that normal? 476 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: Very normal? 477 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 3: Oh? 478 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. Back and forth he was. Jeff 479 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 2: would communicate directly with the judges on his search warrants. 480 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: An enormous amount of work was done, enormous amount of work. 481 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: And I called Earl Good, who was Governor Holcombs chief 482 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 2: of staff. He's like a father to me. I loved 483 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 2: him and I miss him dearly. And I said, hey, Earl, 484 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: here's what we're finding out down there again on the 485 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 2: heels of a very high profile case in Clark County 486 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: with no and this is a governor's county, the net 487 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: governor elects county. So I told Earl, I said, I 488 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: really think I need to let him know this. I 489 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: don't know when this is going to happen, but there's 490 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 2: a lot strong likelihood that it will. Knowing he's been 491 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: a very successful candidate, He was very popular in the 492 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 2: du Bois County areas, hugely successful businesses. You're talking about Braun. 493 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: I'm talking about Braun. 494 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: So you said, I need to tell Braun that this 495 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: is going on with this dude. 496 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: Correct. So Earl said, absolutely, I agree with you. So 497 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 2: I called Josh Kelly, his chief of staff, and Josh 498 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 2: and I had a respectful, candid, direct conversation. Didn't last 499 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: very long. He thanked me for letting him know and 500 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 2: that he would let the governor elect know what was happening. 501 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: And we hung up and then radio silence. It wasn't 502 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 2: long after that it was radio silence. 503 00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: Okay. So, because again I want to try to. 504 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 3: Media isles from the prosecutor. 505 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: Jeff was having a hard time getting a hold of her. 506 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: All right, let's take another break. If you're just joining us, 507 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: our guest this hour, former State Police Superintendent Doug Carter. 508 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: We're talking about this investigation into the Duboys County Sheriff 509 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: Tom Kleinhelter like what many people would consider a political alley, 510 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: close political ally of Governor Mike Braun, an investigation about 511 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: misuse of money and a case that went away when 512 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: Governor Braun became the governor. Kennel Casey Show ninety three 513 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: WIBC it Kennell and Casey show a Rob Casey here 514 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: Special Hour Radio. Our guest this hour is former State 515 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: Police Superintendent Doug Carter. We are talking about an investigation 516 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: he helped launch last year into the Duboys County Sheriff 517 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: Thom Kleinhelter involving misuse of public money. Klein Helter, many 518 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: people believe, a close political ally of Governor Mike Braun, 519 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: and a case that despite the fact last year when 520 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: Superintendent Carter was still superintendent, he and the investigator but 521 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: was a very strong case went away once a Superintendent 522 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: Carter stopped being the superintendent of State Police. Governor Braun 523 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: became the governor and put a new person in that 524 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: position first of the year. You say, hey, I've dealt 525 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: with you people long enough. I'm done being the state 526 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: superintendent and I'm gonna go have happiness for once. 527 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: Well, those are your words, certainly not mine. 528 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: And so Braun appoints a new state Police superintendent. He did, 529 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: and on the heels of that, then there comes this announcement. 530 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: Now this is keep mind, we've had silence on this 531 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: case for what appears to be a relative silence for months, 532 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: and then, according to the fourteen news dot com website, 533 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: this was published. At the end of February, it is 534 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: announced that there will be no charges filed against the 535 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: du Boys County Sheriff Tom Klein Helter, What was your 536 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: response that, obviously you're out of the game by the point, 537 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: you're not calling the shots anymore when you heard this announcement. 538 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: I was, I was so disappointed, not in the outcome. Uh, well, 539 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 2: I guess it would have been the outcome because I 540 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: knew the facts that led up to this. So uh 541 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: I ended up calling Holly the Social prosecutor Discounty. Yeah, 542 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 2: I did. But you know something else that I missed here, Rob. 543 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: There there was a meeting with Holly Huddleston and the 544 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 2: initial detective on this case that didn't do any of 545 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 2: the work that you had to replace, and the sheriff 546 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 2: and his attorney to decide whether or not charges would 547 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: come the alleged offender. 548 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: Yes, the client Helter, the Boys County sheriff is at 549 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: a meeting with the state police officer and the prosecutor. 550 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: And the state police officer that didn't do the work 551 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: that Jeff Heron did. 552 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 1: Is that normal? 553 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: No? Absolutely not. It's not normal. The alleged perpetrator and 554 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 2: even and then He was even allowed to put out 555 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: a press release that he was essentially exonerated that I 556 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 2: don't think was completely faction. 557 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: Let's hang on just like this is really important. They 558 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: basically let Clein Helter put out press release telling the 559 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: public he was not going to be charged. 560 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: Yes, it's successible via is online? 561 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: Is that normal? 562 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: No? Absolutely not, It's not normal. I didn't know that occurred. 563 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: I did not know that meeting occurred. And I asked 564 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 2: when I called Holly, she took my call. 565 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 3: When did that meeting occur? 566 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 2: H It was after I left. 567 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: So you have a new superintendent. Radio silence, bronze guy 568 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: gets in there, and then all of a sudden, what 569 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: you feel is a pretty if I'm using the wrong words, 570 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: tell me you feel it's a pretty open and shutcase 571 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: into what's going on with this alleged public corruption with 572 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: the two boys Kenny Sheriff, all of a sudden, not 573 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: only the are no charges filed, he gets to write 574 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: his own press rely saying hey, look at me, I'm 575 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: out of here. 576 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: He even references two state police investigations, which is just 577 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 2: again disingenuous. That's not accurate. 578 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: Yes, that's okay, So. 579 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 2: You're my response was initially sent. I initially sent an 580 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: email or a text message to Anthony Scott, who is 581 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 2: the new superintendent, right and Chris. I think I copied 582 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 2: Chris on that, but he's a number number two guy, 583 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: And I said Anthony something like I'm gladly would share it. 584 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: I can't believe this happened. I'm going to respond to this, 585 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: but I don't want to get ahead of you. Let 586 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: me know what you're going to do to protect and 587 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: defend these deck detectives that work tirelessly on this. 588 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: And this may be a stupid question, but when a 589 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: prosecutor says, I mean no, matter how obvious something is, 590 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: if a prosecutor says no, that's it, or I go home. 591 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 2: Well some would say that I say, that's not the 592 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: way it should be. 593 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I should at least have. 594 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,239 Speaker 2: A sit down, have a conversation about it. But he 595 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 2: was nobody ever contacted Jeff Herron. 596 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: They didn't have a conversation with didn you the main guy? 597 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 2: No, he wasn't even invited to the meeting. 598 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wild. 599 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: He wasn't even invited to the meeting. 600 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 3: So how did he find out the same way everyone 601 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 3: else did? 602 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: He was called by as I understand it, he was 603 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 2: called by the initial detective and told to return klein 604 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: Helter's property. 605 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: Phone, all this stuff. But they were gather evidence from 606 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: So what are you talking about now? Correct me if 607 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: i'm I don't know if you can talk about this 608 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: or not. But there was a lot of communication between 609 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: Clinhelter and Braun that was found. 610 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there were there were messages between the two 611 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 2: of them over this period of time. I didn't find 612 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,719 Speaker 2: that to be necessarily unusual, Okay, but I thought this 613 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 2: could be problematic because of the relationship moving forward. Well, 614 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: we got to stay above it. We've got to stay 615 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: above it. 616 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, So just real quick and then we'll try to 617 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: get this wrapped up. Make sure we get it done 618 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: here in the hour. So if you're just joining us, 619 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: former state please Superintendent Doug Carter is our guest. We'll 620 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: talk about this investigation that took place last year involving 621 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say guy who's pretty close 622 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: with the governor, the du Boys County Sheriff, Tom Kleinhelter. 623 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: You can see the endorsements that are online. He was 624 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: in the I believe he was in the advertisement for 625 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: the governor and this investigation that the former Supertitt Carter 626 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: helped oversee involving alleged public corruption and Tom Kleinhelter what 627 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: he felt his investigator felt was a pretty open and 628 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: shut case, a case that once Doug left and the 629 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: governor pointed a new superintendent magically just kind of went away. 630 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: A lot of red flags involving how it went away. 631 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: And then you talked to the new superintendent and what happened. 632 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: Well, I tried to talk to him, but he wouldn't 633 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 2: talk to me about it. 634 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: Like he wouldn't take your caller. He was like, I'm 635 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: just like no on the phone, Like, what do. 636 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: You mean Everything that I've done, I've done with writing 637 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 2: in writing. Yeah, I tried to have a and I 638 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,959 Speaker 2: love this guy. I was very very close to him. 639 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 2: I don't know what happened. I just don't know what happened. 640 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: But I tried to communicate with him, and now it's 641 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: now it's all in writing to make sure that it's 642 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: true that there's a record of it. But he never 643 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: would acknowledge anything about this case to me ever, never 644 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: asked me any questions about it other than rumor and 645 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: speculation about my relationship with the detective, and that my 646 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 2: dislike for the sheriff. And I don't even know the sheriff. 647 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: I maybe had five conversations with him in my lifetime, 648 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: and many of those conversations were helping him get on 649 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: law enforcement training board as one as one of the board. 650 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: Okay, So the prosecutors then, under somewhat mysterious circumstances, says 651 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: no nothing, everything go home. They order your guy Heron 652 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: to give this sheriff all his stuff back, and then 653 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: they start going after the investigator they did, Jeff Herron, 654 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: And it's sickening. Now keep in mind this is and 655 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: this is the kind of the crescendo of this whole thing, 656 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: because this is very weird. This is a guy who's 657 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: been in law enforcement thirty plus years, super distinguished career, 658 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: was helping lead the Jamie Nole investigation, which was very successful. 659 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: He was at the heart of the Deshaun Reid investigation, 660 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: which was very successful. Like you pointed out, city did 661 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: not burn, there was no rioting. The thorough investigation they 662 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: did was very key. And then they start going after 663 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: him for. 664 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 2: What hundred homicides, school shootings, violent crimes against kids. This 665 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: guy's unbelievable. 666 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, they what are this? And it's his own guys, right, 667 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: the state police start going after him for what? 668 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 2: The superintendent and the colonel started going after him. 669 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: The guy pointed by Braun, correct, Okay, for what. 670 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 2: That's a very good question. It's a very good question. 671 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: But they they they started an internal investigation on him 672 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: that just ended here within the last couple of weeks. 673 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 2: I'm continuing to learn about that. 674 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 3: How does that end? 675 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 2: He got moved to a job that doesn't matter. He 676 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: was suspended for two days. He can't teach anymore. He 677 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: can't teach homicide classes, he can't teach school shooting classes, 678 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 2: he can't teach child crimes against kid classes. I mean, 679 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 2: and it's there's there's zero excuse. I had hundreds of 680 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: disciplinary matters while I was the superintendent, and I never 681 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: did anything because I could. I did everything because I should. 682 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: And Anthony Scott sat in those meetings with me when 683 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 2: we were deciding discipline to talk about what should happen 684 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: If if Jeff did what they've accused him of doing, 685 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 2: and found that he did they thought they think he did, 686 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: it would have been at most a letter of reprimands. 687 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: What do they even think he did. I don't know. 688 00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: He sent and he sent an email to the process 689 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 2: getting attorney that I have a copy of, and it 690 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 2: did much kinder that I would have written. And it 691 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 2: basically says, why did you do this? Why did you 692 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: have this meeting without me? And come to this conclusion? 693 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 2: Our relationships are important? I'm fair phrasing because this four 694 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 2: or five paragraphs long. Sure, I would really like to 695 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 2: sit down with you. And I have had prosecutors before, 696 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 2: not file and it doesn't upset me. But I want 697 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 2: to know what we need to do to be better? 698 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 2: What'd we do wrong? And he got demoted for that. 699 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 2: He didn't get demoted, but he got reassigned. Reassigned, Okay, yes, 700 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 2: because they said it was disrespectful. There's nothing disrespectful about 701 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,720 Speaker 2: this letter. And it should terrify every single state police 702 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 2: officer in Indiana to think that's the bar of how 703 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 2: we can talk and treat people. 704 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, because and then I asked you this, and you know, 705 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: like my old man was in law, federal law enforcement 706 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: for twenty years. He worked for federal judges. Obviously they 707 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: were the boss, right, you'd never questioned the judges whatever? Yes, yes, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am, whatever, 708 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: But the state Police don't work for a prosecutor. You're 709 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 1: entitled to ask, hey, we thought this was an open 710 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: set case, and you seem to be on board with 711 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: us the whole time. 712 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 2: You were helping me all along. 713 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: And then Braun becomes the governor and all of a sudden, 714 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: this all goes away. 715 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 2: What happened, That's what he wanted to know, That's all 716 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: he wanted to know. They said he made derogatory comments 717 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: about the initial detective. All he did was say the truth, 718 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 2: tell the truth about what the initial detective didn't do, 719 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 2: and he documented it as he should as a part 720 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 2: of the criminal proceeding. And then the lastly that he 721 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 2: shared law enforcement information with people outside of the outside 722 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 2: of the ISP, and those are the county commissioners and 723 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 2: council into Boise County that he had to work with 724 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 2: to develop his probable cause. 725 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: It sounds like we just got a couple minutes left, 726 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: because iain, I want to make sure we get the 727 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: full hour. It sounds like the public should be outraged 728 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: about this. 729 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: They absolutely should, and the State Police is better than this. 730 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 2: We should be above all of this. And he's got 731 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 2: some questions to answer. 732 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,439 Speaker 1: So let me kind of sum this up because people 733 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: will hear this on podcasts. They will be able to 734 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: listen linearly some people have been coming and going throughout 735 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: the course of the interview. If I missed anything from 736 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: your perspective, you tell me, then I'm gonna give you 737 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: the final word on something. So basically the track record 738 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: of the case is this. An independent group, the State 739 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 1: Board of Accounts catches what they believe are, for lack 740 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: of a better term, bad expenditures by the Dubois County 741 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: Sheriff related for money from the commissary. They feel strong 742 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: enough about it they give it to you guys at 743 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: State Police. You look at it and agree, hey, this 744 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: looks really bad. You ultimately end up putting one of 745 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: your best guys on it. He looks at it and says, yeah, 746 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: that looks really bad. He recommends that this special prosecutor 747 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: file these charges based on this. The special prosecutor appears 748 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: to be completely on board until Mike Braun becomes the 749 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: governor Braun, who clearly has some sort of relationship with 750 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: this guy. And then all of a sudden, once you're 751 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: no longer the state superintendent and Braun is the governor. 752 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 1: Then magically all the charges go away, and you're a 753 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: guy who is investigating the case gets in trouble. 754 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 2: They ruined his career, Rob They've ruined They've ruined his career. 755 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 2: After an eighty page probable cause Affidavid, there are most 756 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 2: detectives that will go career never write one half that long. 757 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 2: This is eighty pages of facts. Eighty pages of facts. 758 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: And in case. The frustrating thing here is we beg 759 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: people to investigate public corruption. We beg people to step 760 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: up and do something. And we're talking about this with 761 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: some pretty prominent people right now in this state that 762 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: are in prominent positions. And he does it, he being 763 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: Doug Carter, and he puts his best guy on it, 764 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: or one of his best guys, and he says, yeah, 765 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: it's here, and then all of a sudden, with no explanation, 766 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: it all just goes away. 767 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 3: Doug, you said something earlier, you said he's got some 768 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 3: questions to answer. Who is he? 769 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: Well, I'm I make I came to some conclusions based 770 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 2: on what I know, And a logical conclusion would with 771 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 2: anybody that reads this or sees it or hears it, 772 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 2: would be that there was some level of interference someplace 773 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 2: by either those in the governor's orbit that appoint the 774 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 2: superintendent of the State Police, or between the State Police Alliance. 775 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 2: They were working very close with the alliance, and now 776 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 2: the leadership of the State Police came from the alliance. 777 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 2: So and I know that they've been talking about this 778 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 2: for months in the end of twenty twenty four. I 779 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 2: didn't know it at the time. And that's okay, not 780 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 2: mad about that is somebody in those orbits talked about this. 781 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: That's the that's the only logical conclusion, and it's irrefutable. 782 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 2: It is irrefutable that there wasn't somebody that said stop it, stop. 783 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: It if you were and we'll get you out of 784 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: here on this, if you were still the state superintendent 785 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: and or Mike Brown was not the governor. Do you 786 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: believe this case was strong enough that this I would 787 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: have been prosecuted. Doug. I want to thank you for 788 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: coming in and doing this today, because this is the 789 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: thing we begged the public for and you don't have 790 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: any reason to have to do this. It doesn't affect 791 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: you one way or another other than you want the truth. 792 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: And these are the sort of stories people need to 793 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: know about and your reputation is above reproach. And we 794 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: joked the first time we met. I said I've been 795 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: pretty mean to you on the air, and he said, 796 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: I don't care about that. You're just doing your job. So, man, 797 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: thank you for coming in and telling us about this today. Yeah, absolutely, this. 798 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 2: Is really important to me. Again, I want to remind 799 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 2: your listeners, this is about the top two or three 800 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 2: people on the ISP that were appointed by the governor. 801 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,399 Speaker 2: This is not about the rank and file. I'm very, 802 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 2: very worried about them. If this is a bar they 803 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 2: going to set to ruin careers, they should be terrified. 804 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 2: Jeff Herron might have to go out and raise money 805 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 2: to defend himself and that is just absolutely unconscionable to me. 806 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 2: So a time that I loved Anthony Scott and we 807 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 2: were together a long time, I have no idea who 808 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 2: he is today. And if I was the governor, if 809 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 2: there's nothing to this, I would be asking him to 810 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 2: answer to compelling him to answer some of these questions 811 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 2: about why that happened. And it's so painful for me 812 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 2: to say that, but it's just it's the reality of 813 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: the difference between right and wrong in a world in 814 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 2: which we live that's so complicated, so convoluted, and fingers 815 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 2: being pointed that this is one of those that's very simple. 816 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 2: Either they did or they didn't, and if they, if they, 817 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 2: if they, if they did, then answer these propelling questions. 818 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 2: But they ruined somebody along the way, and it's unforgivable. 819 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Doug, thank you for your time, man, thanks for 820 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: telling the story, and you're welcome back anytime. 821 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. 822 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 3: It is Kendall and Casey. It's ninety three WIBC.